Business Opportunity

[genuinemarine]

Favourite labor cost, an rich supply of qualified yacht craftsmen make China the top choice for building the quality yachts. More and more yacht builders are now on the way to this wonderful land: China and you got to catch the train.

Genuien Marine Inc is now representing some of the best boatyards in China to look for the oppotunity of building yachts. These Chinese boatyards have modern facilities, good locations and experienced craftsmen who are able to delivery top quality yachts for you.

If you have a good and proven yacht design to build or looking for quality yachts to sell and buy , Genuine Marine Inc could help find a good match of yacht builder in China for you and help realize your dream in a quick, professional and economical way.

Do to hesite and let your dream slip away.

[CDBarry]

Why don't you go ahead and come up with a design and offer it?

The US market is not custom yacht friendly. Most people want off-the-shelf, and want to touch the boat at a show. Few will buy an unbuilt boat, even from a prestigious yard, much less one from an unknown yard. This is called a "pig in a poke" - an object in a bag supposed to be a pig, but you have to buy it before you can see it. Find a broker and a designer, put out some cash and build an example, show it and then build some more.

[betelgeuserdude]

Why keep this up? Why not find some economically driven yacht designer in China? Certainly they must exist.

I'm on the Pacific rim too. I saw a lot of vessels imported from East Asia which failed in every respect to be "world class". Some were even reputed to be designs which were STOLEN from American yacht designers. A design, embellished with third-world materials and techniques, and even then ATTRIBUTED to the designer from whom it was stolen can be detrimental to the designer, even one with a well earned, and long standing reputation. Sorry, the sting has not yet worn off.

Then there's the very fact that China remains a communist regime. How is a designer to seek recourse if he/she is wronged? What pressure is there to bear? Quite simply, NONE.

Hong Kong has exhibited some decent work (still with ideosyncratic problems), but Hong Kong has become China yet again. Taiwan too, has put out some good work (and a lot of bad), but is viewed as being under constant threat from the Mainland. Political instability within these two boatbuilding locations has an incredibly strong deterent effect on business relations. The downside potential well exceeds that of the upside.

I can think of many, many other more suitable locations, with higher quality materials and labor availability than China. Some of us believe that "you get what you pay for". When China produces a world class yacht, utilizing authentic products, and honorable techniques, the world will come knocking at your door. The onus falls on China.

DC

[genuinemarine]

You talk like a politician instead of a boater like the others.

You sound like you are an expert on China but judging from your subjective comment about China, You know nothing about this country indeed and have you ever been in this country?Maybe 10 years ago.

Do you know Cheoylee, Ocean Alexandra,Nordhavn, Offshore, Selene,Albin just name a few? Do you know where these boats are be built now?

Are you in boat business?

[betelgeuserdude]

Genuien, I have indeed heard of those manufacturers, and I think that I was more than generous in noting some of the good work put out by the rare exceptions. My fair assessment stands.

I have lived aboard, repaired, and cruised aboard my Richards designed Cheoy Lee 32', for close to ten years.

I am a professional boatbuilder, so yes, I think that I can speak with some authority. I've never been to China. Your country seems to be well represented by the poor quality vessels upon which I have worked. Take solace in the fact that I have also worked on some very good boats built in Hong Kong and Taiwan.

If the political situation in Taiwan and Hong Kong improve, I would consider a vessel's construction with authentic components (no counterfeits), and highly supervised labor, in a quality environment. Until such time, I would never consider doing business with a Chinese company, either as a customer, a designer, an investor, or in any other capacity. You must admit, that a business relationship in China is by definition, a political relationship. I am not willing to risk my reputation and income potential on Chinese politics.

No matter how many times you post the same message, my opinion of China will remain unchanged. Once again, the onus is on China.

Respectfully,
DC

[genuinemarine]

Hi, Jeff&DC

Thanks a lot for your suggestion and reply.

I personally think boatdesign.com is a website in which those who love boating exchange useful information and everybody belongs to this category in the world is free to give his comment and useful information here. However I believe everybody in this forum will agree that whoever commends here and whatever he says he should be responsible for what he says. I will be responsible for what I have said in this forum and will never give any irresponsible comment about something if I do not know the real situation or experience it myself. I will also respect be polite to the one who knows how to respect and be polite the others.becomesThis is the philosophy of my life and business.

After Jeff's suggestion to me, I can easily find that Mr DC's second message becomes soft a lot. I am not going to change Mr DC's opinion of China by putting messages here and I think the following fact will give everybody here what is the real case:

At first, I am not going to tell you that Mr DC is totally wrong. I admit that there are some problems in the boats built in China.

1. Nearly 95% of the boats from China to U.S.A are built by shipyards in Taiwan or Hongkong. As you may know that Taiwan and Hongkong have totally different social systems from that in mainland of China. Taiwan and Hongkong are capitalist community and have a very high level of democracy and freedom which they copied from U.S.A and Europe. You can easy find this in the latest Presidential Election in Taiwan these days. In the light of the above facts most of the boats were not built in the communist regime as Mr DC said. The other 5% are built by the shipyards in mainland of China but these shipyards are managed by people from Taiwan and Hongkong which are not communist regime. I could not see so much definite connection between the social system and the quality of the product as Mr DC said.

2. Cheoylee, Ocean Alexandra, Horizon, Defever and so on have been cooperating with world famous designers in the states and Europe for years and I think they are getting along with each other very well. Most of the other shipyards are just making OEM boats like Nordhavn,Fleming, Marlow,Johnson, McKinna, for the importers and designers in the states. They are also doing not bad.

3. Besides those big names I mentioned in my last message which are now being built in the mainland of China, Grand Banks, Trader from UK and even the Brunwick are now sourcing some partners in the mainland of China now.I can give another list of at leat 5 international boat builders who are now moving to China. How do you think their judgement of China and the quality of the boat and do you think they are out of mind?

4. Just give you some ideas:Toyata, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, GM, Wolfwagen, Buick just name a few are having their cars built in China now. How do you think their judgement?

I am not here to blame anybody but as a native Chinese I think I should clear the air here a little bit so that there is no misunderstand between us. There is lots of differences in the culture, history, ideology,system between China and the states. Currently there are misunderstandings, discrepancies, different views between these two peoples I belive the honesty and willingness to communicate are those ways we should use to solve those problems including the one we are having here.I just came back from a U.S.A visit shortly and it was my first time to be there. Most of the Amercian I met during the visit are very nice to us and willing to help.

Mr DC I would sincerely invite you to pay a visit to China to experience the people, the culture, the places and the yards here and I believe you will definitely meet good and bad people, things. However there is something I am also pretty sure: You will find China is not as complicated as you had previous thought.

We,Chinese, have a very famous saying: Experience turns out truth.

Sorry for my bad manner in my last message and your comments is most welcome.

[betelgeuserdude]

Genuine:

Thanks for your last post which was quite well written, and informative. I think that this kind of dialogue can be much more beneficial to your cause than your initial posts.

I would very much welcome the opportunity to visit China and experience everything that you have set forward. I have desired to visit China for many years, and someday I shall.

Please except my sincere apologies if you feel that I have insulted your culture, history, ideology, or people. This was not my intent.

Perhaps you would like to share some of the specific benefits of doing business in China. If I were looking to build a business relationship with a boatbuilder, what would be the benefit of a Chinese relationship, rather than say, a South African relationship? How can quality control in China compare with that of New Zealand? Can a Chinese production yard compete with a North American production yard; both in production and profit, with a North American destination? Basically, what sets China apart? Why China?

Respectfully,
DC

[genuinemarine]

Hi, DC

First of all I would like to remind you that I have been very active in this website instead of "varnish" as you mentioned in your last message. You did see my message to Mr Venen right?

"However I believe everybody in this forum will agree that whoever comments here and whatever he says he should be responsible for what he says. " Please always keep the above rule in your mind.

Secondly I am most willing to proceed our previous discussion once you could confirm with me whether my message regarding your personal ideas of the social system, design ..... reflects the real truth. The reason for this is that I think we should solve our existing disagreements before we move to the next topic.

Thirdly the only reason why I have not replied to your last message is that I know lots of yacht building in China but very little about South Africa and New Zealand. Based on that I do not think it is wise for me to give any subjective idea here. What I can say now is that No matter in which country you are going to build your boat you should try to learn the local culture, ideology, resources available and how the local people acts. Once you achieve that you should rely on your personal ability, skills, inter-person communication methods to manage the project, risks. The business opportunities have always been there and they only belong to those who really know how to catch.

Love to see you comment but I could not promise I could response upon receipt of your message as per your wish.

[betelgeuserdude]

I can see that we are done George. It appears that the sale of snake oil is more your line of business, since you still have failed to give some insight as to "why China".

With Beijing breathing down the neck of Taiwan, I am even less willing to consider China as a business partner in any sense. Face it George, without addressing my (and I dare say other's) very real concern over the political situation within the communist regime of China, you are failing to take me seriously. This is disrespectful. Furthermore, you have wasted my time.

Good luck, George.

DC

[genuinemarine]

I do not care whether you are done or not. If you want to have some insight to "Why China" you got to do it self cos I do not have such obligation.

It appears that the sale of nationalism and politics is more your line of business.

This is a boatdesign website and if you want to discuss politics find somewhere else.

You are failing to take me seriously, respectfully from the very beginning and you initiated this political conversation so who waste whose time???

[betelgeuserdude]

Still no answer George.

Why China?

If you are asserting that China would be a good business partner despite the fact that Chinese politics is a valid concern, you are doing yourself and your country a disservice. If you can't address "why China", you have failed to sell China. Why don't you scroll back up and look at my specific questions concerning China's viability as compared to the other countries I mentioned?

Like it or not, George, you and China are competing with South Africa. There have been some very good boats coming out of South Africa, at compelling prices. The business and political environment is superior in every way to China. The South African boatbuilding community is building on it's successes.

New Zealand has a long standing reputation for superior craftsmanship, a tremendous amount of knowledge, and rock steady political and business climate.

Canada, Europe, Australia, South America all offer their own benefits to the designer or financier.

Here in my native United States of America, our boatbuilding community is quite well positioned to provide near surgical environments, utilizing authentic and modern materials, fabricated and assembled by skilled workers. Our dollar is favored by many other countries, the world over. We have proven our ability to build to the highest imaginable standard, and also maintain a competitive productivity advantage. Our necessary safety requirements for workers assures civil rights, and our legal system guarantees the rights of all parties, from the designer's intellectual property, to the contract between the builder and client. After the boat has been launched, the owner is afforded the right to seek compensation for any errors, or failures on the part of the builder or designer. This kind of legal regulation has a way of enforcing honor and integrity.

I'm still talking about boats here, George.

Now, why China?

How can we reconcile the valid concerns of the political situation in Taiwan and Hong Kong, as they apply to the boatbuilding industry? Do you not care to address this issue? How is a yacht designer or boatbuilding financier to do business in China? What legal recourse is available to the designer or financier who is wronged by business or political interests? There are indeed some builders in China who are familiar with these concerns and who must face them on a regular basis. How do they handle these concerns? How can you play matchmaker, George, if you are unwilling to address a party's concerns?

Still talking boats. Why China?

DC

[genuinemarine]

Hi, DC (Until now I still do not know your real name):

It seems that we are not done as you said and I am most happy to proceed this debate with you under the judgment of everybody in the forum.

As mentioned in my very first message to you, I doubted that you had been in China and your confirmation in your reply proved my judgment. Your less knowledge of the current situation in China and less experience of dealing with Chinese yacht builders are the basis for your subjective comment of this country.

I admit there are some political problems in China but this country is becoming open, free and democratic by and by. However my personal comments does not matter and they following suggestion might be fair to each other:

I have listed quite a lot of American companies which are dealing with Chinese yacht builders and why not give them a phone call to see what these authorities say about the political situation here in China.

Why not talk with those who are the designers of the Nordhavn, Cheoylee, Horizon, Ocean Alexandra and so on for their opinion about how their designs are being treated? If you need any help in finding out who are the designers please feel free to drop me an email. Maybe what they will tell you proves me wrong but I will feel much more comfortable to accept than how I am feeling now about a lecture given by someone who has not been in China and has never dealt with Chinese yacht building.

Back to your previous comment of the politic situation and designer's recourse, could you please give us some real examples instead of your personal ideas? Prove what you have said with real facts and let the authority and those really experienced tell their comments.


Back to your subjective judgment about my personal ability of selling China, as you can see from my message to Mr Neven in the last few years I have successfully sold quite a few boats into U.S.A, Europe, Australia and set up a strong dealer network in these two continents. When the time comes I will list here all the business reference in your country so that everybody in this forum could see who are responsible for what he has said.

Yes, lots of American shipyard do a real nice job and I can also see lots of top quality megayachts are turned out from England, Netherlands, German, Italy and other European countries. In my recent visit to U.S.A I also saw some American boats did not reflect what you have said.


Back to your question about "Why China" my arguments will be the following:

1. The labor cost
Building a yacht is definitely a labor-concentrated process and with the roaring increased labor cost in your country it is far more economic to build the yachts in those countries in which the labor cost is low. China definitely has the most favorite rate of labor in this world now.

2. The available shipbuilding technology, quality personnel and the environments.
With a history of more than 2000 years, China has been building boats for centuries and this has helped China accumulate enough knowledge and techniques of building quality boats, cultivate a huge reserve of quality personnel in shipbuilding, set up a very strong and good infrastructure for shipbuilding. According to the international statistics China is now among the leading contractors of building quality vessels for international ship owners. In the term of building yachts which emphasizes more on the interior workmanship, carpenter's work, these are what Chinese are good at and we have been doing these for centuries. Take a look at those Chinese treasures and antiques which are kept in the museums of bigger U.SO.A cities and you can easily see these.

3. A good availability of quality marine products and relating service.
China is becoming a "World Factory" and you can easily find everything you want here.
From the raw materials like resin, fiberglass, marine hardware to generators, engines you could purchase most of the parts you need at more reasonable prices and keep your cost down. We have dozens of shipbuilding institutes who can offer their professional service in building a quality yachts and it all depends whether you could locate these and how you are going to use these sources.

4. Supporting the American marine industry.
As a boat builder here in China, We calculate through our previous experience that the materials and equipments for building a boat covers more than 60% of the whole cost of a boat. Most material and equipment of this 60%, such as engines, generators, hot water heater, Chargers and so on are imported from U.S.A. We all Chinese yacht builders as the customers of your American manufacturers are now expanding and supporting your marine industry.

5. The favorite investment environment and security situation in China.
China has been regarded by the international authority as one of the best and safe places for the international investment
That's why lots of international companies have set their office and factories here in China and lots of companies are on the way as well as the yacht builders. Besides of the big car makers and Yacht builders I mentioned in my last message, We have the same Wal-Mart, Sam Club, Carrefour, IBM, Microsoft as you have home and nearly all the big names you have home.

6. Making yacht a in-expensive item so normal American can enjoy the fun of boating.
By building boats in China and some other Asian countries, Yacht is not a luxury item which only belongs to the rich people any more. More people could have the opportunity to enjoy boating.

You really got to have you updated about what is happening now in China instead of sitting and commenting by watching TV and learning to what the other says.

We have police, courts, law offices here in China and lots of foreign law offices have their branches here. Find a lawyer who you can trust and ask him draft an agreement for you sign this with the yacht builders You will definitely have your interests protected.

In a word, the opportunity and resources are always there and only those who are qualified and able to handle could make his mark. I believe some foreign companies had some problems in dealing with Chinese companies and some are really the faults of our Chinese. But I do believe there are some companies who are benefiting from doing business with Chinese companies like those who are importing Chinese yachts now as well as those who are well prepared to start.

I will spend more time on your question tomorrow.

[rtywa]

Chinese yards...

[genuinemarine]

How about these pictures of the Chinsese Yacht Builders?

[genuinemarine]

Hi, DC:

Some American professionals and your government have done some research about China Yacht Building.

Get yourself one copy of Boating Industry International Magazine, Issue May 2000.
See page 58-60

Get yourself one copy of Boating Industry International Magazine, Issue April 2001.
See page 22-25

If you could not get the above drop me an email I will email you a copy of this.


See how those authorities say!

[genuinemarine]

Hi, DC&rtywa

http://www.jetternmarine.com/yacht/index.php/detail4/752/9dc3ebf128991859a94bb749c8d08146

Take a look at the above link and see how your Americans and magazines say about building boat in China.

[genuinemarine]

Hi, DC,

The following is an article written by an American who has been importing Chinese boats for years.

You can have more information about what they are doing at: www.oviattmarine.com


"Building Yachts in the Orient"

http://www.justyachts.com/omi_www/omi_sections/omi_oc/OC98_PDF/OC9802.pdf

Gary Oviatt, Editor/Publisher

Building Yachts in The Orient...

A NEW DEDICATION TO QUALITY

The quality of yachts built in the Orient has improved dramatically in recent years. Have you looked at a Fleming, lately... or an Offshore, Ocean Alexander, Nordhavn, or a Grand Banks? The high quality is unmistakable. These brands are no longer "nearly as good as" - they are now the quality leaders in the industry. The days of pretty good boats at cheap prices is a memory. The new game in oriental yacht construction is to build higher quality than anyone else. The objective, of course, is to get those high prices as well. Some oriental manufacturers prices haven't caught up with the quality change...yet. Such as DeFever designs, but their prices will, and that is where you, the buyer, can benefit. As certain as the rain will fall, prices of labor intensive products like yachts will rise as the cost of labor increases. The cost of oriental labor is still relatively cheap, but growing at a much faster rate than the rest of the world.

Now is the time to take advantage of this 'change by purchasing yachts at prices that are almost certain to increase substantially within a few years. I believe that as the public awareness of the superiority of today's oriental craftsmanship increases, that boats built in Taiwan, Hong Kong and China (yes, mainland China) will be sought after in future years because of their labor intensive interior workmanship and high-tech construction. In the past year, l have made several trips to the Far East for the purpose of building new DeFever designs and reviving and modifying old ones. On every trip, I am amazed at the changes that have occurred since my previous visit. We read daily of the growing industrial strength of Pacific rim countries such as Taiwan and China, but unless you have seen il happening, it is hard to believe..
Skyscrapers sprouting like weeds, wharfs jammed with containers, trucks, cars, motorcycles... people everywhere... new businesses, fast food restaurants, new wealth everywhere... and quality. Amidst the chaotic explosion of industrial output and high-volume production, is their real measure of success: Dedication to Quality.

How does this Dedication to Quality benefit us? Better yachts and lower prices, of course. The quality is higher because the importers are demanding higher quality. High quality standards are essential to survive in today's yacht market and both the importers and the yard managers are insisting upon it. Therefore, high quality has become a reality.

Higher quality is a trend that almost all surviving oriental yacht manufacturers have in common. Pricing is where the difference lies. Take a look at the numbers. A new 49 DeFever Pilothouse cost about $350.000 in 1989 and sells for about that today. Using an annual price increase of 5% since 1989, that 49 DeFever Pilothouse should cost about $600,000 for a 1998 model. However, you can order a fully- equipped 1998 model, today, for under $500,000. Now compare that number to the cost of a 49 Grand Banks, 48 Offshore... or any other manufacturer's comparative model. If the final number you arrive at is over $700,000 don't be surprised. Enough said.

Take advantage of this change to higher quality before the prices catch up. Consider buying a new DeFever, if your budget allows. It might be one of the shrewdest moves that you will ever make.

[Scott STarr]

I am very interested in importing yachts from taiwan and China mainland.

Please contact me at scott@starrImporting.com

or by phone at 954-464-1075

Thank you

[Scott Starr]

How about these pictures of the Chinsese Yacht Builders?


I want to contact with your factory I am interested in building yachts in Taiwan and Mainland China right away.

scott@starrImporting.com

954-464-1075 Phone
954-757-3816 Fax

[Guest]

Do some market research, develop a build policy, find a market niche that fits the build policy, design a boat that fits the niche, build it, show up at a boat show with it, take orders.

There must be a hundred designers who will be able to help you with all of this.

What is the problem?

[genuinemarine]

Hi, Guest.

Take it easy! I do not have any problem with anybody here and we are just exchanging our mutual ideas.That is what the website for.

I have already been involved myself in the yacht industry for years and am now learning marketing (That is basically what you are talking about here) and doing all the things you mentioned above.

Yes you are right I have already been approached by some designers via this chatroom.

Thanks a lot for your suggetion.

[genuinemarine]

To all who have read this talk:

I started this talk for a very simple reason: To know and communicate with the professional friends( More than just business partners) in the boat industry.

I love the boat,the life style behind it and the challenge we have to conquer.

Nowadays We've already had so many problems going around among the peoples, races, nations in this world and it is really not wise to initiate another unnecessary debate. I believe all kinds of misunderstandings could be solved by honest communication and the willingness to respect the differencies and each other.

I have already made up my mind to choose boating as my life career and am targeting to be the pioneer in the yacht industry of China.Thanks all those who have commented here and your comments really help me a lot in accompalishing my above ambition.

[gonzo]

I think that concerns over political stability are valid. A yacht is a large investment. There are other concerns too. For example, Chinese supplies don't specify origin like we are accustomed to. There are no brand names, so there is no assurance as to the quality of a product. Also, the legal recourses in case of disagreements seem very limited from a westerner's poiny of view. The problems in doing business with China seem to be political and not so much about the availability ob skilled or cheap labor. Mercedes Benz has more clout, and therefore bargaining power, than an individual building a yacht ever would. They are not comparable situations. The cultural differences also present some obstacles. We may unknowingly insult each other at times.

[Rob Thompson]

Hi George,

I have an interest in China's emerging yacht industry.
Is there a "Boating Industry Association" or similiar in China?
Where would I find industry information ie- numbers of boats built/sold, import/exports, new marina's (operating or proposed), dollar value of the industries, yacht club memberships, etc?

Regards,
Rob Thompson

[8knots]

Just my 2 cents here guy's
If I were in the market to buy or have a custom yacht built I would never even consider a china boat on pure principal. Never would I spend one red cent (pun intended) supporting a communist country. I will say I like Nordhavn boats alot The Selene's a little too but I'll never own one. sending 800K to a country who has a navy and airforce and the largest army in the world who hate everything about us except the american dollar will never happen. My family and I go to great lengths (and expense) to not buy chinese products. Quality or how nice the facility is not a factor in my decisions just where the money is going! "To develop technology to potentially kill my children in an unseen future war?????"
Reading this I'm sure I will be on the "Idaho crackpot" list but dont take it that way! Just a different side to the conversation above :p
have a good one lads! Will (8-knots)

[genuinemarine]

Hi, 8knots:

Thanks a lot for your straight point and please keep in mind that no matter in the end whether we could agree with each other or not I would like to be your friend.

I really would prefer to discuss with friends here about building the boats instead of political issues but as you have initiated another topic which I do not agree I would like to correct a little bit.

Honestly both your designs of boats and idea of China suprised me a lot. I recommend your taking back the 2 cents and using them to get your knowledge of the current world brushed up. Yes you are right, I as a 100% Chinese, build boats for the money but more importantly I like the challenge and desire to prove we, teamed with international experts, can build the best boat in the world.

However before I present more of my ideas you are kindly requested to clarify the following points:

1. Have you ever been in China?

2. Where do you get those information about China?

3. Where are those boat builders of Nordhavn and Selene? Who are the distributors, designers, retailers of these two lines?

4. Did you check the specifications of these above two lines and where are the majority of the equipmetns from?

5. During the past few centuries, Has China invaded any country?

Please go through the above questions and let us know your comments.

[jusembo]

Hello Rob

I'm also looking for such informations as i want to start sailboat building in China.


Unfortunately, even i'm based in China my self, it's very difficult to get any informations.

You should, maybe, find something by visiting boat exhibitions.There is few of them
Try this link: http://www.boat-asia.com/exhibitorlist.asp


There is also a new magasine http://www.asia-pacificboating.com
For more information please contact me on my email

david@morosof.com


Hi George,

I have an interest in China's emerging yacht industry.
Is there a "Boating Industry Association" or similiar in China?
Where would I find industry information ie- numbers of boats built/sold, import/exports, new marina's (operating or proposed), dollar value of the industries, yacht club memberships, etc?

Regards,
Rob Thompson

[genuinemarine]

Dear David and Rob,

Tho only reason that I leave this message to you guys is to prove that it is not as difficult as you might think to find the information you need in China and lots of Chinese friends are happy to help you.

David, I will phone you again tomorrow night so that I could see how we could work together.

Rob, drop me an email and I will put together something for you.

[jusembo]

Yes George but also no.
That's all China in two word.

It's easy and it's dificult in same time.
Easy for you but so difficult for me.
You find in China the best craftsmans in the world, yes the best, and i'm ready to argue this with anybody, but you will also find the Darkness of the mind, deeper than in any other country.
Every day i meet peoples who have less mental faculty that...
This country is hell and paradise.
So, i think you loose time and energy by trying to summarize this country in few lines.
Especialy in a chat between Chinees and foreigners, most of them will just talking and will never do anything beyond their frontier.
You can't convince all the worl to come to China and if you do that it will not be China anymore it wil be something like...Hong Kong ;-)

Sorry for this intrusion. David@morosof.com

[Sam Bongo]

Dearest,

It is my pleasure to contact you for a business venture which I and my junior sister (Nadia) intend to establish in your country. Though I have not met with you before but I believe, one has to risk confiding in succeed sometimes in life. There is this huge amount of eight million U.S dollars($8,000,000.00) which my late Father kept for us with a Fiduciary Fund Holder in Abidjan before he was assasinated by unknown persons during this war in Cote d'ivoire.

Now I and my sister have decided to invest these money in your country or anywhere safe enough outside Africa for security and political reasons.We want you to help us claim and retrieve these fund from the Fiduciary Fund Holders and transfer it into your personal account in your country for investment purposes on these areas:
1). Telecommunication
The Transport Industry Five Star Hotel If you can be of an assistance to us we will be pleased to offer to you 10% Of the total fund.

I await your soonest response.

Respectfully yours.

Mr,Sam Bongo.
sam1_bongo@yahoo.com

[danmarine]

Hey guys,

Do you care for another persons 2 cents worth?

A quick reminder that China is not the only country in Asia. A lot of developing markets have the advantage of cheap labor and low taxes and its just a case of finding the one that most closely satisfies your requirements at the lowest risk.

Mr Neven is a member of the forum, based in Sumatra, Indonesia, and has a comprehensive website (www.promaritim.com) with insight into the factors which are unique to this area.
I am based in Phuket, Thailand, and can testify to a robust and developing yacht industry here.
Mr george is in china and sounds like he can offer assistance weather building boats or training as a diplomat.

I don’t earn a cent from promoting other peoples businesses, but as a foreign investor working in asia I appreciate the power of recommendation. Learn from other peoples mistakes, research options and risks on the internet, and best of all find someone with an unbiased, objective, understanding of both your requirements and the prevailing markets of these developing industries.
Now Im really going to be objective by saying “sometimes it is better, the devil you know, than the devil you don’t know”. As a foreign investor you will encounter many obstacles which are unforeseen. Time delays, language barriers, currency exchange, production hours, and quality expectations, will undoubtedly raise their ugliest heads.
What I am getting at is do not commit your finances until you feel confident with the results that they will produce. One off builders and small production lines are well advised to seek local/resident assistance in both research and manufacturing. The time and money spent on expat advice and assistance will be saved a million times over.

I expect this post to be flamed by Mr George, so please let me just say this. We, as outsiders to the American and European market, are required to produce a product and investment environment better than those offered elsewhere so as to be able to compete. No, this is not ‘Fair’ but then again we are asking investor to entrust us with their hard earned money and reputation. Unfamiliar culture, language, prior reputation and politics, all work against us, but we have big advantages also. We have to make the advantages so much bigger than the disadvantages, it is not about personal politics or saving face.

Please feel free to search my previous posts amongst which you will find a list of businesses and events in the Phuket region.

My Aim in this post is not to compete with other boat builders but simply to build boats. The more satisfied customers=the more boats built=the more repairs=infinity. ;)

Dan

[lemon]

Hi, 8knots:

Thanks a lot for your straight point and please keep in mind that no matter in the end whether we could agree with each other or not I would like to be your friend.

I really would prefer to discuss with friends here about building the boats instead of political issues but as you have initiated another topic which I do not agree I would like to correct a little bit.

Honestly both your designs of boats and idea of China suprised me a lot. I recommend your taking back the 2 cents and using them to get your knowledge of the current world brushed up. Yes you are right, I as a 100% Chinese, build boats for the money but more importantly I like the challenge and desire to prove we, teamed with international experts, can build the best boat in the world.

However before I present more of my ideas you are kindly requested to clarify the following points:

1. Have you ever been in China?

2. Where do you get those information about China?

3. Where are those boat builders of Nordhavn and Selene? Who are the distributors, designers, retailers of these two lines?

4. Did you check the specifications of these above two lines and where are the majority of the equipmetns from?

5. During the past few centuries, Has China invaded any country?

Please go through the above questions and let us know your comments.

Yours truly
George
Genune Marine&Yachts Inc


Not wanting to stir the pot too much, Tibet was invaded during the cultural revolution and remains occupied.
However, I have been to China and have much love for the culture and people. I have had some insight into the problems and benefits of the business environment. Foreign Investment conditional on improved health and safety and legal standards and audits would be beneficial to everyone. :idea:

xie xie

lemon

[genuineyachts]

If you want to contact Genuine Marine for more information about building yachts in China please feel free to contact us at: sales@genuinemarine.com

GenuineMarine

[genuineyachts]

Hey guys,

Do you care for another persons 2 cents worth?

A quick reminder that China is not the only country in Asia. A lot of developing markets have the advantage of cheap labor and low taxes and its just a case of finding the one that most closely satisfies your requirements at the lowest risk.

Mr Neven is a member of the forum, based in Sumatra, Indonesia, and has a comprehensive website (www.promaritim.com) with insight into the factors which are unique to this area.
I am based in Phuket, Thailand, and can testify to a robust and developing yacht industry here.
Mr george is in china and sounds like he can offer assistance weather building boats or training as a diplomat.

I don’t earn a cent from promoting other peoples businesses, but as a foreign investor working in asia I appreciate the power of recommendation. Learn from other peoples mistakes, research options and risks on the internet, and best of all find someone with an unbiased, objective, understanding of both your requirements and the prevailing markets of these developing industries.
Now Im really going to be objective by saying “sometimes it is better, the devil you know, than the devil you don’t know”. As a foreign investor you will encounter many obstacles which are unforeseen. Time delays, language barriers, currency exchange, production hours, and quality expectations, will undoubtedly raise their ugliest heads.
What I am getting at is do not commit your finances until you feel confident with the results that they will produce. One off builders and small production lines are well advised to seek local/resident assistance in both research and manufacturing. The time and money spent on expat advice and assistance will be saved a million times over.

I expect this post to be flamed by Mr George, so please let me just say this. We, as outsiders to the American and European market, are required to produce a product and investment environment better than those offered elsewhere so as to be able to compete. No, this is not ‘Fair’ but then again we are asking investor to entrust us with their hard earned money and reputation. Unfamiliar culture, language, prior reputation and politics, all work against us, but we have big advantages also. We have to make the advantages so much bigger than the disadvantages, it is not about personal politics or saving face.

Please feel free to search my previous posts amongst which you will find a list of businesses and events in the Phuket region.

My Aim in this post is not to compete with other boat builders but simply to build boats. The more satisfied customers=the more boats built=the more repairs=infinity. ;)

Dan

Hi, Dan,

I totally agree on your aim in this post and I am a 100% Chinese but I would rather call myself an international citizen.

Please rest assured that rather than competing with other boat builders I prefer to work with them and make the cake bigger so that everybody in the same industry have a bigger share.

By the way my only interest in the forum is to know more friends and know more about building boats. Look through all the message and you can see that I have no interest in training as diplomat.

Yours truly
George

[genuineyachts]

Not wanting to stir the pot too much, Tibet was invaded during the cultural revolution and remains occupied.
However, I have been to China and have much love for the culture and people. I have had some insight into the problems and benefits of the business environment. Foreign Investment conditional on improved health and safety and legal standards and audits would be beneficial to everyone. :idea:

xie xie

lemon

I totally agree on the second part of your above post and as everybody knows every coin has two sides and that is true in China as well as every other countries.

However not quite agree on the first part of your post and if your invade refers to the power take-over from the religion leader in Tibet to the central government of China that happened in 1950's instead of cultural revolution(1970's).

Anyway let us talk boats here and no politics.

Yours friend
George

[Michelle Huang]

We are the China Rep office of a territorial enterpreneurial association in Germany, one of our member, who is involved in the luxury yacht industry in Germany, is interested in entering China market and seeks for a Chinese partner in the fields of selling and manufacturing.

If you are interested in that, please contact me.

My e-mail address is himichelle66@hotmail.com.

[genuineyachts]

Hei, Guys,

Just want to keep you tuned of the lastest development of the yacht industry in China.The yacht business in China is booming now and as you might know that:

Sunseeker has already set up a office here in Shanghai an is building a marina in Qingdao.

Silverton of U.S.A has already appointed three dealers in China and is looking for more.

Mustang of Australia has already appointed three dealers in China and is looking for more.

Carver and Ferrite are also investigating to set up their presence in China.

Lots of local Chinese companies are seeking the opportunities to explore the yacht business right now and these can be easily demonstrated by the numerous yacht building zones and marinas which are under construction here in China.

For further information about yacht industry in China please feel free to contact Genuine Yachts, the boating professional in China at: sales@genuineyachts.com and we help our clients Experience The Authentic Nature Of Yachting.

Stay tuned with us.

Genuine Yachts Team
WWW.GENUINEYACHTS.COM

[genuineyachts]

Hi, Guys,

Here are some photos of some mega yachts which are being built in China.

You could also find article Ultimate Luxury Item, Made In China published in New York Times on July 3rd 2004.

Safe Cruising!

James Georgechen
Genuine Yachts Team
Sales@genuineyachts.com
www.genuineyachts.com

[genuineyachts]

Hi, Boaters,

We are proud to announce that Genuine Yachts Ltd has been appointed as the exclusive agent of Boats.com and Yachtworld.com in China.

GenuineYachts aims to be the leading marketing firm specialized in the yacht business of China and we offer our expertise to those Chinese boat builders and other marine units who are interested in exploring the international markets and those international companies who are interested in China markets. We are planning to team together all those who are experts in the different fields of this industry so that we could offer our clients a professional, efficient service that fits in China.

We sincerely hope that our efforts in this aspect could help promote the mutual business, technical and culture exchange between the yacht industry of China and those of the other nations.

If you are interested in exploring the yacht industry of China or would like to know more about the marine circles, contacts and what is going on in the yacht industry of China please feel free to contact us.

Genuine Yachts Ltd
Experience The Authentic Nature Of Yachting
undefinedWeb:www.genuineyachts.com
Email: sales@genuineyachts.com

[glossdesign]

Hi Genuine Yachts,
we are very interested in cooperation with you.
please contact us!

[Daniel Fenton]

Greetings

A. & S. Consultants spe******e is Technical and Marine recruitment (Internationally). Attached is a list of candidates we have available. If you require any further information, please feel free to contact us.

Kind regards
A. & S. Consultants Int. Ltd.

Daniel Fenton
Marine Recruitment Consultant

[ChinaYacht]

I came across the message but just found it disappointing.

I am China-based yacht exporter, and our products have been exported to American and European market.

When marketing our products, I did meet some who refuse our products just because they are China-made, and was told they refuse such a communist counutry as China.Ok,as we are businessman of course, we talk only business,we took it easy when refused and were not ready to talking them into accepting our products. Everyone could do whatever he like if he/she thinks it appropriate.

We are interested in developing and expanding our business, but only with those real businessman.

ChinaYacht@yahoo.com.cn

[Kelly Lim]

Hi Guys,

You may like to consider exhibiting or visiting at the only marine equipment and accessories show in Guangzhou China - BOAT TECH CHINA (01 to 03 June 2005) at CECF Complex (Liuhua). www.BoatTechChina.com

Boat Tech China will showcase the latest boat design, equipments, systems, materials and accessories, all under one roof! It is specifically aimed at supporting the boatbuilding industry in China, specifically matchmaking foreign marine companies who want to find sources of lower cost manufacture in China and for foreign companies who want to sell skills and technology to the marine industry there.

Do feel free to contact us for more information or for participation.

Best Regards,
Kelly Lim
Project Manager
Boat Tech China 2005
Suntec Integrated Media
DID: 65 68252050
Email: kelly.lim@suntecintegratedmedia.com

[Bob Ames]

In the late 80's I was in the business of designing, and selling windsurfing fins. I spent 4 years improving production techniques for RTM, only to find out that a finished, delivered product from China was cheaper than my raw materials in the US. We began importing fins from China, via various reps in Hong Kong, who worked the mainland facilities. Quality was always a problem. I'd send detailed specifications only to have the specs ignored. I learned that my standards were too high (blue fibers mixed in a white polyester fin seemed OK to them, and blades were never accurate, and sometimes mislabeled). I offered to pay more for what I wanted, but it never came. I don't know if my displeasure with quality was considered offensive or not. I just didn't get any answers that were straight, or fins I wanted. I do believe you can get what you want from China if your company has a full time presence in Hong Kong and 'manages' your quality standards. Neil Pryde has been successfully building in China for years through this formula. I got out of the fin business since.

Bob Ames, NA. http://www.bana.com

[Wynand N]

Hi everyone :)

I have read this post and replies with interest. The heated debate between genuinemarine and others at times put a smile on my dail.

However, whether we like it or not, China is an awakening industrial gaint and soon to be the biggest superpower in the world.
People in the USA should be coming used to this statement, whether they like it or not, and this also goes for all of us.

At the end it all boils down to numbers. In my country, we made peace with with that, whether we like it or not. You you just cannot stop the majority.

And when it comes to China, they are the majority in the world, well over 1.2 billion on the last count if I am not mistaken. It is just a matter of time.

Then again, some of the photos of yards and boats posted of China are impressive indeed.

[genuineyachts]

Hi, Boaters,

Here is the latest updates about Genuine Marine and China Yacht Industry:

Genuine Marine Ltd proudly announces that we are now the authorized distributor in China for Schaefer Marine in U.S.A, Gebo in Netherland, Istotherm and Vimar in Italy, Selden in Sweden and negotiations with other marine manufacturers are under way.

Besides Yachtworld.com and Boats.com, we are also representing American Boat&Yacht Council and European Certification Buraue in China to promote their business here.

We are working with some designers who approached us via this post and helping them locate the right yards in China to build their design. We believe we could help cement some concrete business for those who have already approached us soon.

According to our latest conversations with those local yacht builders in China, most of those quality yards have had their order book full this year and some even full until 2007. More new yards are being set up now and lots of local and international investors are investigating and evaluating the market and the industry here according to our talks with China Boat and Trade Association.

One of the new comer we could like to mention is OceAnco, a mega yacht builder from Monaco and they are now building their brand new catamaran designs (www.sophieyachts.com) in China now too.

Statistics from the January Issue of ShowBoas International shows that Taiwan, R.O.P ranks itself no 5 in the 2005 Mega Yacht Order Book with mainland of China as no 8.

Genuine Marine continues to serve as the bridge between those international companies and those local Chinese yards for business, technical and cultural exchange as well as for mutual development.

Feel free to contact us for more about the China yacht industry if you would like to explore the market here.


Genuine Marine Team
We Help Build Better Boats
Web: www.genuinemarine.com
Email: sales@genuinemarine.com

[peterhutton95]

dear sir
i want to buy a 50ft twin diesel motors quality fit out for about $A500,000
new or willing to order
can u help
peter hutton

[cyclops]

I find it difficult to beleive that the minister of China's boat and yacht industry has to use our forum for getting Boat companies to gladly build their boats in China. I am overcome.

[normbaker]

I wonder if Genuine Marine is really genuine in its desires to do anything but what brings foreign currency into the country so it can employ lots of local people, or whether it is like Integrity Yachts, another China boat yard who does not live up to its name.

There are very few good boat yards in China capable of building to ABYC standards (how could they, they have never done a training course and don't know the high standards expected and too many of their home grown knock-off items don't stand the test of time to even make it out of the boatyard.

Those very few Chinese yards who do a good job have had US companies invest a lot of time and money into raising their standard to an acceptable level and now most of these yards are too busy to take on any more work.

So who is looking for boats to build in China. The Chinese knock-off boatyards, some who set themselves up with fake histories and lies to convince you that they can turn out a quality boat.

It takes more than due diligence and a signed contract to do business in China and only the large companies who invest millions in the country will succeed. The small companies going in, like I did, get eaten up and spat out and the contract conditions change as quick as it takes the ink to dry. Even a contract that has a guarantee underwritten by a Chinese Government Company stating everything will be fine and if not we will give you all your money back is not worth the paper it's written on when the Government Company will not communicate with your repeated attempts to reach them and seek the retribution that they guaranteed under their letterhead.

Nice photos of one compnay and you can be sure it took them some time to prepare it for the shoot. 90% of the yards I saw I would not build a dinghy in.

Tread very softly my friend, or have a lot of money you wish to donate to China's manufacturing stranglehold on the world, if you intend to build in China.

[trawlercatbuild]

I suggest anyone considering a China build read thread concerning same under
marketplace forum

[yokebutt]

Genuine and Integrity sounds kinda' bogus, sort of like saying "we will never, never, never, never, ever cheat you".

Yoke.

[normbaker]

Hi Genuine Marine, Would you please tell us the name and location of the boatyard in China that is or will be building the first Sophia power catamaran?

[normbaker]

Hi Again, Genuine Marine, I tried to go to your web site only to find you want me to install Chinese/English translator software. I would never do that, so I clicked cancel in the box you provided and instead of cancelling, your web site opened up in Chinese.

Not very good or very genuine, Genuine Marine. Now I can expect to be bombarded by all sorts of Chinese scams and pop up ups and possible viruses as happened once before when I entered into Chinese "air space".

If this happens I will ask the forum director to have you permannetly removed.

[mastcolin]

Norm

I wouldn't worry. It was just your Explorer needing the case set for chinese characters. You must have had it already installed or it wouldn't go to site. I went to look and only got the damn chinese. For a company wanting a western connection it seemed odd not to have english version.

ps I'm here in china working on the 2 big superyachts pictured earlier in thread. I'll keep you guys abreast.(european owner)

pps never mind invading tibet. What about invading Iraq? Isn't that more recent? Don't get me started on the politics of it all. Most of the western world is as bad - it's just easier from our perspective to ignore it all and go drink our starbucks, drive our SUV home and lock our doors and watch Fox.

pps see my comments on another thread from trawlerbuild

[normbaker]

Hi Mastcolin,

I'd love to hear your news on building superyachts in China. Where, what yard, what is the quality like, are they on schedule?

How long have you been there?

I would not have thought it possible from what I saw.

We had a standing joke when I was in China that the only decisions made at a Chinese production meeting was the date and time of the next meeting.

Will check trawlerbuild. Thanks.

[Chickadee]

Hello,

I need informations and contacts about chinese production of modern cruising sailboats, if any! Could the Chinese posters provide me with some news ? What are the current events in the Shenzen area? I've heard they want to develop the boating industry for the 2008 OG.

Is there any 10-12 m model to see ? I have my own drawings, but I'd like too see something already built.

Links are welcome since urls provided don't show much :(

PS genuinemarine website needs some work, just sent pics of boats and yards and data and I could do something for you ;)

[normbaker]

Hi Chickadee,

I'm sure you've seen my July 1st posting above. You souund like the type of person Genuine Marine and all the other small yards are looking for to sucker in and finance their learning curve.

Genuine Marine seems to have stuck his head back in the sand as soon as the replies got too hot for him to handle.

It's Caveat Emptor big time to go money in hand to a Chinese boatyard. They will tell you everything you want to hear.

Beware my friend.

[Chickadee]

Thanks for your advice normbaker. As you said, just try to dig a bit and nothing clear comes out from this. No problem, I have only ideas and not a cent to invest, but I know there are very wealthy people in China and some who want to develop boating. This might take time.

I had a plan to promote their (future) products. Not sure they are ready for that yet and we have to wait to see anything original coming from their yards. There will be more delocalisations from big US or Euro shipyards, exporting their knowledge like they have done decades ago, to other Asian countries, but those don't need my two cents !

[Tim B]

Chickadee,

If you're in Europe... Build in Europe. There is sound reason for this, It's a lot easier to get to the yard. Find somewhere local (or localish) and go down every Monday morning or every other Monday. Then if there are problems you can work through them together, and if you have a new idea it can probably be incorporated. It also lets you check on the quality, and solve problems before they occur. Only when you totally trust a yard can you just contract them to do the work. If they're overseas, then whatever their reputation, I personally wouldn't contract them. Especially in the world of small craft there is far too much risk for the financial saving.

All the best,

Tim B.

[Chickadee]

Tim: I agree 100%

I was looking for Chinese funding, to promote their sailboat production. Perhaps not the best place to discuss this. ;)

As I can't find any modern Chinese cruising sailing boat, debate is closed.

[RANCHI OTTO]

I agree with Tim 100% too.
"..China the top choiche for building the quality yachts..."
Excessive... ! China shipyards build cheep, sure for wellknown reason...

[genuineyachts]

Hi, Guys,

The only reason that I did not reply to the posts is that I have not checked Boatdesign.net for a long time. Now I am back and well prepared for any discussion here.

First of all, as a Chinese I admit that like anywhere else there are good boatyards and bad boatyards in China. There are quite a lot of things the China yacht industry has to do in the future and has to learn in the terms of management, building technology, business philosophy and so no. However things here are improving. After all China is still developing country.

We do not want to grab all the boat contracts into China and China could not handle all these. I think what we are doing here is to promote the industry here so that we could build a better boats for not just you guys abroad but also for the Chinese people.

Normbaker, your stories here look very interesting and however before I answer your question could you please identify yourself first? If you want anybody here believe what you have said here it might be better to let us know who you are and where you are. I might be able to get some of our mutual friends aboard such as Paul, Len and maybe the designer who have checked the lamination schedule of your boats so that everybody here could know the whole story. Now I am getting my head out of the sand now and will you show your face?

Chickadee, thanks a lot for kind offer in our website and honestly I am very busy right now and could not offer any time on the construction of our website. However I will definite get it started soon and please wait and see.

The fault in our website is mine not the website.

Thanks and your comments are welcome.


Yours truly
James Georgechen
Genuine Marine Ltd
Tel:86-755-86175706
Fax:86-755-86175705
Web: www.genuinemarine.com
Email: sales@genuinemarine.com

[seadogs20]

Dc I really think that you should surf the net and check out what China is up to, you must have been under a rock for the last 10 yrs,no insult intended:)

[MARHOUN]

Dear genuinemarine,

Im interested in yacht, and i want to know more if i can please contact you by your e-mail or u can e-mail me at ( marhoun235@hotmail.com ) :(
Thank you and best regards !