Kayak - trimaran, trying to find the best first toy

[RLHornbeck]

I have been lurking for a while but finally have caught the bug. I will be starting a few projects soon as I never just partially jump in to anything I go full bore. After years of power boat day cruisers and a Hobie 18 that I brought back from dead (had been run over by a backhoe) I have found myself wanting three different boats to replace the two I have now. They will be of the following concepts: one for small lake sailing / kayaking, one just big enough for one night camping excursions (small sailing trimaran) and lastly a large trailerable motorsailer (again maybe a trimaran but this will have lots of influence from the wife so not yet time to tackle).

At this point I am going to start building what I feel will be the quickest to build and start enjoying, the kayak / trimaran. The problem is that I have found many post that turn kayaks into trimarans but none that put the emphasis the other way, a trimaran that can also be a kayak. I like to get out on the water mainly to enjoy the water not to put myself through a workout paddling.

After searching through post after post and finding many kayaks that can be turned into trimarans I have located something close, the CLC Shearwater 17 or Chesapeake 17 with the Sailrig. I have a few questions though. Can you put a more aggressive rig on either of these? (Suggestions on this if possible) Would it hold up to the stress as they do not seem to have re-enforcements on the kayak or would you just bury the ama's? What about the leeboard, would it not be better to have a dagger centered with a smooth bottom “plug” for the hole when not sailing? What other improvements could be reasonably suggested? Are there any other boats I have not considered that I should look at?

I know I am new to this but want to make sure I get started with the best plans for my style of boating. I would appreciate any suggestions.

Ryan

[peterAustralia]

I am a bit confused as to what you want to do

a cross between a kayak and a trimaran?

this is the closest that I can think of
http://www.triaksports.com/

these are good, a bit more home built though
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/

for single outrigger
ninja pro google this - you can buy a kit.

I have more links for single outriggers, but may not be your thing

also google smalltrimarans.com
lots of links

[peterAustralia]

also trilars by Jim Mikalak

google trilars seems a very nice boat

[RLHornbeck]

peter,

Thanks for the response.

To clear things up a bit what I am trying to do is make a kayak that has a removable attachment to turn it into a trimaran (like adding the CLC sailrig to a kayak), but I what the performance of the trimaran to be the main focus.

[Petros]

there are several articles in the Duckworth on-line magazine about such projects, like this one here:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/10/projects/seaclipper/index.htm

There are others too, looks like fun.

[peterAustralia]

Hmmm

not easy requirement
here is a canoe that can be turned into a trimaran

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/ostlind/a18-t/index.htm

the issue is that the kayak has pretty small volume, and a high performance trimaran will have a lot of volume for the center hull

I have seen is done, with a CLC kayak but with a pair of very large outriggers. The trouble is that more weight and effort goes into building the outriggers than the original kayak. The example I can recall, each outrigger was about twice the volume of the central 17ft kayak, where exactly I saw it... hmm some yahoo group somewhere....maybe proa_file

[Manfred.pech]

peter,

Thanks for the response.

To clear things up a bit what I am trying to do is make a kayak that has a removable attachment to turn it into a trimaran (like adding the CLC sailrig to a kayak), but I what the performance of the trimaran to be the main focus.

Hope, the performance is acceptable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NzY-EcSfp0

[RLHornbeck]

I have found close to what I had in mind in this rig, but I have no more information on it other than this picture. It looks to me to be a CLC kayak with the "sailrig" attachment on it. What is different than any other designs I have seen so far is the rigging. If anyone has or knows where to find more information on this kayak please let me know.

Thanks
Ryan

http://www.eyeinhand.com/Galleries/Albums/StMichaels-2010/source/image/img_0098.jpg

[CutOnce]

The rig pictured looks like a much better effort than most I've seen. From the screecher sheet fairleads attachment points on the rear aka, it looks pretty large! Doubt you would use it going upwind, as it can't be sheeted very hard to the main.

I've always thought that providing some type of tramp between the akas would be a huge bonus to comfort, as sitting in the seat really restricts moving. That rules out foot pedal steering though. I guess as a more sailing-focused type I hate giving up tillers, and flat bladed kayak rudders are twitchy under sail at speeds higher than paddling.

I hate left handed paddles - they always remind me of my first outing in a racing kayak - immediate swim, as I've always used a right-handed paddle in whitewater. If I had started in the racing kayak I'd hate right handed ones.

Got to wonder a little bit about the leeboard and if the attachment is up to the loads possible.

Bet it moves pretty well on a broad reach! Be a nice Raider.

--
CutOnce

[RLHornbeck]

The leeboard has me a bit concerned as well. I had am thinking about a dagger board instead. There seems to be room, except it would be between your knees as you are seated.

The rudder i had not thought about. I will have to spend some time in research on that on how to make a better one for sailing that will still work well while paddling.

I like the idea of the tramps, but might have to raise the beams a bit as they will probably be in the water alot.

[Corley]

Ted Warren has a few designs for kayak/trimaran hybrids they look to have very good performance too.

http://www.warrenlightcraft.com/

[Manfred.pech]

Here is a review: http://www.cruisingworld.com/article.jsp?ID=1000079903

[RLHornbeck]

The Warren design looks nice, and really what I am looking to achieve. I would like to do this through the building process and not just purchase though.

The kayak pictured above was taken at MASCF this year if that helps anyone remember anything.

Thanks again
Ryan

[Doug Lord]

Ted Warren has a few designs for kayak/trimaran hybrids they look to have very good performance too.

http://www.warrenlightcraft.com/
====================
This is one really cool boat-thanks for the link!


click on image:

[Blacky]

look at: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/02/articles/curious/index.htm

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/02/articles/curious/withrig.jpg

[dylantorquerol]

My Dad and I built the CLC SHearwater double and are working on the sail kit. THe hopped-up one in the picture is the CLC Shearwater single most likely. That is a custom rig and the hull is carbon over okume instead of Fiberglass over okume.

[captainsideburn]

all though its really only a concept sketch would be awesome if someone made it reality

http://proafile.com/view/magazine/article/hypersprite_5.5_transporter

I love proafile :P

[upchurchmr]

The CLC sailrig allows you to remove the outriggers and sail and still have your kayak. It will just be a little bit heavier. Any rudder for sailing needs to be bigger than a kayaking rudder. Kayaks are fun because they are lite and easy to paddle. Adding anything that is heavier and in the way will make it a dog. Just take the sailrig off and have fun. The only criticism that I have seen about the CLC rig is that it does not easily tack. Probably a combination of leeboards too far forward and too small of a rudder. The Warren boat might have taken care of this with the fixed boards in the floats. The center board is what real single purpose boats use, its just going to be in the way when you take the rig off.

Don't expect anything to be perfect just get going.

The outriggers for the CLC are 100# displacement at the deck, don't expect to sail real fast or raise the center hull. Which means there is no reason for a much larger sail.

If you increase the size of the outriggers, beef up the cross arms to take the bigger load, beef up the hull to take the outriggers, add a bigger sail, with a bigger centerboard and rudder you will probably need to make the depth of the hull greater so you don't drive the bow underwater, etc., etc. At this point you just need to look at known designers Trimaran sail only designs, cause you just ruined the Kayak.

The wooden boat on the first page really looks good doesn't it?

Good luck

[koontzman]

I am a bit confused as to what you want to do

for single outrigger
ninja pro google this - you can buy a kit.

lots of links

Hi Peter. I've tried a couple of times now, and emails to the makers of the Ninja Pro come back undeliverable. Do you have any other info on these? Similar plans out there? Anyone who's got one etc?

thanks, Steve

[upchurchmr]

The CLC sailrig can be applied to just about any kayak. The amas have 100# displacement at the shearline, so is just a stabilized kayak, not able to fly the main hull. The standard sail was not designed by sailors, so if you want a kayak that can sail, it might be OK. If you want a sailboat from a kayak, get a better sail rig like the one above with the carbon mast and all the controls. The sailrig is generally criticised as being difficult to tack, the leeboards appear to be too far forward, one other issue is the typically straight keel line which retards tacking. Multihulls generally take some learning to tack well, but it is still possible. Its just that if you have other design issues it compounds the problems.

I really like the Warren tri, but there was a report of an Everglades Challange contestant who gave up before the first day, supposedly because that day was choppy and he complained that he was underwater all the time. Kayaks of all types have a very low freeboard.

If you watch the Ninja pro video you will realize that the amas are relatively small, the sailor has to continually back off the sail pressure to keep them above the water. When he is just on the edge of too much pressure there is a tremendous spray from both front and back akas which must really stop the boat. Larger amas would allow you to sail the boat to the potential of the sail rig. It is a really good looking boat though.

With all that said I still want one (kayak sailing trimaran) for my self. Just bigger amas, a good quality sail rig, center or daggerboard, and more freeboard (then it will not be a Kayak, I suppose).

It looks like great fun in a light weight package, but a very wet ride in a blow.

Marc

[peterAustralia]

to Kootz

in regards to an email address for the Ninja Pro people
I will send you an email address that 100 percent worked a few months back when I was getting permission to use the photos on my site

Jerome Watts is his name
i am sure he will have details

i am not able to say if things have changed in the time since I emailed him

I did hear through the grapevine that these boats were being production built in Brazil

check your private messages

[peterAustralia]

this was the email address that I used to get photo permission of Ninja Pro from my site

jeroen (at) g-forceyachts.com
substiture @ for (at) and remove the spaces and thats it
not sure if this is the same email address as you have been using

[peterAustralia]

hi

one last email
here are some more email addresses fro ninja pro

http://www.sail-the-difference.com/home/deutsch/kontakt/

as to other plans
wharram melanesia you can definatly buy plans
chris white dragonfly.. you used to be able to buy plans (do not know if things have changed)
Kurt Hughes has a fast small trimaran too

In some ways, putting together a few sheets of 6mm plywood, and making something long and sleek and doing dimensions by eye is a valid technique too

[koontzman]

hi

one last email
here are some more email addresses fro ninja pro

http://www.sail-the-difference.com/home/deutsch/kontakt/

as to other plans
wharram melanesia you can definatly buy plans
chris white dragonfly.. you used to be able to buy plans (do not know if things have changed)
Kurt Hughes has a fast small trimaran too

In some ways, putting together a few sheets of 6mm plywood, and making something long and sleek and doing dimensions by eye is a valid technique too

That's great!

I did email Jeroen, he thought I wanted to buy the molds....lol...so hopefully he'll get back to me with just info re: plans.

I'm also waiting on Chris White's email re: dragonfly.

I'm going to download some design software recommended elsewhere on this site and see what happens....