Bamboo

[Detailman]

I see this question raised time and time again. Being one of the most renewable sources of wood, is bamboo a viable boat building material? I hear it is not very rot resistant. Any thoughts on this?

Wow! I see this has come up in discussion a few times...sorry...

[rasorinc]

I love bamboo but it is not a boat building material it is a grass. So put it out of your mind except for interior decor

[PAR]

Yep, great stuff if used a laminate flooring on the wheelhouse sole, but don't get too excited about a new cheap planking or structural element material.

[gonzo]

I've seen it used for spars with success.

[timo]

It has very high tensile and compressive strength. It supposedly has a higher strength to weight ratio than graphite. I don't think its strength is very uniform though - so it will probly fail in dealing with multi-directional forces. Im sure the material has been intensivley explored - processing methods and so on to deal with issues such as rot and increasing structural strength. But you never really hear about the formal, fact based outcomes of engineering or scientific studies. Why is this? It appers like a potential super material.

[PAR]

It has been tested and it's not a super material. There are several sources for its physical properties.

You may find what you need in these texts:

"Building with Bamboo"; Jules J.A. Janssen, London: Intermediate Technology Publications, 2nd ed. 1995

"Mechanical Properties of Bamboo" by JA Janssen, Kluwer Academic Pub., 1991

"European Journal of Wood and Wood Products"; Physical and Mechanical Properties of Oriented Strand Lumber Made from an Asian Bamboo; Pannipa Malanit et. al.; 2011

"Forest Products Journal"; Effect of Moisture Content and Density on the Mechanical Properties of Veneer-Bamboo Zephyr Composites; Jeang-Kwan Roh et. al.; March, 2009

"Modern Bamboo Structures"; Status and Future of the Wood-Bamboo Composite Panel Industry in China; H. Q. Ren et. al.; 2008

"Journal of Wood Science"; Effect of Board Density and Layer Structure on the Mechanical Properties of Bamboo Oriented Strandboard; Ihak Sumardi et. al.; 2007

"Challenges for Science and Engineering in the 21st Century"; How Does It Work, Bamboo-Based Waferboard; Hong-Jian Zhang; 2000

Naturally, these aren't the only references on the subject, but will offer an overview and physical properties assessment. You may also wish to refine the sub species of bamboo as there are several.

[hoytedow]

As gonzo says, it is great for light weight spars on small boats for small sails(I grow Oldhami species). This book tells how to preserve it with copper sulfate.:

[sailingharry]

Yep, great stuff if used a laminate flooring on the wheelhouse sole, but don't get too excited about a new cheap planking or structural element material.

PAR,

Your comment hits directly on my current project. I have a 34' sailboat with a plywood cabin sole, that is rotted out. I'm seriosly considering replacing the sole with bamboo flooring. The manufacturers all scream "NO, IT'S A WOOD PRODUCT!" --- but so is plywood. Some of the bamboo flooring, especially the strand type, seems to be exceedingly appropriate for the high moisture of the inside of a boat (not outside, of course). This randomly selected product:
http://floorsbybluewater.com/hardwood-flooring/teragren-bamboo-flooring-synergy-strand-woven-java.html?___store=default
is the kind of thing I'm referring to. From what I can tell, it is essentially a fiber/adhesive composite, not unilike a fiberglass boat. There is no ply, core, laminate, or any other element that can absorb moisure. And from what I understand, it is much more dimensionally stable than hardwoods.

Can you comment on the use of a product like this as a cabin sole material? And does anyone have any experience with how slippery those pre-applied finishses are?

Thanks

Harry

[PAR]

I have no experience with the BlueWater product and they didn't seem to list an MDS or other detailed physical properties sheet, so commenting is difficult. They use marketing words, like syngery and teragren, but don't bother to describe what these terms mean, even if the site is searched for the terms. What I saw was advertising fluff and precious little substance, such as the adhesive certification or tests passed, let alone composition. I suspect it's a polyester or polyurethane composite, though it could be a low emission phenol (who knows), but this is a guess no thanks to their site. Also there was no mention of outdoor use or the marine environment, which suggests it might not be the best choice here. I suspect it's also quite heavy too.

[rasorinc]

I agree with Par. I have personally contacked 6 suppliers of bamboo products and not one could tell me if water proof adhesive was used nor could they give me a name of the adhesive. All stuff was made in China so run away from it--it may be toxic.........

[gonzo]

Bamboo fishing rods have been around for about 130 years or so. They were laminated.

[sailingharry]

PAR,

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear on why I linked in that product -- it was only a quickly grabbed link to a representative product. There are a very large number of purveyors of substantially similar bamboo flooring products, and I was trying to convey a typical product.

As I conveyed in my original post, they not only don't suggest marine or outdoor use, when asked they universally recommended against it. The reason, however, does not sit well. The general idea is that bamboo flooring is a wood-like product and therefore not acceptable. However, any other product, such as teak and holly plywood, is also a wood product.

My gut feeling is that the objection is a corporate reaction to something other than their normal market. I suspect the glue the flooring is manufactured from is moisture proof (I didn't say "waterproof" but I'm not looking to immerse my floor, be it teak and holly or bamboo), as most glues these days are moisture or water proof. The strand woven product that I linked to is less a strip type flooring (like the vertical cut bamboo), and more like a fiber reinforced plastic, making it appear more moisture resistant.

The reason I asked the question, is that you had specifically commented on the use of bamboo flooring in a pilothouse. This is very similar to the application on the cabin sole that I want to do. I was hoping you had real-world experience on how a laminated bamboo product would hold up in a non-structural, semi-cosmetic application such as a flooring product, and could comment on the pros and cons of how that worked out.

I've heard a lot of negatives from a lot of folks, and perhaps I'm being stubborn for pursuing this. However, I've also not heard a single person in my searches who has said they have tried it to their regret. I'm also frustrated by the options available -- there is teak and holly plywood with it's notoriously thin veneers and questionable glues, there are various vinyl or plastic imitations, or there is real teak and holly at a phenomenal price tag, both labor and material. I am trying to find a product that is at least as good as teak and holly plywood, that looks as good and perhaps "different" than the norm, and is not more than double the price tag. Bamboo strikes me as a possible alternative.

Thanks,

Harry

[sailingharry]

Bamboo fishing rods have been around for about 130 years or so. They were laminated.

Bingo! I wouldn't leave my fine bamboo fishing rod strapped to my car roof rack for the summer, but I also wouldn't mind using it on a rainy day. And it was ancient when I inherited it in the 70's, so I suspect glues have improved since then.

Harry

[sailingharry]

I agree with Par. I have personally contacked 6 suppliers of bamboo products and not one could tell me if water proof adhesive was used nor could they give me a name of the adhesive. All stuff was made in China so run away from it--it may be toxic.........

Your experience with the vendors is similar to mine. I'm not terribly worried about the material being possibly toxic, since this stuff is being installed in houses and offices all over the country, and on a boat there is less product and more ventilation.

It sure would be nice to find someone who has actually used bamboo flooring in a marine environment. I'd even settle for someone who's used it on a screen porch or similar semi-outdoor environment (an application the vendor's are equally opposed to).

Harry

[rasorinc]

Chinese sheetrock and milk were toxic. I do not trust them.

A beautiful hard wood is Ironbark known as Eucalyptus and being grown in many places now such as central and south america. I've bought it for $ 3.00 a board foot. iT IS NOT AS HEAVY AS PEOPLE SAY AND WITH STAIN (sorry about that ) I can make it look like mahogony or teak. Does not rot, glues well, holds screws well and is a wonderful wood.
Very strong, more so than mahogony, and is a delight to work with. Research it and you will be very pleased with what you read.

[daiquiri]

As a kid I used to cut bamboo and create various stuff out of it. I remember it as a very hard, strong, resilient, fibrous wood. And pretty heavy too.
Kendo martial artists (sword fighters) use them as a substitute for steel swords: http://www.thefind.com/sports/browse-shinai-kendo-bamboo-sword , as it is impact-resistant too.

Remaining in Japan, Kyudo archers have their longbows made of bamboo laminates, and some argue their longbows were almost as efficient and powerful as famous english longbows. Which again should testify in favour of bamboo's strength and elasticity.

All these things have made me think that, perhaps a plywood made of bamboo laminate bonded with resorcinol glue (if it adheres well to bamboo wood) could be a good candidate for marine use. Does anyone know if it has been tried and if such a product exists?

Cheers

[Ad Hoc]

Bamboo is great. But, some dutch freinds of mine work(ed) in the Philippines doing their PhD research for a dutch-phili company making furniture. They told me that once you cut bamboo, there are bugs/insects that are attracted to it and eat it. They told me that so far, no one has found a way, safely at least, to prevent this from occuring.

The Banca's used in the Phili, their outriggers are some 5-10 long lengths of Bamboo tied together, perfect boat building material. But, when they crumble/rotten...so what just cut down and start again.

So, ok for temp use, but not sure about permanent.

[daiquiri]

They told me that once you cut bamboo, there are bugs/insects that are attracted to it and eat it. They told me that so far, no one has found a way, safely at least, to prevent this from occuring.
That's an interesting info.

[Ad Hoc]

That's an interesting info.

Indeed.
I never knew/heard about this..fascinating stuff.

[daiquiri]

My comment was a bit laconic, but I'm wondring wether this problem is related to the geographical area of Philippines, or is it more widespread. I mean, bamboo has been used for creating all these stuff: http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/bamboo.htm (well, this one too: http://www.pyroenergen.com/articles10/takefumi-reflexology-paths.htm - incidentally :P ) so, apparently, in other geographical areas people have found solutions to that bug bugger... :)
Cheers!

[Ad Hoc]

D

Check out their website on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Buglas-Bamboo-Institute/104771992900597?v=info

look at the neg's:
"..Bamboo is highly susceptible to a quality degrader: Dinoderus Minutus, a bug that enters the bamboo after it is cut and will bore small holes for its entrance and exit..."

[PAR]

Without peer and independent review, of course MDS and ISO or other certification, clarification or testing documentation and without the apparent willingness to supply any of it, I can't honestly say I'd trust anything from this portion of the world. This same area of the world flooded the plywood market with BS 1088 stamped panels that delaminated just at the mentioning of moisture, this area is very well known for supply incredibly low priced, supposedly similar quality products, just to find they short cutted something somewhere. Again, without the appropriate and appreciable documentation, I can't recommend it for anything other then aunt Millie's kitchen floor.

[welder/fitter]

I, fortunately, have an "expert" sitting beside me, as I read this thread. All sentences, henceforth, should be preceded by the words, "My wife says".

A bamboo nipa hut - little bamboo house - will be worthless in 3 to 5 years, unless varnished/revarnished a couple of times per year. The bamboo amas on our bankas only lasted a couple of years before waterlogged & rotting. The inner core of bamboo turns to pulp long before the outer skin shows issues.


Would the bamboo in The Philippines work for boatbuilding and/or interior joinery? Personally, I don't have that much faith in it, but if someone else wants to attempt it, I'd consider supplying the bamboo for the project(didn't ask my wife about this one!) & space, if needed. I'll be having a nipa hut built at one end of our beach for my own "hang-out". I expect I'll have to replace it every so often, but so what? For less than $1,500usd pre-fabbed it's not a huge loss. Philippines used to have a hardwood "nara"(?) that is much like ironwood - probably is - but has become rare & expensive. I thought that the big issue with bamboo was the wood-eating bugs, but my wife says that the bamboo wicks water.

[sailingharry]

I understand the reluctance to use a new product, especially one with no available data. That's the very issue I'm having myself.

I did a little more digging, and found that Alden Yachts ships their Breton Reef 40 with a bamboo cabin sole. While they are probably not using a Home Depot material, I am also pretty sure they aren't manufacturing the material themselves! It sure would be nice to know what they are using, and where they get it.

The article is here:
http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/article/Alden-Yachts-Brenton-Reef-40
and the reference to the cabin sole is the 3rd to last paragraph.

Harry

[Ilan Voyager]

Bamboo is a very strong material. Not very durable in its natural state after cutting as it's full of sugars giving food to fungus and insects.
The sugar has to be removed by letting it in water during a good time. After it can be treated by CCA, or borates or others. There are different methods (by pressure, solvent or immersion). The traditional Japanese method is to smoke it until it's almost black. Smelly but that works.

Unhappily bamboo is not suitable for structural marine use but a good bamboo laminated floor will work in a boat if made with the good glues and treated.

For the use in nipas and palapas there is a cheap and effective treatment with borates. The borate treatment asks for a simple equipment and a bit of patience.

[PAR]

This is the main issue we have with this stuff, the lack of credible product testing and certification. Will the adhesive pass a type 1 boil test? What does Lloyd's think of this stuff . . . I can't see any product manufacture, turning down an obvious market nitch, if they didn't already know the product wouldn't hold up. This would go a long way toward explaining why the suppliers are quickly saying no, to marine environment requires or suggestions.

[Ad Hoc]

This is the main issue we have with this stuff, the lack of credible product testing and certification. .

This is so so true with many "wonder" materials.

There shall be zero credibility within the commercial field, for usage, of any product not just bamboo, until it passes rigorous testing and obtains a credible independent certification

[PAR]

The biggest issue I have is the lack of interest in this area of pursuit. You would think all they need to do is mash up some bamboo, vibrate the strands into parallel orientation then add a WBP adhesive or suspend it in a resin like polyester, vinylester or epoxy. I would think a few layers, with fiber direction to the favor of the panel, could also be done. Wouldn't a manufacture jump at the prospect of supplying a plywood substitute at a fraction of the cost? Or is it that constructed this way, the combination resin/adhesive and fiber ratio doesn't make a very strong panel, in spite of the general physical possibilities of bamboo, as the base material. In other words, I think we have a resin/adhesive rich product, which doesn't lend well to light, stiff products with this particular base.

[Ilan Voyager]

Yes Ad Hoc, it'a a common issue of the wonder materials, but for the case of bamboo floors it would be relatively simple as these floors are purely decorative and have not structural purpose. A super carpet for inside decoration, not exposed to weather. So just a waterproof glue and a good treatment are needed. These floors are very resistant to passage wear and may be beautiful.

Par, the common structural defect of all sawdust and fiber panels is too much glue and not enough wood fiber...

The fabrication of bamboo floors asks for a a lot of work, as the bamboo is split in strips , squared and planed, matched and finally glued. There is a lot of sites in Internet describing the process.

It's out of subject but I love so much bamboo and its applications that I can't resist to give a short information:

Bamboo (it's a grass) grows to a commercial size in about 5 years (the fastest trees in 25-30 years). On a Guadua bamboo plantation you can harvest between 1000 to 3000 25 feet/4 to 6 inches diameter poles on a acre every year...so it becomes an interesting material for house building.

Colombia has a long tradition of bamboo/cement building. The simple houses are cheap (5000 USD a 80 sq meter house) and seismic resistant until scale 7.
Some modern upper class Colombian (not cheap, but not so expensive) houses in bamboo and cement.
http://www.zuarq.blogspot.com/

A Nepalese page
http://purwanchalbamboo.blogspot.com/2011/01/bamboo-engineered-housing.html

Bamboo is very strong in its natural state; a pipe reinforced with nods and having an extraordinary strong and hard final layer. This layer gives all the resistance of a bamboo. The inside fiber is not particularly strong. That gives a pipe material with an excellent ratio weight/strength in compression and flexion.

Just a pic to illustrate the possibilities...not a five years hut...and compare the size of the poles with a similar structure in steel tubing...

[rxcomposite]

I have used bamboo on several indigenous (local) crafts, but when it comes to choosing the specie, it is the local boat guys to trust. They know what kind of bamboo to choose for the outrigger and the amas. Right. not one fits all.

Once they cut the bamboo, they dont let it touch the ground. The soft inner fibers are like marsmallow to the insects. The bow shape outrigger is bent using low heat source. Rags soak in diesel and use the soot generated to further insulate the bamboo from heat. After it has taken shape, they scrape off the green skin and let it dry in the sun.

For bamboo flooring, they split the bamboo into 1" strips, scrape the green skin and the soft mushy inner fibers. As long as it is wet, it lasts, so boat owner are known to bathe the boats with water whenever it is sitting more than a day in the sun.

Why bamboo? Because it is cheap or nearly free. Rattan and bamboo are the first to be cut whenever there is a logging operation. And when it is time to replace the bamboo, all the fisherman needs to do is hike to the backyard forest and cut a length for his need.

It is different when the rivers or lakes is near the city. Bamboo is hard to find so timber or PVC pipes are used.

[sailingharry]

This is the main issue we have with this stuff, the lack of credible product testing and certification. Will the adhesive pass a type 1 boil test? What does Lloyd's think of this stuff . . . I can't see any product manufacture, turning down an obvious market nitch, if they didn't already know the product wouldn't hold up. This would go a long way toward explaining why the suppliers are quickly saying no, to marine environment requires or suggestions.

PAR,

I'm a competent jack-of-all trades, but I'm not a skilled and knowledgeable yacht designer and I know it. That's why I'm here. I know enough to ask what are hopefully intelligent questions, but I also know enough to know I'm probably missing a lot.

As I go look for a suitable finish surface for the cabin sole in my 34' coastal sailboat, I see a couple of comments in your reply above that caught my eye.

You mention a "type 1 boil test" -- what kinds of finish surfaces are tested to this, and where do I find them? Is this something that is marked on the product, or something assumed? When I go to my local specialty lumber yard and get a sheet of 1/4 "marine grade" teak and holly (the defacto standard for yacht flooring) will I find this clearly marked, or is it assumed -- or worse yet, is it important, not marked, and often not suitable?

You also mention Lloyds approval. The same questions as with the boil test arise -- again, what should I be looking for in a flooring surface with Lloyds approval?

While I understand that marine should require a higher grade of goods, it can be very difficult to know what a product West Marine has on the shelf really is, and how it is superior to a Home Depot product when the only "badge of credibility" is the fact that it is sold by West Marine -- a very weak endorsement for sure, but frequently the best available.

Harry

[PAR]

Harry when it comes to plywood there are several (actually many) grading systems, but a universal standard is the Lloyd's "British Standard" which has a few different classifications, specifically the BS 1088 and 6566 designation. In the USA we (the APA) employ a voluntary grading system and the marine grade is P1-95. US made plywood often isn't marked on each panel, though most reputable BS graded stock is clearly marked.

What these "ratings" certify are the species, adhesives and construction tolerances permitted to receive the rating. The adhesives are WBP (water/boil proof), the species rot resistant, the internal and external veneers have quality requirements they must meet or they're not up to the standard. The adhesives rating is it's resistance of adhesive-bonded joints to thermal and hydrolytic degradation. There are several ASTM (and others) standards that can be expected from these panels as well; such as sheer, tension and other loading expectations, etc.

Once you get a handle on what a good sheet of BS 1088 looks like and compare it to the same thickness construction plywood (Lowe's/Depot), it quickly becomes obvious. This is more so true, when you use it in a boat and have to bend and torture it into position. Because of the construction of marine grades, they can tolerate much high strains and loads, where a construction grade panel would just break, the marine sucks it up and accepts it's fate.

The type 1 test is a water proof test that just checks an adhesive's ability to resist moisture. Passing the type 1 test indicates it's absolutely waterproof, though admittedly some adhesives have the type 1 certification but just barely pass and aren't recommended for immersion. TiteBond III is a classic example of this, but the manufacture clearly understands this and points it out in the published physical properties information about it.

All materials and products with wide acceptance in the commercial markets, have no choice but to submit to testing and certification, other wise they have a very limited market. This is why there's always a MDS and other "data" sheets or PDF's that offer more detailed descriptions of the products on web sites.

As for your needs and difficulties, education and experience about the marine product differences will be helpful. You don't have to go to school or take a part time job in a marina, but again one look at a BS 1088 sheet next to a BCX sheet from Lowe's will reveal much. The same is true of an alcohol stove, one intended for your Winnebago, the other your yacht. The RV stove will look very much like you yacht's unit, but then the differences begin to show up, such as stainless bracketry, marine grade fastenings, fiddles and a host of other little, often subtle differences, which tend to drive the cost up as much as the markup, for the word "marine" on the packaging.

As to your flooring, contact the manufacture and ask them straight up what the adhesive is and/or if it passes the type 1 WBP test. You might be able to get by with a type II certification (water resistant only) in your cabin, but sailboat soles have a common habit of getting very wet from time to time and a type II adhesive will "let go" fairly quickly. I don't use these new laminated flooring products on boats, though a large motor yacht certainly could tolerate them, I'm not convinced it would be a good choice for a 34' cruiser. So, this leaves the option of real wood, veneered panels, applique's (PVC, etc.), etc. As to what best for you; product research with each potential product you like, is the answer. Some manufactures will hop at the chance to brag about their WBP products, while others will dance all around the subject and not really offer you the answer you need (because they know the answer and would prefer it remains a mystery).

[Ilan Voyager]

sailingharry , Par gave you the rational and straight answer. He took the time to write a very detailed explanation.

I do love bamboo and bamboo flooring but I share Par's opinion that a bamboo flooring on a 34 foot sailboat won't be a good option. Type 1 WBP glues are generally dark so unsuitable for making any laminated product as bamboo flooring, and at the best of cases the glue will be a transparent urea-formol used widely for wood decorative products.

A such glue has only a moderate resistance to water and the bamboo flooring will fall in pieces in brief delays. Bamboo swells a lot (about 15%) when "wetted" and no glue will take such stresses.

These bamboo floors are made for inside residential use like all the decorative wood flooring.

The other problem for a 34 foot sail boat is that the floor will be probably too heavy. Make a calculation of the sq. foot weight you'll be horrified, as it's just a super carpet with not structural strength, so a full floor structure is needed under...

[sailingharry]

I think I've been convinced. I'll be staying with the tried and true "marine grade" teak and holly plywood. From what I can tell from the internet, it lasts fairly well if you never need to strip and refinish --- if you keep the varnish in good shape, it's a decent product. My current sole is teak and "black stripes" with an oil finish, but the top veneer from 1979 is probably thicker than today's versions.

Thanks all, especially PAR, for your thorough responses.

Harry