Marine Gas Turbines

[peter fisher]

Hi

I have had a go at this a few times and failed, so here we go again. My name is Pete Fisher resident in the UK, I am part of a team that have been given a task as part of a University Course to study Material Sciences. I have a task of designing a powerplant and drive system for a Fast Patrol Boat. I am trying to locate on the Web sites that will help me understand Marine Gas Turbines for small Craft (40/50 feet) and Water Jet propulsion systems, ideally if this combination has ever been designed and implemented. Any of you chaps got any good Web sites you can point me at or even tell me what I am considering is unfeasible.

Regards
Pete

[Willallison]

At a very basic level, take a look at http://travel.howstuffworks.com/turbine.htm
It only covers turbines for planes, but I believe the guts are essentially the same...

Uffu Fox long ago advocated the use of turines in even quite small craft - as small as 25 ft - and there is some good info in his Seamanlike sense in powerboats. Somewhat outdated, but worthy of a look nonetheless

[yipster]

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/ngnsim.html
if it is not of help it may be fun to play with :D

found good links using the search button above http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=652&highlight=turbine
and http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=449&highlight=turbine
and what a beauty this "little" ob is. link went but like more specs, roll's eh?
http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=92
Engine: Allison Rolls Royce 250 Gas Turbine
Power: 320 hp @ 52,000 rpm
Output RPM: 6,000 rpm
Torque: 425 ft lbs @ 2,000 rpm
Compressor speed: 54,000 rpm
Fuel: Diesel, Kerosene, Jet A
Lubrication: Dry-sump/ 3.5 quarts turbine oil

[Ken Baker]

Peter,

Try contacting some of the maritime schools/colleges. I know Maine Maritime Academy in the US teaches operations courses on gas turbines so maybe some of the UK ones do as well. They may not be able to help with design info but maybe can point you in the right direction.

Good luck.

Ken

[ClarkT]

Search around for a paper by Dean Schleicher or Cardrock about Turbine installation in a Navy test boat. I'm pretty sure it was published by SNAME in the late 1990's.

[Tad]

Peter;

Frank Mulder Mulder Design (http://www.mulderdesign.nl) is the expert on using gas turbines in high-speed yachts. Also Gary Grant in the USA, Gary Grant (http://www.amsgrant.com) has done some work with smaller gas turbines. I believe the Finish Masmar 75J is aimed at just the type project you are looking at. The only place I can think of where gas turbines and waterjets are currently used is in high-speed cat passanger ferries in the far east. These are using Textron Lycoming turbines. Allison Gas Turbine is or was into some marine installations. Another name is Allen Industries Inc in Seattle, specialist in gas turbines starting with unlimited hydroplanes. I have an old Boating article on a Fountain 42' with a pair of RR Gnome H-1000s running through Mercruiser drives. Destriero was designed by Donald Blount, contact his office for info, three GE LM 1600s, almost 50,000 HP.

Good luck, Tad

[Willallison]

I have an old Boating article on a Fountain 42' with a pair of RR Gnome H-1000s running through Mercruiser drives

I too have an old article, from "Motorboat & Yachting" - this ones about a cat built by Howard Arneson, powered I think form memory by a turbine from a bell helicopter driving thru one of his surface drives....

[yipster]

Tad, i have some articles by Frank Mulder, good to bring him up but you left the "www" out, its: http://www.mulderdesign.nl/
as said before i also liked your writings, great stuff but where did it go?

[Tad]

Thanks Yip;

I fixed the links, but see I should have looked at the links further up the thread before jumping in. Small (relatively) gas turbines coupled to waterjets seems to be a rarity? I have no idea why, but look forward to finding out! Is it gear train problems, lack of availability, who knows?

So many interesting projects, and so little time.

I lost my previous site through foolishness on my part, but I will shortly have two new sites up and running. If you want a job done, get busy, so I'm learning html and building my own. Also I want to support the .ca registry, so it's to be tadroberts.ca and passagemakerlite.com I'll have something up there shortly.


Tad

[SailDesign]

Also look in Peter du Cane's book "High Speed Small Craft". Lots and LOTS of good info in there, both turbine and waterjet.

Steve

[Corpus Skipper]

powered I think form memory by a turbine from a bell helicopter

This is where your "marine" gas turbines will all be from, due to light weight. Avco-Lycoming T40-B engines are used by the Navy in LCACs (Landing Craft, Air Cushion). Larger ships are powered by General Electric LM (Land/Marine) 2500s, with Allison 501-K17/K34s for generation. The now decommissioned PHMs (hydrofoils) also used the LM 2500. None used jet propulsion, except for the PHMs diesel auxiliary engines for hull-born use (funny, huh?). Excellent propulsion choice, very reliable, but WAY expensive!!! :D Direct drive would be more efficient, but if draft is a concern, jet drive would be possible. These engines (except for the LM 2500) have a PTO on the compressor end and can easily be coupled to the drive system of your choice. By the way, I was a Navy Gas Turbine Systems Technician, so this info. is all good. Good luck!

[peter fisher]

At a very basic level, take a look at http://travel.howstuffworks.com/turbine.htm
It only covers turbines for planes, but I believe the guts are essentially the same...

Uffu Fox long ago advocated the use of turines in even quite small craft - as small as 25 ft - and there is some good info in his Seamanlike sense in powerboats. Somewhat outdated, but worthy of a look nonetheless


Thanks for the reply, I have had a great response and some good advice.
thanks
pete

[peter fisher]

At a very basic level, take a look at http://travel.howstuffworks.com/turbine.htm
It only covers turbines for planes, but I believe the guts are essentially the same...

Uffu Fox long ago advocated the use of turines in even quite small craft - as small as 25 ft - and there is some good info in his Seamanlike sense in powerboats. Somewhat outdated, but worthy of a look nonetheless


Will

Thanks for the response.
pete

[peter fisher]

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/ngnsim.html
if it is not of help it may be fun to play with :D

found good links using the search button above http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=652&highlight=turbine
and http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=449&highlight=turbine
and what a beauty this "little" ob is. link went but like more specs, roll's eh?
http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=92
Engine: Allison Rolls Royce 250 Gas Turbine
Power: 320 hp @ 52,000 rpm
Output RPM: 6,000 rpm
Torque: 425 ft lbs @ 2,000 rpm
Compressor speed: 54,000 rpm
Fuel: Diesel, Kerosene, Jet A
Lubrication: Dry-sump/ 3.5 quarts turbine oil

Hi thanks for the input, this all makes great reading and helps.
pete

[peter fisher]

Peter,

Try contacting some of the maritime schools/colleges. I know Maine Maritime Academy in the US teaches operations courses on gas turbines so maybe some of the UK ones do as well. They may not be able to help with design info but maybe can point you in the right direction.

Good luck.

Ken

Ken

Thanks for the input
cheers pete

[peter fisher]

Search around for a paper by Dean Schleicher or Cardrock about Turbine installation in a Navy test boat. I'm pretty sure it was published by SNAME in the late 1990's.

Clark

ta thanks for the input
pete

[peter fisher]

Peter;

Frank Mulder Mulder Design (http://www.mulderdesign.nl) is the expert on using gas turbines in high-speed yachts. Also Gary Grant in the USA, Gary Grant (http://www.amsgrant.com) has done some work with smaller gas turbines. I believe the Finish Masmar 75J is aimed at just the type project you are looking at. The only place I can think of where gas turbines and waterjets are currently used is in high-speed cat passanger ferries in the far east. These are using Textron Lycoming turbines. Allison Gas Turbine is or was into some marine installations. Another name is Allen Industries Inc in Seattle, specialist in gas turbines starting with unlimited hydroplanes. I have an old Boating article on a Fountain 42' with a pair of RR Gnome H-1000s running through Mercruiser drives. Destriero was designed by Donald Blount, contact his office for info, three GE LM 1600s, almost 50,000 HP.

Good luck, Tad

Tad

thanks a bunch
pete

[peter fisher]

Also look in Peter du Cane's book "High Speed Small Craft". Lots and LOTS of good info in there, both turbine and waterjet.

Steve


Steve

Thanks for the advice
pete

[peter fisher]

I too have an old article, from "Motorboat & Yachting" - this ones about a cat built by Howard Arneson, powered I think form memory by a turbine from a bell helicopter driving thru one of his surface drives....

Will
Thankyou for the input
pete

[peter fisher]

This is where your "marine" gas turbines will all be from, due to light weight. Avco-Lycoming T40-B engines are used by the Navy in LCACs (Landing Craft, Air Cushion). Larger ships are powered by General Electric LM (Land/Marine) 2500s, with Allison 501-K17/K34s for generation. The now decommissioned PHMs (hydrofoils) also used the LM 2500. None used jet propulsion, except for the PHMs diesel auxiliary engines for hull-born use (funny, huh?). Excellent propulsion choice, very reliable, but WAY expensive!!! :D Direct drive would be more efficient, but if draft is a concern, jet drive would be possible. These engines (except for the LM 2500) have a PTO on the compressor end and can easily be coupled to the drive system of your choice. By the way, I was a Navy Gas Turbine Systems Technician, so this info. is all good. Good luck!

Craig, thanks
pete

[thodge75]

Hey Peter, my name is Tony Hodge and I am fascinated with marine turbines. Is it posiible to fabricate turbines for radio controlled boats?

[yipster]

http://www.wren-turbines.com/mwexplode.jpg
exploded view ofa small 7lbs thrust wren-turbine (http://www.wren-turbines.com )
there are other brands too and they are not uncommen in RC planes.
sometimes you find them on e-bay and a deeper search may even show model turbine boats..

[thodge75]

I think the diagram is helpful. It is also an insiration. Now the next step is to get the materials and I hope I can gain some ground sometime. Thanks for refering me to ebay about the turbines. I will check it out.

[D'ARTOIS]

www.turbinemarine.com

[thodge75]

Thanks D'artois for posting the turbine marine website. I really enjoyed it. Now, I am hungry for more.

[navy boi]

I haven't followed the thread But when i saw that you where dealing with gasturbines for marine applications i would like to name a swedish company that works with (among other things) gasturbine control systems, www.nira.se.
The system is in use in a couple of ships, fast going.

NIRA is the company that developed the Volvo Penta EDC and started CPAC systems that now makes the VP EVC.

Maybe you have this all covered already:

[thodge75]

Thanks for posting this site to me. If there is anything I can do just give a shout.

[yipster]

http://www.texs.com/magazine/images/Merc_turbine.jpg
http://www.texs.com/magazine/tsg_13.htm
searching the net for turbines i see Jeff placed this link allreadeady 3 years ago. running on jetA or diesel most turbines only seem to be more thirsty than diesels at stationair. water injection isnt used much since jets hate to cary extra load, steam flashing is used however forexample only when jump jets start and land since it considerably improves thrust. how is that with boat turbines?

[yipster]

Arneson (http://www.arneson-industries.com/Turbine%20Applications.htm) industries has developed a reliable proven package for turbine engine applications

[thodge75]

Whoever sent the e-mail about the Arneson surface drives with turbine application, I thank for sharing my interest for gas turbines.

[CDBarry]

An interesting item for a student study is a steam injected gas turbine. There was a research project at NSWCCD a while back on doing this to LM25000s. An ASNE paper covered this effort: Urbach, H., Garman, R., Knauss, D., Watts, J., Dwan, T., Mitchell, E., and Howes, C., “A Steam-Augmented Gas Turbine with Reheat Combustor for Surface Ships”, Naval Engineers Journal, 106:3, American Society of Naval Engineers, Alexandria VA, 1994

[yipster]

CDBarry thank you, i asked for the papers.

[yipster]

no reply from the asked papers, just like to show 300 hp, 60 kilos including gears. but way expensive eh? maybe adopt a 2e hand? than again they like running wot, but hey, i love those baby's :p

[thodge75]

Thanks for the information. I will be looking the page.