Boat building in progress

[evantica]

Hi there. My name is Hakan Newly registered at "Boatdesign.net". I started my project a couple of yeras ago, it laid still for awhile and now I'm on to it more motivated than ever! This gonna be a "around-the-world" sailor... Gonna keep you updated if interested, would appriciate thoughts, and tips and so on...Maybe I can attach some pic's..hm...

[souljour2000]

interesting boat...is that pilot house also made of steel plates?..It is hard to tell..that is quite the pilot house...As long as you have enough ballast down low I think you will do okay...should bounce right back up in a knockdown as long as evrything is fairly watertight...what kind of engines...can you tell us more about your project? and good luck!

[evantica]

Souljour 2000... Thanks for answer. The pilot house you see on the "lowerleft photo" is the original boat, wich I have used as a "Model". So myboat is going to be a "kind of" C.Archer cutter and NOT with that pilothousing at all. The original boat was built in oak,1902 at RÅÅ in Helsingborg as a "Lots cutter" called "Lill-lots". Today-before I posted any treads here. I have lifted off the steel shell from the wooden one. I will post pics so you'll see for your self. I am pleased with the result...

[evantica]

Here's a fresh pic' from today.

[souljour2000]

wow!...a beautiful shell of welded steel plates...waiting for the rest to fill her in...nice shaped boat...you can do whatever you want to her practically...I don't know much formal boatbuilding but whatever steel truss and stringers and scantlings you make ...use good steel and I would try to get them powder coated I guess...then she oughta last thru the apocalypse and onward thru time......do as much research as you can...should be a lot of folks in here with way more experience with steel than I have...(not saying alot really)...keep us informed...

[Itchy&Scratchy]

Very nice evantica
Good idea to use the original boat as a 'pattern'

What rigging do you intend for her?

[evantica]

Most of all I would like a Gaff rigg, but think it's a bit to messy to deal with, also if short handed. so a traditional Bermudan is most likely.
I would like to hear from "you" about some protection on the steelhull, paint or what? But I also have a lot to weld so... Purhapse it's better to wait?
someone have some knowledge on this subject???

[evantica]

and thanks for the comments friends! Appriciate it!

[evantica]

"Mother & son":p Look at all the snow:mad: Hard to do anything

[evantica]

"Some light in the dark" :D the only positive thing is that the hull is Watertight :p When all the snow melted, it filled her up with water...
"Not much, but something"

[KajWestergard]

Hi evantica,
What a fascinating way to build a steelboat :-)

As to the painting, You should sandblast after You have done all the welding,
then on with several coats of epoxy paint.
After the epoxy You have several options, but You don´t need to know them for a couple of years :-)

If You are on a tight budget and/or sailing alone maybe You should look up the Junk rig.

Are You going to have an engine in the boat ?

[evantica]

Hi Kaj! and thanks for comment. The reason for building this way: I have a Långedragmarin drawing, I actually had a complete hull (bare hull of 40 foot ) But realized I would never afford to put her together. Their hull is built up side down over a "jig". So I have this great Lots cutter, a wooden one. so I did the same, started to "klä" and after a year or so it was finished. A nice hull (if I may say so)... About the Junkrigg..hm not impossible have to learn mor eabout it (I've read about Hassler and the Jester and so = many junkriggs Is it easy to handle then??? About the engine... Maybe, maybe not haven't desided yet. Don't see it as a must. As you may have found out I like those ol' time sea faerer! DO you have a boat if so what kind?

[KajWestergard]

To answer Your last question first;
-No, I don´t have a boat for now, I´m building a three-room floating apartment that I intend to take down to the European canals.

Everybody on this site is "good", I think/suppose they answer with their own honest opinion and I agree with those who think it´is silly
to build a boat without proper plans.
You are bound to waste material and time.
I should know, I´m building a 18 meters x 4,5 meters floating box without plans. :-)

There is an article in an old "Praktiskt Båtägande" (=Practical Boatbuilding in swedish) about a guy who built a steelboat with junk rig, if I remember correctly he said his rig cost 150,000 swedish , compared to around 500,000:- for a Bermudan rig for the same boat. (this was a big boat with two masts)

A junk rig is very easily handled by one person.
The disadvantages with junk rig are the look (for some) the quantity of "spaghetti" on deck and (as some say) the upwind characteristics (they do not go upwind like a bermudan if You don´t design the rig for upwind work
but if You do that You loose some of the simplicity of the design.

Most "accomplished" sailors can´t stand the rig
(maybe that´s one good reason to build one :-) )
"Arne" in Norway (=the Yahoo junk rig group)
knows everything there is to know about junk rig.
The two common books are Hasler and McLeod "Practical Junk rig"
and the lesser known "The Chinese Sailing Rig" by Derek van Loan

[evantica]

oki doki and thanks. good luck with your f"loating home"

[evantica]

Today I got her/he/ the hull/ home at my place, gonna be easier to continue building from now on. Besides that a BEAUTIFUL DAY today:p
Still think it's a nice shaped hull:D

[KajWestergard]

When do we get to see the inside of the boat ?
I´m very curious.

[Arvy]

Hi Hakan,

Very interesting way to build a boat indeed, if I were you I would certainly read up on the scantling rules to determine what size of frames etc you do need. Myself I prefer the German Lloyds as they are quite easily to understand and available for free as well.

One point of criticism tho, I see that some of the buttocks in your hullplating (between the 1st and 2nd chine for example, start counting at the sheer) are at the same vertical position. This causes this place to be a weaker spot in your hull, so you might want to take some extra care in the frames and longitudinals at that location. Luckily there are only 2 plates at that location with the buttock in line (this is causing a spot with 4 welds coming together into 1 place) so you might still be safe.

Best practice is to have at least 1 frame distance (with a frame between them) between 2 buttocks, just like you would build a brick house. Which is much stronger than this.

About the painting please don't use powdercoating like someone suggested

What size is this boat, and what is the thickness of the hullplating you used?

Keep the pictures coming.

[KajWestergard]

Hi Arvy,
that was a good observation, I´m a ashamed that I didn´t notice.
I was more concerned with the absense of a propeller aperture in the keel,
which for me suggests that Hakan is going to carve out the aperture from the rudder and that´s no good way (as we all know :)

I must confess that i sent him a private message in swedish about the matter
and that I at the same time suggested to him to get a copy of "The elements of boatdesign" by Dave Gerr to get his framing dimensions right.

So now it´s not private anymore, now You all know :D

[evantica]

Hi there fellow seamen...
Kaj: Yes the engine is a bit of a headache, and have no priority right now! yes It should be on priority list but...If I find an engine cheap and good enough I'll buy it, I'll rather spend my hard earn money on completing the hull and enterier and on the boatdesigner, who will arrive as soon it get any warmer!

Arvy: Thanks for mention the "plating positioning weakness" and constructiv info, appriciate this! The size of boat is approx: 8,5 m x 3,2 m, draft 1,60 m
about the weight I don't know yet, this have to be calculated! Hull plating is 4mm and 5/6 mm on the keel + a massiv piece of iron along the lower keel section! (will check in on the German Lloyd)
Also of interest?! I have an ide' of using-if possible-the orig. frames from the lotsboat. These are quite huge and strong and in Oak, what do you think? I can then weld some "taps" and connect them to the hull/frame. This is just a "thought" I have so... like to hear what you say on this... also a pic from the inside when I turned her ower= nothing done! "Rear end of boat"

[Arvy]

@kaj, I share your concerns :) but my eye fell on the seams right away, so had to tell him that right away. Btw I have read dave gerr's book, but would recommend using the book only to get an idea of how things work, but use more flexible (as in more flexible in positioning of frames and longitudinals) rules like german lloyds.

@hakan, hull plating thickness is good, I would probably have used the same with the extra thickness on the keel (extra weight at a low point) even tho most rules will tell you that 4 for the keel would be enough.

I don't really think that using the old oak frames is a good plan, for more than 1 reason (some of them are gut feelings however).
first one: The old boat had the hull on the frames, now you have to remove the old wooden hull from the frames. but the steel hull has an offset to the old frames of the thickness off the old hull. This will leave you with a gap you will have to fill up somehow.
second one: this is more a gut feeling, but steel and wood behave differently under load and with different temperatures, I have no idea how this would work out and what it would do the the shape of the hull.
third one: an important part of the hulls stiffness (which is really important) comes from the rigid connection between the frames, longitudinals (or chines) and the hullplating and the deck. With the extra space between the hull plating and the wooden frames, it will be difficult to make this connection rigid.
fourth one: if you would drill taps into the frames, and then weld those taps to the hull, you will have a gap for sure, and imagine the boat healing over, all the load of the water that doesn't get "transfered" through the chines would be placed upon the taps giving you a huge point load, with might cause the tap to be pressed into the wood, which won't do good to the hull shape, but even worse under repetive load the weld might get fatigued and break off or even puncture through the hull.

One further point of concern: how are you going to put frames into the keel? If you decided to use the old oak ones, it will be very difficult to place them into the keel and somehow connect them to the plating. If you decide to use steel frames, you will need to think about how you are going to weld them that deep into the keel. Normally one would use slot welds to do this.

[Brent Swain]

I've worked mostly this year repairing wood damage, where bolting wood on steel has resulted in the steel rusting thru. Keep the wood away from the steel as much as possible.
Forget the transverse frames , just go longitudinals, as they are far more effective in strengthening and supporting the plate. With good longitudinals , transverse framing becomes irrelevant.
The bermuda rig for my 31 footer cost me under $300, far less than a junk rig would, with all that extra line. Used sails for a bermuda rig are a fraction the cost of materials, and are available verywhere, ready made.
Give your self a pilot house, and don't force yourself to sit out in the rain. Boats without pilothouses are bad seamanship.

[Arvy]

How could I forget about the rusting :)

[evantica]

Brent & Arvy, thanks! I hear what you say...
1st. The Ol' wooden frame: I've allready calculate the "space" between the hull/frame= no real problem there and I do belive I can do this ridgid.
2nd. I dont know about temerature steel vs. Wood purhapse this is a huge problem, I have no idea!?
3d. About the keel /wooden one: The Ol' wooden Oak keel will fitt like a glove in that keel space! I had an Idea of welding some plate "over the wood"= to hold it in place (yes I know the welding heat/wood will burn so please no funny comment;) )
Finnaly: is there away to protect it from rusting, wood/steel?
and Arvy will you please try to explain it "better" / in another way? purhapse with a drawing or picture??? Would really appriciate it!!!
(My brain is sometimes not that clever to translate)
""""Forget the transverse frames , just go longitudinals"""
pic' on the keel sec. Oak

[Arvy]

Finnaly: is there away to protect it from rusting, wood/steel?

You need to isolate the wood from the steel and make sure no water can accumulate between the wood and the steel (wood by itself is moistly already). Very difficult to do.


and Arvy will you please try to explain it "better" / in another way? purhapse with a drawing or picture??? Would really appriciate it!!!
(My brain is sometimes not that clever to translate)
""""Forget the transverse frames , just go longitudinals"""
pic' on the keel sec. Oak
Which part would you like to see in a different explaination (or a drawing)?

[evantica]

Hi arvy! the part I want you to be "clearer" about is "Forget the transverse frames , just go longitudinals" Do you mean no Frames ? Just Longinals ?
Hakan

[Arvy]

Hi Hakan,

It wasn't me saying that, it was Brent, I would never say such a thing :) but I don't want to start that discussion in your thread.

Grtz,
Arvy

[Brent Swain]

Hi arvy! the part I want you to be "clearer" about is "Forget the transverse frames , just go longitudinals" Do you mean no Frames ? Just Longinals ?
Hakan
Yes . No frames . Just longitudinals, as frames have been proven totally irrelevant in boats the size of yours, time and time again. .
Now that you have got the wood out of the boat, keeep it out . Use it for interior joinery only, not structural. There is no reliable way to stop soggy wood from corroding out any steel under it, especially in low, damp areas ,like the bilge..

[evantica]

ok & thanks for answer! Heres another one... The next step is to weld her up from the inside. But I'm a bit unsecure If I shall weld her completley first? and then put in the frames/ longitudunals? or...
Purhapse it's better do some frames/ longitudunals first?
I intend to do some "stabiliser" som make her steady and not bend and so before anything!!!
The reason for asking is: If I weld the "longitudunals" -right inbetween where the steel plates meet/"chine"-will this be a stronger connection?
or/if I weld it before and then weld the Longitudunals in place? Hope you know what I'm asking???
And how about dimention in millimeters on those Longi./ Frame you suggest?
If you have the time and kindness to answer I appriciate it!

[Brent Swain]

ok & thanks for answer! Heres another one... The next step is to weld her up from the inside. But I'm a bit unsecure If I shall weld her completley first? and then put in the frames/ longitudunals? or...
Purhapse it's better do some frames/ longitudunals first?
I intend to do some "stabiliser" som make her steady and not bend and so before anything!!!
The reason for asking is: If I weld the "longitudunals" -right inbetween where the steel plates meet/"chine"-will this be a stronger connection?
or/if I weld it before and then weld the Longitudunals in place? Hope you know what I'm asking???
And how about dimention in millimeters on those Longi./ Frame you suggest?
If you have the time and kindness to answer I appriciate it!

The chines are longitudinals in themselves, structurally. They are phenominally strong ,without anything added. Put the longitudinals betwen the chines, on the plate, where they are needed for stiffness. You need to put the longitudinals in before welding ,to stop the shrinkage of the longitudinal welds from turning the plate into a roller coaster, which would make it extremely hard to force the plate straight and get them in. Dont put any transverse framing in before welding the longitudinal welds. Otherwise, stiffening the hull at frames, while longitudinal welds shrink longitudinally, will lead to major distortion between frames.
I use 25mm by 25mm by 10mm angle longitudinals.

[evantica]

Hi there someone? I have a question, look at the picture, Will it be /or not? nessecery to weld a Longitudunal where the steelplates meet (Red arrow). can I leave it like this pic'???
and "Brent" sead 25x25x10 for longitudunals, isn't this a bit "over do"??? I don't say you're wrong Brent just wanna know.

[Brent Swain]

Apologies, 25mm by 25mm by 6mm would be better.
There is no need for a longitudinal along the chine as the chine is phenominally strong in it's longitudinal direction anyway, it being a huge angle iron. Adding anything there would simply increase the odds of a hole being punched next to the stringer , if you ever pound the chine on sharp rocks .

[evantica]

ok And Thanks Brent!

[evantica]

Hi There friends! What do you say about my "cradle" :confused: I will save a minor fortune to do like this, instead of buying a whole lot of steel! Can you see any difficulties that I missed?

The RED lines is steelbars (?) to hold her!

[evantica]

Why didn't the 2nd pic be there???...oh.. now I see "Invalid file" ..hm..
try again... The yellow is boat hull:)

[evantica]

Yes I'm back:) I left the "cradle model" and come up with a better plan, also some welding progress...
Gonna build/ weld on some "legs" on the hull instead= easyer...

[evantica]

OK I keep posting:) Today I got "her" up on her feet..opps sorry, Keel;)

[Brent Swain]

A couple of stainless sockets at the waterline let you insert sheer legs anytime from your dinghy , tied to the stanchions for drying out any time. A couple of ss 12mm acorn nuts, welded in flush, a couple of feet from them at 90 degrees to the sockets lets you bolt braces on the sheerlegs ,when the tide goes out, for longer stays. Very easy to do at this stage.

[evantica]

Brent sounds very interesting, would you please "draw" me a "plan" on how you meant more exactly? don't know what "12mm Acron nuts is? welded in flush? 90 degress to the socket? and so on...would appriciate it alot! and you have a true friend in Sweden!
Hakan

[evantica]

Brent I figured it out! good Ide'!

[evantica]

:) hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[evantica]

Today the boatdesigner arrive. And belive it or not:) He was pleased what i saw. We took meassure in every direction (!?) And now he'll take the parameters home to calculate.
But he sead it looked ok, even had a better "bow" than a C. Archer (sailingwise that is= not that wide!) So as you all can imagine (when listened to some of you) I'm real happy today! and yes you may congratulate me:)

[evantica]

from now on at: www.evantica.blogspot.com
see yaa there... cpt. Hakan

[evantica]

Yes I still struggling , The creation of the cape horner is on going!

[evantica]

No funny comments? Do you still think I will sail to cape Horn? (Yes I like to discuss, for and against!)

[Arvy]

So you got the frames, longs and deckbeams in.. quite some progress :)

Glad you did let go of the idea to reuse the wooden ones :) at that would have become a big mess.

A bit hard to see, but I kinda got the impression that the topmost stringer is very close, or maybe over a seam. The pic isn't to clear about it. I also got the idea that the lines aren't fluid every where, at the second pic looking aft next to the cabintop? you can see the sheerline "dent" in a bit. But again, it might be the picture that destorts the line with the frame playing tricks with my mind :D , hopefully this will become ok once the deck comes up.. otherwise, you will need a lot of epoxy to get the line smooth :)

I also have the idea that one of the frames is on top of a seam as well, in the first picture. Might be the picture again tho (fourth frame, top plate).

[troy2000]

Good to see you still making progress; this is another of those threads that I somehow missed for a while.

[Arvy]

Same here, missed it too while browsing through the forum, don't know why actually :)

[thedutchtouch]

A couple of stainless sockets at the waterline let you insert sheer legs anytime from your dinghy , tied to the stanchions for drying out any time. A couple of ss 12mm acorn nuts, welded in flush, a couple of feet from them at 90 degrees to the sockets lets you bolt braces on the sheerlegs ,when the tide goes out, for longer stays. Very easy to do at this stage.

i'll take a stab at explaining this since it seems brent hasn't come back to reply-
stainless steel sockets at the waterline- sockets around the outside of the boat facing down, allowing you to put a support leg in place from a dinghy while the boat floats at high tide. for more on "sheer legs"/ Shear legs read this link: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/shear-legs-metal-boats-26241.html

12mm acorn nuts- an acorn nut is like a bolt, but it is closed on one end, (google "acorn nut" for a picture) welding these in "flush" would mean cut a small hole in the hull, and weld it inside so it basically ends up looking like you have a small hole that is sealed on the back side, and is threaded, allowing you to screw a bolt or section of threaded rod into it. install these so that the threaded rod forms a 90 degree angle with the previously mentioned support legs (sheer legs).

sorry i am at work and can't draw it out but hopefully that made at least a little bit of sense.

[hoytedow]

No funny comments? Do you still think I will sail to cape Horn? (Yes I like to discuss, for and against!)I know nothing of steel boat-building. But I like the looks of her so far. I hope she will be strong and seaworthy. :cool:


PS This is an acorn nut.:

[Submarine Tom]

Acorns are a nice touch. Watch out for "bottoming" if your bolt is a touch too long.

Lock washers (or split washer as they are sometimes called) can be a good idea as it's hard to see if they're backing off.

Blue LocTite can also be used while still being able to remove the thing while red Loctite will bond it forever.

-Tom

[wardd]

Acorns are a nice touch. Watch out for "bottoming" if your bolt is a touch too long.

Lock washers (or split washer as they are sometimes called) can be a good idea as it's hard to see if they're backing off.

Blue LocTite can also be used while still being able to remove the thing while red Loctite will bond it forever.

-Tom


going to upset a lot of people here but lock washers don't lock

think about it, when you torque a bolt down on a lock washer it's now a flat washer

[Submarine Tom]

It most certainly is flat wardd, you are absolutely correct. You are also correct that they do not lock.

I'm not going to argue with you there.

-Tom

[hoytedow]

Wingnuts, however, will haunt this forum forever.

[evantica]

Hi. ANd thanks for comments, appriciate it! Yes you're right "Arvy" about the stringers, these where real hard to bend, and pull exactly. I don't know how important this is? But they are welded in place as good as i could, about strenght I see no problem. Don't know how much the pic shows... But at the "rear" end of her, she's stiff as a rock ANd I do belive I could have drop her for some serious hight, into the concrete and not much would have happen. I'm personally pleased with the development, And she will not be a fancy looking ocen boat, I lay my "Powder" on the sea worthness and strenght, and safety. But I do like the look of her. reminds of an ol' timer oceanboat (I think!) Keep up the comments... Sincerely: Cpt. Hakan on his way to Cape Horn soon...

[evantica]

I forgott to mentioned. I'm real pleased with the "Hinges" where to lift the boat. As seen in pic. # 1. I've tried this and worked perfectly in a mobile crane. Mention this as a tip for future builders?!

[evantica]

about the stainless sockets, yes I know what you're saying & thanks for telling. But I think I will do somthing to attache them in my hinges (as mentioned, where to lift the boat) purhapse some "telescopic" bars?

[peter radclyffe]

[QUOTE=evantica;406814]Hi. ANd thanks for comments, appriciate it! Yes you're right "Arvy" about the stringers, these where real hard to bend, and pull exactly. I don't know how important this is? But they are welded in place as good as i could, about strenght I see no problem. Don't know how much the pic shows... But at the "rear" end of her, she's stiff as a rock ANd I do belive I could have drop her for some serious hight, into the concrete and not much would have happen. I'm personally pleased with the development, And she will not be a fancy looking ocen boat, I lay my "Powder" on the sea worthness and strenght, and safety. But I do like the look of her. reminds of an ol' timer oceanboat (I think!) Keep up the comments... Sincerely: Cpt. Hakan on his way to Cape Horn soon...[/QUOTE

it might be better if you look at this another way, or drop it from a great height , then you will have to look at it another way

[evantica]

radclyffe. "it might be better if you look at this another way, or drop it from a great height , then you will have to look at it another way" sorry but didn't get the message here??? I meant if the stringers wasn't bend that exactly, I (!) do not see the problem with this? And I meant she is strong enough. so please explain what you're after with this comments, I honestly don't know!

[peter radclyffe]

perhaps i misunderstood you, are you talking about dropping your boat

[evantica]

NO! I meant she feels like she is strong enough, for no matter what (with reservation!)

[Arvy]

Oh, I just noticed that some of the stringers weren't fluid, and might cross the seam.

The stringers not being fluid doesn't matter for the strength.

but stringers crossings seams, and a frame that appears to be on top of a buttock can pose weaker spots.

However, I also do like the way she looks :D

[evantica]

Hi Arvy! And thanks!