Organizing a Build Lots More Questions

[CatBuilder]

OK, I'm in FL now and I'm nearly set up to start building. I have a few more setup things to work on, but the time is almost here to start actual building.

I am looking at what I have received from the designer (Kurt Hughes):

*Life size printout of the mold used to create the hulls
*20-30 page set of blueprints/line drawings

That's all there is at this point, although he said he recently sent out "specs."

This 45' catamaran is my first boat build, so I am trying to understand where to begin.

The boat has:


3mm (several layers) plywood scarfed together and epoxied on the mold to create the hulls
*"sitka spruce" stringers - have not found any spruce yet
*composite bulkheads
*crossbeams
*composite deck
*composite deckhouse
*composite rudders
*composite daggerboards
*daggerboard cases


I have narrowed things down to sticking to the core materials as presented in the plan. The deck and deckhouse cores are AL600 balsa. The hulls are not cored. The rudders/dagger boards are balsa cores, with foam around the edges, I presume to absorb any impacts, although the rudders are in a cassette and are kickups.

Now is the time where I have to take those blueprints and somehow(!!) translate them into a boat and into a plan of action.

The drawings are to scale, but they are very confusing to me.

For instance: He shows a diagram of the large, scarfed panel you have to make to make up 1/2 of one hull to put on the mold. He shows several stations on that panel and shows it both at the cutout size and the size it appears after it is bent. HOWEVER, both views are superimposed on each other in the same color ink and I can't tell the lines apart! Ideas?:confused:

Also, I don't know where to begin. I have a 30' x 60' space with a dirt floor.

What do I do??:confused:

*put down a tarp?
*build some kind of strongback to support hulls?
*what kind of bench would I need?

Much of the boat is composite, indicated by arrows on the line drawings/blueprint that say things like, "6mm ply, balsa, 6mm ply, 6oz glass" to indicate the type of sandwich. These panels are everywhere except in the hulls. Do I try to make these ahead of time, before they go in the hull? It is difficult because you do not know the exact dimensions of the hulls due to the Cylinder Mold method. You can't know until the hulls are built. However, do I try to make panels ahead of time anyway?

Where do I start? Do I build rudders and daggerboards first, in case I blow something vacuum bagging, so I only have to throw out a small piece rather than 1/2 a hull?

How do you go about organizing a boat build, in general?

How do I know how much material I need on hand for any part I'm making? I have a materials list for the whole boat, but I can't take delivery of all of it at once because I'm building in a hurricane prone area and a very humid area.

If I start with the dagger boards and rudders, how do I know how much balsa, foam, glass and epoxy to have handy?

Being a new builder, I thought my plans might come with things like "start on this section, then go to this section", or... even ... "Welcome to building a Kurt Hughes boat, thank you." I have nothing. Just a tube containing the life size drawing of the mold and a tube containing the blueprint/line drawing of the boat.

Lastly, there are 3 pages of unlabeled squiggly lines at the end of the plan. I have NO CLUE what they could be. Obviously, they are contours of some sort, but they look like no obvious part of the boat and they are completely unlabeled.

I'm a little put off because the plans contain very detailed specs on things I don't need, like what wiring and genset to put in, yet I feel they don't contain what I do need - a small, even one page, step by step.

Can I get any help from anyone on that here? Where do I begin?

PS: I've studied the Gougeon Brothers on Boat Building and have a lot of on-water experience, as well as systems and general repair experience, but have never built.

[hoytedow]

Wow! Where to begin? Let's start with learning new techniques and learning curves.

You say there are several parts you want to build ahead of time using similar methods(vacuum bagging). You are on the right track to start with small pieces, because if you screw something up, you will have wasted fewer resources.

You will want to have a level work area or a way to level any building jig/platform you are using.

You will need to be able to run a chalk-line the length of the build so this necessitates un-movable areas on the floor to hold the registration marks both longitudinally and transversely. Large patio stones set flush to ground level may suffice here. Start with survey stakes and set off across floor with tape measure marking critical points where these registration points must be located.

A work bench can be extravagant or simply planks set across saw-horses depending on the level of need.

Thieves could be a problem so you need security unless you want to build your boat with a spoon handle.

I would write to the plan's seller and ask him where are the missing parts. Be specific about which instructions are lacking.

I hope this helps.

[CatBuilder]

Thank you very much, Hoyt.

I'll take your advice to heart and start with the dagger boards. They have complicated cores, but seem to be the most simple items to play with at first.

Great ideas about the patio stones! I'll use those and some stakes/lines to get everything in order. I'm sure I will need to put up some kind of strongback or quasi-strongback to hold the hulls upright when complete.

Thieves: I nearly brought my marine shotgun down. :) I didn't want to transport it through NY/NJ. My wife will be bringing it down on a plane or shipping it to me. I plan to stay at the build site nearly 24 hours a day to guard it. I'm a bit over the top on security! ha ha ha

OK, I'll contact the designer again and ask him about those contours I can't figure out. One more attempt to figure them out (maybe based on the area they appear in the plan) and then I'll ask. I'm never sure what I can or can't ask the designer without pissing him off.

I know it's a big post with a lot of questions. Anyone who knows one answer only, feel free to just post that one answer. I put all the questions into one thread, as Richard had been saying to do. They are all related, so I figured, why not?

[Tad]

Unless the designer specifically sold you building instructions...you are on your own...it's not his business to tell you how to build the boat.....but he may provide some design advice like "can I substitute this for that" kind of thing.

Far better is to get in contact with others who are doing the same thing....even better if they are a bit ahead of you.....you can ask the designer about that....there are lot's of build blogs....some very complete...search for them...they don't have to be the same design or even method, but that's a bonus

[welder/fitter]

From the site of Kurt Hughes designs:

"I try to have the plans answer every possible question that a builder might have, beginner or professional. These plans have a very high level of detail."

"...and all the technical support a builder might need."

"CatBuilder", Call Kurt, explain that you need a starting push. I'm sure that he'll walk you through it. Do you have the construction manual?

You'll need a build floor and , just like building most large things, you'll need a way to lay out and transpose centerlines, dwl, etc. . I believe that the preferred method is to build each hull, align them & build centre, bridge deck. So, don't overwhelm yourself with too much paper. shelve the other drawings & focus on hull construction, keeping the spec.s sheets and any details sheets needed for the hulls. Are these hulls being built upside down? LOL Don't let the plans burn a hole in your pocket! The better the understanding you gain at this point, the major headaches you will avoid down the road. As Tad has posted, talk to other cat builders. Don't be worried about asking simple questions, all of us meet challenges and sometimes think, "WTF do I do with all of this...?" Patience is important in boat building.
Best of luck!
Mike

[apex1]

When you build a strongback, you will have reference lines, there is a way to transfer them safely from the reference structure to the hull "plating" which will cover and hide them. Have a cheap laser level and transfer the waterlines, centreline, frames, buttocks, bulkheads positions to your workshop walls where you make a line with a pen (label them). Assuming the walls are rocksolid you´ll never loose a reference.

Regards
Richard

[hoytedow]

Some posts sunk in ground could serve for placement of these reference points. Marks on tent walls won't serve well.

[Charly]

Catbuilder,

From reading this and your recent posts here, IMO you are overwhelming yourself.
If you have no build experience, you need to find someone who knows his way around a shop and hire him.
Do you not have the construction manual? You should have received a cd with a pdf manual, along with a video that shows the cylinder moulding process. I would not start without it.
Again just my opinion, but I would focus at this time on the cylinder moulding process-- this includes preparing your panels, ie, scarfing and bagging them flat to the floor or table, building the mould, and getting your gear (bag, vacuum sealer, vacuum pump or shop vac, mold plywood, etc, etc) together.

You will have plenty of time to digest the fine points on the plans, but building is a step by step process, and you have to cross one bridge at the time. As Andre Segovia said in an interview once when discussing the works of JS Bach: "It is like a mighty tree, that it takes two men to look at. One looks up until he gets tired, and then the other takes over till he reaches the top." Your build will be like that. You will be able to do it on your own, but you cannot get your head around every issue completely at once.

I am just as in the dark as you are, on some issues. I hope I can be of some help to others here that are in the same "boat", no pun intended. I am and will be noting my progress and posting questions in the Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36 Thread that I started in this forum. I just completed my second hull section this weekend, and so far so good.



edit quote catbuilder"
For instance: He shows a diagram of the large, scarfed panel you have to make to make up 1/2 of one hull to put on the mold. He shows several stations on that panel and shows it both at the cutout size and the size it appears after it is bent. HOWEVER, both views are superimposed on each other in the same color ink and I can't tell the lines apart! Ideas"

Mine are labeled, but it should not matter, as long as you laminate the hull section and then lay the flat surface panel on top and cut it out. You have to loft the flat surface panel anyway, unless you received a full sized pattern...

[eric le marin]

Catbuilder,

I have been thinking of how to build my boat for almost one year before I started mine, and as far as I can see, yours is going to be a huge baby. If you can't find a book explaining exactly your building process, write a process by yourself. You will maybe use a lot of paper, but do it: it is called a work breakdown structure.

For example :

HULL 1:
-find the wood
-trace the lines on the wood
-cut the wood to correct dimensions (where, how?)
-scarf the pieces
-install the mold (materials, power,etc)
-move the scarfed pieces into the mold (46' long ? how ?)
-etc

HULL 2:
(here you can certainly benefit from what is above...)

ETC...


When you don't find anything else to write, you can be confident that you have though of everything. During the process, highlight in red what you need to solve, and take it one at a time.(ie one post on the forum ?)

Hope this will help you to sleep better. You can't have everything in mind, but you can have everything on paper. But I suggest you try to find a good book, or blog of someone who did this kind of construction

[apex1]

Marks on tent walls won't serve well.

Would make some interesting and probably psychedelic shape, yes.:D I did not remember the tent, sorry.

[jim lee]

Where to start?

Well, Maybe start with building the tender?

-jim lee

[hoytedow]

Would make some interesting and probably psychedelic shape, yes.:D I did not remember the tent, sorry.It's ok. He could always fiberglass the tent. Then it would be stiff enough for the marks.:P

[apex1]

It's ok. He could always fiberglass the tent. Then it would be stiff enough for the marks.:P

Then enclose the open ends, turn it round and put a outboard on.................:D

Sorry catbuilder, we sometimes take it not too serious at all.;)

[Charly]

...but then what kind of hardner to use?? how should the fabric of the tent be oriented?? who is the tent supplier:)

Just teasin, catbuilder

[apex1]

...but then what kind of hardner to use?? how should the fabric of the tent be oriented?? who is the tent supplier:)

Just teasin, catbuilder

Tent fabric is ALWAYS oriented straight north in such application!:P ...amateur...:)

Bare plaster gives a lot of strength added to fabric! Though I have seen bare female Ukrainians making stiffer tents on occasion...:D

[hoytedow]

I thought Orient meant East.

[hoytedow]

Sorry. I said that by Occident.

[apex1]

Nice pun.................

back to topic.

The designer should provide some basic "how to" as mentioned above. And it is cheaper to grab the phone and call him then buying some drugs to find sleep again!

Cheers (and sorry)
Richard

sometimes we need that

[CatBuilder]

Oh my GOD, if nothing else, you guys are great for relieving the tension! ha ha ha

These jokes were fantastic! :)

I will formulate a proper reply to some of the responses shortly, but a quick reply to Charly:

"Do you not have the construction manual? You should have received a cd with a pdf manual, along with a video that shows the cylinder moulding process. I would not start without it."

No. I have never seen any of the items you are describing here. I literally have a blueprint and a very large, life size printout of the mold cutout. Nothing else. Kurt said he sent "specs", but I don't know what he's talking about. I don't know what "specs" are, if I already have the blueprint.

I will wait until I receive these items. So I guess most people start with the hulls, from what I'm gathering here. I talked to someone who has built a lot of Kurt's boats and he had suggested starting with the boards/rudders to get used to things before doing the hulls. I sure hope I get something soon from him. I think it's that he sent me partial plans that is really tripping me up. He never mentioned a construction manual and I had to ask about the cylinder mold DVD, which he didn't directly answer he had sent. His reply to the same kinds of questions I'm asking here is as follows:

CatBuilder,

I sent specs out.
I'm on the road again, but I have a note to find the standard rig. Most people really like the tall rig.

I've never been asked for a construction sequence. its all about how much room you have. I like to have several tracks going at once so you can use excess epoxy and not have to wait for cure time.

Kurt



Does this mean I'll be getting all kinds of goodies in the mail soon??:confused:

[hoytedow]

You can't solve all of life's problems with epoxy but it helps you stick together.

[apex1]

Hoyt,

lets get serious again. (though I like puns and eloquent comments too much to skimp on that, as you know).

Catbuilder,

you now have found a buddy in the same shoes, congrats! Stick together peers and let us know / share your experience, please.

There is a trend to go to e-mail once members made buddies, that is easy to understand. But please, share your thoughts, rants and opinions (and the catastrophes) with us.

We all are here to learn.

Hmm... some know already everything, so let me say we dumb asses are here to learn... the experts may watch us learning.

Regards
Richard

[CatBuilder]

I will keep posting to this thread. I will add all of my setup victories and pitfalls here as well as probably a number of questions. I am, after all, new to building hulls.

Next steps (based on advice here):

1) Put together building and work space
2) Start with dagger boards to experiment with epoxy and bagging
3) Hopefully receive the proper materials from Kurt soon
4) Build the mold
5) Start building hulls (where Charly is right now)
6) Align hulls and continue building in a sequential fashion rather than trying to plan ahead so much

I will update as I go. It will take about 2 weeks to get the build site set up and the building constructed as well as the basic shop set up.

[CatBuilder]

The first update to this thread should be that I didn't have the complete plans yet.

Aside from the line drawings for the boat itself and the mold, Kurt has sent me a DVD that shows the entire build process (minus any deckhouses) from start to finish and shows several different boats. The DVD is fantastic, as the rumors have said. He narrates it and explains what you see, as well as lets off some tips here and there.

In addition to the video there is a CD ROM with an extensive construction manual and several other supporting documents I haven't even read yet. There are specs and some intro material in paper form. I almost wish I got the two installments in revers order. I would have had less questions and much less panic. :)

[hoytedow]

I bet that is a relief.

[Landlubber]

....why not spend some time helping a similar boat build in your area, there is soooooo much to learn that trying to build a composit cat as the first build is not such a good idea.

There are many subtlties to boat building, and it certainly would help you to go build with someone else, even for a few weeks, just to get the feel of the game.....or else, as previously well advised, hire a builder that is happy to work with you.

[hoytedow]

....why not spend some time helping a similar boat build in your area, there is soooooo much to learn that trying to build a composit cat as the first build is not such a good idea.

There are many subtlties to boat building, and it certainly would help you to go build with someone else, even for a few weeks, just to get the feel of the game.....or else, as previously well advised, hire a builder that is happy to work with you.Good advice.

[apex1]

In addition to the video there is a CD ROM with an extensive construction manual and several other supporting documents I haven't even read yet. There are specs and some intro material in paper form. I almost wish I got the two installments in revers order. I would have had less questions and much less panic. :)

Sounds good!

Keep us updated!

[CatBuilder]

....why not spend some time helping a similar boat build in your area, there is soooooo much to learn that trying to build a composit cat as the first build is not such a good idea.

There are many subtlties to boat building, and it certainly would help you to go build with someone else, even for a few weeks, just to get the feel of the game.....or else, as previously well advised, hire a builder that is happy to work with you.


I don't have the budget or time for this. Watching the video, I can safely say I understand the process now and wouldn't need to build someone else's boat. I would be happy to have others come build mine though! :D

[Charly]

Hey Catbuilder,
You will definitely be needing some extra hands from time to time. Handling the laminated panels will be a chore that calls for at least two stong men. I moved my first one off the form by myself, and it was a dumb thing to try to do. I was alone and wanted it off though, so I could prep for the next one. I tell you, it nearly whipped me. You can see it standing next to the form with the second one being bagged.(in the Kurt Hughes thread) It was a lot like trying to stand up a wall when framing a house-- something best not attempted alone. I won't do THAT again.:-) The main thing though is to try and not bugger up your bag in the process. The new laminated hull section will have some "icycles" on it, and they are sharp. I had to repair several tears in the bag as a result of trying to drag it off by myself. Two men could have lifted the thing up straight and propped it up. Much less damage that way.

The lamination of the panels also goes much much smoother with a couple of helpers. One to mix the resin and two to paint the panels and then place them on the form.

Let me know when you get ready, and if I have the time I would be happy to come down and give you a hand. Right now I am pretty busy though with work etc. (my build is a spare time project- mostly on weekends)

Good luck
Charly

[CatBuilder]

Sounds good, Charly. We could trade off, too. I could help with some of you labor intensive moments too. We're not that far apart.

[missinginaction]

Wow catbuilder this is a project good luck to you. I'm just going to throw in a couple of suggestions as I was where you are now about 4 years ago. I'm doing a restoration which is different obviously than a scratch build. Anyway, here are a few thoughts:

1. Slow and steady wins the race. I believe that boat building by individuals is similar to marathon running by atheletes. Pace yourself. As you know you need a work schedule. You will modify it as you go.

2. You will make mistakes. Be prepared to butcher some wood and be prepared to occasionally start a part over. Measure twice (or three times) and cut once.

3. The good news is that you will get better as you go. I've had to resist the temptation to tear out a part that I made a few years ago because I have a better idea now. I think that this process is what leads guys to build a second boat. That too is another story.

4. Buy the best tools you can afford. The good stuff costs more for a reason. It's generally easier to use and lasts longer.

5. As far as setting up a work space is concerned your allready on your way. One tool that I found extremely helpful in setting up shop and in getting things straight as I built (like you usually alone) was a good rotary laser. I like to build as accurately as possible. My laser helped me get things like cabin sides and window frames built to within 1/16" tolerances. Glass installation is easier when the frame is straight. Bulkhead and floors perfectly plumb makes soles, hatches and doors go in easy and straight, a thing of beauty. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Best of luck to you and remember to take it a step at a time. I've learned to think ahead, but not too far ahead. If I think about the whole boat I get scared, if I focus on the assembly at hand and just a few steps ahead I don't get overwhelmed.

Last suggestion......find a psychologist. Some won't admit it but based on the norms of our society (immediate gratification) we're all crazy here. Of course a genious is also considered nuts by many so take comfort in that.

Best of luck to you cabuilder - be safe....

MIA