View Full Version : The perfect Passagemaker? (style within this genre)


Pages : [1] 2

apex1
08-08-2010, 04:42 PM
Hey Peers,

let me beg you to vote for your favourite design of a passagemaking motoryacht.


The vessel in question will be a motoryacht of about 23 to 25 meter Loa. A size I personally
call perfect for long ocean voyages with two people and no crew.
The yacht is planned for a couple with children and occasional friends.
She will provide a Maximum of 6 berths.
The boat will have transpacific range and a endurance of 90 days.


Let us assume price and cost are not the main concern. (well, I now)

Further let us assume all boats are of similar material and size, and are about equal in terms of prize,
cost, seaworthiness, performance and speed.

Which one of the designs shown is your favourite in terms of styling? Or do you have another style motoryacht you would choose? (if so, please post a picture)


Please let us focus on the styling only!

No discussions about material, propulsion or other technical features.
Of course one should comment why a style is preferred. (more accommodation when the wheelhouse is in front for example)


1)
The North Sea Trawler, the mother of all trawlers.

2)
A Gentlemans yacht from the 60ies (a Fairmile built in this case)

3)
A fantail "steamer" in the style of the 20ies.

4)
A "supply vessel" appearance.

5)
A tri deck yacht in classical style.

6)
A tri deck in contemporary style.

7)
The US American translation of "trawler".

8)
stands for the first proposal to come up here...........(the passagemaker light 80´)

9)
stands for the second proposed vessel................


Again,

please, we are talking style only, Your preferred style, thats it!

Thank you all for your contribution.

Richard

Tad
08-08-2010, 06:51 PM
I like this one.....

46230

And this old one....I think she's off around the world or just back...Ted Geary design

46231

The Christensen 78 is more modern

46232

As is the 88'

46233

And finally the Passagemaker Lite 98', as adapted for Hydrographic work in the Arctic Ocean

46234

KnottyBuoyz
08-08-2010, 07:44 PM
If I could have won enough money I would have built this.....

J. Simpson Off Shore 45 Tug
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/KnottyBuoyz/KBIII/OC45GA1tug.jpg

dskira
08-08-2010, 08:21 PM
The 60ies It was a time of great design, in Holland as in England.
A time when Fred Parker was at his height and the Fiedship was doing some real beauty.
I am a sucker for this style:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/46219d1281296383-perfect-passagemaker-fairmile1.jpg

But my heart is also toward the Dutch offshore salvage tugboat of the same period.
The Lone Wolf is one of the rare survivor although almost disfigured by "designers"

But making matter more complicated, Rosen Cavalier remain the queen of all time in my view.
Also disfigured by countless "designer" but OK.
Unfair since the vessels I am naming are far larger.
I can dream!
But in the context of the size required, the Fairmile style is my favorite.

Daniel

hoytedow
08-08-2010, 09:00 PM
Great thread. I like #1 the best because it seems most sea-worthy stability-wise and holds fewer people irritation-wise.

TeddyDiver
08-08-2010, 10:29 PM
Defineatly #3 It's gorgeous in a modest way. Couldn't imagine anyother style of a cruiser to lie anchored by the Eastern island then bound towards Fatuhiva with grace and dignity in....
I'm starting to cry.. :D
BR Teddy

mydauphin
08-08-2010, 10:42 PM
I like the sixties trawler also. Just modernize it a little. Make draft shallower, lighter, aluminum. Modern engines, bow thruster etc. Make rear area open more wide open and bigger. Most balanced look, best layout for the size. But I disagree on size for two people and other issues involved 64 feet is max. Fifty something might even be better, I have a 72' so I speak from experience.

EuroCanal
08-09-2010, 05:08 AM
If I had to choose from your list, it would be the Nordhavn (ignoring quesitons about GRP construction, interior design etc)

In reality, I would also want something that can go along the Rhein and Mosel, so would choose a Boomelaer. It's discussable whether it is sufficiently ocean-going, maybe. At 20m it's a bit too small for your spec, but it has 7 berths.

http://www.jettenyachting.nl/Bommelaer/images/1900_BlueWater/gallery/01.jpg

http://www.jettenyachting.nl/Bommelaer/images/1900/gallery/01.jpg

Brian@BNE
08-09-2010, 08:44 AM
Long, skinny and low. Fuel costs are only going to increase, probably by a lot. OK, all private vessels spend a lot of time anchored/moored so its running hours times gph that counts. Although fuel might only be something like 20% of annual cost of ownership, its a variable cost that is more easily controlled than other costs and thus rightly gets a lot of attention.

The passagemaking capability Richard specified can be met at 10-14 knots, or a bit slower if time is not an issue and fuel bill is front of mind. The basic question was of course style , and for me #2 wins there as well.

But I'd want to get some internal arrangements from Tad for his Passagemaker Lite 80, as I think it has even better styling and I expect would be able to provide the specified 6 berths with all liveaboard comforts of home. But a bit extravagant for two with occasional guests.....

Tad
08-09-2010, 01:09 PM
As a passagemaker is specified, the inference is that she will be used to go places......thus fuel use would be a concern....but the question only concerned styling.......Once the style is settled practical aspects can be addressed, ie any hull form, construction, or powering can be integrated into the style........how well that works is up to the drawing guy.......

PL 80 arrangement attached below.........

46283

Tad
08-09-2010, 01:16 PM
The Boomelaer's are nice looking models but to me that bow looks awfully blunt. She would be fine at low speed in flat water....canal cruising......but offshore in big waves would be very wet. At higher speed the resistance of those full waterlines forward would really bother me.....add another 10' forward and fine up the bow please.......

RHP
08-09-2010, 01:38 PM
The 60ies It was a time of great design, in Holland as in England.
A time when Fred Parker was at his height and the Fiedship was doing some real beauty.
I am a sucker for this style:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/46219d1281296383-perfect-passagemaker-fairmile1.jpg

But my heart is also toward the Dutch offshore salvage tugboat of the same period.
The Lone Wolf is one of the rare survivor although almost disfigured by "designers"

But making matter more complicated, Rosen Cavalier remain the queen of all time in my view.
Also disfigured by countless "designer" but OK.
Unfair since the vessels I am naming are far larger.
I can dream!
But in the context of the size required, the Fairmile style is my favorite.

Daniel

Hear the man, hear the man! :cool:

apex1
08-09-2010, 03:00 PM
You must be kidding: 80-90 feet for two people and no crew, burning heaps of oil to have fun at the sea?!?
The perfect passagemaker uses sails.

Well,

that was to expect, that the very first comment is a brilliant example of ignorance and missing the point completely................
These vessels, when designed right, are far away from being guzzlers, and can probably be cheaper operated than a sailing boat of similar size.
The size is absolutely right for a couple, yes, no doubt. Though I said 23 - 25 meter not 27!

But that was not the question Mr. Magwas:!: All the rest of the contributors have grasped that!


TAD

thanks for your comments. The Geary design is very close to the Gerr design I posted as #3! Sure a beauty though.

I would like to make your passagemaker light the #8 on the poll list, named first proposal. Ok?

Would you post a picture please?

Knotty

thats a nice boat, no doubt, but 1/4 the size we are talking..........

Euro Canal

the Bommelaer is a really ugly duck and I doubt she is the best choice for ocean passages.


For the rest of you another picture of the by so far top voted, the old Fairmile yacht:

http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Rose5_virginiaC_ex_tavit.gif
....the bloody sh!t does´nt function again, ahhh what a country .....turkey...
I post it as attachement.

And sorry for repeating it,

STYLING is the question
some don´t grasp that obviously................

Regards
Richard

marshmat
08-09-2010, 03:15 PM
As powerboats go, I find the classic styling of #2 (the Fairmile) to be the type that invariably catches my eye.... there are plenty of eye-catching modern ones too, but there's a difference between "That's really elegant and beautiful" and "Did the Starship Voyager lose a shuttle?" eye-catching.

A nice, positive sheer, echoed in the superstructure... combine with a stout raised pilothouse, sheltered side decks, and a low, trim overall profile, put it on a good sea boat hull like that of a Dashew yacht (none of this overloaded-freighter stuff you see in marina queens) and the result is undoubtedly "elegant, classy passagemaker". The classical tri-deck (#5) shares similar traits, if the superstructure isn't too large, but you often see them built too high for their length.

Tad
08-09-2010, 04:24 PM
Here's the PL 56'

46286

goodwilltoall
08-09-2010, 07:33 PM
The Bolger Illinois

Landlubber
08-09-2010, 08:10 PM
North Sea trawler gets my vote.

For an economical engine try the Weichai R6160 series marine diesel engine.
http://www.weichai.com/e_products/channel/detail_1685.shtml

I saw them at the Shanghai Boat show, very nice piece of work, but of course, not German (neither is the price).

Brian@BNE
08-09-2010, 09:20 PM
TAD


I would like to make your passagemaker light the #8 on the poll list, named first proposal. Ok?

Would you post a picture please?
[B]


Regards
Richard

Richard, I've added a rendered thumbnail of the PL 80 to my earlier post (#10), and enthusiastically support it becoming #8 in your poll. BUT, I've already voted, so how will I be able to change vote from #2 to #8 ?:confused:

Tad
08-09-2010, 09:26 PM
The Cammenga Atlantic (72') and Pacific (85') Class trawler yachts designed by Willem de Vries Lentsch have always been favorites of mine.....I suppose they are related to the 1st design (North Sea Trawler).

46294

46295

46296

RHP
08-09-2010, 09:50 PM
Tad, that Cammenga 85' yacht has always stood out as a beautiful yacht, extremely graceful yet purposeful. i dont think any manufacturer has successfully recreated such balance in design since.

http://uk.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?luom=127&units=Meters&currencyid=1005&currency=GBP&checked_boats=2096651&checked_boats=2150272&checked_boats=1664802&checked_boats=2011498&checked_boats=2127192&checked_boats=2213113&checked_boats=2141698&checked_boats=2211799&details=Show+Details

Landlubber
08-10-2010, 04:24 AM
....emmmm....now I am dreaming again of owning a boat.....silly bugger.

daiquiri
08-10-2010, 11:43 AM
Tad, that Cammenga 85' yacht has always stood out as a beautiful yacht, extremely graceful yet purposeful. i dont think any manufacturer has successfully recreated such balance in design since.

I agree. That's a timeless beauty.

marshmat
08-10-2010, 12:02 PM
I must concur with RHP and daiquiri regarding the 85' Cammenga.....

apex1
08-10-2010, 03:44 PM
Richard, I've added a rendered thumbnail of the PL 80 to my earlier post (#10), and enthusiastically support it becoming #8 in your poll. BUT, I've already voted, so how will I be able to change vote from #2 to #8 ?:confused:

Thats not possible, sorry.

And thanks for the picture!

The Cammenga Atlantic (72') and Pacific (85') Class trawler yachts designed by Willem de Vries Lentsch have always been favorites of mine.....I suppose they are related to the 1st design (North Sea Trawler).


Willem de Vries Lentsch was a wizard, he designed the most beautiful yachts ever (imho) see Haakvorts "Spada" or "Saga"
http://www.imgbox.de/img/apex1/saga001.jpg (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/saga001.jpg)

I would not relate the Cammenga boats to #1 but to Daniel Skira´s #5 "Classical Tri deck".

North Sea trawler gets my vote.

For an economical engine try the Weichai R6160 series marine diesel engine.
http://www.weichai.com/e_products/channel/detail_1685.shtml

I saw them at the Shanghai Boat show, very nice piece of work, but of course, not German (neither is the price).

Thank you Lubs.

Most probably I will put a 80 liter Grenaa Diesel in a boat of such size. That is a Danish make and the price is not German either..............500.000 US$ per piece!!! But they last forever and run on everything that looks a bit oily. TBO 15.000hrs......


Regards
Richard

goodwilltoall
08-10-2010, 04:37 PM
Bolger Illinois

apex1
08-10-2010, 05:14 PM
Bolger Illinois

Hmm,

I am not sure if you have read the opening post!?

BTW I do not share the common enthusiasm about Bolger designs............
... and this one sure will sink when I put a Grenaa 6cyl. in.

Pierre R
08-10-2010, 06:24 PM
Bolger IllinoisYeah, that's a house boat not a passagemaker.

mydauphin
08-10-2010, 07:27 PM
Yeah, that's a house boat not a passagemaker.

I don't mean to sound mean to you Goodwilltoall, if I do - I apologize. But based on your previous posts--- Do you understand the forces that a boat even in a protected bay have to endure. A passagemaker has to be able to cross oceans like California to Hawaii or Miami to Bermuda to Azores.

It has to have the fuel, engines, seaworthyness, and comfort to endure 40 foot swells, perhaps even a good flip or two. All the while doing it in style and comfort.

If your laughing at my flip or two, build your boat that way... then you wont have to worry too much if it does.

Easy Rider
08-11-2010, 01:11 AM
Is the attachment 46295 the Cammenga Atlantic 72.
Thats the one everybody's Ga Ga over right? Well I'm Ga Ga too
BUT ..it's not perfect.
1. The shape of the stern is too close to part of a sphere. Perhaps it would look better if it had a reverse curve stem like many Dutch boats. Perhaps it needs to be more elliptical or perhaps I just can't see the stern well enough. The stern on my Willard 30 is more attractive and I consider it average for the type.
My favorite Trawler is the Nordhavn 46 and it's stern is even less attractive.
Come to think of it the only stern I can think of (and I have a pic) that I like that would be suitable for the type is on this Garden designed wood trawler that stopped in Thorne Bay 2yrs ago.
2. The other thing I don't like is those slanted upper deck posts. They have become vogue and I consider them trite (visually). Ther'e slab like too. Two inch ss stanchion tubes slanted but slanted less would look better and allow the
sheer line and upper deck line to dominate the midship lines as they should.

Easy Rider

Willallison
08-11-2010, 03:56 AM
Hmm.... perplexing choice you've offered us Richard...

I much prefer the long, low look. No matter the actual stability and seaworthiness, I just can't come at any boat that looks like it's about to fall over.
I hate rounded sterns. Sorry... just a personal thing;)
Of those shown, that leaves me with Tad's 88 (the 1st one he posted back in post #2). A great looking boat, and one of a number from his passagemaker series that I really like...

I find it interesting that you've left out a number of quite well known and succesful passagemaker's... Dashew's Windhorse springs to mind as an example. Not that it would get my vote on aesthetics...

Since so many others have, I'll offer up one of my own. It's not really intended as a trans-ocean passagemaker - more of an extended coastal cruiser. Nor does it fit within your length constraints, being 'only' 62 feet long, but what the hell....:D

MikeJohns
08-11-2010, 06:14 AM
The Fairmile style would be my choice. An ageless style and grace that will never be outdated while having enough practical features to be interesting to the eye. They are capable and comfortable passage makers too.

FAST FRED
08-11-2010, 07:12 AM
If a cruiser is going to loose the space aft for any kind of roundy or pointy stern , then the space lost should be made up by having the stern usefull im manuvering.

The typical tug stern will allow turning by resting the stern against a wall or pilings , a big help in tight quarters.

FF

daiquiri
08-11-2010, 10:54 AM
I've re-read the initial post... Ok, we should be talking only about aesthetics here. But still, I believe that a trans-oceanic yacht with a 90 days of autonomous navigation requirement should not have huge lateral windows in combination with low freeboard, such as seen in some of the models proposed in various posts. Those are weak points of the structure and are too vulnerable in case of a severe storm with breaking waves. It is a possibility one has to consider and account for at design and styling stage, imho. Richard surely already knows these things, so to him this is probably a superfluous consideration. Still, I wanted to say this after seeing some of the pics - you guys please feel free to dissent. :)

RHP
08-11-2010, 04:40 PM
Is the attachment 46295 the Cammenga Atlantic 72.
Thats the one everybody's Ga Ga over right? Well I'm Ga Ga too
BUT ..it's not perfect.
1. The shape of the stern is too close to part of a sphere. Perhaps it would look better if it had a reverse curve stem like many Dutch boats. Perhaps it needs to be more elliptical or perhaps I just can't see the stern well enough. The stern on my Willard 30 is more attractive and I consider it average for the type.
My favorite Trawler is the Nordhavn 46 and it's stern is even less attractive.
Come to think of it the only stern I can think of (and I have a pic) that I like that would be suitable for the type is on this Garden designed wood trawler that stopped in Thorne Bay 2yrs ago.
2. The other thing I don't like is those slanted upper deck posts. They have become vogue and I consider them trite (visually). Ther'e slab like too. Two inch ss stanchion tubes slanted but slanted less would look better and allow the
sheer line and upper deck line to dominate the midship lines as they should.

Easy Rider

Easy,

I´ve seen pictures of these Cammenga yachts for 30 years and I´ve never had an issue with teh stern, maybe its the angle of this particular pic however for me the design flows from bow to stern.

These boats were build in the mid/late 70´s so the upper deck posts are not following a modern trend but following the design of the North Sea trawlers from that period.

She´s period and IMHO stylishly very effective.

Richard

Pierre R
08-11-2010, 04:55 PM
Is it just me or do others think that boats that don't invite one to dissembark and board a dink easily just don't look right for a passagemaker?

goodwilltoall
08-11-2010, 05:52 PM
Sorry for the confusion,

The Illinois is a smaller ship than 25M and also it would not be appropriate for ocean journeys, but the styling is excellent.

The George Buehler "Ellemaid" has good proportions except for it being to top heavy. Also it seems to have good seaworthiness.

In regards to "Windhorse": Has good styling.

Easy Rider
08-11-2010, 09:44 PM
RHP,
I thought I was harsh on the cat man but you don't hold back at all.
I was critical of the Cammenga like someone that said Farah Fawcet had 14 too many eye lashes. Just saying the stern wasn't quite right and showing a boat that had a good stern. The saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is misleading, evasive and simply not true. The ability to know beauty is to observe, consider, analyze and compare over a long period of time. To interact heavily in the company of those that DO know beauty is probably the fastest road to knowing it yourself. DNA may play a part in it but I think it is mostly learned. Form follows function but the resulting form may NOT be beautiful.
But it may perform it's function beautifully.
The definition of design is "An organized solution to a problem" There is nothing in the definition about beauty.

wardd
08-11-2010, 09:52 PM
I think the liberty ship was beautiful

dskira
08-11-2010, 10:26 PM
Most probably I will put a 80 liter Grenaa Diesel in a boat of such size. That is a Danish make and the price is not German either..............500.000 US$ per piece!!! But they last forever and run on everything that looks a bit oily. TBO 15.000hrs......


Regards
Richard

Now we are going to the heart of the beast.
We have already a let say 8 tons in main machinery without any ancillaries.
So the underwater start to be interesting, we are talking ship here.
A nice transpacific range perhaps (7000 nm)?
A good 15 tons fuels, some 8 tons freshwater, some 2 tons black water.
6 tons of genny and ancillaries.
Food for 6 for 40 days 2tons to 5 tons
We start with a nice 44 tons (a vague approximation) of inside weight in full displacement mode.
Now we will have the rest meaning the ship and all the ancillaries around.
Good displacement never hurt. At let say 22m. Lwl a healthy D/L of 317 @ 136 tons. Can go easily to 160 tons.
Just thinking outloud

Daniel

BillAU
08-11-2010, 11:08 PM
How about a 15m (50ft) Defever Offshore Cruiser from 1970? Similar to the 45ft Defever in the picture below.

http://allboatinghub.com/images/Defever44.jpg

Specs' are as follows:

Builder: Defever

Dimensions:
LOA: 50 ft 0 in
Beam: 14 ft 5 in
Maximum Draft: 5 ft 9 in
Bridge Clearance: 36 ft 0 in

Engine:
Engine Brand: Caterpillar
Engine Model: D-330
Total Power: 200HP

Displacement: 60000

Tanks
Fuel: 1400
Fresh Water: 400
Holding: 40

I'm no expert on cruising the world in a small power cruiser but I think the Defever 15m Offshore Cruiser, with 1400 gal' of diesel could Island hop the Pacific and would be a suitable boat and, to me...They look good too :)

Pierre R
08-11-2010, 11:57 PM
I'm no expert on cruising the world in a small power cruiser but I think the Defever 15m Offshore Cruiser, with 1400gals of diesel could Island hop the Pacific and would be a suitable boat and, to me...They look good too :)In my opinion, definitely not. Her hull form is not suitable, her house is not protected enough and she has does not have enough fuel for island hopping the Pacific.

The Defever is a great coastal cruiser very suitable for going to the Carib from North America or Indonesia from Australia. Crossing the Atlantic would be a crap shoot.

BillAU
08-12-2010, 12:33 AM
In my opinion, definitely not. Her hull form is not suitable, her house is not protected enough and she has does not have enough fuel for island hopping the Pacific.

The Defever is a great coastal cruiser very suitable for going to the Carib from North America or Indonesia from Australia. Crossing the Atlantic would be a crap shoot.
Like I said in my post, I'm no expert on what "I" term, small cruisers, I'm more used to crossing oceans on ships with a 14,000HP, or larger, twin aposed Duxford engine but...I do like the look of a DeFever :)

On further research on DeFever yachts, I found the following on Arthur DeFever, the designer, on http://www.defevercruisers.com/defever_history.asp

Quote:
Arthur DeFever spent his early years designing commercial tuna clippers for the San Diego fleet. These vessels proved highly reliable and seaworthy. They stayed away from port for weeks at a time, traveling long distances to Central and South America before returning safely with their catch.

In the early 1960s, Arthur joined the Offshore Cruising Society. At the time, long range cruising in private yachts was virtually always done in sailboats. His friends suggested that he design a seaworthy cruising powerboat that would have sufficient range to make the long runs up and down the Pacific coast into Mexico or Alaska. So Arthur designed several pleasure craft for that organization in the 38 to 54 foot range. These were deep draft, full-displacement, diesel-powered vessels that were capable of prolonged Pacific passages in comfort and safety. Many were constructed of wood at the Lindwall yard in Santa Barbara.
End Quote:

Perhaps someone who owns a DeFever and cruises the Pacific, to Hawii and/or further afield, will let us know what they think of “their” DeFiver and how she performs at sea.
After all, Arthur DeFiver designed safe commercial Tuna boats for the American Pacific Tuna fleet, and by all accounts, American Tuna boats are great, safe seagoing boats.
As to the 15m DeFever I mentioned, not having enough diesel to Island hop the Pacific, 1400 US gallons = 5,299.6 liters! I feel 4,000 liters would be enough to Island hop, holding 1,299.6 liters in reserve. But...As Hawaii is 2390 miles from California, I could well be wrong about that :) Still...One could carry extra diesel in 44gal drums on deck ;)

Just my 2c worth on a safe blue water powerboat :)

MikeJohns
08-12-2010, 05:01 AM
Which Granaa ? I see the 80litre come in three flavors 450, 900 and 1030 HP all at 750 RPM same sized engines.

Pierre R
08-12-2010, 08:24 AM
As to the 15m DeFever I mentioned, not having enough diesel to Island hop the Pacific, 1400 US gallons = 5,299.6 liters! I feel 4,000 liters would be enough to Island hop, holding 1,299.6 liters in reserve. But...As Hawaii is 2390 miles from California, I could well be wrong about that :) Still...One could carry extra diesel in 44gal drums on deck ;)

Just my 2c worth on a safe blue water powerboat :)Throttled way back to around 6.5 knots or so you can probably get to Hawaii and the weather along the southern route is generally good. But, How are you going to return?

RHP
08-12-2010, 08:47 AM
RHP,
I thought I was harsh on the cat man but you don't hold back at all.
I was critical of the Cammenga like someone that said Farah Fawcet had 14 too many eye lashes. Just saying the stern wasn't quite right and showing a boat that had a good stern. The saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is misleading, evasive and simply not true. The ability to know beauty is to observe, consider, analyze and compare over a long period of time. To interact heavily in the company of those that DO know beauty is probably the fastest road to knowing it yourself. DNA may play a part in it but I think it is mostly learned. Form follows function but the resulting form may NOT be beautiful.
But it may perform it's function beautifully.
The definition of design is "An organized solution to a problem" There is nothing in the definition about beauty.


Good post Easy, some thought provoking comments.

Easy Rider
08-12-2010, 01:29 PM
I reread the post (original) and have made my decision.
My vote is for the gentleman's yacht of the 60s.
She is truly beautiful. It's also my opinion that yachts newer than the 60s are less and less beautiful. The average boat from the late 50s and all the 60s were generally speaking (or as a whole) better looking. The only other boat on the list that is beautiful is the "Tri-deck (classical style).
1. North Sea Trawler.
A very attractive, salty and sea kindly looking vessel. To be beautiful one needs graceful lines and a balance of mass. Visual balance is better achieved with the mass centered rather than at the extreme ends. The stern on the NST pictured is not one of grace. A handsome boat but not beautiful.
2. Gentleman's Yacht (60s) Truly beautiful.
3. Fantail Steamer style. I love these boats but with all the vertical windows, stanchions, ports and other repeated shapes and lines they take on a visual aura of a merry-go-round. With all that glass and burry me forefoot bow I'm not sure if we can really call them Passage Makers.
4. Supply Vessel.
A handsome vessel, cool looking, masculine looking, neat looking but nary a graceful line. I think we're looking for Collies, not bulldogs. The visual strength is almost exciting but not beautiful.
5. Tri-.Deck (classical style)
This is the only other vessel that is beautiful. A strong 2nd place. It lacks the level of grace and swan like quality the gentlemen's yacht has. Definitely a beautiful boat though.
6. US Trawler. The Nordhavn pictured, from a standpoint of beauty is a bad example. Not described as HRP would by me but somewhat close. The Nordhavn 46 is a beautiful boat (except the stern) but all other Nordhavn's have next to no grace at all. Mass is out of balance (huge bow low stern(to a fault)). Lines are chopped up, flow nowhere and shapes of pieces of the boat are are even ugly. If the example was a Fleming or even an older Grand Banks I could have said more flattering things to say. Actually some Flemings could be a contender here.

Respectfully
Easy Rider

Tad
08-12-2010, 01:46 PM
Here's another pic of the boat Easy posted a stern shot of, She was originally called Nisku, built by Philbrook's Boatyard in Sidney BC in 1970.

46392

And another of my own efforts which will have the range, again her styling is tied to the North Sea Trawler type. The Ocean 55' in steel.

46393

46394

A DeFever design I've done a fair amount of work on, and cruised aboard. The 60' Island Eagle.

46395

And some steel Romsdals from Norway

46396

RHP
08-12-2010, 04:01 PM
Congrats on the Ocean 55 Tad, very nice, but how usable is the raised aft deck at sea?

Tad
08-12-2010, 05:26 PM
but how usable is the raised aft deck at sea?

Usable? Not......usable at sea outside space was not in the SOR for this commission. If such a space was required I would build a flying bridge behind the pilothouse with direct access down into the PH.

Manie B
08-13-2010, 02:26 AM
What a beauty

balanced rudders - bow thrusters - adjustable stabilizer fins - twin screw

what a ride, and for its size will be economical enough

Boston
08-13-2010, 09:32 AM
that 55 looks great Tad

apex1
08-13-2010, 04:42 PM
Which Granaa ? I see the 80litre come in three flavors 450, 900 and 1030 HP all at 750 RPM same sized engines.

6F24TK Mike. (the 4th flavour) you know her from my "Trawler thread"
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/metal-boat-building/34608d1251943345-offer-true-go-anywhere-trawler-build-side-side-grenaa-diesel.jpg

That beast does 600hp at 600rpm, displacement is 81 liters, weight incl CPP, shaft, servogear, clutch is 8,7 tonnes.


Apex, Do you really think going seriously to sea with only 2 people aboard on most of these boats as prudent and safe? Easy

Definetively yes.
Not only I do think so. There are several hundred couples out there cruising the world without crew.
The vessels size is more or less limited by the workload on maintenance a couple can stand, and second, port handling. I therefore would say something around 30 meter is the max. size for two skilled people. (many Lowland and Moonen boats between 24 and 30 meter are operated by the owners couple only, as are most of the Hatteras´ses from 70 to 80ft)

Regards
Richard

One interesting sidenote:
we have already two votes for the "second proposal" but there was no second proposal by so far! (given the fact tha I decide which one is accepted as the second one) <mod note inserted: removed those two votes and set that option to 0>

MatthewDS
08-13-2010, 05:34 PM
Several comments, my personal preference would be the North Sea Trawler style yacht. Partly because I think they are beautiful, and partly because I like the option of that open deck space for storing tenders/4 wheelers/cargo. My hope is that when I retire, I can get a vessel like this, and use periodic cargo trips to suppliment my retirement income.

Secondly, I spent many years growing up in and later working in Boat Harbors in Alaska. The originally posted 23-25 meters for two people and no crew is popular and common. I would say that any larger, you will need a crew, or at least friends, but that size, for two people, is perfect.

Thirdly, regarding Tad's Ocean 55. I grew up on a Skookum 47 with an almost identical deck configuration. The raised aft deck was perfectly usable, and provided great headroom in the cabins below. I have attached a picture for comparison.

MatthewDS
08-13-2010, 05:48 PM
Actually, in terms of looks, it's hard to beat the brutal functionality of this boat. At 65' it's a little smaller than Richard was looking for, but I would expect that if you added 10' in the middle, it would be just perfect. In fact, I think it's perfect now.

sabahcat
08-13-2010, 06:32 PM
Building material was not mentioned by so far (and is not the topic).
Doesnt matter, breed of boat clearly is
But you are not here for contribution anyway, you are out for a fight, and spreading your drivel.

I tried to contribute, but you had a dummy spit and used words like drivel, junk and butt ugly and made it clear that only one form of vessel shall be discussed, not "all" perfect passagmakers, but only the ones that fit in your very small opinion of what one should be.

And you dare to accuse me of wanting a fight. :rolleyes:

I just want honest and open discussion, not blinkered , ill informed and one sided opinion.

dskira
08-13-2010, 06:41 PM
and made it clear that only one form of vessel shall be discussed, not "all" perfect passagmakers, but only the ones that fit in your very small opinion of what one should be.
I just want honest and open discussion, not blinkered , ill informed and one sided opinion.

You right, Richard propose one version of his vision like you have one too. But it is not your thread, nor your vision we are talking about.
The Richard's version is a monohull capable of great cruise with style and classic styling.
We are working around these parameters.
Why are you so mad about it?
Richard do not want multihull, so what? You want it: well open your own thread and explain your vision.
Be nice and participate with what you know, not with preconception.
Multihull are great, not here, that simple.
Read attentively the thread and I am sure you will agree to calm down and come back with good post.
Daniel

Brian@BNE
08-13-2010, 09:59 PM
I've been looking at used 22-24m boats online, thinking perhaps I can buy one for the same cost as a new 18m build. Ok, most will need some updating......so leave 30-40% of budget for that?

One thing that leaps out of reviewing used boats this length is the layout, and its impact on styling. Most have Owner/guest staterooms aft, engines in middle and captain/crew cabins and lounge forward.

I have no interest in having hired help on board. It was pleasing to note many comments that two skilled people can handle the size.

What might work well is to strip-out the forward 'crew' areas to create one large lower deck salon, that functions as a teenage chill-zone. Fit it with large TV, DVD and games consoles and teenagers are occupied forever, never bored! And adults get to be a bit isolated from the noise! A few pullman berths and some rolled up foam mattresses for the floor and that's it. Teenage heaven. And it would also work as kid+partner+grandkids cabin

The alternative might be Tad's PL series with engine room aft, as this provides a contiguous accommodation area. But I'm coming around to liking the pilothouse being centered above the engine room. With a Grenaa in there (and the height it requires), the pilothouse will get a very nicely elevated position! That will create a few steps down to galley/main salon. Being able to keep the helm position isolated from the bright lights of the galley will work well for the nights on the move.

So all this leads back to 'classic' styling as being an optimum for space utilization. Perhaps the 'tugs' from Knotty and Daniels early posts? Eric Sponberg's Molokai Strait 75 is great in many ways, but I think has one deck too many (its advertised as a 4 deck boat...). Like Will Allison, I don't want a style that looks like it might fall over, even though I'm sure Eric has designed it quite properly in that regard. Leave out the hired help and leave out one deck?

Another conclusion from browsing the online 'for sale' is that there is surprisingly little out there that meets Richard's #1 post SOR, which I have to admit is something I would aspire to own.

BillAU
08-14-2010, 10:10 AM
Which was exactly what we did not want!

I asked for your opinions about these 8 boats styling....................

S T Y L I N G ! ! ! !

Sorry your honour...It was a miss-understanding, cross me hart your honour, I won't do it again :rolleyes: :( :P

goodwilltoall
08-14-2010, 11:28 AM
Apex,

Looking at the boats in original post, the comparison will be made to the Bolger "Illinois" and "Ellemaid" according to just styling.

Upscaling the Illinios to 25m it would look petite with pretty slim lines and beatifully proportioned.

The ellemaid has good lines just to tall.

Original boats are bubblebutts. You can caress them while youre at the marina but they would eat fuel like a pig when taking out. Just like a wife thats becomes a little heavy youre still fond of them, but being a young man they would not be a first choice.

mydauphin
08-14-2010, 01:37 PM
Definetively yes.
Not only I do think so. There are several hundred couples out there cruising the world without crew.
The vessels size is more or less limited by the workload on maintenance a couple can stand, and second, port handling. I therefore would say something around 30 meter is the max. size for two skilled people. (many Lowland and Moonen boats between 24 and 30 meter are operated by the owners couple only, as are most of the Hatteras´ses from 70 to 80ft)

Having 72' boat, handling for 2 people is possible if you are very organized and practiced. The biggest problem is finding suitable marinas at reasonable prices. If I had to do it again I would have stayed in the 50 foot range for that reason. The number of marinas goes up five-fold.

apex1
08-14-2010, 04:06 PM
Apex,

Looking at the boats in original post, the comparison will be made to the Bolger "Illinois" and "Ellemaid" according to just styling.

Nice goodwill.........but we are neither talking Bolger nor Buehler designs here. Do you understand that?

Original boats are bubblebutts. You can caress them while youre at the marina but they would eat fuel like a pig when taking out.

That is nonsense Mate. Some of the shown designs are extremely economical to operate. Especially when one puts the mentioned Grenaa Diesel and the (included) CPP in!
And again, thats not the topic.

Is it so hard to grasp that I asked for the preferred styling of a boat around 24 meter? A motoryacht, capable of circumnavigating........................
...no sailing cats, no earthmovers, no electric scooters are the topic here.


Having 72' boat, handling for 2 people is possible if you are very organized and practiced. The biggest problem is finding suitable marinas at reasonable prices. If I had to do it again I would have stayed in the 50 foot range for that reason. The number of marinas goes up five-fold.

I handled boats up to 42 meter with one deckhand (single prop, no thruster), but there was a third person on board..... ??why?...
The old ship had a engine telegraph! No direct control, no gear, no throttle at the wheel. You can imagine what that means.............


Marina fees are a zero issue on a true passagemaker! You very rarely dock at a marina. (and very rarely find one)
On my 9 year voyage we docked for less than 50 nights in a marina.

Regards
Richard

Landlubber
08-14-2010, 08:10 PM
....it also means Apex that you only get 8 starts, and with no gearbox, we have to be careful in manouveres......my ol' 160 footer was the same.

apex1
08-14-2010, 08:21 PM
....it also means Apex that you only get 8 starts, and with no gearbox, we have to be careful in manouveres......my ol' 160 footer was the same.

About that, yes.

Once you have managed these old monsters with the common 20 seconds delay on response, you know how to maneuvre or you will never learn.
And 8 starts are a good average... we had a tug with only 4 before air was empty. Nobody ever understood why just a tug had such a idiotic restriction, but, you know: hit shappens........

But we are slightly off topic again........................:D

Eralnd44
08-14-2010, 08:27 PM
Another set of positions that are not connected to the topic. Please can you gentlemen stay within the issues as presented? It is bothersome to me that you have this way about what you do.

apex1
08-14-2010, 08:45 PM
Another set of positions that are not connected to the topic. Please can you gentlemen stay within the issues as presented? It is bothersome to me that you have this way about what you do.

Right, thank you!

May I repeat for the hundredth time?

What is your opinion about the styling of a passagemaking motoryacht of about 24 meter length overall.
The poll provides 8 different choices by now. The second proposal that I would accept as such is still not there!

Regards
Richard

dskira
08-14-2010, 09:47 PM
As for a yacht manned by two persons, I like the pilot house just slightly raised.
And I really enjoy the English style.
Her a Samuel White built, Parker designed.
Some sort of continuation of C. Nicholson 70' motor yacht of pre WW2
Simple and elegant In my eyes, almost perfect in her restrain and beautifuly designed superstructures.

Daniel


http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boatImages/2010/1/8188984.jpg

marshmat
08-14-2010, 09:50 PM
Daniel, I think you're on to something there. I like the overall proportions of that one and the general style. I'd prefer a continuous sheer- IMHO a break in the sheer should be at or forward of the wheelhouse, not behind it. The add-ons above the aft deck look perhaps just a bit too cluttered. But overall, it's nicely proportioned and the looks fit the part- sleek but strong, not built too high, balanced fore/aft.

apex1
08-14-2010, 09:56 PM
Those are weak points of the structure and are too vulnerable in case of a severe storm with breaking waves. It is a possibility one has to consider and account for at design and styling stage, imho. Richard surely already knows these things, so to him this is probably a superfluous consideration. Still, I wanted to say this after seeing some of the pics - you guys please feel free to dissent. :)

Sure windows are a main concern (not for the Nordhavn manufacturers) and we have to consider the hughe weight in making them as stable and rugged as the main superstructure. But that is one of the reasons I did not ask for the "dock queens" (well, with one excemption), when I started this poll.

A well designed 19mm three layer glass in a perfect embedding is as rugged as a 8mm steel structure. (perfect embedding is the secret, of course).

But then we are again off topic............

Which one looks nicest?

Thats all I want to know..........

All my best
Richard

Thanks Daniel,

that I would consider to be the second proposal?

And White did a far better job than Fairmile (fishboatbuilders).

As I was starting this thread I did not think so many of our members would appreciate the old style.
I am proud to see that your rough sketch (competing with more sophisticated drawings or pictures) has by so far at least not lost the competition, the third place in a environment of other, really skilled pro´s is a good place.

So,
we have a second proposal
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boatImages/2010/1/8188984.jpg

Landlubber
08-15-2010, 03:56 AM
....."Why do you go as such?".....

someone has posted this to me personally.......it is regarding this section, but please let me know what it is that you are trying to say...I have NO IDEA.

...why cannot you say who you are, it is vey hard to try to stay on track with some people....

FAST FRED
08-15-2010, 09:26 AM
All of the vessels presented are nice , but they will differ markedly in their abilities.

How much sea worthnes do you desire?

St Thomas in the winter or Cape Horn?

FF

apex1
08-15-2010, 10:09 AM
All of the vessels presented are nice , but they will differ markedly in their abilities.

How much sea worthnes do you desire?

St Thomas in the winter or Cape Horn?

FF

The North Sea Fred. As rough as the Hoorn sometimes.

But as I mentioned in the opening post, let us assume they perform similar, just to focus on styling only.

Regards
Richard

And thanks Jeff for cleaning and reorganizing the thread! It is better to understand now.

kc135delta
08-15-2010, 03:14 PM
In a passage maker, form (in my opinion) completely follows function and in that regard nothing can surpass the safety, visibility, and functionality of a supply vessel.
http://www.propseas.com/farsearcher.jpg

Who wouldn't feel like a king up on that Bridge (not a pilot house anymore) pacing back and forth between the enclosed bridge wings with visibility all around?

apex1
08-15-2010, 06:30 PM
So you would opt for...............???

Easy Rider
08-16-2010, 01:30 AM
kc,
I would'nt feel like a king up there but I'd I'd sure be worried about the next beam sea. Nobody'd be sittin down and everybody'd be holdin on. The bridge looks like 6 decks above the WL!
AND passagemakers are yachts and form follows function to the tune of this thread on all yachts.

Easy Rider

Willallison
08-16-2010, 02:07 AM
Whilst I admire the elegant yachts of bygone era's as much as the next bloke, I have to say the you guy's are rather too conservative for my tastes.
Is there not a contemporary looking craft that any of you likes?

She's a touch too large to be considered here, at 34 metres long, but VvS1 rather takes my fancy. Proof that a serious passagemaker doesn't have to resemble either a tug or a paddle-steamer...
http://www.yachtvvs1.com/index.html

Landlubber
08-16-2010, 03:40 AM
....diamonds are a girls best friend.....

apex1
08-16-2010, 07:18 AM
Whilst I admire the elegant yachts of bygone era's as much as the next bloke, I have to say the you guy's are rather too conservative for my tastes.
Is there not a contemporary looking craft that any of you likes?

She's a touch too large to be considered here, at 34 metres long, but VvS1 rather takes my fancy. Proof that a serious passagemaker doesn't have to resemble either a tug or a paddle-steamer...
http://www.yachtvvs1.com/index.html

Good question Will.

The romanticizing transfiguration of "going to sea", seems to sit deep in most of the prospective buyers of a vessel with the given capabilities.
Though going to sea was never romantic when we are talking business....

Personally I did like Norman Fosters approach with "Izanami" or Martin Francis "Eco" (both far above the size we are talking here, of course), but when I would have to choose my personal favourite, it would be found amongst the first few of my list.

Regards
Richard

Brian@BNE
08-16-2010, 07:41 AM
Good question Will
.....
Regards
Richard

I can find contemporary styling I like in the size range, I don't think that's the issue.

Typically it will be GRP (and that's OK too), large fuel capacity but gi-normous engines that preclude 'passagemaking'. And wide beam planing hull-forms that don't lend themselves to modest powering.

No doubt its a market driven thing. We are looking at a small niche of the industry in this thread. Probably a growing niche, as I keep hearing anecdotes of impressively styled and fitted cruisers that never go anywhere because of the cost of feeding the beasts in the engine room in these challenging economic times.

RHP
08-16-2010, 09:23 AM
Whilst I admire the elegant yachts of bygone era's as much as the next bloke, I have to say the you guy's are rather too conservative for my tastes.
Is there not a contemporary looking craft that any of you likes?

She's a touch too large to be considered here, at 34 metres long, but VvS1 rather takes my fancy. Proof that a serious passagemaker doesn't have to resemble either a tug or a paddle-steamer...
http://www.yachtvvs1.com/index.html

You might interpret the popularity of the more traditional options as rejection of modern superyacht design which is slowly permeating down the size chart. In the past yacht owners blended in with yacht and commercial vessel styling whereas todays owners compete for ever increasing vulgarity. I suspect the more traditional designs received their votes out of a longing for seaman like, modest and functional design over the current over indulgent marina styling compeition vessels we see today. Not that I want to go off topic Richard.......

wardd
08-16-2010, 10:22 AM
Whilst I admire the elegant yachts of bygone era's as much as the next bloke, I have to say the you guy's are rather too conservative for my tastes.
Is there not a contemporary looking craft that any of you likes?

She's a touch too large to be considered here, at 34 metres long, but VvS1 rather takes my fancy. Proof that a serious passagemaker doesn't have to resemble either a tug or a paddle-steamer...
http://www.yachtvvs1.com/index.html

after the Liberty ship, style has gone down ever since

mark775
08-16-2010, 10:41 AM
Liberty ships? They were horrible, (bigger than the directive herein), and pieces of crap, to boot! Please Google to make certain you are not thinking of something else...
Tho I voted North Sea Trawler, there is another genre I'd like to present - I'll try to get a pic today.

Easy Rider
08-16-2010, 11:43 AM
Mark,
The NST reeks of seaworthyness, salty seamen smoking pipes, the north coast w gillions of sea gulls, seals, waves and a rocky coast ...thump thump goes the trawlerman's heart but the NST just isn't BEAUTIFUL. When looking at a NST we see a black 4X4 truck that exudes strength and masculinity ..fine and especially fine here in Alaska but we're looking for BEAUTY ...think Jaguar.

Easy

apex1
08-16-2010, 12:00 PM
You might interpret the popularity of the more traditional options as rejection of modern superyacht design which is slowly permeating down the size chart. In the past yacht owners blended in with yacht and commercial vessel styling whereas todays owners compete for ever increasing vulgarity. I suspect the more traditional designs received their votes out of a longing for seaman like, modest and functional design over the current over indulgent marina styling compeition vessels we see today. Not that I want to go off topic Richard.......

Few posts by so far have been more on spot than this one.............

RHP
08-16-2010, 09:19 PM
What about this one?

Olav Ostensjo Jnr

Built as a rescue ship for the NSSR (Norwegian lifeboat service)
Has been retired for some years. This looks like her berth in Bergen
Will doubtless be in Stavanger in a week or so for the start of the Offshore Northern Seas conference and exhibition.

mark775
08-16-2010, 10:26 PM
RHP, (First, I see that the thread has changed a bit again and a new genre within this genus is not welcome so I'll scratch the pic I was going to post) The lines of that hull are truly gorgeous. The cabin, to me, needs either more wood or less. Personally, I vote for less. But that hull, she's a fine one!

Boston
08-16-2010, 10:37 PM
well I'm guilty of liking the fantail steamer as if that was some kind of big surprise

would definitely be my first choice if I thought it would survive the pacific northwest and I could afford such a size boat as the one in our parameters

Easy Rider
08-17-2010, 01:18 AM
Mark 775 will like this. Here is a trawler probably created by converting an old USFS patrol boat. Many of them were converted to fine trawlers. I felt this was/is a style many of you could relate to having the fine graceful lines typical of the 60s "gentlemens" yacht and the salty look of a very heavy duty boat that has probably tossed aside with effortless grace many a 10' sea. This boat is very similar to the NST but looks quite different and I think is beautiful. I took this picture this morning to post here. She was at anchor and the wind wouldn't send her broadside but I was able to get out on the end of a pier and shoot through a window at max telephoto w the camera braced against the window frame. What luck .. I took 2 shots and both came out.

Easy

Willallison
08-17-2010, 02:38 AM
I would disagree with the suggestion that contemporary and vulgarity are obvious bedfellows... there are however, glaring examples, both old and new, where one could be forgiven for thinking they'd been sleeping together for a very long time!! Richard brought up the name of Lord Norman Foster... his most recent creation tops my list of contemporary examples (of Fuggly, that is...)

Willallison
08-17-2010, 02:40 AM
... there are examples though of simple, good looking (IMHO) contemporary craft. This fits the bill, which although not a motoryacht, is in the size range. Not outrageously cutting edge... certainly not vulgar...?

apex1
08-17-2010, 09:33 AM
I would disagree with the suggestion that contemporary and vulgarity are obvious bedfellows... there are however, glaring examples, both old and new, where one could be forgiven for thinking they'd been sleeping together for a very long time!! Richard brought up the name of Lord Norman Foster... his most recent creation tops my list of contemporary examples

Well, the statement about the bedfellows could have been mine! Most "contemporary" styled boats are not only vulgar, they are obscene, plebby.....
And Sir Norman Foster should have left the scene after his first (successful) attempt. I call that boat really "plebby" to the last extend.

The motorsailor you posted looks much more like a capable cruiser and combines well tradition, function and style.

RHP, (First, I see that the thread has changed a bit again and a new genre within this genus is not welcome so I'll scratch the pic I was going to post)

That is a pity, I would have been very interested to see your proposal. Please bring it up.

And it is wrong that something changed here! We just got rid of the idiotic sailing catamaran disturbance.


I felt this was/is a style many of you could relate to having the fine graceful lines typical of the 60s "gentlemens" yacht and the salty look of a very heavy duty boat that has probably tossed aside with effortless grace many a 10' sea. This boat is very similar to the NST but looks quite different and I think is beautiful. I took this picture this morning to post here. Easy

Thanks for sharing that (and your effort), a really nice looking vessel (except for the in the US ever so popular "fire fighting monitor".

What about this one?
Olav Ostensjo Jnr
Built as a rescue ship for the NSSR (Norwegian lifeboat service)
Has been retired for some years. This looks like her berth in Bergen

Nice example Richard!

Here we see some sort of transition between the NST and the forward positioned pilothouse which is common in the US.
The latter provides much more useable accommodation on main deck level, but one pays with a much less comfortable steering position.

Thank you all!

Richard

RHP
08-17-2010, 09:35 AM
Easy, she's a beaut to look at but I sense she's dark below. Somehow or other you'd need to rework the accomodation to open it up a bit and make it more welcoming/light/relaxing. As it stands, I can imagine a few poker games going on with the air blue with smoke and a couple of empty bottles of Jack on the table!

Will, whatever rings your bell with the first one, I once used the expression "B.U." which caught the attention of a few people.

The most sailor is ok but looks heavy however a lot of yacht for 2 people to sail and maintain.

apex1
08-17-2010, 10:17 AM
Will, whatever rings your bell with the first one, I once used the expression "B.U." which caught the attention of a few people..

Have not got that, sorry.........

Yes, lot of boat to maintain, but when build in the Epoxy era (and done right), not too much. At least not as much as GRP for example.
But thats again off topic.

Regards
Richard

Willallison
08-17-2010, 10:29 AM
Have not got that, sorry.........

My fault..please see my edit... I believe RHP thought I was a fan...

marshmat
08-17-2010, 10:57 AM
Will - my wife thinks the Foster looks more like a designer shoe than a boat.

I have nothing against good contemporary design. There are some really beautiful, modern boats out there. But, like many boaters, I judge beauty based at least partly on function- and a superstructure that looks like the Starship Voyager's shuttlecraft just doesn't sit right on a boat that'll see rough seas and long passages.

The design elements that produce a universally gorgeous boat haven't changed much over the years. Clean lines, visual balance fore/aft, appropriate proportions (not too tall for the length), a sense of purpose in the styling.... none of the key points have changed. When we get "modern" craft that turn out to be fugly, it's usually because some key principle has been neglected- often the superstructure is built out too far towards the ends (looks out of balance), or too high; sometimes what the designer thinks are "swoopy" lines end up just breaking the profile up in weird ways. Most frequently, the styling doesn't suit the boat- look at any megayacht that's styled like a racing powerboat but only cruises at 11 knots.

The styling of a passagemaker should convey the impression of strength, seaworthiness and efficient practicality. It's not necessary to go back in time to find that, but there are some great, beautiful boats from the mid-20th century that do it well. The modern trend of cramming too much interior volume into a given length leads to a tall, wide, unbalanced appearance not consistent with the rugged, go-anywhere image this type of boat should convey.

Easy Rider
08-17-2010, 11:53 AM
marshmat,

"modern trend of cramming too much interior volume into a given length leads to a tall, wide, unbalanced appearance"

You mean "postwar" RIGHT?

Or are you just refering to sundeck botels?

Easy

Milan
08-17-2010, 12:13 PM
Will - my wife thinks the Foster looks more like a designer shoe than a boat….

I think it looks as an iron. :)

Taste is highly subjective and individual issue, that’s the reason why I usually avoid discussing aesthetics when talking boats, prefer to talk about functionality, seaworthiness… that sort of things.

But this thread is about style so I had to say it…

Back to the topic, my favourite type would be North Sea trawler. I like aft steering and open deck in front of it. Second place, gentlemans yacht of the sixties.

Don’t like three decks in this size, much to high for the length.

A bit of the topic, William Garden designed some nice motor sailors, (in my opinion), in this price category.

apex1
08-17-2010, 12:57 PM
I have nothing against good contemporary design. There are some really beautiful, modern boats out there.

The Oceanco built "Achiever", design Gerhard Gilgenast, was one of the rare examples of a perfect solution when one has to put plenty of accommodation above deck level. (have seen her again a few days ago, after 8 years, now named Anedigmi)
She was very clever designed with a mizzen deck.
Here she is seen when she was "Princesa Valentina", the period when her perfectly styled interior (Donald Starkey) was completely screwed up.


Regards
Richard

larry larisky
08-17-2010, 03:38 PM
i like the fishing boat style.
they are so strong and powerful.
the free board is quite unusual but make sense
since we talk only style i just comment on that.
can be a inspiration for something more civilized.

http://www.macduffshipdesign.com/images/i%20Fishing%20Vessels/d%20Seiner%20Trawlers/26m%20Glenugie/26mglenugie%20tech.jpg

Willallison
08-17-2010, 08:06 PM
Will - my wife thinks the Foster looks more like a designer shoe than a boat.

I have nothing against good contemporary design. There are some really beautiful, modern boats out there. But, like many boaters, I judge beauty based at least partly on function- and a superstructure that looks like the Starship Voyager's shuttlecraft just doesn't sit right on a boat that'll see rough seas and long passages.

The design elements that produce a universally gorgeous boat haven't changed much over the years. Clean lines, visual balance fore/aft, appropriate proportions (not too tall for the length), a sense of purpose in the styling.... none of the key points have changed. When we get "modern" craft that turn out to be fugly, it's usually because some key principle has been neglected- often the superstructure is built out too far towards the ends (looks out of balance), or too high; sometimes what the designer thinks are "swoopy" lines end up just breaking the profile up in weird ways. Most frequently, the styling doesn't suit the boat- look at any megayacht that's styled like a racing powerboat but only cruises at 11 knots.

The styling of a passagemaker should convey the impression of strength, seaworthiness and efficient practicality. It's not necessary to go back in time to find that, but there are some great, beautiful boats from the mid-20th century that do it well. The modern trend of cramming too much interior volume into a given length leads to a tall, wide, unbalanced appearance not consistent with the rugged, go-anywhere image this type of boat should convey.

Couldn't agree more... it is truly a shocking example of design, IMHO.

I'm often astounded at just how awful boats can be - in all manner of aspects. I agree with RHP in that as boats get bigger, the propensity for vulgarity seems to escalate accordingly. Perhaps taste is inversely proportional to wealth....? (Hence my own impeccable taste!;) ).
But in craft of all sizes, the amount of effort required to build a good looking boat - or at least a well proportioned boat, for style is the most subjective of things - is no more or less than to build an ugly one. How is it that some manage to get it so terribly wrong? As a design is conceptualised, it would be very rare for only one set of eyes to asses its beauty.... that means that nobody involved in the process had the good taste (or courage) to stop and say... "Eww... that's a shocker... start again..."
Bizarre....

kc135delta
08-17-2010, 08:47 PM
kc,
I would'nt feel like a king up there but I'd I'd sure be worried about the next beam sea. Nobody'd be sittin down and everybody'd be holdin on. The bridge looks like 6 decks above the WL!
AND passagemakers are yachts and form follows function to the tune of this thread on all yachts.

Easy Rider

That vessel is 70 or 80m, a much smaller vessel would obviously have less decks. The Forward house/bridge wings with a full beam (or exceeding with bridge wings) to protect the aft open decks and provide a commanding 360 degree view. A steel hull and alu super would be optimal for weight/CoG.

apex1
08-17-2010, 08:50 PM
That vessel is 70 or 80m, a much smaller vessel would obviously have less decks. The Forward house/bridge wings with a full beam (or exceeding with bridge wings) to protect the aft open decks and provide a commanding 360 degree view. A steel hull and alu super would be optimal for weight/CoG.

...............and then we would have exactly our #4, the supply vessel style....

WestVanHan
08-17-2010, 09:14 PM
The Oceanco built "Achiever", design Gerhard Gilgenast, was one of the rare examples of a perfect solution when one has to put plenty of accommodation above deck level. (have seen her again a few days ago, after 8 years, now named Anedigmi)
She was very clever designed with a mizzen deck.
Here she is seen when she was "Princesa Valentina", the period when her perfectly styled interior (Donald Starkey) was completely screwed up.


Regards
Richard


Now THAT is what gets my interest.

Thank you for the pic, is now wallpaper on one of my monitors....

Willallison
08-18-2010, 01:11 AM
I can find contemporary styling I like in the size range, I don't think that's the issue.

Typically it will be GRP (and that's OK too), large fuel capacity but gi-normous engines that preclude 'passagemaking'. And wide beam planing hull-forms that don't lend themselves to modest powering.

No doubt its a market driven thing. We are looking at a small niche of the industry in this thread. Probably a growing niche, as I keep hearing anecdotes of impressively styled and fitted cruisers that never go anywhere because of the cost of feeding the beasts in the engine room in these challenging economic times.

I was thinking about this, and Brian's 1st sentence in particular, and I can't think of many - if any - truly contemporary passagemakers. As suggested there are a myriad of pretenders. My parents own one... an Offshore 64, which whilst a capable coastal cruiser isn't really a true offshore passagemaker in my view. A sistership recently crossed from New Zealand to Oz, so there's no doubt that they are capable of crossing oceans, but they aren't really designed for it. There are others, similar, but as Brian correctly points out, their thundering great powerplants are the 1st giveaway that they are not really intended to appeal to offshore cruisers - theirs is a much wider marketplace.
But interms of styling, they are not at all what I'd call modern - traditional is how I'd describe them. Azimut's Magellano is closer to the mark, but again, she's more coastal cruiser than offshore passagemaker.
I don't know.... are there any truly modern examples...? Perhaps you guy's are right... maybe those who venture offshore don't want to join the 21st century in terms of styling....;)

WestVanHan
08-18-2010, 01:44 AM
Patrick Bray's 86' Cape Scott,verrry nice on board.
Used to be red,looked terrible.

RHP
08-18-2010, 10:41 AM
Patrick Bray's 86' Cape Scott,verrry nice on board.
Used to be red,looked terrible.

Well if we're going to go down that route, what about this one? Lovely hull I'm sure you'll all agree........ :D

Apex, its a variation on Option 1, the North Sea Trawler.......... :P

apex1
08-18-2010, 10:49 AM
Patrick Bray's 86' Cape Scott,verrry nice on board.
Used to be red,looked terrible.

Well that would fit into the specs.

Here another picture of "Achiever" (as Princesa Valentina) in Monte Carlo.


Well if we're going to go down that route, what about this one? Lovely hull I'm sure you'll all agree........ :D
Apex, its a variation on Option 1, the North Sea Trawler.......... :P

Except for the style of the fenders..................

RHP
08-18-2010, 11:17 AM
Except for the style of the fenders..................

Norman Foster again....... ? :(

Willallison
08-18-2010, 07:34 PM
Here another picture of "Achiever" (as Princesa Valentina) in Monte Carlo.
.

More convincing to me from that angle... love the 'crows nest'!

apex1
08-19-2010, 09:49 AM
More convincing to me from that angle... love the 'crows nest'!

Concur,

the crows nest replaces the fly, and this arrangement allows the skipper to see the stern, a flybridge station on such a boat usually does not!
Gilgenast was one of the best and he did me a perfect vessel.

MikeJohns
08-19-2010, 10:10 AM
Here's a rent launch from Derecktors USA. Still something being built there.

http://www.marinelink.com/news/cakewalk-largest-yacht335180.aspx


Although it looks a bit like a Pagoda to me.

Easy Rider
08-19-2010, 12:29 PM
The Achiever is a beautiful boat and a tasteful modern design.
I like a boat w classy details.
Did you notice the nicely sculptured shape of the running light pockets?
We had a boat visiting in Craig that had a nice SS lining around the anchor pocket. Not really beautiful but a nice touch.

Easy

apex1
08-19-2010, 12:48 PM
The Achiever is a beautiful boat and a tasteful modern design.
I like a boat w classy details.
Did you notice the nicely sculptured shape of the running light pockets?Easy

No easy, that perspective gives a little bit a wrong impression.

Those pockets are much larger than they appear, and they are the air intakes for the engines.

More actual pictures of her (now Anedigmi)
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/de/showallphotos.aspx?mmsi=235066107#top_photo

Regards
Richard

Easy Rider
08-20-2010, 11:05 AM
apex1,
She's not so beautiful when her stern is visible.
Air intakes way up there?? Must be a lot of wasted space ducting them down.
I still like the running light treatment and I like the fact that the boat is reasonably low.

Easy

apex1
08-20-2010, 02:12 PM
apex1,
She's not so beautiful when her stern is visible.
Air intakes way up there?? Must be a lot of wasted space ducting them down.
I still like the running light treatment and I like the fact that the boat is reasonably low.

Easy

Yepp, the stern is not exactly what Gilgenast had in mind, and the result "as built" not perfect.
Yes the intakes are usually that high, or even higher, to avoid the suction of spray and to provide holding the "downflooding angle" in reaonable regions (or to class).
The ducts on these boats are always hughe of course. Here we have some 4500 horses installed (incl. gennies), they suck some m³ of air....

Tad
08-21-2010, 02:16 PM
Well.....at this point the "Gentleman's Yacht of the 60's" is ahead by a mile.....I'm somewhat surprised at the conservatism within the voting group....but it's a group I can relate to.

Just to stir things up again I'll post a couple of different things.......

The recently launched Vitruvius built by Picchiotti......I know it's outside the specified length but just focus on the styling....taking obvious cues from the Francis/Oino Ecco....but different and sleek rather than towering...

46640

And something a bit different from Jack Hargrave, the 92' Nordic Star built by Lantana in 1969

46639

And another variation on the Passagemaker Lite theme....a 74'

46641

apex1
08-21-2010, 03:38 PM
Nice additions TAD, at least the first and the last.

Hargrave had better designs than the one shown! (I think all have been better)

Your PML develops further in a more eye pleasing way, is my humble opinoin.

Regards
Richard

Willallison
08-21-2010, 06:11 PM
I like the Pichiottti. Though I feel it lacks harmony with the écho' wheelhouse.
Your most recent PML is not terribly dissimilar to the one of mine that I posted way back on p.2 of this thread, pictured again below.
There's one theme in common throughout ... all of those recognised as elegant are relatively low for their length. Hardly surprising, until you consider the majority of offerings on the market today - especially those in the size range that the thread was originally covering...

apex1
08-21-2010, 07:23 PM
The thread is still covering the same size range Will!
But of course when we are talking style, some show examples of different sizes when they have nothing else to provide a picture.

Tad
08-21-2010, 07:53 PM
Thank you Richard for your kind comments....

Will I'm intrigued at your view of the similarities between your 62' Kapala and my 74' PML? My thought was that your boat would perhaps owe something (arrangement wise) to the big Garden express types like the 62' Kristina below......

46652

46653

Willallison
08-22-2010, 05:08 AM
I'm rather a fan of some of Garden's larger express cruisers - in philosophy if not entirely in style. And there is indeed a similarity in the layout of Kristina & Kapala - with the accomodations all on one deck and only a smallish pilothouse that is raised somewhat.
That's about where the similarity ends however, as Kapala is a box keeled, full displacement motoryacht.
In terms of your 74, I agree, the execution is somewhat different, but at at a glance, I was reminded of Kapala - probably due to the two vessels sharing a low air draft. And in philosophy, I think they are born from similar ideals

apex1
08-22-2010, 07:06 PM
Another classic example, and able circumnavigator, though only 20 meter long.

The Malahide Trawler.

Iroko on Iroko, built 1975, powered by a 8cyl Kelvin, 3000 miles range.

A friend has restored her completely and carefully in 2006/7.

She is on the market at a reasonable price.

I shot these pictures a few days ago when I was with my friends for some nice days. Of course these show a bit more of the "every day" condition, not the showroom situation.



http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke2__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke2_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/BB__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/BB_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke2__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke2_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke3__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke3_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke4__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke4_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke5__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke5_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Brueckenumgang__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Brueckenumgang_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Cpt_Bad__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Cpt_Bad_.JPG)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bad_achtern__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bad_achtern_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Dining__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Dining_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Heck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Heck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kabine_achtern__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kabine_achtern_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kabine_achtern_BB__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kabine_achtern_BB_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kueche__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kueche_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Namensschild__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Namensschild_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Achterschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Achterschiff_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Bruecke__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Bruecke_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Vorschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Vorschiff_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Salon_BB___t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Salon_BB__.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Salon_stb__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Salon_stb_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Sonnendeck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Sonnendeck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Vordeck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Vordeck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Vorschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Vorschiff_.jpg)

Actual price: 670k US $, complete inventory, as is, where is, ready to circumnavigate. Contact per mail please.

Brian@BNE
08-22-2010, 08:28 PM
Richard
Its a beautiful restoration, your friends should be congratulated.

My 2c on styling is that it has a bit too much on the top deck. I'm sure weight is OK, and that its very practical. But in terms of style, what Will termed 'crows nest' a few posts ago would perhaps give better visual balance?

Great threads you start!
Brian

dskira
08-22-2010, 08:36 PM
What a beautiful ship.
All iroko, and I bet sawn frames 6"x6" closes spaced at 16" center, planking perhaps 2" like the deck, and I bet for a keel of 8" molding perhaps 12" siding.
I don't know, I just guess, but they had the habit to built real ship.
I just drool :)
Thank you for the pictures, and I hope she will find a good owner.

Daniel

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/46685d1282514734-perfect-passagemaker-style-within-genre-1952105_1.jpg

dskira
08-22-2010, 08:43 PM
Richard
Its a beautiful restoration, your friends should be congratulated.

My 2c on styling is that it has a bit too much on the top deck. I'm sure weight is OK, and that its very practical. But in terms of style, what Will termed 'crows nest' a few posts ago would perhaps give better visual balance?

Great threads you start!
Brian

Do you see yourself in the pilothouse, or on the wing of the bridge?
You have to say yes :)
Just kidding. Don't pay attention, i am just in love with the unfortunately defunct Malahide. They used to built real wood ship. So strong that they loose their shirt due to the price of building with such a quality and strength.

Daniel

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/46694d1282514901-perfect-passagemaker-style-within-genre-1952105_14.jpg

apex1
08-22-2010, 08:53 PM
What a beautiful ship.
All iroko, and I bet sawn frames 6"x6" closes spaced at 16" center, planking perhaps 2" like the deck, and I bet for a keel of 8" molding perhaps 12" siding.
I don't know, I just guess, but they had the habit to built real ship.
I just drool :)
Thank you for the pictures, and I hope she will find a good owner.

Daniel

Frames and deck you guessed right, planking is 3" (3m² renewed in 2006), keel I don´t know.

Brian

yes, at that length the wheelhouse (no, bridge), and Captains cabin (with bathroom) on top looks a bit much, but she is a very stable boat.

Richard

Brian@BNE
08-22-2010, 08:56 PM
Daniel
I'd love to see myself anywhere on that boat. If I was the owner I'd say 'maybe not 100% perfect but I love her anyway'. Bit like many things in life!

apex1
08-23-2010, 07:00 PM
Daniel
I'd love to see myself anywhere on that boat. If I was the owner I'd say 'maybe not 100% perfect but I love her anyway'. Bit like many things in life!

Yeah, such way goes life.

Nothing is perfect, and I doubt I will see a perfect Yacht.
I am not able to do the perfect Yacht for my own requirements, how would I expect to find her elsewhere. (and I doubt anyone of our Peers here is able to design the perfect boat for himself)
After some while on the water we always find flaws and compromised areas, and I always promise myself:

"these 42 faults I will do never again! Next time I will try 42 different"

Regards
Richard

dskira
08-23-2010, 07:45 PM
I like the simplicity of Noneta built by S. White in 1935.
Smaller than Richard ask.
but at 63' and 58 Tons, a draft of 7' she still a good little ship

http://www.adls.org.uk/t1/sites/default/files/images/Noneta_168_1.jpg

dskira
08-23-2010, 09:07 PM
Here we go full speed on dream:
My boat will be Rosenkavalier, blown up with dynamite and rebuilt as she was at the start inside and out as Haida for My Fleischmann in 1929, designed by Cox and Stevens and built by Krupp's including the engines. (still today originals)
The hull was black, she was and she is a master piece in my eye.
I went on her in the 70, it was the most emotional moment I ever had. just the protected wing station bring you emotions.
I went on several Fife like Halloween and other grand yacht, but Rosenkavalier is a class apart, and even now with her superstructures quite changed, she remain a queen.
But that is my two cents when dreaming.
Of course it is off topic, sorry Richard, but not that much. It will be possible to scale down this kind of vessel like Dixon Kemp succeeded brilliantly with his small steam yacht. Amazon come to my mind.
The modern version of RC can bee not as narrow, but deep, large engine room with casing on all the deck, The Greena can be seen through the skylight on the upper deck. A swan from the waterline up, a real deep ship underwater.
No need for much space due to the minimum crew on board. Couple and guest, no more that 6 in total. So the yacht can be not that large as the original. I suggest to paint the Greena off white and red, like the Krupp engine

Daniel

apex1
08-23-2010, 09:57 PM
Cream and red Daniel.........

dskira
08-23-2010, 10:06 PM
Cream and red Daniel.........

Absolulty, you right, not off white, cream and red. A beauty.

Daniel

Landlubber
08-24-2010, 03:13 AM
http://www.yachting-greece.com/Motor_Yachts_Greece/MegaYachts/HAIDA_G/HAIDA_G_ex_ROSENKAVALIER_Mega_Yacht_Charter_Greece.html


...OMG.....i guess it is only a money problem, sheer elegence...need a deckie Daniel

tunnels
08-24-2010, 04:03 AM
Looks like they all came out of 1920s and 1930s popular mechanics magazines !! or this it the new style of thinking ? to recycle a bunch of old looking designs, Goes along with the ageing world population and lack of imagination i guess .:P

apex1
08-24-2010, 07:25 AM
Looks like they all came out of 1920s and 1930s popular mechanics magazines !! or this it the new style of thinking ? to recycle a bunch of old looking designs, Goes along with the ageing world population and lack of imagination i guess .:P

It was not to expect that you share the connoisseurs opinions on style.

There is not one single design shown, one coud in all seriousness call "recycled", but some reflect the grace of older designs, no doubt.

When I enter port on a old Benetti of the early 70ies, or the Malahide trawler shown above, other yachtowners pass by on their digestive walk. Many stop and study the boat, admire the grace and quality of workmanship. No matter how old they are.
When I am on a contemporary design of similar size, I never have had to answer one question, or noticed one stopping to have a look.

But you will most likely call van Gogh´s paintings colour blots.

Ignorance is bliss....



....you must be our happiest member.

FAST FRED
08-24-2010, 08:27 AM
"Looks like they all came out of 1920s and 1930s popular mechanics magazines !! or this it the new style of thinking ? to recycle a bunch of old looking designs"

Since the intervening 75 years has made huge gains in diesel engines , longer lived , far more fuel efficient and way lighter , UNFORTUNIATLY fuel prices (in constant dollars) has soared.

The use of an "older" easily driven design with modern materials would make a load of sense.Particularly for a cruiser where dock fees would not be common , but a fuel bill a part of life.

The "newer designs" are fine if you pay dock bills and a football profile gives most internal volume per dock dollar.
Half as wide as long , also helps the volume picture , as long as the boat stays dockside.

"Modern"? UGH!!!

FF

dskira
08-24-2010, 01:00 PM
Looks like they all came out of 1920s and 1930s popular mechanics magazines !! or this it the new style of thinking ? to recycle a bunch of old looking designs, Goes along with the ageing world population and lack of imagination i guess .:P

You have an opinion on what you like, why you don't contribute and explain how in your view the perfect vessel will be, referring to Richard's specs inset of going berserk and insulting people.
Be constructive if you want to be taken seriously.
Your rambling is childish, grown up, and come aboard like a man.
Go on and explain your thought and the why since you opened the door.
By the way I am 65 yo :P

Daniel

apex1
08-24-2010, 02:32 PM
Here some more pictures of the Malahide trawler for those of you interested in such style of vessel.
Must not be bought immediately, dreaming is allowed and keeps us going.
I shot these pictures a few days ago when I was with my friends for some nice days. Of course these show a bit more of the "every day" condition, not the showroom situation.



http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke2__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke2_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/BB__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/BB_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke2__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke2_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke3__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke3_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke4__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke4_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke5__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke5_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Brueckenumgang__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Brueckenumgang_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Cpt_Bad__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Cpt_Bad_.JPG)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bad_achtern__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bad_achtern_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Dining__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Dining_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Heck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Heck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kabine_achtern__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kabine_achtern_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kabine_achtern_BB__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kabine_achtern_BB_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kueche__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kueche_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Namensschild__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Namensschild_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Achterschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Achterschiff_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Bruecke__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Bruecke_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Vorschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Vorschiff_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Salon_BB___t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Salon_BB__.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Salon_stb__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Salon_stb_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Sonnendeck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Sonnendeck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Vordeck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Vordeck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Vorschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Vorschiff_.jpg)

Actual price: 670k US $, complete inventory, as is, where is, ready to circumnavigate. Contact per mail please.

Thanks, Richard

dskira
08-24-2010, 02:46 PM
The telegraph is sumptuous.
This pic download very well.

Daniel

apex1
08-24-2010, 04:20 PM
The telegraph is sumptuous.
This pic download very well.

Daniel

Ja, but I thought I can link to the entire folder.........

tunnels
08-24-2010, 04:23 PM
Well,

I never was in doubt about your qualities...............

thanks for this deeper insight!

When all else fails go back to the begining and think simple !! simple is best , You have a bunch of older boats on that original post they were probably built simple including all the mechanics in each boat .
In every place i have been asked to go and sort what is wrong with the place and why are they having failures all the time , after going back to grass roots and the simple basics sorts the problem and before you know it there are smiles on the faces of the workers in a few days and they realize they were caught up in all the silly complications and stupidity that had been introduced into there lives , simple works every time !, live simple and live long ! .
Smile and be happy and live even longer ! :P

apex1
08-24-2010, 04:42 PM
You have a bunch of older boats on that original post

Ja tunnels,



not one! Not a single one is a old boat.

That much to your knowledge of our business..........

dskira
08-24-2010, 05:16 PM
Beautiful pictures, thanks Richard.

Daniel

dskira
08-24-2010, 08:52 PM
I really like this one very much. I have a thing for protected side deck.
She is a real ship. Look at this sweeping curve, a delight.

Daniel

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk25/dskira/BB_.jpg

Landlubber
08-25-2010, 02:50 AM
....now my heart aches for such nice work, no way you can compete with quality.......

dskira
08-25-2010, 12:11 PM
The foredeck is interesting. Look at the bobby hatch and escape hatch on the same structure, perhaps made of steel.
I wounder if the propeller is 4' diameter?
As for the clearview always laking in modern boat. Glad to see it on this proper vessel.

Daniel

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk25/dskira/Vordeck_.jpg

Boston
08-25-2010, 04:49 PM
Here some more pictures of the Malahide trawler for those of you interested in such style of vessel.
Must not be bought immediately, dreaming is allowed and keeps us going.
I shot these pictures a few days ago when I was with my friends for some nice days. Of course these show a bit more of the "every day" condition, not the showroom situation.



http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke2__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke2_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/BB__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/BB_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke2__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke2_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke3__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke3_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke4__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke4_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke5__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke5_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Brueckenumgang__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Brueckenumgang_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Cpt_Bad__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Cpt_Bad_.JPG)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bad_achtern__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bad_achtern_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Dining__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Dining_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Heck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Heck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kabine_achtern__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kabine_achtern_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kabine_achtern_BB__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kabine_achtern_BB_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kueche__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kueche_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Namensschild__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Namensschild_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Achterschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Achterschiff_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Bruecke__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Bruecke_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Vorschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Vorschiff_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Salon_BB___t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Salon_BB__.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Salon_stb__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Salon_stb_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Sonnendeck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Sonnendeck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Vordeck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Vordeck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Vorschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Vorschiff_.jpg)

Thanks Richard

that looks really nice Tad
we need a full nude of this boat though
go any body shots

apex1
08-25-2010, 06:18 PM
that looks really nice Tad
we need a full nude of this boat though
go any body shots

TAD ???

Have no body shots, the boat is cruising the Med.

But the entire shape you can see on the former page.

Richard

hoytedow
08-25-2010, 06:48 PM
Here some more pictures of the Malahide trawler for those of you interested in such style of vessel.
Must not be bought immediately, dreaming is allowed and keeps us going.
I shot these pictures a few days ago when I was with my friends for some nice days. Of course these show a bit more of the "every day" condition, not the showroom situation.



http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke2__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke2_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/BB__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/BB_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke2__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke2_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke3__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke3_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke4__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke4_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bruecke5__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bruecke5_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Brueckenumgang__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Brueckenumgang_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Cpt_Bad__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Cpt_Bad_.JPG)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Bad_achtern__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Bad_achtern_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Dining__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Dining_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Heck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Heck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kabine_achtern__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kabine_achtern_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kabine_achtern_BB__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kabine_achtern_BB_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Kueche__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Kueche_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Namensschild__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Namensschild_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Achterschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Achterschiff_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Bruecke__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Bruecke_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Niedergang_Vorschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Niedergang_Vorschiff_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Salon_BB___t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Salon_BB__.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Salon_stb__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Salon_stb_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Sonnendeck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Sonnendeck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Vordeck__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Vordeck_.jpg)http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Malahide/thumbnails/Vorschiff__t.gif (http://www.imgbox.de/show/up/apex1/Malahide/Vorschiff_.jpg)

Thanks RichardEin schönes Schiff.

Landlubber
08-26-2010, 12:20 AM
....and a ships bell....who complies with Colregs anymore, half the boats in Brisbane certainly do not....they seem to do whatever they like now, nice to see a proper "little ship".

waynep
08-26-2010, 01:07 AM
Not sure if this has already been posted on this thread. This one is worth looking at : http://dashewoffshore.com/fpb_first.asp. Style, comfort, long range. What a cruiser! Be sure to check out the short movie clip.

mark775
08-26-2010, 01:30 AM
Ships bells had a purpose once...Our Coast Guard chooses my anti-persperant yet no longer suggests I have the bell aboard. With the sound of machinery and prevailing lack of forward look-out, a bell is an anachronism (I always station a lookout in dense fog as it is hard to tell a gull from an errant inflatable - but few do)
Richard, what is the round "plug" in the deck? When I look at that deck, I want to touch it, to feel its warmth and natural oils. I have not been able to have such a deck in 30 years - maybe when I retire or maybe I'll fudge by a few years!
The wood is gorgeous and a testiment to the maintenance the owners were willing to devote. On such a craft we can assume that the most important space is as immaculate as the peripheries... still, we can always learn from what someone does that cares. The engine room (when possible)?
Who made the "US style trawler" with the proboscus? I'd like to explore some of the design features from their website.
Tho I voted for North-Sea trawler for its looks, the Richard-style would be the one I'd choose to go to sea.

FAST FRED
08-26-2010, 06:42 AM
Our Coast Guard chooses my anti-persperant yet no longer suggests I have the bell aboard.

Great too that we don't fire a gun every minuet to listen for reflected sounds from ahead.

FF

apex1
08-26-2010, 07:59 AM
Ships bells had a purpose once...Our Coast Guard chooses my anti-persperant yet no longer suggests I have the bell aboard. With the sound of machinery and prevailing lack of forward look-out, a bell is an anachronism (I always station a lookout in dense fog as it is hard to tell a gull from an errant inflatable - but few do)
[QUOTE]Richard, what is the round "plug" in the deck?
One of four plugs, they are inserted when the tender and the wave runner are launched. (racks removed)

When I look at that deck, I want to touch it, to feel its warmth and natural oils. I have not been able to have such a deck in 30 years - maybe when I retire or maybe I'll fudge by a few years!
The wood is gorgeous and a testiment to the maintenance the owners were willing to devote. On such a craft we can assume that the most important space is as immaculate as the peripheries... still, we can always learn from what someone does that cares. The engine room (when possible)?
It is immaculate of course, but I took no pictures, it was just much tooo hot in these days (over 40°C outside).
Who made the "US style trawler" with the proboscus? I'd like to explore some of the design features from their website.

Thats a Nordhavn, the only boat here with only ONE vote, but selling like hot bread! So much about design fits customers requirements!!!

Tho I voted for North-Sea trawler for its looks, the Richard-style would be the one I'd choose to go to sea.

So you have been the one who brought the Trawler in the #1 position.
If I had to choose my personal craft out of these, I am not sure about the trawler or the gentlemans yacht. Both are nice in their own way.

....and a ships bell....who complies with Colregs anymore, half the boats in Brisbane certainly do not....they seem to do whatever they like now, nice to see a proper "little ship".

Proper, thats it. All the little thingies where they belong, and all the gimmicks left at the merchants shelve.

She is offered at about 670k $ btw.

Not sure if this has already been posted on this thread. This one is worth looking at : . Style, comfort, long range. What a cruiser! Be sure to check out the short movie clip.

That is a very well known vessel here.
But style? I doubt you find many supporters here with that opinion.
And for good reason it was not included here.


Thank you all for contribution!
Richard

Tad
08-26-2010, 01:50 PM
Some writing from me on the subject of style.....

http://www.passagemakerlite.com/articles/elegant-motoryachts/

apex1
08-26-2010, 02:38 PM
Some writing from me on the subject of style.....

http://www.passagemakerlite.com/articles/elegant-motoryachts/

With greetings of ole Jack Hargrave?:p

Thanks TAD

apex1
08-27-2010, 10:51 AM
Just a upgrade on this one:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/46685d1282514734-perfect-passagemaker-style-within-genre-1952105_1.jpg

See the specs in the attached word document.

Price: 670k US Dollar

mark775
08-28-2010, 12:50 PM
Well, I waited for a better picture but it has become elusive. Please excuse the rain-on-glass photos - the boat is always working and away from port! Now, before you condemn me for not having as much of an eye towards tradition OR modern design, allow me to point out that boats like this having been plying severe waters for decades and, in capable hands, can likely survive most that the sea throws at it. The looks may not be to everyone's taste but, to me, there is a beauty in confidence in returning home and I know this boat can do it. I have always dreamed of a "working" retirement so deck space is a must for me. Boats like this are designed to survive being pooped, can obviously cut through some savage headseas tho, honestly, I don't know how this particular one handles in big seas from behind. It is 78' (24m) long and was built in 1978. The build was in Hoquiam or Aberdeen, WA, USA, by Carl Berg. She presently tenders salmon in the summer and fishes dungies all winter long off the coast of Washington state.

46880

46881

If one squints, and looks at the lines - not the wild paint job, he will see fine lines, an "I don't care what the weather is doing" persona, and start sketching for ways to incoporate a little more cabin on a napkin. Tho boats like this were built for three or four crew, things are tight and a two person passagemaker wud want to extend that cabin enuf to have a master suite and saloon - still leaving a large back deck. The captain told me some history and that she sips fuel at six knots.
I have seen larger vessels like this converted to yachts and they look good. My all-time favorite the 108'/128' Marco has been successfully converted to yachts but I don't have a picture of these either (plus they are larger than the criteria). If money weren't an object, of course there would be some different design but a well maintained converted fishing boat can sure be an eye-catcher!

apex1
08-28-2010, 03:56 PM
The looks may not be to everyone's taste but, to me, there is a beauty in confidence in returning home and I know this boat can do it.

I concur on your thoughts about beauty. In the end it´s in the eye of the beerholder of course.
And you know i am almost addicted to workboat style.

But here I see some points I do not tolerate on my boat.

The wheel position is far to close to the stem. Thats a real uncomfortable ride there.
Accommodation will be possible in the bow section only. The average (retired) couple I mentioned, will not stomach that in severe weather.
Too much flare. (must be here, due to the wheel position)

But, each his own, of course.

Regards
Richard

Tad
08-28-2010, 04:40 PM
Another example of the commercial style adapted for pleasure use.....this is Hamal from New Zealand

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp165/Alanh22/P1110289.jpg

mydauphin
08-28-2010, 05:03 PM
You can sell enough of the old fishing stuff to build an extension to the living area in the deck. You probably have a large hold below deck that can also be converted to some useful purpose such as sleeping.

daiquiri
08-30-2010, 08:59 PM
Richard,
I've just got back from Croatia and took few pics of this beauty in the port of Rovinj. Don't know the model, but it looks like an old Baglietto yacht to me.
I'm showing these pics here because she seems to be in line with some of previously shown yachts in this thread.
Cheers!

mark775
08-30-2010, 09:10 PM
Absolutely right about the retired couple prefering the more gentle motions further aft - I forgot the criteria. Too much flare - you mean cosmetically, you don't like the look?
Tad, the NZ boat you posted looks similar but the portuguese bridge is not there - On a passagemaker, I'd think one wud want to be able to go into a headsea and I'm not sure I'd be comfortable without something to deflect water other than the glass. One dip of that bow and one will find the limit of the wheelhouse windows!
Now that I remember that the boat wud be for a retired couple, "North Sea Trawler", which I previously voted for, wud be the best way on this size vessel, IMO.
I suppose these type of vessels fall under "US Style Trawler" but when I think of those, I think of Taiwan built things and boats that aren't as capable as I'd like.
This boat was built by a friend of mine, Bud LeMieux, at Delta Marine. Not coincidentally, Bud also founded Northern Marine and built the Spirit of Zopilote when the original was piled onto a rock.

46991

This type of boat looks nice but part of their attraction is the nice surfaces attainable in GRP. This same feature renders them not as good a passagemeker, IMO, and it has been argued that more attention was applied to cosmetics than strength. I won't say...but a commercial fisherman tried to fish a widebody ("Fatboy") Delta in the Bearing Sea and regretted it - "Was this $%*/# thing built out of &!*/%$ putty?"

apex1
08-31-2010, 11:44 AM
Absolutely right about the retired couple prefering the more gentle motions further aft - I forgot the criteria. Too much flare - you mean cosmetically, you don't like the look?

No Mark, I mean less flare provides reserve buoyancy sooner and makes for a less rough ride.
Here the flare is needed to prevent too much spray on the windows I think.

Tad, the NZ boat you posted looks similar but the portuguese bridge is not there - On a passagemaker, I'd think one wud want to be able to go into a headsea and I'm not sure I'd be comfortable without something to deflect water other than the glass. One dip of that bow and one will find the limit of the wheelhouse windows!
Now that I remember that the boat wud be for a retired couple, "North Sea Trawler", which I previously voted for, wud be the best way on this size vessel, IMO.
I suppose these type of vessels fall under "US Style Trawler" but when I think of those, I think of Taiwan built things and boats that aren't as capable as I'd like.
This boat was built by a friend of mine, Bud LeMieux, at Delta Marine. Not coincidentally, Bud also founded Northern Marine and built the Spirit of Zopilote when the original was piled onto a rock.


Deltas Zopilote was a well known and respected boat, and imho much better than the mass products sailing under the "Passagemaker" flag and selling like hot bread. You know the brand....

This type of boat looks nice but part of their attraction is the nice surfaces attainable in GRP. This same feature renders them not as good a passagemeker, IMO, and it has been argued that more attention was applied to cosmetics than strength. I won't say...but a commercial fisherman tried to fish a widebody ("Fatboy") Delta in the Bearing Sea and regretted it - "Was this $%*/# thing built out of &!*/%$ putty?"

Right, they LOOK nice, thats it.


Richard,
I've just got back from Croatia and took few pics of this beauty in the port of Rovinj. Don't know the model, but it looks like an old Baglietto yacht to me.
I'm showing these pics here because she seems to be in line with some of previously shown yachts in this thread.
Cheers!

Yepp, I too think thats a old Benetti. Nice boat, Thank you for the pic´s.

Regards
Richard

zerogara
09-06-2010, 01:24 PM
When I saw the title of this thread I thought it would be very interesting, full of arguments for and against cutters, full keels, yawls and ketches, etc.
Then I opened it! :(

As a smoker I can't preach too much against diesel dependency. I did enjoy the pictures though and I do like the aesthetics of workboats.

Wynand N
09-06-2010, 02:25 PM
The Gentleman's yacht of the 60's appeal best to me. Perhaps the hippie in me...

apex1
09-06-2010, 02:55 PM
When I saw the title of this thread I thought it would be very interesting, full of arguments for and against cutters, full keels, yawls and ketches, etc.
Then I opened it! :(

As a smoker I can't preach too much against diesel dependency. I did enjoy the pictures though and I do like the aesthetics of workboats.

I can feel your pain.

But life is a ruthless game.

When the sailors get a bit older, they notice that sailing can become a tough job. The logical choice is more often than in the past, the motoryacht.

BTW
just leaving the page would not have harmed you!

Richard

mark775
09-06-2010, 03:32 PM
"...can't preach too much against diesel dependency" - Well, It's going to burn heavier fuel than diesel but I know what you meant. Even with diesel, you wud be surprised at the economy of these vessels if you keep your foot out of it. The vessel I posted gets a mile a gallon at six knots and could carry twelve Priuses (two high) or four sailboats on its deck doing it, and when it was built little heed was payed to economy. Richard's boats will be built with economy in mind and will do even better.
Does maybe $20,000 a year in fuel for traveling all over the world sound like a lot? It sounds like a cheap, wonderful vacation to me, with better ameneties than available shoreside in most places. Might even haul some cargo and pay for that! This type of vessel, for those that can afford it, are the future, IMO. It is about the minimum size that can be comfortably self-contained, offers security in weather and who knows security from what else hidden from the world in a remote bay of Alaska or the Mar de Cortez or visiting Macau or Mauritius in good times. If it were not for the Jones Act (prohibiting port-to-port commerce for foreign builds within the US) I'd probably sell off what I own (have to check with wife first on that!) and use the proceeds as a down-payment on one of these vessels - and PAY FOR my means of living wherever I want with the occasional cargo I wud haul. Now, that's style!

"...just leaving the page would not have harmed you!" LOL!

mydauphin
09-06-2010, 04:06 PM
"...can't preach too much against diesel dependency" - Well, It's going to burn heavier fuel than diesel but I know what you meant. Even with diesel, you wud be surprised at the economy of these vessels if you keep your foot out of it. The vessel I posted gets a mile a gallon at six knots and could carry twelve Priuses (two high) or four sailboats on its deck doing it, and when it was built little heed was payed to economy. Richard's boats will be built with economy in mind and will do even better.
Does maybe $20,000 a year in fuel for traveling all over the world sound like a lot? It sounds like a cheap, wonderful vacation to me, with better ameneties than available shoreside in most places. Might even haul some cargo and pay for that! This type of vessel, for those that can afford it, are the future, IMO. It is about the minimum size that can be comfortably self-contained, offers security in weather and who knows security from what else hidden from the world in a remote bay of Alaska or the Mar de Cortez or visiting Macau or Mauritius in good times. If it were not for the Jones Act (prohibiting port-to-port commerce for foreign builds within the US) I'd probably sell off what I own (have to check with wife first on that!) and use the proceeds as a down-payment on one of these vessels - and PAY FOR my means of living wherever I want with the occasional cargo I wud haul. Now, that's style!

"...just leaving the page would not have harmed you!" LOL!

I am still hoping to do just that taking people scuba diving or fishing.

dskira
09-06-2010, 07:26 PM
I am taken by the Cox and Stevens design of 1918.
It is originally a wooden trawler, but it can be an inspiration of something in steel really interesting.
I think this vessel as everything, power, style, balance. The hull draft is quite amazing at 14', she weight a nice 700 tons. (steam propulsion)
of course I know it is far larger than Richard want, but it is good also to explore and take some inspiration.
And the sails, as I was talking on the propulsion thread are perfectly included.
What you expect from Daniel Cox, one of the greatest designer ever.

I hope I am not to extreme in my taste for this thread

Daniel

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk25/dskira/Trawler1918.jpg

wardd
09-06-2010, 07:40 PM
I am taken by the Cox and Stevens design of 1918.
It is originally a wooden trawler, but it can be an inspiration of something in steel really interesting.
I think this vessel as everything, power, style, balance. The hull draft is quite amazing at 14', she weight a nice 700 tons. (steam propulsion)
of course I know it is far larger than Richard want, but it is good also to explore and take some inspiration.
And the sails, as I was talking on the propulsion thread are perfectly included.
What you expect from Daniel Cox, one of the greatest designer ever.

I hope I not to extreme in my taste for this thread

Daniel

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk25/dskira/Trawler1918.jpg


I like it, almost as much as a liberty ship

now if it had rust streaks it would be perfect

MikeJohns
09-08-2010, 10:49 PM
We need to remember this vessel that Richard is proposing is for people, as a home. This is the architecture bit of naval architecture.
Natural light, feeling of security, good offshore layout, easily accessed outside shelter from sun wind and rain while underway, either in or out of the sun. Good interior-exterior access, Easy bridge access from the Salon. Sheltered side decks, deck chairs in the shade.
As we remove the holds and working decks of the wonderful style of the boat just posted you end up with the same style and practical solutions as Fairmile did themselves when they converted trawlers to yachts based on the same hull.

daiquiri
09-09-2010, 06:27 AM
now if it had rust streaks it would be perfect
That's an easy feature to add, and a very cheap one too.

dskira
09-09-2010, 11:48 AM
We need to remember this vessel that Richard is proposing is for people, as a home. This is the architecture bit of naval architecture.
Natural light, feeling of security, good offshore layout, easily accessed outside shelter from sun wind and rain while underway, either in or out of the sun. Good interior-exterior access, Easy bridge access from the Salon. Sheltered side decks, deck chairs in the shade.
As we remove the holds and working decks of the wonderful style of the boat just posted you end up with the same style and practical solutions as Fairmile did themselves when they converted trawlers to yachts based on the same hull.

Yes, I agree. very well said.
Daniel

apex1
09-09-2010, 12:01 PM
That's an easy feature to add, and a very cheap one too.

Not when I build the boat, let me claim!

Epoxy primed and encapsulated, such steel boat must not, and will not show rust stain when there is a little maintenance effort invested.

Though the idea of building something around the lines of that old coaster, obviously fallen out of the last century, looking like coming home from a 86 years trip, that does have a very strong, and magical power of attraction to me.

Imagine the rust stained and salt crusted hull and bridge, the proud stem heading to port in a drizzly evening at autumn. shivver.....

daiquiri
09-09-2010, 12:27 PM
Not when I build the boat, let me claim!
I'm sure about that. ;)


Though the idea of building something around the lines of that old coaster, obviously fallen out of the last century, looking like coming home from a 86 years trip, that does have a very strong, and magical power of attraction to me.
Imagine the rust stained and salt crusted hull and bridge, the proud stem heading to port in a drizzly evening at autumn. shivver.....
Well Richard, one of reasons why I love the old boats is right because of that rusty and lived appearance. It is like looking at a historical monument. Somehow, it fills me with a sense of awe, respect and peace (yes, peace...) to know that I'm standing in front of an "living" object which has seen so much human history and could tell so many life stories that 100 books wouldn't be enough, if one wanted to write them. :)

So how about letting the metal surface rust to the right amount, then dry it thoroughly and cover it all with a clear (transparent) protective coatings and varnishes? The aluminum parts could be a problem though, if you wanted them unpainted. Otherwise, they could be painted with simil-rust patterns and then coated/varnished.

Incidentally, model makers are experts in creating simil-rusty appearences on the models of the old warships and freighters, I've seen some true artworks at few expositions I've had occasion to visit. :)

Cheers

apex1
09-09-2010, 12:39 PM
I'm sure about that. ;)
Well Richard, one of reasons why I love the old boats is right because of that rusty and lived appearance. It is like looking at a historical monument. Somehow, it fills me with a sense of awe, respect and peace (yes, peace...) to know that I'm standing in front of an "living" object which has seen so much human history and could tell so many life stories that 100 books wouldn't be enough, if one wanted to write them. :)

So how about letting the metal surface rust to the right amount, then dry it thoroughly and cover it all with a clear (transparent) protective coatings and varnishes? The aluminum parts could be a problem though, if you wanted them unpainted. Otherwise, they could be painted with simil-rust patterns and then coated/varnished.

Incidentally, model makers are experts in creating simil-rusty appearences on the models of the old warships or freighters, I've seen some true artworks at few expositions I've had occasion to visit. :)

Cheers

Attracts me,

really!

No effort to apply "rust stains" and "salt encrustment" with modern paint and resins.

It is Operette, yes, but what are the "modern" style vessels? Drama.....

There is another advantage, having a "old and weathered" ship. Instead of stealing your electronics, burglars would probably nail a 20$ note on the wooden railing, out of pity.................

As I said before, dreaming is allowed on the Passagemaker threads!:)

TeddyDiver
09-09-2010, 12:42 PM
So how about letting the metal surface rust to the right amount, then dry it thoroughly and cover it all with a clear (transparent) protective coatings and varnishes?
Just leave some nails, washer etc on the bulwark... no protection needed :)

wardd
09-09-2010, 12:48 PM
Attracts me,

really!

No effort to apply "rust stains" and "salt encrustment" with modern paint and resins.

It is Operette, yes, but what are the "modern" style vessels? Drama.....

There is another advantage, having a "old and weathered" ship. Instead of stealing your electronics, burglars would probably nail a 20$ note on the wooden railing, out of pity.................

As I said before, dreaming is allowed on the Passagemaker threads!:)

exactly

srimes
09-09-2010, 02:22 PM
Just leave some nails, washer etc on the bulwark... no protection needed :)

there you go. fender washers + magnets = temporary rust tatoos.

apex1
09-10-2010, 12:13 PM
We need to remember this vessel that Richard is proposing is for people, as a home. This is the architecture bit of naval architecture.
Natural light, feeling of security, good offshore layout, easily accessed outside shelter from sun wind and rain while underway, either in or out of the sun. Good interior-exterior access, Easy bridge access from the Salon. Sheltered side decks, deck chairs in the shade.
As we remove the holds and working decks of the wonderful style of the boat just posted you end up with the same style and practical solutions as Fairmile did themselves when they converted trawlers to yachts based on the same hull.

Yepp, the architecture, a very popular point of failure in the NA´s business.

That leads me to the next thread, the GA question.

Not sure by now where to start, but I am not in a hurry.

wardd
09-10-2010, 12:26 PM
I am taken by the Cox and Stevens design of 1918.
It is originally a wooden trawler, but it can be an inspiration of something in steel really interesting.
I think this vessel as everything, power, style, balance. The hull draft is quite amazing at 14', she weight a nice 700 tons. (steam propulsion)
of course I know it is far larger than Richard want, but it is good also to explore and take some inspiration.
And the sails, as I was talking on the propulsion thread are perfectly included.
What you expect from Daniel Cox, one of the greatest designer ever.

I hope I am not to extreme in my taste for this thread

Daniel

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk25/dskira/Trawler1918.jpg


dan where did you get that pic from?

dskira
09-10-2010, 06:03 PM
Wardd from:

Wooden Ship building
Charles Desmond
Rudder Publishing Co.
1919

You can find it reprinted by Vestal Press on paperback.

Daniel

wardd
09-10-2010, 06:05 PM
Wardd from:

Wooden Ship building
Charles Desmond
Rudder Publishing Co.
1919

You can find it reprinted by Vestal Press on paperback.

Daniel


thanks, i thought it was online

wardd
09-11-2010, 02:46 PM
I can see that ship plying the south pacific with cargo and passengers consisting of the innocent young heiress and an assortment of arms dealers, spies and con men

wardd
09-11-2010, 03:32 PM
I was able to down load it from online


http://www.scribd.com/doc/32780295/Wooden-Ship-Building

wardd
09-11-2010, 07:03 PM
I was not!



save it as a web page all the pages will be jpg images in a separate folder

daiquiri
09-12-2010, 01:00 PM
Richard, first you need to create an account in Scribd (that's for free), in order to pdf-print files. Then you login and cllick on the Wardd's link to the book. There will be a "download" button in the upper right angle. When you click on it, a window will show up where you will be asked to pay $5.00 for 1-day access to documents downloading.
After you have paid, you can download this and other books as pdf, for 24 hours.

yipster
09-12-2010, 01:08 PM
apex, reading and seeing al those golden oldies saying nothing, do want to let you know what my choice of a perfect passagemaker would be
i'm some sort of a golden oldie too but my taste goes more like what willallison posted, worse, i'll go cat, best motorsailing
yes for a multitude of reasons cats, so okay i'll shut up now ;)
http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/uploads/images/Pacific%20Harmony/pacificharmony9.jpg
and while dreaming here some samples (http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.php?page=pacific-harmony),

apex1
09-12-2010, 01:11 PM
Richard, first you need to create an account in Scribd (that's for free), in order to pdf-print files. Then you login and cllick on the Wardd's link to the book. There will be a "download" button in the upper right angle. When you click on it, a window will show up where you will be asked to pay $5.00 for 1-day access to documents downloading.
After you have paid, you can download this and other books as pdf, for 24 hours.

Thank you Slavi. I am not a friend of any online payment, no matter what. And I will never subscribe to such sites. I have enough spam in my mail accounts, no need for more. And every other month some idiot is asking me to confirm my account data for pay pal, and the like!
No, thanks.

Regards
Richard

apex1
09-12-2010, 08:41 PM
apex, reading and seeing al those golden oldies saying nothing, do want to let you know what my choice of a perfect passagemaker would be
i'm some sort of a golden oldie too but my taste goes more like what willallison posted, worse, i'll go cat, best motorsailing
yes for a multitude of reasons cats, so okay i'll shut up now ;)and while dreaming here some samples[/URL],

Fortunately our tastes are different.

But I don not see just "Golden Oldies", there are three old fashioned and four contemporary designs amongst the choices, with the North Sea Trawler somewhere in between.

And Cats are sure not what I would call a passagemaker. Too uncomfortable the ride in all conditions except dead calm seas.
No thanks.

hoytedow
09-12-2010, 08:45 PM
USS Olympia. Post deleted(nearly) for sake of thread integrity.

mydauphin
09-12-2010, 10:42 PM
Beautiful Ship, reverse bow like Feadship, over 100 year old design comes back. Those naval engineers back then really worked on hulls to get max speed considering propulsion they had. Ship cost originally under 2 mil to build. A bit of money back then.

apex1
09-13-2010, 09:28 AM
We are drifting quite a bit too far away now, at least for my taste.

yipster
09-13-2010, 10:36 AM
there is one thing i like to ask again, what would be wrong with a little sail on the passagemaker?

apex1
09-13-2010, 10:55 AM
there is one thing i like to ask again, what would be wrong with a little sail on the passagemaker?

Nothing, quite the opposite.

The Trawler could easily have a sail. The Gentlemans Yacht will have to wait for the next generation of Skysails Kites though.

Milan
09-13-2010, 12:47 PM
… reverse bow like Feadship, over 100 year old design comes back. Those naval engineers back then really worked on hulls to get max speed considering propulsion they had…

Reverse bow on that ship wasn’t for speed. It was meant to be a weapon.

(When iron ships were introduced, naval artillery of the period couldn’t breach armour. So, new naval battle tactics were needed. Inspiration was found in the ancient Greek – Roman naval tactics: ships were used as a projectiles, strong, sharp bow rammed the opposing ship under the water line).

… The Trawler could easily have a sail…

It could, but hull and superstructure are to bulky for a sail to have much effect. Enough to soften rolling a bit, but not much for propulsion.

apex1
09-13-2010, 01:05 PM
It could, but hull and superstructure are to bulky for a sail to have much effect. Enough to soften rolling a bit, but not much for propulsion.

It is not necessary to be much for propulsion and not even welcome. These are Motoryachts, nothing else.
When there is a temporary rig to stumble ahead, thats enough.

And please lets stop the discussion about old dreadnoughts.

hoytedow
09-13-2010, 06:42 PM
I will remove the post.

apex1
09-13-2010, 07:25 PM
I will remove the post.

No Hoyt,

we just must not get too deep into that topic.

hoytedow
09-13-2010, 09:56 PM
Let us just say I attempted to lessen the temptation to go there.

apex1
09-17-2010, 11:32 PM
It seems we will get a refinement of Tad´s proposal within the next days. The #8 on the list.
That will be interesting to discuss, because it is substantially lighter than the other boats.

A first sketch:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk25/dskira/PL74blueprint.jpg

Regards
Richard

hoytedow
09-18-2010, 06:53 PM
Do you think the lighter weight will make it more susceptible to damage from the usual bad weather conditions?

apex1
09-18-2010, 07:23 PM
Do you think the lighter weight will make it more susceptible to damage from the usual bad weather conditions?

No Hoyt,

the lighter weight can, under certain circumstances, be a advantage. Lighter is faster, and speed lets you avoid the worst part of a front, when on the open ocean. And ONLY ocean passages are part of these threads.

These boats are just the product of a different philosophy. Both are valid, and both are proven right.

I am a old dinosaur, like Daniel and a few others. We like it rugged, stable, heavy and lasting `til eternity.

These lighter boats have their place on the market, no doubt. Saving fuel, running faster, having less material required (at the same cost though), makes sense.

Of course there is a flip side, as always in our business.

When you circumnavigate all year round and for extended time, you will replace half the equipment after much shorter lifespan than on the "real little ships".

That is for sure eating up any fuel savings, and ends up in a disadvantage.
But it fits the real world quite well.
More than 80% of the "Passagemakers" are just used for coastal cruising as the "Yoghurt cups". Then again it pays back to be lighter.

All a question of how good you can estimate your real requirements, and how well you can avoid mixing it with dreams.

Regards
Richard

hoytedow
09-18-2010, 07:49 PM
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I was not sure if the lighter weight was a result of skimping on necessary material just to lower the cost to builder.

Glücklich Oktoberfest! I know it started in München heute.

apex1
09-20-2010, 03:34 PM
We are getting closer!

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/47691d1284951604-designing-your-own-boat-fool-client-pl74round2.jpg

Thank you Tad, especially for the round bilge!

Regards
Richard

srimes
09-20-2010, 04:01 PM
looks beautiful. Why the preference for a round bilge?

apex1
09-20-2010, 04:32 PM
looks beautiful. Why the preference for a round bilge?

Because I build boats to sell them, not to be stored in my backyard!

srimes
09-20-2010, 04:54 PM
?

So in general that's just what people prefer?

Manie B
09-20-2010, 05:19 PM
Is it just me

or

are we going mini dashew


BUT - I like it and personally would go that route
I read the comment about 60ft plus and the sea
but dashew is for very rich folks

sub 50ft - light - 2 small diesels - 8 knots - great fun

very nice boat Tad

Manie B
09-20-2010, 05:35 PM
Style :-

Gentlemans Yacht of the Sixties

still one heck of a "stylish" boat with so many layout options
and could be built "affordable" for that market in todays economy


anyway - dont know if you saw this one of dashew
one very smart video
http://dashewoffshore.smugmug.com/gallery/6802329_jB96x#434939709_9pkLM-A-LB

apex1
09-20-2010, 05:45 PM
Style :-
still one heck of a "stylish" boat with so many layout options
and could be built "affordable" for that market in todays economy

Concur!

anyway - dont know if you saw this one of dashew
one very smart video
http://dashewoffshore.smugmug.com/gallery/6802329_jB96x#434939709_9pkLM-A-LB

Of course Manie.
I am familiar with Dashews Windhorse for long.

And the vessel shown above is not a mini whatsoever....
It is substantially bigger than the FPB 64 and can be done at roughly the same price in Al.

Srimes,

yes, a round bilge boat is much much easier to sell as a hard chine, a multi chine is hard to give away.

Regards
Richard

Tad
09-20-2010, 10:34 PM
Is it just me

or

are we going mini dashew




With the PL 74?.....Well I certainly don't think so.....besides I published the first Passagemaker Lite concepts long before Windhorse came along.

One of my thoughts is that the Dashew boats (83 and 64) don't have very people friendly decks. A high flush deck provides good high-angle stability, but Dashew has learned (in 35,000 miles) that's not a huge issue. They may be normal for modern sailing types, but I know that the high bulwarks on Grand Banks boats sell boats to women (who often get deck duty). Wire lifelines and tiny little toerails don't do much for confidence on the deck. I really like the high bulwarks along the side decks, a solid roof overhead so windows and doors can be opened in any weather, and the well protected after deck. The only place to be outside on Windhorse is the Flying Bridge, which also seems unprotected with it's open front, low sides, and plex uppers.

Other differences are the swim step, Windhorse's is tiny and you can't step on to it from the dock, ours is full width of the boat (13' wide) and 30" fore and aft. And it opens to a huge storage garage, not two little lockers but a space full width of the boat, 10' fore and aft, and over 5' deep. That's one locker with 650 cubic feet of storage.....

The ability to carry a good big boat is also vital. The PL 74 can carry a 17' to 17'6" outboard boat on her afterdeck. Boats this big can have great range and take prolonged exploration or fishing trips away from the mothership. But boats this big are heavy, and get scary to load with cranes, so rollers and a winch are the way to go. Not having to tow this big boat everywhere will be worth the price of admission to me.

Those are just a few of the things I was thinking this afternoon........

apex1
09-21-2010, 11:51 AM
With the PL 74?.....Well I certainly don't think so.....besides I published the first Passagemaker Lite concepts long before Windhorse came along.

One of my thoughts is that the Dashew boats (83 and 64) don't have very people friendly decks. A high flush deck provides good high-angle stability, but Dashew has learned (in 35,000 miles) that's not a huge issue. They may be normal for modern sailing types, but I know that the high bulwarks on Grand Banks boats sell boats to women (who often get deck duty). Wire lifelines and tiny little toerails don't do much for confidence on the deck. I really like the high bulwarks along the side decks, a solid roof overhead so windows and doors can be opened in any weather, and the well protected after deck. The only place to be outside on Windhorse is the Flying Bridge, which also seems unprotected with it's open front, low sides, and plex uppers.

Other differences are the swim step, Windhorse's is tiny and you can't step on to it from the dock, ours is full width of the boat (13' wide) and 30" fore and aft. And it opens to a huge storage garage, not two little lockers but a space full width of the boat, 10' fore and aft, and over 5' deep. That's one locker with 650 cubic feet of storage.....

The ability to carry a good big boat is also vital. The PL 74 can carry a 17' to 17'6" outboard boat on her afterdeck. Boats this big can have great range and take prolonged exploration or fishing trips away from the mothership. But boats this big are heavy, and get scary to load with cranes, so rollers and a winch are the way to go. Not having to tow this big boat everywhere will be worth the price of admission to me.

Those are just a few of the things I was thinking this afternoon........

As Daniel already said: this boat is what Dashews should have done.
No matter how you look at it, Windhorse is not the best solution, just the best marketed!

I am absolutely sure I can do this one, performing as good, or better than the FPB (the larger), at substantially lower cost.

Regards
Richard

Tad
09-21-2010, 01:03 PM
As Daniel already said: this boat is what Dashews should have done.


As Bill Garden wrote many years ago, "In hindsight any boat can be improved."

No question the PL74 builds on the well-publicized experience the Dashews have gained with Windhorse......we are the beneficiaries of their work........

apex1
09-21-2010, 01:30 PM
As Bill Garden wrote many years ago, "In hindsight any boat can be improved."

No question the PL74 builds on the well-publicized experience the Dashews have gained with Windhorse......we are the beneficiaries of their work........

I still hope on mine too, though not a well publicized.:)

Bill Garden was right, no doubt.

Manie B
09-21-2010, 01:49 PM
Absolutely

I really like the high bulwarks along the side decks, a solid roof overhead so windows and doors can be opened in any weather, and the well protected after deck

apex1 these threads have been very informative and most enjoyable to read
but I'm confused - is this boat for yourself and the wife
or is it aimed at the open market

my take on "style" for this boat is a smart passage maker for two and to accommodate occasional guests like the children and grand children, in other words a very "personalised" boat / tiny ship
I would love to know what style the New York / Monte Carlo yuppies go for now and is the "gentlemans yacht" applicable for that market

Because I build boats to sell them, not to be stored in my backyard!

Milan
09-21-2010, 05:17 PM
… We like it rugged, stable, heavy and lasting `til eternity…
These lighter boats … Saving fuel, running faster, having less material required (at the same cost though), makes sense.…

I think “heavy’ and “light” by itself are misleading. If concerned about speed and fuel consumption, displacement versus waterline length ratio is what counts.

One way to achieve low displ/ WLL ratio is to use very light materials. That’s expensive.

Other, cheap and simple way is stretching the hull. Keep same displacement, hull width, height, engine … all the expensive stuff. Add, say, 30% more length to the hull and make enterance angle at the bow a little sharper. Boat will be faster and considerably more fuel efficient for the minor cost of 30% more hull material and paint.

And you keep long lasting ruggedness.

.... Dashew boats … high flush deck … Wire lifelines and tiny little toerails … confidence on the deck…. not … people friendly ........

Dashew’s are coming from the sailing boat background, (their customers probably as well),so flush deck with a lifelines is fine for them.

(I do like your light series and your interpretation of the Marco Polo by the way).

apex1
09-21-2010, 05:29 PM
apex1 these threads have been very informative and most enjoyable to read
but I'm confused - is this boat for yourself and the wife
or is it aimed at the open market

my take on "style" for this boat is a smart passage maker for two and to accommodate occasional guests like the children and grand children, in other words a very "personalised" boat / tiny ship
I would love to know what style the New York / Monte Carlo yuppies go for now and is the "gentlemans yacht" applicable for that market

These boats are planned to be offered as a new range of capable Passagemakers on the market Manie. I have no Family left to go cruising with.

And they are (all of these vessels discussed here), thought for a couple, maybe some children, and occasional guests. No crew, and no accommodation for a football team.
It is part of the philosophy that these boats are sailed by just two persons all of the time.

The yuppie will not be attracted by these vessels I am sure, but that is not my target.
I am addressing the seasoned sailboat people at the point when they come to the conclusion, that after decades of pain and frozen asses, the iron spinnacker is the perfect sail. A conclusion almost all of them draw after a while at sea.

These boats are a bit bigger than the required minimum. That is what the skilled sailors want. Elbow room and speed. Both requires length.


One way to achieve low displ/ WLL ratio is to use very light materials. That’s expensive.
Other, cheap and simple way is stretching the hull. Keep same displacement, hull width, height, engine … all the expensive stuff. Add, say, 30% more length to the hull and make enterance angle at the bow a little sharper. Boat will be faster and considerably more fuel efficient for the minor cost of 30% more hull material and paint.

That is basically what I preach for 35 years now.
Though, there IS a substantial difference in behaviour between "light" and "heavy" per se!

Regards
Richard

Manie B
09-23-2010, 11:20 AM
I was just "surfing" around and came across this lovely video of a boat remarkably similar to the "gentlemans yacht of the 60's"

just thought you guys would like to see what the "gentlemans yacht of the 60's" looks like on the water

oh well maybe oneday when Richard builds one I can go for a ride ;)

http://www.cheoylee.com.au/pages/page.php?id=36

the design "style" has most definately survived the test of time - sure is beautifull

Manie B
09-23-2010, 11:26 AM
sorry forgot the pic - very much gentlemens yacht

apex1
09-23-2010, 11:35 AM
I was just "surfing" around and came across this lovely video of a boat remarkably similar to the "gentlemans yacht of the 60's"
oh well maybe oneday when Richard builds one I can go for a ride ;)

Welcome Manie!

the design "style" has most definately survived the test of time - sure is beautifull

Yes these boats have lent from the 60ies style to some extend.
But they are just daycruisers. The typical docksitter looking like old salts toy.

No food storage, laundry etc. No proper bridge layout, but massive accommodation for a whole village. Fortunately there is always a Mc D. to feed the herd, so you don´t need storage.

Manie B
09-23-2010, 03:47 PM
Richard I would like to ask the panel a couple of questions here on your thread, feel free to move it to a new thread if you wish.

The topic is most definately still the same style of this passage maker.
The question is how to - dramatically - cut costs.

What I have gained so far from your threads is
a. Style is the enduring "Gentlemans yacht of the sixties"
b. Built in steel
c. Single engine (which did surprise me a lot)
d. Relative comfort as set out within these threads for two people
e. Equipped to modern standards - radar, AIS, chartplotter, etc. and watermaker (kept to minimums)
f. no gold taps or crazy woodwork - a hands on practical mans boat, not a floating brothel / casino covered in red velvet fit for a woman / prima donna that should be fed to the sharks :P:D

Now we take a clean sheet of paper and design the hull to be super fuel efficient (round bilges:) and we reduce the length to say 12m or 40ft with a maximum speed of 6 knots.

When I was sailing the 11m Beneteau in the Indian ocean at six knots it could get pretty uncomfortable at times close hauling, on a broad reach or running it was very good. Motoring was poor. The point is, six knots is a very good speed especially if you could maintain it 24/7.

I was discussing this "gentlemens yacht" with my mates and we are all of the opinion that we would be 100% happy with 6 knots bang on into a head wind, should the need arise. Some of these guys have been around twice! and they can tell stories of lousy motoring for days.
There are many guys out there that would go to power (iron spinaker:)) but I am not sure if there is really something on the market for long distance cruising and passage making that is designed around fuel efficiency primarily. As you put it yourself
No food storage, laundry etc. No proper bridge layout, but massive accommodation for a whole village - they are just daycruisers. The typical docksitter

So there it is, could this be done much much more affordable, not cheap, not **** or nasty, just a good solid well built boat in line with most reasonable modern requirements, comfortable motoring, an old salts boat, he who is tired of the enormous costs of rigging and sails and the theives that operate in that commodity.

apex1
09-23-2010, 09:32 PM
Richard I would like to ask the panel a couple of questions here on your thread, feel free to move it to a new thread if you wish.

Why should I move it? You are completely on topic.

The topic is most definately still the same style of this passage maker.
The question is how to - dramatically - cut costs.

What I have gained so far from your threads is
a. Style is the enduring "Gentlemans yacht of the sixties"
b. Built in steel
c. Single engine (which did surprise me a lot)
d. Relative comfort as set out within these threads for two people
e. Equipped to modern standards - radar, AIS, chartplotter, etc. and watermaker (kept to minimums)
f. no gold taps or crazy woodwork - a hands on practical mans boat, not a floating brothel / casino covered in red velvet fit for a woman / prima donna that should be fed to the sharks :P:D


a. that one and the North sea trawler! And maybe Tad´s design too!
b. the Trawler yes, steel, The Yacht in steel, Al. or even wood epoxy. Tad´s boat in Al.
c. surprising? The only logical and economical solution!
d. right
e. not kept to minimums, quite the opposite, to highest commercial standards.
f. right, but not workboat look, yacht standard!

Now we take a clean sheet of paper and design the hull to be super fuel efficient (round bilges:) and we reduce the length to say 12m or 40ft with a maximum speed of 6 knots.

Sounds nice, but does not function. Such boat can never maintain 6kn over more than a short leg in good conditions. A comfortable and reliable blue water boat has 20 and more meter LWL. Even then, it cannot go at the designed cruising speed for 24/7 all the time.

I was discussing this "gentlemens yacht" with my mates and we are all of the opinion that we would be 100% happy with 6 knots bang on into a head wind, should the need arise. Some of these guys have been around twice! and they can tell stories of lousy motoring for days.

Well, I was around 3 times (8 if I just count the miles), and agree that motoring on a sailing boat is a shitty ride in most conditions. But these craft here are stable, rugged and capable to stand harsh conditions and make headway, safely. Slamming uphill for hrs or days is not possible above some conditions, no matter the size of vessel, but depending on size. A 40ft something is just not the right size to make passages safe (fatigue) and fast enough.

There are many guys out there that would go to power (iron spinaker:)) but I am not sure if there is really something on the market for long distance cruising and passage making that is designed around fuel efficiency primarily.

The boats we discuss here are designed exactly around fuel efficiency, nothing else!

So there it is, could this be done much much more affordable, not cheap, not **** or nasty, just a good solid well built boat in line with most reasonable modern requirements, comfortable motoring, an old salts boat, he who is tired of the enormous costs of rigging and sails and the theives that operate in that commodity.

This is what I have in mind Manie.

At estimated consumptions of roughly 15 - 18 - 28 ltr/hr for the PML - Trawler - Yacht respectively, we are on the very, very economic side for the given length and properties of these boats.

The next step I have in mind, is such craft with the accommodation of a 14m boat, but at 20m Loa.

Regards
Richard

Willallison
09-23-2010, 09:57 PM
The next step I have in mind, is such craft with the accommodation of a 14m boat, but at 20m Loa.

Regards
Richard

This is exactly the approach I took for K5, which I think I posted earlier, but just in case not, here it is again. It was, in fact, my entry into the Passagemaker Magazine design comp - and so intended as a long-term cruiser for a couple, just as you are proposing here. Though in this instance it was primarily for coastal and intra-coastal work, so greater emphasis was placed on drafts (both air and water).
The judges deemed that it was too large for the intended purpose. I disagree, of course, considering that it was only just big enough (62ft). The notion that simply by virtue of length a vessel becomes too complex, too esxpensive, and too difficult to operate is one that I take exception to. Once a vessel exceeds about 40ft - often rather less - it becomes too large to man-handle, and so one must rely on either machinery (thrusters etc) or expertise - and usually both - to maneuver it.

I definitely think you are on the right track Richard:p

u4ea32
09-24-2010, 12:37 AM
Fortunately our tastes are different.

But I don not see just "Golden Oldies", there are three old fashioned and four contemporary designs amongst the choices, with the North Sea Trawler somewhere in between.

And Cats are sure not what I would call a passagemaker. Too uncomfortable the ride in all conditions except dead calm seas.
No thanks.

I have heard from someone who travelled long distances over the Pacific on a power tri (the Yanmar Endeavor) that the motion was the worst he ever experienced on any boat.

However, in my experience, a power cat is somewhat configured like a sailing cat (narrow hulls, high bridge deck) can have a vastly superior ride in very heavy seas (Pacific hurricane). Pacific Harmony, the one in the picture, does have these characteristics. That particular boat is one sweet, efficient, tremendously well engineered ride.

Smaller cats can have a low bridge deck and still have absolutely incredibly wonderful ride in rough conditions, as the "soup" between the hulls provides a very nice smooth amazingly low impact ride.

The one thing I don't like at all is when the bridge deck is low, such that waves at anchor hit the bridge deck. That is awful! But very many power cats do not have this problem.

Apex, you should try some others, if you had a bad experience on one. What kind gave you a bad experience?

Manie B
09-24-2010, 02:07 AM
:D ok point taken fully understood :D

now the million dollar question




bottom line
how much

what could the estimated thumb suck price be?
complete boat ready to go, just add fuel and food and were cruising ;)

Bounty Hunter
09-24-2010, 06:03 AM
i hope i dont come across as an uninformed newbie - which i guess i am, but i have been following this thread with since its inception and im most interested in peoples thoughts on the topic.

i dont recall anyone mentioning designs by michael kasten. although many are smaller the the suggested 20m+ mark, i think the lines and intended purposes of some of his boats warrant consideration?

thoughts?

Manie B
09-24-2010, 07:34 AM
i dont recall anyone mentioning designs by michael kasten

I know the site and have never liked the designs

http://www.kastenmarine.com/news.htm

his designs lean towards the "olde world" tug / trawler / gaff rig style boats
most are designed with a single hard chine and huge box keels and the designs are optimised for cnc cutting = large flat plates. At a glance I get the impression that he is invloved with the cutting facility

my take on this "new" boat is that the hull MUST absolutely of modern design, very smooth round bilges.
A proper design optimised with freeship or what ever software the designer is familiar with
this design must be optimised for the sake of the design and not for the sake of a prefered ship yards capabilities

here is a pic of the last boat that Wynand built in steel - an absolute work of art, first time in my life that I saw a steel boat with NO BODY FILLER PUTTY

just my 2 cents (no michael kasten design please thank you) ;););)

apex1
09-24-2010, 09:41 AM
I have heard from someone who travelled long distances over the Pacific on a power tri (the Yanmar Endeavor) that the motion was the worst he ever experienced on any boat.

I can understand that.
And you, please understand, we DO NOT discuss multihulls here, that was a clearly stated condition!

All cats have a uncomfortable motion when the going gets tough, one sooner, others later, but the accelerations are always less predictable and not nice.

And the boats we discuss her (exclusively mono´s) are designed to circumnavigate and explore even the more nasty, remote places. Hence no cats.

Then, there is my personal aversion. I will never build anything that stays stable upside down once flipped over, when open ocean is the intended useage.
Hence no cats. period



now the million dollar question
bottom line
how much
what could the estimated thumb suck price be?
complete boat ready to go, just add fuel and food and were cruising ;)

Which one Manie??? (one mio us$$$ is not enough, even for the smallest, which is not even designed yet)


i dont recall anyone mentioning designs by michael kasten. although many are smaller the the suggested 20m+ mark, i think the lines and intended purposes of some of his boats warrant consideration?thoughts?

You said it already, too small, except one, and that is a floating condo.
Kasten is a well respected designer, no doubt, but I am missing the touch of art in his style. Just my personal opinion, but I don´t build what I don´t like! MY boats are MY expression of fine boatbuilding art.

Regards
Richard

apex1
09-24-2010, 10:13 AM
I disagree, of course, considering that it was only just big enough (62ft). The notion that simply by virtue of length a vessel becomes too complex, too esxpensive, and too difficult to operate is one that I take exception to. Once a vessel exceeds about 40ft - often rather less - it becomes too large to man-handle, and so one must rely on either machinery (thrusters etc) or expertise - and usually both - to maneuver it.
I definitely think you are on the right track Richard:p

I remember the picture Will, and that boat could well fit the bill for such vessel.

And I agree that is about the minimal size for ocean passages.

I disagree that boats in excess of 12meter become too difficult to handle.
These boats here are not offered to the novice, they are clearly tagged as blue water vessels. We can assume that this clientele has some experience under their belt, if not, bad luck.

Nobody expects he can operate a executive jet with a basic amateur pilot license and 50hrs airtime, same is valid for boats and ships.

Thanks for the flowers! I know I am....

Regards
Richard

Willallison
09-24-2010, 10:27 AM
I disagree that boats in excess of 12meter become too difficult to handle.
These boats here are not offered to the novice, they are clearly tagged as blue water vessels. We can assume that this clientele has some experience under their belt, if not, bad luck.
Regards
Richard

No, No... I wasn't suggesting that they are difficult to handle - quite the opposite. That was the competition judges opinion(s). For the inexperienced, anything larger than a tender can be a scary proposition...
And apart from the physical need to get from one end of the boat to the other, there is no reason for a 20 metre boat to be any more difficult to handle than a 12 metre boat IMHO. And it is often the opposite, as the larger boat is often fitted with the equipment - hydraulic thrusters and the like - to make the job easier

marshmat
09-24-2010, 10:45 AM
Re. handling: My five-metre runabout can scare the s@#$ out of experienced small-boat guys when she's lightly loaded in a crosswind. Our town's sixty-metre car ferry can turn in its own length and be placed within thirty centimetres of a target by one man in any wind and sea condition our lake can generate. Size means very little where handling is concerned; hull design, propulsion and control systems mean a lot.

Tad, Will: I think the drawings that both of you have posted on here are a good reflection of what I hope will become the "new thing" in powerboats: long, efficient, not too tall, practical and elegant styling (none of this '97 Ford Taurus meets F-22 Raptor stuff you see at the boat shows).

A boat really ought to look the part for the role she plays. If she's a tug, she needs to portray raw strength and working practicality. If she's a racer, she ought to look sleek, clean and fast. If the boat's a dock queen, it needs to scream "there's an obscene amount of money invested in me". If she's a long-range expedition yacht, she should look elegant, classy, but with a no-nonsense practicality that says "this is what I am, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise". I think Tad's hitting pretty close to the mark with his last few posts on the PL series.

Milan
09-24-2010, 04:36 PM
… a clean sheet of paper and design the hull to be super fuel efficient (round bilges:) and we reduce the length to say 12m or 40ft with a maximum speed of 6 knots … much much more affordable, … comfortable motoring, an old salts boat …
my take on this "new" boat is that the hull MUST absolutely of modern design, very smooth round bilges….

Richard, forgive me, I’ll go slightly off the topic of you thread with this one, by looking at the possibilities for the “poor man’s passagemaker”.

Mannie, if you want cheap to build, supper fuel efficient boat, last thing you should do is to limit length. Round bilges are also not very important. Difference between wetted area of round or two chine bilges is very small. (For the cruising speeds of this boat, say 4 – 8 knots, wave making is much bigger part of resistance then friction).

What you do need is very low displacement / waterline length ratio. Easiest and cheapest way to achieve it is to build long, narrow hull with a sharp bow.

If it is a real passagmaker, able to go economically everywhere, I don’t think that gentleman’s yacht, (beautiful, I agree), would be optimal shape.

Sardine carrier or older generation life boat shape would be more appropriate for the task. I would also put rig on her. (I know, I know, we already concluded that sailing is not cheap. It is true for a modern, highly efficient rig. Smaller passage maker is other story – it will never sail to windward. If just auxiliary sails are needed, for reaching, broad reaching and running, then rig and sails can be very cheap. Perfect shape is not critical – lower aspect ratio short gaff sail would be OK. It is easy to handle and repair, has very simple gear, and long life).

I would suggest dimensions of about 20 meters long, 4 meters wide. Two masts of about 9 – 10 meters above deck .

Biggest saving would be in avoiding expensive nautical toys and luxuries, keeping everything simple, work-boat style. During voyaging, huge amount of fuel could be saved by careful route planning, making use of favourable currents and winds and motoring at slower revs.

In attachment, boat shape and rig type that would work well for this task, in my opinion.

dskira
09-24-2010, 05:29 PM
If it is a real passagmaker, able to go economically everywhere, I don’t think that gentleman’s yacht, (beautiful, I agree), would be optimal shape.


In mid Atlantic storm, I would like to be on the later and not on the former.
Not only it is beautiful as you said, but also a very good ship capable to take the right amount of cargo, like fuel, oil, water, grey water, black water, food, drinks, all the several tons needed for long and extended cruises. the space to take care of the engine with full headroom can be found almost only on relatively heavy hull, by the nature of the design.
I am of course talking of real offshore vessel with large spectrum of capability and range between 7000 to 9000 Nm.
A light vessel as attractive it is, lake of of volume to carry the cargo needed.
The sails are very attractive, and something perhaps can be blend on the design.
Taking some feature from the steam yacht era as an inspiration, perhaps.
But my main feature will be weight and draft. And keeping the CG as low as possible on a well balanced hull with a good weight repartition, to keep the antiroll device at the dealership where they belong.
Just some thoughts.
Daniel

dskira
09-24-2010, 05:31 PM
This is a search and rescue lifeboat from the 1970 perhaps transfromed for other purpose I think.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/47907d1285356949-perfect-passagemaker-style-within-genre-insulinde.jpeg

TeddyDiver
09-24-2010, 05:34 PM
looking at the possibilities for the “poor man’s passagemaker”.

To be honest.. my limits in this regard are around 33' LOA so obviously there's no place to bulk all the fuel for really long passages (not any island hopping in mind) so to achieve the range having sails is a necessity. And I do think we should put up another thread for this "vagabond" concept, it's a way too different compared to perfect one..

Tad
09-24-2010, 06:01 PM
To return to the styling focus of this thread.......

Styling that may appear to be elegant in a 74' size, long, low, and simple, may become rather boring at 40'. Most of the problem is that people don't get smaller as their boats shrink, therefore heights and (to some extent) beam remain constant......

In trying to incorporate a modern passagemaker style, with some features of the Gentleman's motoryacht.....I end up with more sole levels than I like......

And I agree that this is too small to be comfortable on longer passages, especially as you have to travel very slowly to gain the range. But such a vessel can be great for coastal passages of 1000 miles or so.

So we end up with ........

47909

Bounty Hunter
09-24-2010, 06:34 PM
the ocean 55 drew a good response from the crowd - personally i thought it had a cool, almost commercial look to it - any more development along those lines?

Easy Rider
09-24-2010, 06:50 PM
This thread has gone from style and beauty to engineering and seaworthyness .
I like your coastal cruiser TAD but a strange thing happens. When I look at the thumbnail the sheer line looks awkward but click on the thumnail and w a bigger image it looks fine. ??
dskira,
As for beauty that rescue/lifeboat is a looser but for it's size is almost certainly a good passagemaker.
I voted for the gentleman's yacht but I like the Fantail Steamer better.
I think most voted for what they like or prefer rather than the best design relative to art and beauty.

Easy Rider

Milan
09-24-2010, 07:05 PM
This is a search and rescue lifeboat from the 1970 perhaps transfromed for other purpose I think...

She was built during 1920’s, for Dutch lifeboat organization. She was first, relatively big, (about 20 meters), steel – self righting ship at the time, stayed in active duty until mid 1960’s.

… my limits in this regard are around 33' LOA …

Length is cheap. With slightly bigger budget you can build 15 m LOA, 3 m beam. Money for the longer hull would quickly return from reduced fuel consumption.

… And I do think we should put up another thread for this "vagabond" concept, it's a way too different compared to perfect one..

Yes, you are right. I will start a new thread.

Daniel, Easy Rider, I don’t doubt offshore abilities of gentleman yacht in the size and price range Richard has in mind. It is different with a smaller, CHEAP passagemaker however – it needs some sails and it can’t be done with a superstructure of gentleman’s yacht.

pool
09-24-2010, 07:21 PM
I voted for the gentleman's yacht but I like the Fantail Steamer better.
Easy Rider
For coastal cruising, I always admired the Fantail vessels of the Pacific Northwest. Particularly the rugged look of those built for commercial use, like survey or patrol work in BC and Alaska, before WWII.

apex1
09-24-2010, 07:57 PM
This thread has gone from style and beauty to engineering and seaworthyness .

TRUE!
I voted for the gentleman's yacht but I like the Fantail Steamer better.
I think most voted for what they like or prefer rather than the best design relative to art and beauty.
Easy Rider

That was the question Easy,

which style do you like most. Nothing else.

And I am in the business for long enough to know what sells in the end. It is not the "coming home rigg" or other hidden features, it is the styling of the vessel.

Now that we have found what suits the market best, we have to focus on the best way to make all the required capabilities come true.

And for a good reason I opened 4 threads to discuss the different trades we have to cope with. (there will be one more soon)

Regards
Richard

dskira
09-24-2010, 08:08 PM
She was built during 1920’s, for Dutch lifeboat organization. She was first, relatively big, (about 20 meters), steel – self righting ship at the time, stayed in active duty until mid 1960’s. .

Are you sure of the 1920? Perhaps the hull, but the round edge of the deck was implemented in the sixties for the lifeboat, and surely the super are not from that date. But she can had a makeover during her life.
But I can be wrong. If you have more info's, I will be please to read about.
I am a fan of old vessel of any kind, and my curiosity as no limit.
She still quite a site.
Anyway thank you for posting the picture.

Daniel

apex1
09-24-2010, 08:11 PM
[QUOTE]Richard, forgive me, I’ll go slightly off the topic of you thread with this one, by looking at the possibilities for the “poor man’s passagemaker”.

Ok, for this time.;)
..............(For the cruising speeds of this boat, say 4 – 8 knots, wave making is much bigger part of resistance then friction).

Thats far below our target speed here! We do much better.

If it is a real passagmaker, able to go economically everywhere, I don’t think that gentleman’s yacht, (beautiful, I agree), would be optimal shape.

You will be impressed how economical that boat comes out! Of course other lines can be made even more stingy on the fuel, but in relation to her volume and accommodation she is outstanding economical to run, and sure will outperform ALL other designs discussed here.

But we are completely on the wrong thread here!

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-iii-propulsion-34334.html
there we are at home with this sort of discussion.

Regards
Richard

apex1
09-24-2010, 08:15 PM
Are you sure of the 1920? Perhaps the hull, but the round edge of the deck was implemented in the sixties for the lifeboat, and surely the super are not from that date. But she can had a makeover during her life.
But I can be wrong. If you have more info's, I will be please to read about.
I am a fan of old vessel of any kind, and my curiosity as no limit.
She still quite a site.
Anyway thank you for posting the picture.
Daniel

Theodor Heuss 1957

http://www.deutsches-museum.de/uploads/pics/018_theo_heuss_600_01.jpg

dskira
09-24-2010, 08:33 PM
A&R designed and built if I remember well.
Beautiful, so purposeful.
Daniel

apex1
09-24-2010, 08:40 PM
A&R design and built if I remember well.
Beautiful, so purposeful.
Daniel

No, this was "Schweers Bardenfleth" (went out of business a few years ago after building "Senses"), don´t remember the designer.

But as far as I know she was the first self righting of her kind. Her later sisters have proven to which extend, surviving inversed grounding in heavy ground seas with minor damage.

purposeful, that is it.

Willallison
09-24-2010, 09:09 PM
Now that we have found what suits the market best, we have to focus on the best way to make all the required capabilities come true.

Regards
Richard

Hmmm - but do you think we have, really?
A poll of just 68 people is hardly what one would call comprehensive market research. Especially when you factor in the 'kind' of people who contributed to it. We are hardly what I would imagine to be representative of the passagemaler buying public...

Milan
09-24-2010, 09:11 PM
Are you sure of the 1920?

Yes, she was built in 1927, self righting. She saved 332 people during almost forty years of active duty. She is 18.8 meter long, 4.05 meter wide, draft 1.45 m, displacement 50 ton, 2 six cylinder Gleniffer diesel engines.

Here are few photos. I will search more info.

[QUOTE=apex1;401828] … (4 – 8 knots) Thats far below our target speed here! We do much better. [QUOTE]

I know, but if you want to minimize fuel consumption slower speed could be acceptable. Mannie was talking about power boat for old salts after all. More or less constant speed of around 6 – 7 knots is fast for a cruising sailor.

Regards,
Milan

Angélique
09-24-2010, 09:23 PM
Theodor Heuss 1957 .... But as far as I know she was the first self righting of her kind.

‘Insulinde’ (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulinde_(reddingboot)) (posted here by Milan) was self righting since 1927 (year of build).

L 18.8 m - B 4.05 m - D 1.45 m - Displ. 50 ton.

Her, also self righting, sister ‘Neeltje Jacoba’ (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neeltje_Jacoba) was build in 1929.

Here more info in Dutch about ‘Insulinde’ (http://www.dorusrijkers.nl/reddingboten/rb.php?rb_nr=3) (1927 - 1969) and ‘Neeltje Jacoba’ (http://www.dorusrijkers.nl/reddingboten/rb.php?rb_nr=6) (1930 - 1969) . . . (years in service)

This thread is in real danger of getting an 'old rescue lifeboat thread' ... in that case the Passagemaker will be OT here . . :D

So, if you don't like this info here, no problem to remove this post . . :)

Good Luck!
Angel

PS - Cross posted with Milan.

View Full Version : The perfect Passagemaker? (style within this genre)