The client is always right...?

[Willallison]

The client is always right....

This was pointed out by another member a short time ago. My response was:

Ask most designers and I'm pretty sure they'd tell you that the customer is usually wrong - just that it's not always prudent to tell them so:D

To which he replied...

I expect that the designers with this view not inundated with design briefs


Thoughts...?

[Paul B]

The client is always right....


Thoughts...?

The successful designers I know do not provide design work to clients that they do not fully support.

Their reputation is worth more than one, or two, or a few contracts.


Designers who are starving don't seem to be so picky.

[Landlubber]

We may have to stand on the other side of the counter sometimes to see how we are regarded in life......I try to pease my customers as being right, it is my pleasure to do so, my opinions are expressed if asked for, or I feel thet the customer is really in trouble, but otherwise, he who pays the piper calls the tunes.

[TollyWally]

LOL,
I build for a living and the client, at the end of the day, is always right. Except for one little thing, the majority can't see the forest for the trees. One has to protect the customer from himself if only to keep the project from floundering and to keep your reputation intact.

The professional has to guide the customer into making an intelligent decision. Education first and guile second. I try to distill the customer's desires into a limited menu of choices often with them being unaware of it. Ironically the customers best suited for making technical decisions are often the most likely to leave it in your hands with minimal input from themselves. I think this might be a sign of confidence and personal security. They don't have anything to prove, wouldn't have hired you if they didn't trust you, and have confidence that if something is really about to go wrong they will spot it and avert disaster.

My old man told me once that the most important thing was to qualify the customer. It was better to gracefully withdraw if the customer was going to excessively hinder the process. My .02.

[apex1]

Being in a similar situation, I fully concur with T W.

[Willallison]

My 1st statement was, of course, meant to be (slightly) tongue in cheek. And whilst, at the end of the day, the designer is employed by his client, surely one's professional responsibility is - as TW says - to steer the client towards the best solution - not simply accept that because they are paying the bills, one should blindly follow their instructions.
It probably depends a great deal in which sphere you operate - commercial or recreational vessels too. The former, probably more likely to come to you with a sensible design brief...
Also too, just how experienced a yachtsman the client is....

[Landlubber]

Willallison, It has been my experiences that the customer is generally very experienced and quite knowledgable, as I do custom sort of work.

I guess if we were making caravans on the water then you do get very inexperienced customers, but my boati building life has been with restoration of rather expensive vessels or helping other builders do their thing.

The only people that had no ideas at all are the first time buyers, but I do not deal with that sort of boat anyhow.

It is the customers dream to have built what he see at the time, it is our responsibility to try and make that dream come true, and yes we certainly do steer things to a better (read more practical) solution at times, but I still feel that the dream we are creating must remain that of the customer, influenced only by our knowledge of what is "right"...and styling here is not our forte...it is the customers ideas coming to life.

My last big job was a 120 footer for a Brisbane developer, it started out as a discussion one day and ended up as a complete concept design Ocean Explorer, complete with bling bling, but still capable of doing the job....and I have to admit, I liked the design a lot in the end.

[Crag Cay]

One thing I've learnt is to keep very detailed records of all discussions with the client and any decisions made. I always forward to them a copy of the 'minutes' of any meetings which spell out the advice I proffered and whether they accepted it or not. The same with letters and email; I always 'confirm' their instructions which include phrases such as 'the client insisted' or 'the client declined option A and chose to go with their own preferred solution', etc. I start the practice right from the start so it looks like a 'normal operating procedure', rather than suddenly impose it if things get shaky.

It's amazing how many clients 'forget' what was their 'bright ideas' when later they turn out to be not that brilliant in practice, or cost twice what they hoped.

[jehardiman]

While it is more clear cut in the private sector, in the public sector it is important to keep a clear picture of who "the customer" is. In one project I had to explain to the Project Funding Officier that he paid me to prevent him from killing sailors and wasteing taxpayer monies.

[Wynand N]

The client is always right...

No, not always...

[baeckmo]

"...the client is always right.......the first fourteen days, then I am right."

Cited from one of my first mentors in the boat-building business; classic boat-building master Sven Jacobsson.

[apex1]

"...the client is always right.......the first fourteen days, then I am right."

Cited from one of my first mentors in the boat-building business; classic boat-building master Sven Jacobsson.

He obviously did know the business from the very ground:D

[kach22i]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inundated
in·un·date (nn-dt, nn-)
tr.v. in·un·dat·ed, in·un·dat·ing, in·un·dates
1. To cover with water, especially floodwaters.
2. To overwhelm as if with a flood; swamp: The theater was inundated with requests for tickets.

Based on the second definition, I suspect he is also right.

[kach22i]

One thing I've learnt is to keep very detailed records of all discussions with the client and any decisions made. I always forward to them a copy of the 'minutes' of any meetings which spell out the advice I proffered and whether they accepted it or not. The same with letters and email; I always 'confirm' their instructions which include phrases such as 'the client insisted' or 'the client declined option A and chose to go with their own preferred solution', etc. I start the practice right from the start so it looks like a 'normal operating procedure', rather than suddenly impose it if things get shaky.

It's amazing how many clients 'forget' what was their 'bright ideas' when later they turn out to be not that brilliant in practice, or cost twice what they hoped.
You are very organized, I admire that. In my field (architecture) the creative design types are not very often the best business people nor the most organized. Your method I would think is very effective, but can it be used on "rush jobs"?

[Guest625101138]

It is a sad reflection on any professional who takes the view that the customer is usually wrong. Inevitably personal beliefs get reinforced through subtle actions and behaviors.

If the customer is wrong then it is the the professional who is at fault for taking a combative stance and not spending sufficient time with the customer to gain mutual understanding.

Rick

[Willallison]

Rick - do you ever actually think about what you are writing?:confused:

[Obsession]

It is a sad reflection on any professional who takes the view that the customer is usually wrong. Inevitably personal beliefs get reinforced through subtle actions and behaviors.
No one wants to hire a professional who is only a yes-man even if he knows a great mistake is being made. It might be pleasant and easy in the short term, but when the yes-man allows the client to go down the wrong path and the project suffers, who is to blame?

If the customer is wrong then it is the the professional who is at fault for taking a combative stance and not spending sufficient time with the customer to gain mutual understanding.

Rick
Agreed there, though sometimes rarely the customer will be thick and immovable in their wrong-idea. The key is presenting a qualified opinion and clear assessment at each stage of the game. If the customer is hell-bent on something that you know will not work, should you help spend the customer's money on something with a very very small chance of success? Only if you are sure the customer understands the situation and after you've done your best to present them with better options. That's my opinion.

[Guest625101138]

This thread will be a useful reference for anyone intending to engage a professional.

Paul B, Landlubber, and TollyWally are currently on the top of the list.

Rick W

[Landlubber]

Rick,

I am saddened to see the "professional" responses to 90% saying NO.
From the comments, there is no disputing that the customer is wrong and needs to be led by the hand and spoon fed, sounds like a politician pushing his barrow for social engineering..they know better than we do for what is good for us.....like hell they do.

....now watch the sparks fly.....

Has the so called professional become that much up itself that it only can see themselves as being of worth......no wonder I dislike politicians, priests, accountants and lawyers, I mght be adding NA's to that list too....

[Guest625101138]

Rick,

I am saddened to see the "professional" responses to 90% saying NO.
From the comments, there is no disputing that the customer is wrong and needs to be led by the hand and spoon fed, sounds like a politician pushing his barrow for social engineering..they know better than we do for what is good for us.....like hell they do.

....now watch the sparks fly.....

Has the so called professional become that much up itself that it only can see themselves as being of worth......no wonder I dislike politicians, priests, accountants and lawyers, I mght be adding NA's to that list too....

Hopefully your outlook brings you plenty of return work. I know a few of the people who lurk here quietly take notice of these exchanges and will likely have you high on their list, as I do, if they get to the point of ever putting some money on the table for a boat.

A few of the respondents in the business must be comfortable with their present lot because they will not gain business based on comments expressed here - it is a public forum and they have declared themselves. I have copied all the posts so when asked to make a recommendation for a NA I can use them as references.

I know one NA who frustrates me even, because he tries so hard to please. He will try to work a solution long after I think it is not worthy of effort. I think that is the challenge for him to come up with something that was not previously contemplated and is unexpected. It does mean the client has to be a little patient. Actually I was once told by a very good mechanical engineer working on a project under my control that I could not simply crack a whip and yell "CREATE, CREATE". He was making the point that the mental process cannot be forced and my presence was not helping.

It is nice to know there are at least a few here who are not cynical about there clients and give them high regard.

Rick W

[Willallison]

..they know better than we do for what is good for us.....

Well... yes... that's why you use one.....
You know you're feeling sick... why bother to go see a doctor? Because they are qualified, experienced and are better able to diagnose your ailment....
You know you want to fly from Sydney to Melbourne.... why bother to pay a pilot to fly the plane....

Nobody's suggesting that everything a client brings forth is wrong... and clearly there is a huge variance in the level of knowledge from one client to the next. And nobody's saying they know 'better than you do what's good for you'. But in general, a qualified and experienced professional is likely to be better placed to solve the myriad of design decisions that are involved in designing a succesful boat.

The result of this poll is a demonstration of the experiences of the professionals who have participated in it. There's no sense getting all antsy about it... at a ratio of 20:1 they all appear to support the obviously somewhat tongue-in-cheek statement that I made which sparked all this off

[Guest625101138]

...

The result of this poll is a demonstration of the experiences of the professionals who have participated in it. There's no sense getting all antsy about it... at a ratio of 20:1 they all appear to support the obviously somewhat tongue-in-cheek statement that I made which sparked all this off

I see 20:3. And as more start to think seriously about the pompous know-all outlook of someone who thinks the person paying them is invariably wrong I expect the ratio will change.

I also note you are now watering it down to tongue-in-cheek statement. I can see you are starting to get concerned about how people might perceive your comments about your client relationships. From the comments I have received privately you should be concerned as you have not done your reputation any good - maybe you are so well placed with work you don't give a hoot anyhow.

Rick W

[Obsession]

Your stance sounds good and is well written, and apologies if I don't get what you say, but it sounds a bit of a word game too.

When you say:
If the customer is wrong then it is the the professional who is at fault for taking a combative stance and not spending sufficient time with the customer to gain mutual understanding.
does this mean that you don't believe a customer is ever wrong in their assumptions or orders Rick?

Is "the customer is always right" a literal statement for you Rick? It sounds more a slogan that refers to your attitude only (meaning, the customer is not always right, but rather, you'll work with them until they are right if they enter into the relationship with some false preconceptions.... more like "the client will always be right with me on their side" even if at any immediate moment in time they may be wrong about some details...)

I see 20:3. And as more start to think seriously about the pompous know-all outlook of someone who things the person paying them is invariably wrong I expect the ratio will change.
Trying to cast the other guy as a "pompous know-all" for believing that he may as the professional be correct some of the time and the client may not be 100% right on every order or preconception seems to be an attempt to disparage the other guy's reputation.

[Willallison]

There's nothing watered down here Rick... you will note both in the quotation in post number one here, and from the original post ( #188 http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/economical-coastal-cruiser-31439-13.html ) that there is a smiley face at the end of the comment. Clearly intended as a light-hearted remark
Post #6 in this thread I state exactly the same thing...

I'm not in the slightest concerned about my rep in this matter. I am not even concerned about your propensity to sprout off about about things that you clearly have no real understanding of. What concerns me is that there are people who will read your posts and believe what you are telling them. At best you are likely to cost them a great deal of money, at worst a great deal more than that.

I think this poll - and the one about compromise - are a clear indication that your views are not widely accepted. By the abusive tone of your reply, it is clear that this has upset you. For that I apologise - I have nothing to gain from making you look like a fool, nor do I get any great pleasure from doing so.

[Guest625101138]

Your stance sounds good and is well written, and apologies if I don't get what you say, but it sounds a bit of a word game too.

When you say:

does this mean that you don't believe a customer is ever wrong in their assumptions or orders Rick?

Is "the customer is always right" a literal statement for you Rick? It sounds more a slogan that refers to your attitude only (meaning, the customer is not always right, but rather, you'll work with them until they are right if they enter into the relationship with some false preconceptions.... more like "the client will always be right with me on their side" even if at any immediate moment in time they may be wrong about some details...)


Trying to cast the other guy as a "pompous know-all" for believing that he may as the professional be correct some of the time and the client may not be 100% right on every order or preconception seems to be an attempt to disparage the other guy's reputation.

This debate gets to the heart of quality. The vital concept of quality is that you target zero defects or non-conformances. No one can guarantee that will ever occur but if you plan on having defects then you will get more than if you aim to have none. It is a mindset.

I worked for a long time in the Australian mining industry and we could quantify the number of deaths per tonne produced and we targetted a downward trend each year. I can remember having a discussion with a site manager where I pointed out to him that his injury target corresponded to causing serious injury, maiming or even killing 12 people a month. When you see the stark reality of the target like this you realise how untenable the target is. Clearly the only tenable target is zero.

Back to designing, if you take the view that you will continually strive to prove the client to be correct by meeting or exceeding his requirements then it is going to happen more often than if you take the view that he is usually wrong and you take delight in proving it so. It is not a productive outlook and inevitably you will be proven right - he will be wrong thereby reinforcing your view. It becomes self-fulfilling.

If you have a team relationship with the customer then it is the team that got it wrong not just the customer or engineer. I see this alliance approach being adopted widely in major projects in Australia. It is collaborative and removes a whole lot of legal and administrative waffle that costs a bundle. Even the reward mechanisms are set up to benefit or penalise the team - wins and losses are both shared usually on the basis of a target cost and completion date.

As far as the "pompous know-all" it is the opinion of another member sent to me in a PM.

Rick W

[Willallison]

.... And as more start to think seriously about the pompous know-all outlook of someone who things the person paying them is invariably wrong I expect the ratio will change.



Invariably...did I say that?

oh.... and we all get PM's Rick.... I shan't share the language used to describe you...

[Typhoon]

The customer may always be right, but paying someone money doesn't mean you can treat them like a lesser being.
Many customers/clients get the response they expect to get when they go into a meeting.....condition/prepare yourself for an argument and you'll usually find one. Psychology is interesting like that.

Regards, Andrew.

[Wynand N]

It is a sad reflection on any professional who takes the view that the customer is usually wrong. Inevitably personal beliefs get reinforced through subtle actions and behaviors.

If the customer is wrong then it is the the professional who is at fault for taking a combative stance and not spending sufficient time with the customer to gain mutual understanding.

Rick

I followed this tread with interest and the above reply from you is unbelievable and very very sad.
Sorry to be blunt, but you sound like a politician :confused:

How can a professional be at fault when a client is hell bend on having his wishes done, regardless?
Remember the saying - you can lead a horse to the water but cannot make it drink. This is also true to humans, you can show someone the way, give advice etc but at the end he or she can choose to to conform to your views or not and more so, if he had his mind already made up, no professional will change his views. Can the professional be at fault when the client is wrong...?

Im retired from steel boat building now but still run a small GRP boat shop/ repair setup and all my work is by word of mouth and sometimes I cannot get to all the work done. I never advertise. Having said this, I must make it clear that when a client comes to me, he does so for a reason - he needs my advice and experience to have repairs/modification/design done and I will gladly assist him and make another friend (many of my customers became my best friends).
I will listen to a customer of what he wants but when a client tells you what to do and how to when you know best, it become problematic. I turned away some potentially lucrative jobs to get rid of just such a customer. Rather be without some kudos and gold than to have endless problems with a client and stress that can work up a heart attack.

Most of my new customers will name someone whom send them my way and was told that I can be trusted and things will be done right. To me that is a compliment and I am well known as a grumpy man that stick to my guns.

Lastly, the 23 - 3 poll vote (now) speaks volumes. Why would so many be wrong and so few be right. We do live in a democratic society and let go with the flow....;)

[Guest625101138]

I followed this tread with interest and the above reply from you is unbelievable and very very sad.
Sorry to be blunt, but you sound like a politician :confused:

How can a professional be at fault when a client is hell bend on having his wishes done, regardless?
Remember the saying - you can lead a horse to the water but cannot make it drink. This is also true to humans, you can show someone the way, give advice etc but at the end he or she can choose to to conform to your views or not and more so, if he had his mind already made up, no professional will change his views. Can the professional be at fault when the client is wrong...?

Im retired from steel boat building now but still run a small GRP boat shop/ repair setup and all my work is by word of mouth and sometimes I cannot get to all the work done. I never advertise. Having said this, I must make it clear that when a client comes to me, he does so for a reason - he needs my advice and experience to have repairs/modification/design done and I will gladly assist him and make another friend (many of my customers became my best friends).
I will listen to a customer of what he wants but when a client tells you what to do and how to when you know best, it become problematic. I turned away some potentially lucrative jobs to get rid of just such a customer. Rather be without some kudos and gold than to have endless problems with a client and stress that can work up a heart attack.

Most of my new customers will name someone whom send them my way and was told that I can be trusted and things will be done right. To me that is a compliment and I am well known as a grumpy man that stick to my guns.

Lastly, the 23 - 3 poll vote (now) speaks volumes. Why would so many be wrong and so few be right. We do live in a democratic society and let go with the flow....;)

You are making an assessment of whether you can work collaboratively with particular customers and choose not to work with those you clearly cannot. So by this selection process you are improving the probability of a successful outcome for you and the customer. That is exactly what I am saying. You aim to prove the customer right by choosing those you can work with. He has made a good choice in selecting you and you have made a good choice in taking on the work. There is mutual respect. You did not enter the relationship if you had doubts about the customer. That is just being prudent.

As far as the vote goes I could frame the question to get the exact opposite result.

Rick W

[daiquiri]

I am honestly undecided on this one because, as a matter of fact, I do realize that the client is not always right when it comes to the technical side of the project - most of the times because he has been ill-informed or guided by prejudices towards solutions he doesn't know much about.
But I need to deliver what he hires me to deliver, if I want to take those bucks home. And that's what I do, at the end of the day. So his ideas/desires etc. might not be right from my point of view, but sometimes I have to act as if they were. I would be a hypocrite if I said that I refuse clients whose ideas I don't like from the technical point of view. I don't do it. But fortunately, most of them come to me with just some vague ideas about what they want, the details are usually a matter of synergy between my knowledge and his/her desires and budget.

I see this issue very much related to this one: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/dare-say-no-30261.html
Back there we have all had a similar discussion, where there were two parties arguing: those who maintained that a client commands - even when he wants to have a fast, fuel-guzzling powerboat, and those who were saying that it is a designer who needs to educate the client towards a more environmentaly-friendly boating.
I believe that the truth must be somewhere between these two points of view, just as it is in this case.

[Paul B]

This thread will be a useful reference for anyone intending to engage a professional.

Paul B, Landlubber, and TollyWally are currently on the top of the list.

Rick W

I am not a professional. I do not work in the business.

I occasionally give advice to people who ask me about something I have some expertise in.

When I am approached regarding real yacht design work I steer the potential client to working professionals I know and trust. Therer are too many good offices straining to make a go of it these days to have someone with less abilities (me) taking business away as a part-time endeavor.

[Chris Ostlind]

... where there were two parties arguing: those who maintained that a client commands - even when he wants to have a fast, fuel-guzzling powerboat, and those who were saying that it is a designer who needs to educate the client towards a more environmentaly-friendly boating.

I believe that the truth must be somewhere between these two points of view, just as it is in this case.




Pragmatically expressed.

I can't help but wonder how this differs from the dilemma faced by a romantically disconnected concubine who stares out the window, wistfully dreaming of another life.

[rasorinc]

After building over 350 custom homs (no 2 alike ) in a forty year career a customer is right in what they want. You learn how to propose your ideas in the planning stages incorperating theirs. You can easily point out better ideas
if you have them and use tack. I had to eat and sleep with these people for 3 to 5 months during the whole design and building process. Never had a formal complaint so I guess I handled it properly. I have built a few boats for others (not BIG ones-30' max ) and did it the same way W/O problems. They appreciate getting good advise especially if it saves them money.

[Chris Ostlind]

From a different industry altogether, but still an interesting parallel to this discussion...

Tuesday, March 16th, beverage giant PepsiCo, announced that it would be removing sugary drinks from schools in more than 200 countries worldwide by 2012. This markes the first such move by a major soft drink producer.

Everybody knows how much kids are driven by sugary soda drinks. For a major player in the beverage market to willingly abandon a major market in an effort to help reduce child obesity is absolutely remarkable.

Just curious, but what do the folks who say that the client's desires drive all decisions, have to say now? It's very clear that the reverse of that paradigm can be a business model, especially if the end result is of wide benefit to the overall status of those involved.

[Mat-C]

As a client, rather than a designer, who has an interest in design, I'd be pretty pissed if I took my ideas to a pro and all he did was nod his head, telling me how clever I am. It is the professional duty of any designer to point out the 'home-truths' and guide the client towards a satisfactory conclusion.

[Landlubber]

...is the client always right....methinks that this simple question is not really just that at all..it is a complex answer, and some here are very determined to say "NO" where maybe the answer is "no, not necessarily"...but the question put has a YES or NO alternative only...once you have said your piece it then becomes a matter of qualifying why you said what you did, I am sure that we can all argue quite effectively for either side if we so wished.

But again, I do see it a sad indicement that so many are so determined by the NO answer...of course we go to "experts" when we need help ....or was it because the legislation says that we have to have it signed off by a NA??????????........(please do not see this as saying I have no respect for NA's...quite the opposite...I am putting this up as a arguement not as a fact of opinion).

[Oyster]

Chemisty and experience will determine if the client is right and if the client has substantive imput worth listening to past the determined criteria of boat design, an area that should be etched in stone by a pedigreed professional .

[baeckmo]

Please reread the question: "....is the client ALWAYS right?" Any bells ringing huh?? What is this discussion about really? As a professional, it is my obligation to give adequate, professional advice, to the best of my knowledge to my client, even if that means telling him/her that he/she is wrong. That is what they pay me for. There are other trades, where pro's get paid for licking asses, don't mix things up........

[Oyster]

Please reread the question: "....is the client ALWAYS right?" Any bells ringing huh?? What is this discussion about really?

The title asks if the client always right. Being right or having substantive imput is two different things. Its up to the builder or designer to determine if the imput meets the criteria for the propose project.

[rwatson]

Nice to get some balanced input happening here. I have been Client and Consultant in various roles, and being combative in either just means poor communication.

I have dealt with NA's who cant 'get' a concept because it isnt 'right' for them, and others who have taken a while to understand, but then have produced results far and away better than the original request.

This business is all about teamwork, and if either party is so arrogant that only they are right, the project will fail.

[Willallison]

Absolutely agree RW
I think the important distcinction here is that as a professional you have a duty to explain to your client if what they are proposing is impractical, dangerous, or whatever. To simply act as yes-man is doing nobody an favours, just as ignoring the opinions or desires of your client is falling well short of your responsibilities.

[Guest625101138]

Absolutely agree RW
I think the important distcinction here is that as a professional you have a duty to explain to your client if what they are proposing is impractical, dangerous, or whatever. To simply act as yes-man is doing nobody an favours, just as ignoring the opinions or desires of your client is falling well short of your responsibilities.

This is a long way removed from your original proposition that all things in yacht design is a compromise and the client is usually wrong. I can see the pendulum swinging to align with my views.

Teamwork, collaboration, mutual education, mutual respect aim to optimise within the set requirements to exceed the customers expectations.

Rick W

[Oyster]

This is a long way removed from your original proposition that all things in yacht design is a compromise and the client is usually wrong. I can see the pendulum swinging to align with my views.

Rick W
Thats BS. Listening to imput is a long ways from doing it the way the client says to do it.

[Guest625101138]

Thats BS. Listening to imput is a long ways from doing it the way the client says to do it.

Why would anyone hire a professional designer and then tell him how to design. The client has a set of requirements that the professional should aim to meet without compromise. If there are conflicting requirements then the designer should inform the client on the conflict and recommend various options for the best solution - a process of optimisation.

Rick W

[Chris Ostlind]

Ahhhh, crap. Just when it looked like the thing had come to rest.

Rick, this is a vast world of sorta, kinda, maybe... while fancifully colored concepts dance in an ever-changing sea of grey. The incredibly complex world of boat design is but one part of that moving sea. One simply can not hope to always apply static answers for hugely dynamic issues. Yes, there are moments when the static comes into play and thank goodness for that. But, it's all about flowing with the thing and the shifting target of what might be optimal.

Relax a bit, have a cigar and see if it doesn't come to you. I have a feeling that it's there.

[SheetWise]

It all depends upon how you approach the issue.

Diplomacy is the art of letting other people have your way.

[Guest625101138]

Ahhhh, crap. Just when it looked like the thing had come to rest.

Rick, this is a vast world of sorta, kinda, maybe... while fancifully colored concepts dance in an ever-changing sea of grey. The incredibly complex world of boat design is but one part of that moving sea. One simply can not hope to always apply static answers for hugely dynamic issues. Yes, there are moments when the static comes into play and thank goodness for that. But, it's all about flowing with the thing and the shifting target of what might be optimal.

Relax a bit, have a cigar and see if it doesn't come to you. I have a feeling that it's there.

Chris
I gave some insight to my outlook above. I think it is important in all aspects of life to be demanding.

Being Australian I was nurtured in an environment where "she'll be right mate" was common wisdom. It is a reasonable way to approach life because it is low stress.

When I got into professional employment I had a few incidents that highlighted how costly that attitude could be. An attitude of "she'll be right" was not going to get me very far. When you experience someone under your responsibility scarred for life because of lack of care it also highlights a moral responsibility.

As my career progressed I started to see how companies with a good understanding of how to achieve quality - meeting or exceeding customer's requirements - were beating others. The starkest contrast for me personally was the way Japanese electrical equipment was trouncing the stuff supplied from the UK - Australia used to get a very large amount of gear from the UK. In more common areas Austin and Morris motor cars were being replaced by Honda and Toyota.

The reason Japan made such rapid progress can be traced to Demming, an American, who introduced key quality concepts to Japanese industry in the 50s. To me the key is "zero defects". While knowing is not possible it goes to a state of mind. The expectation of anything less is compromise or the old Australian attitude of "she'll be right mate".

So the notion of the customer always being right goes to state of mind. There is no point in proving them wrong. This was the attitude of the British car industry - where is that industry toady.

You are one person who is very aware that customers will spend their money elsewhere if they are not satisfied. Having to tell them they are wrong is not going to get more business. British Leyland could not convince motorists that cars were bound to break down when they could buy a Japanese car that didn't.

If I am hiring a professional it will be the one who sets out to optimise within my requirements. Not the one who takes the view that everything he does is a compromise and his opinion of his customers is that they are mostly wrong. He is going to put a lot of effort into telling me why things cant work rather than working out how they can.

The notion of the "customer is always right" is a state of mind. It should be the objective of everyone who serves - all of us basically. When we forget it we are going to be less than we could. On principal you may choose not to serve someone but if you take the first step then be fully committed.

Rick W

[Willallison]

This is a long way removed from your original proposition that all things in yacht design is a compromise and the client is usually wrong. I can see the pendulum swinging to align with my views.

Rick W

Ahh... no and...no. My position has been consistent.

Having to tell them they are wrong is not going to get more business

Lying to them and telling them that they are right is going to get you less.

So the notion of the customer always being right goes to state of mind.

At last... something on which we can agree!:D

[Guest625101138]

Finally got you to understand why the customer is always right - it has only taken a week.

Rick W

[Willallison]

I wonder if Jeff could add a smilie to the menu that shows a bloke shaking his head in utter amazement....

[Landlubber]

....now all we need is to kiss and make up....

[Landlubber]

...My side of the arguement goes along with Rick in that quality can only be achieved by accepting that the product we produce must try to be made as best as we are able to make it, we all know that perfection is not going to happen, but that does not mean any less is OK.

Quote:
So the notion of the customer always being right goes to state of mind.

At last... something on which we can agree!

...I think we have sorted this out as best we can, arse licking is not appropriate, nor is thumping the table to prove we are right...the Yin and Yang of life determines that we should have a balanced life, both physical and mental, the approach to customer satisfaction should also be along these lines for a harmonious result....amen.

[Willallison]

Sorry to throw cold water on this happy parade, but I was actually casting aspersions on Rick's state of mind...;)

...quality can only be achieved by accepting that the product we produce must try to be made as best as we are able to make it, we all know that perfection is not going to happen

I doubt there's anyone here who would disagree with that... well, perhaps with the exception one
I presume therefore that you will be changing your vote to a no?

[Brian@BNE]

Well, with a day of the poll still to go isn't it too early to say 'amen'?

I was surprised by poll count but note that by now the 'replies' are over 50. So a lot who have taken the trouble to post are choosing not to vote, and not take a simple literal view of a question usually tied to 'customer service' and guiding principle/attitudes. Extending that, there is an even greater number of 'views'. But its all so easy to vote - could there also be a message there? So put 4 sectors on the final pie chart? Er, no don't take me literally and post that.

I have been on both sides during my professional career with large organisations. Teams always give best results, and high performing teams require members to fill various 'standard' roles. Some of the team leader's most important jobs are to determine who 'naturally' takes on which role, ensure adequate air-time for each role at critical points and to ensure 'gaps' in team structure are filled (usually via a quite word one-on-one to someone asking them to do it). The smaller the team, the greater the need for rapport to get a result to be proud of. If it reduces to a team of two (client-professional) then each person will effectively have to take on more than one role at various times even if they don't explicitly 'change hats'. Even swapping roles for some sub-sets, Personalities will influence who does what. Yes-men effectively aren't on the team. Rarely, the gaps are so wide that walking aways is best.

I was relieved that taking the thread as a whole, most of these sentiments emerged. I might be willing to be a client after all! I still am a consultant/professional advisor in another industry.

[Landlubber]

Amen was the end of my "lecture" and of my comments, enough has been said to understand our opinions...

[Willallison]

So a lot who have taken the trouble to post are choosing not to vote

I thought that was an interesting observation, so I went back and counted the number of actual participants - 21, so actually a few have voted but not posted.

I have to agree with landlubber too... enough said...

[Pierre R]

Somehow Rick I don't think you got the real message underlying Dr. Demming's work. I got to know Dr. Demming personally in the early 80's right here in the good ol rust belt of American automotive production. At that time I was QC manager for a large automotive manufacturing operation. I am a true believer in Dr. Demmings work and statistical process controls.

Dr Demming stressed fixing variables and noting the effects throughout the system. This allowed an assessment of controllable variables and variables that could be assumed to be fixed and variables that could be eliminated.

You don't seem to make the jump from manufacturing widgets to one off boat design to well. The variables known to be important to yacht design have been known for years through trial, error, death and mayhem. The sea is still a place of huge forces and wild variations that are not controlled in any computer program.

There is a limited amount of time that any client can afford to have a NA spend on his design. Billable hours are limited so a good NA optimizes the time tested variables while setting and assuming others that have proved of lesser value. Once the time tested variables are delt with a good NA starts to incorporate as many of the other things a customer may want in the way of lesser variables. The whole process is driven by customer compromisation. You see its not the NA who compromises, its the customer who makes the decisions on compromises and that is why the customer throughout the process is not always right. That is why you hear the words “On my next boat I am going to do things different”. Guess that says it all.

In the end the whole very complicated project must be built by boat builders who have never heard of Dr Demming, come in on budget and perform as closely to what the client asked for as possible.

[ancient kayaker]

The client who is always right deserves what he gets :D

[daiquiri]

The client who is always right deserves what he gets :D
Nice one :D

[Guest625101138]

Somehow Rick I don't think you got the real message underlying Dr. Demming's work. I got to know Dr. Demming personally in the early 80's right here in the good ol rust belt of American automotive production. At that time I was QC manager for a large automotive manufacturing operation. I am a true believer in Dr. Demmings work and statistical process controls.

Dr Demming stressed fixing variables and noting the effects throughout the system. This allowed an assessment of controllable variables and variables that could be assumed to be fixed and variables that could be eliminated.

You don't seem to make the jump from manufacturing widgets to one off boat design to well. The variables known to be important to yacht design have been known for years through trial, error, death and mayhem. The sea is still a place of huge forces and wild variations that are not controlled in any computer program.

There is a limited amount of time that any client can afford to have a NA spend on his design. Billable hours are limited so a good NA optimizes the time tested variables while setting and assuming others that have proved of lesser value. Once the time tested variables are delt with a good NA starts to incorporate as many of the other things a customer may want in the way of lesser variables. The whole process is driven by customer compromisation. You see its not the NA who compromises, its the customer who makes the decisions on compromises and that is why the customer throughout the process is not always right. That is why you hear the words “On my next boat I am going to do things different”. Guess that says it all.

In the end the whole very complicated project must be built by boat builders who have never heard of Dr Demming, come in on budget and perform as closely to what the client asked for as possible.

I look at engineering risk. I assess ability of engineering structures and plant, including marine structures to survive in their environment. All these things can be assessed and measured to some probability. That is why regulations exists. I work beyond the regulations. I need to make reasonable estimates on the probability of certain things happening. Complying with regulations is not sufficient for my work.

Back to boats - I would not engage an NA or builder who did not have a good appreciation of quality management systems and quality control. That goes to outlook as well.

I had to make the jump from manufacturing widgets to applying it to the mining industry and dealing with what God provided. It starts with a completely unspecified world. But there are many quality parameters that can be controlled. This is why I am happy to carry on the discussion here because I have been through all these arguments before. As a mining representative I worked with regulators in one jurisdiction to become more demanding. I find the majority of the attitudes expressed here are the same as I encountered 20 to 30 years ago in the Australian mining industry. The current performance of the industry reflects the commitment to quality.

There is always room for improvement. So any design will have room to improve based on experienced gained with it.

Rick W

[Willallison]

There is always room for improvement. So any design will have room to improve based on experienced gained with it.


...any boat except one designed by you surely... for yours is "the best of the best"... no compromise


As for Japanese imports, I'm no historian, but have a feeling their adoption had more to do with cost than culture. If that were not the case, then we would all still be buying Japanese rather than the (now cheaper) chinese stuff that floods our markets

[Guest625101138]

...any boat except one designed by you surely... for yours is "the best of the best"... no compromise


As for Japanese imports, I'm no historian, but have a feeling their adoption had more to do with cost than culture. If that were not the case, then we would all still be buying Japanese rather than the (now cheaper) chinese stuff that floods our markets

If you go back to the economic coastal cruiser thread you will see that Erik is now contemplating a Chinese made diesel. He has to decide if it will meet the same standards as those from elsewhere. This gets down to quality.

What I can advise him is that the Chinese have the lowest conversion costs. Many of the business there have learnt the lesson on quality and how it is important for return business. He needs to determine if that it the case with the particular engine manufacturer.

The Japanese motor car industry continues to survive. The UK does not other than those owned offshore. The Japanese quality systems are now widely adopted throughout the mining industry in Australia. (Look up "Lean Manufacturing") The Japanese built systems around Demming's concepts and have spread them across the globe - although not to the majority of vocal participants on this forum.

Rick W

[xy2010]

No customer no job,no job no life

[Alik]

OK, let's talk about customers: some of private customers should be asked for mental health certificate before comissioning a design/build.

So, who say customer is always right??? :D

[Guest625101138]

OK, let's talk about customers: some of private customers should be asked for mental health certificate before comissioning a design/build.

So, who say customer is always right??? :D

He is not your client until you are engaged to do the work. Prudent people will do the checks to make certain they can work with the client - also they have the backing to pay. It is not a one-way arrangement. You have to make an offer. If you do not like the client don't make the offer - your choice in the first instance. If you enter into an arrangement on a half-hearted basis then you are doing a disservice to yourself and the client.

Rick W

[FAST FRED]

"We do live in a democratic society and let go with the flow...."

A democracy is 5 wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.

FF

[daiquiri]

A democracy is 5 wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.
So true.

[dskira]

16.67% yes
83.33% No
Obviously the poll tend to see that the client is not the ultimate authority.
Depend the client I suppose.
Let start from the beginning:
Is it possible for a shipyard or designer to survive without a client? No.
Obviously the client has to be respected.
Not like British Airway which was saying: "The customer is a necessary nuisance"
Somebody took British Airway lately? Pretty bad, they are keeping their motto to the dot!
Our client is a man or a woman who is ready to spend from several thousand dollars to several millions dollar. That is not a plane ticket. that is serius money.
My way to see it is the following:
If the client is impossible in his demand, and stick with it, I dump him or her.
If he or she come with some good point, but I disagree with them, I challenge myself and go ahead.
I learn a lot from the client.
"From my ivory tower, the guardian of all the knowledge" some client teach me a lot, from going down from my tower, to the fact that knowledge is nothing if you can't accommodate some differences which will challenge what you know.
I realize very early that my word was the binding contract, and be in time and in budget was more important than all the gimmick I can put on a design.
Not respecting this simple rules, it hurt the client, and it hurt the only real "marketing" I can have. My word.
I am not better that other NA or boatbuilder, I have a style, the client come to me because of that. If they come to me for a trimaran, or a modern sailing boat or high speed motor boat. I send them to an other more qualified NA in these field.
I respect the client, and for me, yes the client is king, as painful he can be.
He allow me to be free, to be independent, as strange as it sound.
I had two female client, for large boats, it was interesting and they are far more thorough and grounded than a lot of male counterpart.
It is too easy to blast the client, when things goes wrong. It's like blaming the weather when you sail in a rough weather.
And yes from my experience 99% of the client respect the payement schedule discussed at the start of the work, and no I never had a paper contract in my life, beside the one when working on governement contract.

My two cents
Daniel

[Landlubber]

....welll your two cents worth is actually worth , well at least more than two...Thanks.

[SeaJay]

The customer may not always be right, but he's never wrong.

[apex1]

The client who is always right deserves what he gets :D

Well said!


And to add that:

there is NO perfect boat out there! Not a single one, no matter for which purpose it was designed.

ALL of the clients which purchased these millions of boats, expected / assumed / hoped to get a perfect boat, they were all wrong.

All of the designers and builders were, and are, wrong, if they believe they could produce a perfect boat.

So, how can one of us assume the client is always right? Not even we are!!!

Regards
Richard

[ancient kayaker]

... there is NO perfect boat out there! Not a single one, no matter for which purpose it was designed.
...

That is a key point, and very few boats have a single purpose.

There is always a degree of compromise. Typically a buyer will want some comfort, performance in a range of conditions, a modicom of safety and a measure of durability.

Maybe the design of a one-way, single-use sailboat aimed at breaking the absolute speed record is the only truly specialised sailboat. Thinking of sailrocket's efforts, it is difficult to consider a boat that seems to break up during every serious run as perfect.

[apex1]

That is a key point, and very few boats have a single purpose.



Terry,

(but mainly meant as a general statement)

there is no boat out there which can fulfill the promise of the designer!

You know that, I know that. WEknow that.....

At present I am sailing a tiny massproduction boat through the Agean Sea, a 50ft Bavaria.
This boat is the best selling charter boat in the entire world.
The yard is known to be the best efficient mass producer in the entire world.
They bake it like bread.
They sell it like bread.

The boat is ****.........

I am doing this test now for 8 consecutive weeks to know what the average (sailing) boat is like.
On many occasions I have seen boats of twice the price, sometimes 4 times the price, built to lesser quality.

ALLLLLL of the clients buying these boats thought they have bought a good boat.

To some extend they were right. These crappy junks are sufficient to fit their needs.

NONE of these boats are seaworthy !!!!!

I have not found a single one mass production boat (except those ugly Amel cruisers) which was capable to sail a single mile without getting into trouble when there would be a severe condition.
All of them are "sufficient" to have a nice day trip from one bay to the next. None of them (included the forementioned Amel), is worth talking a single word when it comes to serious passagemaking. Most are not even worth talking as a liveaboard while moored.


ALL OF THEM WERE SOLD ACCORDING TO BUYERS DEMAND AND SPECIFICTIONS


ALL of them fit the clients purpose

(having some fun from secluded bay to bay)


The buyer is right?

The average (knowledgable) buyer is just a idiot, knowing nothing about going to sea, knowing nothing about hard sailing. Capable of doing the planned trip even in bad conditions, yes, there are some, count them on the fingers of your hands.

There are the pro´s........

they manage a ocean passage in a few days. But they accept to **** in a bowl which never will handle toilet paper! Accepted standard on ALL boats worldwide.

There are proven, and reliable systems out there, do´nt they buy them?
No, they accept a "sufficient" yacht standard.

Ask them about the quality of their own boat.

80% will tell you that they are on the best boat they can afford.
We know, none of them sits on a good boat at that time.

I make this test (during the bad period of the year) to get the right answer to the question >why are´nt you doing sailing boats?<

I could have sold a couple of boats, just during these few days sailing and argueing, but refused.

The boat I am sitting on is about 200.000 € ex yard. A boat, I would call good would be about eight to ten times that. And then the customer would have purchased only my phantasy of a good boat.

No,

the customer is always right to start the design spiral, then to lay back and relax.
Do never try to design or build him a perfect boat, you must fail.

Build the best he can afford, build it according to your knowledge and his abilities, and be fine with the 143 compromises you have to agree on. (daily)
Promise him, that you will not make these bloody 43 faults again, and assure him, you will make other 43 on the next building, completely different.

Do not even think about doing a yacht without some 43 faults.


So,

the customer is right?
eat more ****!!! 25 billions of flies cannot be wrong...............

Regards
Richard

[ancient kayaker]

Richard: sounds like the automobile business, except that is much better regulated ...

[TeddyDiver]

Richard: sounds like the automobile business, except that is much better regulated ...
Yeah! In automobile industry they do the same 43 faults again and again.. so it's kind of regulated :P