Loose containers at sea - SCARY

[Manie B]

this video is of a ship losing very large containers overboard in bad weather

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmXe0VHHBRs&feature=related

towards the end of the video you can hear the crew joking about something "very expensive"

if anybody can understand the language please tell us what they are saying
because it seems like they think this is funny
where do you think they are
i am shitting myself

[gonzo]

That is really sloppy seamanship. It is apalling that they were not secured properly and then the captain doesn't do anything but laugh.

[marshmat]

I have seen some of these containers that are in seriously bad shape, the connector points being rusted out to the point where the latches could easily rip right through the steel.

I've heard that they're supposed to be inspected now and then, but rust can easily outrun a weld inspector....

[daiquiri]

It sounds like russian to me. We have few russian people at the forum, maybe they could translate.
As for the laughter at the end - I see it more as a nervous, liberatory laugh. Yes, containers were gone but at least they didn't have to fear anymore for the ship's stability, structural damages and, ultimately, for their faith... They've probably been shitting their pants for many long minutes (or hours?) before the whole thing was over.

[Fanie]

I suppose the containers sinking is one thing, but I think what Manie is worried about are the floating ones.
Be real fun crashing into one of those, and yes, it would be at night ;)

[troy2000]

Looks to me like the guys on the bridge had a limited set of options: they could laugh, or they could cry. And in a situation like that, there isn't that big a gap between the two. Either one is venting tensions.

[masalai]

And I think one said, in English, something like 'the beer would be very expensive' at that port/destination 'for a while', so I guess they were beer brewing stainless steel vats that would probably float for some time until spotted and salvaged?....

[Fanie]

Easy to find the floating containers Mas, just follow the trail of damaged boats ;)

[daiquiri]

I guess they were beer brewing stainless steel vats that would probably float for some time until spotted and salvaged?....
Yes, unless they've had some hatch left open, in which case... the beer in that place will keep being considered a luxury good for some time.

Manie, maybe you should see this as a good business opportunity in the beer import-export sector. Just find out what was the destination port of that ship. I have a friend who runs a brewery - together we can make a lots of money on this story. :cool:
We just need to convince those russian fellows to drop few more brewing vats in the sea during the next delivery... ;)

[Sinclair D-R]

That is british humor, Fanie!

Seriously! what can be done besides avoiding shipping lanes and keeping a sahrp watch at all times?
Ideas?
Sinclair

[daiquiri]

Seriously! what can be done besides avoiding shipping lanes and keeping a sahrp watch at all times? Ideas?
Stainless steel cans of that size should be highly reflective to radar beams, so keep the radar turned on and anti-collision alarm too...

I might be wrong here but a Coast Guard airplane equipped with a maritime surveillance radar (ISAR perhaps?) should be able to localize these objects pretty easily, if the area of research is correctly identified. Anyone here involved in SAR operatons, who might confirm or deny that?

[Fanie]

You could fit an echo sounder. Problem is you may not know from which direction you can get hit :rolleyes: Is that Brittish humour also ?

If you have a cat you may need to fit more than one echo sounder. If it's big enough to detect it could cause damage. Rule whales and rocks out as well :D but be nice to see where you should throw for the fish.

Question is who's going to man this thing. If you are brisking ahead full steam you may get the warning just in time to brace for the bump. Grab the beer so it won't spill...

[Sinclair D-R]

Thanks for the observation Daiquiri,

So radar and anti-collision alarm are both "must have", i reckon;
no short cut on these pieces of equipment?

So much for my KIS principle ruling a low key, low tech power cat!

Safety first!
Sinclair

[daiquiri]

Grab the beer so it won't spill...
It could surely become a turning point in your life. All of a sudden you would start hating everything related to beer, cans, breweries and similar.

A thing you might consider unthinkable right now. :D

[daiquiri]

So much for my KIS principle ruling a low key, low tech power cat!
Well, that's not really some big amount of technology nowadays... ;)
I would consider it almost essential, if you are navigating by night or across commercial lanes.

[masalai]

Those facilities are standard on most small radar for recreational boaters... but 'eyes' are better... and if working more reliable...

[Sinclair D-R]

Fanie,

For the beer: could carry a beer-can holder tied up around your neck. At all times!

Best, cheers.
Sinclair

[Sinclair D-R]

Daiquiri,

You need an arch or post to accomodate it, then NRG for the sweep and screen, etc.
I realize it is an -unavoidable- safety equipment...

Masalay,
Did you receive my mail? When you have a minute!

Thanks to Manie for iniciating this thread!

Safe winds.
Sinclair

[Manie B]

Oh well

radar is a must

do you know how stooopid my microcruiser / minitonner is going to look with an arch with radar dome and solar panels

so much for building light hey :rolleyes:

[Frosty]

Cheap radars are not worth the box they come in. I have had two. I would have only had one,-- but this salesman---oooh he was good.

A radar will not see containers.

Ive not heard of any one hitting a container mind you hitting one is the last thing you do. Another reason for not sailing at night.

[Manie B]

Please comment on this radar combination

Raydome 4 kw

http://www.raymarine.co.za/products/marine-radar/radome-antennas/

C80 display

http://www.raymarine.co.za/products/c-series/e02020/

Please keep in mind affordability, and for use on a small yacht as that extra pair of eyes. Not for containers in the water but illegal tankers with no lights and a drunk crew fast asleep.

I hope that Raymarine doesn't fall into this catagory

Cheap radars are not worth the box they come in

just asking cause i dont know

[TeddyDiver]

Good radars might be outside of our price range but I belive the broadband radars are coming.. Thou for the drunken freighters I'd like more to see an affordable anti-freighter missile :P

[mark775]

Radar is good but containers I have seen at sea were mostly just at the surface. An empty refrigerated container will float about six inches up in seawater (it doesn't matter in the short-term if it has been gnarled by a ships prop or not), a container with TVs and appliances about at the surface, A container of beer (60% broken bottles) just under the surface, best case scenario (other than these corks on video) is a containerized pre-fab cedar home at about four feet above waterline. Dipshits have lost as many as nine containers in one good winter storm here.
This is a big deal to the ship's crew. I believe it is still the mate's responsibility (ultimately the master's, of course) and there is nothing that can be done about what happened but salvage later with a ship equipped for this. A big black mark for the mate for not securing well enough (he probably trusted stevedores but he has the obligation to make them do it right).

[mark775]

Teddy, It might be easy for you with everything a guy could need produced locally - Karhu, reindeer, cell phones, tires, (even Santa!)... but the world needs and relies upon shipping.

[Fanie]

Radar's won't see a floating container unless if it sticks out enough. Then it's called a boat ;)

Manie, the only advice I can think of is not to race.

The broadband radar's are advertised in the SA Sailing magazine, but they are still expensive imo. You guys must remember we have a **** value currency and the local idiots wants it to go even worse :( They complain on Tv how 'strong' it is every news cast. We pay 7+ times more for something than what you guys do. Fcuk :(:( Oops sorry. Slipped out :rolleyes:



I think Manie, the question one should ask is "How many of you guys out there encoutered floating containers ?" and "Is it really something one should worry about ?"

You must remember one have troubles finding BIG boats at sea. The sea is a beee heeee heeeeg place. This means your's encountering a container is only about 90% :D

Some more English humour for the chaps here ;)



Masalay,
Did you receive my....

Actually it is Masa_delay.... :D

[TeddyDiver]

Nothing against globalizied economy my friend.. Just f¤%*&#§# vehicles in the hands of &#¤%&# I'm opposed.. :rolleyes:

[Manie B]

i hear what you say guys - thanks

but can anybody give me an answer to this

Please comment on this radar combination

Raydome 4 kw

http://www.raymarine.co.za/products/...dome-antennas/

C80 display

http://www.raymarine.co.za/products/c-series/e02020/

Please keep in mind affordability, and for use on a small yacht as that extra pair of eyes. Not for containers in the water but illegal tankers with no lights and a drunk crew fast asleep.


NOT TALKING ABOUT CONTAINERS

just general usage ;)

[masalai]

2KW is enough and I like Furuno 1623 (16nm) or the 1715 (24nm) models prefering the latter... This AIS "radar" receiver is also a worthy inclusion...

[apex1]

Good radars might be outside of our price range but I belive the broadband radars are coming.. Thou for the drunken freighters I'd like more to see an affordable anti-freighter missile :P

A real good Radar will cost about 25000$ thats true. But the new broadband Radar from Simrad / Lofrans is worth the 5000$ it costs. And you CAN see a container, even with that cheap broadband Radar.
A X band can see a single beer can drifting.
Regards
Richard

[Fanie]

A X band can see a single beer can drifting.
I didn't know that. Hope I never get THAT desperate :D

[Crag Cay]

A X band can see a single beer can drifting.
Really? Perhaps they should have included a beer can in the QinetiQ tests of radar reflectors!

They found it hard to see many of the commercially available reflectors with a defence standard X Band radar unless they were set up in ideal conditions. If I remember, the 100mm tubular reflector's efficiency dropped to almost zero at one degree of heel.

[gonzo]

The filters for wave noise will completely blank off a beer can. In weather like that of the video, even those barrels would be hard to see.

[apex1]

Who said in those conditions? Gonzo?

Crag

At which distance and what condition?

You CAN see a beer can with a commercial quality Radar in the right conditions.

And of course you cannot see a reflector in others.

Are we kidding a bit?

[gonzo]

I guess in totally flat water a beer can could be seen with a radar. Are those designed to be sold in Australia? ;)

[Sinclair D-R]

Fanie,

Again, you made burst out laughing.
Cheers, hips!

Thank you.
Sinclair

[Fanie]

The filters for wave noise will completely blank off a beer can.
Who said in those conditions? Gonzo?

I think what Apex means with conditions is the beer can must be full.
Has anyone tested a full can will actually float. It will pass as a container though because it contains beer.

Are we kidding a bit?
Of course not.

Again, you made burst out laughing.
Sorry Sinclair, this is a serious thread :D

[Frosty]

Can some one offer a link that might suggest that a radar --any radar could detect a single beer can at sea.

Who makes this, what model?

[hoytedow]

Yeah, no laughing!

[Fanie]

How about this SINGLE beer can ?

Do you notice the print error there ? That's 3.75 kl... not 365 ml

[WestVanHan]

Because I cruise in an area where there are thousands upon thousands of uncharted and/or drying rocks,reefs,shoals,etc. and a myriad of deadheads (logs floating just under the surface) I did the best thing I could think of.

Got a good depth sounder,and epoxied the transducer on the bow,facing forwards.

You don't get much distance,maybe 200' due to echoes,but better than nothing.

I guess one could rig up a pole to hang down while enroute.

[Sinclair D-R]

Great idea WestVanHan!

[Frosty]

That is a good idea . I often wondered if that would work.

But it would'nt show a mud bank --would it?

[Sinclair D-R]

Frosty,

Echo sounders:
This thread, read post # 12 from Fanie.

[Tarheel]

Among sailors this is another fear they must not forget.Keeping watch avails little since many containers float is a semisubmerged state.
The containers being moved is astounding,the value can be enormous, and the tracking systems on many containers should provide salvage agencies with some way of catching up with these objects.Adding GPS to the containers would be a good insurance policy for shippers and consumers.

[WestVanHan]

I'm sure I wasn't the first to do it,and never saw Fanie's post.

When I did it,9 years ago,there were none on the market-now there's a few special (forward looking) sonars on the market... $$$$.

It picked up stuff I needed to pick up,and worked well once I figured out how to read the screen.

Dunno about mounting it inside,need to be off of centre (thick glass in the bow point) and guess one could build a water box.
My bow was inaccessable.

[Frosty]

Have you noticed that on the vidio the waves are on the bow at first then later she is going with the seas.

[masalai]

Passed the eye of the storm? - - "eye-eye Cap'n" - - :D:D:D

[ancient kayaker]

Wouldn't a radar receiver be a lot cheaper than an entire set? Wouldn't have to be very sensitive either to pick up those container vessels and tankers heading your way with the crew below decks enjoying dinner. Not much use for detecting submerged containers ahead but then nothing else is either.

[masalai]

Huh:?:

[mark775]

Fishermen routinely use them for finding small floats in calm water. I have chopped my throttles for birds and very nearly had my antenae clipped by planes I thought were birds (because of their speed - they sometimes fly low to the water to get confident in fog). I have to admit, I don't ever recall seeing a container on RADAR - I usually run with it off except in reduced visability (Tho it is required to use all navagation aids at disposal, i.e., if you have a collision in even unlimited visability because somebody ran into you, the first question some F'ing lawyer is going to ask is "when did you first notice him and how did you notice him?"

[Frosty]

Fishermen routinely use them for finding small floats in calm water. I have chopped my throttles for birds and very nearly had my antenae clipped by planes I thought were birds (because of their speed - they sometimes fly low to the water to get confident in fog). I have to admit, I don't ever recall seeing a container on RADAR - I usually run with it off except in reduced visability (Tho it is required to use all navagation aids at disposal, i.e., if you have a collision in even unlimited visability because somebody ran into you, the first question some F'ing lawyer is going to ask is "when did you first notice him and how did you notice him?"

What are you smoking, you chop your throttles because of low flying aircraft practicing for fog? and you what? --run of with 40 ton containers except in reduced visability?

Mark please go to bed and sleep it off.

[Johnnylee]

Fishermen routinely use them for finding small floats in calm water. I have chopped my throttles for birds and very nearly had my antenae clipped by planes I thought were birds (because of their speed - they sometimes fly low to the water to get confident in fog). I have to admit, I don't ever recall seeing a container on RADAR - I usually run with it off except in reduced visability (Tho it is required to use all navagation aids at disposal, i.e., if you have a collision in even unlimited visability because somebody ran into you, the first question some F'ing lawyer is going to ask is "when did you first notice him and how did you notice him?"

Great info, thanks for sharing

[apex1]

Frosty
lookup the Furuno 2117 / 19 series of Radars, have a min. 6,5´ open array antenna and feel fine! If the resolution/ range is´nt fine enough, buy a S- band too. Then you can almost read whats written on the can.

Of course one has to have sufficient practice using such equipment. !

When you tune the rain or waves clutter knob too coarse, you´ll see nothing.

With the 2119 x- band I have seen a single Albatros about 3 - 4 miles away. And years ago 1991 -92 I HAVE seen a beercan in the Baltic, with waves about 50 - 80cm high. That was a Kelvin hughes x- band.

Though I have´nt seen a floating container by now, I´ve seen a semi- submerged car at night, off the Brazilian coast some years ago. No idea how it did float, and NO, I could not identify the make. Just the roof was visible at surface. We sunk it, by hitting it at slow speed with the bow.

For Manie I would recommend the new Simrad broadband. They are really worlds ahead of all the other "cheap stuff". Which (as Frosty mentioned) are not worth the box they come in.

Regards
Richard

[Fanie]

Point taken Richard :D Saw it the first post :D


No one have responded to the question, how realistic are the chances of running into a floating container ? I know it has happened, but is it really something to worry about ?

[Manie B]

okay so i am starting to think that you fellas categorize R@ym*r1ne as

all the other "cheap stuff". Which (as Frosty mentioned) are not worth the box they come in.

why is that
overall in general everything cheap (cheap brand name) ????
or poor quality that doesn't last ???
have you guys had bad experiences with it in the past ???
poor or nonexistence service ???

[Crag Cay]

how realistic are the chances of running into a floating container ?

Statistically, for every collision, there must be many more that were near misses (as you can pass either side of them). If a container is 40 feet long (assuming it's square to your course) there must be twice as many pass within 12 yards of you either side, four times as many with 24 yards etc, but curiously I can't ever remember seeing one captured on film from the deck of a small boat.

[wardd]

Point taken Richard :D Saw it the first post :D


No one have responded to the question, how realistic are the chances of running into a floating container ? I know it has happened, but is it really something to worry about ?

not until you run into something

[hoytedow]

Chances of hitting submerged container are directly proportional to you being prosecuted under Murphy's Law. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Damage will be limited to whatever the worst possible outcome is.

[Manie B]

i have just downloaded the Simrad 16 page brochure of the broadband radar

all very impressive

http://www.simrad-yachting.com/Products/Suggested-Systems/Sailboats-0-35-ft/

now the next question is

how does the entire package stand up
i firmly believe that one should stick to ONE BRAND NAME to ensure that everything is matched properly

[Fanie]

Well, the amount of meteors falling on earth in a year is also scary. One hasen't fallen on me (yet, touch wood) and since there is not much one can do about it except maybe worry, I decided not to get the meteor detector :D

I also have heard only of very rare incidences where someone's property was 'hit' by a meteor. You can imagine what damages a piece the size of a brick will do, it will pass right through most boats. The pieces I held in my hand was VERY heavy, I wouldn't even drop it on my foot.

I am of the opinion that the chances of encountering a floating container is somewhat unlikely. Most containers will sink unless there's a boat in one of course :D

If you are going to get a Simrad broadband or whatever, then get one for the right reasons. Tankers, pirates and other boat users looking for beer are way more of a threat.

[hoytedow]

More people are injured every year by fish jumping into boats(Kamikase fish?) than from hitting cargo containers. I would think deadheads cause more hull damage as well.

[apex1]

why is that
overall in general everything cheap (cheap brand name) ????
or poor quality that doesn't last ???
have you guys had bad experiences with it in the past ???
poor or nonexistence service ???

It is not the brand Manie,
it is just not possible to get a clear crisp picture of small targets and a sufficient solution with a small radom and a cheap display and blackbox.
Those toys are ok at night or in heavy fog, to see where is the coastline, or a big target, thats it.
Fishermen worldwide use the better stuff to have a better catch, they watch out for birds by Radar! Where the birds, there´s the fish. That is´nt possible with the average 5000$ toy!

Fanie,

I´m not scared to death, but the possibility to run into a floating container is real. Many circumnavigators report they ran into sleeping whales. But almost half of them are not sure if it really was a whale!?

Of course when you sit at anchorage like Frosty, or do just weekend trips, like 99% of the sailing community, it is much unlikely you will ever see or hit a container (whales neither).

But on passages I would like to be prepared, by a strong boat and by a first class Radar. (that has only one Name btw. Furuno)

Regards
Richard

[Frosty]

1 and 1.5 Kw radars that I have bought at boat shows because I dont want go home without buying anything have been a total waste of money.

A had a Furuno 1720 years ago and that was quite good . I could see the Sampans ( water taxis) travelling around Aberdeen harbour.

The small raydome models Ratheon Apelco was absalute crap and was the one that I had more fun with the box it came in.

The third which I really didnt want but was talked into it by a slimy salesman in a suit that talked posh was a small Furuno. I was assured that "radars have come a long way since then sir" So because I could claim back VAT at the airport (more lies) I bought it.

That was the final nail in the coffin, cheap radars are absalute crap.

And before you ask yes I did know how to set it up, I spent hours trying to tune the last peep out of it.

I mean it kinda worked, I could recognize the harbour wall for instance that was 200yds away.

I dont need a radar any more more as I dont sail at night at 20kts and yes I spend most of my time at the dock (thanks Apex) but that does not mean I hav'nt had my sea time with these worries.

I don't get my information from Practical boat owner, but from real single handed looking into the eyes of death kinda sailing, and to be honest Ive had enough of it.

[mark775]

Frosty, I read what I said in earlier post and it made perfect sence.
In Alaska, where there are, by far, more airplanes per capita than anywhere else, there are bound to be some flying around when they shouldn't. Sometimes these guys make a passage and the fog closes in on them, then they fly close to the water to keep oriented and become a threat to mariners.
They make a good RADAR return but imagine seeing something on your screen for the first time a couple of miles away, plot it, look again and collision is imminent (or so you think). This has happened to me numerous times as I am sometimes in a congested area between multiple over-water air routes. Get a little jumpy from this, then have a bird do the same thing and I defy you to not pucker for, at least, an instant.
As far as odds, I saw one of these when I was a kid off Washington State and perhaps a dozen in Alaska since 1980. Lost cargo is a fact of life in winter Alaska - most of these trailers are taken home and used as storage sheds by someone but some slip by and end up in the world's oceans waiting to sink a sailboater, rare but real danger - always keep a watch and run slower in reduced visability.
37204

37205

37206

37207

37208

37209

37210

37211

37212

Need I go on? (sorry, there's one from my personal porn collection - it was listed under "shipwrecks". Don't look if you are offended by such things)

Hoyt, I once hit a 60cm probably 15m deadhead and it felt and sounded horrible but with no apparent signs of damage (I guessed the length by the fact that after I hit it, it took a full ten seconds to start rising up behind me and rose a full four meters out of the water - only to slip back below the waves for the next guy). I don't think production boats would survive this. A container full of water is a nearly immovable object. I will assume FRP hull failure if I ever hit one at speed. I tried to tow one with my little boat 27 miles. Afraid it would lose an air bubble and sink, I gently towed it negative two miles and gave up.
37215
37216
37217
A few more... That one being salvaged is just how they look in Cook Inlet (silty) water.

[Fanie]

I can see those shoes are going to kick the crap out of your boat if you speed through them :D They fell out of their boxes that's for sure.

The only thing I see that I don't want to encounter while sailing beside the ships is that yellow tipper truck :D left in the center picture.

I just wiped my whole porn collection, had mine under 'Natural Disasters' though. Pity, we could have swapped some ;)

I looked at a container at a customers a couple of days ago. That is one big and heavy piece of iron. For it to float it will have to have floatation material inside. So what I'm saying is that even if all the containers are dunked now, very few of them may (remotely) stay afloat.

Imo you have a better chance of getting hit by lightning. Besides in SA it is law that anything at sea must have a floatation certificate, so I think you can rule containers out.


That damages aboard ships can occur is possible, I can understand that. Show me a picture of a floating container, or, who has encountered a floater ?

[mark775]

Much of Alaska's produce comes by container. Refrigerated containers float.

[Manie B]

:confused:

Durban to Richardsbay
100 nm
against a 4 kn current
very busy shipping lanes
rather lousy sea
its definately an overnighter

i know i am stark raving mad, at best a lunatic
BUT i am not that stoooopid
never will i do it without radar and ais

:rolleyes:

[apex1]

You do´nt need AIS Manie! That is a nice addition, but not a real "must have". Save that money for a better Radar!
IF AIS, then a active one, to be seen by the commercial fleet at least. But thats $$$ again.

Frosty
I was sure you did manage the proper setup, no doubt. And the ability to adjust the apparatus is also not rocket science.
But it just takes a few years (YEARS) of daily routine to read a radar picture and tune it the right way.

Regards
Richard

[Manie B]

just to get some kind of pricing structure going here

this system complete in Raymarine

http://www.simrad-yachting.com/Products/Suggested-Systems/Sailboats-0-35-ft/

will cost me approx. US$ 10 000 in South Africa (ZAR 70 000 from Texwise)

i have put enquiries to the Simrad agent and will see what they come up with

if you guys guess what do you think Furuno (and all the others) would cost

[apex1]

Have no clue Manie about SA prices, but lookup Furunousa to find the prices there.
The Simrad broadband (my recommendation for you) is below 5000$ in EU. And it is apart from having the best resolution of every non commercial equipment, a energy saver!

Regards
Richard

[Sinclair D-R]

apex 1,

May i know the criteriae you retained to recommend this Simrad Broadband model to Manie?
Thanks.

[marshmat]

Simrad "broadband" radar (actually FMCW - frequency modulated continuous wave) is a rather different technology from conventional pulse radar.
Theoretically, it should have much better target definition and noise rejection qualities at close ranges. Also theoretically, it should perform much poorer than pulse radar at long ranges. (The thing's total transmit power is less than that of a handheld cellphone.)
I haven't seen one in action yet, but from what I've heard, they're quite impressive out to a few miles, being able to pick out 6" dia. spar buoys at 50 feet, identifying individual dinghies within a racing fleet a mile away, things like that. The people who have bought them and written about them, so far, don't seem as impressed by the performance beyond four miles or so. Still, if I had the need and the money for a radar, this technology is what I'd want to fit....

[apex1]

Theoretically, it should have much better target definition and noise rejection qualities at close ranges. Also theoretically, it should perform much poorer than pulse radar at long ranges.

Both is true in reality too.

Of course that cannot replace a proper pulse Radar for long range detection. But on a small boat one has a real good alternative. I doubt a 2119 with a 6,5´ antenna fits on Manies boat.

apex 1,
May i know the criteriae you retained to recommend this Simrad Broadband model to Manie?sure, thats no secret.
First the high resolution, high noise suppression, then the very low power consumption. Below 25.000$ you will not find a better Radar picture at low range. That makes it my first choice for small boats. (and even on my 30m boat I like to have one, as a third unit though)
Perfect watchkeeper on small sailboats btw! Nearly now power consumption, and running all night on alarm mode. That sounds sensible.

Regards
Richard

[Sinclair D-R]

Thanks marshmat for the explanation and recommendation.

Motoring @ 12 kt, 4 nm gives you twenty minutes warning before contact with a static object.

Way better than nothing!

[Sinclair D-R]

Richard,

Simrad "broadband" radar:
How long have they been on the market, meaning how dependable are they?

[apex1]

Richard,

Simrad "broadband" radar:
How long have they been on the market, meaning how dependable are they?

Oh dear, that is one of the market leaders in Marine Electronics! The broadband is new though, but the clients reports are really positive.
I would reduce the comparable range to 2,5 miles btw.
Still a good range. More than 60% of your navigation by radar is below that range.

[Fanie]

Personally I like the idea of the closer to boat view, I think one may be able to use it better than a long range radar. One of my concerns is tankers, there seem to be more of them than containers and they move, I doubt they will even know you're there. If a tanker travels at 30kn how much time do you have to get out of it's way ? Six mins ?

[Sinclair D-R]

Richard,

My question referred to "Broad band" radar for leisure marine usage.

On passage making i would have it on alarm mode at all times.

[apex1]

Your worries about tankers seem to be sensible Fanie. Though 30 knots is´nt their speed, more likely 18 to 20kn.
And they do´nt care, even if they see you. No matter day or night, they never do any action for a small boat, they cannot. They would write their name into the ocean by keelwater.

Sinclair that stuff is at the market for less than half a year. I have not actually delivered one boat equipped with it.
And you misunderstand the alarm function I referred to. The common Radar cannot be run all night on small boats, due to power consumption. But a radar is a good anchor watch and intrusion alarm, if set on short distance with the signal switched on.

[Fanie]

Eh Richard, thanks for your input on the thread. I can't give you any points yet, but thanks anyway.

Now I've got to convince Manie to buy two of those jobbies :D Ferruno here has been very expensive, most of the guys buy other brands of echo sounders.

[Fanie]

Though 30 knots is´nt their speed, more likely 18 to 20kn.

Even worse. Now you have to watch them for longer before they sailed past you ;)

[Sinclair D-R]

Fanie,

Head on collision course with A @ 30 kt, B @ 12 kt,
an advance warning range of 2.5 nm as Richard's reference
gives you ~ 4 minutes?
Just enough time to grab your beer and get your abandon-ship bag real close to you.
Or steer off course real quick.

[apex1]

How is your old sailing barge doing 12knots? And how many beer do you grab for leaving the sampan, a whole three month ration?

[masalai]

I had a look at the 'Brisbane' Sanctuary Cove Boat Show in May 2009 and was impressed by the near definition of the simrad and similar brand/badge engineered models of the same machine... New out then and none showing live feed display...

My thinking was more in line with "spotting" a large commercial vessel at 20 knots as many of the modern container & car-transporter vessels and passenger cruise boats do, so I was looking for something that could turn itself on every 5 or 10 minutes, have a look and sound an alarm if something was spotted (anything) or 'sleep' to restart in another 5/10 minutes, and the monochrome LCD Furuno 1623 or 1715 seemed suitable and came as a complete stand alone unit...

Any views on that selection? - - My concern is more coastline and major targets for the occasional night passage (most of my cruising will be daysailing by island hopping...

I feel there is not much one can do about half or almost submerged mid oceanic objects on a night passage but be able to ride up on to/over it rather than "plough into it":D:P:o

Many other recreational/domestic radars suggested a package including a large colour LCD multipurpose screen, where if one part fails you loose all the functions (gps chart, depth, autopilot, video/TV)...

Then I saw an AIS 'radar' display receiver which relies of the VHF transmissions from vessels over 300gross tonnage that provides information on the ship (as per attached brochure and at 220 pounds Sterling is a remarkably good buy as an extra means to help keep watch (not a replacement for good human watch-keeping, in addition to).... (brochure attached - the device just needs an appropriate VHF antenna and a power-supply)

[Frosty]

AIS automatic identification system is as good as a radar for small vessels.

Small vessels cant get the height unless it right at the top of a mast.

For a power boat it works well, it will show track and speed of vessels in your viscinity, they will also see you, never mind your radar strength or your radar reflector its not the same system.

AIS is necessary in the Malaca straits is is necessary by law in Singapore.

You can arrive without it if you submit by fax a plan of your arrival 12 hours before. You can leave without one. You can not move in Singapore waters without one.

If you cant afford one you can rent one form the four main Marinas that you will leave from or arrive to, unless you anchor with the ships to the south anchorage off the "Sisters" and call for Pratique. Not advisable.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/

GPS is a better anchor alarm with minuscule power consumption by comparison.

[Fanie]

That looks like a handy instrument Masalai. The price looks ok as well. Pity you cannot combine it with a radar or broadband radar (for the same price :D)

It will detect other boats with AIS only, so none of the objects visible on the radar is available.

[Manie B]

Jeez Frosty

thanks for the very cool video game

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?level0=100

must be getting old - its better than bikini's - probably overdid it yesterday :D



QUESTION

Is there a site that shows popular "shippng lanes"
you know the busy one's - kinda highways of the seas

[apex1]

The 1715 is a good Radar, when connected to a appropriate (large) open array scanner, no doubt. But thats the crux, it is common practice that they are installed with a small radom antenna, and then it´s technical ability is compromised.
The broadband can live with a smaller antenna in a radom.

The AIS hype is another topic.

It is SENSELESS to have a AIS receiver! It gives you a false feeling of additional safety, when you know the bulkers heading and speed (besides other, often false, info), but you do´nt notice the trawler is ramming you in 2 minutes.
A transceiver is another case, sure. And another 2000$ also. But it gives you only one advantage, you are "seen" by the commercial fleet. Other yachts, Fisherboats etc. do not see you by AIS, they usually do´nt have it. And opposite to the simplest pulse radar, AIS does not make a echo on other vessels screen.
Its a nice Gimmick, and becomes sensible on larger boats.

The ARPA feature is hundred times more value than a AIS.
ARPA or Mini -ARPA (MARPA), is the ability of plotting targets. It can avoid collisions by calculating own speed / course and targets speed and course.

The broadband i´ve seen working just a few weeks ago. It is definetively as good, or better, than a 25.000$ x -band Radar on short distance (below 1 mile)! One has to take into account the quality and size of screen though. The standard 19" on a commercial S- band gives you another picture than the standard 8" or 10" on such a tiny piece. But rainclutter, resolution, discriminating (was that the right term?) targets, all very good. Imho the only apparatus in the 5k$ class worth the money. But, as mentioned, a good picture only up to about 2,5 - 3 miles.

The power consumption is NOT the same as a cell phone! Thats valid for the transmitter only! But you have a screen and a antenna working too! But it is substantially below the pulse Radar. And when you set the screen on standby, the VRM on short distance, you have a perfect night watch, consuming not more than a PC.

The GPS is just a anchor watch, but does´nt see intruders! The broadband does!

The "sleep" modus, is a feature on some Radar models, but I do´nt know which. (I refer to the "sleep, turn the antenna twice, then sleep again" modus)

One main problem we should not forget to mention.
The ability of tuning and interpreting a Radar picture is one thing you have to learn and practice. Even if you have a true motion unit (not common on small boats, requires a Gyro), you have to interprete what happens. On the common head up display you need years of practice to interprete vessels course and speed relative to your own! That is pretty much a task in tight quarters with high traffic. Have some rain, and play the wrong way with the clutter knobs, and you know how it feels when the sweat freezes in your a.s.
Whenever possible, buy a ARPA / MARPA Radar and the sensors necessary!
Then practice in bright sunshine, as much as you can!

You do´nt like to end up like the idiot in the US who hit the rocks, while watching the radar. Asked why he did not see the hughe Rock, he replied; he could´nt look out, he had to watch the radar.

Kindest regards and watch out!
Richard

[apex1]

Manie
QUESTION

Is there a site that shows popular "shippng lanes"
you know the busy one's - kinda highways of the seas
__________________

Yes, here:

http://www.scannernet.nl/Online%20AIS%20DSC.html

the English channel

Enjoy
Richard

[bntii]

So the answer for smallish yachts?

I am sailing a 12m boat.
I have no radar but am looking towards the 1715 unit. In my case the unit would be used with the small 2kw closed antenna.
The ideal is for watch keeping only-not navigation, via the guard zone function when off watch & keeping track of known shipping when seen.
Where I sail fishing craft are seen more than large ships & seem to be the greater danger.
AIS is starting to be sold/hyped by the vendors at the boat shows.

The AIS receivers are cheap enough, you don't see the utility apex?
Assuming the yacht is kitted with radar as well?

[gonzo]

Navigation charts have the lanes indicated

[apex1]

AIS is starting to be sold/hyped by the vendors at the boat shows.

The AIS receivers are cheap enough, you don't see the utility apex?
Assuming the yacht is kitted with radar as well?

No, I do´nt see a big advantage to know where a VLCC goes and when it will arrive! Thats like TV watching.

The active AIS has it´s reasons, as I mentioned above.

[mark775]

There is a lot of good advice coming from Richard. "It is SENSELESS to have a AIS receiver! It gives you a false feeling of additional safety, when you know the bulkers heading and speed (besides other, often false, info), but you do´nt notice the trawler is ramming you in 2 minutes." Someone believing AIS will somehow keep them "safe" will also believe in unicorns. Both are fantasy.
And this: "You do´nt like to end up like the idiot in the US who hit the rocks, while watching the radar. Asked why he did not see the hughe Rock, he replied; he could´nt look out, he had to watch the radar." ...is pretty common.

[marshmat]

The AIS technology itself is much simpler than people often give it credit for. I have no idea why the units are so expensive- probably just markup.

AIS allows ships to share their identification, position, course and speed data over a couple of dedicated VHF channels. It also allows coast stations (ie, traffic control) to monitor this data and to broadcast their own AIS markers- think "virtual buoys".

An AIS does not actually "see" the other ship the way a radar does. It just shows you the other ship's key information, at the position the other ship's GPS (or whatever) is indicating.

Being able to transmit this data yourself may come in handy- at least the VLCC will know you're out there- but it can't be relied upon. Notably, Class B AIS units can only transmit 5 to 10 miles, and will likely be the first to drop off the screen if things get busy.

[bntii]

I understand the over reliance on a piece of gear point being made here.
I believe I differ in my thinking and experience. I present that each piece of information available to the skipper can have value if held in due regard to the native limitations of the gear which supplies it.
I sail on a very low tech boat- heavy reliance on hands on knowledge of shipping and navigation. I pilot with charts and compass and my knowledge of shipping is by seeing it. Offshore a simple GPS.

Is not AIS just one more piece of information?
Why not have it?
The skipper does not have to assume that if AIS 'all clear' is provided that there are not other dangers.

[Manie B]

Big thanks to all for a thread that has turned out to be golden

[gonzo]

Relying on your eyes only and running aground because you refuse to look at the depthsounder would be just as stupid.

[apex1]

>>>>Is not AIS just one more piece of information?
Why not have it?<<<<

Because the info is´nt of high value.

Lets make a example:
the novice learns to fly a airplane. His Cessna 172 has a handful of instruments, and he has a hard time to monitor them and do the flying "by hand" corresponding to the info he gets. The average private pilot gets familiar with that task and remains on that level his entire life.

Now imagine a large airliner cockpit! Our skilled private pilot is absolutely unable to monitor, let alone interprete, what is happening there. But ALL the info given has a substantial value.
He will immediately fail, when confronted with the first request for any proper action.

Practice is the key factor when you load a vessel with electronics!

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

>>>>Is not AIS just one more piece of information?
Why not have it?<<<<

Because the info is´nt of high value.

Lets make a example:
the novice learns to fly a airplane. His Cessna 172 has a handful of instruments, and he has a hard time to monitor them and do the flying "by hand" corresponding to the info he gets. The average private pilot gets familiar with that task and remains on that level his entire life.

Now imagine a large airliner cockpit! Our skilled private pilot is absolutely unable to monitor, let alone interprete, what is happening there. But ALL the info given has a substantial value.
He will immediately fail, when confronted with the first request for any proper action.

Practice is the key factor when you load a vessel with electronics!

Regards
Richard

[Sinclair D-R]

Richard,

Sent you a message yesterday, did you receive it?

Sinclair

[apex1]

Richard,
Sent you a message yesterday, did you receive it?Sinclair

Yes, and replied!

[mark775]

If one is aware that it is partial info, at best, and would not have the opportunity cost of spending that money on something else - like a better RADAR. If EVERY boat were required to have AIS, then some still wouldn't have it, some would break or have a dead battery, weekenders would trust it, and there'd be MORE close incounters or collisions than before. Already, there are classes of fishing vessels required to have tranceivers that turn them off, put them on another boat, etc. to fish in closed areas.
I can't wait until electronics are so good that captains can be "the best there is"- the first time out.

[TeddyDiver]

Already, there are classes of fishing vessels required to have tranceivers that turn them off, put them on another boat, etc. to fish in closed areas.

And above all.. being cautious not reveal their secret booty places ;)

AIS is mainly to give information to coastal controllers, and that was the main reason for legislation forcing ships to have one in some confined ares...

[apex1]

To make that clear again:

My statements are referring to the RECEIVER !!! Not to a fully functional AIS TRANSCEIVER!!!

But again, what would be the benefit to know the target vessel is a HAZ / Cont. of 64.000 tonnes, going to Singapore? Running 22kn, heading 270°.
Are you able to compute a three dimensional picture and a possible point and time of collision in your head? Yeah? Sure? With 18 targets simultaneously? While steering the boat and keeping watch?
Aha...
So why another antenna, more power consumption, more irritation? A standalone AIS receiver is NONSENSE. Period.............

A Transceiver is another game. Connected with a Radar, as usual, it can be very helpful to "see" targets behind obstacles like shorelines. And of course to be "seen" the same way.

In the commercial world there are several important informations making it a valuable assistance. The Hazardous freight can be one, the destination another (though quite often that is not up to date). Seeing in real time a vessel increases / decreases speed, makes his actions more predictable. And so on...

[bntii]

Apex- I may be mistaken on what I was told.
The Icom Rep I spoke with described these AIS systems (receivers) as placing a target icon on the graphic display (chart plotter), and that the display had intuitive information- bearing, speed graphically displayed.

It seemed by his description to be useful way of tracking those targets with this data?

I looked at AIS boxes, ~$500 USD and they each seemed to be configured to be inputs for existing AIS compatible displays on board (chart plotters).

[apex1]

That was a correct info bntii.

But the drawbacks remain the same.

[Submarine Tom]

My resposibilities as a commercial captian are to "use all navigational aids

available to me". That includes radar on a clear, sunny day if it's on board

and servicable. It would seem to me that the use of AIS would be prudent.


The risk, and I believe it to be a substantial one, is to become relient on

any electronic nav aid. Remember, "Eyes and chart" are your primary

means of navigation.

My 2 cents worth.

Tom

[bntii]

Thanks apex.
I don't want to belabor this point but do not fully understand that comparative capabilities of radar and AIS.

In my application of a 2kw radar on a 12 meter sailboat, is it possible that I would get increased range of acquisition for those targets with AIS compared to what my small radar unit might 'see'?

I do take Marks point to heart to put the money in a better radar unit to start BTW!

One thing is certain- for me a radar is going on the boat first and perhaps only.
I sail with a small crew- the wife and I. The real challenge for my boat is watch keeping while doing passages.


Thanks

[Fanie]

Thanks Richard. Some awefull information there. Don't stop please, keep going you're doing well.

[apex1]

Thanks apex.

In my application of a 2kw radar on a 12 meter sailboat, is it possible that I would get increased range of acquisition for those targets with AIS compared to what my small radar unit might 'see'?



Yes!
Due to the fact that VHF has a longer range than the Radar!
In combination with a good Radar the information goes up to a next level! You "see" behind landmass with AIS, or can tell there is a Tug behind the Tanker!
But that again is a hughe risk! You "feel" well informed, and there is a mass of info to digest. You might forget to look out.
Whithout the radar connected, you are in risk to forget the non AIS targets.
Believe me, it is too fascinating to watch all those little ants creeping over your screen, telling you "we bring the shoes to Ghana". When there is only a plotter display (which is often not too reliable), you watch TV.

[bntii]

Thanks

[Fanie]

The risk, and I believe it to be a substantial one, is to become relient on any electronic nav aid. Remember, "Eyes and chart" are your primary means of navigation

I ab so lutely agree !

I think the advantages of the broadband is probably the best for using on small craft.

Most of the equipment with their own large LCD displays seems expensive. I was wondering if it may be possible to buy components, ie then use a PC or lap top for the display, interfacing the information on screen with software... ?

[apex1]

I ab so lutely agree !

I think the advantages of the broadband is probably the best for using on small craft.

Most of the equipment with their own large LCD displays seems expensive. I was wondering if it may be possible to buy components, ie then use a PC or lap top for the display, interfacing the information on screen with software... ?

Completely concur with Tom.

When you buy electronics today they are all network capable. You just must buy the right "standard" NMEA 2000 is one. Navnet another, Furuno (always my first choice--No my only), uses NMEA and fast ethernet!
You Then can connect your main blackbox (where all info comes together) with a standard 19" lcd display.
Samsung has very bright but dimmable ones at low prices. (200€)
Make sure the display can be dimmed to very low brightness, otherwise such a big "lamp" blinds you at night!!!!

[apex1]

Just a update

I found the price for a broadband radar is only 2000$ not 5000!
The smallest AIS / ARPA capable we install, is the 1835 Furuno, and that IS around 5000 or 6000$.

So, I think for a small boat there is not much to argue when the best short range equipment is just 2k.

I do´nt know if they are AIS overlay capable but I think so. Go to the Simrad or Lowrance sites to find that out please.

Regards
Richard

[Fanie]

I found the price for a broadband radar is only 2000$ not 5000!
Man, am I glad we have you on this forum :D It just gets better and better ! :D
That's about R 16 000. Sounds a LOT better than Manie's R 75 000.

If we stick to this thread, will the price come down some more ? :rolleyes:

[Manie B]

Sounds a LOT better than Manie's R 75 000.


be carefull here the R75k is for a complete Raymarine SYSTEM
Radar and AIS
Radio
Tiller pilot
Depth Speed etc plus 2 transponders
even some cables

similar to this

http://www.simrad-yachting.com/Products/Suggested-Systems/Sailboats-0-35-ft/

So in other words the individual COMPONENTS are pricing out more or less the same

MAYOR problem is that it seems the ONLY reliable agent here is for Raymarine = Texwise in Randburg

i have mailed all the others and so far NO REPLIES - bit **** aint it hey - so choice could be limited

[Manie B]

Next Big Question

please guys you must help with this

which of these manufacturers are going to survive the economic meltdown

since i started asking for prices a week ago a have had VERY poor response

yes i know i live in a third world country but the internationals also dont respond
our local agents have probably closed their doors already

so it wont help to buy fantastic technology and there is no service backup, then you might as well have something more older

bit **** if you ask me - at this stage very disapointing

[masalai]

Maybe a bloke known as Manie, hopefully me and a few others beyond that your guess is as good as mine:D:D:D we will all find out in a year or so :D:D:D

[Manie B]

we will all find out in a year or so

hopefully sooner as folks are alerted and start sharing info

[masalai]

Well firstly the US$ needs to become worthless so the citizens of USA will be induced to take revenge on the "NY money manipulators", who stole all their assets and comfy lifestyle...

[TeddyDiver]

yes i know i live in a third world country but the internationals also dont respond
our local agents have probably closed their doors already
so it wont help to buy fantastic technology and there is no service backup,
There are many internet dealers who don't care where you live and who's the local dealer. The only prob might being how the curier/custom deal with the stuff in SA?
http://www.simrad-yachting.com/Store-locator/#http://www.simrad-yachting.com/Store-locator/Online-Stores/United-Kingdom/

[Manie B]

dont wanna get sued or the heavies knocking at my door

but

simrad ok




dont cry and DONT shoot the messenger

[Fanie]

dont wanna get sued or the heavies knocking at my door
What on earth for :confused:

[Manie B]

What on earth for

he he for insulting someones cashflow


ANYWAY HERE IS THE GOOD NEWS

Simrad is alive and well


Hi Manie

We have pleasure in submitting the following quotation for you perusal:



1 X NX40 8” Navstation R15850.00



1 X DX42S-1 24Mile Radar R14300.00

OR

1 X BR24 Broadband Radar R18500.00



1 X TP10 Tiller Pilot R3700.00



1 X TP22 Tiller Pilot R5200.00



1 X HR22 Remote for TP22 R1850.00



1 X RD68 Simrad VHF R3750.00

OR

1 X Explorer 710 Northstar VHF R1550.00



1 X Sailboat VHF Antenna & Bracket R985.00



1 X IS20 Sailboat System R16900.00



1 X Simkit1 R1250.00



I have quoted both Radar options as well as both Tiller Pilots and we sell Northstar which is also part of the Navico group of companies comprising, Simrad, Northstar, Lowrance, Eagle, MX and B&G. Please visit the website at www.northstarnav.com to see the catalogue and specifications etc. We carry most items in stock and delivery is normally 7-10 days from date of order, the above pricing excludes 14% Vat.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate in contacting me.

Regards

Brad


Brad Baker
Workshop Manager
Email: brad@mrad.co.za


Simrad | Northstar | Taiyo | Northrop Grumman

tel: +27 21 559 - 4003
fax: +27 21 559 - 2752

11 Barrow Str
Monte Vista
7460
Cape Town, South Africa

PO Box 12076
N1 City
7463
Cape Town, South Africa
Reg No.: CK 2007067921/23 VAT Reg:4020252401



which means a pretty smart COMPLETE setup with broadband for under ZAR 65 000 = us$ 8 000
WHICH IS FRIKKEN AMAZING FOR SAFFA

[Manie B]

So gents what is the verdict for a set like this

NX40 Navstation
BR24 Broadband
TP22 Tiller pilot
HR22 Remote for TP22
RD68 Simrad VHF
IS20 Sailboat system - depth, speed, temprature, wind speed, wind direction


should work ????

[Manie B]

its all here

http://www.simrad-yachting.com/Products/Navigation-Fishfinding/NX40-Navstation/

[Manie B]

oh dear its late friday afternoon and still not a word from the others

what they say in latin "buyer beware"

[apex1]

Man, am I glad we have you on this forum :D It just gets better and better ! :D I appreciate the cynism, thanks!
That's about R 16 000. Sounds a LOT better than Manie's R 75 000.

If we stick to this thread, will the price come down some more ? :rolleyes:

Sure, maybe the difference is a bit smaller!:D


Manie
when you spend 75.000 on a Simrad system you also have everything included! There is no big difference when you compare the brands. Of course Furuno is always a lot more expensive than the rest. And still cheap, when you compare the quality.
Did you watch the AIS traffic at the Dutch coast? If so, that is about the same picture you´ll get when you have a standalone AIS and plotter.

Which one will survive?

Furuno >marketleader in recreational and commercial applications
Navico >widespread business, thats B&G - Simrad - Lowrance and some minor brands
Raymarine >big and wealthy
JVC >but who buys that?

Another point of general interest:
Do´nt get irritated by the high power rates a pulse radar transmits. A 6kw Radar for example does´nt consume 6kw power!!! More like 800W.
We once installed a new genny on a old museum ship, together with a new rasterscan Radar. The Chief eng. bought a 40KvA genny. When asked why such a monster, he (in all seriousness) replied: just the new Radar alone is 24Kw ! Well, it was, true...........

Regards
Richard
hah..Manie posts faster than I type...

[TeddyDiver]

So gents what is the verdict for a set like this
NX40 Navstation
BR24 Broadband
TP22 Tiller pilot
HR22 Remote for TP22
RD68 Simrad VHF
IS20 Sailboat system - depth, speed, temprature, wind speed, wind direction


GPS antenna and transduser included?? Reckon IS20 contains only the instruments for panel..

[apex1]

Wow Fanie, you´re a lucky bastard are you?
Just looked for Manie how to assemble a proper setup, and found the Lowrance broadband (same as Simrad) goes for 1.699 Dolores Americanes!
Let´s keep the thread alive for another week, maybe they pay you to collect it at the factory..........

Regards
Richard

[Manie B]

Hmmmm

good one

maybe they pay you to collect it at the factory


:idea:
Fanie the invoice is in the mail for research :D

[masalai]

Manie, on your new "Super-yacht" sized boat, do you really need the remote for your autopilot or are you planning to operate it from ashore:?: - - and, And you might need another 20KG of keel ballast in the form of another battery to store the power to run all that new kit...:D It all seems like a good collection...

I think I will stick to Furuno, interconnect-ability but each part is self-contained (not dependant on another product item to perform its designated function)...

[Fanie]

Wow Fanie, you´re a lucky bastard are you?
Just looked for Manie how to assemble a proper setup, and found the Lowrance broadband (same as Simrad) goes for 1.699 Dolores Americanes!
Let´s keep the thread alive for another week, maybe they pay you to collect it at the factory..........

Regards
Richard

Great minds think alike :D :rolleyes: :P

Fanie the invoice is in the mail for research
No need Manie, I help you guys for free ;)


Manie, on your new "Super-yacht" sized boat, do you really need the remote for your autopilot or...

On his way to AU the poor man will have to get a bit of sleep man Mas, don't be like that :D Since you get warned of burglars, containers and mostly anything the size (probably shape too) of a beer can and bigger, auto steering and you can just as well sleep from here to there. Be pretty boring watching the water for 8000km...

[masalai]

I am not talking about the AUTOPILOT, that IS a NECESSITY, - - - - but THE REMOTE (HR22 Remote for TP22) FOR THE autopilot:!::!::!::!::!:

1 X HR22 Remote for TP22 R1850.00 - - - That exclusion means an extra R1850 in beer of wine for the voyage....WTF get your priorities right:!:

[Fanie]

You mean his foot he's going to do any adjustments with while lying in bed ?

[TeddyDiver]

Why not:D New radar keeps watch and just to adjust bearing a bit to get the rolling comfy enough to fall asleep.

[KnottyBuoyz]

Couple pics I snapped in the early 80's of a container we hit with a 2000 tonne icebreaker/buoytender. It was more of the refrigerated tractor trailer type than a modern steel shipping container. We ran to the stern and saw the jars of Cheez Whiz spin up to the surface in the ships wake! :)

IIRC they were of a ship called the Berglund (sp) which was hit off the coast of Cape Breton and sunk. The locals were salvaging those that came ashore till we got word one had radioactive materials aboard. After that they were all quarantined as they came ashore.

[apex1]

Why did´nt you sink it Rick?
Whith an Icebreaker, not a big task.

Regards
Richard

[hoytedow]

Cheese Whiz floats. Oil and such.

[KnottyBuoyz]

Why did´nt you sink it Rick?
Whith an Icebreaker, not a big task.
Well the ole' man took a couple of runs at it! :p

This one was well insulated so it floated. I remember the guys pulling one ashore with frozen (well supposed to be frozen) turkeys. The local hospitals had an inrush of people with stomach ailments a few days later! :P

[mark775]

"Well firstly the US$ needs to become worthless so the citizens of USA will be induced to take revenge on the "NY money manipulators", who stole all their assets and comfy lifestyle..." -MasDMF
Really, Mas, do you need let your personal hurt spill over onto other threads? Speaking of containers, contain thyself! KEEP ON TOPIC.
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