Advice on the fees for a 62 footers

[Steph357]

Hello everyone.

I have the opportunity to work on the design of the hull of a 62 meters semi displacement craft. I will be working on my own and my job will be to realize the hull design with stability calculation and hull resistance estimation.

As it will be new for me working this way, I would need some help to know how much I can charge such a project.

Thank you very much

EDIT: fyi, I am still young and not very experimented, and the boat I might going to design is a series boat

[gonzo]

If you are not experienced figuring out how much to charge is the least of your problems. A semi-displacement boat of that size to go into production would take five people six months. That is not taking into account fancy interiors.

[dskira]

Hello everyone.

I have the opportunity to work on the design of the hull of a 62 meters semi displacement craft. I will be working on my own and my job will be to realize the hull design with stability calculation and hull resistance estimation.

As it will be new for me working this way, I would need some help to know how much I can charge such a project.

Thank you very much

EDIT: fyi, I am still young and not very experimented, and the boat I might going to design is a series boat

If you are inexperimented and do not know how much to charge, you should be honnest with the client and tell him the design is to much for your knoweldge, and you will be not able to design the 62'.
You have no idea it seams what it take to design such a boat.
Be very clear with the client about your level of knoweldge.
Don't forget you are responsable legaly when you design a hull.
Always know your limits and work within them. The answer about money will come with experience.
Cheers
Daniel

[Steph357]

First of all the client knows exactly what my capability are, I haven't lied to him about my capabilities, my knowledge and my experience.

In this design the "only" thing I have to do is the design of the hull, I won't be involve in the interior design, structural design, machinery, electric or anything of that sort. I just have to provide a lines plan, and I am feeling like I might be pretentious regarding your comments to say that, but I think I am totally capable of doing that job.

I had a discussion with my client, who runs the shipyard has built boats for 30 years, regarding some shape I already did for him and he seems happy with them.

Money is definitly not what I am looking for, but to be professionnal in that business I think that I need to act like so, and in this project, I need now to arrive with a serious proposal, which include design fees.

I am leaving in China, so doing this work for 500 euros will allowed me to leave 3 months partying every week end... Money is really not my main concern, but I just realized that I can't value myself, regarding what I know and what I can do or not, and that's why I am asking the question.

[dskira]

[QUOTE=Steph357;316450]In this design the "only" thing I have to do is the design of the hull, I won't be involve in the interior design, structural design, machinery, electric or anything of that sort. I just have to provide a lines plan, and I am feeling like I might be pretentious regarding your comments to say that, but I think I am totally capable of doing that job.
/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying, but how you do the hull lines without a weight estimate? You have to do that first, and for that you have to have a clear idea of the construction and engineering.
You can't design just the hull. The repartition of the weight is part of designing the lines.
No, I am sorry, it is far more complicate of what you think.
I will never think you lie to your client, I am sure you are very honnest, no doubt about that, but be very carefull, the lines drawing includes a lot more of what you think.
Cheers
Daniel

[fcfc]

I understand what you are saying, but how you do the hull lines without a weight estimate? You have to do that first, and for that you have to have a clear idea of the construction and engineering.
You can't design just the hull. The repartition of the weight is part of designing the lines.
No, I am sorry, it is far more complicate of what you think.
I will never think you lie to your client, I am sure you are very honnest, no doubt about that, but be very carefull, the lines drawing includes a lot more of what you think.
Cheers
Daniel

I agree, especially if the yard is asking for stablity calculation. VCG must be known, and I wonder how you do it from a line plan.

[fcfc]

Also, you can find parametric design and statistical analysis on tanker, carrier or other big ships, but I do not think you could find something useful for smaller crafts.
But the yard probably want the final product to match ABS/MPY and/or EU/RCD stability rules.

[apex1]

So, you´re able enough to attract a repeat client.

But unable to calculate your fees.

There the question arises: where did you learn / study?

And please do´nt mix "design" as it is understood in English language (only), and "styling" (what the rest of the world understands being design), which is what you obviously are doing.

You may have noticed there shines some scepticism through the comments of my peers. It seems, another complete amateur is playing boat design.

That may find some assistance here, when the intended use is your own "homebuilt", but when it comes to a professional stage of business, you will hardly find any support here.
You would eat there bread!

fcfc
there is a hell of a lot more than the VCG to be part of the game. And what please, is MPY?

Regards
Richard

[fcfc]

And what please, is MPY?

Regards
Richard

http://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPortalWEB/appmanager/absEagle/absEagleDesktop?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=abs_eagle_portal_rules_guides_download_page&nodePath=%2FBEA+Repository%2FRules%26Guides%2FCurrent%2F62_MotorPleasureYachts

I do not know what are the US rules for less than 80 ft.

[apex1]

A simple explanation like "Motor Pleasure Yachts" would have done, even for me.
Thanks

[Kay9]

Why dont you guys give the young man a break and help him out here a bit rather then jump down his throat about his lack of experiance. If his customer that knows him wants him to do the work then the quality of his work is not in question here. He just dosnt know how to charge for it.

I know a lot of great shipwrights that have allways worked for others that have no idea what to charge when they go out on there own.

Now either live up to what this board stands for and help the young man out or just be quiet.

My $0.01 rant

K9

[apex1]

Kay

you missed a point I guess.
This guy asked for assistance in a commercial field where he does´nt belong.
I commented that.

[Kay9]

No Apex, I read the whole post and english is my FIRST language. You have jumped to some really startling conclusions based on what a young man whos first language is NOT english has posted.

So I guess my first post here stands, if you cant help the young man out, why dont you just be quiet?

K9

[apex1]

Sorry, are you a bit confused?

What has his ability of speaking English to do with it?
What are you telling ME what I have to do, or leave?
Is this another piss at Richard contest, starting here?

Three pro´s did not like his approach (me included).
When you like it, support him, or keep your mouth shut!

[fcfc]

A simple explanation like "Motor Pleasure Yachts" would have done, even for me.
Thanks

I should have clicked on the link before submitting it to the forum, because there is NO stability requirement in it :D

[Kay9]

Wow Apex, Your opinion of yourself is so high that you cannot "lower" yourself to help out a young man in your own profession. When I point out that you have missread his post and you should either help him or quietly stand aside and let others that might be willing to help him speak you get upset and proclaim that "Another piss a Richard contest is starting".

You might want to try a new pill called Ego-be-gone cause yours is out of controll.

K9

[apex1]

Jaja Kay.............

Support him. The poor young man is just looking for a simple answer! (which he did not have, when he was on the level NEEDED to do what he is going to do)

And I was the only one to adress your rant, right?
Gonzo and Dskira did assist, yes?

http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/geschlossen.gif

[Kay9]

Steph357 said "I have the opportunity to work on the design of the hull of a 62 meters semi displacement craft. I will be working on my own and my job will be to realize the hull design with stability calculation and hull resistance estimation.

As it will be new for me working this way, I would need some help to know how much I can charge such a project.

Thank you very much

EDIT: fyi, I am still young and not very experimented, and the boat I might going to design is a series boat"

Now I read this and what I hear is a young man that has done some work in the past has been asked by a customer of HIS, not yours apex, to and I quote "Work on the design of a hull". It dose not sound as though he will be working as the sole engineer/designer but as an assist to one the customer allready has.

The young man further points out that he is not overly experianced and could use some help in determining how exactly to charge for his services.

Since he is not in direct competition with you Apex, and he isnt actively affecting one of your customers, I dont get/understand your hostility towards him. He might have even had further question about this project that he would have dearly loved to have brought here and asked experianced designers/engineers before he was so throughly decapitated by some of the "old timmers" here.

[fcfc]

One must admit Steph357 has special posts.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/design-software/help-design-maxsurf-30170.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/powerboats/semi-displacement-hull-30169.html

By the way, if someone could answer to the semi displacement post, I would be pleased too :) .

[apex1]

Steph357 said "I have the opportunity to work on the design of the hull of a 62 meters semi displacement craft. I will be working on my own and my job will be to realize the hull design with stability calculation and hull resistance estimation.

As it will be new for me working this way, I would need some help to know how much I can charge such a project.

Thank you very much

EDIT: fyi, I am still young and not very experimented, and the boat I might going to design is a series boat"

Now I read this and what I hear is a young man that has done some work in the past has been asked by a customer of HIS, not yours apex, to and I quote "Work on the design of a hull". It dose not sound as though he will be working as the sole engineer/designer but as an assist to one the customer allready has.

The young man further points out that he is not overly experianced and could use some help in determining how exactly to charge for his services.

Since he is not in direct competition with you Apex, and he isnt actively affecting one of your customers, I dont get/understand your hostility towards him. He might have even had further question about this project that he would have dearly loved to have brought here and asked experianced designers/engineers before he was so throughly decapitated by some of the "old timmers" here.

Why are you pissing at ME?
Are you unwilling to understand the others replies on "this young mans" question?

Support him! "Ship Captain" (what so ever that could mean, looks professional)

And go off my back with your dumb "ego" crap.
look here, and watch me assisting (no matter how imperfect the language):
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/outboards/two-engines-one-plus-kicker-30174-2.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/pti-motar-30198.html

[Kay9]

I can see its pointless continuing with this. Thansk for the unsigned negative feedback. And I hope one day you get treated exactly has you have treated others.

K9

[apex1]

I can see its pointless continuing with this. Thansk for the unsigned negative feedback. And I hope one day you get treated exactly has you have treated others.

K9

Definetively I have NO idea what you are talking.

But obviously you do not rant against any lack of advice, that was not given by two other pro´s before I added my opinion.
But you just ignored that, and decided to search a fight with me.
Well do so. I´ll survive.
Richard

and now, before you leave the scene....where is your answer for the "young man"?

[Kay9]

See its that Ego Apex. I didnt initially address my rant at anyone in particular. Here let me put it here again for you"

"Why dont you guys give the young man a break and help him out here a bit rather then jump down his throat about his lack of experiance. If his customer that knows him wants him to do the work then the quality of his work is not in question here. He just dosnt know how to charge for it.

I know a lot of great shipwrights that have allways worked for others that have no idea what to charge when they go out on there own.

Now either live up to what this board stands for and help the young man out or just be quiet.

My $0.01 rant

K9"
Nope dont see your name mentioned in there once, but you sure took it personally.

[apex1]

Kay

you missed a point I guess.
This guy asked for assistance in a commercial field where he does´nt belong.
I commented that.

Jaja.........

[gonzo]

I think the question comes when he claims lack of experience.

[TeddyDiver]

I think the question comes when he claims lack of experience.
Experience being independent.. Not so amazing if you happen to be in China I think..

[Steph357]

Waou !!!!!

I guess I will just figure out myself then.

Thanks anyway.

[dskira]

Hello everyone.

I have the opportunity to work on the design of the hull of a 62 meters semi displacement craft. I will be working on my own and my job will be to realize the hull design with stability calculation and hull resistance estimation.

As it will be new for me working this way, I would need some help to know how much I can charge such a project.

Thank you very much

EDIT: fyi, I am still young and not very experimented, and the boat I might going to design is a series boat

Nobody need to go after Richard, what he post is right.
This young man say he KNOW how to design, but do not KNOW how much to charge.
I say he doesn't KNOW how to design a boat, since his post show an evident lack of experience, and do not ASK for any help.
Only financial help. It is that Richard pointed rightfully.
If the young man ASK for advise, we will gave some, he don't.
So I think some people didn't read the thread and wrote for the sake of pissing context. So please Kay9 read the thread. And the language has nothing to do with this young man. Strange perception you have.

Cheers
Daniel

[Steph357]

Waou... again.

You read 3 lines on a forum and can figure out what I can and can't do ?

I guess I probably sound like a dreamer that step up in a place which isn't his.

I am 24 and I always wanted to be a naval architect and I worked for it, I was on a boat since I was 1. I think I know what I am doing, but again those are only words and no one have to believe me on that.

I though I had to prove my client what I am capable of, not to you.

Maybe you are right, maybe I don't know what I am doing, maybe I am too young, too unexperienced.

But something I am sure is that I won't give up my dreams and a great opportunity to a bunch of guys who don't know me and judge me so quickly.

Again, thank for the answers.

[fcfc]

You cannot expect to get useful practical information for free. Either in this forum or on papers. On the semi displacement post, Ossanen paper does not even list basic parameters as L/B or D/L. I do not speak of more "advanced" parameters as Cp.

Navcad software can do a bunch of performance estimations, including semidisplacement. It costs over 6000$. (year 2005 price)

[apex1]

Waou... again.

You read 3 lines on a forum and can figure out what I can and can't do ?


You should not underestimate some members ability to read.:D In your former threads you had quite a bit more than 3 lines!
of problems.....

But to come to a sensible end:

Make a rough calculation how many manhours it would need to make the complete design. (for a experienced NA)
Now estimate / calculate how big is your part of that. in %

A well established NA gets between 5% and 15% of the total building cost of a yacht (depending on complexity) as royalty fee.
the latter figure valid on megayachts only

A design going in mass production always has to be tweaked a bit to fit the prod. process. Therefore is on the more complex side of the job.
On the other hand, if the design is built a hundred times you do´nt get the fee for every boat.
In mass production the first boat costs the full fee (common 7 - 10%), all successors just a (low) fixed amount.
Or yards and designer agree on a lower royalty fee for every produced boat. Common 1 to 2%.

Problem is, you sure do´nt know how to calculate the complete effort of such a job. but thats not my problem............

Regards
Richard


So, Mr Kay9, whinger and "Ships Captain" any complaints? And why did´nt YOU provide the info? Bigmouth!

[Steph357]

I am not underestimating the reading capability of the member, But I wonder how do you guess on things that you haven't red :D.

Thank you, that was the answer I was looking for, see, it was shorter than all the arguments before :P.

[Kay9]

nevermind
K9

[gonzo]

Down boy.

[baeckmo]

Now, Apex has provided you with the "standard procedure" in this business, that applies for acknowledged professionals. But you might also go another way, regarding that this is a customer you already know. Some yards and mech industries may prefer hiring you as a project consultant on a time basis. That makes the final product their own property and there is no discussion as to what is the sale value and your percentage of that value a.s.o. This way, they have more freedom and may be more interested in you as an "unknown capacity"; they can fire you immediately if not satisfied.

Visit one or two of the well known consultant companies in mechanical engineering or similar, in your region, and find out what they would be prepared to pay an apprentice. Use that as a basis for a negotiation with your customer; agree on a reasonable timerate for your level of competence, and be prepared to settle for a limit on maximum working hours to finished product. Any excess time you spend over that is at your cost. If you are aiming at a professional career, get yourself an insurance covering your ass in case of something going wrong (...sooner or later it will!).

Also, ask for a bank deposit of about 20 % of the estimated total, to be released at some agreed point in the work process. And work hard without taking shortcuts.......!

[apex1]

I am not underestimating the reading capability of the member, But I wonder how do you guess on things that you haven't red :D.
Now we become a bit bold yes? What do you think? I did not read your other enquiries?
Thank you, that was the answer I was looking for, see, it was shorter than all the arguments before :P.

And completely worthless... as long as you do´nt know the timeframe. But that is impossible at you stage of knowledge!
You can imagine why no one did provide this worthless info before???

Baeckmo did give the right hints btw.
But I do´nt know if you wanted to hear that.

[troy2000]

And completely worthless... as long as you do´nt know the timeframe. But that is impossible at you stage of knowledge!
You can imagine why no one did provide this worthless info before???I don't think it's worthless information. Back when I started contracting and drawing my own plans, the hardest part of the job was figuring out what my time and talents might be worth to someone else. And the fact that I knew nothing about that end of the construction business when I started was hardly a reflection on my designing and building skills.

Back then, I'd have killed to get some some rough guidelines on what the general range of pricing by established professionals was. So I'm happy to see some folks giving this young man useful input, instead of just trying to run him off for being unversed on the business aspects of what he wants to do.

[apex1]

Of course you did notice Troy, who gave the info you adress to be not worthless?

[Steph357]

Really talking to you apex is like talking to a wall...

Thank for the answers.

[apex1]

Well Steph, I know.

And I love it this way, I am frank and honest, not polite. You will learn soon, business life is polite, but not honest. You may choose.

[Steph357]

I already did thank you.

[valber]

Steph357
Some useful information you can find here -> http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22380 ... IMHO

[gonzo]

Apex1: the Wall

[apex1]

we do´nt need no education,
we do´nt need no thought control........

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/a/a1/Die_Note.png/600px-Die_Note.png



...leave us kids alone......

[masrapido]

I see apex is on fire insulting and spreading his arrogance all over the forum. Any thread he gets a chance.

Not much else to do in Byzanz, obviously. How sad...

[apex1]

.............


You are´nt very familiar with the Forum obviously......................



But instead quite well with drivel and insults. And insulting me is one of your hobbies for months now.

Not one single post you made has ever provided some positive, supportive or valuable content.

Go back under your stone you simple minded bigmouth.
And a little mas rapido please!

[dskira]

I see apex is on fire insulting and spreading his arrogance all over the forum. Any thread he gets a chance.

Not much else to do in Byzanz, obviously. How sad...

If answering the truth, and making fun of attacks is spreading arrogances well we all, I hope, are arrogant but you.
Read the first post, and then continue scrolling down, you will see, reading interresting and you can learn something.
Cheers
Daniel

[Alik]

Stephan, do it once for ANY fee, after You will know how much You have to charge for such job. Nobody will tell You exactly - it depends on expenses running a business, Your manhours and customer's flexibility.

[dskira]

Where do you see arrogance in what I wrote? Are you on some drugs? I did read the whole thread. Why are you talking about things you know nothing and criticise others for doing the same?

Just as that apex personality. One has to have a lot of free time to read all of my posts and still miss discussions I have been in. Discussions most likely above your (both of you prejudgemental geniuses) technical level.

It takes a special person to say something like that. (Am I fulfilling you prejudgemental expectations yet?)

I am just hones and straight. Not polite...(this should sound familiar to pensioners like the two of you).

Happy reading.


Maslento
What ever :rolleyes:

[dskira]

I have an other question Maslento, did you read finally the thread or you find yourself with to many time in your hand and find very useful to insult me.
You don't know me, so keep quiet, and keep your drug **** to yourself.
You never started a thread, you insulted the US in one of your post while living in Chile, coward, you don't design boat, you have no clue how to behave in the forum, you stink the oportunist with a lot of non resolves feelings.
You just stupidely answer posts with venum. Get out of the people who are talking about boats, since you are not, by far, a boat man.
Masrapido (translation "the fastest) you are the worst nightmare for woman. :D
Daniel

[apex1]

Give it a rest disturbed old man. You are hijacking the thread with your geriatric drivel. And learn spanish before you talk because you only prove my simple points right. mas rapido means faster. not the fastest.

Freudian slip? Something you always wanted to admit to the world? Get help somewhere else.

And stop hijacking the thread with your stupidity.

SHUTUP bloody bastard!

YOU hijacked the thread! And for ONE simple reason only. To insult me...

You premature a..hole should really spread your brainless drivel elsewhere not here!

This is the boatdesign net, not your sandbox, toddler.

[Eddy Johansen]

Stephan, do it once for ANY fee, after You will know how much You have to charge for such job. Nobody will tell You exactly - it depends on expenses running a business, Your manhours and customer's flexibility.

This, Steph357, might be the best piece of advice you get around these quarters. ;)

And if 500 bucks keeps you going for 3 months with weekend parties, 2000 will do the trick for a year, right?