Harley 42'

[Guest]

Can anyone tell me information about the Harley 42' with cat 3126 with 420 hp surface drives number 8's. Any information about Harley boats I would like to know.

[67-LS1]

I've seen a few for sale on Yachtworld.com. I think they had the old 3208 Cats. Seems like a big heavy boat for it's size. I like them because they have so much cockpit space as opposed to your normal "penis boat". I also wonder how thewy perform with the Arneson's.
Dennis

[CaptPPan]

Hi,
I own a 27' Harley Center Console with a fixed surface drive. When I bought the boat I went to Florida and Met Howard Harley the builder, you may want to contact him also If you have questions about the boat your looking at. Unfortunately my boat is a one of a kind and I'm still working through some designe problems but I love the boat. The kevlar hull is solid but he's alittle lacking when it comes to finish work.
I've seen a few Harleys on BoatTrader.com. you may want to check there for price as well.

[S. Stoylen]

Hi
I have a 42 Harley, with ASD-8's and Merlin 450 hp engines.
Boat is very light, only 13000# empty!
Handles like you wouldn't believe with the Arnesons
Of course, as some other guy mentioned, finish isn't the best.
Contact me for questions.

[Steve H]

Hello,

I also own a 42 Harley. It is powered by 415 hp gas engines with fixed surface drives. The drives are very, very basic. Just twin shafts going out the transom to extremely rugged struts with rudders behind them. The hull is built with a notch in the rear to accomodate the struts. The rudders are built on large brackets bolted to the rear transom. The handling below 40mph is great. Gets to be a handfull past 45mph, it will top out at 50mph if loaded light. It will bow steer at higher speeds, I think this is caused from 10 degree down angle of prop shafts lifting the stern. Boat was originally rigged with diesels. The lighter gas engines are letting the stern come up.

I've read quite a few negative comments on surface drives on this site. I admet that there is a learning curve as far as dock handling is concerned, but other than that I love em. Especially for a larger boat. I will get a pic up of the shfts props etc soon.

It weighs right at 14,000lbs dry according to nearby truck scales. I am more than satisfied with the current performance considering the size and weight. I will probably re power to diesels in a couple of years to increase the range. It will hold over 800 gallons of fuel. I think diesels would get me from San Diego to Cabo with out stopping for fuel, or maybe not. Right now I burn about 35 gph while running about 35mph. I think Diesels should burn about half of that.

Anyway, great site, hope to hear from any other Harley owners with performance numbers gas or diesel. Or anyone else.

Steve H

[Steve H]

This is the business end

[Lee Williams]

I recently installed 420 hp 3126 cats w/ arneson #8'S in a 42' Harley. Top speed 45 knot, cruise 38 knot @ about 1.2 mpg.

[Steve H]

1.2 MPG? I was hoping it would be better than than that. I just installed Floscan fuel flow meters. I am getting .9 mpg lightly loaded according to the new gauges that are interfaced with a GPS. Got any pics og your engines and drives.

Steve H

[Lee Williams]

I will post some pics of engines & drives on the 42' Harley in a few weeks. Boat is currently on Chesapeake Bay running some supplies to an island construction site. The 1.2 mpg is about as good as it gets (I think). I have had boat for 15 years, 3 yr with 330 hp Merlin Diesels, 10 yr with Cat 3116 350 hp & 2 yr with Cat 3126 420 hp.

[capnvette]

42' Harley For Sale / 3126 Cats / Custom Aluminum, Vinyl And Stratoglass Mid-section Enclosure / Setup as fish/dive boat / $135k Obo

[martin@kroesche]

I have a Halrey 46 which is almost copletely remodeled. We have gutted the boat and have completed the interior up to the helm station. It had 485hp DD's which i sold. I am adding 440hp yanmars....heres the deal...with the computer model i should be able to get close to 2miles per gallon at certian rpms....the DD ran 1800rpm at 32knots burning about the sam 32 gph, the yanmars weigh 3000lbs less with the same hp, accordingly it should be 2600rpms at 38knots burning, according to yanmar, 11gph, or 22 gph at 38knots. this is all determinate on the gear ratio, the prop etc. I searched every engine and the yanmar seems to be the best current fit. any thoughts?
I will change the props from the 3 blade clovers to 6 blade cleavers..any thoughts on that? I m looking for any input on my harley that will help my complete rebuild. I think that Howard Harley has a lot of problems but this boat will be an entire different machine when its done. The top end will easily reach 50 knots.

[Steve H]

Wow, old tread from the dead. What props are you running currently? I think that on larger boats the more blades the better. I've alway wanted to repower with Yanmars but it does'nt pencil out for me. I just installed a couple of Arnesons and pitched the fixed surface drive stuff. I have only ran it about an hour so far.I did not get much more high end but no more bow steer at high speeds. It was alot of work, but happy with results.
Did you just buy that boat? What is the difference betwenn the 42 and 46. Where is it longer? Cockpit, or cabin?

Steve H

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
I bought this boat in 2000. A friend of mine had it two years prior and bought it from the orginal owner. It was sold in 1990, custom built for a man in Freeport, Texas. He wanted the oversized motors so DD671-JT's were installed with the SP1200 Arneson drives. You can see pictures of my boat on yachttrader, it is the white boat. it is currently not for sale but the broker has not taken it down. the pictures are prior to the complete remodel. My boat, differn than yours, is set up for fishing with a tower and fighting chair.

After I bought the boat in 2000 i sent to the factory, Howard Harley, which was quite and adventure. I became completely famiiar with every aspect of the boat, end to end. Even though Howard is a complete idiot, i am stll a big fan of the boat hull, layout and design. The finish out has always been poor. Howard told me he built 6 of the 46 versions, there is the only other one i have ever seen on the intenet for sale in Fla. To answer your question, the additional lenght is in the cockpit. I have a trasom door and a glassed in platorm.

Recently I was invited on tour of the Fountain Facotry with Reggie Fountain. I have a great interst in fountain boat and currently own a center console fishing version(to hold me over during the remodel). What I realized is the simiarities of the boats. Fountain now sells, there state of the art boats, with yanmar and arneson drives. I will add more later.

Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Additional comments; The Harley has almost the same footprint as the newer boats in its class. With respect to your comments about the props....I had three blade 24" 23 pitch clovers. This created what surface drives call, "prop slap" or where the surface area of the prop slaps the water at higher rotation creating a vibration, sometimes severe. Since the Yanmars turn more RPM's this would be a real problem...this is why we will go to a 6 blade cleaver, the recommended prop. In my opinion, the best drive system for these types of boats is the Power Vent system. This effectivly tucks the props up in the hull....go to donsmithpowerboats.com or powervent .com and watch the videos...it is incredible. they back it up on the beach and drive it off, on a 45foot boat. There is a gentleman in Florida that has a 60 Harley, same design, 14' beam, 60 plus lenght. He added the power vent instead of the arnesons. You can see a picture of that Harley on the donsmith web site under powervents, other boats area. As far as cost of the yanmar, well, just look at what any comparable boat to yours cost.....they start in the 500's range new an only go up. The arnesons had a constant problem with seapage into the drive, related to leaving it in the water a long time. Did you buy new
drives or were they used? which model? I am sending mine to the factory for a rebuild and hopefull will solve my seal problem when we re-install them.

Please let me know any adverse or problematic situations you have encounted so that i an remodel around or repair it at this point.

Martin

[Steve H]

Martin


I have talked to Howard on the phone. He is a very interesting guy to say the least.

you can see from the pic in my earlier post that I had fixed surface drives prior to installing the Arnesons. This is very similar to the Power Vent System. I can tell you that my boat would not handle like the one in the video on the beach. Maybe it took them 20 tries to get that shot?
You are right about the cost of new boats vs updating mine to newer power. But I just don't use mine enough to justify spending 100,000 dollars on it and still have the same boat!
I think any drive will seep some if left in the water long enough. I think don't think that arnesons are any worse than others. Just make sure you haul it at least once a year and change all drive fluids. that will give you an indication of seepage before it has a chance to ruin anything.
I bought used drives. I made two good ones aout of three. Then I just purchased another used one that looks near new. I will keep it as a spare. They are the old 1720 drive. It is very similar to the ASD6. Same rating. I have not had any big problems as of yet. Other than the amount of work it took. I moved the engines aft about 18" at the same time. Also did a bunch of re rigging. The gears have a 10 degree down angle. I had to wedge the transom the get the correct shaft alignment. Otherwise it was a straight forward job that most people with reasonable skills could accomplish. I have only put about one hour of run time on the boat since to drives were installed. So I don't have much to report there except so far so good. very happy with the dock handling when compared to the old stuff. The bow steer at high speeds has disappeared. These were my main goals.
I have totally refurbished this boat over the last five years. New cabin, paint, and now drives and re rigged the engine room. I hope to put some serious hours on it this year! I will include a few pics of "The Project" or the effin boat as my wife calls it.

Steve Hixson

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
The interior looks great. I know the feeling about the "project" or the "effin" project. I catch the same static. A friend of mine who owns a jet aircraft interior shop agreed to do my interior...ill send pictures when its done. He said we have another week. We followed the interior design used my Fountain on its 47 Lightning..go to to the fountain site and look at the 47 interior, it is almost exactly the same size. We used honeycomb removeable panels which weigh nothing. You can pick up an 8 foot section with one hand. We glassed in and expaned the bathroom, glassed in the center hatch and placed a round flush mount(deck) hatches for the front and rear. (lightning). We are at the cabin door and designing the helm station and cockpit area. We will have two air-conditioners, one for the cabin, and one for the helm area (with 360 degrees curtains). In Texas, its hot all year so this will be a nice addition, under the hard top. I want to glass in the windshield and raise the helm station so it is up, not in a pit like currently. We also will improve the top drive with instruments and guages..like a 2nd station GPS. I am going to Miami next week to look at the electic system options, replacing the generator with a state of the art inverter system. This will be interesting.(Bert Kehren, of Miami, owns 2 Harleys and installed the inverter system on his 42, wrote and article in Power & Motoryacht magazine) With the cabin and re-power I should be removing about 2 tons off the boat.

The power vent drive, unlike a traditional fixed surface drive, is flush mounted into the transom keel, like a seadoo jet drive. The lowest and exposed point of the drive is the keel pad and transom. When i first saw this I flew to the DonSmith(Powervent) factory to see it in person. Don Smith took me on a boat ride and I can asure you, what you saw on those videios is prescisly what it does, first hand. I am not a salesman for PV, but it is incredible.(however, i do not know how the bow steer effect is in the harley) In fact, the don smith boat is the best overall built in its class, hands down. When i went there they offered to build me one for 299k, which i thought was a lot and i already owend the Harley. Now, he ask 499k and there are two used ones on the internet asking 379k, used. Did you look at my boat on the internet? Your drives look like they are situated slightly farther apart then mine..maybe its just the angle of the picture. Send more pictures of your interior and exterior...it looks great and of the 20 or so Harleys I have personally seeen, it appears to be the best one. Thanks for the info and pictures, it is good to find another H-effin-nut.....Regards-Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
The interior looks great. I know the feeling about the "project" or the "effin" project. I catch the same static. A friend of mine who owns a jet aircraft interior shop agreed to do my interior...ill send pictures when its done. He said we have another week. We followed the interior design used my Fountain on its 47 Lightning..go to to the fountain site and look at the 47 interior, it is almost exactly the same size. We used honeycomb removeable panels which weigh nothing. You can pick up an 8 foot section with one hand. We glassed in and expaned the bathroom, glassed in the center hatch and placed a round flush mount(deck) hatches for the front and rear. (lightning). We are at the cabin door and designing the helm station and cockpit area. We will have two air-conditioners, one for the cabin, and one for the helm area (with 360 degrees curtains). In Texas, its hot all year so this will be a nice addition, under the hard top. I want to glass in the windshield and raise the helm station so it is up, not in a pit like currently. We also will improve the top drive with instruments and guages..like a 2nd station GPS. I am going to Miami next week to look at the electic system options, replacing the generator with a state of the art inverter system. This will be interesting.(Bert Kehren, of Miami, owns 2 Harleys and installed the inverter system on his 42, wrote and article in Power & Motoryacht magazine) With the cabin and re-power I should be removing about 2 tons off the boat.

The power vent drive, unlike a traditional fixed surface drive, is flush mounted into the transom keel, like a seadoo jet drive. The lowest and exposed point of the drive is the keel pad and transom. When i first saw this I flew to the DonSmith(Powervent) factory to see it in person. Don Smith took me on a boat ride and I can asure you, what you saw on those videios is prescisly what it does, first hand. I am not a salesman for PV, but it is incredible.(however, i do not know how the bow steer effect is in the harley) In fact, the don smith boat is the best overall built in its class, hands down. When i went there they offered to build me one for 299k, which i thought was a lot and i already owend the Harley. Now, he ask 499k and there are two used ones on the internet asking 379k, used. Did you look at my boat on the internet? Your drives look like they are situated slightly farther apart then mine..maybe its just the angle of the picture. Send more pictures of your interior and exterior...it looks great and of the 20 or so Harleys I have personally seeen, it appears to be the best one. Thanks for the info and pictures, it is good to find another H-effin-nut.....Regards-Martin

[Steve H]

I did all the interior my self, except when a sewing machine was needed for cushions and stuff. It was a learning experiance. I hired local kids to do the tear out. That was not easy. Harley must have used gallons of 5200 . Used a heat gun, very sharp chisels and big hammers and pry bars to get everything out of the cabin. I added alot more teak than it had before. Finished it with automotive clear. Very happy with the look.
Sounds like you are doing alot more to yours than i did. I would like to see some pics as you get along in your project.
I am also looking for an electronics package. I am leaning towards a Garmin Radar/ chartplotter. I like the low profile antenna and the video input so I can have a camera in my engine room.
I currenlty have a 1500W heart/Interface inverter and a Kohler 4.0 genset. I think it is the perfect set up. Use the inverter for small stuff, then fire up the gen if I need to run A/C or electric heat.
So are you going with the Arensons or the Power Vent? yes I did take a peek at your boat on the internet. It looks good setting on the water. Especially with the tower. You are right about the distance betwwen the drives on my boat. They are on 42" centers. This boat was rigged with triple diesels when new. Then converted to twin gas. The boat will not turn real sharp at speed unless you drop the inside tab during the turn.
All of the Harleys that I have seen were pretty rough. These boats are built like a brick outhouse, but the rigging and finish leaves alot to be desired. These are the issues that I have been working on. Here are a few more pics. The new logo was inspired by Magnum's Logo.It is very similiar to the Harley Logo but cleaner. I had a guy take that and turn into something I liked. It is chrome with a red outline. I think it contrasts the navy blue perfectly.

Steve H

Steve H

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Your boat looks great. It's exciting to see it and the way it turned out. I think you did Harley a favor by enhancing the logo...that looks great. I was thinking that your bow steer might have been partially a result of the position of your drives(the width). My boat has never really had a bow steer problem but my application, off shore fishing, has not required me to do much performacne driving as you would in a cruiser boat. I am going to visit my boat soon and I will attach ongoing pictures. We are in the final stage of decision making for the gears, the debate being the reduction ratio, 1.5 to 1 as the former and possibly 1.75 to 1 with the higher rpm yanmars. With respect to the electronics, the best avaviable is the garmin interfacing nav net system. They have designred it so tjat all of your equipment interacts. This is probally what ill use, i have always been a Garmin fan and the boat currentyl has the 2010 color, Furuno sounder and 24nm radar with the array boom. With the nav net i think i will be able to cosolidate and interface these machines. It seems like the more time goes by the better the electronics and cheaper they get. Take care and keep me updated....ill attach pictures soon. Thanks for all your info and thanks for sharing. martin@padredevelopment.com

[Steve H]

Hey Martin,

how's the boat coming?

Stebe H

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Thanks for asking. Its coming slowly but surely, and we are being very meticulous about every detail. I typed you a long detailed thread and it was lost. I haven't had the easiest time with this site, I can not figure out how to attach thumbnail pictures past the manage attachments area! When I went there for pictures it lost the thread...so I'm tired and ill send you info tomorrow. I'm glad your interested and I want to send you pictures....
Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Here are some before and after pictures, I think. I have them in managed attachments, I hope they will add to the thread. Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Here is a description of the pictures. 1. Engine Room, completely glassed, two shelves, bulkheads will have stainless steel mesh, top shelve will have northern lights gen, left and right will be the racors. lower shelve will have 60gal fresh water and battery trays on the left and right side of the compartment. 2nd picture is of the new flush mount hatches, we removed 3 bulky square ones and replaced them with 2 flush mount rounds. 3rd is the profile pre-refurb. 4th is the old cabin, cluttered but still nice. 5th is the new galley, it is noiw installed and the interior is 90% complete. I will attach updated pictures. they are installing the motors currently. Martin

[Steve H]

Martin


Looks Awsome, I really like the round hatches.

I hope that galley fits through the door!

I am looking forward to hearing your performance and fuel burn numbers.

Keep the pics coming

Steve

[john2153]

I worked at Harley Boats for a while in Barstow Fl, and agree that howard is a real goof, who took over the business from his dad who started as a manufacture of float plane equipment. I would answer any questions if you care to write. John molly6rock@yahoo.com

[Steve H]

Martin,

Here are a couple pics taken before the hatches were installed. I was almost done with the final rigging. Lot easier to work on with the hatches off! notice how far apart the center stringers are. This boat was rigged for triple diesels when new. I fantisize occasionally about triple 315hp Yanmar or 6BT series cummins. I just happen to have a extra Arneson Drive on a shelf. Back to reality. These motors are in great shape. I will run them for awhile.

Steve

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Your deck and cockpit look clean. You have done a great job with your Harley. I am getting close to completion. this has been almost a two year process. They have built and added the stainless steel engine mounts, the generator and water tank. I had problems with the rebuilds on my drives(ASD10 or SP1200) I have no found out that this is the same drive by Great Lakes Power in Mich.

Anyway, in my desperation I called Howard and he was able to help me find new drives. I simply have to put in writing that he has helped me out...so there, I said it. We have new(used) drives, I have an extra set of which one is completely rebuilt for a spare. The Yanmars are going in over the next ten days, we will need another week of rigging and then we splash. There is too much going on at this point to list, everything is new, finally.

in other exciting news I added spell checker so future post do not resemble previous. I am attempting to attach two pictures of a friends 60Harley w/ power vent. He has working on this boat longer than I have been on mine. This is an exceptional boat and should have unbelievable performance. Ill take current pictures of my rig and post those at a later date. Regrds, Martin

[buckknekkid]

Steve , what paint did you use on the cockpit?

[Steve H]

Martin,

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to more pictures. I love the look of that 60' Harley! I would love to own it!

Bukneked,

It is a two part auto paint. I can't remember the brand. I mixed in some texture and mixed the color my self. It is a very light gray.

Thanks,

Steve H

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Here are some more pictures I promised. We now have all of the parts and are in the process of assembly. I asked the shop if we were going to drop in the motors soon and he said, "No, we are going to set them in real gently next week". Ill send more but its really coming together, finally. Ill attach the pictures and describe them in the next thread. Regards-Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Top Left: Fuel transfer w/valves-can send fuel any direction and we added a extension line to either suck fuel from a barrel or exterior tank or transfer it to a boat in need. The fuel fills are 3" so there is no back pressure and the fills are on the floor under the seating....no spills at the marina-has catch tray.
Top Center: Added shelfs, top generator w/ racors left and right.
Top Right: Oil Transfer system, stainless.
Bottom: Overview of engine room with stainless mounts.

[buckknekkid]

just send me over that little shrink wrapped package and I'll send you a slightly used Onan 6.5 and the title to a bridge in NY.:D Looks really neat and clean in the rigging dept.

[martin@kroesche]

Thanks for the comment. Later on I am going to attach photos the two pallets of junk that came out of the engine room and was not necessary. We are spending a lot of time and effort but I think at the end of the day it will be worth it. Thanks Again Martin

[buckknekkid]

I just took three truckloads in my Suburban, Sometimes it seems like buying a new hull is a lot easier. we were building center consoles in the 90's in less time than it took to refit the cockpit of my trojan

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Here are some updated pictures of the project. We are going to splash tomorrow for an initial run. We are still rigging. I have added electronics and numerous other items to update. I am attaching a side view, the new helm and the drives. I will have a final set of the boat, interior as well in the next couple weeks.

Regards,

Martin

[buckknekkid]

Bloody Gorgeous, :D

[john2153]

looking forward to pictures of the motors, gen, and rigging, so far was such an improvment over the factory setup. Guess its fishing time soon. Just got a 27 ft Donzi CC, and now ready to start my fishing boat....John

[martin@kroesche]

Here are some updated pictures. One is the profile of the boat at the shop, another at a South Padre Island Fishing Tournament, resting at a rent house after a day of fishing. Engine Room, logos and a picture of a rooster tail. Look in the backgound and you can see the boats I was passing up. I passed 28 boats on the way in from 40miles out.

[martin@kroesche]

Here a few more pics.

[buckknekkid]

Here a few more pics.

YOURE BREAKIN MY HEART!!!! A ll I stared at today was a school of Carp. I didnt even bother to put the lines in.:cool:

[martin@kroesche]

Sorry to break your heart...I'm glad you like the pics. People who don't fish here (in Texas) have no idea the caliber of fishing we have....all the bills, dorado, wahoo, all the rig species, black and yellowfin tuna, etc..... We have had extremely successful trips over the last year and caught a released a 500 lb blue earlier in the year. I noticed you are close to Pompano Beach Florida so im not feeling to sorry for you! Regards Martin

[buckknekkid]

florida is gettting fished out

[Steve H]

Martin,

Congratulations on finally splashing your boat. Looks like you are getting your moneys worth already.

What kind of numbers are you getting?


Dying to know.

Steve

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
There you are! Well, the numbers are not what I wanted or expected but I'm not done. As with everything I do in life I over anticipated the good! While the numbers are good, I am going to improve them this winter. I have a top seppd of 40 knots and a cruise of 36 knots. I am burning 1.0 to 1.2 mpg. The problem I have is the propellers. I am going to take the boat to Florida this January and have a professional shop build a set for this application. I am not turning enough RPM's and loading the engines at cruise. I have done all I can do locally. I need a set of 4/5 blade cleavers. My understanding is unloading the props at cruise will significantly decrease my fuel burn and allow me to develop full RPM's increasing my top end. My modified goals are now;
45 knots top end, 38 knot cruise 1.5 mpg. Keeping in mind this is a 47'loa boat with a tower, outriggers, fighting chair, full set of curtains and lots of additional gear. Thanks for the post and ill keep you updated. By the way
last Sunday we caught a blue Marlin offshore of Padre Island. There still out there. Take Care Steve. Martin

[Steve H]

Awsome stuff you got going. What props are you running now? I think those engines should spin up to 2800? What is your current weight? Gear ratio? I am not a diesel expert, but I do know that diesels hate being overloaded. Even more so than a gas engine.

Beautiful place to rent, where is that at? I wouldn't mind dragging my big turd down your way for a month of fishing. My wife might even come if I have a decent place to stay.

Steve Hixson

[pizzacutter]

glad to see that there are a few out there who fish the old harleys. we have a 1987 42' that gets a lot of fish time in maryland and florida. with the right modifications it makes for a great fishing machine and can get to & from the canyons faster than most. we use caterpillar 3126ta (420hp) with arneson #8drives, gear ratio is 1.15 to 1. top speed is about 45 knots (2850rpm) & cruise is about 38 knots (2300rpm). what is the rpms on the yanmar engines?

[buckknekkid]

you must be trolling for WAHOO's at that speed. You could just pull up beside one and ask him to jump in.:P

[Steve H]

glad to see that there are a few out there who fish the old harleys. we have a 1987 42' that gets a lot of fish time in maryland and florida. with the right modifications it makes for a great fishing machine and can get to & from the canyons faster than most. we use caterpillar 3126ta (420hp) with arneson #8drives, gear ratio is 1.15 to 1. top speed is about 45 knots (2850rpm) & cruise is about 38 knots (2300rpm). what is the rpms on the yanmar engines?


Hey Pizza, Welcome to the board!

It is very hard to find other Harley owners. I would love to see some pictures of your boat including engine room. I have been thinking of repowering to diesel. Just don't know if I want to commit to such a big project. I would do most of the work myself. Then be married to this boat for the long term.

I have considered CAT power. There are alot of those 3126TA engine packages at an afforable price out there if you look.

Questions:

Engine hours?
Any big engine issues so far?
Diameter, pitch, # of blades, brand and material of props?
Fuel burn at 38 knot cruise?
Trans make and model?

Thanks,

Steve

[pizzacutter]

steve,
i had troble posting the photos, if you wish to see them e-mail my assistant Susan at dominosusan@comcast.net and she can send them to you. one shows the cat engines. they fit very nice and are easy to work on. this is my second set. the first had 350hp each. I ran them almost 4000 hours and still sold them for 1/2 what i paid new. these are 420hp each, installed in 2003 now have 600 hours. no problems at all, maybe tighten a belt once in a while, thats it. the cats are reasonably priced compared to others. i paid under $40,000 for the pair including 5 year warranty. the trans. are twin disc #5061 and came from the cat dealer. current props are nibral 20x25 4 blade custom made by John Rose in Florida with advice from Ken martin in Canada and then fine tuned by a local guy who is real good with surface drives. i have used all types of props over the years including ss cleaver (see photo) with very little change. it seems that once you achieve the correct rpm and eliminate vibration the results are about the same with the $9,000 cleavers or the $3,500 4 blades. this current set gives great cruise, ok on top end and it does not matter if i am loaded with 250 gal fuel, 6 persons and gear, or low fuel and 2 persons, performance remains good. as far as fuel consumption it is difficult to get much over 1 mpg, maybe 1.2 if you cruise slow but i don't like to do that. we run them hard. including the original merlin engines and 2 sets of cats we are at about 5,000 hours total, plus thousands of miles by trailer (md. to fl.). it seems like it took a million man hours to put this rig in the shape it is in, (much more time in fiberglass work than mechanicals) but it is pretty tough and reliable now. we get a lot of use from the boat almost all 12 months of the year with only minor maintenance now. Good luck with your re-power decsion. if you use the boat a lot the diesels are the only way to go, they like to be run hard. if you have more questions post them up. i am looking for some more photos from a big re-furb in 1994. i'll post them if i find them.

[Steve H]

what type of fiberglass work was needed?
Have you weighed it?

[pizzacutter]

the fiberglass and structural improvements done to this boat are quite extensive. i'll try to make a long (and expensive) story as short as possible. once the boat was properly rigged with reliable cat engines in the early 1990's we started to run 60 miles each way to fishing grounds, somtimes 3-4 times a week. after encountering foul weather a few times we started to notice structural failures thru-out. ruptured fuel tanks, cracked flooring, and then the big one, the entire bottom laminate began to peel off. after consulting with some experts i ended up hiring a naval architect with knowledge in these type vessels (he had designed intrepids). he recommended a complete gutting of the cabin and engine room including tanks, engines, drives, etc. we actually took a chain saw to the cabin sofas until we were down to the bare hull. then a complete set of stringer/frames were built from the bow back to the engine room, including a strong "ring frame" just forward of the galley cabinets to reinforce the entire system. then the boat was flipped upside down and placed back on the trailer(see photo). we then spent a month or more removing poorly laminated f'glass and covering the entire bottom with 2 heavy coats of epoxy and cloth. then we flipped it back over and went into a lenghty re-install of all machinery & hardware improving the workmanship in any area we could. it is much stiffer now and probably heavier. it gets weighed frequently as it is on a crane 2-3 times a year that has a computer scale (the lifting device weight must be deducted from the total lift weight, along with fuel, etc.) i often ask the crane operator to give me the weights and he does, but honestly i've never made accurate notes. my best guess is between 16,000-18,000lbs dry but i might be off by a bit. hope that the description of the work doesn't scare the h out of you but that is what we actually did, plus we have done minor/major improvements to the 1994 job on & off during the last 12 years. i would point out that given the heavy use that we dish out i think any vessel would have required some of the repairs & upgrades done, but having started out with a harley made the ordeal even worse. the good news... my son & i use the boat a lot and we really like the finished product (the 5,000 hours of use include some real good times) hope this info is helpful & you are able to retrieve some photos

[martin@kroesche]

Steve/Pizza Cutter:
Greetings all. Sorry I have been slow to respond. Here are my numbers;

(2) 440hp Yanmars Diesels
Twin Disc 2.0 reduction(this was a mistake)
23.5" diameter/40 pitch 3 blade
ASD10 Arneson Surface Drives
boat wet/rigged 20,500lbs dry weight 18,000
47' L.O.A.

Max RPM Engine- 3500
Cruise RPM 2900 (per specs-10-12 gph)

Current status
Max RPM drive down 3100
Cruise RPM 2900 speed 36/38knots 16gph

The first mistake was taking the recommendation of the factory and using the 2.0 reduction v. the 1.50 prior. The factory concern is that the DD671TI485hp developed 1100lbs torque, the Yanmar 440hp develop 700. However, we dropped a net 4000lbs on the refit which in my opinion offset the reduced torque.

The factory guys said w/40 pitch props it will not come out of the water....they were making bets on the first sea trial, but I was right, it hopped out like a triple engine outboard. They were floored. At that point, I knew we had too much gear. They refused to back down from their recommendation or provide any support in changing to a 1.5 reduction.

So now the factory is insisting on 4/5 blade cleavers, rolla, which were quoted to me for around 14k each...yeah right. The Arneson guru in Miami recommended a prop shop who can manufacture a new set for around 5k, for both. This is where I want to take the boat so it can be spec'd out.

My goal is to unload the engines at cruise and reduce consumption, to develop max rpm and increase top end.

I am married to this project. Before I started the Harley refurb I found a 2004 Fountain 48 triple Yanmar cruiser for around 350k, I figured 50k for a conversion to a S/F, or around 400k total. I budgeted a fraction of that for the Harley and have spent twice what I budgeted. I am an owner!

Anyway, I am still adding stuff, cockpit a/c/heater, infrared night vision system and some other fun stuff. Ill fish this year and then I want to refit the cockpit seating,tower and windshield area. NEVER ENDS!!!!!! Should have bought the 04 Cruiser.

Thanks for the post, I enjoy reading them and ill keep you up to speed on my developments, please do the same on your end.

Regards to All,

Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Steve/PizzaCutter:
I forgot to mention, I had extensive fiberglass work during the refurb-i had experts check the structure which was/is perfect. I took the cabin and tank area down to the hull, replaced and reinforced the stringers to the front, added substantial ribbing and glassed in the floors and cabinets. There was some cracking and very thin spots, Howard had used coring material which was about 1" thick for the stringer. Steve, if you ever start using your boat in rough seas you might have to get into that, mine was extensive but not as severe as pizza cutter's. If you don't hit rough seas, your probably fine.

Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
We live on N. Padre Island, a barrier island on the central Texas coast. If you make it down here I'm sure we can find you and your wife a nice place to stay on the water....for the boat. We have great weather(except for today) and offshore fish,bay fish year round. So, if your serious let me know.
martin@padredevelopment.com www.padredevelopment.com


Regards,

Martin

[pizzacutter]

martin,
sorry to hear about the tranny problems. when i switched to 420hp (from350hp) i had the chance to use a 1.5to1 ratio but i stuck with 1.15to1 because that's what the 350hp's had and i thought it went ok-40 knot top, cruise 33 knots. when it came time for props on the 420's i tried a few sets from pacific surface drives. one set was 5 blade ss cleavers (used) for about $10,000 and another set were used 4 blade nibral rollas for about $2,000. The ss cleavers didn't work but the used rollas were real close to what i had hoped for in performance but they had a some vibration and the top rpm was off a little. based on the sea trial information ken martin @ pacific surface drive was able to spec out a new set made in jax, fl. by john rose. everything was done by phone, fax, etc. the new set was about $5,000 (and i kept the used rollas for spares, returned ss cleavers). the new set (took about 4 months to get) didn't quite get the rpm's i needed so ken @ pacific advised a local guy on some minor changes (he also tuned up my used rolla spares)and i have been pleased with the result, although i really don't have much to compare with. we do get the correct top recommended rpm, 2850 wide open-45knots and good cruise, 2300-2400rpm-40knots. i've now got 600 hours on the 420's. ( note-ken @pacific surface drive had wanted me to go with 1.5to1 trannys and i ignored the advice, don't know what the result would be if i hadn't.) i would suggest consulting with ken martin 604-929-5321 he has never let me down with advice and/or parts. i don't know who you have consulted with in florida but i know a few other arneson specialists there if you need a contact. how about rik wimp of arneson in california, have you consulted him?
also sorry to hear about the budget explosion, i have experienced it as well. even after the extensive fiberglass job was done it just seemed like i could never get past some semi-major problem and the repair always led on to another and another. but as i mentioned earlier, i think any vessel that is 20 years old, has 5,000 hours on the hull and gets run at 40 knots+ in the ocean is going to need work, no matter who built it. then again, some of the workmanship problems were simply uncalled for, a better job could have been done for not a lot more money and time. there were a few builder short-cuts that i encountered that really pissed me off big time. but i guess that's why they're all called a hole in the water that you pour $$ into. good luck with the props, if you want a few more contact names & numbers, contact me.

[martin@kroesche]

Pizzacutter:
Thanks for the data. I will call Ken Martin per your recommendation. I have worked with Paul Sanderlin in Miami and I sent my propellers to Hale Propeller per his recommendation. My local guys have no idea what they are even looking at. One wont touch it and the guy who wants to is on crack.

I am in the same position, I have no idea what it would do with the 1.5:1 gear that I wanted, they were all afraid it would not come up, which I knew was not going to be a problem. It comes out of the hole like a rocket, no lag. In fact, its too much. If I had the 1.5 gear it would have to spool up and come out like a typical diesel which is fine if the top end or cruise were improved.
Its hard to sit here and complain when my boat cruises at 35 knots and will top out at 40kt, but its not an improvement over the DD671's other than fuel and room.
I have talked to Rik numerous times but I think his interest is in selling a new set of Rolla props, he is very helpful and has sent me parts on several occasions.
Hale Propeller is going to tweak my set, three blade 23.5x40's and make them 23.5 x 38 and modify the cup. I have also thought about having a new set made and keeping these for spares. Ill check with Ken. I'm looking to add a few knots to my cruise and I don't care about top end.

On to the fun stuff-and the, "I cant stop spending money on my boat category"-I purchased a FLIR (forward looking infrared) unit. It is incredible and will revolutionize night time activities(like boating). I am attaching a picture and go to http://www.flir.com/imaging/nmc/media/streaming/f02225be-3a49-4b08-8b65-d3bcb9b00ad2.asx. I have only used it a few times and I am still amazed.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays

Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Steve/Pizza Cutter:
I spoke with Ken Martin @ Pacific surface drives per recommendation and he said that the 2:1 reduction is ideal for my application, fast fuel efficient cruise. I give up 4/6 knots on the top end but my cruise should be superb. His prop recommendation is a 25 x 35 4 blade, he said 40 knot cruise w/ 44 knot top end.
The Yanmar diesel should burn 10-12.5gph @ 2600 rpm, cruise. This means I should achieve 1.5-2.0 mpg with the new props. If this is the case, I have achieved all of my original goals, fast and fuel efficient. I could care less about the top end loss, 44 knots is all I ever need to do. I haven't heard from you guys, still out there? I post again after the new props are on. Oh yeah, I weighed my boat on the same scale as before the refurb, I was full of fuel but light on water, ice chest and gear. It weighed 16,000lbs v. 24600 prior to refurb. Hard to believe. The guy at the boat yard was amazed. Every replaced item was done with light weight composites. The engine room
reduction was 5000lbs alone. H.Harley said the 2:1 reduction is a tremendous mistake and it will never perform as desired until I change the gear.

Martin

[Steve H]

Pizza/Martin

Sorry I haven't been around here for awhile. Been traveling and boating alot this summer.

Great posts, you guys are starting to make me think about diesel power. The performance and economy is awsome.

I have had it in severe water many times. So far I have had no structural issues. Except once. I put a nice dent in the front from a piling that got in my way while docking. Yes it did happen after the new paint. I think a bow thruster might be on my list next.

I have done alot of boating this year with no mechanical problems to speak of. Boat been great. I'm starting to run out of crew members. They are all getting tired of boating. Went for a ride to the next town on New Years for lunch. 28 degrees. Has to chip the ice from the swim step to use it. Thank goodness for Red Dot heaters. It was shirt sleeves in the half canvas.
Took a 600 mile round trip up the Columbia River Gorge in July. Water was glass all the way there and part way back, then went to heck. We were down to 10 mph in some spots. Had a clean anchor after it was stuffed in green water over and over. Lost the most of the inserts out of the swim platform. I turned around to save one of them but no one would reach over the side to grab it.

Attached are the pics that Pizza sent me. Wow what a project. It took alot of dedication to follow thru with such a monumental task. I hope I never get tasked with that.
I have also been in touch with pacific surgace drives and rik both. They both seem to know their stuff. I think Rik deals with alot of high dollar performance work and Kevin works with commercial lower speed guys. both nice guys and are very well versed in their fields. Martin let me know how the prop issue turns out.
you night vision unit looks awsome. Does it work better than night vision goggles? I have a gen 1 set that I can use if I have to. But I still go very very slow and have another set of eyes helping me out.
Keep in touch

Steve


Pic 4: This is what happens when you have been driving for 3 hrs straight. The river looks wide open. Your experianced first mate has the charts. He has been up this river more times than you have. The GPS is set with a big arrow that points to the correct heading. You hand the helm over to another crew member. Explain how the red arrow thingy need to point in the direction that the boat is going. You think that you should throttle back a bit while someone else has the wheel. But hey; we are in a hurry. What could go wrong? You reach in the cooler and grab an ice cold beer. Step to the back. Light a cigar. Crack the beer, admire the scenery flying by at 35 knots, admire that awsome rooster tail, listen the music of twin big blocks cruising away at 3800 rpm. You think to your self "It just doesn't get better than this".

Then Wham!

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Good to hear from you. That's an interesting picture, however, I would have said I did it intentionally because I needed to check the bottom! In various order, the Thermal Imager works w/o any light, through fog, smoke, rain etc because it uses a heat signature v. light enhancement. Check out the video at FLIR. I attached a link. It works perfectly in the harbor and in general at slow speeds, it also detects different water depth by color (as the temperature is different. It is a definite novelty and really the boat only needs one if you so a lot of night time navigating in unfamiliar waters. Its 50/50 as to weather I would buy it again. I am waiting for Ken Martin @ Pacific Drives and ill let you know the result, it should be dynamite. Don't forget, you have an open invitation to come with your boat, we have a dock for you. From here you can go to various destinations and if so inclined into Mexico like Tampico or Cancun. I think Cancun is 740 miles from here.
Since were having confessional, I had a little incident of my own. I too have a scapegoat. When doing the refurbishment, I wanted to glass in my windows. The man that owns the shop sat with me and stared at the boat, convinced me that it would be mistake and that the windows add character. They had always leaked in the past and I could not get them to stop with all efforts.
So, he talked me into replacing them with new ones. I did. Yesterday, for the second time, I blew out one of the front windows, this time the starboard. Prior to that it was the port. It seems as if they were not made to withstand a bow plow at 40 knots, nothing damaging to the boat rather a lot of water at once and fast. I realize different type windows would hold, mine are not these. This week I am going to glass in the two front ones and then go from there. I also need to beef up the cabin, I had a lot of stuff moving around. It was 3-5 seas and pure chop all day, like a washing machine. I kept slowing down buy the Harley loves speed.

I am attaching a couple pictures of the fishing trip, we bundled up when its below 60 degrees here so don't feel sorry for us. The picture of th bird is a diving seagull who went for a lure. Thanks God this week its back in the mid 70's. The speckled trout are from my dock in a few minutes, under a green light. There here every night along with black drum and red fish.

Good to hear from you. Plan a trip.

Martin

[Swamplizard]

Hello - I am new to the forum but have enjoyed the Harley discussion. I (with countless hours of my father's time) have spent almost 3 years getting my superstar 42 running and cleaned up after it spent more than 10 years on a lift in south Florida - broken. At this point I am working on replacing the cracked and crazed windshield and working on finding some props that work better for cruising. Otherwise - knock on wood - just about everything works so I will be getting some cosmetics done and name her soon.

[martin@kroesche]

Send a picture. Going through this experience has been an education, please ask any questions if you have any. I am in the final stages of understanding my prop situation. What engines do you have? and drives? Love to hear more about it.

Martin

[Swamplizard]

Martin,

Steve in WA is the only other Harley owner I have ever spoken with and he has been very helpful with ideas.

The boat originally had 500 hp farera (NJ) 454s and the props were 20x23 pitch (3 blade nibral round eared low rake and no cup). When I purchased it it had been on a lift in Florida for 10 years as a project boat with blown motors that could not be repaired - the thread below shows what we went through:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/orenard13/album?.dir=c497&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

I made one major mistake in the entire process, I decided that I needed 425 HP and since one motor was counter-rotating that I would go with 502's with carbs to keep things simple. I chose a guy in Ft Lauderdale to build the motors (instead of finding new ones) and though his references checked out he has a crack problem, flaked out and built two POS motors. I can't sue since there is a line in front of me and he has nothing to make good. So, after three rebuilds and many component changes she now runs okay but is under powered. How Steve can run his with 415hp stock motors is a mystery...mine is a dog.

Transmissions are 1.5:1 Borg Warners and I have Arneson ASD8s. She will cruise at 25 mph at 3600 rpm but doesnt sound good - working too hard and guzzling gas. At 3800 it sounds better if light (not too many people or fuel) and runs about 31 mph but feels like it is "pinned". As the drives get raised and the rpms go up all hell breaks loose - noisy, chaos, sounds like it is going to break apart but I can get a little over 4000 rpm and 40 mph....very unsettling and fule consumption jumps (I have navman gps and fule flow meters). Getting .8 MPG at 25.

My strategy going forward is two fold: I am hunting for smaller props, preferably cleavered 4-6 blades in the 17.5x21 range to see if I can get rpms up and get more into the HP of these motors. I am also playing with ventilation snorkels to help lessen the load at launch.

Second; I am looking to add blowers (small ones with 4 pounds of boost) to get another 75-100 HP and if I blow the motors -oh well - opportunity to get them built right and know CAM, roller, 4 bolt mains, Gill exhausts...not sure what the compression is so might have to change heads or pistons to lower compression since I want to run this thing on pump gas.

The props have been cupped, balanced, and changed to 19x19 but I am trying some other props since I cant seem to get more than 4100 rpm out of them.....would prefer 4800....and will keep these as spares if I find something better.

[pizzacutter]

Harley Guys,
Good to see more guys on the site, after 17 years of owning I can tell you it's a lot of trial & error so any info is helpful. Steve, I saw your run-aground photo, I can one-up you as soon as I get the photo from my buddy. I hit a beach @ 30 knots @ night, I was so far up on land that you could walk all the way around. 20 men pushing and a work boat pulling got me off the next day and there was no damage! The girl with me was not too impressed. Martin, you are on the right track using Ken Martin for prop work, he is sharp. He sold me 2 sets 4 years ago and I am pleased. He also came thru this fall when I tore down the drives for new boots and decided to replace all U-joints, seals, hoses, etc. He has almost any part needed and an extreme amount of knowledge. I also know another guy in S. Fla. who is just as sharp. He and his son work for/with Twin Disc/Arneson on all types of applications. If you ever take the boat to S. Fla. let me know, you should have these guys do a sea-trial. That's great that your weight is down to 16,000 which is where I think I am. Lighter is better as long as the strength is there. That was Harley's biggest downfall. Lot's of knowledge with lite-weight materials, but not enough knowledge of structural integrity. 42' boat with poor stringer system+40 knots+bumpy ocean= PROBLEMS! The sad part is that the design was way ahead of it's time, but poor construction wiped it out. I think Harley was advised early on about potential structural problems but chose to ignore and the rest is history. I worked hard on port holes and have slowed leaks, but I don't think you can end them with the speeds we are running. I closed front ones cheap. A guy cut me pieces of 1/4" black starboard same shape but a little bigger, screwed them over holes with sealant. Looks OK, low cost, works. I assume you are stuffing the bow to blow out the windows, word of caution: we stuffed the bow 3 years ago in big seas @ 35 knots: very ugly, I'll try to find photos. The deck and hull seperated, lots of fiberglass & interior damage. We did most of the repairs in house and still spent about $7,500. Only good thing was that when the forward cabin was gutted we improved the hull to deck joint so that it would likely not happen again. Make sure you follow up on why so much stuff is moving around in cabin. If you need to beef up stringers or add a second ring frame, like the one at the back of the v-berth (I added one just forward of galley cabinets) do it sooner not later if possible, otherwise other stuff will break and break... Martin, don't want to discourage you but I think 2 mpg will not happen, 1.5 would be the best, based on my experience. Even when I had the 350hp Cats and backed off to save fuel I rarely saw 1.5. With the 420hp Cats I usually count on only about 1 to 1.2 mpg on long trips.
Swamp, Steve, my advice for what it's worth, try to save up for the diesels. It's a lot of boat for any version of twin gas big-blocks, unless of course money is not an issue. But even then.... I'd still try diesels. I've had 2 sets of Cats, 1 set for 9 or 10 years and the current set for almost 4 years. Total repair bills (not mait.) for both sets are probably under $5,000, for 14 years and 4,000+ hours! I saw you mentioned vent snorkels for the drives. I have tried both with and without and don't see much difference. However, the performance guys in Fla. are big on them. Some guys spend thousands on custom stainless tube versions. However, I think these guys are geared up for big top end speeds and are sacrificing the hole shot. Might be another reason to go diesels.
Good luck to all with Harley's. They are a lot of work but, can be a lot of fun. I'll keep in touch and look for more photos.

[Swamplizard]

Thanks Pizzacutter...good stuff.

I live in Florida and rarely run it hard in crappy conditions...there is always a nicer day around the corner so I hope to never stuff it at more than exiting the inlet speeds. I have done the math 20 times and cant justify diesels for my usage....down here a pair of decent cats or yanmars are close to 40 each plus rework to install....I dont have half of that in the boat now and since I don't use it every day (I'm a working slob with kids in college) cost of gas will not ever add up to 80k. Granted I don't have the torque I wish I had and my range with 300 gallons means I have to get fuel when I go to the keys or the bahamas (no round trips sans fill up). If I were to do it all again I would probably go with 540 cu monster gas engines from areputable builder like Chief but for now - I have to go with what I have and see if I can add HP with small blowers or head work to cruise easier.

[Swamplizard]

I found a set of 6 blade rollas - 17.5 x 22.5 and I have a prop question? How does the number of blades effect the prop's performance?

Shouldnt a 22.5 inch prop move 22.5 inches per revolution regardless of the number of blades?

Does it need more Hp to spin? Less drag or more? Less slip?

What are the dynamics?

Thanks

[martin@kroesche]

Gentlemen:
I typed a long post last night and when I hit submit it lost it, I think. This one will be short. Steve-my cabin has all been completely reinforced from end to end and nothing moves much-it had flimsy stringers and I had some shifting which has been completely remedied. I have bow pierced in the past(off Tampa in a storm), this will not happen again. I lost my windshield. There is constant pressure running rough through seas on those two front windows-they are designed wrong for that type of psi. Ill fix it. My prop situation will change in the next few weeks and ill give you an update with new numbers-and yes, 2.0 mpg is dreamy-but then I am fixing up a Harley boat-so I have to be a dreamer to see it done! Ill modify my expectations to 1.5 and go from there. My assumptions are based on what it does now with the drives all the way down and extremely inefficient and the gains from "surface mode" from the experts. My calibrated flow scans show it is getting 1.2 currently. This is going 37 knots. I figure I will be able to pull back on the throttles to say 32-35 knots(with the new props), to 2300 rpm which should burn 20ghp......we'll see. As for Swamplizard-if I can give one piece of advice-as I would have done it differently 7 years ago. I fixed my entire boat from end to end and at an extreme cost not even thinking about my prop needs-they are Rolla factory and now I have found out that after 7 years it has never been in its fast efficient "surface mode". I would have done everything I could to get the props correct first and then work on the other stuff. Your speeds sound abnormally low. With 20/20 hindsight I now realize that I have been loading/lugging my engines slowing down the boat and burning excessive fuel. The guys on this forum have made some great recommendations on props-call Ken Martin @ Pacific Surface Drives or Randy Hale @ Hale Propeller. These guys know what the are doing and will take the time to talk to you about it. If you or anybody is interested- I have two sets of props i am going to sell- one set is 24X26 three blade and the other is 22x38 three blade Rollas-all are 25tooth splined.

Ok, thats all-Greetings to all from the Miami boat show-ill post pictures soon.

Martin

[Swamplizard]

Thanks Martin - good stuff. I am assuming you have diesels. I seem to crusie at 30 mph and get about .9 mpg - lousy. I know my props are off and hope to get the boat spinning more rpms and lugging less for better longevity. Steve H is sending me a pair of props to try and I have found a few pairs locally - 6 blade rollas and 4 blade cleavers which I may also try. HE seems to crusie at 10 mph faster than I do with his bone stock 415hp motors but he is set up differently, motors rearward, transmissions are better...and I suspect his boat is lighter. We'll see. Thanks for the names - I'll call them next week.

[martin@kroesche]

Swamplizard:
I spent the day yesterday @ the Harley factory. That was interesting. I think all your problems are related to your props. What size are you trying? I am becoming a little knowledgeable. I too will send you a set of props to try-you probably should get a computer program recommendation-I am in Miami w/ a guy who is an expert and if you care to send me some data I will get a recommendation while I am here. Ironically, he had the same color hull you have, picture attached. He now has a 63' Harley with power vent. Its fantastic. Anyway, the engine forward is a standard configuration for these boats, I did weight test before moving mine an inch. My opinion is that they are fine where they are. I assume you have a factory 42' hull, 15000lbs with engines and gears. Did you ad weight during your refurb or was it neutral?
Please tell me; gear ratio, hp, est. weight and ill give you a recommendation from someone with a lot of experience. I have all of the hull drawings so I know the dead rise, LOA etc. to finish the calculation.
Ok, see you for now.
Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Harley Guys:
Two quick items. First, I am really excited about connecting with other Harley owners. I want to compile a database of boats and people I have talked to with the goal to create a resource for Harley owners eventually covering all areas from props to refurbs to stingers etc. Ideas? I am looking for a domain name currently and let you know immediately once secured. I would like to create database of owners as well and emails.....email me your opinion directly to martin@padredevelopment.com. Second, if anyone has seen of or has a old 42' hull I would love to restore another one based on what I now know. Condition doesn't matter, price does. Give me some feedback please. We could hop off this forum and go directly to a Harley forum?
Martin

[Swamplizard]

Howard Harley is selling one on his lot in Bartow.

[Swamplizard]

I have not added any weight during the refurbishing - replaced rotted floors with the same construction materials and replaced the 454s with 502s so no net change. What info other than in the above post will you need?
Current props are round eared - 3 blade, low rake 19x19. I get 30 mph at 3600 rpm and can get to nearly 40 at 4100 rpm but only when boat is light (little fuel or gear). 4100 is WOT which is not good - should be close to 5000.

[Steve H]

Whats up men?

Did a little prop testing this weekend. I removed my 18x21 three blade nibrals and installed a set of 17.5x22 rolla 4 blade cleavers. My WOT rpms went from 4,400 to 4,000. My top speed went from 50mph to 52mph as per gps. Lost a lot of bow lift. Nose is more or less planted at full speed. I am more comcerned about the rpms since most of the time I am running in the high 30's to low 40's anyway. These props are very smooth. No harsh vibrations at any speed. Gets on plain pretty good. I am going to make some phone calls to get some opinions on tweaking them for more rpms. I know most cleaver props are what they are. But I'm sure someone can play with the cup or pitch a little.
During testing I did torch the port motor. It has had oil pressure issues for awhile. So I wasn't that surprised. My back is already hurting just thinking about being hunched over that motor for couple of hours getting it ready to pull. I'll get my 16yr old son to give me a little help. luckily a local engine guy owes me big, so cost won't be a big issue. Boat has to come out soon anyway for some heavy service and bottom paint. I'm not going to worry about it for a week or so.I'm going to start my snowmoble for the first time in three years and ride tomorrow on Mt. St. Helens. It should be good.(if I don't torch that too)

Martin: Whats up at the Harley Factory? Hangin with Howard?

Pizza: What do you tow your boat with? What is the combined weight of boat and trailer? Sound like you tow alot. Just curious.

Steve

[Swamplizard]

torched a motor? What happened? Sorry to hear about the motor Steve.

[john2153]

Martin, I have seen many Harley boats, and have seen the pictures of your rebuild.....trust me when I say you have a Martin, with Harley hull

[martin@kroesche]

Gentlemen:
Seems to be more of us these days. Hopefully I will have my site up in the next week or so. I want to have a similar format but also provide additional resources, like a catalog of boats, engines, drives, gear reductions, speeds and fuel consumption-performance data, i.e. weight to hp. I think it will be useful for anyone taking on this endeavor. By the way, we have a new one to the group. Howard Harley sold Bert's old 42 last week and it is going to be restored, per HH. Steve, I went to HH because I still think there is something to these hulls some 20 years later-but I don't know. Ill update you later.
I took a spin on a 63' Harley with power vents, saw 46 knots burning 1:1, what a machine. Took a video for you guys. By the way, to clarify, these are not HH's boats, these are HH hulls but these guys are doing their own thing completely. Ill have more on this on the site. Also, another 54 x 14 Harley which left the shop a few years back in being converted to a Sportfish, its awesome. Picture attached. Howard has another hull in his shop, a 54 x 14
raw hull, he's asking 250k which is a little pricey for its condition. More on that also.

Since I have started compiling data and photos of various HH boats, please send me data on speed, engine and gear config, fuel consumption, year and length of hull, condition, weight if known or estimated. Photos are also great. I will post a data sheet and simply mark the owner as N/A, or if you wish, place your name next to the boat. In my case, I don't care. But several will, so the owners name and contact will be held confidential.

Couple other items; John, thank you for the comment, a Martin, not a Harley which I agree, same with the others guys, like Steve's boat, inside and out is exceptional. At the Miami show there was some interesting stuff, most notably, a common rail Cummins diesel 480 hp, I'm sure designed to compete with the highly efficient 440/480 hp Yanmars. It is lighter, more fuel efficient(10-20% according to their numbers), no smoke and the package, engines, gears, electronic(awesome) throttles and smart center which is a 10 inch electronic control center, and....and.....lubricants, cables, lines, everything but the install, 71k! 20k less than the Yanmars. This is really something to consider. Volkswagen, Toyota have all produced small lightweight diesels now. Exciting stuff.

I'm excited about putting this together(the Harley owners site). Here is my direct email again; martin@padredevelopment.com. Ill send you guys an update soon, in the meantime here are photos of a new Harley 54 x 14 under construction in S. Florida. Regards. Martin

[pizzacutter]

Sounds like good stuff being put together for Harley owners, By the way my name is Lee, Pizza Cutter is the boat name (play on words from a business venture). Martin, so you got to spend some time with Howard. Brings back memories- I almost bought a slightly used boat from him back in 1989, so I spent some time in Fla. with him on boats and at plant. He was bummed when I bought another slightly used boat (60hrs) from one of his buyers who did not like him very much. Howard urged me to bring it back to him for upgrades/re-power but I declined. I'm glad I stuck it out and did it my way. I made lot's of mistakes, but I'm sure HH would have made some too, perhaps more. I once had my boat with a guy in SW Fla. who had a couple of nice, nearly new, Harleys that he was working on. He said would De-Harley them for the owners so they could get more use out of them. His bill in some cases was 1/2 of the original purchase price. As far as all these prop questions going around, my experience has been to use the computer results for the original application, but then find someone local to fine tune after sea-trial. I used to take mine to a high-end shop with multiple lazers & computers for tune ups/repairs, but I found a local guy who does alot of work boats (little to no surface drive knowledge) and he seems to have the touch, his performance is right up with the best. I also had a badly damaged set repaired by a honky tonk shop in Fla. who had no surface experience and he turned in good results. I don't think it is rocket science.
I think Steve asked about tow rigs. We have a 3 axle trlr. rated for 20,000lbs. and I think that with the weight of the trlr, boat, fuel, and related gear we are pulling that amount and perhaps a bit more, 21,000 or 22,000. Especially on the Md. to Fla. trips when we load up with all fishing gear, scooters, and other junk. I have towed with most every brand dually pick-up over the years (hired, borrowed and personel) diesel & gas. My favorite is the big-block gas chevy with 4WD and the lowest gear ratio available. Even when they were 454's they were Ok but the current one is 496 (8.1 litre) with the 5 speed Allison auto. Works great right off the shelf, no chip, exhaust,... nothing modified and I use regular gas. Gets about 7.5mpg, has no problem with 70mph on I-95 and there is even a little more left if needed for passing. I'm sure the diesels get better mileage but they cost more to buy and I use mine primarily for the boat only so the truck has low miles. The gas rig also makes for a more user friendly machine when a friend needs to borrow the truck while in Fla. (quieter too).
Martin, good luck with the web-site, I'll try dig out old photos and other info to post when available. Also, good luck with finding & fixing another Harley (are you nuts!!??).

[Swamplizard]

I heard a rumor somone is going to buy the Superstar 42 molds from HH soon....can't divuldge who quite yet but from a good source.

[martin@kroesche]

Gentlemen:
Howard said he is going to put the 42' back into production. The molds have been sitting outside so it would take months to clean them up. Now days you can take exact measurement(laser) and have a company stamps a mold using some type of packed foam? Anyway, if anybody does it, it is a long haul.
HH also said he is going to build a 36'. I told HH and ill tell you the same-it is a momentous task and I doubt HH has the time or ability to make one from start to finish-my opinion. It would be great if he could/can.
As far as towing rigs, I differ with Lee and use Diesels for all my hauling. I haven't made exceptional distances but I have pulled my Harley(46) from Corpus Christi to San Antonio and then back after it was worked on(interior). I used a late model Cummins Dodge dually. We have two of these trucks, one is a 4 x 4 mega and the other is a 2 x 4 quad. Both trucks have pulled the boat somewhere, most recently I used the Mega to haul the boat out at a boat ramp. I have attached a picture of the boat sitting in the trailer. Generally, I have two Bobcat excavators we haul on a double goose neck trailer, they weigh 28,000lbs together with the goose neck.
My boat trailer was custom built and if anybody ever want that info, let me know. It is an aluminum's 4 axle 24,000lbs. It was around $7500 several years ago.

Anyway, on the San Antonio trip I went 65-70 with no problem and I don't know the fuel mileage but it wasn't bad, over 10. So, I prefer diesels and currently the Dodge Cummins is a monster. My opinion only, Lee. You guys could probably use a 3 axle 21,000lbs and 4 feet shorter for the 42's. I don't use my trailer to haul the finished boat, rather for a haul out only and instead of using a lift. The boat will not go down the road with its current height.

Thats it for now. I'm still working on my site, www.harleypowerboats.com will be up over the next few weeks. I am going to ask that we not bash HH on the site since that has been a tendency, including from me. I want to have a solid resource and by providing all of the data, like props size, weights, speeds, hulls etc I think we all benefit.

Martin
martin@padredevelopment.com

[Steve H]

Lee/ Martin

I don't know of a one ton truck that is rated to pull that much weight. Did you modify your trucks at all? Would insurance stand behind you in an accident? I want to do some towing. Just want to make sure my insurance won't balk.
I currently have a one ton dually chev w/gas power. I pull the boat a very short distance from the crane to my shop about once a year for maintanence. It just does not feel like it is up to the task of going cross country.

Steve

[pizzacutter]

Steve-Martin

You are correct that towing a 42 Harley with a std. dually is over-doing the ratings. I think the highest rating on any dually around these days is about 15,800lbs. while the boat,trlr. & gear is easily over 20,000lbs. maybe 22,000lbs. Probably would void warranties (I've always told my crew if we have a drive train failure, try to hire the boat towed elsewhere before the dealer gets the truck). However, (knock on wood) I've never had one (yet), lots of flat tires though. The other issue would be the DOT officials at a truck scale. We do pull oversize permits for the Fl. to Md. tow (which requires stops @ scales), but when we approach the scales, we just ...., you get the picture. Since the Harley was based on an old 8' wide Cig. they appear legal from ground level up to about 8' above the road. I know I should knock on wood but I have been questioned only twice in 17 years, once I had my 70 year old Mom with me and a very knowledgeable, but nice cop let me off with a warning, the other time the two troopers couldn't figure out what to do and in the mean time they got a call and left. My family used to develop mobile home/modular communities so I have been around over-weight and over-size stuff for many years. A little skill and a lot of luck has kept me truckin for 17years and not just around town. The Fl. to Md. is 1,100 miles, I guess I have done it 10 of the last 17 years. We also go 120 mile round trips Ocean City, Md. to Crisfield, Md. (check a map) to access the Chesapeake Bay. We have a small home on Tangier Island, Va. From my house it is 60 miles by trailer and then 14 miles by boat, OR by boat it is about 200 miles. Another reason why I trailer so much. I don't know the answer to the insurance questions, I guess you'd have to ask your agent. The weight of the rig is a big tow factor, but I believe that aerodynamics work in our favor. The pointed nose deflects wind nicely. I have been in mountain areas and seen big 5th wheel campers not be able to keep up with me and I'm certain they weight less, but catch more wind. One other important factor, on any long distance tow, we install a cover from base of windsheild back over transom. It has to have numerous support poles to keep it from flapping. I know that the cover helps alot, especially if it is windy. Bottom line is (in my opinion) a standard heavy duty dually will do it, but there are risks. You could spend a bundle on a custom 2 ton hauler, and I think Ford will have production F-450 soon rated in the low 20,000 lb. range, but it won't be cheap. Note that Martin tows around 28,000lbs. of equipment with a production dually. By the way Martin, I agree the new Dodge diesels are beasts for towing. I just like the purchase price and quiet operation of the gas Chevys.
Martin, thanks for the rule suggestion about HH. After all he really has alot of knowledge and without his designs (especially back in 1990) I don't know what I would have bought. Since I trailer so much I probably would have had something with big triple OB's. Think of how many engines I would have gone through in all those years (and fuel!)

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Its time for me to chime in. I have a similar background with this as Lee, although mine is a little different. Since I could drive we have hauled trailers, generally helping in the ranching business or pulling my own trailers. I remember at least 20 years ago we had a 42' goose neck steel cattle trailer which we would load up and haul, and I mean load up. This is with a Ford 1 ton dually, 1985 vintage. I have just never really thought much about loading a truck if I need to go somewhere and it would pull it. I owned a 35' triple Donzi, red, which HH convinced me to sell from his shop. I pulled it from Corpus Christi to his shop in Bartow. It weighed 13,000lbs, scale. I didn't obtain permits, I just pulled it, and behind a diesel excursion. I have buddies who are Ford, Dodge, or Chevrolet dealers here and they would always take care of warranty issues. although, after 20 years of towing I have never had a significant item related to towing or the power train. I think the summary is; a one ton dually will pull your boat easily short distances with care and caution-do you agree, Lee? I recommend a Dodge with a Cummins diesel, the later model the better. I have an old one as well, 1998, which has 160k miles and I would not hesitate to hook up a load and haul it somewhere. That truck is probably valued at less than $8000. So, if you don't want a new(er) one, my opinion is that an older one will work as well. By the way, when you are not hauling they get 20 mpg @ 75 mph.

I have some great pictures for you guys, a video clip BK's 63 Harley running 50+mph in the Atlantic. ill get it up soon.

Regards Martin

[Steve H]

I realize that a one ton truck is very capable, especially the newer ones. My concern is insurance. If an accident caused injury or death, I would not want my insurance company to use the tow rating on my truck as a reason to void my coverage. I will do some more research. Thanks, wealth if info here.

Steve

[Ron Alexander]

Martin,

I just discovered the Harley forum on boatdesign.net. My wife and I live in Seattle and purchased a 1985 42' Harley Superstar last August. This is our first major boat investment and we see that we have a lot to learn. From the sounds of the comments in this forum it sounds like these boats may be a problem. We love ours and so far are only running it on Lake Washington. She's got twin 454 Chevies with Arneson ASD8s and we've been able to get her up to about 50 mph. Good enough for our purposes as we are not out to race.

Add us to your list of owners. We'd be happy to be included in any and all mailings or forums regarding our Harley

Thanks,

Ron Alexander
Seattle

[Swamplizard]

She's a beauty - welcome Ron.

We both have Chevies - would like to hear more details about your configuration if you have it:

Size of motors (454, 502)
EFI or carb
HP rating?
Transmission reduction?
Props - diameter, # blades, pitch?

Thanks!

[Steve H]

Hi Ron,

I've been aboard your boat! I looked it over several years ago. I still have a lot of pictures that I took. I think it was around 1999. That wooden cockpit floor is awsome. It was overpriced at that time and the broker would not even consider my offer. I think he said that the former owner had cruised it to Alaska more than once. That's a trip I would like to do soon. I'm about two hours south of you in Longview. I don't need much on excuse to go for a boat ride.

Steve

[Ron Alexander]

Swamp Lizzard,

They are 330 hp carburated (800 CFM Holleys) 454s with Twin Disc 1.54 : 1 reduction transmissions. Props are Nibral 3 blade 19 x 20 LH 7 RH with cup. Frankly I don't know what that means. I took this information from the survey I had done before I bought the boat.

The story I got was that an elderly gentleman owned the boat and then when he passed away he left it to a son or other relitave who blew up one motor and transmission. He put it into a local repar yard to have it fixed. The engine was rebuilt and the last new Twin Disc transmission available was purchased and installed by the repair yard. When the son got the $25K bill he walked away and abandoned the boat. Said he was afraid of it and didn't want it anyway. It was tied up in legal battles for a while and then just sat in the yard. A friend of mine told me about it and when we saw it we fell in love with her. We bought it for less than the mechanic's lien that they had put on it. The outside upholstery was shot so we have completely re-upholstered her and have been fixing up little things to bring her back to life. She has a teak deck from the factory. I talked to Howard Harley and he remembers the boat because they didn't ship many of these boats to Seattle..........especially with teak decks.

I am interested in all the chatter about props here on this website. I spoke with Rik at Arneson in California and he suggested that we would get better performance with cleaver type props........with 4 blades rather than three. We've been able to peg the spedo at 50 at around 4600 or 4800 rpms.......I can't recall exactly. We were too thrilled to see the rooster tail to take any notes about rpms etc.

Like I said, we are just learning but are anxious to see the summer come back so we can get out again. Seattle weather hasn't been kind to us this winter. We had a big windstorm in December that knocked out the power for over 1,000,000 up here....us included. Thankfully our marina had power after the first day so we moved onto the boat for a week. Me, my wife, our 18 year old son and our Golden Retreiver...........But that is an entirely different story.

Guess I've rambled on too long. Thanks for the "welcome aboard"

Ron & Terri Alexander
"Seattle Vice"

[Ron Alexander]

Steve,

So what's keeping you? I live in Kenmore on the lake. I'd be happy to take you out for a spin any time. We haven't ventured out through the locks yet into Puget Sound but we plan to try that this summer. Maybe even crusing up into the San Juans for a few days. It's all new to us. Alaska? Someday for sure.

All I know right now is my bank account is at rock bottom. This old girl needed a lot of TLC and I'm still not finished. :rolleyes:

Ron

[martin@kroesche]

Guys:
How come nobody invites me? I'm feeling a little left out! Just kidding-Ron-nice boat. Ive been looking at simulated teak for my decks, "flexiteek" or "plasteek".
I'm looking for some lightweight alternatives to the real thing.
Also, keep in mind that Im looking for suggestions/ideas for the Harley site.

Take Care-Nice Boat, Martin

[Steve H]

Steve,

So what's keeping you? I live in Kenmore on the lake. I'd be happy to take you out for a spin any time. We haven't ventured out through the locks yet into Puget Sound but we plan to try that this summer. Maybe even crusing up into the San Juans for a few days. It's all new to us. Alaska? Someday for sure.

All I know right now is my bank account is at rock bottom. This old girl needed a lot of TLC and I'm still not finished. :rolleyes:

Ron

Ron,

That was an invite for you to come here for a ride. But since you offered, I will take you up on that as soon as the weather clears. I'll be in Seattle this weekend, but I won't have time for any recreation, just work stuff.
You should consider cruising the Columbia this summer. We do a trip up stream most years for the Unlimited Hydro Races in Tri Cities. I have a dock next to my boat house that is empty most of the time.
Martin, Lee, and Oliver. You are all invited to come up for a boat ride anytime.

Ron- lets see some pics!

Pulled broken engine yesterday. Still in the back of my truck. I'll get it undressed and to the builders today. I'm way to old to be wrestling these things.



Steve

[Swamplizard]

Likewise gents - if you are ever in Fort Lauderdale area....we can take a ride and check out the ICWW.....but slower than you guys go until I get blowers

;-)

Cheers

O

[Swamplizard]

Just tried to mount Steves props on my boat - wont slide on the shaft because the forward part of the prop - the barrel - doesnt have tapering the entire way like my props do. I cant try the other props I got either - 4-blade clevers. Very dissappointed. The 19-spline ends are correct, the holes are the right diameter - just not tapered right???????

What does this mean? Do I have ASD8s or not? Ugh - bit frustrated here in FL

[martin@kroesche]

Swamplizard and all:
While we are showing the brotherly love, I'm a little(harley) lonely here in Texas-anybody? Seriously, Swamplizard-you should contact B. Kehren in N.Miami Beach. He is the one with the 63x14. He would probably like to show it to you and maybe take you for a ride. He's minutes from you. I go there frequently, so next time I'd like to see your boat.

martin@padredevelopment.com

Regards,

Martin

[pizzacutter]

Steve
there is a chance that your drives are the earlier SP 1000's that Harley used in some of the first 42's. Those drives steered and trimmed on a CV joint vs. the double U-joint on the later #8's. I think that all of the SP 1000's were 19 spline, I don't know if they made a #8 with 19 splines. I am sure that Ken @ Pacific Surface Drives would know. By the way when I re-powered in 2003 I swapped out my older SP 1000's for #8's that I got from Rik @ Arneson. Then I had 25 spline. Sold SP 1000's with a set of tranny's to a guy in Boston for about 5 grand, included complete assessories, 2 sets of props, etc. The 1000's were troublesome. Replaced many CV joints, expensive parts, lot's of work. There should be an ID plate on top of drive. Might need to scrape it off to read info. If they are 1000's it may be on that plate. If anybody out there has 1000's and needs a CV joint, contact me, I have a contact at a direct manufacuterer. Cost from Arneson or Twin-Disc is more. Since you are down south I wondered if you had ever heard of Mark Wilson (around Stuart), he is a big time Arneson/Prop guru. I'll look for number if you have not heard of him.
I'll try to look at your boat maybe later this winter (our 2nd home is in N. Palm Beach). I think I am down the weekend of 3-31/4-1. I don't know if we could fit it in but I will have my mechanic with me (he wants to go to Barrett/Jackson auto auction). He has 15 years+ exp. on Harley's and Arnesons. Let me know where your boat would be. He also wants to go to Fla. Derby @ Gulfstream, I think that is your neighborhood. Good luck with props/drives.
Lee

[Swamplizard]

Stop in for a beer - I'm in lighthouse point. email me at orenard at comcast dot net for cell phones #s etc.

Cheers

O

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
I had an older set of the ASDs, mine are called SP1200(Surface piercing). I have the CV joint version. It is correct that you can order one(bearings) for a fraction of the retail price. I purchased 2 from a company in Europe that manufactures them for carnival rides. I have rebuilt and replaced these once, they have been fairly bullet proof for me. These are of course larger drives, and the almost exact same as the ASD10' currently in production. I do not know about the SP1000s'. In the same location, south Florida you need to also contact Paul Sanderlin, P&L Marine, he was recommend to me by Arneson Industries(Rik). He rebuilt my drives and was extremely reasonable. He know almost everything about the drives but defers to prop experts for sizing. I know a guy who is looking for some ASD8's, are you selling yours? He has a Haley boat as well. I think the market price is greater than 5k unless they are torn up. I was fortunate enough to find an almost new set of ASD10's sitting on a shelf by the great lakes. They were 15k. This is typical for a good used set. 25 tooth is a common spline for these, the 19tooth can be converted.
Regards-Martin

[martin@kroesche]

The SP series drives were produced up to approx. 1990. At one point you could get either one according to TD. Twin disc still makes the Arneson drive and ZF has their own version called the SeaRex/Trex(one is smaller) which has all the hydraulic lines inside the transom. If I were buying a new set I would definitely consider the SeaRex/TRex from ZF.

[Ron Alexander]

Swamplizzard,

We were just in Fort Lauderdale 2 weeks ago on vacation. :mad: We went down for speed week at Daytona then spent the week following in Boca. We have a condo there. I was dying for a boat ride and settled for the 3 hour round trip water taxi ride on the New River. We kept our eyes open for Harleys but didn't see any. Next time I 'll know who to call.

Ron

[Steve H]

Oliver: I had a similiar problem with a set of props. They slid too far on the shaft because of the different taper. I was able to make a spacer that allowed them to fit.

Can you yake a pic of two props, so we can see the difference?

Just an idea,

Steve

[Swamplizard]

I pu my props back on the boat but will take pics when I can....managed to throw my back out again doing some honey-do stuff.....ugh

Anyway - Rik at arneson confirmed that I have ASD8s. My existing props are 4-inch hubs with spacers and both of the ones I want to try are 6-inch and should fit. Unless, somewhere along the line, someone modified my shafts. Got a buddy who is a machinist and will measure them and compare them to the new porps.

Steve - is ok if I ship them back to you next week? Can't face lifting them for a few days.

[Steve H]

I pu my props back on the boat but will take pics when I can....managed to throw my back out again doing some honey-do stuff.....ugh

Anyway - Rik at arneson confirmed that I have ASD8s. My existing props are 4-inch hubs with spacers and both of the ones I want to try are 6-inch and should fit. Unless, somewhere along the line, someone modified my shafts. Got a buddy who is a machinist and will measure them and compare them to the new porps.

Steve - is ok if I ship them back to you next week? Can't face lifting them for a few days.


NO RUSH

[martin@kroesche]

Sorry guys, I guess I have been a little off topic. I get the post sent to my blackberry(crackberry) and then respond w/o reading the full post. My only contribution to the current topic is I know that the shaft size and splines are interchangeable. You can order asd8's with 19 or 25 tooth splines. anyway, sorry about that.

Martin

[Swamplizard]

Steve - props are on their way back to you. Thanks again for the offer to test them and the trust involved to do so. You are a good man and I owe you one. Sorry it didnt work out. Cheers

[Steve H]

Steve - props are on their way back to you. Thanks again for the offer to test them and the trust involved to do so. You are a good man and I owe you one. Sorry it didnt work out. Cheers

Not a problem. I have done a lot of horse trading with fellow boaters across the country. Haven't beed screwed yet. (knock on wood)

So what is the deal? What type of 19 spline shafts do you have? I thought they were all the same other than length?

[Swamplizard]

apparently not - I cant tell if mine have been modified or what the deal is. Rik at arneson identified them for me as asd8s...so it should work but wasnt even close. I might get the 4 blade props machined by a freind of mine to make them fit...then I'll have spares and can get them tuned as needed...it's more $$$ but I cant cruise these shallow aters without spares.

[Swamplizard]

Steve - get the props yet?

[buckknekkid]

SWAMPLIZARD Have you spoken to Errol Lanier? If hes still in Ft.Lauderdale hes good at ASD'S

[Steve H]

Tripped over them this morning trying to get to my office in the dark! They must have shown up Fri PM. I should learn what the light switch is for.

Thanks Oliver

[Swamplizard]

Any if you guys having problems losing the seal on your steering ram? I think clams or barnacles are getting in there and f-ing it up. I have replaced two seals in six months.....anoying since I have no lift or trailer. Suggestions ? Rubber boots perhaps?

[Steve H]

Any if you guys having problems losing the seal on your steering ram? I think clams or barnacles are getting in there and f-ing it up. I have replaced two seals in six months.....anoying since I have no lift or trailer. Suggestions ? Rubber boots perhaps?

I have not had a problem with the steering ram. I have had to reseal both trim rams at least once. Now I always lift both drives all the way when parked. Keeping the seal serface of the shaft inside the ram assy.

[Swamplizard]

yeah - I try to turn the steering wheel all the way to do the same for the steering ram but still popping it. Thanks Tho.Lanier rebuilt my drives for me and did the ram the last time. Great guy - builds really cool cat-based bass boats now

[Steve H]

Hey Martin,

did you ever get your props dialed the way you want them?

Steve

[Swamplizard]

Hey guys -what is my 88 Harley Superstar worth in todays market?

Superstar, BBC 502s, ASD8s, New AC, New micro, all new pluming and wires, new interior, bimini, windlass

Any ideas?

[Steve H]

Wonder who belongs to these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Arneson-Surface-Drive-Props-24x26x3-25-tooth-spline_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26456QQihZ009QQitemZ190104021284QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[Swamplizard]

they look nice - guess the prop testing must have gone well.

[Swamplizard]

Anyone got their Harley on a lift?

[Steve H]

I had my last boat which was a 38' Baja on 12,000 lb Hydrohoist. It would almost lift my Harley but not quite. Ended up selling it to my neighbor. Keeping my eye open for a deal on a bigger one.

[Swamplizard]

brought my props to a buddy of mine to measure and figure out why they dont fit my asd8 shafts....he measured the interior of the new props and they are about an 1/8th smaller. Are there skinny shafts and fatter shafts on arnesons?

[Swamplizard]

is there anybody out there.......cricket cricket

[Steve H]

Still here, installed motor and reworked 4 bladers yesterday. Hopefully it will run on sat.

Steve

[pizzacutter]

to: Swamplizard from:Pizzacutter
sorry I missed you a few weeks ago. I am in Palm Beach now but leaving Tuesday 5-1. I have an appointment Monday in Delray @ 9:00am. Might be able to swing for a look around noon, are you available? I brought some Harley photos with me including some new custom adjustable floor supports I had made. They really improve the cockpit split floor system. If you have the time call my cell @410-726-2612. If not I'm coming back in mid-May for last trip of the season. Regards, Lee

[Swamplizard]

pizza - sorry I missed you Dude - I have been travelling way too much of late - never home. When will you be here in May?

[Swamplizard]

Prop Udate: didnt go well. I mounted the 4 blade clevered 17.25x23 pitch blades on and my 502s could not get on plane at all. We tried a few times but not even close I am wonderring if the 23-pitch is accurate. Might get them looked at/scanned to see what gives. They shoud have worked....not ever close.

I am busilding some ventilation snorkels for the boat...probably re-install the antique props for now....mount the snorkles when they are ready and then try these clevers again. Very dissappointing indeed!

[Steve H]

Prop Udate: didnt go well. I mounted the 4 blade clevered 17.25x23 pitch blades on and my 502s could not get on plane at all. We tried a few times but not even close I am wonderring if the 23-pitch is accurate. Might get them looked at/scanned to see what gives. They shoud have worked....not ever close.

I am busilding some ventilation snorkels for the boat...probably re-install the antique props for now....mount the snorkles when they are ready and then try these clevers again. Very dissappointing indeed!


Hey Oliver!

Sorry to hear about your prop testing. How did you get them to fit?

Rule of thumb says you will loose about 200 rpm for each one inch increase in pitch. Then another 200 rpm loss from the extra blade. The lower that figure some for the smaller diameter.

19 to 23 pitch = 800 rpm loss?
3 to 4 blade = 200 rpm loss?
19" dia to 17.25= 200 rpm gain ?

The sum of above numbers is an approx loss of 800 rpm. This would lower your WOT from 3600 to 2800 rpm.

I went from a 18X21 three blade nibral to a 17.75"X22 four blade I lost 400 rpm. Sent to BBlades to get my rpm back up. He reduced diameter to 17". added cup to blade tips to get the bow lift back and reduced blade area some. Now my rpms are in the ball park but they are not as near as efficient as they were. They work OK at 38 mph or faster, but not very good at lower speeds. Oh well lesson learned. I am waiting to hear back from ellis
propellers on a set of nibral 4 blades. We'll see

Steve

[Swamplizard]

had a freind machine them a little - took 1/32 out of the hole for me...19-splin end always did fit right. Then he made a spacer for the prop side.

it felt like the HP wasnt there to make it go - I am going to try snorkles once I get them done to see if it helps the motors spin up....I suspect I will have to get them tweaked alot or BLOWERS baby ;-)

[Swamplizard]

I have a two week vacation planned in the abacos this summer and this pig better run well by then. I might get some cup taken out of my old 3-blade props to gain some rpms and use the snorkels to help it get on plane with less load.

Then when I get back from the bahamas - I think I want to add some baby blowers with 3-4 pounds of boost. This should give me about 525 hp per motor but more importantly - more torque accross the powerband. IT'll suck gas more but I should be able to curise at better speeds with lower rpms....yes new props will be required.

The only alternative is to get 2:1 transmissions, change props, and stick with what I got for HP. If I find some straight BW72Cs with 2:1 that can be reversed as needed...then I will probably buy a pair of crate 540s (or long blocks) that both spin in same direction and repower next winter.

PS- my wife has almost had it with this project ;-)

[Steve H]

Well I just ordered a set of props from John Rose @ Ellis Propellers. He recomended 17X20.5 4 blade, round ear, and relatively large blade area. I thought 17 sounded a little low on diameter. But John assured me that it would work just fine. He seemed very familiar with Harleys. Price is pretty fair at 975 ea. Fair as long as they work! Main goal is smooth and quiet operation, and equal or better performance. John said he thinks that I will end up with a higher cruise speed. That sounds awsome if it happens. I won't get them for about three weeks. So I am cautiously optimistic at this point.

Hey Martin: are you still around? Have you done any testing with your new props? If so lets here it

Oliver: I still think you should try the props I sent you, they are still in the box if you want to try again.

Steve H

[Swamplizard]

Steve, I would have to have them bored out to fit my shafts - I dont want to do that to them bro.

[martin@kroesche]

Greetings-
Yes still here. I am almost done with my forum, I want to transfer the Harley conversations to the new site if you want. In the meantime can you guys email me the following;

name
email
contact#
boat size, type
engines
trans
props
speeds
comments

I will keep this completely confidential and you will be asked pemission before it is released on a case by case basis (another Halrey owners wants to talk to you).

I wil post boat info up on the site for others to use as a reference. I have a lot of this info but i would like to confirm and complete. Since I started this I have had several owners come out which are not part of this site.

my email address is; martin@coastaloffshore.com
(361) 949-2628 or if you have the padredevelopmet address it still works. The web site is www.harleypowerboats.com

Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
I have been having my own prop difficulties. I bought a new set, 25x35x4. They are not letting me turn the RPM's i need. I am 400 short of max. horsepower. I have made several corrections and I am completely frustrated. They are now 25x33.25x4. I borrowed a set from a friend who had 22x30x6 and they ran the best and smoothest although they were too small. Here's several recent items i learned;

In order for the boat to perform max. it will not come up w/o cavitation tubes. I attached picture before and ill do it again here. If it does, then you are losing on top end. All boats using ASD's (new) have these tubes. The best props I have seen on these(our Harleys) boats are 6 blade round ear. They cost about $6000USD for a pair. I am tempted to order another set like this. More diameter the better you are in the "surface mode". I can not see how a 17" diameter will work but I have also never heard of a new prop in this style costing under a $1000. I learn stuff everyday.

Currenty I am seeing 38knots w/o all the rpms. I do not know my next step and fishing season is here so I may live with it for now. Most of the Harley owners see more thn 40knots when set up. I am burning 14/16 gph per side, or 1.2/1.6 mpg.

I am also going to add some weight back to my bow as I think i took off too much during the refurbishment. It is little light in the front.

I am going to go back and read through the old post and make another comment if I see something relevant. Steve, what props do you have?

Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Guys:
With respect to the cavitation tubes-I took mine off becuase I did not need them with the old props. My new props would not even turn to a plane. I put the tubes back on and it popped right up. I would personally not attempt props without tubes. They are critical in the equation. I took a tour of the Fountain Factory last year and of the boat models they were running with twin and triple ASD's , they all had these tubes.

As for the lift, Bert Kehren had his 42' on a lift in Miami. Ill attach a picture. I have plans to put mine on a lift. I orginally bought a cradle base from Harley because he said that it needed it for support. I paid him $2000. I still have it. Its a perfect form of the bottom of the hull and was used in the shop when boats came in without trailers.

Finally, on value. There have been 2 42's for sale for several months if not longer, one for 135k and the other for 175k.
I have seen a few move under the 100k price, in the 70's.
It is totally subjective to the condition, power, ect.

Ok, thats my 2 cents. Ill let you know what happens with my props.

Martin

[Swamplizard]

A freind is making me a set of ventilation snorkels - when I get them back - if they work well - I will see how much he would chanrge to make a bunch of them.....keep you posted.

[martin@kroesche]

Swamplizard:
If you look at the pictures I attached you can see the two different styles. On my boat I used stainless and then rubber hoses to each end, sucks right up the prop and comes out under the platform. My tubes are ventilated by the exhaust. Bert's has brackets on the drives and then a hose ran up through the platform. I had that previously but it did not last, therefore, the beefed up version. The type Bert has are obviously much easier. Make sure they are close to the props and the top of the tube has a way to get air, or exhaust. Its hard to belive but those tubes will slip the props immedialtey.
Stay at it and Ill do the same. If you want any additional pictures sent directly to you, I have several.

Regards,

Martin

[Steve H]

Steve:
Steve, what props do you have?

Martin

Currently 18 X 21 3B Old style Rollas. Howard Harley called then elepant ear props, Rik @ Arneson calls them chopper props. Their performance is fine. I just need a smoother and quieter prop!

Steve

[Swamplizard]

I sold my 4-blade cleavered props since they would not work for me and I am back on the hunt for some I can use as spares (at the very least) in case I hit a damn reef in the bahamas and need to limp home. For now - I'll be using my 3-blade elephants though I liked the smoothness of the 4-blades :-(

My snorkles go on this weekend....I'll post results but they will be with the old blades.

If I can't find any better ones or if the CFO wont approve the blower project then I guess I might do like Steve and buy a pair of new 4-blade bonze round eared props. Look forward to hearing Steve's results. Cheers all and good Memorial weekend - get out and burn some fuel!!!!

[martin@kroesche]

I currently have three sets of props. I do not know if you have an interest, they are 25 tooth spline so you would have to have 19 tooth spline. They are 3 blade, 24x26-they came off a 42 Harley. Let me know, thanks.

Martin

[Steve H]

I currently have three sets of props. I do not know if you have an interest, they are 25 tooth spline so you would have to have 19 tooth spline. They are 3 blade, 24x26-they came off a 42 Harley. Let me know, thanks.

Martin


I have four sets: I win:cool:

Steve

[martin@kroesche]

4 sets beats three-all I want are 2-Anyway, if anyone is interested, I want to sell one set. Steve, you might need a 5th set just in case! Just kidding-take care-Martin

[Swamplizard]

I screwed up.......but questions:
SO my 4-blade clevers couldnt get my boat on plane and I found a buyer so I sold them and will keep hunting....after work I pulled them, polished them up a bit, packed them up and I get a call from the wife that freinds are in from up north and could we give them a ride tonight? I dive in, it's getting duskish, I'm rushed...

Long story short - I put the wrong (original 3-blade) props on the wrong arneson shafts. We have a nice dinner - couple of drinks, jump on the boat, fire it up....put it in forward and it goes backwards...no worries, I'll say nothing and just shift backwards all evening since it is just a slow ICWW cruise.

So as I'm cruising along - questions start popping into my head:

1) The transmissions are borg warner 71Cs and are running backwards to make forward motion....they have a 1.5:1 reduction stamped on them yet my speed at 1000 rpm is normal (gps 8 mph at slack tide).....does that make sense?

2) So I figure, ok, maybe at 1000 rpm the difference is not too obvious. I'll see if it will get on plane and what speed I see at 3500 rpm....runs fine, planes fine, same cruise speed as in "forward". WTF?

3) So do I have straight 1:1 transmissions that are mismarked (rebuilds BTW) or does the tranny do it's reduction magic in both directions somehow?

4) Does it hurt a trans to run backwards? I had it on plane for about 2 minutes - long enough to hit cruise and trim a bit.

Wuzup with this thing? If it is a 1:1 it would explain a lot prop sizing and load-wize.

[martin@kroesche]

Those transmission will run in reverse the same as forward, there is no distinction. I learned this personally when we lost a prop offshore(a piece of floating debris destroyed it) and had two the same direction(the spare). We ran one in reverse and one in forward from 70miles offshore. As far as long term, ??????? I also tried to run the Left on Left and Right on Right versus the typical which is left on right ect. It ran the boat but the performance was off. As for your gears, my 2 cents, which is over valued @ $.02, the gear should run the same in reverse and forward.

[Steve H]

Swamp,

I would post this question on OSO. If memory serves me well today, you cannot run the Borg Warners in reverse for any length of time. Thats why you have counter rotating engines, or do you?

Steve

[Swamplizard]

yes I do have one counter rotating motor.

[martin@kroesche]

I qualified my statement with $.02 value- the transmissions I have worked with are twin disc and ZF-I dont think its good to run any in reverse the whole time but I checked with our mechanic in the back and he said Borg Warner 5000/7000 can be ran in reverse, the older ones like 71/72 1017 1018 can not be ran in reverse because its runs on rear clutches-bad- and will not cool properly-transmission cooler? So im up to $.04, see you.

[Swamplizard]

Yeah thanks guys - I confirmed that the BG71 has a 1.5:1 reduction for it's reverse by default so that is why my speedws were the same in both directions...at the tsame time I learned it is not good to run em in reverse due to smaller clutch packs for reverse - can burn them out. I only ran them in reverse for 2 minutes so should be fine. Now I know I 1.5:1 transmissions (was suspect for last couple of years). Cheers

[pizzacutter]

Prop stuff
I'll throw in my .02 cents that only has value due to experience not brains. Note that I have had my Harley almost 18 years and over 5,000 hours use. I have had the same mechanic the whole time. As far as running trannys fwd or reverse (on twin disc) makes no difference, thats how I run mine and twin disc has ok'd that. The ratios are the same. Vent tube opinion, I know that they are highly recommended and I'm sure there are vessels with certain set ups that really need them. My experience has shown little or no change with or without them. I try to keep a set on due to recommendations but they are just cheap pool hose attached with cable ties (see page 4, #58 for photo). I have lost them before for undetermined periods of time (sometimes wrapped in props) and noticed no performance change.
Props- I have been fortunate, I went the first 10+ years on the original set that HH put on the 330 hp Merlins. When I went to 350 Cats in 1994 I had minor changes made locally and ended up with a good all around ride with 40 knot top/33 knot cruise. I ran the 350 hp Cats about 9 years. During that time due to damage or curiousity I had them re-done a few times. I found no difference in a prop tune up by some well regonized surface drive guys vs. Joe's prop shop who knew almost nothing about surface drives. The numbers changed very little. Needless to say most repairs were done the cheap local way. In 2003 I did a complete drive train switch. New Cat 420hp, new trannys Twin Disc @1.16 to 1 (almost a direct drive, the previous set were 1.15 to 1) and I switched out the older SP-1000 drives for a rebuilt set of true #8's from Rik Wimp @ Arneson. New props were mandatory due to new drives. I worked the phones and trolled for opinions. Rik @ Arneson, HH, Ken Martin @ Pacific S. Drives and some other S. Fla. guys. Ken seemed the best qualified and knowledgeable so I followed his lead. He shipped me 2 sets to try. One set was the 5 blade SS Rolla cleavers that sell for about $15,000 new (he only wanted about $5,000 for them but they did not work) the other set was real close so I kept them and had Ken order me a new set from John Rose. I let Ken be the middle man, I'm sure he made a small profit but thats OK- he earned it. I ended up with 20x25 4 blade. First sea trial was good but a little short on rpms. Ken advised to make a minor adjustment which I did locally. After that, my prop problems were gone. So were the drive problems (CV joints were being replaced way too often).
Current numbes are top end 45 knot (honest 50mph on gps) cruise 38 knot.
Big load of fuel, gear and people has little effect on numbers. I have a high opinion of Ken's knowledge and John Rose's work. I hope your result is as good as mine was.
Swamp-I'm in Palm Beach now but leaving soon. Girlfriend has too many yard chores. I'll try and contact you next trip. We don't go south much in summer. The Pizza Cutter will be in full use summer/fall in Ocean City, Md. so if any of you guys are in area and want to see it go, contact me.
Martin-look for my info in e-mail, good luck with site.

[martin@kroesche]

Well- your expierence with the gear was the same as mine. I ran my boat for a long time without cavitatin tubes, but they were the wrong props. With the correct props I have to have tubes to get on a plane. On my boat it is night and day. Ken Martin built me a set of props which we have now modified 5 times locally per his recomendation and I am still not there. The best ive seen is 38.9 knots. I also have to remember that I have a very different boat from the set up (sport fish with tower, 47 l.o.a.), 2:1 gears. I'm 300 rpm short of where I need to be. It sounds like you have had the best "luck" with your boat over the years. I bought mine in 2000 and while I immensely enjoy it, i have been working on it constantly for that time period. I just don't know there is a boat to replace it with exception the Don Smith which is 800k new.

[Steve H]

I just received my bill from the local boatyard. I have hauled my boat six times in the last two months! Playing with props can drive a man down to a point where he does something totally irrational.

Like buying more props.

[martin@kroesche]

I bought a weight belt, a super nice snorkel and mask and have made the last four changes under the boat with a helper and a box of cotter pins. It takes us about 10 minutes. I have a massive craftsman ratchet and sockets needed, a long screw driver, pair of long needle nose and were off. We block the shafts and tie rope from the dock to the blades. I was apprehensive the first time and even got a scuba tank a full gear on. The last time i did it in a bathing suit and gloves.

Guess what, im still going to do something irrational! Im going to see if Don Smith can get me a set of 6 blades for it. They ran the smoothest and best so far.
Its driving me crazy.

[Steve H]

Lets see..............getting in 45 degree water with a 3-4 mph current , or paying the crane operator? Easy choice for me. Maybe during mid or late summer backed up to a beach. Maybe.

I would love some 5 or 6 blade stainless props. Just not in my budget for these engines. The longer I own this boat the more I seem to like it. It may get some new diesels before too long. It is a big commitmant to one boat though. Just gotta do it? I don't know. We'll see.

Steve

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Sorry, my ignorance about the water temp. I did get tired of paying the haul out yard a few years ago so I had a trailer built, its in some of the pictures. It was $6800, its already paid for itself. The best engines in my opinion, dollar for dollar and pound for pound are the new Cummins 485 hp, 1300 lb with gear, comes with electronic shifter and smart control. These are common rail with little smoke, high efficiency and less expensive than the other major manufactures, at least 10k less than Yanmar. If they had been out two years ago they would be in my boat v. the 440 hp Yanmar.

Take Care-
Martin

[Steve H]

I talked to the Cummins rep at the Portland Boat Show this year. I don't remember the model (QSB?) but they had a set of engines rated currently at 425hp (this was last January). They said it would be higher soon. They wanted 33,000 ea with gear. I thought that was a pretty good price. I would need drives too. #6 Arnesons won't take that kind of torque.

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
That sounds in line-he quoted me 71k for the pair with gears, electronic shifters and the smart gauges(digital). The new engines were lighter, more hp, an fuel efficient. A new set of #8's with all steering arms, etc is under 25k.

What do you think these boats are worth$$ fully refurbished from engine room up? My appraisal was 308k market value and 800k replacement?

Have a good weekend.

Martin

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Check out the www.harleypowerboats.com site-we changed it around a little and the forum should be up today. If possible, I would like to move the Harley conversations over there. I am also going to upload pictures of the various boats using HPD#'s(harley powerboat numbers) for each boat instead of names.
In the owners gallery I will post the pictures of your boats and on yours and mine I will post the refurb process, if you want. In the event I post something that someone does not want up or just doesn't like, i will glasly take it down. Anyway, check it out and if its alight i will post more pictures of your boats.

Martin

[Swamplizard]

nice job Martin - hope the site takes off for you.

[Swamplizard]

Hey Martin - Swamplizard here - I just re-read your post and I know you have the larger Harley with diesels but....:

"Guys:
With respect to the cavitation tubes-I took mine off becuase I did not need them with the old props. My new props would not even turn to a plane. I put the tubes back on and it popped right up. I would personally not attempt props without tubes. They are critical in the equation. I took a tour of the Fountain Factory last year and of the boat models they were running with twin and triple ASD's , they all had these tubes. "

I had some fabricated by a freind and will put them on my 43 with gas engines this weekend. Problem is I sold the 17.25x23 4 blade props figuring they were "not even close" to work. Hope I didnt blow it.

steve- post your numbers Bro as soon as you get those new 4 blade props.

Thanks

[martin@kroesche]

Gentlemen:
I have set up my message board on the www.harleypowerboats.com site. I will transfer some of our conversations there-please come visit and post a hello with information you want to share with other owners. Every Harley boat is given a HPB# designation. You will be cataloged accordingly and only your boat name or first name will be used. If someone or another owner wants to contact you they will request it through the site, we will generate an email to you for permission before any personal data is released.

I will post the pictures you have sent or posted on this forum in the "Owners Gallery" section, again by HPB#. It should be neat to see a collection of different boats and their progress, updates. If for any reason at all you want data or photos removed, just let us know that as well.

I need your input. Please tell me what you want to see, data,etc to make the site as informative as possible, and interesting.

See you @ www.harleypowerboats.com Thanks

Martin

[Swamplizard]

I had a buddy make these up and will try them this weekend with my chopper props. A rubber hose will go from the sloped part of the snorkle to the underneath of the dive platform. I could not go solid metal all the way due to the large exhaust cans I have under my platform....I'll tell you all how it goes.

[Swamplizard]

work work work - havnt installed them yet. Dohhhhhhh

[Swamplizard]

and one motor locked up during the no-use period of 2 weeks. Nice! Steve, get yours going yet?

[Steve H]

and one motor locked up during the no-use period of 2 weeks. Nice! Steve, get yours going yet?





Yeah its up and running good. I have ran about 3 or 4 hundred gallons thru it so far with no issues. I finally got the new props from Ellis Propellers in FL. If they perform as good as they look I will be a happy man. I have an appointment with the crane operator today. I'll let everyone know how it goes.


Sorry about your engine, have you pulled the plugs and check for hydrolock? Be sure and roll it over by hand before you do anything else. You never know, it could be just the starter.

Steve

[Swamplizard]

Nice Steve - those props look fantastic.

I pulled starter - it's fine. Pulled plugs, no water or rust or anything unusual yet motor wont turn over (even by hand with a breaker bar). Maybe I got a bad tank of gas and rings rusted???? Water seps had minor water in them.

Anyway mechanic should be over soon to check it out. I filled pistons with PB penatrant and let it sit this week.

Steve dont forget to post some numbers with the new props!

cheers

O

[Steve H]

I just tried registering on Martin's website, no luck. I keep getting errors.

I anyone else able tot register yet?

Steve

[martin@kroesche]

Sorry Guys. I have been traveling for the last several weeks. Ill check it out and see whats going on. ill have it running perfect soon. I have more data and photos to post as well, its a little time consuming.

Ill post soon

Martin

[MMNet SEA]

I had a buddy make these up and will try them this weekend with my chopper props. A rubber hose will go from the sloped part of the snorkle to the underneath of the dive platform. I could not go solid metal all the way due to the large exhaust cans I have under my platform....I'll tell you all how it goes.

Hi,
Super pictures !

What exactly does your snorkle do ?
Remove air ? Provide air ? Provide water ? Reduce cavitation? Venturi effect?

[Swamplizard]

The snorkles allow air to be sucked from above water line down to in front of the props so that they are ventilated when the boat is not on plane. It allows the props to spin easier and lets the motors get into their power rpms a bit easier to get the beast over the huimp faster. Once on plane the props should ventilate on their own.

[MMNet SEA]

SL,

Thanks, for the education ! In Malaysia a chap is building fishing boats might benefit - I will send him your pics and info.

[Swamplizard]

Steve H - where are the new numbers Bro?

[Steve H]

Hello everyone, whats the latest? Lets here from everyone on their season so far. I have been putting lots of hours on this year, I have made several trips to the coast, boat is running excellnt. Finally spending more on gas than repiars and maintenance, it's nice!

Prop testing did not go so well.

1st try: Could not get on plane, props would lose bite around 12 mph and freewheel. I tried every trick I had. No go. John Rose had me send them to a prop shop north of here. They added cup to the ends of the blades and reshaped the leading edge. I was not confident that it would change anything, but Rose wanted to give it a try.

2nd try: Still could not get on plane. So I was turning around to head back to the dock and the rpm's on the inside engine dropped. So I gunned that engine and was able to get on plane coming out of a turn! Once on plane the props worked pretty good. I was running on fumes, so I didn't spend a lot of test time taking notes on speed rpm's etc.
John Rose said he would make another set of props for me. He is the one who talked me into 17" props. I'm sure the problem is related to the wide separation between drives. This make the props unable to go deep even when trimmed down all the way, causing them to overventilate. John Rose asked me to put the props back on, get it on plane, then record all performance numbers to give him a solid basis to design the new props from. So far he has been a real stand up guy through this whole process. He is very pleasant to talk to and is truly interested in satisfying his customer, an unusual attribute in this industry.
I just loaded up with 300 gallons of fuel, so I will have to burn all but the last 40 or 50 gallons before I try retesting propellers again.

The next episode of "AS THE PROPELLER TURNS" will be back next week!

Don't miss it

Steve H

[Swamplizard]

Thanks SH - good stuff (the report - not the experience). Keep us posted. I have a locked up motor and am tired of the hole experience with these rebuilt POSs so I am going to get both motors pulled, disassembled, and rebuilt by a guy I really trust who specializes in blower and large NA motors ....probably go to 600ci and dynoed. I will also replace the transmissions with higher ratio 2:1 and hope for a few years of reliability. Keep you posted.

[Swamplizard]

Steve, what did shifting the motors rearward do for you again? Also - how far back did you move the motors (how close to the transom are they now?)?
thanks - bet you can guess what I'm thinking.

[martin@kroesche]

Guys-I need some help. I have now have three sets of props, the most recent made by Ken Martin @ Pacific drives. I have modified the props several times(like 4/5) and they are not making it. The latest prop guy(Mike Hood) said is that they are not surface props, they lack "rake". I have no idea what I need.
I borrowed a set of props from Don Smith, they were dog eared 5 blade, 22 x 30. They did not have a rooster tail and made the the boat feel very relaxed. They ran perfectly to 2700 rpm @ 33kt and then just slipped all the way to 3500 rpm. The the others are running 39kt but they will not hit the rpm's needed, Im running them in the down position and they throw a gigantic rooster tail. Ken said the rooter tail is normal and indicative of surface drives, others have told me the rooster tail is a sign of inefficiencies and im am not running the boat correctly if I have a tail.

Help. Does anyone have a set of props I can rent, for numbers purposes- I have 25 tooth spine. Ill try any size if the spine is correct.

Any input will be greatly appreciated. I have asked Don Smith as well.
Ken said he will make me another set as this has been a disaster and very costly.

Martin

[Steve H]

Steve, what did shifting the motors rearward do for you again? Also - how far back did you move the motors (how close to the transom are they now?)?
thanks - bet you can guess what I'm thinking.

My goal was to eliminate bow steer at higher speeds. This boat as you know was rigged with fixed drives from Harley. Worked fine at slow to mid cruise, but was a handful if you wanted to pick up the pace a it. WOT= white knuckles to keep it in a straight line.
I moved the engines back 18" and removed fixed drives and installed Arensons. It is now a "small" handful at WOT, much better than before and I can cruise 40+ mph and keep it in a straight line very easily.
I don't have a measurement handy, but if you look on a previous post on this thread there are some pictures of my engines with the hatch off. That should give you a good reference.
BTW I just ordered a Nautimatic Gladiator autopilot. I'm very excited to get it installed and operational. It should make long cruising alot more reaxing for me. Even with the above improvements, this boat has to be steered all the time. I'm sure it is related to the motors being so far apart.

Steve

[Swamplizard]

Thanks Steve - 40 mph cruise with stock 415 hp motors is awesome. I'll check out the photos and tweak accordingly. Be well!

[Steve H]

Guys-I need some help. I have now have three sets of props, the most recent made by Ken Martin @ Pacific drives. I have modified the props several times(like 4/5) and they are not making it. The latest prop guy(Mike Hood) said is that they are not surface props, they lack "rake". I have no idea what I need.
I borrowed a set of props from Don Smith, they were dog eared 5 blade, 22 x 30. They did not have a rooster tail and made the the boat feel very relaxed. They ran perfectly to 2700 rpm @ 33kt and then just slipped all the way to 3500 rpm. The the others are running 39kt but they will not hit the rpm's needed, Im running them in the down position and they throw a gigantic rooster tail. Ken said the rooter tail is normal and indicative of surface drives, others have told me the rooster tail is a sign of inefficiencies and im am not running the boat correctly if I have a tail.

Help. Does anyone have a set of props I can rent, for numbers purposes- I have 25 tooth spine. Ill try any size if the spine is correct.

Any input will be greatly appreciated. I have asked Don Smith as well.
Ken said he will make me another set as this has been a disaster and very costly.

Martin

Martin,

I think propellers are the most frustrating part of updating your power. It is more art than science and since every Harley is different there is no basis to start from. You mentioned earlier in this thread that you were not happy with your gear ratio. Lee is running 1 to 1 in his and seems to quite satisfied, just a thought.
I attached a picture of my old style Rolla's. They are a high rake design. The rake is how far the prop extends front to back. These props perform awsome, but are noisey. Of all the props I've tried a set of 4 blade Rolla SS Cleavers worked the best, (very quiet) but I didn't have enough power for them, would not reach minimum WOT rpm even though I hit 52mph. These are also very high rake props.

http://www.h-ri.com/Product/Propellers/Propellers-03.html

The above link talks about different types of SD props and their applications.

Steve

[martin@kroesche]

Thanks for the information. Any idea on my "rooster tail" question? The link you sent me to says that they provide free prop. analysis. I left them an email and asked them for additional information. I have 2:1 reduction as a result of the factory recommendation and their concern that the Yanmars would not have enough torque to bring the boat on a plane It pops out of the water like a Seadoo so they were obviously mistaken. I think a 1:1 is also not correct, the ratio should be 1.5:1, as it was originally. Ill cross that bridge later.
Thanks Again,

Martin

[Steve H]

Thanks for the information. Any idea on my "rooster tail" question? The link you sent me to says that they provide free prop. analysis. I left them an email and asked them for additional information. I have 2:1 reduction as a result of the factory recommendation and their concern that the Yanmars would not have enough torque to bring the boat on a plane It pops out of the water like a Seadoo so they were obviously mistaken. I think a 1:1 is also not correct, the ratio should be 1.5:1, as it was originally. Ill cross that bridge later.
Thanks Again,

Martin


My boat has always thrown a hellacious rooster. I finally had a larger swim step built to tame it down some so I could see behind me while cruising. The Arneson drives I installed have the splash plate over the props, but did'nt make much difference. Whoever is telling you that a rooster is a telltale of wrong props is full of crap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ekbppBwyA

I took the above video several years ago cruising up the Columbia River Gorge. I was moving along approx 36 or 37 mph spinning the mtrs around 3800. This is pre Arneson, pre bigger swim step. Be sure to turn up the volume. These engines sound soooooo good at cruise power!!

Steve

[Steve H]

Here is a another one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIno_IM0Y-s

Steve

[Swamplizard]

The props need to ventilate - which means half in the water and half out each revolution so having the props down is not the most efficient thing - there should be a rooster tail. I am underpowered so I get a 3-4 footer not a 8 footer like these videos. Steve I love these - tell story of how you got the view from the "beach"....too funny.

[martin@kroesche]

Ok, I understand the concept of the surface drive and the prop is 50% exposed, I also understand that the further up your drive is trimmed the more in the surface mode you are, the optimum being with the props propulsion pushing straight back. However, no one has sufficiently answered the question about it, which is why do some do it(rooster tail) and others don't? When I used Don Smith's props it almost completely eliminated a tail yet I was still running very efficient, probably more so, and the boat was completely relaxed. I also had the drives almost trimmed all the way up, with the current props with sons m,at whatever position the drives are in, it throws a monster rooster tail. Other surface drive boats do not throw a tail at all. My assumption is that it is related to the specific design of the prop. Anyway, does anyone have 25tooth splined props I can rent?

Martin

[Swamplizard]

Martin - I know you understand the surface drive concepts - sorry if I insulted you - unintentional. The props themselves are magic and mirrors to me. I have tried (gas powered) 17.5x23 4 blade clevers, couldnt get on plane. Then tried some 4 blade 17.25 x 22 and they didnt work either. Then I put my props back on which were originally 20x21 three blade round eared....had them tuned to 19.5x19.5 and they run okay and get on plane but my rpms are 1200 lower than I'd like at wot. Mystery. I found on ebay a pair of clevers - 4 blades and they are 18x20 - should be interesting to see if they work at all when I get the boat motor fixed up.

Martin, did you write before that you had the drawings for the 42 hull with all the statistics on deadrise etc? Can you post them?

Swamp

[martin@kroesche]

I wasn't even remotely insulted-just wanted to let you and whoever reads this know that I am beyond the basic points and at maximum frustration with my current situation. I agree that there is a degree of magic involved. I think I even got Ken Martin @ Pacific surface drives frustrated because he doesn't return my emails, he said he would take the props back and correct them.
So, if you have any ideas please let me know. I will attempt to post the drawings(by hand) of the 42' on the Harley Powerboats site. Ill see about doing that today if I have time. I don't know how useful it will be as they were done by hand 20 years ago.

Martin

[Swamplizard]

Martin, what I am looking for are the hull dimensions and angles for the 42. Deadrise, length at water line, that sort of thing. I have never been able to find it posted anywhere. Dont necessarily need pictures. Thanks!

[Steve H]

Martin, what I am looking for are the hull dimensions and angles for the 42. Deadrise, length at water line, that sort of thing. I have never been able to find it posted anywhere. Dont necessarily need pictures. Thanks!

24 degree deadrise

[martin@kroesche]

Sorry guys I am not faster. I have been snowed under. I will scan and post the drawings I have. You can check the Harley site under technical data in the next few days. I hope it is helpful.......if you want to send me your fax # i will fax it tomorrow in the morning.

Martin

[Steve H]

You better have a look on page 93 in the current issue of Yacht Trader. It looks as if Harley is trying to get production going again. He is offering models from 38' to 54'? The add shows CAD images of what I assume is a 38' center console. A new Harley anyone?

Steve

[martin@kroesche]

Steve:
Regrettably this is nothing new-he has been trying to get a model back in production for years. He will solicit a deposit before he gets started-
I sincerely doubt he has the ability of actually producing one from start to finish-it would nice if he could. On a note of reality, do you or anyone have any props I can borrow to test my boat? I do not care what size they are as long as they are 25 tooth spline. I am going crazy-

Martin

[Steve H]

I'm 19 spline. Otherwise I would in a Mexican Minute.

Steve

[martin@kroesche]

Gracias

Martin

[martin@kroesche]

printer version

Ferry project rides on questionable credentials

Here is a article about HH from 2001. Note that the Ferry never got built and the deposit was never returned.


Former clients of a shipbuilder who may build a high-speed ferry based in John's Pass have alleged fraud and shoddy workmanship.

By AMY WIMMER

© St. Petersburg Times, published April 29, 2001

MADEIRA BEACH -- Hubbard's Marina hopes to bring Pinellas County a new boating technology, capable of shuttling 150 people to Key West in about three hours.

But the Hubbards, who are seeking state and federal money for the multimillion-dollar project and have received endorsements from a handful of Pinellas beach cities, plan to buy the boat from a Polk County shipbuilder with a reputation for promising more than he can deliver.

Howard Harley of Harley Shipbuilders in Bartow holds patents on his ship in more than a dozen countries but has tried only once to build such a boat for a customer. Last year that first buyer, Sarasota-based Fast Cats Ferry Service, yanked its unfinished boat hulls out of Harley's Bartow facility and hired a Tampa company to finish the work.

Now Harley and Fast Cats are involved in dueling lawsuits, with Harley accusing Fast Cats of stealing his technology, and the buyer accusing the builder of fraud. Fast Cats owners say Harley claimed his ideas were polished, but much of the $1.23-million they paid him to build the boat actually went toward designing and engineering it.

Several unrelated lawsuits over the past 15 years allege shoddy workmanship on several of the dozens of more traditional boats that Harley built in the 1980s and 1990s. Some boat owners told the Times they spent thousands of dollars "de-Harleying" boats purchased from the builder, though Harley insists his record of dissatisfied customers is no different than any other small boat builder.

The Hubbards are confident in Harley -- confident enough, they say, to ask the city of Madeira Beach to help ensure that a Harley high-speed ferry will find a home along the docks of John's Pass Village, where the Hubbards operate Hubbard's Marina and the Friendly Fisherman Restaurant.

Mark Hubbard of Hubbard Express, a new company that handles the Harley boat venture, said past and current allegations against Harley do not concern him because "companies get sued in this day and age quite a bit." The Hubbards have signed a contract with Harley for construction of the 100-foot-plus ferry and paid him a $100,000 deposit.

"There are probably a half-dozen different designs that would work, but we are blessed with a designer right in Bartow, Fla., who has developed a surface-effect ship that would meet our needs very well," Hubbard said.

The surface-effect technology used in Harley's design is best described as a cross between a catamaran and a Hovercraft. The boat runs so quickly -- about as fast as a car on the interstate -- because it rides on a cushion of air.

In a recent letter to Madeira Beach City Manager Mike Bonfield, Patricia Hubbard of Hubbard Express asked the city to apply for a federal grant to fund a seaport terminal and parking garage at John's Pass Village. The seaport then would be leased back to the Hubbards for their Harley ferry, much like a baseball stadium is leased to a team owner.

Also through the grant, Madeira Beach would receive $250,000 to complete its revitalization of John's Pass Village, and at least half of the seaport parking garage would be available for public parking.

Bonfield said the City Commission likely will discuss the proposal for a private/public partnership between the Hubbards and Madeira Beach this summer.

The Hubbards need the city's support because the majority of grants they could qualify for must be sponsored by a government agency. They also are seeking private investors and other financing for the SeaTran, their name for the Harley boat.

So far, the Hubbards have been unsuccessful in obtaining government grants. The Department of Transportation did not recommend the project for funding through its Transportation Outreach Program, and state lawmakers from Pinellas have had little luck convincing the governor and Legislature to award $4-million for the ferry itself.

If the Hubbards earn state or federal money to bring the ferry to Madeira Beach, it won't be the first time Harley's surface-effect ships have won government money. The Office of Naval Research confirmed last week that it has awarded Harley four research grants totaling more than $1.1-million.

Fast Cats owners say the grants helped convince them to contract Harley to build a ferry that would shuttle passengers from Sarasota to Key West, similar to the Hubbards' plan.

But they say Harley inflated his involvement in a $3-million grant given to the University of California -- which he lists in literature promoting his business. Harley acknowledged he received only $200,000 of that grant and that he believes the university distributed the money unfairly.

The explanation, opponents say, is an example of how Harley does business. They say he promises anything from his boats that his customers request, even if he does not have the manpower or technology to deliver it, then explains away the problem when he fails to deliver on his promise.

Court records indicate Harley blamed legal judgments against him on "the judge being confused by all the information presented" or a "quirk" in Florida law.

"He will tell you anything," said Lee Williams of Ocean City, Md., mentioned to the Times by Harley as a customer with whom he had a good relationship. "I'd say, Howard, can you put a margarita mixer next to my transmission, and he'd say sure, not a problem. You'd ask him, can it mix 7.5 per hour? And he'd say, not a problem.

"I've had people call me over the years and say, "Do you have one of these Harleys? How the hell do I fix these things?' "

Some customers and colleagues speak highly of Harley boats. "I've run this one ever since '88, and I have good things to say about the boat," said Ira Chapman of West Columbia, S.C. "It's a good boat, and it handles good."

And John Hopkinson, president of Vibtech Inc., an engineering firm that does business with Harley, said he believes in the shipbuilder's technology but realizes Harley often promises too much.

"Howard's an optimist. The glass is always half full, I guess. He is optimistic about doing things, and I think in his business, he has to be," Hopkinson said. "There've always been issues with Howard being a shrewd businessman, but he's also an entrepreneur and a survivor.

"I just need to be a little more shrewd in my dealings with him. He drives a hard bargain because he doesn't have a lot of cash. It's a tough thing to be in business for yourself."

Harley has been through tough times. Fiberfloat, the company that built the v-hull boats the shipbuilder is best known for, filed bankruptcy in 1996. It went through a reorganization and is still in business.

In the bankruptcy filings, Harley cited a series of legal judgments against Fiberfloat as part of the reason for filing bankruptcy. He also noted that a disgruntled customer, Carmen Gricco Jr., had made things more difficult for him by launching a negative advertising campaign, which included hiring a banner plane with an anti-Harley message to fly over the Fort Lauderdale Boat Show, where Harley had an exhibit.

Gricco's attorney in that case, Peter Commette, said he still gets occasional phone calls from Harley customers who feel slighted by the boat builder. And he doesn't mince words about his attitude toward the businessman.

"If Howard Harley told me it was sunny outside," he said, "I would go and check it out."

Since finding a new builder for the Fast Cats boat, owner Mark Antos has adjusted the ship slightly and applied for his own patent. Harley insists it was Antos' constant retooling of the ship that caused delays and forced him to work on the boat's design instead of its construction.

Fast Cats does not hide the fact that it would like to build a ferry for Hubbard, which brings its motives for aggressively combating Harley into question.

"They're trying to see if they can take this order away from me," Harley said. "They were extremely unhappy at first, but now they're trying to build a boat for Hubbard."

The Hubbards stress that they refuse to buy Harley's first surface-effect ship so they have proof that the technology will work. They hope he will build one for someone else first, namely a South American country that has looked into purchasing a boat from Harley.

In the meantime, Harley is eager to have a buyer for the technology he spent years perfecting.

"This, I am confident, will have no bearing on Hubbard's ability to get funding," he said. "Somebody just has to hear my side of this."

-- Times researcher Kitty Bennett contributed to this report.

[Steve H]

Hey! they quoted Lee. The guy in SC isn't going to bad mouth a boat he has had for sale for year


Lee you need to get some pics of your boat on Martins web site

[martin@kroesche]

Send in the pics, I want them all!

Martin

[Swamplizard]

Steve - ever get those new props to work?

[martin@kroesche]

Guys-
Did you notice in the Harley Boat ad that the boat in the picture is a toy model? If you look closely that is a Ken doll at the helm. Hmmm. I want one!
Hey, I am attaching a photo shop picture of my boat with a hardtop. I think I am going to build it. Since all of our boats are the same dimensions, If anyone if interested I will have a mold for it-check it out and please give me your opinions. If I add it I will have a very aerodynamic half tower to the top with a full drive station-
One picture of the boat currently and the other is with a hard top(still express).

Still looking for some prop help!

Martin

[pizzacutter]

I saw the toy in the Harley ad in Saltwater-Fisherman mag. full page ad is not cheap, I guess he's baaaack. Sorry I hadn't been on the site or sent photos to new site (nice site). Very busy summer (and fall) Pizza Cutter running great, my son and I are back on the Chesapeake working on our 2nd home, 15 mile run to Tangier Island, lots of building materials, lots of trips, it's been a gorgeous Sept. here. Can't say enough good stuff about the 3126 cats (420 hp) run'em hard and put'em up wet. Lot's of use this summer with 2 repairs. A starter solenoid and changed an alt. belt, thats it (plus change impeller on margarita mixer). I saw one photo of the white w/red stripe 42 with arch, is that yours swamp? I drove that boat @ HH's in 1989 and saw it 4 sale in FT. Laud. a few years later. Beautiful boat with the euro windsheild. It had big 454's @ the time. Martin I checked some props for you. I am running 20x25 now, note my rpm @ 2300 cruise, 2850 WO- tranny ratio 1.15 to 1. They really have a great cruise, lots of rooster tail, very sensative to trim, especailly above 40 kts. I can't loan you those for a while because of the job I'm on but you are welcome to try my spares that are 22.5x24. I have not used them for a couple of years but from what I remember they had similar performance numbers (keep in mind that both of my sets have had minor mods done locally). If you want to try them e-mail my assistant Susan at dominosusan@comcast.net and let her know how you would want to ship, etc. I'd be happy to loan to you. You should run the scenario past Ken @ Pacific Sur. Drive before you spend a bunch on freight, he should know if they are even close. I'll try to get photos on HPB site soon, I've got a lot of them over the last 18 years!

[martin@kroesche]

Pizza Cutter:
Thanks for that. Are they 25 tooth splines? If so, I ill take you up on your offer. I have a set of 24x26x3 which did not grab enough, the 5 blades will probably perform different. What did you think of my hardtop idea?
Let me know and if the props are 25tooth then i will want to borrow them for a few test runs.

Regards,

Martin

[Swamplizard]

yeah pizza - that's mine. Blew a motor so she is sitting behind the house until the funds can be musterred up. Going to rebuild both motors since I dont trust them anymore....wish I could swing for a pair of diesels but not this time around.

[Steve H]

Guys-
Did you notice in the Harley Boat ad that the boat in the picture is a toy model? If you look closely that is a Ken doll at the helm. Hmmm. I want one!
Hey, I am attaching a photo shop picture of my boat with a hardtop. I think I am going to build it. Since all of our boats are the same dimensions, If anyone if interested I will have a mold for it-check it out and please give me your opinions. If I add it I will have a very aerodynamic half tower to the top with a full drive station-
One picture of the boat currently and the other is with a hard top(still express).

Still looking for some prop help!

Martin

Martin,

I like it! I think it fits the boat perfectly.

Steve

[pizzacutter]

swamp, before you write off the diesel idea completely try to price out rebuilt cat 3126's. I only paid $36,200 for a pair brand new in 04. I know new prices are way up but I would trust a re-man from the right dealer. I think there are a few around. Do you ever read Boat & Harbors?, a yellow newspaper looking publication, lot of stuff like that in there. You should alos call my dealer Tim @ T&S 410-968-2970 he gets all kinds of deals coming thru, does a lot of volume. I'm just trying to give you input from over 13 years of heavy use using only 2 sets of the cats and I think I have several years left in these. You just don't have to work on them much at all and there are dealers & parts everywhere.
Martin, the hardtop looks cool and would be comfy in certain weather. We are open boaters however. Even though I've got a nice convertible top with curtains it is rarely up and when it is it is ususally when trolling on hot summer days. My girlfriend recently bought a 24' Scout Abaco (nice, similar to a Grady-White, really beefy) with a factory hard-top that was gorgeous. She kept the top on only a few months and paid to have it professionally removed and replaced w/convertiable soft top. I guess we want to be wrinkly when we get old. My props are 25 spline but I have #8 drives, I thought you had #10. Same shaft size? You can ask Rik @ Arneson what the specs are on my drives I just got them from him (to replace my old Sp-1000's) about 3 years ago. If you think they will fit just and want to proceed just e-mail Susan and we can put it together. Would want them back by mid-december when boat is shipped to S. Fla., might even have you ship them to Palm Beach if shipping costs are any less (I doubt it).

[Steve H]

swamp, before you write off the diesel idea completely try to price out rebuilt cat 3126's. I only paid $36,200 for a pair brand new in 04. I know new prices are way up but I would trust a re-man from the right dealer. I think there are a few around. Do you ever read Boat & Harbors?, a yellow newspaper looking publication, lot of stuff like that in there. You should alos call my dealer Tim @ T&S 410-968-2970 he gets all kinds of deals coming thru, does a lot of volume. I'm just trying to give you input from over 13 years of heavy use using only 2 sets of the cats and I think I have several years left in these. You just don't have to work on them much at all and there are dealers & parts everywhere.
Martin, the hardtop looks cool and would be comfy in certain weather. We are open boaters however. Even though I've got a nice convertible top with curtains it is rarely up and when it is it is ususally when trolling on hot summer days. My girlfriend recently bought a 24' Scout Abaco (nice, similar to a Grady-White, really beefy) with a factory hard-top that was gorgeous. She kept the top on only a few months and paid to have it professionally removed and replaced w/convertiable soft top. I guess we want to be wrinkly when we get old. My props are 25 spline but I have #8 drives, I thought you had #10. Same shaft size? You can ask Rik @ Arneson what the specs are on my drives I just got them from him (to replace my old Sp-1000's) about 3 years ago. If you think they will fit just and want to proceed just e-mail Susan and we can put it together. Would want them back by mid-december when boat is shipped to S. Fla., might even have you ship them to Palm Beach if shipping costs are any less (I doubt it).

That top would work very well for the type of boating in my area. I do alot of boating in the winter. It doesn't get that cold usually, but it rains alot. In the summer I still leave the bimini on all the time. I'm a shade worshiper these days anyway. as long as there is large opening windows i don't see a big problem with getting too hot. You could always install a huge a/c system if needed. If Martin decides to go ahead with this project I will follow it very closely.

I have researched the heck out of repoweing with diesels. You are right that the cat 3126 420 hp makes the most sense. just not sure I love the boat enough to keep it for another 5 or more years. I have already owned longer than any other boat ever (7 years). I usually get board after a couple of years and get something else. I have enjoyed working on this old girl over the last several years though. There always seems to be another project to do on her. Currently I'm installing a auto pilot on her. Just got all the components installed and rigged. trying to get all the lines bled now then I can start sea trials.

[Swamplizard]

Thanks for the inputs on the diesels - rough stage in our lives, two weddings, one more year of college tuitions, and the inevitable home things that keep breaking...we're broke ;-)

The CAT 420s give you what kind of a cruise speed?

Steve post how that autopilot works out for you....cool project.

[Swamplizard]

Do you gents think a pair of:

JOHN DEERE 6068T – M5s

Rated at 300 HP but 800 ft/lbs or torque woukd move my Harley 42 better than my big block gas 502s?

[Steve H]

Thanks for the inputs on the diesels - rough stage in our lives, two weddings, one more year of college tuitions, and the inevitable home things that keep breaking...we're broke ;-)

The CAT 420s give you what kind of a cruise speed?

Steve post how that autopilot works out for you....cool project.

I bought the TR-1 Gladiator. It costs about twice as much as most, but I have read alot of good press about it. The main reason I went with this particular unit was the fact that it did not need a rudder input. This would have made a big project even bigger. As it is I did not even take the boat out of the water to install it. Just had to "T" into the current hydraulic steering lines and install the components. The programing can be intense, but once you figure out the basics it's not too bad.


So far it is the coolest gadget on the boat. Infinitely adjustable. All of the gains can be adjusted on the fly. Holds a course alot better than I can. I'm getting it dialed into my GPS currently. Very very happy with it.

Steve H

[Swamplizard]

Anyone need these before I go eBay?

[Steve H]

Anyone need these before I go eBay?


What were those hinges used for?

Steve

[Swamplizard]

Oversized hinges were used for the transom door on my Superstar 42 1988.

[Steve H]

Oversized hinges were used for the transom door on my Superstar 42 1988.


Oh that's right. Those are monsters.

How is your engine project coming along?

Steve

[Swamplizard]

what engine project...... :confused:

kidding aside I have taken a break from fighting with the boat...she is floating behind the house...a diver visits her monthy...I fire up the running good engine weekly but I have not done anything. Tuitions, job changes, weddings, and other things are all taking priority over the boat.

I'll get to it when the $$$s are available. Should have sold it when it was running....

[pizzacutter]

anybody got a bow thruster on a harley 42? I bought a new design model made by Vetus during the Annapolis boat (special pricing) for about $3,200, in the box. Supposed to have more power and quieter than previous version. Still deciding whether to tackle install myself or farm it out. I am curious if somebody has one and if so how they like it. The 42' with pointy nose and Arnesons make for for some tough times docking in close quarters, especially with a stiff wind! I'll post up progress on the job & look for any input you guys have. Auto-pilot- somebody noted a recent Harley/Arneson install with a Galdiator tr-1, hows that rig working out? I checked it out on web-site, looks very nice. That is the next gadget I want to put on, any input appreciated.

[Steve H]

anybody got a bow thruster on a harley 42? I bought a new design model made by Vetus during the Annapolis boat (special pricing) for about $3,200, in the box. Supposed to have more power and quieter than previous version. Still deciding whether to tackle install myself or farm it out. I am curious if somebody has one and if so how they like it. The 42' with pointy nose and Arnesons make for for some tough times docking in close quarters, especially with a stiff wind! I'll post up progress on the job & look for any input you guys have. Auto-pilot- somebody noted a recent Harley/Arneson install with a Galdiator tr-1, hows that rig working out? I checked it out on web-site, looks very nice. That is the next gadget I want to put on, any input appreciated.

Lee,

I have been looking at bow thrusters for a long time. Just this morning as a matter of fact! I too have been in tough docking situations because of wind, current, mixed in with a long light weight boat and surface drives.
The only thing holding me back on the install is the weather. It is very cold and I rented out my last storage to someone else. A soon as it warms up some I just may tackle it too.
After researching this I have found that the depth of the thrust tube should equal its diameter, other wise it may suck air. We also need it as far forward as possible to give the thruster maximum amount of directional leverage. This is not an issue in most boats that are very wide and the bow has a blunt entry. We are not so lucky. With a slender narrow nose and a sharp V, getting the thruster forward is tough. We will have to bring it a little further back than we want but it should still work fine. I think this would put it aft of the V berth bulkhead. Which in turn would cause the thruster motor to protrude up from the flooring, even with the motor mounted on its side. This in my opinion would not be an issue. I would simply build a box over it and use it as a step to get into the v berth. I think it would look very nice if it was designed well.

Now having said all of this, I must admit that I have not measured the boat out of the water. I have just eyeballed it while it is in the water. So I may be singing a new song after I measure it out high and dry. Please keep us posted with lots of pictures!


I did install the Gladiator TR1 last fall. It is by far the coolest boat gagdet I have ever bought. It makes long boat trips much safer and enjoyable for the helmsman.
The programing can be a challenge. I still don't have mine dialed in all the way yet. Currently it will hold a compass course or GPS course perfectly. But I haven't got it following a GPS route very well yet. It's close but still needs dialed in some more. It will have to wait for warmer weather.
I did have some install issues. First test drive boat would not steer from the helm unles it was turned very quickly. The working pressure of the Arensons was too high for the AP pump. It was letting pressure bypass the steering ram through the pump. So I installed the verado check valve in the system backwards isolating the pump from the helm pressures.(It's actually designed to isolate the helm from the pump pressure pulses because the Mercury helm is not very robust) That cured the problem.

When I purchased mine you had a choice of two pumps. "High volume, low pressure" or "low volume high pressure" (verado version). Now they offer "high volume high pressure" If I was doing it again, I would purchase the most recent pump. I may get one anyway for a spare. I have a single steering ram so the volume was not a big deal. Lee I think you have two so the high volume pump would be a good idea.

Back in October I brought the boat back up from the coast after crabbing season was about done. It takes about two and a half hours. I did not touch the helm from the time I left the Astoria Mooring Basin until I pulled into my boathouse in Longview. Just had the remote controll to make corrections occasionally or make a turn. I really like looking behind me and seeing a nice straight wake. I highly recomend it. You can call me if you want to discuss it further.

Steve Hixson
360-423-0890

[Swamplizard]

Dude - cool toy! Nice write up too

[pizzacutter]

I went to Miami boat show lst week. I confirmed all the materials and delievery of the bow thurster. It is a 7" tube vetus. It is correct that it will need to be installed aft of the v-berth bulkhead. I have already stripped out that section of the cabin and put in a PVC template tube. The good news is that if you lay the motor down horizontal it will only be a few inches higher than existing floor. I tried to track down the gladiator auto pilot crew at the show but found that they have been bought by Garmin. One of the guys there was previously with gladiator and now is a consultant for Garmin. He has some concerns about the application on the Arnesons, something to do with pressure and volume. He is doing some research for me. He also suggested another auto pilot made by Course-Master. So I am still doing research. I know Steve had indicated that his Gladiator was working fine, that is usually the best test, install it and try it.
Swamp I am still in Palm Beach for a while if you have time I might could swing by and look at your boat. Post me a message to let me know if it would work for you.

[Swamplizard]

back in the press but making flats fishing inverted V's?:

INNOVATION

In Bartow, the seat of landlocked Polk County, Howard D. Harley believes he has come up with a more fuel efficient hull design for Florida's popular flatboats an inverted V shape he says uses up to 40 percent less fuel than others its size.

Harley is president and chief executive of Bartow-based Harley Shipbuilding Corp., which specializes in surface effect ships and luxury yachts million- and multimillion- dollar vessels.

These days Harley has bought another boat company, N-V Boats Inc., and is tooling up for production of its new lightweight 19-footlong, 7-foot-wide flatboat targeted at freshwater anglers. The inverted- V hull design allows the boat to navigate in shallow water, so Harley says the boat should prove useful in the Everglades and the Keys. A similar size flatboat with an outboard engine can weigh 1,300 pounds and up, but Harley's boat (its hull is formed in a vacuum mold with vacuum infusion building process, and made out of Kevlar, Vinylester resin and Airlite foam-core material) weighs in at a mere 850 pounds with an engine. It will be sold as a package deal. With upholstered seating, all the necessary gauges and a mounted engine, Harley says his boat is moderately priced at about $30,000 and he may even throw in a trailer.

The inverted-V provides for outstanding stability, 2-3 can stand on one side with practically no list; the boat can idle in as little as six inches of water and, of very interesting importance, the prop is much higher than conventional V-hull boats, up to as much as 10 inches higher with jackplate, and will get on plane with the jackplate in the full up position! This means getting in and out of much shallower water than conventional flats boats.

Harley intends to give buyers a choice of two engines. A two-stroke outboard (he prefers the Evinrude E-Tec outboards because they are the most quiet and fuel efficient he has found) or an innovative efficient 88 horsepower, 760 cubic-inch two-stroke inboard motor. The latter is a personal watercraft engine built by an Asian manufacturer, but Harley wouldn't say who. A shaft linked to the inboard engine turns inside a tube extending outside the stern under a small swim platform with sideskirts. The shaft turns a four-blade propeller.

The boat's inverted-V design allows the propeller to sit higher than the two bottom edges of the hull, Harley says, allowing the boat to navigate in water as shallow as six inches, and as an added benefit, keeping the propeller far above most marine animal and plant life.

Harley says his boat can reach speeds of up to 55 mph using a four-stroke or two-stroke Evinrude E-Tec of 130 hp. And over 50 mph with a 115 horsepower outboard. But, Harley says the lighter, quieter, efficient 88 horsepower inboard two-stroke can reach a not-tooshabby wide-open speed of 45 mph, and cruise up to 40 mph.

Harley figures at a most efficient cruising speed of 26 mph, the twostroke inboard would get between 7 and 8 miles per gallon. He says other heavier 19-foot flatboats using outboard engines are typically only getting about 5 to 5.5 mpg at cruise.

To learn more about Harley's fuelsaving boat and engine, call Harley Boats

[Swamplizard]

What's new boys and girls? Any Harley-related updates for the group?

[Steve H]

Not much going on here in Jamaica! I won't be home for a week or so. I sold my boathouse. Still waiting on the permit for the new one. So the boat is moored outside for the first time since I have owned. I'm not too happy about it. But the buyer of my house had cash, so it was a no brainer. Boat is running good. I have a boat trip planed out to the coast in a couple of weeks. I'm really looking forward to it. I hope the weather is good.

Steve

[Swamplizard]

post some pictures of your trip Steve! I just survived my child's wedding and my youngest finishes college soon so perhaps some cash will be made available to fix the motors up and maybe even look into adding teak like you did to the interior floor (nice!).

Have a red stripe on me!

[pizzacutter]

I havn't had anytime to log on as the bowthruster project turned into another long one. once the cabin and v-berth areas were stripped including the floors, upholstry, etc. I begain to find items that needed upgrades-replacements. Some due to poor construction but many just normal re-furb due to wear/tear or just becasue better products were availbale and it seemed like a good time to do it. although the extras went on and on (new upholstry, stereo upgrades, new lighting cabin & head& engine room, forward bildge pumps-floats-switches, lots of wiring, LOTS of f'glass work, some guages, freshen engines for season, belts-zincs-filters, etc., fuels line upgrades, etc.) the real beast of a job was the bow-thruster. It took an insane amount of time for the f'glass work. Some I did myself but I had a really good helper to finish it off. It is all done now and i got my girlfriend cleaning the cabin plus doing all the linen stuff, galley, etc. Ready for a test drive any time. I'll post the results. They better be good! I got lots of pictures of the project but I have to wait for susan to return to work to post them. I'm no good with that stuff and don't have time to learn. maybe next week she can do it.

[Steve H]

post some pictures of your trip Steve! I just survived my child's wedding and my youngest finishes college soon so perhaps some cash will be made available to fix the motors up and maybe even look into adding teak like you did to the interior floor (nice!).

Have a red stripe on me!

Swamp,

I starting to feel your pain as far as the college thing goes. I have my oldest daughter at WWSU this year. Next year it looks like my boy will be at WSU. So cash flow will be a little on the low side. Hopefully no big projects this year and all I have to worry about is fuel.

Steve

[Steve H]

I havn't had anytime to log on as the bowthruster project turned into another long one. once the cabin and v-berth areas were stripped including the floors, upholstry, etc. I begain to find items that needed upgrades-replacements. Some due to poor construction but many just normal re-furb due to wear/tear or just becasue better products were availbale and it seemed like a good time to do it. although the extras went on and on (new upholstry, stereo upgrades, new lighting cabin & head& engine room, forward bildge pumps-floats-switches, lots of wiring, LOTS of f'glass work, some guages, freshen engines for season, belts-zincs-filters, etc., fuels line upgrades, etc.) the real beast of a job was the bow-thruster. It took an insane amount of time for the f'glass work. Some I did myself but I had a really good helper to finish it off. It is all done now and i got my girlfriend cleaning the cabin plus doing all the linen stuff, galley, etc. Ready for a test drive any time. I'll post the results. They better be good! I got lots of pictures of the project but I have to wait for susan to return to work to post them. I'm no good with that stuff and don't have time to learn. maybe next week she can do it.

Looking forward to the pics and the report after it has been tested.

[pizzacutter]

I got susan to attach 5 pics re: bowtruster install. As you can see it was no small task. I could only attach 5 photos, I have lots more. If anybody wants them let me know and I could mail them out (I'm better @ us mail than e-mail anyway). You will note on #1944 a 2" riser in the forward 1/2 of the front cabin floor. This was not necessary as I could have laid the motor perfectly horizontal and kept the floor flat. I raised the motor slightly because I wanted the floor elevated. it allows for ventilation to the thruster motor compartment. I was going to test this past weekend but weather was bad and I was busy. Maybe this weekend. I'll post results asap. Susan is also going to try to post a few photos on the harleypowerboat site. Take a look and see if she is successful.

[ratrace2]

the fiberglass and structural improvements done to this boat are quite extensive. i'll try to make a long (and expensive) story as short as possible. once the boat was properly rigged with reliable cat engines in the early 1990's we started to run 60 miles each way to fishing grounds, somtimes 3-4 times a week. after encountering foul weather a few times we started to notice structural failures thru-out. ruptured fuel tanks, cracked flooring, and then the big one, the entire bottom laminate began to peel off. after consulting with some experts i ended up hiring a naval architect with knowledge in these type vessels (he had designed intrepids). he recommended a complete gutting of the cabin and engine room including tanks, engines, drives, etc. we actually took a chain saw to the cabin sofas until we were down to the bare hull. then a complete set of stringer/frames were built from the bow back to the engine room, including a strong "ring frame" just forward of the galley cabinets to reinforce the entire system. then the boat was flipped upside down and placed back on the trailer(see photo). we then spent a month or more removing poorly laminated f'glass and covering the entire bottom with 2 heavy coats of epoxy and cloth. then we flipped it back over and went into a lenghty re-install of all machinery & hardware improving the workmanship in any area we could. it is much stiffer now and probably heavier. it gets weighed frequently as it is on a crane 2-3 times a year that has a computer scale (the lifting device weight must be deducted from the total lift weight, along with fuel, etc.) i often ask the crane operator to give me the weights and he does, but honestly i've never made accurate notes. my best guess is between 16,000-18,000lbs dry but i might be off by a bit. hope that the description of the work doesn't scare the h out of you but that is what we actually did, plus we have done minor/major improvements to the 1994 job on & off during the last 12 years. i would point out that given the heavy use that we dish out i think any vessel would have required some of the repairs & upgrades done, but having started out with a harley made the ordeal even worse. the good news... my son & i use the boat a lot and we really like the finished product (the 5,000 hours of use include some real good times) hope this info is helpful & you are able to retrieve some photos
Guys,
Anyway, anywhere I could get a "look' or "pic", or blue prints of the
stringer/frames job, and ring frame layout for the Harley 42'. I would really like to study the design and the way the whole thing goes together..

[pizzacutter]

bowthruster lift off a few hours ago. so far so good. see no problems and no leaks! performance is awesome, it spins the bow over very quickly. only down side is noise and water turbulance (however you do not notice it from the helm with engines running) but when using the remote control (which is a real cool feature) the water stream is like a jet drive, lots of flow. Keep in mind that this is the all new 6 blade prop that was supposed to be quieter than the old 5 blades. I am very impressed and feel like I got my money's worth and have only used it less than 1 hour. Should make using the boat more fun. maybe will make me forget about fuel costs, if even for a few moments.

[Steve H]

bowthruster lift off a few hours ago. so far so good. see no problems and no leaks! performance is awesome, it spins the bow over very quickly. only down side is noise and water turbulance (however you do not notice it from the helm with engines running) but when using the remote control (which is a real cool feature) the water stream is like a jet drive, lots of flow. Keep in mind that this is the all new 6 blade prop that was supposed to be quieter than the old 5 blades. I am very impressed and feel like I got my money's worth and have only used it less than 1 hour. Should make using the boat more fun. maybe will make me forget about fuel costs, if even for a few moments.

Awsome, Awsome, !!

You are definitely a man of action. I have been wanting to do this project for years, now you have it in the water and running. Beautiful cabin by the way. It looks very well done.

What model of thruster did you use? What was the rated thrust? What diameter of tube? How much water over the top of the tube do you have?

Thanks,

Steve

[Swamplizard]

Wow - nice thruster! I know Steve is going to be up nights trying to plan one for his boat .... sweet toy!

[pizzacutter]

hey steve and swamp- thanks for compliments on thruster job (and cabin steve) the cabin is real simple not many gadgets- note that the cabinet doors are just white starboard secured with lock/lever mechanisms, no hinges. fancy teak doors are in my attic, I just coudn't keep hinges from breaking. I get more usable storage this way too. The thruster is vetus 6 blade #75. The tube is just over 7" (some kind of metric measurment). I have 3"-4" of water coverage over it sitting still. All figures are metric but I think these are close to our units, thrust 187lb, hp 6, weight 57lb. I used it again yesterday to return the boat to trailer, it really made that job easier. my girl friend can use the remote as I approach the trlr to line it up. that was optional by the way, about $500. Whole package including tax was under $4,000 (installation, batteries, cables, etc. is a whole other story) but I still think it was a bargain. Go ahead and have at it. I can send you exact dimentions where I cut the hole and how the mount was fabricated. you'll be done in no time.

[Swamplizard]

Is this new or old?

http://www.harleyboats.com/

[Steve H]

Is this new or old?

http://www.harleyboats.com/

That would be new

[Swamplizard]

4 MPG and toyota based diesel with Harley surface drives??? Howard has been busy.

[Swamplizard]

My 42 foot sport cruiser is destined for a repower. I can't afford the new lightweight diesels such as Yanmars or smaller Cummins and would prefer to use the most reliable, cost effective, and parts available "old school" diesels I can find in the 400HP range. The engine room is under the cockpit and is 10x10 in size. I would also need gear recommendations for an environment that needs NO down angle (arneson drives) straight transmissions.

This model of boat has been sold (in the late 80's) with the following options:

CAT 3208s 425HP
Big Block Gas engines 330HP or 400HP or 500HP
GM 6V53 at 400HP
DD671 485HP
Volvo 71CD 450HP
MTI and 400HP
Volvo 71CDs at 500 or 550HP

Of the above - which ones would you experts consider the best value for what I am trying to accomplish?
Which ones are most available as remanufactured or low hour take outs?
Which ones are the simplest to work on?
I boat in SE Florida and Bahamas mostly (parts?)


I'll post results when I get em.

[pizzacutter]

Hey Swamp, I know I sound like a broken record but I would invest my time in looking for a set of used/re-man caterpilllar in-line 6 cylinders. They have been using this block for the 300hp to 450hp since the early 90's. except for some minor turbo problems (that cat corrected early on) they have been very reliable. I see lots of them in my area, sport and commercial. As I mentioned before my first set of 350hp's were installed in 1994, ran 3500 hours in 9 years with very little repair costs (typical starters, etc) When I removed them I offered them for $15,000 (both). I had many lookers, one buyer insisted on oil analysis before buying. The results showed some chrome (supposedly from worn rings). The Cat dealer said he thought they were in good shape and the fact that I had not changed oil for 100+ hours was part of the problem. The buyer insisted that they be re-built, we agreed to share the cost. It was very low, they just did rings and main bearings (no head or turbo work). I think I paid about $1,500. Which means I got $13,500 for both and I only paid $30,000 9 years before. The buyer still uses them for offshore fishing today and they are almost 15 years old. My new ones are same block installed in 2003 (5 years this month) 420hp each. They now have about 750 hours and I have had no repairs.
My dealer says he gets $13,500 each for re-man 350hp's and $15,500 for 420hp's. The ideal tranny for this application with arneson #8's is twin-disc 5061. I am sure used prices are much less than re-mans but the product is more risky as well. Just thought I would share again. Good luck in the search.
I think you said you were in S Fla and I wanted to see your boat. Our 2nd home is in N Palm Bch but I am back north for the summer. If I get back down I will contact you to have a look-see. I had Susan attach some photos of the cat engines being installed. Also note the floor support that I had fabricated, a much needed item for the Harley floor system.

[Swamplizard]

Thanks PizzaCutter - I appreciate the time and effort you put inot your posts. I posted a similar question on a diesel boat site and got very odd mixture of answers.

[pizzacutter]

havn't seen many posts from you guys lately- like everybody, probably hate the fuel prices so it's hard to write about what you aint doing. I had been laying low most of the summer using the Mako and letting the Harley sit behind the house in the slip. I did venture out to the Chesapeake last week for a 6 day trip, probably 25 hours or so running time and a bunch of ports. Everything running great, especially bow-thruster, that thing is the real deal! I probably over use it like a new toy, but it is so effective that you can't help it. No more swinging the steering wheel full over as fast as possible to get in or out of a tight spot. It was a bummer to see so few power boats out and so many blow boats around. It used to be fun to zoom by them, but I know they're laughing thier ass off when they tell their crew how much I'm spending to do it. I left the Pizza Cutter @ the Cat dealer for new water pumps & heat exchanger cleaning. It's been 5 years since i installed and never serviced cooling system. I'll post service costs when I pick it up. Hey Martin I think that Susan sent photo & tech info to Harley site. Did you recieve? Good luck, hope you guys can keep the old Harley's going.

[Steve H]

I have been doing a little boating here and there. Mostly hasslin with the Army Corp of Engineers over a permit to relocate my boathouse from Portland OR to Longview WA. You would think that I am building a nuclear powerplant by all of the red tape that I have to cut through. The part that really torqued me was being forced to hire a Marine Biologist to write a endangered species impact statement. All of this to move a boathouse from one place to another. Rediculous.
Anyway enough of that. Boat has been running good. I just changed oil and filters on both engines and genset. Did it myself. It was fun, but my back just can't take that kind of stuff like it used too. Getting ready to head up stream to Kennewick, WA in the boat for the unlimited hydros. It's about a 700 mile round trip. Can't wait to see the gas bill for that. It's a great trip. It can be hard on the body though. The water gets huge in places where the river narrows up and the wind goes ballistic. One thing I'm never worried about though is the integrity of the Harley hull. This will be trip number five for this boat. I know my body always cries uncle long before the boat will.

I still have not recieved any props from John Rose at Ellis Propeller. He is dicking me around big time. The first set did not work because against my better judgment I let him make me a set of 17" props instead of 19's. They would not get me on plane. They just free wheeled. He told me he would make me another set. Hasn't happened! He has told me that the props have been cast, machined, and are ready for finishing. Then he has said I will ship them this week. Over and over. It is getting very frustrating. A local boat builder was getting the same song and dance from him. He finally got on a plane and personally pursuaded John to pony up. He got his props, brought them home as checked baggage and was able to deliver his 750,000 dollar boat. I am going to call him one more time and see what knid of bull story he has got this time. Then I'm open to suggestions. I don't want to start a smear campaign, but it's not off the table.

Anyway,

Good running boat= Happy Steve (Even if I'm a little cranky sometimes)

Hope you Harley owners are having a good time using your boats

Steve Hixson

[Swamplizard]

Mine is still busted - probably a good thing considerring the price of fuel these days. I did however find a counter-rotating power steering pump finally and ordered it. This way I can at least have a one-legged trawler to go camping on and it will allow me to take the boat areas that are more conducive to cleaning the bottom....canals a bit nasty in the summer down here in FL.

I also have a buddy with a 2 ton davit who suggested I pull the motor myself and see if I can figure out what locked it up. He is very mechanical and is 90% sure I dropped a valve. Only way to know is to pull the heads which I can't do in the boat since I can't get the manifolds off (broken bolts and rusted/rounded heads on a few - thanks to my previous mechanic.

So instead of boating, I have been working long hard hours and taking motorcycle rides on weekends with my spouse. We spent 5 days in the NC smoky mountains and it was fantastic riding the Tail of the Dragon - 318 tunrs in 11 miles and the 6,000 foot high skyways. Good stuff!

Steve post some pictures Bro. If the prop guy is local to me I can go visit and ask him nicely what is up for you.....I can let him know I will be in the market with my wanting some props made in a few months....might help.

Happy 4th to all!

[pizzacutter]

Just got the bill from the dealer. My engines are just over 5 years old (750hrs) and this is my first service except for oil change once a year (about $200 each doing it myself) zincs once a year (about $125) and 3 or 4 alternator belts. The cats have big alternators to power intake air heaters that draw alot of juice (the alternators wail when they kick on & off), they are not glow plugs but rather something that heats the air. This trip was for new water pumps, remove heat exchangers, power steering coolers, tranny coolers, and acid wash them. replace all zincs, fresh coolant, few misc. items like hoses clamps, etc. Cost- parts $640, Labor 14 hours @ $65 hour= $910, Total bill $1550. Not too bad considering it is the first big bill I have had and it was for routine service and not a breakdown. Also about the same cost as a fill up of diesel fuel.

[Swamplizard]

Hello Gents & Ladies,

Does anyone know if the Gas version of the Harley 42 can be lifted by a 16,000 lb hydrohoist lift? Time sensitive - might have an inexpensive and healthy one avaialable but it wont last and since I only have one motor and no power steering, I can't really "try" it first.

Thanks!

[Steve H]

My 12,000lb unit would not lift mine. But it was close. I think a 16,000 would do it as long as you were not heavy on fuel.

Steve

[Swamplizard]

Steve H Thanks Man!

I needed a quick answer - this sounds promissing.

Keep you posted - cheers!

[Swamplizard]

Does anyone have one Arneson Prop Adapter which mates 19-spline ASD8 shafts to Mercury #6 Speedmaster Propeller and the Mercury #3 and #4 drives also?

I would like to borrow or "rent it" for a week so I can have a bunch of them made here locally by a freind of mine. $250 a pop is rediculous. Lender will get a discount on a set....;-)

[Swamplizard]

Hello,

I may be purchasing a 16.000 lb hydrohoist for next to nothing and it would need new "bunks" installed to support my Harley correctly. I checked it out today and everything works but it will need some cosmetics and I would like to replace the fugly rusted galvanized steel parts with aluminum.

Ideally I would have three cross beams (instead of the existing 2) to support the vessel's length and long continous bunks to support it from stem to stern instead of the way they are now - two separate V-shaped bunk sections.

Does anyone have their Harley on a lift and can send me pictures and possibly measurments of how their bunks are built so I can duplicate?

Thanks!

[Ron Alexander]

I have several photos of my 42" Harley in slings and on blocks from last years hauling if this is any help

Ron Alexander

[Swamplizard]

thanks - she looks great!

Any shots of how your lift bunks are setup?

thanks!

[Ron Alexander]

Sorry. I don't have a lift or a trailer. We keep her in a Marina year round. If you're asking about the bottom of the boat this is the best shot I have that shows the set up

[pizzacutter]

Prop stuff, etc.
Haven't been on line much but I have been using the boat some. several offshore trips of 160 mile round trip (include 40 miles trolling) and some tuna and dolphin, only 1 marlin all year. With new water pumps, etc. I am running 20 degrees or so cooler, right at the recommended 180 degrees. Hey Ron I saw your bottom paint job photos (we call that a blue belly here), what is the intake with scoop for? air cond? Bottom looks good! Thouhgt I would give you guys a prop note. I was going to have props re-done due to 2 small dings and I was not getting my full 2800 rpm unless I raise drives way up and then the bow wants to jump up and down. I called Ken martin @ Pacific Surface Drives, he advised John Rose on the construction of the props 5 years ago and I have been pretty pleased. Ken suggested removing 1/16" off of the trailing edge of each blade to increase rpm by about 75. I looked at what he was suggesting and it makes sense. Since I had the boat on the trailer I thought I would try something before going to prop shop. I switched rotation so they swing out. I have been running inswinging for 19 years. Wouldn't you know it, picked up 2-3 mph, reduced rooster tail, bow stays down better with less trim tab use, and steering is fine. I can't believe I waited all these years but thats how things ususally go for me. I still need 200-300 more rpm which will hopefully be accomplished by trimming the prop blades. I now have to reverse my gear cables so my levers are correct but that is easy. Ken says most mono-hulls with Arneson's run better with outswing and Cats run better with inswing. Which way are you guys swinging (props I mean)? Hope you guys are using your boats some more, fuel is down pretty good here, I had it delievered to my house the other day @ $3.85. I am planning an Awl-Grip paint job this fall. I have a guy working on some other boats who does it with brush & roller and it is awesome. He did my girlfriend's 24' Scout in Fighting Lady Yellow and it looks like a new boat. I'll try to get Susan to post some photos. I just bought all of the new rub-rail it was about $1,500 delivered. Any feedback on the prop swing will be appreciated.

[Swamplizard]

Hello Brothers
My props spin in when they are running but you all know my saga and mine are gas motors and velvet drives which don't like to be spun backwards.

When I repower I am planning on changing the spin direction as well....I hear it will steer better around the dock that way and I hope to get gears that don't care either way.

Be well and boat for me

O

[Steve H]

Harley Guys


I haven't boated at all in August. I did head up stream for a few days in July. It was a 550 mile round trip. Weather was beautiful. Water was extremly flat except for a short stretch that was towards the end of our day anyway. We pulled into the Marina soaking wet. But the temp was in the high 90's, so it was a nice way to cool off.

I did have a minor engine issue. One motor got hot and I shut it down quickly, (Too quickly). I did not have the throttle stick all the way back like I should have causing the engine to diesel (run backwards). This inturn pulled water into the engine, causing it to lock up. We had to pull all the spark plugs then crank the water out of the engine. I never did determine why it got hot in the first place. Only theory I have is that the intake was plugged from the outside with debris. Then it fell away when I shut down the engine. But it was a minor pain to get running again and we were on our way.
Turning the props out? I have always assumed that they should be turned in. I know the racing crowd will experiment with the rotation but I didn't think it would make much difference in my application. I have always tried to get more bow lift and it seems as if turning the props out would encourage stern lift rather that the bow. But I will try just about anything at least once. The boat will be out of the water in a couple of weeks anyway for other work. I might just give it a try.

I still want to install that bow thruster. I just purchased a hydrohoist. After I get that installed I will get to the thruster project.

Lee, be sure to keep us updated on the paint job. I would like to do some work on mine, but I don't want to spray it in my new boathouse. The roll on method would be the ticket for me. I have seen some work done by roller before and it is amazing. I think the trick is using the right products, and the wet sanding and buffing afterwards.

Good boating everyone,

Steve

[Swamplizard]

Happy New Year ALL - wish you a safe, healthy, and prosperous 2009 fellow Harley Fans. Get out there and do some boating while fuel prices are down!

The wife and I decided to set aside some coin to fix the Harley's motors once and (we hope) for all this winter....probably go 540cubes, naturally aspirated, heavy duty everything and fresh water cooling. Also changing out the transmissions for some 72Cs instead of the 71s so it can handle more horsepower, going 2:1 ratio to allow for more prop choices as well and lower the load a bit and I can have two regular rotation motors. Wish us luck!
Cheers!


Swampy

[Swamplizard]

BTW: Does anyone have a detailed schematic of the Superstar 42 hull? I have a freind in the marine business who wants to try something - it is a floating anti-barnacle solution and I need to know the exact dimentions of the vessel from the waterline down.

Short of diving or pulling the vessel - perhaps someone has a drawing?

[Steve H]

Well I finally got the new to me hoist installed in the new to me house. It's been a long road going through the permitting process, but I finally can enjoy some fruits of my stress and labor.

I just loaded on about 500 gallons of that 2.00 gas. I won't need it for quite a while, but thats fine with me. It's went up about 40 cents since the first of the year. No one seems to know why. This will give me a little hedge on summer prices I hope.

Steve

[pizzacutter]

Wow, Steve I thought I had a cool place to keep my Harley but yours is awesome! I have done a lot of waterfront construction including a small marina so I can only imagine what the permit process was like. Looks like you prevailed! I'd like to see some outside photos to show the body of water and so forth. What size is the building, materials, etc? I had Susan attach a few photos of my "Harley House" but they are a few years old. I have added another pier and some more decking around the house, garage and waterfront. My building is 46' wide but I have partitioned off 16' for offices, bathroom, utitlity room and recreation room on first floor and an apartment on the 2nd floor. That leaves me about 30' x 65' of garage space which is enough for Harley and about 4 cars. We have a lot of vehicles so I rent storage space elsewhere for some cars but I hope to add a 3 car garage attached to the house so I can try to keep everything at home. Between myself, my son, my girlfriend and her son we have 8 boats so it can get a bit crowded but we have almost 300' of waterfront and some of the boats are for duck hunting so they are only used in the winter. You probably can see beside the garage that we have a launch ramp that is big enough for the Harley so I can put in or out as needed for repairs or cleaning. We also trailer a lot to go to our 2nd home on the Chesapeake Bay so the ramp is very convenient. The neighbors also like to borrow it. I'm getting ready for an insurance survey of the Harley so I have it in the garage. The engines are 6 years old this year so I'm changing out batteries, somes hoses, some upholstry and other misc. stuff. With fuel down I'm hoping for much more use this summer. By the way props are going to the shop for some changes recommended by Ken Martin of Pacific Surface Drives. I'll post results when I have them. Let's see more photos of the "Harley House". Hey, this is Susan, my aerial photo is too large 2.15 mb to attach, will have to send it next time, sorry.

[pizzacutter]

Hey Swamp, I am going to Palm Beach this week. Hope to get there Thur. 2-19. If my girlfriend doesn't make me work around the yard all week I will be cruising around some (by car). If convenient I'd like to look at the boat. Post back if you're around.
Pizza

[pizzacutter]

anybody been boating this year? we had 90 degree weather last week so I bolted on the re-done props and put the boat in the water. As I mentioned last fall I had switched rotation to outswinging and was pleased with minor improvements. over the winter upon advice of ken martin @ pacific surface drives I had 1/16" removed from the trailing edge of props which was supposed to add 75 rpm. I am real pleased. I think there is 2-3mph more in the cruise and a nice feel when the throttles are punched, top end was 49.7mph on gps. I think I am done with prop changes as I don't see it getting much better. hey swamp, I got one more trip to Palm beach soon to bring back girlfiend's boat and other stuff probably around June 1. I'll post to see if you are around. Best of boating luck to everyone in 09. Post up some photos and info when you get them. hey steve I want to see the outside of the harley house.