Budgeting the Build of a 35' steel sailboat; worthwhile costs vs. extravagance [Archive]

welder/fitter

09-12-2010, 01:50 PM

As no 2 boats are the same, no 2 builders have the same budget. Some budgets are more realistic than others, & where one is building effects the budget as much as what one builds. Still, some things remain a constant regardless of where one lives.

We all pay more for a Wire-fed rig(GMAW,FCAW) than we do for a simple stick welder(SMAW), and we all pay more for a DC stick welder than an AC welder(other than "home-built" units).

The plans we build to will cost us close to the same, regardless of where we are located, yet, the cost of plans from different designers can vary significantly.

So, what is a "worthwhile investment", in other words, you get what you paid for? What is extravagant, in other words, a luxury more than sensible expenditure?

For this thread, I'll suggest a steel sailboat of approx. 35feet(LOA) with the ability/ stores capacity to sail across any ocean. I'm not sure if we need to discuss "designer brands", other than a suggestion that "designer A's" plans are worth the extra cost, or "designer B's" boat requires more investment or skill for the manner of construction required(a possible example being radius hull?).

Some other parameters - please, add to them as they occur to you - could be that this is a one-off build, an area of suitable dimensions is available to you, there is no present structure on that property, power is available, water is available, you have 100 full work days available per year(your choice how many hours you work in each day), the nearest town with all needed equipment/materials and a marina with all launch facilities are within a 1 hour drive of your build location.

You grew up with a family sailboat - a 1974 mass-produced Plastic27 - and you are going to build a steel boat, rather than buy one(of any description), because you've lost touch with reality, are having a mid-life crisis(whatever reason). To limit some areas; you are looking for stock plans from a qualified designer, and you want to build as much as you can yourself, preferably from start to finish, but are starting with a lack of associated skills. You plan to take your wife sailing around the world with your two small kids, dog died last month/cat ran away. You want to build a pro-quality boat, for the least amount of money.

Nothing need be in order, launch method before plans, for all I care. Let's address a question/topic, then, after 6 to 12 responses(depending on topic & variety of opinions) move on to another consideration.

But, let me start with plans. Prices range from about US$600 to US$3,500 . Does it matter? Go cheap or choose the plans which you are most attracted to? Whose plans are easiest for an amateur to build to? Who's are a significant challenge? Is it a reasonable investment to buy cutting files? A pre-cut kit?(I can already see Wynand's response!lol) Or is that extravagant?

Mike

gonzo

09-12-2010, 03:32 PM

welder/fitter

09-12-2010, 03:52 PM

To start with, a pro quality boat needs a pro to build it.

I don't know about that; I've seen some pretty nicely built one-offs before. But, your point is well-taken. So, that is another consideration for the described-above builder, being; is it worth the investment to hire an experienced individual to assist and/or monitor the builder? I'll put gonzo down as a definite "yes" and I tend to agree that it is money well spent.

apex1

09-12-2010, 04:03 PM

is it worth the investment to hire an experienced individual to assist and/or monitor the builder? I'll put gonzo down as a definite "yes" and I tend to agree that it is money well spent.

I would say, it is money saved, not spent, at least in the end.
A "well done and forgotten" job is always cheaper, than a second and third attempt. (with a pro to correct in the end)

My 2c

Richard

Lampy08

09-12-2010, 07:25 PM

I think picking a reputable designer, “qualified” or not checking out his/her work before you spend dollar one would be the best way to spend your time and money to begin with. The same thing goes with any welding coach.
I can’t speak for metal boats having not really built one (ok there was that attempt with some aluminium flashing when I was 12…) but in the wooden boat building shows nearly every year amateur built boats are in the top three, often first, and a lot of “Professional” builds don’t even get mentioned. Don’t rule out the home builders ability, some do better than some professionals.
I had some aluminium handrails delivered here, designed by Coast Guard engineers, welded by professional welders working for Coast Guard and inspected and certified by the same engineers that designed them. When the helicopter slung them in the welds literally popped apart when they set them down. They were sent back to town and re-welded and sent back here only to find they don’t fit the deck they were designed for. They are still here if any one wants to come out and look at “professional” welding and engineering.

Dennis

pdwiley

09-12-2010, 08:05 PM

But, let me start with plans. Prices range from about US$600 to US$3,500 . Does it matter? Go cheap or choose the plans which you are most attracted to? Whose plans are easiest for an amateur to build to? Who's are a significant challenge? Is it a reasonable investment to buy cutting files? A pre-cut kit?(I can already see Wynand's response!lol) Or is that extravagant?

Mike

On plans, I'd decide what I wanted the boat to do, then any restrictions on that use, then find all the plans that matched the requirement. I'd then cull them to the ones I liked the best visually, then look at ease of construction and any special construction requirements. Plan price would be the last consideration as the boat is going to cost a ton of money compared to the plans.

I wanted a shoal draft ocean capable vessel that could be built (including rig if I needed to) pretty simply and had a proven track record of both construction and use. I knew my skills weren't up to round bilge and I also knew that round bilge boats don't actually sail any better than hard chine boats anyway, so that ruled out the round bilge designs.

PDW

welder/fitter

09-12-2010, 08:23 PM

I should have explained better. The purpose of this thread is a place to point to when that next post of, "Hi, I'm a newbie to these forums. I'm planning on building a steel sailboat and thought that this would be a good place to get an idea of...". (or some such post).

I think picking a reputable designer, “qualified” or not checking out his/her work before you spend dollar one would be the best way to spend your time and money to begin with. The same thing goes with any welding coach.

Presumably, one would do this. But, I did specify "qualified designer", so please stick with the parameters I suggested &, by all means, offer other parameters that might be of value to the thread. I would agree that if hiring someone to weld or advise about welding, then a welder who is experienced in marine vessels is a consideration, however, I believe that gonzo & Richard are suggesting that it be someone who is knowledgeable about all aspects of boatbuilding, rather than just welding. While that does narrow the field, I think that it would be a good place to start, then settle for the closest that you can find to the ideal advisor. If the "whole package" can be found; perfect!

I had some aluminium handrails delivered here, designed by Coast Guard engineers, welded by professional welders working for Coast Guard and inspected and certified by the same engineers that designed them. When the helicopter slung them in the welds literally popped apart when they set them down. They were sent back to town and re-welded and sent back here only to find they don’t fit the deck they were designed for. They are still here if any one wants to come out and look at “professional” welding and engineering.

It's a shame that you've had such bad experiences. Regardless, as I've mentioned, this is a thread to discuss the differences between wise expenditures & wasting one's budget.

Mike

M&M Ovenden

09-12-2010, 08:31 PM

No doubt, among backyard boat builders, most don't brace accordingly to what there project will cost, it costs a lot and there isn't much to save on. I find interesting your choice of words "worth while cost vs extravagance". I don't think of most of the costs on the construction of a steel boat as extravagances, extravagances come when one equips the boat.
Whatever boat is being built, for similar size you will need similar quantity of steel, will have about as much surface to blast, paint and insulate. What has to be done has to be done. A hard vs radius chine: is that really a choice to be made on cost? Or skill? The amount of welding on a 35 ft boat compared to an other? With proper equipment, well planned prep and sequences, there can't be that much more welding to make a crucial difference. Welding (with good equipment) is fast. ....faster than trying to figure out how the hell to proceed from half drawn out plans bought for cheap. Nah, I really don't think there is much leeway for savings on building boat vs an other comparable one.

What may seem like extravagant may not be. Mark and I have this concept we call "cost of regret". When a decision comes down to cost (all other variables have been discussed and evaluated) we don't only consider the price difference between "choice a" and "choice b" but also take in consideration a cost associated to making the wrong decision. If "a" and "b" are evenly viable options the cost of regret is at 0 and we can can pick the cheaper option with peace in mind. If there is a quality difference between two options the "cost of regret" can vary from a small inconvenience to exceeding the cost of the more expensive option (like in a potential redo down the road situation). This "cost of regret" concept adds an extra somewhat objective variable in our decision making when emotions can get a little too close to our wallet. The matter of the fact is that more often than other adding the "cost of regret" leads us to buying better rather than cheaper. On the long run I believe though that our "better" becomes "cheaper".

Over the past few years I have "witnessed" many saving strategies which turned out not so good. These, I think are quite common among amateur boat builders who build themselves with "cheaper" in mind. Examples? Buying an engine before even laying out the keel because it was a good price. Ten years later the boat is built, there is no more warranty on the engine and the poor diesel machine, which has never run, is seized. An other one? Skimping on the blasting.....to eventually have to blast anyway and paint again. Or, what's with the idea of building a boat in the middle of a field to avoid rent but burn money in fuel to run a generator...even if it happened to be cheaper, one would be hard press to do quality work in such conditions. Buying cheap tools...then they break....then one goes and buys not so cheap of tools....and eventually makes its way to the good stuff. I believe in good tools. Skill is half the battle, good tools the other...actually, real pros usually know how to pick there tools. It really makes me squidge when I read posts from people trying to figure out the cheapest way to gizmo a welding apparatus to weld up a hull.

Wow, this almost turned out into a rant. The truth of the matter is that I do get annoyed by the "cheap steel boat" idea. The only thing cheap about steel boats are the half finished shells on which people give up.

Murielle

Ad Hoc

09-12-2010, 08:45 PM

If you are starting from scratch, and assuming the plans are good etc, then without doubt, the best way is to seek expert advice.

As Richard notes, it is money saved not spent.

Building boats whilst it may seem like a hobby and “anyone can do it”, not everyone can weld properly - nor read/understand dwgs correctly. By that I mean a weld that is microscopically correct, rather than visibly. Visual inspection can only cover so much and if the welder is an amateur, as this thread suggests, then what bench mark does said welder have to judge whether the weld is quality or not?

So, seek advice from an experience fabricator. By this I mean as already eluded too, not just a welder. A full on fabricator(shipwright), someone with the skills, expertise and track record of building boats from start to finish. Preferably professional back ground. That is to say, qualifications to back up the experience. This simply demonstrates the ability to be consistent, compliant and due diligence to procedures which are terribly important and always over looked by amateurs as “she’ll be right mate” when in fact it is not!

Ask the fabricator, what is best way to start, what things should be done what things should not be done…when improvisation is acceptable and when it is not. Which means when is it best to seek expert advice on either fabrication or design; KNOW YOUR LIMITS and stick to them.

Then periodically ask the said fabricator to return to inspect what you have done as a ‘dry survey’. This will keep you on track and ensure you have not forgotten the basics. Being a professional fabricator, s/he will know what is acceptable and what is not, thus their advice shall be invaluable.

Finally, when completed, ask the fabricator of they can recommend a surveyor to give a final inspect and then, if passed, a stamp approved certification; beit it MCA/USCG etc etc. The cert, is the Jewel in the Crown.

It is not good spending $$$/£££/¥¥¥ and endless hours/weeks/years slaving away for a pile of junk. Just because it is a home build, does not mean it should be shoddy workmanship. Get your blood sweat and tears stamped as “approved”. With this cert, you have peace of mind and a serious increase in resale value.

Ad Hoc

09-12-2010, 08:47 PM

Wow, this almost turned out into a rant. The truth of the matter is that I do get annoyed by the "cheap steel boat" idea. The only thing cheap about steel boats are the half finished shells on which people give up.

Murielle

Spoken like a true pro :)

welder/fitter

09-12-2010, 10:14 PM

Excellent post, Murielle!

LOL, I shouldn't have chosen the word "extravagant" & promise not to do it again! By doing so, perhaps, I've given you the idea that I support the cheapest/fastest way to build a boat, but that is not the case at all.

First, I'm talking about all aspects of building a boat, not just the steel work. What I was trying to say was that, if, for instance, someone came up to you & Mark today & said that they had seen you working on your boat, were thinking that they'd like to build one, and was wondering what advice you'd give - as probably happens to you often on the internet - would you say, "Well, if we were starting again, we'd do everything the same" or "Here's one thing we'd do to save some time/money", or "We have specific skills that we have been able to incorporate into the building of our boat, but if you don't have this specific skill, you're better to build this way", or "to that sort of design."

Is that a bit more clear?

Peter,
I think you understood what I was trying to do & have perfectly illustrated your priorities in the value of plans. I tend to agree that what one gets for their money is vastly more important than what one pays.

Ad Hoc, great advice! (as usual)

Ad Hoc

09-12-2010, 10:40 PM

pdwiley

09-13-2010, 12:24 AM

The only thing that is cheap...is your time, ie the labour costs. Since it is your boat, you're not charging yourself for the work.

Hence this gives the impression that there are so many savings that can be made. The 'saving' is that you do bits and pieces when you can afford it, rather than taking out a huge mortgage for it!

Non-boat examples.

Friend of mine & I both have the same size and roughly same finish houses. I built mine. He paid to have his built. His was finished in less than 6 months, mine took over 2 years. Some trivial bits still aren't finished in mine but it's warm, dry and everything works.

At the end of the time he had a $100,000 mortgage. I didn't have one.

I couldn't save that $100K in the time difference between builds so doing it myself saved me a lot, plus I know exactly who to blame for any faults.

Same with my barn. I drew up the draft plans, paid an engineer to certify the plans then built it to plan. Less than half the cost of paying someone to do it for me or buying a prefab unit. Took me a while.

Boat? Jury is out. I totally agree there's no saving in steel, a one-off builder probably pays more because they buy retail. Don't know about diesel engines, I have 6 to choose from now. I bought bronze castings for my port lights but I have lathes and milling machines so finishing the castings isn't an issue except for the time.

I pay in time what I don't want to spend in money. Nothing is free. Some things are worth paying for; blasting steel is an example. I send mine to the commercial blasters even though I have a 120 cfm compressor of my own. If the commercial price was much more expensive I'd do it myself. I can sell the compressor when I'm finished but consider, it's a 25 HP 3 phase motor. How many prospective builders have a 415V 100A supply available to them? It cost me $8,000 just to get the 3 phase power connected some years ago.

Good, cheap, fast. You only ever get to pick 2.

Back to the questions, after picking the plans I'd find my building site. Depending on whether I was building under cover or in the open I'd work out my plan of attack. In the open, I'd be weather dependent, could be too hot for months to weld, could pour rain. In a wet climate I'd worry about the steel rusting faster than I could build. That would be a consideration when deciding whether to build right way up or upside down. I'd want to get the hull weathertight as soon as I could. Building in a cradle (VDS 34) might be good if the keel opening was a drain, building upside down would also work as each plate added increased the weather resistance somewhat.

Site rental is another issue. None, there's no time pressure. High rent, better plan on building fast (pick appropriate design) or relocating the hull as soon as all the metalwork is finished. Think crane rentals and wide load permits. It can easily cost $2K where I live to move a hull by the time you pay the minimum charges for cranes, low loaders, riggers etc etc.

PDW

Manie B

09-13-2010, 12:32 AM

The best plans is not what they cost but how much detail is in them and how much online support there is. For you the best is to build a popular boat where there are good forums for that particular design and designer.
Just look around at how many **** builds there are because the builder doesn't have enough details on the plans and his lack of experience.

Here I have seen you get what you pay for
cheap plans = few details = guess work = **** build = no re-sale value

apex1

09-13-2010, 07:17 AM

but in the wooden boat building shows nearly every year amateur built boats are in the top three, often first, and a lot of “Professional” builds don’t even get mentioned. Don’t rule out the home builders ability, some do better than some professionals.Dennis

That is a opinion I hear quite often. But it is just that, a opinion.

When Daniel Skira, Peter Radcliffe, Wynand Noortje would build a boat in a backyard, sure the result would be a professional one. They ARE pro´s, hence no wonder.
But ask them if they would dare to say they are able to do better than a top yard.

The "amateurs can do better than pro´s" statement is wrong. They can not.

Boatbuilding is far too complex to make it possible for a amateur to achieve results like pro´s. Too many different trades, hence too many little tricks one has to know, to get the final result as good as the different experts in their field would.

I am dead sure, Peter can make a very good steel boat, and Wynand as good a wooden one, but as sure the result is a much better one if done the other way round. (Daniel has a bit broader range)

Now when you ask all three of them how much they like the wiring, they will probably tell you they don´t know, never tried, they hire experts! (one can translate this example into other trades as plumbing too)

Of course, compared with a mass product, some homebuilders can achieve quite good results in one or the other trade, but there is not one single example aflaot, where a amateur has done a better boat than pro´s!

I have seen quite impressive woodwork done by skilled homebuilders, no doubt, but my cabinetmakers make that look like orange crates when they spend half the time on such "masterpiece". But they are cabinetmakers, in plumbing, I fear, they would brake their legs and arms and get it not done.
You got the picture?

Another point, always overlooked by amateurs, is the fact, that most NA´s are unable to design "buildable".
The one with the most sold stock plans is a perfect proof for the validity of this statement. (radius chine, as a hint)
Most of them are able to integrate the most obvious stuff right where it belongs, but then the finicky part starts. Plumbing, ducts, sea cocks,limber holes, accessability of parts and compartements, etc. etc..........

Here the shipwright pays back what he got. He is well familiar with these sloppy drawn "plans" and has sensible solutions, tricks and experience.

No, don´t tell the homebuilder he can do a better boat than the professionals, thats a lie.
He can, with patience, dedication and growing skills*, produce a boat nearly as good as a yard built, in details even a bit better than the average, but not a award winning superyacht to the best overall quality.

* the mentioned ten years building time are a direct result of these! Though Murielle sure has shocked some of the homebuilders reading that, she is right on the penny not to underestimate the time frame.

Regards
Richard

Wynand N

09-13-2010, 08:38 AM

But, let me start with plans. Prices range from about US$600 to US$3,500 . Does it matter? Go cheap or choose the plans which you are most attracted to? Whose plans are easiest for an amateur to build to?

Mike, the only advice I can give here is to get plans that are BUILDER FRIENDLY and designer available for after sale support. That applies not only for the amateur, but the pro as well.
How would one know if plans are builder friendly? - ask a boatyard that had built to various designs.
Another hint is to find out if the designer has built himself a boat or two and that means he knows the "pitfalls" and should address that in his plans.

Whose plans are the easiest to build to? From experience I will put Dix on top followed by v/d Stadt. Angelo Lavranos boat plans are also well sorted out for the amateur.

My tips for the home builder; stay away from full size patterns - they are not worth the paper printed on. Lofting is easy and you are guaranteed having perfect frames etc.

As for CNC file cut plates:confused: Yep Mike, you guessed right. :D :D Like laser cutters and the like, it is over rated and do not allow you to make adjustments when something goes amiss - and it will happens with an amateur.
Keep it real, have balls, measure and cut your plates and be assured of a perfect fit everytime...a steel boat is not a kit car.

dskira

09-13-2010, 09:04 AM

My tips for the home builder; stay away from full size patterns - they are not worth the paper printed on. Lofting is easy and you are guaranteed having perfect frames etc.

You are absolutely right. Refreshing to read you. To many people are afraid of lofting and get taken by the full size pattern which amount for nothing.
Daniel

welder/fitter

09-13-2010, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Wynand N
My tips for the home builder; stay away from full size patterns - they are not worth the paper printed on. Lofting is easy and you are guaranteed having perfect frames etc.

You are absolutely right. Refreshing to read you. To many people are afraid of lofting and get taken by the full size pattern which amount for nothing.
Daniel

Excellent point! I bought plans for a 55 footer a few years ago & they sent me full-size patterns. Fortunately, they also sent the table of offsets, because I have no use for the full-size patterns. I probably could have saved a bit on the shipping, if I'd thought to get them to keep the fs patterns. I remember you guys talking about this a couple of years ago & I laid one pattern out on the shop floor & compared it to the offsets. not only were the reference lines/points not completely accurate, but the paper edge wasn't square on an edge that was a reference line(c/l).

Wynand, you've got much to offer this thread, though it would be a repeat of earlier advice to myself & others. I just thought I'd gather what is useful to someone, so it would save having to re-state the sound advice, over & over, with each new member/builder. Alternatively, we can just point people to your new website, which has a lot of great info.

Lampy08

09-13-2010, 12:06 PM

dskira

09-13-2010, 12:41 PM

Wynand N

09-13-2010, 02:58 PM

Lampy, I would strongly recommend, if you have the funds, to let a pro boatbuilder build you the hull, deck, keel rudder and tanks, have it welded and shotblasted and epoxy primer painted, and delivered to your door.

1. Save you years off your building schedule - most projects get abandoned during this stage.
2. Keep you on friendly terms with the neighbors - a grinder, shotblasting, epoxy paint fumes, arc welder interfering with TV signals are the nightmares neighbors fears most...
3. Save grace with the missus.

But as Daniel said so well, "it depends".

Mike, put me on the plank if I start to sound like someone we all fear, and I'll take the dive:o

apex1

09-13-2010, 03:05 PM

Ok, so nearly every one here agrees that only a “Pro” builder can weld a boat together right, let me throw this concept in the mix. Is it money well spent to have a pro shop build the hull and have it delivered to you for finishing? Dennis

I have not seen such statement. And Murielle would prove it wrong in a moment, if it was made.

Buying a hull is definetively a good idea in general though. It is the lowest factor in cost, but one of the biggest tasks. Thousands of half finished hulls give a clear picture.

Ad Hoc

09-13-2010, 04:30 PM

My tips for the home builder; stay away from full size patterns - they are not worth the paper printed on. Lofting is easy and you are guaranteed having perfect frames etc.

Not forgetting, full size plans are subjected to temperature and humidity too, as such the film, or whatever medium is selected, is never 100% perfect. Not to mention the temp and humidity of where they were printed shall be different from where you live, ie shrinkage/stretch. Additionally, if the printer used was old or cheap, these tend to "stretch" the film too...or 'smear' the ink.

Good advice, as always :)

welder/fitter

09-13-2010, 04:58 PM

Ok, so nearly every one here agrees that only a “Pro” builder can weld a boat together right, let me throw this concept in the mix. Is it money well spent to have a pro shop build the hull and have it delivered to you for finishing?

Dennis

I wouldn't say that it takes a professional, Dennis. Anyone who can weld well & follows the specifics of correctly welding a boat hull/deck/etc. - weld schedule - will suffice. By the same token, what a few have already suggested - that it might be worthwhile to have the steelwork completed professionally - is, imho, a reasonable consideration, if one can afford it. I suppose the other issue would be that, if you're set on building the hull/decks/keel/etc. yourself, you'd better really love to work steel, because you'll be doing it for a while & nobody is going to pay you for your time.

Yes, it does pay off to have a hull professionally done, when selling becomes an issue. I knew a guy who had a Roberts345 that was put together poorly. After slogging it out for a while, he & his wife decided to buy a professionally built aluminum "Swain" design. While I hope they consider the other discussions that have taken place regarding design, at least he can move on to his strength - joinery. When the day comes that they have had enough of that type of boating, they'll be able to say, "professionally built aluminum sailboat for sale".

Mike

rugludallur

09-13-2010, 06:29 PM

Professionals have experience going for them, doing something gets easier when you've done it a couple of times before. Professionals can also afford better equipment, buying things for a one off is expensive even if you can resell them but Ebay tends to help.

Amateurs have time on their side, when you don't have to turn a profit you can afford to spend time on details which otherwise would never get done. When you buy something it's usually after paying income and sales tax, in most countries this halves your purchasing power so you can spend 2x more time on something than a professional you hire.

As for the quality and those tips and tricks mentioned, I think the Internet has changed the playing field, in a couple of weeks worth of browsing you can learn a lot. You can also order a lot of good books which are easier to find now than ever. With this in mind I think skilled amateurs with experience building in the material of their choice can produce something which is just as good as what a commercial yard can do.

If the amateur isn't skilled in the material of choice it's easy to do a couple of practice projects or take community college courses or even get a job in the field for a few months.

As for lofting vs. kits vs. full scale patterns and omitted details on drawings, I recommend doing your own CAD. Take those offsets and start drawing, don't stop until you have every last bolt, pipe and hose in place. It will take months but it will save you so many mistakes and in the end reduce the total effort since you can CNC cut both steel and interior. Some might argue that CAD isn't worth it for a one off or amateur work but I reject this, I think it's one of the most productive way for an amateur to start building a boat, familiarize oneself with every detail and add those that are missing. This will lead to better time and price estimates, better design, build quality and it can all be done before spending a dime on material, housing or tools.

Jarl
http://dallur.com

M&M Ovenden

09-13-2010, 06:45 PM

As for lofting vs. kits vs. full scale patterns and omitted details on drawings, I recommend doing your own CAD. Take those offsets and start drawing, don't stop until you have every last bolt, pipe and hose in place. It will take months but it will save you so many mistakes and in the end reduce the total effort since you can CNC cut both steel and interior. Some might argue that CAD isn't worth it for a one off or amateur work but I reject this, I think it's one of the most productive way for an amateur to start building a boat, familiarize oneself with every detail and add those that are missing. This will lead to better time and price estimates, better design, build quality and it can all be done before spending a dime on material, housing or tools.

I agree 100%. Doing the CAD work is like building boat for a first time...you get to find mistakes before they are costly.

Cheers,
Mark

wardd

09-13-2010, 06:55 PM

if you're good with cad you can get weight and balance info

Vulkyn

09-13-2010, 06:58 PM

As a beginner it took me 4 month to master the courage and the bare basics to try out a wooden boat construction. I do not come from a family of builders nor have i ever been involved in boat building.
Its a BIG task for some one like me.

Now if it comes to steel, i would definitely ask and look for the choice that will give me the safest possible solution (tried and tested design, access to help and support) in short the most idiot proof solution (or selection of solutions).
As for welding, i would go with professional welding, i just know my limits and i can not get around to do it myself not yet anyway.

As a rule of thumb for me, the less the unknown variables in a build / project the better the outcome will be, so i will avoid any uncharted territory.

if you have the funds, to let a pro boatbuilder build you the hull, deck, keel rudder and tanks, have it welded and shotblasted and epoxy primer painted, and delivered to your door.

1. Save you years off your building schedule - most projects get abandoned during this stage.
2. Keep you on friendly terms with the neighbors - a grinder, shotblasting, epoxy paint fumes, arc welder interfering with TV signals are the nightmares neighbors fears most...
3. Save grace with the missus.

much cheaper on the long run ..
Just a beginner's opinion :)

wardd

09-13-2010, 07:03 PM

As a beginner it took me 4 month to master the courage and the bare basics to try out a wooden boat construction. I do not come from a family of builders nor have i ever been involved in boat building.
Its a BIG task for some one like me.

Now if it comes to steel, i would definitely ask and look for the choice that will give me the safest possible solution (tried and tested design, access to help and support) in short the most idiot proof solution (or selection of solutions).
As for welding, i would go with professional welding, i just know my limits and i can not get around to do it myself not yet anyway.

As a rule of thumb for me, the less the unknown variables in a build / project the better the outcome will be, so i will avoid any uncharted territory.

much cheaper on the long run ..
Just a beginner's opinion :)

for someone like you, in steel there is only one choice and we all know what that is

even you can pull together a hull in a week

Vulkyn

09-13-2010, 07:31 PM

for someone like you, in steel there is only one choice and we all know what that is

even you can pull together a hull in a week

I didnt understand your post ....

wardd

09-13-2010, 07:32 PM

I'll give you some time ti figure it out , lol

Lampy08

09-13-2010, 08:19 PM

[QUOTE=Wynand N;398225]Lampy, I would strongly recommend, if you have the funds, to let a pro boatbuilder build you the hull, deck, keel rudder and tanks, have it welded and shotblasted and epoxy primer painted, and delivered to your door.

Problem is I don’t have the money and where I live there is no chance of a pro coming out and helping me along, unless they tend to travel north of Cape Caution on their boat and wouldn’t mind giving out free advice. I have built several small boats and welded on the farm growing up. Welding a boat isn’t rocket science.
I think I am typical of many amateur builders. I have a dream and three kids to put through college. Finding $1000.00 a year to put towards a boat is a near Herculean feat, but I’m looking for alternatives and not seeing much offered here.

welder/fitter

09-13-2010, 08:29 PM

for someone like you, in steel there is only one choice and we all know what that is

even you can pull together a hull in a week

Same skills required & post #1 specifies qualified designers.

welder/fitter

09-13-2010, 08:40 PM

I think I am typical of many amateur builders. I have a dream and three kids to put through college. Finding $1000.00 a year to put towards a boat is a near Herculean feat, but I’m looking for alternatives and not seeing much offered here.

No one here is a miracle worker, Dennis. $1000/year doesn't a boat make, imho. If you're able to keep/build a boat at your light station, I noticed a large FC in Deep Cove that the owner has had to give up on due to health. It's on Vancouver Craigslist & is quite cheap. Don't know how you'd get it there though. The fellow I mentioned who bought the aluminum may still have his Roberts345 sitting in/near Gibsons. It needs a ton of work & is just the basic metal, but it'd be a start. I'll send you his e-mail in a pm, if I still have it.

Lampy08

09-14-2010, 01:07 AM

No one here is a miracle worker, Dennis. $1000/year doesn't a boat make, imho. If you're able to keep/build a boat at your light station, I noticed a large FC in Deep Cove that the owner has had to give up on due to health. It's on Vancouver Craigslist & is quite cheap. Don't know how you'd get it there though. The fellow I mentioned who bought the aluminum may still have his Roberts345 sitting in/near Gibsons. It needs a ton of work & is just the basic metal, but it'd be a start. I'll send you his e-mail in a pm, if I still have it.

I have a good anchorage here and if she were water tight and weather proof I could work on her as weather permitted. I could probably call in a favour to get her towed here. If I could build from scratch I have a good spot by the helicopter pad where I would have power and foot access easy to launch from there on a high tide. Pulling a finished hull up to there would be difficult, but launching would be all down hill, probably fun too!
Keeping in the theme of the thread; buying such a pre built hull, sight unseen as I would have to do, one would be foolish not to have it looked at by some one who knew what to look for. What would be a fair price to expect. Is surveying done on a flat rate or is it figured on a per boat basis?

welder/fitter

09-14-2010, 01:26 AM

I have a good anchorage here and if she were water tight and weather proof I could work on her as weather permitted. I could probably call in a favour to get her towed here. If I could build from scratch I have a good spot by the helicopter pad where I would have power and foot access easy to launch from there on a high tide. Pulling a finished hull up to there would be difficult, but launching would be all down hill, probably fun too!
Keeping in the theme of the thread; buying such a pre built hull, sight unseen as I would have to do, one would be foolish not to have it looked at by some one who knew what to look for. What would be a fair price to expect. Is surveying done on a flat rate or is it figured on a per boat basis?

I don't know how much work the owner did after I stopped & he moved it to Gibsons. When I last worked on it, there was still a lot of repairs to be made - someone butchered the stbd side bow & the hull & deck couldn't decide if they were innies or outies(lol) - but it was basically a hull, deck & keel at that point, with a lot of extra material. Not a project for the faint of heart, but cheap & great practice, if nothing else. If you have no issues with ferrocement, that one in Deep Cove would be worth a close look.

welder/fitter

09-14-2010, 03:01 PM

There are certain issues which we really can't address on this thread, because they depend so much on the location and/or finances of the builder, as well as other considerations that are unique to the individual builder. Keeping that in mind, for the prospective first-time builder, in other words, someone who is "thinking about building a steel sailboat", there is a division between what most of us would consider to be a reasonable choice for someone building their first boat and what would be deemed unreasonable.
Examples could be welding processes, materials selection for construction & fittings, rig choices, etc.

Consider the welding processes. One might consider SMAW(stick), GMAW(MIG, solid-wire), FCAW(flux-core). But, does one consider GTAW(TIG)? To those who weld/have knowledge of welding I'd suggest that the first three suggestions are all logical choices. But, on this and other forums I have read posts where a first-time builder(to be) is thinking about TIG welding an entire boat. Personally, I'd suggest that this is an unreasonable idea, even for tacking. I think that others would agree? However, there is a value in TIG, for some, in work on stainless/aluminum fittings. But, for the builder who is on a tight budget, which process do we recommend? While the initial cost of stick equipment is less, the wire processes are much faster.

Other equipment for working the steel must also be considered. I believe that those who are comfortable with plasma-arc cutting would strongly promote it over oxy-fuel cutting, yet, if the builder is on a tight budget, do we say that this should/should not be given priority in how the builder spends his/her money? Plasma-arc is a wonderful thing. I hated it when I first used it, but was forced to use it. Now, I love it. But, is it considered essential? No.

For about a year, I've been following the progress on the welding web of a fellow in Norway who is building an aluminum-hull boat & using TIG for a significant amount of tacking:
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=29094
In some of his posts he mentions the number of hours he spends on forming & attaching each strake. While I wish him the best of luck, it seems to be a very slow way to go about building a boat.

Then there is the consideration of materials. The two greatest disadvantages in using steel to build a 35 foot(10.7m) sailboat are weight and the consideration of corrosion. So what are reasonable and unreasonable considerations for the first-time builder? I saw a post a few months ago where a prospective builder was asking about building a boat of stainless steel. To me, that would seem unreasonable, at least as a recommendation. Do-able? Sure. What about HSLA(high strength, low alloy) steels? While some will read this as COR-TEN, others will note that there is a wide range of HSLA steels. But, is it worth the investment &, sometimes, greater welding & pre/post treatment challenges for the first-time builder? I believe that it is not, but others may see it differently.

My plan in doing this thread is to take what appears to be the consensus on each discussed issue, list them on a thread as recommendations, and ask Jeff to apply a "sticky" to that thread in the metal boat building section of these forums. The thread would direct the reader to this thread, in case the reader wanted to read the discussion which lead to the recommendations in the sticky. Though many things discussed can be applied to building power boats, I do want to delve into recommendations of rudder-types, skegs, etc., and, whether here or in another thread, members will be able to suggest additions to the sticky, as valuable contributions are made. Still, some things are not worth putting in a sticky, such as name brands of paints, as what is popular today might be yesterday's news tomorrow, when some better product comes out.

An example might be:

1) Plans - For the amateur first-time builder, there is concensus that what is of primary importance is not the price of the plans one buys, rather, the completeness & quality of the plans. In other words, there is no value in buying one designer's plans simply because they are the cheapest. The plans must serve their intended purpose, which is to guide the builder in all/most aspects of constructing a specific boat. While there are obvious personal choices in propulsion & other systems, fixtures, fittings, etc., there is also value in the designer's recommendations.

(...or some such statement)

pdwiley

09-14-2010, 05:54 PM

Consider the welding processes. One might consider SMAW(stick), GMAW(MIG, solid-wire), FCAW(flux-core). But, does one consider GTAW(TIG)? To those who weld/have knowledge of welding I'd suggest that the first three suggestions are all logical choices. But, on this and other forums I have read posts where a first-time builder(to be) is thinking about TIG welding an entire boat. Personally, I'd suggest that this is an unreasonable idea, even for tacking. I think that others would agree? However, there is a value in TIG, for some, in work on stainless/aluminum fittings. But, for the builder who is on a tight budget, which process do we recommend? While the initial cost of stick equipment is less, the wire processes are much faster.

I think that this depends on a few other factors when amateur one-off builds are contemplated.

Do you have an undercover/protected work site?
What power supply is available?

It is pointless using MIG and shielding gas if it's windy and you're working outdoors. Flux cored would work but the wire is damn expensive.

It is equally pointless if all the electrical power you have is a 240V 15A supply as the duty cycle of small MIG machines is pathetic. IMO if you can't run at least 0.9mm solid wire then you can't use a MIG welder as the 0.6mm wire machines simply can't get enough heat into the work for quality welds on 6mm plate let alone 10mm.

A limitation of MIG welders is the short stinger length meaning that you need to move the machine all the time. Smaller units, less of a problem as they're portable.

For the size boat under discussion here you don't NEED more than a 140A AC stick welder running for the most part 2.5mm E4111 rods.

I did all the welding on my 38' Colvin design using an AC welder and either 2.5mm E4111 rods or 4mm E7024 iron powder rods for the heavy keel shoe. In retrospect I would have been better off swapping to the MIG when I started welding the stringers to the frames provided I was using solid wire and gas shielding because I've spent a lot of time with a grinder dressing those welds. I have now swapped to the gasless MIG welder for attaching the 4mm hull plate - it's a lot easier doing overhead welds with a MIG than it is with a stick welder, and the gun is also lighter. I'm going to bring my 250A 3 phase MIG welder back from Sydney and use that now.

My recommendation would be that, provided you had a protected work area and power supply capable of supporting at least a 150A MIG welder that could supply its max output at a 25% duty cycle, go MIG and borrow a stick welder to do any critical welds where you want 100% root penetration. Otherwise just use a stick welder and E4111 rods, accept the time hit and invest in a couple more angle grinders.

I have 6 angle grinders anyway because I hate swapping from cutting to grinding to wire brush to flap wheel.

I would definitely recommend a plasma cutter provided once again you can feed it the power it needs. My Chinese made 50A unit cost $600 AUD and NEEDS a 240V 15A supply to run it. You also need an air compressor but I've been successful in using one of the hardware store handyman units that would be lucky to put out 3 cfm. Still another $200 or so though.

My plasma cutter can sever up to 10mm plate, probably 12mm, but the cut isn't pretty. Then again my gas cuts aren't pretty either so.... 10mm to 12mm is enough for a boat of this size though, generally. The plasma cutter can also cut stainless and ally whereas the gas rig can't, but the gas rig can be used for heating and the plasma cutter can't. Always tradeoffs.

FWIW.

PDW

gonzo

09-14-2010, 06:04 PM

Ad Hoc

09-14-2010, 06:11 PM

Mike/PDW

You both raise excellent points which are more often than not over looked when starting.

I would also add into this 'mixing bowl' of choices, ease of useage and hence how comfortable one feels in producing quality welds.

The reason why some prefer TIG, for example, despite all the usual caveats is that the person using it feels more comfortable using it and can also satisfy themselves that their weld is of an acceptable quality. Whereas they would not be so comfortbale nor happy with the results from say MIG.

I like sketching on graph-type paper, others like plain etc. We choose what we feel comfortable with, not necessaily what is best or better.

TwoByFour

09-14-2010, 06:32 PM

Thanks for starting (and the follow-up) this thread welder/fitter. Hopefully it will continue and people will keep contributing things that are relevant to it.

My thoughts are that most people who get the idea to build their own steel boat of this size, are not of high income. I know that there are exceptions to this but I think it is true as a generalization. People have dreams about sailing (sometimes they have experience with sailing too, but not always) and perhaps some fabricating skills and they think that they might be able to afford building a boat as long as they did most of the work themselves. Most of the time people do not realise how much it really takes to build a proper boat. Not everyone who starts a boat building adventure makes it to the finish line, but some do...even ones who start with unrealistic ideas and underestimate the cost, complexity and build time.

People who can easily afford a boat, are more likely to just buy one. Just like those who can buy a new car instead of getting a wreck and fixing it themselves, as someone with limited income might do.

I do think that it is important that people with experience in boat design and building give the newbies and amateurs a lot of warnings about it being more expensive and more complex than they expect, because it is very true. I don't believe lying to people helps them, at least not in this case.

With increasing availability of information from amateurs (and pros) who have successfully built their own boats, I think it is becoming easier for people who are considering building a boat to find relevant information to base their decisions and methods on. 10 years ago things were a lot different.

Consider the welding processes. One might consider SMAW(stick), GMAW(MIG, solid-wire), FCAW(flux-core). But, does one consider GTAW(TIG)? To those who weld/have knowledge of welding I'd suggest that the first three suggestions are all logical choices. But, on this and other forums I have read posts where a first-time builder(to be) is thinking about TIG welding an entire boat. Personally, I'd suggest that this is an unreasonable idea, even for tacking. I think that others would agree? However, there is a value in TIG, for some, in work on stainless/aluminum fittings. But, for the builder who is on a tight budget, which process do we recommend? While the initial cost of stick equipment is less, the wire processes are much faster.

I was thinking about making an extensive list of pros and cons of different welding processes, but I came to the conclusion that it was probably a bit too much as there are comparative lists elsewhere on the web. So I decided to just give my opinion.

I would say it is a question of what your welding skills and what sort of facilities and equipment you have and how much money you have to throw into the project.

If I were to start from scratch and didn't have any equipment, I would go for GMAW for the hull itself, unless I were building outdoors, in which case I would pick FCAW. In essence the same machine, so it would be possible to switch between processes as needed. The high productivity and lower thermal input compared to SMAW are the main reasons.

For welding indoors, the amount of toxic fumes from GMAW or FCAW are much more than from GMAW and it is a much cleaner process. The high productivity and low welding filler cost compensate for the cost of shielding gas.

If I were building on an extremely tight budget, I might not use any stainless. If I had money for stainless, I would probably get a small GTAW machine for fabricating the stainless bits, and the more money I had, I would probably use the GTAW more on welding the stainless bits to the hull with 309 filler, otherwise I would just do it with the GMAW and 309 filler wire.

It must be said about GTAW that it is extremely expensive and slow compared to the other 3 aforementioned processes but also much cleaner and eliminates much of the grinding work that's required with the other. Compared to GMAW or FCAW it is more likely to cause problems with distortion due to higher thermal input.

Enough for now :)

Carl.

Wynand N

09-15-2010, 12:52 AM

Welding is the most critical part of the boat - that's what keeps it together.

Inverter MIG machines are quite affordable (light) and I used 200A 220V units with 60% cycle duty and run them all day long not stop using about 160A burning 1.2mm wire. IOW, amateurs can afford a good machine at reasonable price.
But that said; MIG machine can be dangerous in the hands of a non welder. Yes, it is the easiest welding technique to master and use. A weld is just as strong as its penetration, and I had seen many a nice looking MIG welds let go under stress due to lack of fusion. The bad part of such a weld is that it is difficult to spot, especially the amateur - rather have to much juice on tap than to little with a MIG.

Since the keyword is amateur, hence my terminology used describing welding types instead of "pro naming" my recommendation for a first build would be to get a nice DC converter arc welder of about 200A and that machine can perform non stop 24/7 at a rated ~135A for 3.15mm electrodes. These machines are relative cheap nowadays.

Tip for the amateur not sure how to set his arc welder for desired electrode to be used: multiply electrode thickness by 40, for example:
2.5mm x 40 = 100A. This should give you a reasonable good weld and penetration. Of course, this is a guideline only and you can fine tune for different positions...

bearflag

09-15-2010, 02:46 AM

I agree 100%. Doing the CAD work is like building boat for a first time...you get to find mistakes before they are costly.

Cheers,
Mark

This is the approach that I am doing. But I am also building models, conducting tests, building a smaller hobby sized boat before I do the real thing.

It helps that I have a physics background, CAD/CAE skills, wood working, welding, electronics, etc etc. though. It helps a lot.

(:

TwoByFour

09-15-2010, 09:22 AM

But that said; MIG machine can be dangerous in the hands of a non welder. Yes, it is the easiest welding technique to master and use. A weld is just as strong as its penetration, and I had seen many a nice looking MIG welds let go under stress due to lack of fusion. The bad part of such a weld is that it is difficult to spot, especially the amateur - rather have to much juice on tap than to little with a MIG.

Very true that it can be hard to spot insufficient penetration with MIG compared to stick, where it is easily spotted. You can easily make MIG "welds" that appear OK to the less experienced, but have hardly any penetration. This is especially true with downhill welds.

Since the keyword is amateur, hence my terminology used describing welding types instead of "pro naming" my recommendation for a first build would be to get a nice DC converter arc welder of about 200A and that machine can perform non stop 24/7 at a rated ~135A for 3.15mm electrodes. These machines are relative cheap nowadays.

It can be confusing to beginners that some use words such as MIG, TIG and Stick while others use the "fancy" four letter words GMAW, GTAW and SMAW. I think it's a question of what part of the world you're in, not especially a question of professionals vs. amateurs. In my part of the world no-one uses the four letter words, not even the most professional of professionals. Perhaps welding engineers are more prone to use the four letter words, but they don't usually do a lot of welding and in some cases don't even have welding skills. I do think it is useful to know all of these terms though, if for example you want to search for welding information online, as a lot of good papers on welding have the four letter terms in them. For example I was reading up on welding 2205 duplex stainless the other day, and most of the information I found only used the 4 letter words. Not that I expect many amateurs to dig themselves in that deep, but who knows.

Wikipedia now has quite good articles on welding and has clarification on the terms for those who don't know already :)

Tip for the amateur not sure how to set his arc welder for desired electrode to be used: multiply electrode thickness by 40, for example:
2.5mm x 40 = 100A. This should give you a reasonable good weld and penetration. Of course, this is a guideline only and you can fine tune for different positions...

A very useful tip :)

Carl

TwoByFour

09-15-2010, 09:59 AM

If you can't afford the tools, building a boat is not realistic. A plasma cutter is a cheaper option than gas cutting. Add up the cost of gas and compare. Cutting and grinding wheels are another major expense. Cheap tools, specially welders, are a poor choice. They are the most critical part of building a metal boat. Welding a hull is not like making patches in farm machinery. The welding sequence is crucial to prevent stresses and keeping the plates from deforming. A typical characteristic of amateur builds is the thick fairing compound. There are many manuals on welding boats.

In my part of the world plasma is much less expensive than using Acetylene and Oxygen, in the long run at least as initially the equipment is more expensive. Until recently there was only one company on the gas market (Linde Group / AGA) and you cannot own your own gas tanks, you have to rent each tank at a price of 100 USD a year. As an example for gas prices, Argon is at 150 USD now for 10.9 NM3 (385 normal cubic feet). I would find it interesting to hear from you others how much are you paying for your gas.

Welding a boat is very different from doing repair welds on farm machinery or cars, but I would say that any experience helps to make a proficient welder.

Everything costs money and often the small parts that you forget to take into calculation end up costing more than the big parts.

Are there any good boat-building welding manuals online that you know of, Gonzo?

Carl.

pdwiley

09-15-2010, 05:05 PM

In my part of the world plasma is much less expensive than using Acetylene and Oxygen, in the long run at least as initially the equipment is more expensive. Until recently there was only one company on the gas market (Linde Group / AGA) and you cannot own your own gas tanks, you have to rent each tank at a price of 100 USD a year. As an example for gas prices, Argon is at 150 USD now for 10.9 NM3 (385 normal cubic feet). I would find it interesting to hear from you others how much are you paying for your gas.

Here in Tasmania a 4.2m3 tank of oxygen costs $70 AUD roughly and the bottle rental is $17/month. I don't have figures on argon as I haven't used any for a while. I use LPG as my fuel gas so no bottle rental.

I can buy a gas cutting torch kit for approx $200 and a 50A plasma cutter for $600 but you also need a compressor at another $200-300 at least. Gas cutting is cheaper in the first cost but more expensive to run, though I go through quite a few plasma cutting tips. I need to add an air dryer to my system I think.

No question in my mind that plasma cutting is the way to go on speed, accuracy and cleanliness of cut. You can make a template out of MDF (medium density fibreboard) and use it as a guide for the plasma torch, something impossible with gas cutting.

PDW

bearflag

09-15-2010, 05:15 PM

Here in Tasmania a 4.2m3 tank of oxygen costs $70 AUD roughly and the bottle rental is $17/month. I don't have figures on argon as I haven't used any for a while. I use LPG as my fuel gas so no bottle rental.

I can buy a gas cutting torch kit for approx $200 and a 50A plasma cutter for $600 but you also need a compressor at another $200-300 at least. Gas cutting is cheaper in the first cost but more expensive to run, though I go through quite a few plasma cutting tips. I need to add an air dryer to my system I think.

No question in my mind that plasma cutting is the way to go on speed, accuracy and cleanliness of cut. You can make a template out of MDF (medium density fibreboard) and use it as a guide for the plasma torch, something impossible with gas cutting.

PDW

I bought my plasma torch on craigslist, it easily chops thru an inch of steel, and I can dial it up to do more. I can't imagine having to go back to grinding, milling, or gas torching thru metal plates anymore.

welder/fitter

09-16-2010, 04:55 AM

It can be confusing to beginners that some use words such as MIG, TIG and Stick while others use the "fancy" four letter words GMAW, GTAW and SMAW. I think it's a question of what part of the world you're in, not especially a question of professionals vs. amateurs. In my part of the world no-one uses the four letter words, not even the most professional of professionals. Perhaps welding engineers are more prone to use the four letter words, but they don't usually do a lot of welding and in some cases don't even have welding skills. I do think it is useful to know all of these terms though, if for example you want to search for welding information online, as a lot of good papers on welding have the four letter terms in them. For example I was reading up on welding 2205 duplex stainless the other day, and most of the information I found only used the 4 letter words. Not that I expect many amateurs to dig themselves in that deep, but who knows.
Carl

The reason I use the longer version is that the term MIG isn't really a correct term, as one uses more than inert gases with the process. I usually use both terms, however, so that there is less confusion. It's nothing to do with "being fancy".(lol)

I'm glad that Wynand & you mentioned the difficulties in judging a MIG weld's penetration by it's appearance. I'll add that flux-core self-shielding(fcaw-ss) wire is also challenging for a lot of welders & really isn't worth using, unless it is all that is available, as it doesn't give one the speed that makes the wire processes so attractive.

Mike

welder/fitter

09-16-2010, 05:30 AM

#2 - Professional assistance - In discussions regarding the construction of steel boats, the concensus appears to be that the best-case scenario would be for the first-time amateur builder to employ a professional builder/yard to assemble the vessel.

It is, however, appreciated that one can not, or does not wish to, do so, at times. The recommendation would then be for the builder to involve professionals to assist and/or advise in each phase of construction. While there is value in internet forums such as these, having a professional on-site is invaluable, as he/she will not only advise on the concerns the builder asks about, but will observe the entire project & point out problems which the builder may not have recognized as occuring. As the professional will be familiar with the local area, he/she should also have knowledge of which processes, equipment and materials are available in the area and which are the cheaper & more expensive alternatives. A further benefit of the involvement of an experienced individual is that he/she will keep the project on track and will give encouragement to the first-time builder, when needed. Too many such projects have gone unfinished due to a lack of direction and a subsequent loss of enthusiasm.

In choosing a professional to advise/assist, it is suggested that the builder first consider a professional experienced in all aspects of steel boat construction, before one experienced in only one, two, or a few aspects.

(change, restructure where necessary/prudent)

wardd

09-16-2010, 08:30 AM

The reason I use the longer version is that the term MIG isn't really a correct term, as one uses more than inert gases with the process. I usually use both terms, however, so that there is less confusion. It's nothing to do with "being fancy".(lol)

I'm glad that Wynand & you mentioned the difficulties in judging a MIG weld's penetration by it's appearance. I'll add that flux-core self-shielding(fcaw-ss) wire is also challenging for a lot of welders & really isn't worth using, unless it is all that is available, as it doesn't give one the speed that makes the wire processes so attractive.

Mike

I'm no welder so instead of welding plenty good, I weld good and plenty.

I do all my welding outside and haul my welder on a garden cart so flux is the way for me

pdwiley

09-16-2010, 11:16 PM

I bought my plasma torch on craigslist, it easily chops thru an inch of steel, and I can dial it up to do more.

Yeah but that's like me saying that I bought my Colchester toolroom lathe loaded with tooling for $1000 off of the local craigslist equivalent. It may well be true (in fact it is) but it's totally unhelpful as the chances of someone else doing the same are very slim.

Also to cut through 25mm of steel I'd expect it to be an 80A output unit. What sort of power supply does it need to feed it? The gear I quoted is adequate to do the cutting you need to build a small boat and available retail anywhere on the planet, pretty much.

PDW

welder/fitter

09-16-2010, 11:54 PM

#2 - Professional assistance...

I guess #3 should be location of build. I'll have to re-read the posts on location & see what to add to Peter's post that pretty much summed up the subject.

pdwiley

09-17-2010, 12:12 AM

Jack Hickson

01-27-2011, 07:41 PM

To start with, a pro quality boat needs a pro to build it. By the time you are more half way throught the project you will start seeing the mistakes you made. If you can't settle for an amateur quality, finding a shipwright to work with you as a helper is an option.

There have en a lot of "Pro" Built boats here in BC I wouldn't advise anyone buying.
Foulkes boats , like the Foulkes 39 have been built here for decades, 10 guage hull plate , including he keel, welded one side only ( outside) most of the weld ground off to make it look pretty, foam over mills cale inside, no paint of any kind under the foam, Fuel tank vents in the topsides, where they go under water when the boat heels, white delrin plastic thru hulls you can easily slap off with the palm of your hand. etc etc,
Fehrs boats were similarly built.
Don't count on how long they have been around as a giude, as they have been around and building them for decades. A consciencious amateur couldn't do any worse and 95% of the time do far better.

welder/fitter

01-28-2011, 03:24 AM

There have en a lot of "Pro" Built boats here in BC I wouldn't advise anyone buying.
Foulkes boats , like the Foulkes 39 have been built here for decades, 10 guage hull plate , including he keel, welded one side only ( outside) most of the weld ground off to make it look pretty, foam over mills cale inside, no paint of any kind under the foam, Fuel tank vents in the topsides, where they go under water when the boat heels, white delrin plastic thru hulls you can easily slap off with the palm of your hand. etc etc,
Fehrs boats were similarly built.
Don't count on how long they have been around as a giude, as they have been around and building them for decades. A consciencious amateur couldn't do any worse and 95% of the time do far better.

I recall Brent Swain often making such comments, yet, having viewed 2 "Foulkes" and 3 Horizons in the past year, I see no indication of single-sided welding at the keel/hull joint, nor plastic thru-hulls nor did I notice a lack of hull paint in the insulated areas that were viewable, when checking for moisture/adhesion. I didn't notice fuel tank venting issues on the one boat that I recall considering such issues. Obviously, I can not comment on the mill scale.

I'd suggest that the belief that 95% of amateur builders do far better than professionals is, at best, wishful thinking.

Mike

Ad Hoc

01-28-2011, 04:52 AM

I'd suggest that the belief that 95% of amateur builders do far better than professionals is, at best, wishful thinking.

I agree.

Probably most amateurs, since they do not work in the professional field, are not coded. So, what does that mean...simplistically they have no real bench mark to judge whether their weld is good or bad, other than their own thoughts on the matter. A visually pleasing weld is not enough. I can produce a half decent looking welds. But when subjected to bench mark tests and x-rays...was hopeless. Luckily it is not my day job! :eek:

I've seen enough welds that "look visually" ok, but are filled with porosity and/or LOP/LOF. The causes are simple...inexperience in the set-up and procedure.

The amateurs equates "..I'm taking my time, so I'm bound to do a good job..", with quality. If were only that simple.

Jack Hickson

01-31-2011, 07:03 PM

Amazon , back in the early 80s also built a lot of one side only welded boats, caled Amazon 37's . A friend said he visited the shop when one was waiting for the spray foamer. He could see inside the gap in the cabinside - cabin top seam almost 1/8th of an inch. It was welded outside only, and most of that weld ground off. A Kiwi I met, said his friend was hunting down the owner of the business with a law suit in hand .He found his longitudinals were held in by a half inch tack every three feet. When he caught up with the owner, the company filed for bankruptcy and that was the end of his claim for compensation.
Anyone can walk down any dock with a Foulkes or Horizon and see white delrin thru hulls, and fuel tank vents in the topsides, well below the deck level.
Both are so called "Profesionally" built boats, which have been built and sold in BC for decades.
Waterline Yachts are the only properly welded, commercially built boats in BC that I'm aware of , good boats , but horrendously expensive.
Cut a weld with a torch. If there is slag in, it wil spit back at you. If it cuts cleanly, it is solid metal.

Ad Hoc

01-31-2011, 07:22 PM

"Both are so called "Profesionally" built boats...."

That depends upon your definition of "professional".

To an amateur, a professional is generally considered someone who welds for their daily job. But this is no indication of "quality" and "professionalism".

I cook everyday, does that make me a professional chef??

A professional welder, is one that has been properly trained, and had to take tests. They then have to show their competence by performing welding tests, at various thicknesses, and positions, such as down-hand or overhead.

These tests pieces are sent for independent verification and x-ray to ascertain if the weld is a quality weld and that the minimum mechanical properties are maintained, for that material. Said welder then gets a "ticket" issued from the Classification authority, such as DNV or LR, stating said welder is certified to weld XXX material over YYY thicknesses using ZZZ techniques. This cert is valid for 2 years only.

During their daily job, parts of their fabrication will be randomly checked by NDT and/or X-ray and inspected independently by the QA dept, and then by the surveyor of the Classification society to formally approve the fabrication.

A professional welder always has a current cert, and is always vigilant on their procedures, whether the shipyard has a QA dept or not. They pride themselves on doing a quality job, whether someone tells them to do so or not. When they are doing a job..if something is not right or too difficult or they know will not produce a quality joint, for whatever reason, they ask advise or seek clarification. It's their name on the job, and their pride. A professional, in whatever job, knows their limits.

I have tremendous respect for the "professional" welders i have known over the past 25 years. They have taught me a lot.

There is a big gulf in quality between a person who welds everyday in their job and a proper professional welder.

I can cook..but I'm no Jamie Oliver!

scott hightower

02-06-2011, 08:06 AM

pdwiley

02-07-2011, 05:23 AM

If your building a boat don't try it with a low buck buzz box. I would spend the extra cash on a quality welder. Since you are not likely to spend the money to xray your welds you better make sure you have a machine that will easily achieve full penetration and tie in all the welds.

Scott
Fab Manager
Welders360.com (http://www.welders360.com/)

I use a 40 year old 250A 'buzz box' welder and E4111 rods. I've welded coupons in all positions and cut them open to check penetration. I've no problems getting 100% penetration on typical plate thicknesses in small boats.

While I have a nice MIG welder and I use it quite a lot I prefer the stick welder and cellulose rods for root runs. Old used AC welders like mine are available for peanuts. A new inverter type welder would likely be better but cost more.

PDW

Landlubber

02-07-2011, 06:01 AM

pdwiley

02-07-2011, 11:30 PM

...in all aspects of boatbuilding, the poor man pays twice......

If you cannot afford a decent welder (either machine or person), well you really should just go play tiddlywinks instead of boatbuilding.

And the relevance of this to using an old industrial AC stick welder is....... ?

Also as a generalisation it's total crap. See my recent comments on Edson steering gear as a classic example. So far I've got less than a couple days work into it and it's nearly finished. For the asking price which a rich man could pay, I could have bought my lathe, milling machine, all the tooling, all the materials to make the steering gear and STILL come in under that price. When I'd finished I'd still have the tooling for the next project.

PDW

Landlubber

02-08-2011, 02:44 AM

"And the relevance of this to using an old industrial AC stick welder is....... ?"...nothing, who said it was......

"it's total crap"....well, so you say, I beg to differ. The expression I quoted means that the fellow the tries to save money by buying cheap, will eventually have to pay again for the parts/tools that he purchased....as they will fail in a short time.......i say again, it is better to buy better quality the first time around, instead of buying twice. Quality items often have very good resale prices, poor quality is even hard to sell second hand.

...the poor man pays twice DOES NOT reflect on poor people (unwealthy)...it reflects on all purchases made...

Jay and Ebben

02-17-2011, 02:09 PM

Hi All,

I have read this thread and found it VERY helpful... I hope it continues.

Would more of you share your thoughts as to the purchase of precut/nested parts? I understand the benefits of doing it all yourself - a builder clearly has more control and may make up for slight errors or changes, but if you are pretty well on the ball at set-up is the ratio for success high? are the fit tolerances generally acceptable? Pre-cut parts would certainly save some materials due to the fact that the nesting is maximized by computer. I am fascinated with the Dix 43 pilot and have generally heard a thumbs up to Dixs' plans/support efforts.

A few of you have already helped us... (thank you!) for those that don't know our story you can learn more about our quest on the post "Requesting start-up information" the post is on the same metal boat building page as this "Budgeting the Build..." thread.

By posting here I feel I am setting myself up for some 'amateur' bashing but I guess that may be part of the pre-build/feasibility study gauntlet. I am what I am!

Thank you in advance,

Jay

tazmann

02-17-2011, 05:19 PM

Jack Hickson

02-25-2011, 06:55 PM

Wiley. How did you make out in the Aussie floods and Hurricanes?
Good post. Its hard to get a buzzbox 6011 weld to break before the metal alongside it. A buzzbox is all anyone needs for a one off. There is zero benefit in buying anything more expensive.
6011 is a rod made for AC, 6010 for DC. I believe what you have is 6011, expressed in metric.

I recently saw a "professionally " built Beneteau hauled out . She had 28 white plastic delrin through hulls on he,r 80% of them below the waterline, any one of which can be easly kicked out, with little effort.
UV makes them keep getting more brittle over time. A friend nearly sunk her "professionaly built" stock fibreglas boat that way last sumer. They have long been standard practise on commercialy built plastic boats. A conscientious amateur would have used metal thru hulls.
Hiscock had his steel boat profesionaly built by the Dutch. She had plywood bolted over her decks, then teak over that, as well as a lot of wood trim over the steel ,the biggest maintenance mistakes one can make. She had a lot of hull filler on her, to hide the distortion. She had only tiny zincs, bolted on.
Had she been done properly , Hiscock would have become a great spokesman for steel. Instead, the opposite was the case, thanks to the Dutch "professionals" who built her.
Steel weld failures on amateur built steel boats are extremely rare. If you grind out the slag before putting the second pass on, it's extremely hard to get incusion of slag which is not there.To get a bad weld , you really have to work on it.
Vancouver marine surveyor Paul Dupre , bought the most horrendous example of abysmaly poor steel work imaginable, for the gear on it, a boat called "Waskazoo." After stripping the goodies off it, he tried to break it up with a back hoe. After 8 hours of banging on it with the backhoe, he couldn't get a single weld to break. Only a cutting torch could reduce it.
Welders grossly over rate their importance, and what they do. .

MikeJohns

02-25-2011, 09:04 PM

You wouldn't really expect to break it up with an excavator would you?

And I strongly disagree with you, welding skill is very important.

There are many low stressed welds on a small steel vessel. But there are also critical welds in high stress areas which don't tolerate poor welding if the vessel is really put through its design loadings.

I think it's important to consider that design loads for an offshore vessel are considerably higher than most boats will see even once over a lifetime in sheltered operations.
I've seen several split welds in hull plating and they can let go with a bang when there's a lot of residual stress present. The steel USCG registered Roberts 53 that broke it's rudder skeg in heavy weather and sank is a good example. Had the welding been up to standard its unlikely that would have failed.

tazmann

02-25-2011, 09:48 PM

welder/fitter

02-26-2011, 02:49 AM

6011 is a rod made for AC, 6010 for DC. I believe what you have is 6011, expressed in metric.
No, Brent, as usual, you're incorrect. 6011 can be used on DCEP(reverse polarity), as well as AC. Maybe you should stick to something you know.

Jack Hickson

03-07-2011, 06:57 PM

Jack Hickson

03-07-2011, 07:00 PM

MikeJohns

03-07-2011, 07:26 PM

I think it should be clariified what the meaning of a buz box welder is. to me it would be a 200 amp min Ac that runs on 220 volt not a 110 volt Harbor freight peice of junk ? Allthough I have have used a 110 volt jobber in a pinch to get me home.

Mike Johns
On the skeg of say a Roberts design for all up strength would we be better off slotting the hull and running the skeg up in side the hull with webbing connected and capped ?

Tom

Hi Tom, sorry I missed this .

Yes with keels too it's really better to run the keel plate up inside past the garboard/lower hull plating and fillet weld both sdes if possible. That adds a lot of redundancy . Just offering the fin up to the plate requires a very good fit and a good weld and usually thicker hull plate by way of the skeg/keel.

With extreme fins it's better to take them well inside and get the max bending moment away from the hull keel join.

You can attach skegs reliably direct to hull plate providing they are designed and built properly. Other designers have done this reliably for many decades. It's all down to the factor of safety in the weld stress, for example a longer of wider skeg has a lower connection stress than a short narrow skeg.

tazmann

03-07-2011, 09:46 PM

Hi Tom, sorry I missed this .

Yes with keels too it's really better to run the keel plate up inside past the garboard/lower hull plating and fillet weld both sdes if possible. That adds a lot of redundancy . Just offering the fin up to the plate requires a very good fit and a good weld and usually thicker hull plate by way of the skeg/keel.

With extreme fins it's better to take them well inside and get the max bending moment away from the hull keel join.

You can attach skegs reliably direct to hull plate providing they are designed and built properly. Other designers have done this reliably for many decades. It's all down to the factor of safety in the weld stress, for example a longer of wider skeg has a lower connection stress than a short narrow skeg.

Thanks Mike
That does make more sense to do it that way, with a little luck in the worse case stenerio it would fold over rather than tear a hole in the hull.
Tom

pdwiley

03-08-2011, 06:22 PM

Wiley. How did you make out in the Aussie floods and Hurricanes?
Good post. Its hard to get a buzzbox 6011 weld to break before the metal alongside it. A buzzbox is all anyone needs for a one off. There is zero benefit in buying anything more expensive.
6011 is a rod made for AC, 6010 for DC. I believe what you have is 6011, expressed in metric.

No problems with floods & cyclones, I'm a long way away from them. Still waiting for sea level rise so I can launch from the bottom of my yard though. I suspect it'll be a real long wait so I have a plan B.

Yeah E4111 is the same as E6011. Funnily enough they're now E4311, haven't bothered to read what the difference is.

Just out of curiosity I did a 2 pass weld in 4mm hull plate scrap using 2.5mm E4311 rods, one pass each side, slight double V prep. Didn't back-grind when I flipped it over, just welded. I then cut the scrap across the weld in 4 different places looking for slag inclusions. There weren't any. The black paper soot from the cellulose flux burns out. I don't recommend this as acceptable technique, but it matches my prior use of cellulose flux rods.

I broke down and bought a good MIG. I didn't need it but I like metalworking toys and it's a hell of a lot easier to tack with one hand using the MIG. Ditto welding in tight spaces. I'm using the MIG for all my hull plate welding because it's faster and easier, not because I have to. And I am grinding back the butts before the 2nd pass. I expect do do quite a lot of stainless to A36 plate welding and while I've a lot of E309, 308 and 316L rods I'd rather use the MIG with the proper shielding gas.

PDW

pdwiley

03-08-2011, 06:25 PM

I think it should be clariified what the meaning of a buz box welder is. to me it would be a 200 amp min Ac that runs on 220 volt not a 110 volt Harbor freight peice of junk ?
Tom

Yes, that's what I meant. Lots available used on Ebay and the like. Mine is nearly 50 years old, 250A output at 60% duty cycle. Worth maybe $200 at most.

When I bought a MIG I was most careful to look at the duty rating as there are a lot advertised as 250A MIG units. Suuure, at 10% duty cycle.

PDW

Jack Hickson

03-08-2011, 07:47 PM

welder/fitter

03-08-2011, 11:50 PM

The first number is the tensile strength, the second the freezing rate. Looks like they upped the tensile strength. Nothing reduces the odds of slag inclusion nearly as well as 6011, as nothing penetrates as well.
In his latest book , Roberts says he designs his skegs to fall off if they hit anything. Looks like he succeeded . Nothing attaching the skeg to the skin alone is anywhere near as strong as running it up inside.

:rolleyes:

AWS uses a standardized coding system to identify SMAW electrodes. Codes are printed on the side of each SMAW electrode and represent specific properties. For the mild steel electrodes mentioned previously, here is how the AWS system works:

◦The letter E indicates an electrode.
◦The first two digits represent the resulting weld's minimum tensile strength, measured in pounds per square inch (PSI). For example, the number 70 in a E7018 electrode indicates that the electrode will produce a weld bead with a minimum tensile strength of 70,000 PSI.
◦The third digit represents the welding positions for which the electrode can be used. For example, 1 means the electrode can be used in all positions and 2 means it can be used on flat and horizontal.
◦The fourth digit represents the coating type and the type of welding current (AC, DC, or both) that can be used with the electrode.

MikeJohns

03-09-2011, 03:29 AM

.........
In his latest book , Roberts says he designs his skegs to fall off if they hit anything. Looks like he succeeded . .........

Brent

What book ?

Searching Roberts latest book and he says:
"skegs can be vulnerable to damage and must be designed to withstand a grounding"
Nowhere does he say they should fall off which seems rather questionable since they are supporting the rudder heel bearing.

So I'm interested, where did you get this from?

Jack Hickson

03-09-2011, 04:50 PM

He said skegs should not be too strongly attached to the hull, as you want them to break away if they hit anything. I'll check the bookstores and get back to you.

welder/fitter

03-11-2011, 12:29 AM

On the Bruce Roberts web-site, the last thing that BR seems to be supporting is break-away skegs:

ROBERTS SAFETY SKEG: Back in the late 1960’s when we started to design boats with skegs they seems to be the answer to all steering and handling problems sometimes associated with the long keel / rudder hung off the back of the keel configuration. Alas time has proven that the skeg is one of the most vulnerable items of the underwater area of your sailboat. One solution was the Roberts ‘Contemporary Long Keel’ which has proved to have most of the benefits of the skeg and none of the vulnerability of the normal skeg. A more recent development in combines the benefits of a skeg and long fin keel arrangement; this is achieved by tying the aft end of the keel to bottom of the skeg by way of a bar or heel; see sketch for detail.
http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/NEW-ITEMS.htm

However, Discussions of what a specific designer may/may not have said are way off topic, imho.

TeddyDiver

03-11-2011, 12:57 AM

this is achieved by tying the aft end of the keel to bottom of the skeg by way of a bar or heel
That's about what I've been a bit considering lately, with the difference of having twin rudders. Point being easier shaft removal (incase), landing the boat like a bilge keelers do and better protected screw..

welder/fitter

03-14-2011, 04:46 PM

That's about what I've been a bit considering lately, with the difference of having twin rudders. Point being easier shaft removal (incase), landing the boat like a bilge keelers do and better protected screw..

I wanted to point out that BR's introduction of the "safety skeg" doesn't support Brent's suggestion that BR wants his skegs to break off, rather, that he has addressed what he considered a potential weakness. Personally,
my concern would be that the bar on the safety skeg design would be a place for all kinds of crap to get caught on. In our waters, it wouldn't take long to collect several hundred pounds of seaweed. An adaption of the "Brewer bite" would add support, yet, not offer more appendages for stuff to become hung-up on. Just a thought.

Mike

Jack Hickson

03-14-2011, 06:55 PM

I wanted to point out that BR's introduction of the "safety skeg" doesn't support Brent's suggestion that BR wants his skegs to break off, rather, that he has addressed what he considered a potential weakness. Personally,
my concern would be that the bar on the safety skeg design would be a place for all kinds of crap to get caught on. In our waters, it wouldn't take long to collect several hundred pounds of seaweed. An adaption of the "Brewer bite" would add support, yet, not offer more appendages for stuff to become hung-up on. Just a thought.

Mike

Agreed. A big BC log in rough water, in the middle of the night there, could be real exciting. They even snag on the open bow sometimes , Enough trouble and excitement getting them free. . I wouldn't want it any more exciting.
A friend ,finding a Roberts 53 in Austraila ,which had sunk in the night from a skeg failure, welded a couple of flatbars from the hull either side of the skeg to the bottom, on his Roberts 53 skeg before finishing his circumnavigation. I saw several more hauled out in Sidney, who had done the same to their Roberts skegs.