small horsepower hydraulic drive

[Paul No Boat]

I have been following along on many threads about hydraulic drives and it seems that heat is everyone's biggest concern. Is this only at very high horsepower and large loads? I am into riding scale model railroads where we run all day on 8-16 horsepower gas engines hydraulicly coupled to the drive axels and see no power loss from days start to finish and they run relatively quiet. I am planning to build a catboat in the 20 foot range and think hydraulic power from an 8 to 10 horse engine would be ideal. Any comments?

[CDK]

If the losses are say 10%, your 10 hp plant will generate 736 watts of heat in the pump, plumbing and hydro-motors and you won't notice it. If the quietness and easy of installation justify it, why not? You didn't choose the most efficient way to transport energy but that wasn't your goal.

With several 100's hp and the same relative losses the situation is quite different, especially if a lot of daily engine hours are involved..

[Paul No Boat]

What I like most about hydraulic transmission is the abiity to place the engine almost anywhere in the boat and not even necessarily inline. A 10% loss of power in a boat that is already overpowered to accomidate a generator or other systems would probably not even be noticable.

[gonzo]

It is a heavy inneficient drive. Losses of 25-30% are common. Hydraulic drives are good for winches and other uses where overload is a possiblity. The release valve prevents the system from damage. As a drive, unless you have a really unusual configuration it is not efficient.

[Willallison]

Vetus make a range of small hp hydraulic propulsion systems. www.vetus.com

[Paul No Boat]

I can see where hydraulic drives are inefficient in huge machinery including boats or in performance boats that are changing their inertia a lot but I don't understand the losses in a small boat such as a 20 ft catboat I am wanting to build. after all hydro drive is in our lives everyday in the form of an automatic transmission in our cars or power steering to garden tractors and nobody seems to give it much thought. I just like the idea that you can install the engine almost anywhere in any position and that if built using standard parts is easily maintained. and forward/reverse is nothing more than a simple valve. I love simplicity.

[marshmat]

Losses of 25-30% are common
Perhaps if the system is built from cheap gear pumps, gerotors and the like. But good quality, variable displacement piston pumps and motors are readily available with around 95% efficiency- for a pump, motor, and losses in the hoses, valves and cooler, total losses due to the hydraulics shouldn't be more than 15%.

Specify good components according to sound engineering principles, and it should work reliably for years. Specify cheap crap from the bargain bin (as is often done), and you'll be wondering why your pumps keep leaking and your fluid reservoir smells like burning.

Cooling won't be a show-stopper on a 10 hp, 2000-3000 psi system for a boat, certainly not when compared against a 500 hp, 6000 psi system for a concrete pump or excavator. The operating temperature, the oil's viscosity/temperature curve and the pump/motor's viscosity requirement all have to coincide- shouldn't be too hard to do with low loads and lots of water around.

The trickiest part, IMHO, would be if you want to automate things a bit, ie. a load sensing pump or auto-throttle on the engine, so that you wouldn't have to manually match the engine throttle and the pump displacement.

[Paul No Boat]

In the type of boat I am considering simplicity would be the order of the day. A boat typically powered by 5-8 horsepower. I would only be using a larger engine of 8-12 hp to power a generator and because the v-twins are so much quieter and smoother than singles. Not much more than a cub cadet garden tractor really.

[CDK]

When may we expect "Paul With Boat"?

[apex1]

In my humble opinion there is nothing to say against such arrangement (Matt and CDK pointed already out where some restrictions are)

BUT........installing the engine "where you want" is unfortunately not that easy.
Weight distribution in the boats ends, and the fact that IC engines do´nt like to be operated at heeling angles restricts the choices of installation, and commonly one ends up with a engine near the centre of movement again.

Yeah, and "Paul with boat" would be nice!

Regards
Richard

[Paul No Boat]

Ok guys, Got it. I should design some credibility into my name. I guess I could just as easily join a flying website and call myself "Paul No Learjet". lol

actually, I would be operating this boat on an 11000 acre lake in the midwest with light winds so it would be used more as a launch than a sailboat so heeling would not be as much of a consideration but I do see Apex's point that there might be other considerations than just engine placement or simplicity of transmission.

Location and heeling angle would be a consideration no matter what drive system is used. If the wind is strong enough to heel the boat why would I be using the engine anyway?

I am seeking a set of plans for John D. Little Catboat and posted but so far no replies. I know Mr. Little is deceased but his designs were sure beautiful and this is one of those common cases where a boat might be built but rarely sailed.

I joined a forum about it but there has been no posts in several years.
here is the boat I am seeking. http://www.sailblogs.com/member/flanderscat/

any help finding this plan or a very similar one would be appreciated.

[apex1]

Oh, ja, now I know which sort of boat we are talking. (did´nt even know what a cat boat is). I agree, that for such size of boat we are not talking about heel angles when underway, especially not on that lake. But bear in mind that you do´nt need much weight in the ends of the boat to keep her sailing performance!

Good luck!
Richard

[Paul No Boat]

Yeah the hydraulic system I would require would be not much more than that of a log splitter. We run them all day on park trains with no seeable losses or problems.

[marshmat]

Sounds workable to me.

Just don't try to put it together out of leftover bargain-bin parts. If you swipe a cheap gear pump off a logsplitter and couple it to whatever five-cc gerotor happens to be in the bargain bin this week, you'll probably be disappointed.

If you take the time to sort through the catalogues for a properly sized, variable displacement piston pump and a suitable motor (the ratio of pump to motor displacement giving your RPM reduction), and you actually sit down and do the pressure and flow calculations for the circuit, you should be able to make it work for your stated requirements. You might even find lawn tractor parts that are suitable, if you hunt around long enough and dig up actual specifications for them.

[Marine Nut]

I recently found this article as I was doing some research.. It may offer some insight to the "hydraulic question"

http://sbmar.com/main/articles/some_tips_experiences_on_hydraulically_driven_sailboats/

Cheers

Marine Nut

[marshmat]

Very interesting, Marine Nut.

If specifying such a system for more aggressive use (eg. not just for getting in and out of harbour), I would make one change to Tony's design: replacing what appear to be gear pumps with variable-displacement axial piston pumps. That should cut the losses in the pump from 15-20% to about 5%, leaving the whole system (pump, valves, hoses, motors) at 80, maybe 85% overall efficiency. The cost? More money (of course) and either an automatic control to match pump displacement and engine RPM, or a second control lever for pump displacement (akin to the "pitch" lever on a CPP drive). I'd leave the engine as variable RPM, of course; the idea is to match the combination of RPM and pump displacement to provide the needed power with the engine turning at its most efficient speed for that particular power setting.

It still won't be as efficient as a simple shaft to a big prop, but it'd be a step up (in both performance and price) from the simple auxiliary drives described in the article.

[Marine Nut]

Matt,

I think the gap has closed more than you think between modern gear pumps operating at 3000-3500 PSI vs piston pumps at the same pressures, especially PC ones when you do not have manual control over the displacement. They are big power robbers at anything less than close to full output.

What you said was the "KEY", having control over the displacement and the engine RPM.. Between the two and the way a prop loads the engine, yes, matching is 100% to each load and RPM.. But, with a properly sized FIXED displacement system, having throttle control is very close to what would be ideal in a much simpler system.

I also look at it as "what is the highest practical pressure" you want under the deck, ( maybe 3500 max), as that is about all us laymen can afford.. Above that, efficiency does rise with piston pumps, but with that comes way more than just the cost of the pump.. All fittings, valves and hoses now take a quantum leap as to cost if you want a good safety factor.. And yes, pushing what modern piston pumps can do (5000+ PSI now) efficiency goes up, but again, how much in the practical sense when you look at the big picture?

As to what is right to each application-- For short term use (harbor use or getting out of the harbor when things are not just right, or to just help the sails a tad if you are trying to avoid a tak, then I think what this guy has done is admirable based on all.........


Marine Nut

[CalGuySkip]

I broke all the rules. when my A4 froze due to a freak cold snap, I was confronted with the choice A4 or something else. the Aholes at moyermarine backed out of a deal where i had the high res cad stuff for the foundry. so i
tossed the whole hateful smog making mess in the recycle bin and ....

i started with a kohler 2cyc .62liter 18 horse air cooled. I used a SAE B mount for both the prince 2.003 cuinch pump and a parker 4.0 cu inch motor.
this afforded me the same basic ratio as the hateful A4 v-drive.

I made a heat exchanger from pipe and 4" pvc pipe and a aquatiger water pump. i got the 3 gallon tank and all else from surplus center.com

i made hoses and uses a mech open center spool valve and a brand hydro flow control valve. once i got every thing sorted out i replaced the manual valves with electric ones.

VERY IMPORTANT I USE EXXONMOBILE FR200 ETHYLENE GLYCOL FIRE RESISTANT HYDRO FLUID. OIL BASED IS SO DANGEROUS FOR SO MANY REASONS. it will leak and burn like a N.Carolina chicken fryer. poly glycol works too, and is a good chaser with tanquerey 10.

anyway ... it runs at 2-25 gpm @ 300-500 psi.

i made a microcontroller that controls the throttle and choke using industrial metal gear servos and the electric spool valve. the brand electro flow valve is controled with a mosfet transistor coupled to the microcontroller.

i then used heavyduty pots and buried them in an indian rosewood tiller.

so now i can start stop throttle up, control pressure and direction from the tiller. all so easy and simple. in summer i have a radiator fan to blow the heat out and in the winter the heat feels so nice comeing out of the salon into the cockpit. i have used this for 6 years and never had a problem.

glycol is the perfect hydro fluid and it works at temps that freezes hydro oil. and sooooo safe. trust me this is very important unless you like running for your life.

total cost $2700. the way i look at it i can deep 6 the whole setup 5 times before i even cross the cost of the hateful a4. also the kohler is electric and pull start. it is epa approved and will freeze long after hell does.

from smallengine warehouse i got the 25 amp upgrade and a exhaust set. a bit of welding and the thing is so quiet and i can run all my lowpower tronics like sea clear II runining on a VIA fanless itx pc with a 64 gig SSD a phylon 10'touch screen and the open cpn tide and current software.
i bought a garmin 5 gps and a bushnell sat xm weather / radio, as wel as a thin panasonic blue ray dvd spinner for the little pc. nothing to wear out or break. totally done and complete.

[FAST FRED]

ON our boat we use Hyd for steering , the big fancy wheel simply operates a valve , and 2 solenoids operate from the auto pilot , no cooler at all.

When we decided to add a circuit for the windlass the mfg recommended some cooling.

Our solution (the windlass is used for maybe 10 min a day) was to run the supply and return hose thru the bilge.

There is always an inch or two of water there and so far it works hust fine.

A simple solution!

Be sure to order ALL your hoses with swivel fittings on both ends, or you may end up spinning 30 ft of hose to install it.

Remember you have a GASOLINE boat so pumps , alts and the rest must be gas compliant.
FF

[kbowen]

If you take the time to sort through the catalogues for a properly sized, variable displacement piston pump and a suitable motor .....

Why variable displacement? Couldn't you just have a reversing valve and use the engine rpm to vary speed?

[Submarine Tom]

And what would the maintenance costs look like I wonder.

My experience is high.

-Tom

[whitepointer23]

put an 8 hp fourstroke outboard on the back and keep things simple. much nicer to have the engine on the back and save the room inside for accomodation.

[kbowen]

put an 8 hp fourstroke outboard on the back and keep things simple. much nicer to have the engine on the back and save the room inside for accomodation.

Since your signature-block contains something about twin 318 Chryslers, I suspect we might be speaking different languages, but I was thinking about some smaller system with hoses that I could ship inboard and out-of sight, out-of-smell easier than an outboard. Also, the typical 8hp outboard is engineered to drive a 14' aluminum boat at 15-20mph not a 6000# double-ender at 6mph.

[FAST FRED]

Also, the typical 8hp outboard is engineered to drive a 14' aluminum boat at 15-20mph not a 6000# double-ender at 6mph.

"Typical outboard ", yes , however there ARE high thrust outboards with big props and heavy gearing that are made just for this.No problem.

FF

[kbowen]

Also, the typical 8hp outboard is engineered to drive a 14' aluminum boat at 15-20mph not a 6000# double-ender at 6mph.

"Typical outboard ", yes , however there ARE high thrust outboards with big props and heavy gearing that are made just for this.No problem.

FF

Can you refer me to some examples of these engines that you like? I would still have the question of how to mount and ship the monster over a very skinny double-ended stern... Or make a motor well, or ????

[whitepointer23]

Since your signature-block contains something about twin 318 Chryslers, I suspect we might be speaking different languages, but I was thinking about some smaller system with hoses that I could ship inboard and out-of sight, out-of-smell easier than an outboard. Also, the typical 8hp outboard is engineered to drive a 14' aluminum boat at 15-20mph not a 6000# double-ender at 6mph.

sorry to offend you, i was just stating an option thats all. as fred says, there are high thrust outboards for houseboats and yacht auxillarys, you would have to live under a big rock not to know that. i can see your point in that an outboard might not look good on your type of boat but it is an easy fit with a bracket or build a well, i personally don't like wells but they do have some advantages. even a standard outboard with the right prop will push your boat fine . i wouldn't think a modern outboard would be as smelly as a motor mounted in the boat.

[whitepointer23]

Since your signature-block contains something about twin 318 Chryslers, I suspect we might be speaking different languages, but I was thinking about some smaller system with hoses that I could ship inboard and out-of sight, out-of-smell easier than an outboard. Also, the typical 8hp outboard is engineered to drive a 14' aluminum boat at 15-20mph not a 6000# double-ender at 6mph.

sorry, thought i was talking to the original post not a blow in. and i thought cat boats had straight transoms.

[marshmat]

Why variable displacement? Couldn't you just have a reversing valve and use the engine rpm to vary speed?
The point of a variable displacement pump is one of two things:
- If you have a constant speed engine, variable pumps give variable speed;
- If you have a variable speed engine, variable pumps let you match the engine speed to the load, in the same manner as a car's multi-speed or CVT transmission, or a workboat's controllable-pitch prop. This gives a more efficient system and greatly extends engine life.
If you're just trying to get in and out of harbour, a simple fixed pump and reversing valve is simpler and cheaper. Variable stuff is called for in heavy- or continuous-duty applications.