Health effects of Epoxy

[nickvonw]

Gday

I have been reading about the use of Epoxy in amatuer boat construction and have read some stories about builders who have had adverse reactions to Expoxy during the build process.

Does anybody have any first hand accounts of using epoxy and having a reaction to it??

What precautions should be made with using the epoxys???

Are there similar porblems associated with the use of polyester and vinylester???

Any info would be great

cheers

Nick:confused::r:):?:

[bernd1972]

Concerning polyesther, well the styrol fumes ate noz reallly good either.
Epoxy requires some care with work safety. Allways wear vinyl gloves, avoid skin contact. allways wear a good dust mask when sanding. Once you developed a allergic sensitivity you are out of the game.

[bntii]

Does anybody have any first hand accounts of using epoxy and having a reaction to it??

I have never had a problem

What precautions should be made with using the epoxys???



Don't take a bath in it....

If you are one of those persons who has an allergy it may be tough to use epoxies professionally and never become sensitized.
All users should just keep the goo off their skin and mind grinding any green epoxies.

The best way to manage exposure is through good systematic approaches to your glass work. Don't get in those situations where the job becomes a battle and one of the casualties is the goo spread far and wide including all over the worker...
Don't scratch your nose with gloved hands when doing layups- :p

You haven't seen funny till you see a guy turn around to grab a roller and have a whole sheet of epoxy soaked fabric peel off a hull and drape over the poor sod.
Try to keep this from happening and you will be ahead of the game

[Herman]

Some basics:

In general, the amines are causing most trouble. Try and source an epoxy that is known to be more friendly to people, if you are concerned.

Avoid all contact with epoxy. Use protective clothing if things might get messy, and ALWAYS use gloves. The only suitable gloves for epoxy are nitrile gloves, which usually are twice the cost of latex gloves. (what is the price of your health?). Latex or vinyl gloves are not suitable. For large projects, you could get some neoprene gloves as well. These are thicker, thus stronger.

If you spill epoxy on your skin, immediately wash with plenty of water and soap, or vinegar. DO NOT USE SOLVENTS to wash your skin. This will immediately transfer the material into your skin and bloodstream. You can test this with the "onion test". Cut an onion in half, and place the cut side on top of your hand. What do you taste? Nothing. Now do the same, but first wet the top of your hand with acetone. What do you taste? Onion...

Try and ventilate. Most more friendly epoxy resins do not fume (much) but no-one got killed because of some fresh air.

Oh, and rules, regulations and law do not replace common sense...

[CatBuilder]

Herman is right on.

I was initially concerned with using epoxy, but after having used it for several months (daily, 7 days a week or so), I am quite content with the stuff.

Just do everything you can to keep it off your skin and ventilate when it is curing. Wear a respirator when applying. You shouldn't smell it at all if your respirator is working.

One major thing is your clothing and shoes. Don't wear the same shoes and clothing you worked in epoxy with back into the house. It will get everywhere.

Just be very neat with the stuff. That's the key to avoiding health effects.

Also, I have noticed large differences in "toxicity" between various epoxies, even within the same manufacturer.

For toxic epoxy, get a batch of 5 minute epoxy from the local hardware store, mix that up and apply it to something. That smell is terrible and seems pretty toxic.

Most of the name brand epoxies in the USA are formulated to be easy on people. I use System Three. Even within System Three, the General Purpose is a little more pungent than the Silver Tip. System Three fast hardener makes it the worst. Gasses off a lot.

Silver Tip... I have swam in it and it didn't even bother my skin at all while the General Purpose made me itch a little from irritation.

Don't be too nervous. With clean work, you should not develop an allergy because it takes exposure to develop an allergy.

I read this somewhere:

Everyone will become allergic to epoxy at some point. Each person has a certain number of hours of skin contact before they become allergic. No person knows how many hours it will take them, so the best practice is to just avoid all skin contact.

Nitrile gloves are the BEST. I gladly pay extra for them because they not only protect better, they also last much longer, so they end up being cheaper in the long run.

The hardener (amines) are the worst part... caustic and will cause immediate itching and redness on the skin. The resin is fairly tame and doesn't seem to cause any problem on my skin.

Oh and one thing to always remember is to step into a full roller tray of epoxy as you start each lamination. Step right into the middle of the pool of epoxy and then trip a little to flip the roller tray over your foot, soaking your protective pants and your shoes, making a big puddle on the floor. If you do it right the roller tray should end up upside down with no epoxy left in it. I seem to do this each time I start laminating a new hull. The laminations come out beautifully when I do this, so it seems to be the secret trick. :)

[hoytedow]

As for the gloves; latex gloves are also career enders. One fine doctor I had the privilege of working with(as a medical records coder) developed a severe allergy to latex gloves. He switched his practise to anesthesiology but had problems with his hands from then on. He could only wear the nitrile gloves until his retirement.

[michael pierzga]

Herman is correct.


Take proper precautions and most people have no problem...

TAKE PRECAUTIONS . They are written in every epoxy use manual. Be particularly careful with green..week old epoxy residue...dust. .

[ecflyer]

I thought I was being careful w/epoxy but in the end I discovered I was not careful enough. I used nitrile gloves and wore reg blue jeans and tennis (rubber) shoes. Occaisionally I would drip a spot of epoxy on my jeans and did not notice so the glue hardened into the jeans cloth. After working with it for a year I had to fair out my hull and being in a hurry, I applied epoxy one day and sanded it down the next w/o wearing a dust mask. I believe this is what done me in. My whole body broke out in a severe red rash very similar to poison Ivy rash. The itch was unbearable. I stayed away from epoxy for 2 weeks and the rash went away. After that I was much more careful working with the stuff. I wore a haz-mat suit along with my nitrile gloves but no respirator. There are no fumes (zero) with West System epoxies. I waited for the full 2 weeks cure time before sanding epoxy and wore no dust mask. Fully cured epoxy is not toxic at all. I did not wear nitrile gloves when sanding. If I got any sanding dust on my hands, I washed it off w/soap & water witin 5 minutes. I have been working this way full time for 4 additional years with no futher episodes of toxic exposure. I have now completed my 50' sailing yacht and will be launching in approx 6 weeks. At the end of the day I would say do not fear epoxy; just respect it and it will leave you work in peace.
Have a Spiffy G'Day
Earl

[CatBuilder]

I will also add that you need to be very careful of foam cores.

While trying to learn about thermoforming and trying different techniques of heating foam, I crisped some of it.

I had no idea the foam gave off hydrogen cyanide when overheated. I suddenly felt very ill and went to the emergency room. They hooked me up to all the machines and had to keep me overnight while treating my 120BPM heart rate and severely acidic blood. I couldn't eat, my entire digestive tract purged and it cost me a fortune.

It was a horrible experience. So remember... foam can be much more deadly than epoxy is a nuisance.

Be even more careful with foam.

[Hägar]

I thought I was being careful w/epoxy but in the end I discovered I was not careful enough. I used nitrile gloves and wore reg blue jeans and tennis (rubber) shoes. Occaisionally I would drip a spot of epoxy on my jeans and did not notice so the glue hardened into the jeans cloth. After working with it for a year I had to fair out my hull and being in a hurry, I applied epoxy one day and sanded it down the next w/o wearing a dust mask. I believe this is what done me in. My whole body broke out in a severe red rash very similar to poison Ivy rash. The itch was unbearable. I stayed away from epoxy for 2 weeks and the rash went away. After that I was much more careful working with the stuff. I wore a haz-mat suit along with my nitrile gloves but no respirator. There are no fumes (zero) with West System epoxies. I waited for the full 2 weeks cure time before sanding epoxy and wore no dust mask. Fully cured epoxy is not toxic at all. I did not wear nitrile gloves when sanding. If I got any sanding dust on my hands, I washed it off w/soap & water witin 5 minutes. I have been working this way full time for 4 additional years with no futher episodes of toxic exposure. I have now completed my 50' sailing yacht and will be launching in approx 6 weeks. At the end of the day I would say do not fear epoxy; just respect it and it will leave you work in peace.
Have a Spiffy G'Day
Earl

What a utter nonsense!

West is just a brand and delivers several completely different "tastes" of stuff. If you bath in any West hardener, be sure you will get a "positive" result after a while.

Wearing no dust mask while sanding shows that you are a complete idiot! Is the dust improving your weak health?
So, what are we learning from your elaborations?
Nothing

Epoxy resin is completely harmless once cured. The majority of resins available to the homebuilder are relatively harmless even when you bath in it.
Almost all hardeners (curing agents) cause allergic reactions when one has a skin contact, avoid that by ALLL means.

Spiffy good day?

Hägar

[AndrewK]

1. Most people are not sensitive to epoxy.
2. Many will develop a sensitivity with time, for some it may be 20 years, some only a couple of exposures and the unlucky few will get hospitalised after a single exposure.
So before you commit to a project test your self.
3. It is not true that there are zero fumes with epoxies, only that there are no solvent fumes. A common mistake when trying to deal with high humidity is to work inside a plastic tent.
4. Fully cured epoxy is not toxic, but it is impossible to have 100% cure. Depending on the formulation, cure conditions and accuracy of proportioning the components you may only have 90 - 95% conversion rate. So when sanding there will always be some unreacted components in the dust.

[Herman]

Andrew:

1. Correct. The funny thing is that native African people (Negroides) usually are far more sensitive than Kaukasian people. We found that out in the epoxy flooring industry. It was hard to keep Negroide people, for the effect on their skin. (and no, this is not an attempt to discriminate)

3. Correct. It must be said that epoxy resins basicly designed for flooring develop much less fumes. It is not nice if a 10.000 m2 (100.000 sqft) fresh epoxy floor starts fuming...
Also the industry is cutting on nasty chemicals, like nonyl phenol.

4. True. Protect yourself at all times. Try and work with dust extraction at all times, and wear masks.

If you do not like masks, buy a full face mask with air supply. This keeps a fresh breeze over your face, so transpiration is less problematic as well. There are units for compressors, or with battery powered air pump with filters, which can be carried on your belt. You might look stupid, but in the end you are a winner.

http://www.bvanmiddendorp.nl/images/stories/abverhuur/asbest-mat/Volgelaatmasker.jpg

[Frosty]

So many posts agreeing on the safety of using epoxy and not to bathe in it. As I read along I felt sure that some one would actually mention even in some small way what the effects of epoxy allergy would be.

I do grind without a mask and I get it on my skin too --because I dont wear gloves. Being a blithering idiot you see I have had no --well side effects or back aches ---what ever it is your supposed to get.

However the point is, is not to go on and on agreeing about the safety of it as above but what do you get if your allergic to it.

Teeth drop out ,swollen nipples, itchy knob, hair loss, descending testicles what---?

[bntii]

Contact dermatitis.




AND descending testicles...

[hoytedow]

...and contact dementia. :p

[Fanie]

2. Many will develop a sensitivity with time, for some it may be 20 years, some only a couple of exposures and the unlucky few will get hospitalised after a single exposure.
So before you commit to a project test your self.

No need to do any tests ! My friends are ALL very allergic ro resin or any kind of fiberglass work, even though they have never been exposed to it.
When they do get exposed, then immediately their teeth drop out ,swollen nipples, itchy knob, hair loss, descending testicles :D

Seriously, just me talking about fiberglass and they start scratching already. There must be something wrong with me but I don't even itch working the stuff. Must be in the head. Too dumb to itch :D

[nukisen]

Please listen to Herman because he is a professional in this.
If you didnt figure it out he is a top seller in this category. And then also he does have very good knowledge about this.

Hermans words is the one i trust most of them all!
Cheers!!

[AndrewK]

For the majority, the ones that develop sensitivity over long term exposure the symptom that shows is dermatitis. Mostly on the hands and is extremely itchy and you lose lots of layers of skin.
The ones in the middle (few exposures) will get a severe rash all over their bodies and does not have to be through skin contact. The fumes will effect and get absorbed through mucus membranes. Eyes, nose, throat, lungs.
The very unlucky not sure but so sick they need hospital treatment.

The alternatives to epoxy, VE & PE resins are also no good for you. And provided you have lots of flow through ventilation to get rid of the styrene fumes the health effects are less severe.

[Frosty]

I gather then that most symptoms are actually skin related,--no internal effects, vertigo, loss of appetite, etc.

Is nausea one of them? the reason I asked is --well ive not been feeling well lately and I thought I might have had a bit of food poisoning but then I have been doing some epoxy work but only a little bit like sticking some ribs in my dinghy to attach some oar locks, and I work outside.

So teeth falling out, swollen nipples , hair loss and descending testicles would be normal ageing then?

[peter radclyffe]

soak yourself in olive oil before use

[peter radclyffe]

i used west for 25 years, ok, then i used Dieci 10.10 an italian aggresive epoxy, just like the italians
then i got sensitised

[CatBuilder]

The acidic oils are a good tip. If I clean with vinegar, then clean some more, but still itch, I put coconut oil on and it stops the itching, neutralizing the hardener, which is the bad part.

[nickvonw]

well it looks like its not rocket science just limit your exposure and take proper precautions

so i guess being a nudist boat builder is out of the question

thanks for all the imput

cheerss

nick

[hoytedow]

You won't find it "a'peeling"!

[Frosty]

For some one like me that can eat nuts and bolt I find it strange that someone can be affected by even being near something. Cats for instance. Sea food (my favourite) can not be tolerated by some.

There seems to be no limit to the allergies some people can be affected by.

To eat something as seafood and be thrown into vomiting fits is unbelievable to a bomb proof person as myself and I have to take hold and not say things like "pull yourself together man --its only a shrimp"

Epoxy ? well I don't get it, infact my lap top has got a bit on it as I type.

Allergic to work perhaps --the psychological horror of getting up at 7 and scraping ice off the windscreen on a cold rainy dark January morning --now mix that thought with the smell of epoxy and boy I would come up in shivers just by the smell of it.

[Herman]

For people that are not affected indeed it can be quite astonishing. Allergic reactions can do strange things to people.

I once had a dog that got killed by a single sting of a wasp. Normal reaction is a bit of pain, which decreases in the next 5 minutes. Not with the dog, that suffered severe internal bleeding from just the sting.
I know of a customer that is allergic to latex in such an extent that his skin starts bleeding as soon as he puts a latex glove on. Without even opening a can of epoxy or polyester... He was extremely happy when I gave him nitril gloves. I also now understand why he has 20 children... :)

As for polyesters: There actually have been more research on the effects of polyesters (mainly on styrene, which is what evaporates from polyester, usually some 5-9 percent by weight.) Although results of research programs is not completely clear, and some results are contradicting each other, styrene still is a product that cannot be totally cleared from causing cancer. It might only affect some people that somehow are more prone to this, but still, protection is your best option.

Personally I lose my smell when working with polyester. It takes at least 2 weeks before getting it back.

What can be done by the users:
-protect yourself. I have already told how, and every well thinking person already knew anyhow.

What can be done by employers:
-protect your workers. Educate them in using personal protection, and make it available. Ask your supplier to do a presentation on personal protection. I still have to come across a supplier that is NOT willing to do this.
-invest in the working space. Get good ventilation, install styrene suppresant spray units (a spray that bonds to styrene, making it harmless), invest in low styrene emitting materials (DCPD resins, LSE additives, AAP peroxides instead of MEKP), equipment (HVLP guns) or change to lower styrene emitting techniques (RTM, RTM Light, resin infusion).

What can be done by the industry:
The industry is not doing nothing. In contrary. Styrene content in polyester resins has gone down a lot the last decade. There are even some zero-styrene resins in the market (though at a cost).
Epoxy producers are slowly abandoning some harmful ingredients, like nonylphenol. Ask your supplier. I must admit that epoxy producers mostly produce for "non contact" processes in various industries. Therefore the pressure to do more for users is less, unfortunately. Still I have seen a lot of development on skipping many toxic materials, even if this meant that some very interesting curing agents got lost. (remember the good old days when DPTA curing agent, sometimes retarded by for instance Jeffamine D-230, gave a very low viscous mixture, which cured to a high Tg without postcure. DPTA is gone now...)

You might say that none of the suggestions I made is making a big difference. So true. But every step helps, and implementing as much suggestions as possible WILL make a difference.

----
Then there is the matter of bio-materials. Although it is still early in development, there are many materials being developed which look promising. I will just mention 2:

-Acrylic One
An acrylic resin, mixed with a modified gypsum, which cures to a hard but non brittle material. Although not suitable for boats, it is used in many other fields, like the building industry, art, tooling, and many more.
It is flame retardant, safe to use (even without protection), zero shrinkage, and can be made in various colours or surface effects, even bronze or (corroded) steel.

-Combiolite resin
A non hazardous resin which cures at 80 degrees C. There is shrinkage, and a small amount of water must evaporate. So far there is no gelcoat available, which makes it harder to use for visual applications, but many othere parts can be done in this material. It is available in hand laminating resin, infusion resin and prepreg (with flax)

And for fibers: flax looks promising, and many weavers are developing styles that can be used in manual processes.

Also keep in mind that environmental permits are not needed for storing or using these materials, which can save some headaches...

[Frosty]

Hmmm very interesting, what looked like the material of the future is already in the past.

Its all very well making material that is harmless but if it does'nt do the job, or even as well then its not a step forward.

Changing the entire boat yard at great expense so Joe can keep his job is hardly a step in the right direction either.

[Herman]

I do not agree.

First of all, changing the boat yard? I know that you are in Thailand, and employees are throw away people, but even there providing adequate ventilation, buying LSE resins (which are not more expensive) and providing the safety equipment that you can find in the material safety datasheets is the least you can (and should) do.

About new materials: When the first polyesters were made, they probably were not as good as today, or even as good as other materials. But you need to start somewhere. If no-one started something new, we would all be swinging in trees, eating bananas.

Materials, new or old, have a certain set of properties, including mechanical but also environmental and health properties. It is up to the end user to decide on which properties are most important for him.

[hoytedow]

http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/hlthef/epichlor.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQXVHITd1N4

[Frosty]

I do not agree.

First of all, changing the boat yard? I know that you are in Thailand, and employees are throw away people,

Thank you -- i'le move on now.

[Hägar]

Thank you -- i'le move on now.


...moving far on would probably help?

[Frosty]

Hey Horrible not your business, your 2 weeks too late. Duh!

[nukisen]

Now my friends I have experience from epoxy hardener and resins effect.
As I am one of the stupid kind and not very careful i did recognise small red spots on top of my hands and they also a bit itchy.
Mr radcliffes suggestion about the olive oil also works as I think the epoxy is stay outside the skin a little bit more.
No spots no itch.
Thank you Peter!

[peter radclyffe]

ok,good

[kroberts]

FWIW, you can just about ignore every post made to this thread.

I had been going through all sorts of extra precautions based on word of mouth effects of various chemicals associated with epoxy and fiberglass. Then I started actually reading the manufacturer's safety data sheet for each product I used, and I was astonished as to what word-of-mouth had in common with fact: Almost nothing. And that went both ways.

So look at your containers of chemicals, at your fiberglass, thinners, whatever, and then go to the manufacturer's web site and get all pertinent data sheets about them, and read. They're usually just about 2 pages each, and they will dispel a whole lot of pure myths and maybe even tell you about something to worry about which word-of-mouth seems to ignore.

IMO some of the horror stories I had heard about epoxy probably had nothing to do with that, and probably a lot more to do with something entirely unrelated, like cleaning engine parts in the solvent tank with no gloves or maybe huffing gasoline for fun and recreation.

[nukisen]

Nice that you do tell us about this krobert.
As I told before, actually when Herman answered to this thread it was exactly the same as go to a reseller. Because as I told before Herman is a professional regarding this.

Also he is a reseller, so I am convinced that the fact he was given to us comes direct from this datasheet you were talking about. Maybe not the exact words but very close as I think he does almost have this data inside his mind. Then I think this discussion is much more fun then only read a sheat. :)

[CatBuilder]

I don't know, Ken.

The spirit of your post makes a lot of sense. I always check the MSDS, too since I got cyanide poisoning from overheating foam. I agree with reading the MSDS.

However, to say one should ignore this entire thread doesn't quite sit right with me.

For instance: If you were to ignore the thread, you might not understand that the hardener is a strong base and is most safely cleaned up with acetic acid (vinegar). This is a word of mouth thing you don't find on any MSDS sheet.

Using acidic oils like olive oil (YEOWCH! EXPENSIVE!!), canola oil or coconut oil for a pre-epoxy session barrier coat is also word of mouth.

Using nitrile gloves vs. latex - again, word of mouth.

I'd say there is quite a bit of useful information here.

FWIW, you can just about ignore every post made to this thread.

I had been going through all sorts of extra precautions based on word of mouth effects of various chemicals associated with epoxy and fiberglass. Then I started actually reading the manufacturer's safety data sheet for each product I used, and I was astonished as to what word-of-mouth had in common with fact: Almost nothing. And that went both ways.

So look at your containers of chemicals, at your fiberglass, thinners, whatever, and then go to the manufacturer's web site and get all pertinent data sheets about them, and read. They're usually just about 2 pages each, and they will dispel a whole lot of pure myths and maybe even tell you about something to worry about which word-of-mouth seems to ignore.

IMO some of the horror stories I had heard about epoxy probably had nothing to do with that, and probably a lot more to do with something entirely unrelated, like cleaning engine parts in the solvent tank with no gloves or maybe huffing gasoline for fun and recreation.

[nukisen]

I have to admit I love the citation from your wife. Also almost my wife say the same hehe.

[kroberts]

Maybe my choice of words was poor.

I'm not saying that people's experience with dealing with chemicals has no value. I'm saying that when you're worried about the health effects of epoxy, you should look first at the MSDS and then consider the word of mouth in that light.

The wording of the original post led me to believe that the OP was looking for word-of-mouth only, not intending to see the data sheets at all. My experience with amateur hovercraft building over the last decade and a half leads me to believe that people who make posts like that, or ask questions like that in person, don't intend to look at an MSDS or perhaps don't even know what one is.

FWIW I used to be in that group who thought that sort of thing was for engineers and had no relevance to me since I probably couldn't understand the wording anyway. Then I saw one and realized that it's something anyone with a high school education can understand.

[nukisen]

Yes Now I understand your comment a little bit more kroberts.
And yes actually the health warnings is important and must be able to understand for the users. Else it is very easy to get someones health on the neck for the resin developer or the seller. Able to become an expensive story.

Still I am using Peters advice with the oliveoil and used this method today. Maybe I would be more careful if I would use this every day. Maybe I should handle this epoxy with more care anyway. But my spots is gone since I started to use this mix.

[TeddyDiver]

The wording of the original post led me to believe that the OP was looking for word-of-mouth only, not intending to see the data sheets at all.
What data sheets don't tell is how many of us may have some healthy issues with epoxies, neither how severe they can be.
So far I'm ok.. (fingers crossed)

[kroberts]

Agreed, before I started getting careful I had glass fibers floating around in the air, spilled epoxy in my clothes, on my skin, everywhere the drops would land, and I just left it all there. Went through a lot of clothes, then started noticing irritation where the epoxy had hit, and definite irritation where there was contact with the glass. Wear some gloves, learn how to work glass and learn not to spill epoxy all over everything and wear a face mask, and it all goes away.

At least until you start sanding.

[nukisen]

Hahaha Maybe we have figured out why most of us boatbuilders are totally snowbounded. haha