first time using fiberglass, seeking advice

[Conundrum_UK]

Hi everyone,

OK first post so I'm hoping this is in the right place, if not apologies in advance. This isn't specifically about boatbuilding but it seems people on here know a lot about using fiberglass so I came here for advice about a somewhat unusual project I'm trying to build.

If anyone here has played Bioshock, it's the Big Daddy (a costume of it anyway). For those who haven't, I can post a link to some youtube videos and reference material if that's ok with the forum rules, but it's basically a huge armoured diving suit about 7ft tall. The costume I'm trying to make doesn't actually need to work as a diving suit, just be big and wearable, and fairly strong (I'll have to transport it from the midlands to London and back for a show that I'm planning on taking it to)

I'm about halfway through making a rough cardboard 1:1 scale model of the body section (the limbs I'll be making with cloth and plastazote mostly). The measurements are:
42" tall
25" wide
19" Deep

Those are approximate greatest values, there would be a lot of empty space within that cuboid, but from these I've calculated a rough surface area of just under 3 square meters.

After doing some research, I came up with a plan to buy:
5m of 1.27m, 450g Biaxial cloth and
3.02Kg of SP 106 slow Multi purpose Epoxy
I planned on covering the back half of the finished male mold after putting on some type of release agent, removing the fiberglass when fully cured, flipping the mold and covering the front side leaving a little overlap, then fiberglassing the 2 halves together when they are both free of the mold. Enty and exit to the costume will be via a 2' hole in the front where the head dome will be slotted into place. The entire shell will be held in place using a modified backpack that will be attached to the inside.

That's the plan, but so far it's only based on reading up on how someone else made this (though he didn't use biax) and some bits of research from unrelated projects (various canoes, surfboards, and a chair). Does anyone have any advice on this? would the materials stated work? is there something I'm missing? I've heard horror stories about the resin not curing at all if the ratio is even slightly out, should I use a syringe or something? will the cold weather be likely to affect the curing process if done in an unheated garage?

Anyway, I'll shut up now, but thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

[Itchy&Scratchy]

Hey conundrum

Post the links so we can have a look. where are you in the UK

Itchy

[Conundrum_UK]

Thanks,
I'm basing mine on this one:
http://volpinprops.blogspot.com/2009/09/big-daddy-bioshock.html

There's a couple of youtube videos showing that same one in action here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5vps6lizg0&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYXAD4aTJUg&feature=related
(he later padded out the limbs and added coloured lights to the portholes)

I'm in the midlands, near Birmingham, so might take it out round there after the show in London.

[Tiny Turnip]

these guys do full on big scale commercial stuff, for shopping centre christmas grottos etc, including some pretty amazing anamatronic work. Might be worth a look through their website, or some questions by email...

http://www.kddecoratives.com/kd/kd-production/

[SamSam]

Use something besides fiberglass cloth. Ask Itchy&Scratchy why. ;)

[Conundrum_UK]

Ah, hadn't thought of that, I'm guessing it'll itch a lot wearing it?
what if I put an extra layer of resin on the inside, would that do?

edit: Oh, thanks for the link Tiny Turnip, but I prefer to make things myself, the challenge is part of the fun :)

[Tiny Turnip]

Oh, yes, definitely, me too. just thought there might be helpful information on materials or techniques that might be useful to you...

[Conundrum_UK]

oh, ok, sorry, I misinterpreted. :)

[hoytedow]

If it is just a costume, why not use papier mache or some other friendlier art medium?

[apex1]

You can use a light fabric (about 120 gram m²) it can be sewn using polyester yarn. When saturated with resin it approx. doubles its weight. The completely cured stuff does not itch! And when using epoxy resin it does not lead to allergic reactions on the skin. But careful!!! the uncured epoxy / hardener DOES !!!

Regards
Richard

[SamSam]

I didn't even think about the chemicals, but they're pretty inert when cured. I thought the costume was a full suit with working joints like the Tinman in the Wizard of Oz, and you'd have a hard time keeping that from itching. You could probably do it with regular glass. It's not the resin, it's the fabric that itches.There are other fabrics beside regular fiberglass, that don't itch. Kevlar, nylon from a fabric store can work, just about anything that is fairly compatible with the resin should work.

It's a remote danger, but you might want to think a little about flammability and how quick you could get out of it.

[Conundrum_UK]

Thanks for the replies everyone,

just to clarify, it's only the main body, head, and possibly drill blade that will be fiberglass, the limbs should be cloth and possibly some type of padding or wire to fill them out.

@hoytedow: The main reason for using fiberglass is durability, the first costume I made got damaged in transit and it took almost the rest of the day to repair, so I try to overengineer them now. I was going to use plastazote origonally (a type of flexible foam sheet that can be fairly durable when made into a solid structure) but after seeing the Volpin suit, I figured fiberglass would be more durable and rigid, and would overcome a few disadvantages to using plastazote.

@apex1 & SamSam: Thanks for the info, does it work with any fabric? any idea what the strength would be compared to glass? I'll do some research on this.

Oh, also, I had thought about the flammability issue, so far my plan consists of "avoid fire"...
I'll try to make the helmet quick release from the inside.

[apex1]

Has it to be transparent?

I cannot really imagine what you are planning, a picture would be helpful!

You must not fear fire when using poly or epoxy resin and glassfabric. That is pretty much flame resistant.

Regards
Richard

[Frosty]

PVC pipe and a couple of dustbins??? Or would that look too much like Bill and Ben the flower pot men.

Sorry folks this is Brit stuff.

[Conundrum_UK]

Thanks again for all the replies so far, any information is appreciated. Here's the best picture I could find, it's the one with a drill I'm trying to make:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigdaddy-renders.jpg

It shouldn't be transparent, since it's the metal parts I planned on using fiberglass for, I'll be adding either transparent portholes or some type of periscope system to see through. I'm mostly copying this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5vps6lizg0&feature=player_embedded

It's been done before by adapting cardboard boxes, plastic bins, and other household items to act as the main body, but as cleverly as people have modified them, it's never quite the right shape until the one in that video.

@Frosty: lol, I wouldn't want to end up looking anything like Bill & Ben, or I'd keep being searched for weed ;)

[hoytedow]

Conundrum, the view ports on the front of the costume may be available through your local optometrist. They sometimes have circular convex lens samples showing the different shades available. You may be able to persuade them to part with a few obsolete shades. They are typically in the 7cm diam. size.

[apex1]

It shouldn't be transparent, since it's the metal parts I planned on using fiberglass for, I'll be adding either transparent portholes or some type of periscope system to see through.
Thanks

I'm mostly copying this:
Cannot watch youtube at present!


Build the "Metal" parts of cheap glassfibre, even mat will do, and polyester resin. Use a light fabric, say 100gsm for the visor part of the helmet. Make the layup on a film of "mylar" and you have a clear transparent screen you can look through! The glassfibre becomes transparent when saturated with clear resin.

You can use any light polyester fabric reinforced by cheap polyester resin to make the rest of the costume.

Hope that helps.
Richard

[Conundrum_UK]

Thanks both of you, I'll check about the optometrist sample lenses & get the materials ordered in the next few days :D
I've heard that epoxy is stronger than polyester, I don't mind paying extra for a better strength / weight ratio even if it doesn't really need it (like I say, I like to overengineer for durability). Would it give an advantage? or would I be better just using extra layers of polyester?

[Frosty]

If you are a thespian you would get a discount from a theatrical shop. I think there is a good one in the high street in Basingstoke near the Tahj Mahal Indian.

If you dipped your jammies in epoxy and then went to sleep, in the morning it would be stiff.

[apex1]

Thanks both of you, I'll check about the optometrist sample lenses & get the materials ordered in the next few days :D
I've heard that epoxy is stronger than polyester, I don't mind paying extra for a better strength / weight ratio even if it doesn't really need it (like I say, I like to overengineer for durability). Would it give an advantage? or would I be better just using extra layers of polyester?

Epoxy becomes inert when cured, poly not to the same extend. So, epoxy is the better choice, yes. And a bit stronger too.

[Conundrum_UK]

OK, thanks yet again for the information, just about to order the materials, so far decided on the SP 106 Multi purpose Epoxy - 3.02 KG Pack - Slow @ £48.95 that I was looking at before, It seems as though the cheapest cloth available is: 450g Biaxial cloth - 1.27 mt wide £2.98 per meter
I take it there's a 1:1 ratio of cloth to resin? so if I get enough of this for 1 layer and maybe add a less itchy, lightwieght cloth like polycotton for an inner layer, would it be likely to need any more layers for the main body section? Not sure about the impact resistance of biaxial vs woven. I'm probably just getting paranoid about this but it's a big project for me.
The complete costume should be about 6-7ft tall, but the main body is about 42" of that, surface area around 3 square meters.

[apex1]

The 450gsm is already a bit overkill, I would say. But when it shall last forever...300 does it!
The prices are fair!
Yes the weight of resin and fabric are more or less equal, when you wet out the fabric proper (and not overdo the job, more does´nt help more)

So, when it comes out at 3m² you would end up at about 3kg weight, still much.

Regards
Richard

[Conundrum_UK]

:confused: sorry for bumping an old thread, but I'm just about to start fiberglassing the mold and there's something I wanted to check. I'm using a slow curing epoxy and the leaflet says it should be used at a temperature of 15-25 degrees centigrade. The room I'll be using though isn't heated or insulated and the temperature doesn't go above 10 in the day. At night I don't know if it's even above 0. Is this likely to be a problem?

Also, this is the male mold I've made so far
http://i45.tinypic.com/29473pf.jpg
(The photo actually shows 2 molds, the larger one for the body shell, and the smaller dome shape for a removable helmet that slots into the front)
my plan so far is to cover it with a thin pvc sheet, stretched tight around it, to act as a release agent. It doesn't matter if it gets stuck to the fiberglass because then it's a barrier between the fiberglass and me, as long as it doesn't get stuck to the mold. In order to not destroy the mold though, I plan on fiberglassing the left half first (the right half is visible in the photo), removing it after curing, then doing the right half, then joining them together with an extra layer down the middle. I've heard that using multiple layers after curing is bad, but the only alternative seems to be to destroy the mold, which I'd prefer not to do. Any advice?

Thanks again in advance.

[hoytedow]

Can you put a space heater in the room? You really need it to be sufficiently warm to get a good cure. If you can have the heat warming one side of the room where the epoxy is curing, that should be adequate. You don't have to get the whole room warm. Directional heat should do it. Place a couple of thermometers in strategic locations and monitor them. No open flames!

[Conundrum_UK]

I have access to a small electric space heater, but I've done a bit of testing with it and it doesn't seem to be able to cover the whole area of the mold I'll be working on. I'll try and find another heater, thanks for letting me know.

[Conundrum_UK]

I'm not sure why, but this isn't working. I tried a test piece about A4 size, measured out 100ml of resin to 20ml of slow hardener (the mix ratio is 5:1), gave it what seemed to be an excessive amount of mixing, then spread it on as evenly as I could. I left the sample with a hot water bottle underneath it and a space heater shining on it for most of the day, then switched everything off and went to bed. By that time it seemed hard in that it clicked when I tapped it with a fingernail.

I picked it up this morning, this is what I found:
http://i50.tinypic.com/s4svhx.jpg

The whole thing is flexible, as if I used rubber instead of epoxy. I'm not sure what would have caused this. Is there any known problem that causes results like this? I really need this stuf to be loadbearing when I make the finished shell. Any ideas?

[hoytedow]

What temperature was the room?

[Conundrum_UK]

it varied between nearly 20 degrees when I had both the heaters running to about 5 during the night, They were only kept at full power for about an hour though then turned down. The sample had, I think, most of the day at 15 degrees or more (though it may have dipped below that on a couple of occasions).

It looks like temperature was the problem though, I left that sample on a couple of hot water bottles by the radiator yesterday and now it's much stiffer and stronger. I guess it hadn't fully cured yesterday morning.

Anyway, sorry to dig up this thread again unnecessarily, guess I'll have to find some way to increase the temperature for the next batch.

[Herman]

Indeed. You cannot expect slow curing epoxy to completely cure overnight at 15 to 20 degrees C. It just needs more time, or more heat. Even when heating it up to 80 degrees C it needs time to fully cure. (I deliberately do not give an exact time, as I do not know which epoxy is used.)

Also, keep in mind that the 100:20 mixing ratio very probably is by weight, not by volume. With the hardeners typically being lightweight, and the resin considerably heavier, you can be as much as 15% off (meaning the weight ratio is 100:17 instead of 100:20.

In general, this should not have too much influence on cure time. The cured resin might be a bit on the stiff side. Adding more hardener than neccesay makes it a bit more on the ductile side. Still, I would aim for the most exact ratio as possible.

[hoytedow]

Please keep us posted as we want to see how your project turns out. Good luck.:)

[hoytedow]

it varied between nearly 20 degrees when I had both the heaters running to about 5 during the night, They were only kept at full power for about an hour though then turned down. The sample had, I think, most of the day at 15 degrees or more (though it may have dipped below that on a couple of occasions).

It looks like temperature was the problem though, I left that sample on a couple of hot water bottles by the radiator yesterday and now it's much stiffer and stronger. I guess it hadn't fully cured yesterday morning.

Anyway, sorry to dig up this thread again unnecessarily, guess I'll have to find some way to increase the temperature for the next batch.Have you any news?