New yacht - what to buy

[Tantalus]

We've decided to sell our launch and get back into sailing. I need help deciding on what to get. Am looking at a new Bavaria 32; Jeanneau 33i; Beneteau 32; Hanse 32 & the HUnter 33.
Important criteria for us:
furling main & jib, auto helm, electric anchoring, head room, reasonable size bed, hot water, spray dodger, bimini, price. Along with the essential sailing abilities - obviously.
Any thoughts/ suggestions please?

[Landlubber]

...buy used and save thousands mate, everyone around you is going broke, so now is not the time to waste good money on a new (with way too many people adding profits) boat.

[Tantalus]

Hmmm. I hear you. My last 6 boats were all 2nd hand. New is nice!!! Plus, if you look after it, it you get your money back. There's a 2005 model Bavaria for sale here now at the same price as a brand new one! Go figure?

[michael pierzga]

I dont know prices .

Bavaria is little more than a disposable kitchen appliance. Ive always had a good impression of French production build standards and style.
I was recently on a Hanse.. 50 footer new....the construction details look good , the design was professional Judel Vrolik., but the style was stark..all square corners...looked like an IKEA flat pack interior with a snub nosed bow requiring a fold out anchor contraption.

As Landlubber stated...its a buyers market these days...you should be able to purchase an already fit out, higher class production boat like an X Yacht for the same money as a Beneteau .

Drive a hard bargain.

And remember some of the Race boat classes, like the Farr 30, are being replaced by a new class. Top boats with top gear are going cheap. Speak with a good yacht broker and have cash in hand.

[Tantalus]

Good advice, thanks. Although I want good sailing abilities, I will mostly cruise, not race.

[michael pierzga]

The advantage to a race boat is that the equipment level and build specs are always high. of course there is some compromise with deck layout and interior volume. Low interior volume, complex deck layout and a deep keel are the prime reasons that older race boats sell cheap.

Mumm 36
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/Mumm-High-Performance-Racing-Sloop-2071470/Bremerton/WA/United-States

and a Mumm 30

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Mumm-30-2286898/Barcelona/Spain


Ill bet you could knock ten grand off those prices and walk away with a nice boat.

of course New Zealand is a different region...there might not be so many boats desperate for new owners.

[Landlubber]

Tantalus, have a look on Google in the USA, money is very short there and boats for sale a plenty, buy overseas, sail for as long as you want to and forget duty unless you wish to take her home.
You are in a seriously good position to buy, be ruthless and you will save a lot, go in for half of what they are asking and chances are it will still be yours, there is VERY little real cash about and plenty of people loosing their homes will gladly get rid of the boat to save the home or business......take advantage if the situation while you too can do so, it will only be a limited time that you have cash to spare too, as the world is changing rapidly, buying a good quality live sea aboard boat is a good investment.

[Landlubber]

...also remember, the new boat will require a considerable amount of cash to get it ready to cruise the world, about 20 to 50K.....

[michael pierzga]

Look for one of these....Swan 36....Last fall I saw a nice one sell for 65 grand in Spain. This is a first class , Frers designed, high spec, go anywhere boat

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/Nautor-Swan-36-116-2179241/Antigua-%26-Barbuda

[Tantalus]

98k US & tax & duty & delivery & exchange rate @ around .77 - all for a boat launched in 1987? I don't think so!

[Tantalus]

Or 1989?

[Tantalus]

Another question: main sail furling - in-mast or in-boom? What is best and why?

[michael pierzga]

In boom furling is a pain in the ass. Ive sailed a few hundred thousand miles with the stuff and wouldn't touch it for my own boat. Torn luff tapes and blown out battens cost big money to repair and will constantly plague you. . When the sail is rolled you cant perform simple maitence like new tell tales or batten tension, the sail gets wet on the mandrel and molds or corrodes the mandrel, leech lines are difficult to arrange and use...........................

In mast is more reliable and easier to use.

Both rely on buttons and electro gizmos to work.

Nothing wrong with a well thought out conventional slab reefing system on a small boat.

If I had money to waste on electro gizmos it would be a pair of electric winch's. They are very versatile..lifting a man aloft...hauling kedge anchors, lifting tenders, sheeting sails, rolling the genoa, hoisting sails..........


Oh and Id say that swan 36 is stuck in Antigua...subtract 15 grand right away. Also look for yacht stuck in Hawaii.


Luff tape damage at radar height

[Crag Cay]

In Boom furling is brilliant. Just requires some simple understanding and care and then it's hassle free.

I've sailed for years with a very early version of the Danish Sailtainer and it's so easy on a 36ft boat. No electrics or anything complicated - and there is no comparison between the ease of use of boom furling and slap reefing (even with batt cars, Dutchmen systems, etc, etc). The latest developments (especially Schaefer and Leisure Furl) are even better.

Boom furling also gives you a proper fully battened, full roach mainsail.

I always think boom furling is a bit like windvanes; there's countless people who will tell you that windvanes can't do this, or you will have problems with that, and that an autopilot is so much simpler. But 30 years on, my Monitor self steering together with the In-boom reefing and have proved that (in the right hands), they are amongst the best features on the boat I sail.

[michael pierzga]

In Boom furling is brilliant. Just requires some simple understanding and care and then it's hassle free.

I've sailed for years with a very early version of the Danish Sailtainer and it's so easy on a 36ft boat. No electrics or anything complicated - and there is no comparison between the ease of use of boom furling and slap reefing (even with batt cars, Dutchmen systems, etc, etc). The latest developments (especially Schaefer and Leisure Furl) are even better.

Boom furling also gives you a proper fully battened, full roach mainsail.

I always think boom furling is a bit like windvanes; there's countless people who will tell you that windvanes can't do this, or you will have problems with that, and that an autopilot is so much simpler. But 30 years on, my Monitor self steering together with the In-boom reefing and have proved that (in the right hands), they are amongst the best features on the boat I sail.

Full battened full roach leach mainsails are nice but overrated on a cruising boat.


How does your mainsail handle batten compression load at the luff tape batten pocket interface ? Something new ? When you jibe the mainsail huge load is transmitted from batten to pocket at the luff as it snaps from port to stb jibe.
Motoring with a full main in a seaway will destroy the luff pockets as the main slats back and forth and the compression cannot be transferred into a batten car luff track .

Do you have leach line run down the luff..if so how does the roller compensate for this leach line purchase and jammer BUMP in the rolled luff stack diameter ? and keep halyard tension from crushing it on the boom ? If the leach line increases the roll diameter you have a short tight luff and a long loose leach. A Roller boom must stack the sail evenly leach and luff.

I must put a man in a chair and hoist to the leach to tension . Not fun at night with the third reef.

How do you control mold formation from a wet horizontally furled main in the boom ? My sail looks old after a year.

How do you control chafe on the reefed main leach and luff as it saws on the side of the boom when you work, reefed, to windward in a seaway ?

How do you reef and " Boom Up" to keep the boom end from dragging thru the back of waves ? Ive never met a system that allows you to alter the geometry of boom height to suite sea conditions.

How do you set the storm tri ? Do you carry a separate track ?

And I can assure you that when something goes wrong with the boom furler and you must drop, at sea, the uncontrolled luff mainsail with full battens on deck, that you have a science project on you hands. The last time I had to cut the carbon battens in half with an angle grinder and remove in two pieces to control the loose main on deck. Expensive day and the next 2 thousand miles without a mainsail.

You wont sell me one. The whole system is an expensive lightweight steamroller marketed to folks who dont know how to correctly pull in a slab reef.

[Perm Stress]

Nothing will beat moderate roach main with proper slab reefing system with luff sliders and full length battens + good lazy jacks for easy of use, reliability, and control if something goes wrong.
From my experience, in-boom sail is somewhere in between of in-mast and conventional in terms of efficiency; for so long as everything is OK, I did not find much problems of handling either of them even on 50-footers. When something DOES go wrong, My order of preference would be conventional with sliders, conventional with luff tape, in-boom, in-mast.
As previously noted, uncontrolled in-boom sail on deck is BIG problem; hovewer, uncontrolled sail aloft is certainly BIGGER. And if something goes wrong with in-mast partly rolled... the only way to get rid of it will be someone with good knife on the halyard; and new sail afterward.
As to "overrated" roach on cruising boat: negative roach of in-mast vs positive roach of in-boom or normal easily could be ~15...20% of sail area on same length spars.
I not even talk about efficiency from the beam reach up -the closer to wind you go, the more dramatic is the difference in pointing, ease of helming and consistent speed.
Unless in-mast has rather long vertical battens, the profile shape is nothing to speak about.
Very important and often not mentioned point is the mainsail chord to mast diameter ratio. As a rule of thumb, a strip along the mast ~1-2 mast diameters wide could be considered as "lost" for forward drive. With negative roach, this strip make dramatically bigger proportion of mainsail area.
Just my 3 cents.

[mark775]

I don't think he heard you Lubber. You tried.

[BATAAN]

In boom furling is a pain in the ass. Ive sailed a few hundred thousand miles with the stuff and wouldn't touch it for my own boat. Torn luff tapes and blown out battens cost big money to repair and will constantly plague you. . When the sail is rolled you cant perform simple maitence like new tell tales or batten tension, the sail gets wet on the mandrel and molds or corrodes the mandrel, leech lines are difficult to arrange and use...........................

In mast is more reliable and easier to use.

Both rely on buttons and electro gizmos to work.

Nothing wrong with a well thought out conventional slab reefing system on a small boat.

If I had money to waste on electro gizmos it would be a pair of electric winch's. They are very versatile..lifting a man aloft...hauling kedge anchors, lifting tenders, sheeting sails, rolling the genoa, hoisting sails..........


Oh and Id say that swan 36 is stuck in Antigua...subtract 15 grand right away. Also look for yacht stuck in Hawaii.


Luff tape damage at radar height
Also yacht stuck in any far downwind port. Both sides of Panama and Australia/New Zealand come to mind. People get far away from home, realize it's upwind to go back, and leave the boat. Eventually it gets sold cheap.
These are often fully-equipped, half-way through their dream cruise vessels of all types, ultra-modern expensive or tarred antique, but seaworthy enough to get this far.

[Crag Cay]

The original question was from someone considering a 32 or 33 foot boat. All the models he said were being considered were lightweight, everyday boats. One of the 'givens' was that they wanted to have some form of mainsail furling and were enquiring as to the merits of either in-mast or in-boom. My comments were addressed to purely this issue. However I will reply to some of the other points.


Full battened full roach leach mainsails are nice but overrated on a cruising boat.
We're not talking about 'fat head' sails here or anything fancy. Just a well cut, roached cruising main as opposed to the hollow, negative roach found on many in-mast furling systems. It's a simple advantage found with in-boom systems.

How does your mainsail handle batten compression load at the luff tape batten pocket interface ? Something new ? When you jibe the mainsail huge load is transmitted from batten to pocket at the luff as it snaps from port to stb jibe.
The battens on my system do load the luf tape, but they have worked well for twenty years. The Schaefer system does have a system to transfer the loads directly from the battens to the mast. But we are only considering a 32 foot boat here, which is smaller and lighter than mine on which a basic system works just fine.

Motoring with a full main in a seaway will destroy the luff pockets as the main slats back and forth and the compression cannot be transferred into a batten car luff track .
Then don't do it.

Do you have leach line run down the luff..
Leach line running down the luff ???

How do you control mold formation from a wet horizontally furled main in the boom ? My sail looks old after a year.
Perhaps you have a problem in the Med, but in northern climes mould is no more of a problem than with a furled genoa.

How do you control chafe on the reefed main leach and luff as it saws on the side of the boom when you work, reefed, to windward in a seaway ?
The 'slot' at the top of the bom is very wide (boom is almost open topped) and the mainsail doesn't touch the boom.

How do you reef and " Boom Up" to keep the boom end from dragging thru the back of waves ? Ive never met a system that allows you to alter the geometry of boom height to suite sea conditions.

And I can assure you that when something goes wrong with the boom furler and you must drop, at sea, the uncontrolled luff mainsail with full battens on deck, that you have a science project on you hands. The last time I had to cut the carbon battens in half with an angle grinder and remove in two pieces to control the loose main on deck. Expensive day and the next 2 thousand miles without a mainsail.
We're considering a system for a small 32ft boat for family sailing. If you don't want one for ocean sailing, then that's fine. But this is not the situation on which the original poster was seeking information. The same with comments about tri-sails; but for your information you can put in three, very good deep reefs in with far less hassle than the third reef ever goes in on slab reefing, so the chance of needing a storm tri-sail on a lightweight 32footer, in this situation, is slim. But a separate track is the solution, as it is the best solutions with all rigs.

You wont sell me one. The whole system is an expensive lightweight steamroller marketed to folks who dont know how to correctly pull in a slab reef.
The real advantages of in-boom furling isn't really the reefing but the stowing of the sail. It's away with it's cover on long before those with a conventional main have managed to find the sail ties.

[Tantalus]

Thanks Crag.,
great comments. I'll store this info in the back of my mind with all the other info swirling around there.... I'm still in two minds about selling my launch and getting back into sailing.... If she sells soon, it'll help me make a decision. However, we had another great 2 days away this last weekend, and will keep doing so 'til she sells. (Or not!).
Keep cruising...
Pierre

[cwyckham]

It would help to understand what you want to use the boat for. Many people have given advice on what would be best for an ocean crossing blue water cruiser. However, that's not much help if you want to sail around the Hauraki Gulf on day sails with the occasional overnight thrown in.

You also want to consider the other parties involved. For example, your sailing partner may find interior space and comfort to be critical, while you favour sailing performance. It's obviously important that everybody feels comfortable aboard, or you won't be going out nearly as much as you would like!

Finally, I wouldn't necessarily put furling main on my list of must haves for any boat. In fact, I'd rather stay away. It's more expensive, more complicated, and in the case of in-mast will lead to some goofy sail shapes. All this would be worth it for a short-handed family cruising boat if it weren't for the fact that slab reefing is just so darned effective, simple, and cheap. The trick is to lead all lines back to the cockpit (which should be done on all the boats you're looking at anyways). With single line or double line reefing led back, you can easily reef single-handed. I can reef my Niagara 35 with double line reefing in well under a minute on my own.

Good Luck! You live in a fantastic sailing area.

Chris

We've decided to sell our launch and get back into sailing. I need help deciding on what to get. Am looking at a new Bavaria 32; Jeanneau 33i; Beneteau 32; Hanse 32 & the HUnter 33.
Important criteria for us:
furling main & jib, auto helm, electric anchoring, head room, reasonable size bed, hot water, spray dodger, bimini, price. Along with the essential sailing abilities - obviously.
Any thoughts/ suggestions please?

[Tantalus]

Thanks for the advice, Chris. First of all, let me add a few more points: we won't be doing any major blue water trips, but will cruise for more than a single night at a time. We usually do 8 to 10 day trips in our current boat, Tantalus. The areas we cruise will be coastal / island hoping as far north as The Bay of Islands, east to Great Barrier Island, south around the Corramandel to the Mercury Islands and Whitianga, Whangamata and Tauranga. Although the range of boats I'm looking at are " small lightweight" boats, I'm confident they will suffice. I also agree that slab reefing is the way to go. Just my wife and I, so 32ft is adequate. Comfort - headroom and bed size etc are important. Another reason I'm looking at these particular models is their price and availability here as new boats delivered in Auckland... Exchange rate make them quite attractive. Plus the added joy of a brand new boat....
So far, I'm zeroing in on the Jeanneau Sun Oddesy 33i.comments please?
Pierre

[cwyckham]

Thanks for the advice, Chris. First of all, let me add a few more points: we won't be doing any major blue water trips, but will cruise for more than a single night at a time. We usually do 8 to 10 day trips in our current boat, Tantalus. The areas we cruise will be coastal / island hoping as far north as The Bay of Islands, east to Great Barrier Island, south around the Corramandel to the Mercury Islands and Whitianga, Whangamata and Tauranga. Although the range of boats I'm looking at are " small lightweight" boats, I'm confident they will suffice. I also agree that slab reefing is the way to go. Just my wife and I, so 32ft is adequate. Comfort - headroom and bed size etc are important. Another reason I'm looking at these particular models is their price and availability here as new boats delivered in Auckland... Exchange rate make them quite attractive. Plus the added joy of a brand new boat....
So far, I'm zeroing in on the Jeanneau Sun Oddesy 33i.comments please?
Pierre

Well, I think you're looking at the right kind of boats, then. I know the area a little bit (lived in Auckland for a year and spent a week sailing around the Hauraki Gulf), and I think it's actually very similar to the area I live in here in Canada. The perfect boat is a lightweight, production coastal cruiser. If you end up with an ex race boat it may be too spartan for what you want, and a bluewater boat will be too expensive.

Around here, there is a very good market in used boats, and I wouldn't dream of spending the extra dollars for a new boat. However, markets are very different in different parts of the world, and I'm sure you're aware of what's for sale at your local yacht broker or on trademe. If you want to go new, more power to you. You won't have to spend all your days cursing the ***** who owned the boat before you and all the goofy things he did to your poor boat.

For the type of sailing you're doing, I wouldn't worry too much about which boat is stronger or faster, necessarily. I'd definitely do some research into resale value and quality of build, of course. After that, what's most important is just what feels right. I'd just go and sail each one (with your wife, of course), and you'll just know. Internet research is for narrowing down a short list and getting rid of any that are known to be poorly constructed. After that, it's more like dating. You just have to let your heart tell you which one's the boat for you.

I've never been on a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 33i, but the SunFast 35 I was on for a few days last year was a really nice boat.

Chris

[Tantalus]

Hmmm, I've admired the Northshore Fisher motor sailers for many, many years, and now a 34 ketch has come on the market.......
Thoughts?

[Tantalus]

Actually a Fisher 30, not the 34

[michael pierzga]

The original question was from someone considering a 32 or 33 foot boat. All the models he said were being considered were lightweight, everyday boats. One of the 'givens' was that they wanted to have some form of mainsail furling and were enquiring as to the merits of either in-mast or in-boom. My comments were addressed to purely this issue. However I will reply to some of the other points.


Full battened full roach leach mainsails are nice but overrated on a cruising boat.
We're not talking about 'fat head' sails here or anything fancy. Just a well cut, roached cruising main as opposed to the hollow, negative roach found on many in-mast furling systems. It's a simple advantage found with in-boom systems.

How does your mainsail handle batten compression load at the luff tape batten pocket interface ? Something new ? When you jibe the mainsail huge load is transmitted from batten to pocket at the luff as it snaps from port to stb jibe.
The battens on my system do load the luf tape, but they have worked well for twenty years. The Schaefer system does have a system to transfer the loads directly from the battens to the mast. But we are only considering a 32 foot boat here, which is smaller and lighter than mine on which a basic system works just fine.

Motoring with a full main in a seaway will destroy the luff pockets as the main slats back and forth and the compression cannot be transferred into a batten car luff track .
Then don't do it.

Do you have leach line run down the luff..
Leach line running down the luff ???

How do you control mold formation from a wet horizontally furled main in the boom ? My sail looks old after a year.
Perhaps you have a problem in the Med, but in northern climes mould is no more of a problem than with a furled genoa.

How do you control chafe on the reefed main leach and luff as it saws on the side of the boom when you work, reefed, to windward in a seaway ?
The 'slot' at the top of the bom is very wide (boom is almost open topped) and the mainsail doesn't touch the boom.

How do you reef and " Boom Up" to keep the boom end from dragging thru the back of waves ? Ive never met a system that allows you to alter the geometry of boom height to suite sea conditions.

And I can assure you that when something goes wrong with the boom furler and you must drop, at sea, the uncontrolled luff mainsail with full battens on deck, that you have a science project on you hands. The last time I had to cut the carbon battens in half with an angle grinder and remove in two pieces to control the loose main on deck. Expensive day and the next 2 thousand miles without a mainsail.
We're considering a system for a small 32ft boat for family sailing. If you don't want one for ocean sailing, then that's fine. But this is not the situation on which the original poster was seeking information. The same with comments about tri-sails; but for your information you can put in three, very good deep reefs in with far less hassle than the third reef ever goes in on slab reefing, so the chance of needing a storm tri-sail on a lightweight 32footer, in this situation, is slim. But a separate track is the solution, as it is the best solutions with all rigs.

You wont sell me one. The whole system is an expensive lightweight steamroller marketed to folks who dont know how to correctly pull in a slab reef.
The real advantages of in-boom furling isn't really the reefing but the stowing of the sail. It's away with it's cover on long before those with a conventional main have managed to find the sail ties.

Well Crag...you seem to be happy with your roller. I use it seven days a week. How many miles have you done ? My observations come from 250,000 miles with a roller boom..
I can reef or flake, stow, cover a main with one hundred times less effort than stripping the beast off the boom, pushing it thru customs , then shipping it air freight to the nearest sailmaker with facilities for sewing on a new 30 meter luff tape.

[Tantalus]

What about the Varianta 44? Any comments / thoughts / opinions?

[Tantalus]

€84k for a new 44' yacht? Hmmm, I like

[Tantalus]

Done a heap of browsing on the web and YouTube etc. And cannot find any reason to not consider one of thes! I like the double aft cabin version and will sacrifice the mid- ship berths for an island berth instead of the v berth up forward. Any thoughts?