Ideas/Plans for a boatbuilding shed?

[Jay and Ebben]

I am exploring ideas for a boatbuilding shed that will be approx. 30'X50'. Here in Vermont we have 3' of snow on the ground right now so the design needs to be able to either support it, or shed it (allow it to slide off) a few times each winter. I do not have vast accounts to tap for this project so cost is very important to me - I am hoping a few of you out there may be able to share some creative concepts. Possibly this has been discussed here on the forum before but I could not find it.

Thank you!

J

[Tad]

The Stimson bow shed is probably the least expensive way to to go.......

Concept is here http://www.microcruising.com/shed.htm

You have to be careful to scale the geometry correctly, then it will shed the snow nicely....if you get it wrong the shed will collapse....We had a few come down here (heavy west coast wet snow) before people learned....but they can be successful in larger sizes and northern climates.......

[Tad]

This guy built pony walls and set the bow shed on top....good for added height.......

http://www.ramoak.com/yankee30/23/shed-the-bows-are-up

[thedutchtouch]

how permanent can/will this structure be?

[Jay and Ebben]

I am looking at a ten year building. Which may well classify it as permanent - but if it is temporary there are tax advantages. The township where I live has large tax issues. On the other hand, I have not cast aside the possibility of a permanent roof structure if it is affordable.

The Stimson buildings which were mentioned look good. I had forgotten about them. It's funny, I remember 20 +/- years ago David Stimson coming and going around the yard in Boothbay Maine - where we both used to work. I should ad, David was very respected. He is an EXCELLENT craftsman!

Other ideas would be greatly appreciated as well.

[Lurvio]

Hi

I'm not sure you want to go this kind of route, but if you could think of a use for the building after the boat is out, I'd build it as a regular building, foundations that can take the weight (does not have to be concrete, but is recommended), build the walls out of 2x4 (or2x6) as elements, about four meter sections. This size elements can be handled and erected by two men (personal experience, 3,5m high wall).

The roof trusses I made for my workshop (25 pcs, building is 8 m x 23 m) are made out of 1x6'' spruce, assembled in a jig with 3'' nails (300 nails - 1,5 kg per pcs). The trusses weighted about 110 kg apiece, so lifting them ontop the walls was done by a winch lift. In my use the trusses hold up about 50 kg per sq.meter of weight on the lower chord and light steel plate roof on top. Most weight I've seen on that roof was well over a meter of packed snow on one side. I was on the attic (with a rubber mallet) when that mass decided to come down on one big slab, the trusses did not give any kind of creaks.

As for cost, my workshop has insulation (free - wood milling shavings) and two layers of gypsum board inside as fire proofing and concrete floor with floor (water circulation) heating. Cost in materials (excl. insulation) is around 20 000 euros. Basically everything is done by myself with help from my father so no labour cost. For boat building I think at least one meter of additional height is needed compared to my workshop's 3,5 meters.

Here is the model of the trusses, although these are assembled with nailplates.
http://www.sepa.fi/media/piirrokset/ristikot-englanti/01.jpg (http://www.sepa.fi/EN/roof-trusses/normal-ridge-truss.html)

I'm sure there are cheaper ways to make a shed, and this method can also be stripped to easily save 5-10K, gypsym board alone cost over 3K. What you get is a building that will last as long as the boat.

Lurvio

[Petros]

Jay,

I am an engineer that mostly designs buildings and I have been thinking about something similar for a large boat project. The "bow shed" in the link above is too small for your needs, the loading is quite complicated and it does not just scale up to the size you want.

Where I live we can build a "green house" up to 4000 sf without permits (and attendant tax assessments) if the walls and top are "primarily translucent poly material". You might check and see if you have something similar in your local building code (most places have these rules on-line). The "greenhouse" designation is based on design, not usage. But if the local authorities started pestering me about my boat shed/greenhouse I would hang some potted plants from the trusses for their sake.

I have preliminary calculations and sketches of a 25x40 "Gothic arch" (similar to the bow shed shape) "greenhouse" that uses all 2x4 arch shaped trusses with plywood gussets. I would pour a slab with a thickened edge for a foundation, bolt down a mud sill, and build the trusses one at a time and stand them up. They are on 8 foot spacing and use 2x perlins every 2 feet. Than I would cover the "greenhouse" with heavy white filament reinforced outdoor tarp fabric bought on a 96" wide roll and held in place with battens screwed to the trusses. I also live in a fairly heavy snow load area so it will have to be strong for me as well. I was even considering putting in a loft up in the peak for light storage.

I estimate the total material cost to build it would be about $4000, including the slab/foundation. Since I would be buying several slings of 2x4x8' lumber I can buy directly from the mill to get a good price. Buy the heavy poly tarp from a wholesale supplier, and buy bulk plywood, or see if I can use scrap plywood since none of my gussets are very large. Also, the design is such that it could be sided and roofed over with plywood, and roofing and siding for a "permanent" structure, or it can be dismantled and the lumber used for other projects when you are done.

It should go up fairly fast since the minimal amount of materials are used, all the trusses are the same (you outline it on the slab, lay chords and guessts, and shoot them with a nail gun).

I could design one of these for you if you are interested. PM me and we can discuss details.

[Jay and Ebben]

Petros,

Thank you for your reply. I searched images for "gothic arch" and came up with the following interesting images. Thank you for your reply - you advanced my inquiry by a considerable margin. The pointed arch is a good direction to continue as the snow will shed often and a collapse is unlikely. Calling it a greenhouse is a great idea too. I will investigate ideas of that nature with the tax office.

I appreciate your offer to design for me but my budget simply does not allow me to hire much outside labor... I will be saving those precious dollars for further down the road when I am not able to move forward without assistance.

It would be wonderful if other people would contribute more images of simple trusses that I can build or share ideas of low cost materials, or joint details. Light is important for visibility - saves much electric lighting costs and general good mood improves with full spectrum (natural light). So if anybody has ideas please share them.

I noticed that height on these forms is not a problem. The challenge seems to be not having it too high for a 30' width.

Is there really no other mention of this on the boatnet forum? if there is please let me know.

Thank you.

J

[KnottyBuoyz]

Petros is right. The Stimson won't scale up to the size you need. Max width according to the designer and someone who's built one is 20'.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/KnottyBuoyz/KBIII/f0eb5c65.jpg

This one is 20' X 32'. Covering is heat shrink plastic. Cost approx. $1800.

[Jay and Ebben]

Grat idea - I was wondering about heat shrink. Can anybody say how many years they have seen it standing? before the sun destroys it? I like the idea that shrinking it locks it together and eliminates wind vibration. Like an airplane wing/body.

Where would I find the best pricing for heat wrap?

[KnottyBuoyz]

Grat idea - I was wondering about heat shrink. Can anybody say how many years they have seen it standing? before the sun destroys it? I like the idea that shrinking it locks it together and eliminates wind vibration. Like an airplane wing/body.

Where would I find the best pricing for heat wrap?
I bought an entire roll on e-Bay. Was around $300. From what I've heard I should expect 3-4 years out of it. One full roll was enough to do my shed twice over.

This is the heavy (7Mil) wrap. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Boat-Shrink-Wrap-Marine-Construction-17x175-7mDIY-B-/130424376451?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item1e5de60c83)

I've also heard that the best covering for a shelter like this is painted canvass. If you've priced canvass lately you'll see it'd be a bit pricey but could last the 10 years you're looking for.

What size boat are you building?

[Jay and Ebben]

GREAT tips! Thanks

I am working on a feasibility study for a 43' x 13 cutter. Trying to figure out all expenses.... could be dozing the area and laying concrete as soon as May with a building erected by the end of the summer.

J

[KnottyBuoyz]

J, do a search on "Pole Shed". This might be what you're looking for. It won't be as cheap as a bow shed but significantly less than a fully framed shed. I had a friend do one of these. He contacted the local steel roofing company and got all the offcuts and blems for 25% of retail. He used these to cover the roof and sides. Just a few more ideas.

[Petros]

Jay,

Designing you a gothic truss you can build is not as costly as you might think. You can throw anything up and use it, but if it fails, or does not last as long as you need, you did not save any money. The whole point of using an engineer is to save you construction cost, it will optimize the use of materials to your local snow and wind conditions to possibly save you several thousand dollars in material cost. To build a conventional pole building or stick frame shop you are looking at about $10,000 for framing materials (not including windows or doors). My gothic truss barn/"greenhouse" should cost about half that, with translucent covering you would not need any windows for lighting.

I would be surprised if you could find a design for free that would suit your needs and cost you that little in construction costs. Since I was going to design something similar for myself I was considering doing the design for you at half of my normal fee. If I can sell the plans to anyone else than I can make a bit more off it later.

I have used the shrink wrap before, it holds up reasonably well and is inexpensive and easy to apply. But I do not think it would last 10 years. Five maybe, if you do not get a heavy snow load on it after it was weakened from being in the sunshine for 3+ years.

I would advise white filament reinforced outdoor awning poly fabric. IT is designed to be exposed to the weather continuously in permanent structures. Not too costly if you buy it from an online supplier in 100 yard rolls. I seem to remember it would only cost about $400 for materials to cover my planned 25x40' "green house". less than plywood or siding.

I might have a sketch of what I was planning I could scan and post if you want to see what I had in mind.

[rberrey]

Also check with your boat designer. A set of plans for a temp building shed were included in my tristar 31 plans. I just dont want to take the added time to build it . rick

[Jay and Ebben]

Thanks for your help and ideas. I am studying them as much as time allows.

Another idea I came across last night is simply searching for used trusses, siding and metal buildings on craigslist and ebay. I was surprised at the amount of items out there on my first search. It will be interesting to see what pops up over the next few months. It would not surprise me if somebody just wanted a building removed from a site prior to them setting something else in its place. We'll see!

I would appreciate other thoughts still.

Thank you!

J-

[Petros]

That is an excellent idea, I have assisted several clients with just such a project. Of course you will need the heavy equipment to dismantle, load and move it to your site. I have seen buildings like that free, or next to free, if the person would dismantle it and haul it away (it costs the builder for demolition and haul off of the old building).

The problem is your local municipality would consider it a permanent building and you would have to permit it, and find a local engineer willing to provide you with a set of "as-built" plans and current calculations to demonstrate the old building meets current building code (that typically costs $2000-3000, but you might find someone to do it for less). I have done this on a number of occasions for my own clients.

Sometimes there are exceptions for moving an existing building to a new location within the jurisdiction, but these usually apply to whole houses moved in one piece, not dismantling a building in one location and erecting it in another. But you should check with your local building department for their policy on relocating an existing building. You also might see if they have a policy for a "temporary" building.

This is why I like the idea of building a "greenhouse", that also will be sheltering my boat projects.

[KnottyBuoyz]

You could always build two bow sheds. One to actually build the boat in and another as a workshop. Join the two with a passageway. This gets you to within the design limits for a bow shed. Build one first. Get organized. When you're actually ready to start building the boat build the second. Spread your costs out and you'll hardly notice them. Just another thought.

[SeaJay]

this may be a bit off topic, but I'll pass along something that has saved me a ton of effort and time. My first build was a 44' ferro trawler and climbing in and out of the hull while it was under construction was a mind-numbing task. This time I got smarter and built an elevated shop at the end of the building. My transom is open so I can step directly from the shop into the boat. I can't over stress how much this facilitates the build. If I want to quickly check a dimension or go fetch the correct tool, no problem. I'm not sure if this is applicable to your situation but if so, give it some thought.

Regards,

SeaJay

[viking north]

Speaking as a licenced building contractor/boatbuilder you should budget $10,000 for a temp building that size/lifetime. Do what i did once in the past before I built my present shop, invest in materials that you can sell and recoup a large chunk of your money when the build is completed.
#1 The slab, size and build it so it becomes an asset( outside patio, play game area, ect.) when house selling and cruising time arrives.
#2 construct your walls with 24 to 30 in baker scaffolding. Fasten horizontal 1x3 or 1x4 strapping spaced 16 to 24 in. apart along the outside using conduit U straps using pan head screws. Cover your outside walls with square style corrigated greenhouse clear or coloured panels fasten with a rubber washer, non rusting flat washer and a pan head screw.( Use care here in even screw spacing and non rusting fasteners to prevent rust stains on the panels for re sale value) Purchase 10 to 20 plydecks. You then have excellent portable height adjusting floors and work tables.
#3 Order in factory built 2x4 truss rafters space 24in. apart, horizontally strap every 16 to 24 in. cover again with greenhouse corrigated panels. Keep you roof overhang short and Fasten every foot along the bottom edge as the wind will want to lift the roof edge. Build your doors from the same, using a wood frame.
#4 When the build is complete the structure is easy to dismantle(screws) and sell as all the materials are highly marketable.-- Geo

[Jay and Ebben]

SeaJay - very good idea. The thought of a multilevel floor had never entered my mind. I am building into a hillside and the problem may now be worked into an asset. Leaving the transom open as long as possible is also an interesting thought to consider. Many advantages.

Viking north - Excellent thinking as well. It seems well worth the extra investment if I can recoup some of it in the end rather than load it into a dumpster. Question; what do you mean by "24 to 30 in baker scaffolding". Is that regular construction scaffolding? Might you have a photo of a building made this way?

Thank you very much for your excellent advice!

J-

[viking north]

Sorry stupid me didn't take any photos. The 24 to 30 in. baker scaffolding physically looks like regular construction scaffolding but is not as wide. It assembles in the same manner with cross bracing and locking pins to hold the levels together. To keep it from lifting in a wind storm saddle the lower pieces with say 4 bags (150lbs.) of sand on each section. I would go with 12 foot cross braces and platforms to reduce the number of sections needed. If it works out better you can also go with 10 footers. I simply lashed 2x6's along the top of the top sections and fastened my truss rafters to the 2x6 with hurricane clips using again you guessed it pan head screws. By the way use what we have used here in Canada since the 1800's Robinson head screws, I think you guys now have them :) called square heads. Believe it or not these are fairley new to the U.S. maybe the last 20yrs. Buy used scaffolding from the big rental places should cost approx. ($50.00 a section, 2 end frames) ($15.00 pair for bracing) ($75 a platform often called a plydeck) Get prices from building supply on corrigated greenhouse panels, buy in quanity should save from 20 to 30 percent. If possible have a contractor friend buy all materials for you, promise him a boat trip with good rum in 10yrs. If you decide to go this route i can draw you up a basic set of plans. By the way, it's easy to set up a complete moveable workshop on the scaffolding, table saw, mitersaw, drill press, and so on as you can use the platforms(plydecks) as floors and work benches.--Geo.

A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the care and love of her owner.

[Dirteater]

a thought ...
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Insulation.
I have a friend with a Shelby, his garage is set up to never get colder than -10 degrees.
I think boats would benefit as well. (and also the working environment).

It's the minus 30's I don't like :eek:

I think Insulation should be a consideration.

DE

[Jay and Ebben]

Thank you to all who have responded to my thread. I had been studying the differences of options that were mentioned here and asking around locally about roof trusses to salvage from buildings that were being torn down around here. I just happened to ask my question in a room full of people and one person chimed in and said "I know of a roof for you but you have to take the rest of it with you". Turns out it was a full steel Butler type building that had been disassembled and did not quite fit the salvage masters plans as initially intended so it was going to auction..... NOT! I ended up purchasing it on the spot. A 40 x 53 footprint. Not pretty but lots of materials to work with... for $1,200. I plan on raising the building this summer, rebuilding my boat over the next 8 years and then selling the building again. I'll post some photos of the project this summer. Right now it is 5 degrees outside and 6" of snow on the site. Lots to do when the weather warms!

It really paid off in the end for me to take my time and ask lots of people lots of questions. I saw many ideas that would have been wonderful starting points from this forum. Thank you all! I will leave the forum open for others to post ideas. It seems a good thread for many of us getting started.

One last item. I read elsewhere to check salvage yards for electrical materials and I found a wonderful yard locally. My first visit I was searching for 200' of heavy duty wire to run to my new building and guess what I found? a whole spool of new 2/0 aluminum wire for $1 a pound! wow!

Sail on!

[michael pierzga]

Translucent panels in walls and roof , to allow natural light, are well worth it. Nothing worse than working in a cave shed.

[viking north]

Don't want to be the party pooper here but in many areas including mixed residential/buisness zones this type of building is agressively not allowed. I know here in the Halifax area of Nova Scotia it is permitted only in specific zoned areas where such zoning exists. You have probably already checked into this, if not might be wise to do so before you expend more time and money. Sorry don't want be the messinger of bad news but certainly don't want you to go thru my experience with same --Geo.

[michael pierzga]

What if you disguise the boat shed as a Church ? Or Muslim Community center ?

[viking north]

Michael you're always thinking--good idea then one could earn enough to build the Yacht. However use the term Ark when passing the collection plate :)

[Jay and Ebben]

I do not have the permit in hand yet but I have stopped in the zoning office a few times and they don't seem to give a hoot... as long as they get their fees! (another story which I will avoid here). It's Vermont... I'll call it a "Yurt".... millions of them out in these woods...

[viking north]

Great- one problem with them with heating in the winter is if they are not well insulated they condense and drip like rain. Most guys run a strong rope with turnbuckle up near the peak and use a big one piece tarp in tent fashon with the bottoms fastened to the back of the work benches on either side. Works excellent as well as making it easier to heat with the trapped air.

[Jay and Ebben]

Heat? Thats what July is for!

[Petros]

Great find on the building, this is not unusual if you just snoop around.

If your property is in a rural area the building size should not be an issue, common to put up barns or workshops that size all the time. You will likely need to find a local engineer or architect to create proper plans and calculation. If you are so inclined you can draw your own plans as long as they are done to the building department's minimum standard (usually 1/4" to 1' scale) with all the connection details. You might try submitting them yourself and see if they approve them. If the building is not too old you might be able to locate the original manufacturer (they are usually sold as a building package) and get the drawings and calculations package for it.

And there is still the possibility of passing it off as a "greenhouse" if you put in enough translucent roof panels. Check with your local codes for rural areas.

[Jay and Ebben]

I just reread this thread that I started almost one year ago and I was reminded of how much has changed since then. While working out a feasibility study on building a scratch built steel or aluminum boat I came to understand that it was just too much of a financial stretch. The short story is that I started looking for a hull to rebuild. I had already read many design and steel boat books so I felt I would be able to find something out there that would suit my needs. Eventually, on Craigslist I found a hull that was within hours of being cut up for scrap. Crazy! So I jumped a plane and flew down for a peek. 24 hours later I shook hands with the owners sister (the owner was sadly killed in a motorcycle accident) and then was forced to fly back home and tell my wife the news... she was so.... 'excited' she didn't talk to me for months! ;) but now... well... maybe soon!

Anyways... here is a video of the arrival of the new steed here in Vermont. A full overhaul is just beginning. She is dutch built by Kompier in '82, designed by Henk Tingen. The photo below shows her in full color about 13 years ago. She is now ready for some new steel and paint.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=z19BbGOuaPQ

Sail on!

[michael pierzga]

Beautiful boat. Lots of work.

Hire the best surveyor before you create your battle plan.

Ive seen other beautiful yachts broken up because it was simply too expensive to rebuild them.

Do all you costing at professional shipyard prices. If youre skilled You certainly will be able to save money over a shipyard.....but not as much as you may wish

[Jay and Ebben]

If I worked my cost basing on shipyard pricing the boat would still be in Florida! I am basing it on 8 years of labor (which will allow a healthy relationship with my wife and kids), a life time of acquired tools, volumes of books I've read on yacht design, steel boats, welding etc. many years on the water, a career firefighters budget and the fact that Moitessier did it 3 times w' nary a franc in his holed pockets! I am well past the need to use phone poles and cables for spars such as he - but I am not likely welcome at the New York Yacht Clubs annual buffet! As good fortune will have it... I am also starting with a fine dutch hull and fittings that were fabricated by some of the finest craftsmen of the '80's. In general, the condition of the steel hull is extraordinary. I have to replace sections of the deck and cabin house but wow.. EVERYTHING else is there! well... less the fact that each and every spar is delaminated at every seem. :D

I say this all in good humor of course and with all respect to you Michael. In part I am continuing a dialog I have created w/ myself that confirms the fact that I am doing this, now. I promised the owners sister (who I purchased the vessel from) that one day we would cast her brothers ashes to the sea from his beautifully restored yacht... and this will happen one day! Cheers to "those that dream during the day and make their dreams a reality"
Oscar Wilde.

Sail on!

ps. the photo is of Maverick after some fresh paint in her former days of glory... a sneak peak of the future!

[michael pierzga]

Good luck !!. The Dutch build fine boats. Ive been refitting Dutch steel yachts for 30 years.

[viking north]

Take it from an old boat builder that has been thru this more times than I want to remember- including relationships. take it in steps, don't rush, and do a little every day regardless of how little that is. Planning is included in this time -keep a notebook on person, in the boat, in the car, and if you can find one a big old school blackboard, install it in the boat shed.(I have two). Take at least one full day and one full night per week and devote that time totally to the family.If the missus is not into boating or your dream you will have a challenge--so heres what i've learned over the years-be extremely patient and as much as you want too don't over do it with time on the project, thats why the family time is so important. Include the family in small easy projects with rewards of payment as you would a helper. Allowance for the kids fun money for the wife. They have got to become part of the dream otherwise at launch time you might have to make a relationship decision--seen it happen too many times. Of all the activities of man motorcycles and boats are critical to family involvement. On the project itself, Step #1 is to protect it from the weather until you get a boat shed over it. Being a steel hull here are your most important tools -- a good 220volt powered portable mig --By being able to move it around you do not need an expensive spool gun. A plazma cutter capable of cutting 1/2 to 3/4 in steel. Plazmas cut cooler than gas and tend not to warp, plus they can also cut alum. or stainless. A good compressor, air dryer and an in line oiler plus nice assortment of air tools.(a seperate hose and no oiler for spray painting) A top notch brand, medium and small grinder-. A medium size sand blaster. Lots of good quality C and magnetic clamps. I'm sure the guys or yourself can add to this but this should get you in the go. -- Open a thread dedicated to you build post with photos we'll all join in-- Congrads. and good luck -Geo.

[Jay and Ebben]

Thanks VN,

That is some of the best advice I have heard yet. The mechanics issues don't scare me but my relationship with my wife does. She joined me (first date!) just as I was starting the live-aboard life on the wood boat you see in my profile photo and spent years going back and forth to her job in Vermont. She knows the deal. I begged her to sail around the world with me at that time... the boat was ready and I had sold everything else I had and had nothing to come back to (this was another excellent tip from an ole' salt). Unfortunately in South America she said she was ready to return home. At that time I said; "I can always find another boat... but there is only one Beth". Let me tell you... finding the means for this second boat is much tougher with a family!.

The recent loss of a few of my closest friends pointed out the writing on the wall. The time had come. Now. If I don't make it around the globe in Maverick I will at least make it to the edge and get a sailors view over the side for a while. Or I will pass from this world doing everything possible to make it happen. It is that important to me.

The primary goals that I had established were;
1) Do no financial harm to my family. I bought the boat for the price of scrap steel. It has cleaned up nicely and is worth well over what I paid for it and my hopes are that as I work on it the value will increase at least parallel to my efforts.

2) Family first. Pick a time line that works for everyone. I have nine years of work as a firefighter (way back I was a wooden boat builder). My kids will be college age at that point. I hope more than anything they will choose to join me when they can - but I want them to find there own path. I really hope we can all go... but I am rigging to sail alone when absolutely required.

3) Support Beth in any way I can to make her comfortable. Improve the homestead for all of us. Hope she can join me at times too.

4) Work, work, have good times with family. Load and go. Be responsible and sail hard...

5) Take full advantage of others advice on the forum!! there sure is lots out there! Some, like yours is wonderful.

Thank you for contributing so thoughtfully. You are helping me more than you may be aware...

Sail on!