Barnacle Prevention

[JamesG]

Is it possible to prevent barnacles and other marine life from forming on a hull? I found this device online, but do you think it really works?

http://www.brightspark.nl/site/anti_fouling.html

Anti-fouling paint just slows the critters from growing, right?

[Landlubber]

Keep the boat out of the water.

[Submarine Tom]

Keep the boat out of the water.

That's what I was going to say!!

Tom

[JamesG]

That's really creative

[Submarine Tom]

Not really, just common sense.

Tom

[marshmat]

Applying an electric field underwater (as the device in post #1 appears to do) seems like it would cause many headaches over corrosion, and its effect on fouling organisms seems questionable at best without more data.

Conventional anti-fouling paint works by being so heavily laden with toxic substances that nothing wants to live on it. Copper, for example, which is deadly to many aquatic plants.

Recently there have been some new anti-fouling coatings that claim to work by either being so smooth that nothing can grip well enough to not get washed off, or by having such a low surface energy that anything that attempts to bond to it is repelled at the sub-molecular level.

[rwatson]

Some "with and without " photos in the November 09 copy of Australian "Trade a Boat" look very impressive

[JamesG]

Here's the website for the 2b Sure system. http://globalmarinegroup.com.au/2b-sure

I emailed them about it and asked if they wanted to join this discussion. Hopefully they can provide data or proof.

[JamesG]

Some "with and without " photos in the November 09 copy of Australian "Trade a Boat" look very impressive

They sure do! I hope its for real!

[JamesG]

Here's another product from the same company. It puts the boat in a separate water source which is supposedly free of oxygen. No oxygen= no sea life attaching to your boat. http://globalmarinegroup.com.au/boat-bunkers

[globalmarine]

Here's the website for the 2b Sure system. http://globalmarinegroup.com.au/2b-sure

I emailed them about it and asked if they wanted to join this discussion. Hopefully they can provide data or proof.

Hi All,

I'm respoding to an invitation made by a member of your forum. I'm hear to answer some questions that have been asked and comments that I have read.

Please read an extract from the manufacturers document. Should you like to read the full document please contact m and i will happily forward you the full document and help with anyquestions you may require answers to.

extract:
Alternative Anti-Fouling Pigments.
The technical literature recites numerous compounds to which anti-fouling activity has
been assigned.
Typical are - copper resonates
- copper arsenite
- calomel
- copper oxychloride
- basic copper carbonate
- selenium oxide
- copper and zinc selenides
- cuprous cyanide
And numerous arsenic compounds.
In addition, a wide variety of organic compounds have been described and patented as
anti-fouling toxicants.
The use of certain metallo-organic complexes has been widely explored in recent years.
In general, it can be stated of these alternative pigments that few if any are as effective
on a “pound-for pound” basis as a simple copper scale, copper, or cuprous oxide, and
non can presently compete on a “cost-per-pound” per month of effective paint life.
Other Measures
Use of Electric Currents
As we know numerous investigators have suggested the possibility of applying either DCor
AC current to the hull at intermittent intervals, to prevent primary attachment.
* The larval forms of most fouling organisms are remarkably insensitive to DC-current
without intervals.
High-frequency AC-current has also been employed on an experimental scale, with
little success to date.
* Anti-Fouling System by impressed DC-current with intervals is the ultimate solution,
to avoid deposition of calcium, magnesium, and strontium basic salts as an
adherent film (appears to be a limiting factor).
Theory of Anti-Fouling.
Anti-fouling paints (for instance hull-protection of vessels, water inlet systems, etc.) are
active when leaching rates of copper oxide exceed 10 microgram/cm2 per day, which
means that a surface of 1 m2 can be kept clear of biological growth by leaching of
approximately 30 gr. of copper oxide/year.
Marine Fouling/Automatic Electrolytic
Fouling Prevention.
This is an automatic electrolytic process for the prevention of fouling by growth of wiry
type algae, shellfish, mussels, coral and barnacles.
The system is based on the same principle as the use of marine anti-fouling paints where
copper pigments are used for provision of a toxic medium.
It is established that cuprous oxide leached from the paints has a strong toxic action on
growth such as algae, shellfish, barnacles and other growth.
Similar amounts of copper oxide are active in our “2B Sure-System”.
Whereas anti-fouling paints are only active during the period the leaching rate is over the
given quantity, in our “2B Sure-System” cuprous oxides are formed continuously in controlled amounts and similarly the action against growth and developments of algae and shellfish,etc is continuous and controlled.
It would appear that the use of electrolytic red copper as anodes only could have
dangerous consequences.
Corrosion cells can be established when dissolved copper is displaced from solution and
redeposited on steel surfaces.
However, this possibility does NOT and CANNOT occur in the conditions of use since in
the first instance the quantities of copper going into solution are negligibly small and
secondly this copper does NOT remain as dissolved copper, but is immediately oxidized
to copper oxides, which are insoluble.
Both cuprous and cupric oxides are insoluble so that the amount of copper ions in water
is untraceable and far below so called natural levels.
For environmental reasons Aluminium Anodes can be used in combination with Copper
Anodes, because direct current (= DC) dissolution of aluminium alloys results in
formation of “colloidal” solutions and hydrated aluminium oxides or “floc” which is
gelatinous and encapsulates the precipitated copper oxides so that they are removed as
a sludge.
Similarly, “suspended” impurities in the water are removed so that cleaner water is
produced.
Example.
The quantities of copper forced into solution are relatively small for example a water inlet
of 600 m3/hour, we dissolve only 80 kg of copper per year, and that means less than
0,02 ppm or mg/kg of which most of the copper is precipitated and 20 kg of aluminium
per year.
Designs of Automatic Anti-Fouling System are based on type of: - water
- flow rates
-conditions and fouling character but the amounts of copper (Cu) and aluminium (Al) dissolved will be of this relative magnitude.
All immersed steelwork via electrolyte connected to the Cu-and Al-anodes will be fully
cathodically protected and the corrosion rate of allied pipe work down stream reduced by
reduction of dissolved oxygen in solutions and the formation of mixed Fe-Al-oxide
crystals at the steel/pipe surface.
Advantages.
- The system as disigned and developed by , Bright Spark, can be regarded as a
perfectly safe system.
Not only on account of the corrosion dangers, but it will not create any danger for
handling personnel, nor will it give any pollution effect in the effluent.
- The system will need little care and maintenance and with the exception of replacement
of worn anodes (once a year as minimal), will work fully automatically.
- The system is Affordable. Running costs are low, low consumption since the system works at very low voltage.

[Ad Hoc]

Very very interesting research being done at ONR, they have developed a new biomimetic technology called "sharklet" utilising the unique skin of sharks at Uni of Florida, and also at Uni of Washington developed Zwitterionic or mix-charged compounds. These are stable alternating between positive and negative charges.

[apex1]

Sounds logical..............
never seen a shark with barnacles round his head.

[Ad Hoc]

yes, kind of obvious when you think about it...but that is what Prof Brennan thought when he looked at sharks!

[capt vimes]

ad hoc:
you have a link to this 'sharklet'?

i know that sientisct have been trying to mimic sharkskin for centuries... it also has the advantage of reduced frictional drag...

you know that the 'glue' barnacles using to attach them to their substrat is 10 times stronger than any resin we know and use? ;)

[Ad Hoc]

capt.V

I don't have a link..but they guy you want etc is:

Prof Anthony Brennan of University of Florida, using ONR research funding. That should get you most of the way... :)

[capt vimes]

found a good article on it with some images of the actual surface...
http://brennan.mse.ufl.edu/Research/antifouling.html

thanks for the info! ;)

[Ad Hoc]

Thanks for the link :)

[peter radclyffe]

i dont know about that
if you enclose a barnacle in cannabis resin, it will eventually relax, give in & chill out

[peter radclyffe]

ad hoc:
you have a link to this 'sharklet'?

i know that sientisct have been trying to mimic sharkskin for centuries... it also has the advantage of reduced frictional drag...

you know that the 'glue' barnacles using to attach them to their substrat is 10 times stronger than any resin we know and use? ;)
i dont know about that
if you enclose a barnacle in cannabis resin, it will eventually relax, give in & chill out

[Frosty]

A dead barnacle will not give up its grip, they way it attaches itself to a hull is almost a molecular bond, any one who's cleaned off a hull knows that sanding the thing right down is the only way.

It would be more beneficial to the world if we knew how they attached themselves to the hull rather than trying to keep them off it.

[brian eiland]

Sounds logical..............
never seen a shark with barnacles round his head.
Sounds like another observation I heard once, "they had never seen a barnacle on one of those many floating coconuts" :?:

[JamesG]

I emailed Bright Sparks about their electrode anti fouling system (http://www.brightspark.nl/site/anti_fouling.html#principle) and they sent me some research. Hopefully this proves that their system works. If it does I'll probably buy one.

The problem is that the research is written in a different language. Can anybody translate this? I think it might be Dutch.

Oh and its an image so i can just copy and paste it into a translating program.

[Frosty]

Sharks never stop swimming,--ever or they drown. they also have swimming along with them cleaner fish that clean parasites from their skin and even thier teeth.

[Landlubber]

Yep Frosty, keep thge boat moving, regular washing and it will never get barnacles either, but floating coconuts do get barnacles as anyone that has cruised those water can testify to.

[Submarine Tom]

Drydock.

[masalai]

If drydock?, - why keep a boat out of water, Why have a boat, A boat is meant to be afloat else it is not doing what it was built to do, be a boat...

[Frosty]

You mean if its not floating its not a boat?

You got one of them Mass.

[Submarine Tom]

-well then, you're going to have barnacles, take your pick.

[masalai]

Frosty, that is true, it is not a boat yet:!: it is starting to look like one... Bloody 'gurney' will discourage permanent habitat along with ablative copper and other treatment...

[apex1]

Sounds like another observation I heard once, "they had never seen a barnacle on one of those many floating coconuts" :?:

Yeah brian,

sarcasm does´nt travel well on this forum..........:idea:

[CDK]

The problem is that the research is written in a different language. Can anybody translate this? I think it might be Dutch.



Yes it's Dutch and I read it for you. It is a magazine clipping telling the story of a guy who experimented with the system. Scientific content is next to nothing, translation would just waste my time.

Numerous posts on this forum have been written about stray current damaging props, shafts and hulls. And now these guys want you to "invest" $1000 in a black box and two anodes that you are supposed to hang in the water.

Use paint. It doesn't work nearly as good as the sellers want you to believe, but at least it doesn't dissolve your boat.

[Submarine Tom]

Drydock.

Also referred to as a trailer...

-Tom

[Guillermo]

BrightSpark seems to work fine and not only for recreational boating.
I've meet with the guys at METS.
Investing around 1500 euros (one set plus two spare anodes) is said to protect against fouling a 15 m boat for three years, thus saving an interesting sum of money in drydocking and paint, if statement is truth.
I've ordered one set and I'm going to try it in my boat. I'll post here whatever results from the test.
Cheers.

[brian eiland]

Yeah brian,
sarcasm does´nt travel well on this forum.........
That wasn't meant to be a scarcastic remark. Do you just have some sort of problem with some of my submissions to this forum??...or maybe you just carry around this 'attitude' ??

[Submarine Tom]

Or maybe BOTH Brian!

-Tom

[JamesG]

BrightSpark seems to work fine and not only for recreational boating.
I've meet with the guys at METS.
Investing around 1500 euros (one set plus two spare anodes) is said to protect against fouling a 15 m boat for three years, thus saving an interesting sum of money in drydocking and paint, if statement is truth.
I've ordered one set and I'm going to try it in my boat. I'll post here whatever results from the test.
Cheers.

Please do post your results with this system. It is very important for me to know if it works or not.

Thanks!
James

[JamesG]

Yes it's Dutch and I read it for you. It is a magazine clipping telling the story of a guy who experimented with the system. Scientific content is next to nothing, translation would just waste my time.

Numerous posts on this forum have been written about stray current damaging props, shafts and hulls. And now these guys want you to "invest" $1000 in a black box and two anodes that you are supposed to hang in the water.

Use paint. It doesn't work nearly as good as the sellers want you to believe, but at least it doesn't dissolve your boat.

Thanks for reading that for me. I think it still might be a good product for me if it works since painting my 'hull' would not be an option. (its a weird design) even if it corrodes my props it might still be worth it... as long as it actually keeps the barnacles from forming.

[masalai]

I think it is called colloquially, "faith healing"... It only works if and when you believe it works...

[Frosty]

Have barnacles just started to attach themselves to boats then? because they have been doing it round here for a long time.

The Chemist in Pinang said to me that mixing TBT with any paint would be then an antifoul. This is not true and does not work, I tried it, it may work if you were to use some porous paint such as red lead.

Last year I had bits of wood hanging off the dock for months trying out all sorts of old wifes tales. Mixing 10% 20% or 50% TBT with a cheap anti foul does nothing. It was a very exiting experiment until a dick headed Canadian police man let it go to the bottom, --no I don't now why,--- it was above his mental grasp I suppose that some one should want to learn something.

If this electric machine goes wrong, you will have a blob of bronze on the end of your shaft where the propeller was last seen.

If your into way out gadgets and electronic impulses,-- you may want to try playing very loud Rolph Harris records at them, alternatively its paint or scraping like the rest of us.

[farjoe]

Is putting a "sock" on the bottom of your boat whilst moored a possible solution?

I know that this is not applicable for all boats but for small multihulls with lifting daggerboards and rudders it can be fairly easily be deployed.

[Frosty]

I put a sock on my props, yes it works well.

[JamesG]

I put a sock on my props, yes it works well.

That's a great idea! Does ANY sea life grow beneath the sock? Does it need to be a tight mesh? Do you know how it works?

It seems like it might be a matter if sunlight not getting through... or maybe the food source can't get through, so no sea life can survive on the hull...or the baby barnacles can't fit through the mesh?

[apex1]

That wasn't meant to be a scarcastic remark. Do you just have some sort of problem with some of my submissions to this forum??...or maybe you just carry around this 'attitude' ??

Cool down....
Maybe MY comment (which you quoted) was meant to be sarcastic???

[Submarine Tom]

Well now that is a third option I had never considered...

You guys certainly keep me on my toes!

-Tom

[JamesG]

I put a sock on my props, yes it works well.

That's a great idea! Does ANY sea life grow beneath the sock? Does it need to be a tight mesh? Do you know how it works?

It seems like it might be a matter if sunlight not getting through... or maybe the food source can't get through, so no sea life can survive on the hull...or the baby barnacles can't fit through the mesh?

[CDK]

The sock must be marine blue, otherwise it doesn't work.

[JamesG]

The sock must be marine blue, otherwise it doesn't work.

Seriously? I can't tell if you are joking or not.

[masalai]

Lycra type material, (like what they use on those new Olympic swimming costumes), has recently - in rather secretive tests I discovered - been shown to work very well too...

[JamesG]

Lycra type material, (like what they use on those new Olympic swimming costumes), has recently - in rather secretive tests I discovered - been shown to work very well too...

So you put a lycra cover on your hull and the barnacles stick to it? And then when they build up you clean them off or get another lycra cover?

[Pirate MAX]

Hey,
I am a work boat instructor over here in Norway and international....just to let ya know....barnacles are part of owning a boat.....kind of like checking the air on your tires of a car....
there may be product out there the say they will keep them off....But I also win a million dollars once a month from Nigeria to!!!!
sorry dude.....just hope your not around the carribean where you need to clean about once a month

[JamesG]

I'm talking about putting a cover over the hull. The Lycra style swim suit that the Olympic athletes wear is a slippery material. I think someone was trying to say that barnacles won't stick to this material because its too slippery.

I'm talking about a more low tech solution.

I'm just talking about covering the hull with any old material to get the barnacles to stick to that, instead of your hull. Does anybody have experience with that?

[apex1]

Add some 5% hot chilli powder (the REAL hot one) to your antifouling. Thats the cheapest way to slow marine growth down a bit.
That gives a nice contrast to CDK´s navy blue socks as well!

And it was NOT a joke.............

Regards
Richard

[JamesG]

Add some 5% hot chilli powder (the REAL hot one) to your antifouling. Thats the cheapest way to slow marine growth down a bit.
That gives a nice contrast to CDK´s navy blue socks as well!

And it was NOT a joke.............

Regards
Richard

HAHA! That's a definitely home brew idea right there. I like it!

[brian eiland]

The chili pepper idea was mentioned on this subject thread, along with some others that have not been mentioned here yet:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/antifoul-paint-16613-3.html#post174859

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/antifoul-paint-16613.html

[brian eiland]

...and some more antifoul discussions/suggestions/opinions/experiences:

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/5148-running-gear-antifoul.html

[apex1]

HAHA! That's a definitely home brew idea right there. I like it!

No

that is a proven recipe. And has saved me many many thousands of $$$.
But the stuff must be prime quality (ground Habanero´s), due to the high Capsaicin content.

Regards
Richard

[JamesG]

No

that is a proven recipe. And has saved me many many thousands of $$$.
But the stuff must be prime quality (ground Habanero´s), due to the high Capsaicin content.

Regards
Richard

How long have the hot peppers lasted you? Do you still have to scrape from time to time?

It seems like the best thing would be just to cover the hull with material, so that the barnacles attach to that instead of the hull. I read through those other posts and a guy said that works great for props. Just keep it covered then take it off when you use the boat.

There's no way I'm going to use those super dangerous anti-fouling paints. They are really bad for the environment. Some people have gotten really sick and have almost died by being in the water around their boats. TFT is the worst chemical I think, but its outlawed now.

[masalai]

"Some people have gotten really sick and have almost died by being in the water around their boats." is an absolute nonsense, if you are attributing that the cause of death or severe illness was TFT released into the water by the normal ablative process....

[marshmat]

Re. chili peppers:

I seem to recall an article a few years back about some folks who had made a hot sauce that was, in essence, chili peppers reduced down to not much more than pure crystalline capsaicin. The stuff came in at something around sixteen million on the Scoville scale (for comparison: jalapenos are a few thousand, habaneros about a hundred thousand, police mace around five million).

A dab of that ought to take care of your barnacles :D


Re. Danger to people from antifouling

Obviously you shouldn't drink the stuff, but frankly I don't see how enough of it can leach into the water from one boat to kill someone swimming near the boat. Or even to make said person sick.

Tributyltin (TBT) is seriously nasty stuff- after all, the reason it makes good antifouling is that it's good at killing things. From what I understand, it's not particularly stable in aqueous solution, breaking down into less harmful products fairly quickly once it's released from the paint. The concerns about the stuff seem to relate mostly to its tendency to build up in seabed sediment (where it can't break down as easily), thus killing all sorts of plants, shellfish, etc. that live in the sediment.

Copper-based paints aren't terribly friendly either, but again, they're not likely to be harmful to people swimming nearby. Your drinking water pipes are copper, and virtually every swimming pool has copper dissolved in it (as cupric sulphate) as an algaecide.

If you are getting sick from swimming near your boat, the water is obviously polluted somehow. But it's not very likely that your antifouling has anything to do with it. Maybe it's the head. Or maybe unburned fuel from a badly tuned engine. Or maybe it's that factory a hundred miles upstream. Or a bacterial bloom that's sprung up around some farm runoff. There are many, many possibilities....

[Frosty]

I have been very ill after cleaning bottom paint. By that I mean scrubbing and making the water adopt the same color. This is a little more that just scraping.

I am not normally susceptible to allergies etc and it takes a lot to knock me off my feet but feel terribly ill I did.

I asked a friend who does it regularly if he felt ill and he said "why do you think I charge 100 dollars".

If you dry sand it without a mask ---well I don't know Im not a doctor but I would be very ill.

[boat fan]

Marshmat....I seem to recall an article a few years back about some folks who had made a hot sauce that was, in essence, chili peppers reduced down to not much more than pure crystalline capsaicin. The stuff came in at something around sixteen million on the Scoville scale (for comparison: jalapenos are a few thousand, habaneros about a hundred thousand, police mace around five million).

A dab of that ought to take care of your barnacles :D


Would it be too much to ( briefly ) explain what that means ?

I would like to understand on a ( at least basic) level .

[Guillermo]

I've been said by Bright Saprk that their copper cathodes create a very low concentration of coming and going flux of copper ions around the hull which oxidize to cuprous oxide (Cu2O), which afterwards switch into cupric oxide (CuO) which subsecuently degrades into copper salts, unharmful to the environment.

This low harmful behaviour is said to have been tested by the Dutch Institute for Sea Research

Any comentaries?

[capt vimes]

Marshmat....

Would it be too much to ( briefly ) explain what that means ?

I would like to understand on a ( at least basic) level .

i can do that...

capsaicin is the stuff which makes chillis hot - it is the stuff which burns your tounge and mouth...
the scale (Scoville scale) he was talking about is for measuring the 'hotness' of different types of chilli sauces which he gave some examples afterwards...

capsaicin is basically a chemical warfare like defending means for the plant... it gets pretty unhealthy in high dosis... ;)

[boat fan]

Thank you .
Understood.

[apex1]

Re. chili peppers:

I seem to recall an article a few years back about some folks who had made a hot sauce that was, in essence, chili peppers reduced down to not much more than pure crystalline capsaicin. The stuff came in at something around sixteen million on the Scoville scale (for comparison: jalapenos are a few thousand, habaneros about a hundred thousand, police mace around five million).

A dab of that ought to take care of your barnacles :D
.

Thats "The Source" named. Awful stuff! And pure chemical.
But you do´nt need that (and it costs 5000$ kg)

I got the hint from a Mexican fisherman and he used what he had, ground (to flour consistency) Habaneros. Scoville around 250.000.
We mixed it in the "Hempel" antifouling (about 5%) we used these days. The time between renewing the bottom went from 2 to 3 years, that was a success in my opinion (and saved a few $$$ on a 50 meter boat).

RE illness
I never heard one got ill by swimming near antifouling, what a nonsense!
Sanding it off without protection is a different thing of course. But sanding the plain wood can make you sick (just choose the "right" wood).

Regards
Richard

[capt vimes]

i heard of this chilli stuff as anti foul years ago... to live-aboards it is common knowledge...

i am really wondering why a lot of folks in here never heard of it... :confused:

[apex1]

i heard of this chilli stuff as anti foul years ago... to live-aboards it is common knowledge...

i am really wondering why a lot of folks in here never heard of it... :confused:

They do´nt grow Habanero´s in Austria!.............:D

[Guillermo]

If the Habaneros do to the eyes of the barnacles the same thing they did to my tongue and throat, it has to be an excelent antifouling, no doubt! :D

Cheers

[capt vimes]

They do´nt grow Habanero´s in Austria!.............:D

and neither in germany... :p ;)

[Frosty]

Antifoul paint is a different mix from area to area. I know that the stuff made under license probably here in Thailand and Malaysia is different from the European stuff.

As far as swimming near a boat with antifoul, this would not cause illness but if you where to scrub the slime or algea off and the water takes the cloudy ablative antifoul you will absorb that some how through the skin maybe,-- but it does/ will make you feel very ill a few hours after. Symptoms are stiff joints and a sore chest (like flu) it has generally gone by the next morning.

I too was skeptical of that being the cause but a repeat proved that it was . I will never scrub an anti foul boat again.

Using chillies or capsicum has been thought for many years to be a way of anti fouling but as long as we have profit over success being the driving factor we will never move forward at a speed we are capable of.

Teflon --- the non stick frying pan surface has been experimented with years ago. As Non stick, it would appear to be perfect stuff so the barnacles could not stick.

Apparently a paint could not be made that could coat a surface with Teflon. Teflon being Teflon will not stick as nothing will stick to it.

[JamesG]

I'm all for trying the chili pepper paint job!

Also, what about just covering the hull with material while its sitting at the marina?

People say that putting a sock over thier props works great because the barnacles stick to that instead.

[Frosty]

I use a sock. I make them from discarded boom covers or other Sunbrella covers that yachties throw away, my props are 24 inch so the socks are big.

5 Minutes on the sewing machine.

They need to be tight around the blades or the gentle slop or swell will cause the blades to cut through the prop bags (as I call them)

It works a treat 100%, the props are clean. The socks are so fouled I cut them loose and let it drop to the sea bed. Sorry clean Earth people but they are just too heavy you haul out on the dock,--then what do I do with them?

[Guillermo]

Other capsaicin like alternative low toxicity antifouling compounds: sodium benzoate, benzoic acid, tannic acid and zosteric acid.

Another more environmentally friendly possibility:

The bacterium Vibrio alginolyticus, purified from Ulva reticulata produces sulfated polysaccharides metabolites with high potency against larval attachment and metamorphosis of a broad array of marine invertebrates. Sulfated polysaccharides is not only non-toxic but its action is also reversible. It is susceptible to microbial degradation and thus do not bio-accumulate.

In the presence of the agent, larval attachment and metamorphosis of different phyla of fouling invertebrates is specifically disrupted. This effect is not permanent, thus once these organisms drift away, their instinctive settlement behavior commences naturally.

See: http://ledweb.scsio.ac.cn/download/Professor%20Qian/Antifouling%20compounds%20from%20marine%20algae.pdf

Cheers.

[Tiny Turnip]

Have any experiments been made with a thickish, flexible, peelable paint barrier - perhaps silicon or rubberised paint? To work like the sock idea, over the whole hull; not (unduly) toxic, but a sacrificial barrier to be removed relatively easily when it carries too many crusty critters, revealing a nice clean hull underneath?

Possible issues:

getting it sufficiently adhesive not to get ripped off by wave action, but still much easier to remove than chiseling barnacles;

comparative cost with traditional antifouls??

[apex1]

Another more environmentally friendly possibility:

The bacterium Vibrio alginolyticus, purified from Ulva reticulata produces sulfated polysaccharides metabolites with high potency against larval attachment and metamorphosis of a broad array of marine invertebrates. Sulfated polysaccharides is not only non-toxic but its action is also reversible. It is susceptible to microbial degradation and thus do not bio-accumulate.

In the presence of the agent, larval attachment and metamorphosis of different phyla of fouling invertebrates is specifically disrupted. This effect is not permanent, thus once these organisms drift away, their instinctive settlement behavior commences naturally.

See: http://ledweb.scsio.ac.cn/download/Professor%20Qian/Antifouling%20compounds%20from%20marine%20algae.pdf

Cheers.

A very interesting stuff Guillermo! Thanks.

Richard

[hoytedow]

No

that is a proven recipe. And has saved me many many thousands of $$$.
But the stuff must be prime quality (ground Habanero´s), due to the high Capsaicin content.

Regards
RichardThe first time I heard of hot pepper powder as anti-fouling was back in the early 1970's at a little boatyard on the lower Hillsborough River. Those guys swore it worked.

[Frosty]

Have any experiments been made with a thickish, flexible, peelable paint barrier - perhaps silicon or rubberised paint? To work like the sock idea, over the whole hull; not (unduly) toxic, but a sacrificial barrier to be removed relatively easily when it carries too many crusty critters, revealing a nice clean hull underneath?

Possible issues:

getting it sufficiently adhesive not to get ripped off by wave action, but still much easier to remove than chiseling barnacles;

comparative cost with traditional antifouls??

NO,--but you can put the whole boat in a floating sock arrangement.

Its like a floating sausage around the boat that opens for access and there is a huge bag underneath that the boat sits in.

Thinking aloud,---I suppose a tin of glue and a swimming pool or duck pond liner could be made up into something.

Or you can buy a much more expensive floating dock that sits in your marina berth, these are becoming very popular around here. They are made from a PVC like black plastic obviously welded together and are pumped out in minutes by a leaf blower. Very Impressive!!

But if throwing money at boats is not your thing, a scraper and a pair of Speedos is what you will need. Frequent cleaning is far less laborious than a 3 month job.

[Ilan Voyager]

Add some 5% hot chilli powder (the REAL hot one) to your antifouling. Thats the cheapest way to slow marine growth down a bit.
That gives a nice contrast to CDK´s navy blue socks as well!

And it was NOT a joke.............

Regards
Richard

Yes it works...it doesn't last a lot of time, but the capsacine (the active molecule) is a good repellent of marine growth on hulls. Some of us here have a big concern here with heavy metals released over a reef that already in not a perfect health, so alternative solutions not using poisons are looked.

[apex1]

Yes it works...it doesn't last a lot of time, but the capsacine (the active molecule) is a good repellent of marine growth on hulls. Some of us here have a big concern here with heavy metals released over a reef that already in not a perfect health, so alternative solutions not using poisons are looked.

Sure Ilan, you know!
I got the hint from a Mexican Fisherman in the 80ies! And I cannot say how long it remains active, because we mixed it into our antifouling which made it difficult to say if the chilli was still working after, say 18 month. But it made a difference of one year before renewing the antifouling (from 2 to 3 years).

Regards
Richard

[CDK]

Could this be the proper ingredient?

It is a pepper just 1/2" long, incredibly hot. Even after washing your hands any food you touch suddenly tastes peppery.
We got a handful from a friend who got it from a friend etc. and put the seeds in the soil today. Hopefully the crop in the autumn will be enough to paint a 27 ft. hull.

[apex1]

Could this be the proper ingredient?

It is a pepper just 1/2" long, incredibly hot. Even after washing your hands any food you touch suddenly tastes peppery.
We got a handful from a friend who got it from a friend etc. and put the seeds in the soil today. Hopefully the crop in the autumn will be enough to paint a 27 ft. hull.

It is Cornelis.

Grind the entire fruit when dried, but without the stem.

Regards
Richard

[brian eiland]

I can't remember for sure, but it seems to me that polyethylene and polypropylene materials were very good at resisting marine growth? What little accumulated could be power washed off very easy??

I'm thinking of those plastic barrels made of polyethylene and their resistance to marine fouling?

[MatthewDS]

Polyethylene is a thermoplastic, that is, you can't just get a bucket of the stuff and paint it on. It gets formed in sheets, and then heated to make stuff out of.

Polyurea is a tough, flexible high-build coating that would (probably) shed marine life. A good example of this is Sherwin Williams "Envirolastic" line of coatings. The problem with this is that such an industrial coating would be more expensive to apply that simply pulling out your boat more often.

I would also like to second the folks that were suggesting chili powder, I believe that we doubled the life of our bottom paint by adding 1 cup of cayanne pepper per 1 gallon of bottom paint.

[Guillermo]

Something else in the line of repelling larvae:

http://www.gizmag.com/antifouling-barnacle-gene-identified/16061/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=553ddeef85-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email

"Medetomidine is a veterinary medicine that has been shown to prevent barnacle larvae from attaching to ship?s hulls. In cooperation with colleagues at the universities of Turku and Helsinki, Professor Anders Blomberg at the Department of Cell and Molecular Biology at the University of Gothenburg has succeeded in identifying and describing the gene that controls how barnacles sense and react to medetomidine.

When the barnacle cyprid larva encounters a surface containing medetomidine the molecule enters the octopamine receptor in the larva. This makes the larva legs start kicking and it cannot settle to the painted surface. This is a reversible effect that disappears when the larva swims away from the surface so it regains its function and can settle somewhere else.

The results, which are published in the scientific journal Molecular Pharmacology, explain how it is possible to develop an environmentally friendly and effective antifouling paint which instead of killing barnacles acts as a deterrent.

Understanding how the substance works when it binds to the receptor also makes it possible to develop selective agents that only affect barnacles and not other marine organisms, says Professor Blomberg."

[brian eiland]

I believe you fellows misunderstood me.

I was asking about the natural capability of the HDPE plastic 55 gal drums/barrels to resist marine fouling. I believe it has some natural resistance, and what little fouling occurs can be pressure washed off.

True or not??

[michael pierzga]

Its always hard to keep marine growth from adhering to paddle wheel style log transducers . A few years ago a race boat guy stopped by while I was out of the water for an antifoul. He had a spray can of Harken Mc Lube teflon. He suggested spraying the new paddle wheel I was fitting so I did. No anti foul applied . Well, that paddle wheel stays clean and free rotating longer than any product, anti foul, Ive ever used. Give it a try. Make sure your paddle wheel is brand new...no scratches or abrasion on the plastic.

[CDK]

I believe you fellows misunderstood me.

I was asking about the natural capability of the HDPE plastic 55 gal drums/barrels to resist marine fouling. I believe it has some natural resistance, and what little fouling occurs can be pressure washed off.

True or not??

Such barrels are used here in large numbers to mark nurseries. When new the material feels somewhat greasy and it takes longer for marine growth to start, but after a few years they all get beards.

[brian eiland]

....and it takes longer for marine growth to start, but after a few years they all get beards.
Yes I understand that the marine growth can get bigger as it grows on itself, but how tenacious is the original layer attached?...and can that simply be pressure washed off relatively easy?

[CDK]

I think something happens to the surface, but I don't know which animal of plant does that. Fact is that you never find clams or oysters as a first population on PE and PP barrels. But there is some small worm-like creature leaving long hollow trails of calcium that are used by other life forms to adhere to.

Some of the barrels that drift ashore after a storm dry out in the sun and eventually most of the growth disappears, only the dull surface shows which part has been in the water. I guess that if there was no hold for growth, the barrels would rotate and stay relatively clean, but they don't.

[michael pierzga]

...even before the Gribble...the long calc deposits..is the algae. Happens very fast. Gribble seems about 10 days , two weeks, in warm water from observing my tenders bottom. Why algae and marine growth have a hard time getting a good bite on Poly barrels is a good question. Perhaps the angle of sunlight, perhaps the slick plastic surface, perhap its bobbing up and down motion, perhaps surface salinity changes, perhaps surface temperature. The top of 15 percent of my rudder fouls long before the bottom of the boat.

Sooner of latter the poly barrel gets growth, but the chain or rope attchment under the bouy seems to always foul first ? Also..why no, or limited marine growth on the verticle face of a concrete seawall ? Sunlight ? the little creatures get sunburn ?

Why, in gin clear water, is ther no seagrass in the 3 meter depth to shoreline littoral zone ? always clean sandy bottom...then heavy grass at 4 meters till 15 meters ? Why is the aluminiun scrubbrush handle I dropped over the side three years ago still laying on the bottom and still unfouled at 6 meter depth , yet my prop fouls very fast.?

[MikeJohns]

The plastics have a low energy surface. So do silicone based anti fouling coatings which are easier to apply. The idea is you either scrub or haulout and clean every 6 months unless the vessel exceeds around 17 knots then it's self cleaning.

Seagrass stays out of the turbulent wave zone I would think. And your handle is in deeper colder water which is not the habitat of the fouling organisms.

Low surface energy paints are promising.

[sabahcat]

Lanolin has had some mention in Brisbane

The idea for homegrown industrial application of wool grease initially came to Geoff Boyle when he was working in the fishing game. So it’s not surprising a lot of boaties are pretty stuck on the stuff.

The company that runs a fleet of high-speed passenger ferries on Brisbane's Moreton Bay was one of his first customers and quite literally they spray it all over the boat.

"Well you can see there where the lanolin is actually building up over time a real slippery surface. It actually helps the boat go through the water more efficiently so far we've found its saved us about 50 litres a day on fuel. Just from changing to the lanolin you get the same life out of it as anti-fouling. It’s a much better improvement, we've found we use the same amount of lanolin as we did with he anti-foul, with none of the environmental downside, that's right its great for the bay and the Marine Park," Peter Robb, Bay Islands Taxi service said.
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/stories/s263646.htm


Not sure how good it really is

[MikeJohns]

It's like prop coatings old hands always claimed you couldn't beat a good porous bronze boiled in whale oil. Now some use lanoline but I notice the epoxied props with hard antifoul do better to resist fouling later in the season.

People use all manner of concoctions and none of are better than a decent antifouling, and in the colder waters of SE Tassie a lot of people get two years from the cheapest anti foul. The waxes lanolines etc last only 6 months in use and erode too quickly.

[michael pierzga]

Been using wool grease on my props for ever...its the only thing that works. Its even sold as a "marine " product in ships stores. To get the best result take your prop off an bring it to a polishing wheel and polish evey scratch out..make it a piece of jewlerly then mount and wool grease it. Seems any little scratch gives the marine critters a toe hold. I can get a good season, six months tropical water, hign usage, of no foul from a grease job.

I epoxy coat the thruster props..never stays on to long, but the reduced metal mass prolongs the life of its expensive anodes.

[brian eiland]

Lanolin has had some mention in Brisbane

I used some Lanolin cremes for dry skin in the winter, but never on an underwater surface...interesting that it appears to have some good usage history.

Its quite expensive as a hand creme if I remember correctly. Covering a hull would appear to be an expensive proposition??...unless of course the suppy is substantial as down in NZ and Austrailia??

[michael pierzga]

No need to cover a hull...conventional antifoul works great. Antifoul, or any paint just wont stick of the prop for a season....you end up, year after year , spending time and money removing the old paint then putting on new paint that just falls off....best prop solution is wool grease. A jar of grease is enough for a few seasons. cheap

[brian eiland]

... but I notice the epoxied props with hard antifoul do better to resist fouling later in the season...
Epoxied to keep the dis-similar metals in the antifoul away from the metal of the props themselves. The reason most prop and outdrive leg owners should not bottom paint these items.

[apex1]

...even before the Gribble...the long calc deposits..is the algae. Happens very fast. Gribble seems about 10 days , two weeks, in warm water from observing my tenders bottom. Why algae and marine growth have a hard time getting a good bite on Poly barrels is a good question. Perhaps the angle of sunlight, perhaps the slick plastic surface, perhap its bobbing up and down motion, perhaps surface salinity changes, perhaps surface temperature. The top of 15 percent of my rudder fouls long before the bottom of the boat.

Sooner of latter the poly barrel gets growth, but the chain or rope attchment under the bouy seems to always foul first ? Also..why no, or limited marine growth on the verticle face of a concrete seawall ? Sunlight ? the little creatures get sunburn ?

Why, in gin clear water, is ther no seagrass in the 3 meter depth to shoreline littoral zone ? always clean sandy bottom...then heavy grass at 4 meters till 15 meters ? Why is the aluminiun scrubbrush handle I dropped over the side three years ago still laying on the bottom and still unfouled at 6 meter depth , yet my prop fouls very fast.?


That does not fit your claim of 500 thousand miles at sea, layman!

After 9 years on circumnavigating with two different vessels, I can tell you that marine growth does nearly not happen. And adding capsaicine to the antifouling, kept my boats in pristine condition between hauls. I had NO marine growth, for 9 years. But again, a travelling boat is a cheap boat.
You will hardly agree....

Tell us, you bigmouth, what is the cheapest way to get rid of marine growth?

[apex1]

And *********,

it is not worth mentioning! Lanoline...(but how would YOU know)....

[sdowney717]

Also..why no, or limited marine growth on the verticle face of a concrete seawall ? Sunlight ? the little creatures get sunburn ?

Is the concrete a light color??
An old article says barnacles dont like white surfaces
http://books.google.com/books?id=7CcDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=barnacles+speed&source=bl&ots=-Hj1PuxNza&sig=n7kGwTirT3B-i639-AVV7ESaGXo&hl=en&ei=GwXnTO7OCYu2sAP03qWxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=barnacles%20speed&f=false
click the plus to zoom and read

[sabahcat]

I used some Lanolin cremes for dry skin in the winter, but never on an underwater surface...interesting that it appears to have some good usage history.

Its quite expensive as a hand creme if I remember correctly. Covering a hull would appear to be an expensive proposition??...unless of course the suppy is substantial as down in NZ and Austrailia??

It is expensive Brian, compared to conventional antifoulings, but compared to propspeed?

I wouldn't do a hull in it myself, but I thought the idea interesting and environmentally friendly.

[michael pierzga]

Each time a NEW product comes out I give it a try.

Ive gone the" ProPspeed" routine. I works for half a season then unbonds from the prop like just about any paint Ive tried. When you go to remove the old coating, it takes much work and Propspeed is expensive.

This Lanolin ? grease type "Propshield" is effective and expensive.
http://www.propshield-industrial.com/application.htm

This stuff Lanocote, I use for general dissimilar metal bonding and anodized aluminium preservation and it work on the prop just as well as the dedicated products.
http://www.lanocote.com/

The prop paint from Veniziani is widley used, found in every shipstore , not too expensive ,and you get a good season from it. But you have to strip, prime and coat every year.


http://www.venezianiyacht.it/default.asp?ID=3&IDm=5&LNG=1&IDp=125


Something to consider is that this vessel is very high use. It doesn't sit in still fouling water. Perhaps this type of use is also more suitable to a lanoline grease coating . I can see my prop now, the water is very clear, and it look pretty good after 9 months....

[apex1]

And how would you?

*********

Well, dumb nickel, other than you, I have sailed the oceans in the past decades and circumnavigated several times! And that is a proven fact (by other members), where you only can spread your agressive drivel and unproven opinions.

Lanolin can be helpful to some extend on bare metal surfaces, but it disappears pretty soon when the boat is sailed much.

[yellowcat]

if this may help, i am considering blanketing my pontoons. For a cat, i think it is feasable.
Being that most of the time the bigcat is stationnary (but not our prindles and nacras beach cats) , in my case anyway, the membrane confinement creates an equilibrium so that the chemicals don't go into the ocean or lakes or ... food. Then, it is easy to clean or simply remove the tarp and recycle. The anti-foul chemicals (or eco anti-foul) stays longer on the boat.
I would direct rain water into the bag.

[apex1]

if this may help, i am considering blanketing my pontoons. For a cat, i think it is feasable.
Being that most of the time the bigcat is stationnary (but not our prindles and nacras beach cats) , in my case anyway, the membrane confinement creates an equilibrium so that the chemicals don't go into the ocean or lakes or ... food. Then, it is easy to clean or simply remove the tarp and recycle. The anti-foul chemicals (or eco anti-foul) stays longer on the boat.
I would direct rain water into the bag.

A well proven method since ages. Though a bit cumbersome. It can be done as well with mono´s. In our northern Hemisphere we have enough rain, off season, in the tarp, to kill marine growth.

[KDB]

If direct sunlight prevents growth would basking the hull periodically in UV light have the same effect? A sort of underwater tanning bed that you could just park over for a few hours.

[sabahcat]

Well, dumb nickel, other than you, I have sailed the oceans in the past decades and circumnavigated several times! And that is a proven fact (by other members), where you only can spread your agressive drivel and unproven opinions.

Lanolin can be helpful to some extend on bare metal surfaces, but it disappears pretty soon when the boat is sailed much.

You really cant help yourself can you?
You accuse me of being aggressive yet it is you who who is name calling straight up followed by your ePenis posturing as usual

Seek medical help .....you clearly need if for your condition

[apex1]

You really cant help yourself can you?
You accuse me of being aggressive yet it is you who who is name calling straight up followed by your ePenis posturing as usual
Seek medical help .....you clearly need if for your condition


Have you eaten a parrot, *********?

Does it bother you when knowledgeable members contradict your drivel? By so far, your only follower is a amateur with a big mouth and not much to provide. Your opponents are the pro´s and skilled sailors.
So, who should hide, or seek for help?:D

[sabahcat]

Does it bother you when knowledgeable members contradict your drivel? By so far, your only folloer is a amateur with a big mouth and not much to provide. Your opponents are the pro´s and skilled sailors.
So, who should hide, or seek for help?:D

It bothers me that ONE member (that's another name for a dick isn't it) cant make a reply with out being an abusive **** and attempting to belittle people at every opportunity.

I have no issue with contradiction, I do have an issue with the way you deliver it

If you offered your advice in a normal fashion, like other posters manage to daily, there would not be an issue.

The simple fact that you are incapable of doing this is why I believe you have mental issues and ePenis issues.

I did provide links where you can get further diagnosis and help richard, but clearly you have not done anything about it.

I pity the people around you that have to put up with your "displays" in real life

[KDB]

Avast flappin' yer blubber hole yee landlubbin' bilge rat!!!!


Thanks Richard.

Now, unless we want the mods to close down another thread someone say something about barnacle prevention.

For example:
Larvae are thought to assess surfaces based upon their surface texture, chemistry, relative wettability, colour and the presence/absence and composition of a surface biofilm;

So does experence tell you that the unfavored color and texure are smooth and white?
Also, is there a biofilm that will keep them away? like planting onions to keep bugs off of your tomatoes?

[michael pierzga]

On yacht tenders...ribs... I use Harken Hulkote. Slippery stuff...its not antifoul ,but it does allow me to keep a tender in the water too long...say three weeks...and not have any growth that cant be hosed off

[CDK]

A well proven method since ages. Though a bit cumbersome. It can be done as well with mono´s. In our northern Hemisphere we have enough rain, off season, in the tarp, to kill marine growth.

In fact we have so much rain, growth starts to emerge inside the hull on upholstery and timber. With near 100% humidity there is nothing you can do about it. I'm glad they aren't barnacles though.

[Mtnsailor]

2B Sure- seen several ads & comments--What's the real results/ update?

Considering how vigorous and large that barnacles and bio-slimes are in our area of Southeastern USA, I'm dobtful on 2B Sure and any Ultrasonic systems and yet--what's the results over 1+ years? Thanks

[Guillermo]

The 2Bsure's Bright Spark system seems to work fine (I've tested it for several months in our always heavily loaded waters with mussels and barnacles larvae). The only minus from my point of view is to have to mount & dismount the heavy cathodes from the bow and stern, with all the cables laying and connecting fuzz, every time you go in and out for a sail, which is almost daily during my sailing season.

Cheers.

[michael pierzga]

The 2Bsure's Bright Spark system seems to work fine (I've tested it for several months in our always heavily loaded waters with mussels and barnacles larvae). The only minus from my point of view is to have to mount & dismount the heavy cathodes from the bow and stern, with all the cables laying and connecting fuzz, every time you go in and out for a sail, which is almost daily during my sailing season.

Cheers.

I see this system being installed on the dock behind motoryachts to keep their running gear, swim platforms, surface piercing props , trim tabs clean for display under nighttime spot lights. The guys say it works...even discourages growth on the aft facing spotlight lenses..

[Guillermo]

Yes, I think the best idea is Marinas installing the system to protect both pontoons and boats at the same time. That would be a great service to users.

[michael pierzga]

The system seems to protect in a directional shaped beam. The motoryacht next to the magic marine machine is " normal" fouled...the owner of the magic device has a pretty clean set of surface stern drives. The stern drives are about 2 meters from the dock and magic device.

I notice that at night I see no Sepia or barracuda swimming near the device....perhaps it gives them a hangover or indigestion ?..

I wonder how long that magic device lasts before someone unplugs and brings it home ? Nothing lasts long on the waterfront...they just stole a three quarters sheet of 12mm marine ply that i was using to build new tender seats. I had it stored on the dock Opps.....

[Guillermo]

Copper anodes/cathodes may be installed in the fingers, thus protecting the boat(s) between them. The protected zone is more or less ellipsoidal, measuring around 25m long x 8 m wide.

Thieves aside ;), the copper anodes should last for one and a half to two years.

P.S.
Michael: where is that motoryacht?

[michael pierzga]

Mallorca. On monday the electronics company is coming to the boat to install a Simrad AIS. He sells the magic unit, Ill ask him what he thinks and how much it costsa

[yellowcat]

I'd like to know too. An hybrid system is probably the way to go. With limited solar power of course.
On another forum, i am considering a dingy flying hovercraft, you can see those on youtube. On that gismo too i will need to consider fauling, and fowling ... but that i resolved, i live in duck and seagull paradise. AIS is a must for me.

[yellowcat]

michael,
it is probably too later to ask and a "bit" out if this thread, but i am looking to use the same piloting wireless for the dingy-flying-hovercraft as for the "mother cat" , of course there will be an override simple mecanical basic system if the wifi/remote fails, and all that will be remotely controled by android or iphone apps. I am studying what we will be using and will be programming accordingly. This is a late 2012 project and perhaps early to mid 2013.
I see you are going to enjoy an AIS system, smart move !
For your info, i am considering using cameras for 360° vision with either (probably 2) 1,2, 3 small projectors for steering, i can have all the windows on the same image projected on a 100 inch diag. vinyl screen. (of course it is possible to see thru a windshield if the projector(s) fail) This opens to many possibilities, zooming , nightvision, recording, radar giant screen, rain clear vision, you name it. For example, on the dingy on the way back, i can see what is going on at the mothercat with Skype, all that at the touch of a finger. Light, cheap, i use those for my work and it will only get better. I'll bet it would be , if not already, easily done incorporating the AIS into my system. I wonder if Google will see the weather instant forecast possibilities in concert with AIS and land arrival sites videoing.
At one point i wonder if it will be logical to go to all that trouble if one can travel without moving one foot. But i doubt internet and all the wifi will replace a nice very shallow spot where i can surfkite with my friends. I wonder if teleportation will be any fun, not if the receiver runs out of ink ... sort to say. AND, i am still talking about Okoume/epoxy boat and bamboo hybrid bicycles, paradoxal in$'t it !
We should work on getting the barnacles on facebook and leave our hulls alone !
Piracy is one thing that will stop me from exploring certain areas.
Mike

[CDK]

The 2Bsure's Bright Spark system seems to work fine (I've tested it for several months in our always heavily loaded waters with mussels and barnacles larvae). The only minus from my point of view is to have to mount & dismount the heavy cathodes from the bow and stern, with all the cables laying and connecting fuzz, every time you go in and out for a sail, which is almost daily during my sailing season.

Cheers.

Under what conditions (currents, tide) did you test the system?

I did some calculations based on the data supplied by Brightspark, which isn't very generous. The system releases 14 milligrams of copper ions per minute, giving a concentration in the 20x8 meters ellipse of approx. 0.1 mg/ sq.m.
With a tidal current of only 1 knot, this "ion cloud" is displaced 30 meters/min., so the concentration between the electrodes is virtually zero.

My guess is that it only can work in a pond.

[Guillermo]

CDK,
I tested it in a harbour exposed mainly to wind induced currents (sometimes quite strong winds from the NE) as well as tidal currents. Superficial current was cleary visible thanks to the sea debris in suspension, but I didn't measure speed. BrightSaprk claims the system works in 3 knots currents and I know it has been tested in open waters in navigational & oceanographic buoys with good results.

Cheers.

[yellowcat]

I guess in moving waters, i suspect poluted waters ? the addition of a somewhat vacuumed underwater hull "condom" could be a nice add-on. We have a good 3knts current and with lowering tide goes up to 5-6 knots depending on season. But again, my program is 95% stationnary so the "tarp" easy to remove them on a cat, is the way to go. Then again, perhaps a good toxic or not so toxic anti-fouling paint makes sence.
So far, i had good results with teflon (clear) and a copper based. In both salt and fresh waters, but mostly fresh waters with lots of algeas. I understand this system is with dipped anodes.

[Poida]

I searched barnacles on this site but did not come up with anything.

Anyway, a friend of mine was talking about taking his boat out and his speed was restricted due to growths of sea creatures on the hull of his boat.

As such he was winging about them.

After reading problems people have with ice in cold countries, I reminded him he was lucky only putting up with barnacles.

After he asked how they dealt with the problem I advised him one of the ways was agitating the water with air bubbles.

He then pondered the effectiveness of using air bubbles to prevent barnacles from forming on the hull of a boat.

What is the general consensus?

[CDK]

Interesting idea!
I can imagine that it really works: the hull surfaces where water flow is the lowest are the preferred places for barnacle growth.
So it should be part of the infrastructure in a modern marina. Large aquarium pumps creating bubbles in the center of each berth.

[Frosty]

Yeah but you would be antifouling every 6 months even if you didnt go anywhere.

What about the bouancy of the boats above it not to mention the noise for live aboard sleeping.

What about tamerping with the barnacles DNA and make them die, - all of them. I mean what good do they do. What is thier purpose anyway.

[boat fan]

Apparently Flatworms eat them.....Scooter blennys,six line wrasse damsels, and other small fish eat the flatworms ........bigger fish eat the little fish.....all you need to do is train those flatworms to stay put .....:D

[hoytedow]

Barnacles make keel-hauling more effective.

[Angélique]

I searched barnacles on this site but did not come up with anything.

See thread: ‘‘Barnacle Prevention (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/barnacle-prevention-30066.html)’’ check post - #53 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/barnacle-prevention-30066-4.html#post318949) - #57 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/barnacle-prevention-30066-4.html#post320108) - #66 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/barnacle-prevention-30066-5.html#post320367) - but read the whole tread for more tips and evaluations . . . . .

Still miss Richard / Apex1 :(

Cheers,
Angel

[Angélique]

What about asking the Moderator to move this thread to the Materials Forum (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/) or to merge it into the Barnacle Prevention (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/barnacle-prevention-30066.html) thread . . ? ?

Cheers,
Angel

PS - I've flagged this post for the Moderator and asked to look at the suggestion.

[CDK]

What about the bouancy of the boats above it not to mention the noise for live aboard sleeping.



I was thinking about these little green porous blocks they use in an aquarium, just larger. Small bubbles make a soothing sound, like the shrimps and seahorses eating algae during quiet nights at sea.

[Poida]

Well I've learnt a lot from your helpful suggestions.

Frosty, the idea is to prevent the use of antifouling. The boat is penned and no-one is sleeping on board. You must realise this Western Australia there is nowhere to take your boat too.

However you and Boat Fan have given me an idea. Mix the DNA of Barnacles with Flatworm. You end up with Barnacles that eat themselves.

Taking Hoytedows suggestion a little further, I'll suggest he keel hauls his wife armed with a pot scourer.

Another question, would you think that the bursting bubbles at the surface would cause cavitation at the waterline.

[Petros]

small crabs eat barnacles too. Can you create crabs for the purpose of removing barnacles from boat hulls? It would be a totally "green" business, when the crabs get large you harvest them.

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

What about asking the Moderator to move this thread to the Materials Forum (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/) or to merge it into the Barnacle Prevention (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/barnacle-prevention-30066.html) thread . . ? ?

Cheers,
Angel

PS - I've flagged this post for the Moderator and asked to look at the suggestion.
The new thread has now been merged with the previous Barnacle Prevention thread. Thanks for the suggestion.

[realem]

I have just installed an ultrasonic barnacle prevention system. Seems to work just fine. It has been on for several months and no growth on the running gear or bottom.
None on the Knot meter paddle etc

[CDK]

Can you supply more details, like hull material, location and number of transducers?
Some say it is a waste of money, others pertain it is 100% effective.

[sdowney717]

http://louise-harris.suite101.com/new-technology-removes-invasive-species-a113255

works in a 750 foot radius and dissolves the barnacles glue so the growth just falls off the hulls.
that is impressive sounding considering how it works and over such a large area.
So take a fouled ship use this and barnacles are gone.

[yellowcat]

do you have also some teflon or other antifouling ? what wattage are we talking about ?
Interesting, less toxic for the fish ie perhaps us when swing around or eating them.
Right now i am designing in the direction of abstinence, you guessed it right, get the boat out of the water when you can ... i liked the idea of the hull "condom" limiting the toxic exchange with the environment, ultrasonic is a good combo one can stop it when the boat is out and simply wrap the intergrated boatlift posts . This is for shallows and little tides areas. We have 15 ft tides in the areas we like to be for now, but in the shallows in Bahamas it makes sence. Good news.
Mike

[realem]

The hull material is fiberglass and steel. I have a 29 ft boat and have installed two 2 sending units and one power unit. The amp draw is less than 1 amp per hour.
Very easy installation epoxy a nut to the hull, let dry then screw in the sending unit. connect the power unit and done. Running the wires took the longest time.

Mike

[sdowney717]

how much did the setup cost you?

Do you even need bottom paint anymore if this really works?

[realem]

You need bottom paint but can go to a harder paint to save the environment which is what I did. A less ablative paint. The big benefit is the running gear. It is now over 6 months in the water and again I have told my diver not to come. All I have done is brush some scum off the sunny side of the boat with a pad.
The set up was about $875.00 with 2 sending units. I am working on getting a better price for my sailing club which might bring it down to about $790 or 800. Installation was a breeze. Keep in mind my boat in in warm FL waters and I get used to get growth on the running gear in 30 days or less. After 65 days the boat would hardly move.

Mike

[yellowcat]

Hi Mike,
Do you use Teflon base anti-fouling ? this is what is use for my cat , this is in freshwater set up. I like the idea of this system, i guess a whole marina would benefit from this large area effectiveness especially if crisscrossing occurs between many crafts using the same system (i dont know if there are other similar system) , i am planning a 60 ft cat with an aft raft extension of 30 ft on which i will sit my beach cats for daily sailing fun, and at the aft end of the raft, i am planning a floating trampoline beach and jacuzzi. (my wife is simply scared of algeas and fishes even in freshwaters ... ) I was planning to use teflon for algeas, and roll out the beach on the raft every night. That very beach and raft will serve for my kites and windsurfs landings. So this is good news, i will add this system to my kart list. I have been in Delray a few times, i had friends living there in winter and we were planning to leave our beach cats on the beach, you probably know where.
My friend sold his place, he prefered to buy a place in Ocean city NJ for more summer fun at the beach.
We will likely spend time in Ft Lauderdale and the keys, had friends at Sunny Isle marina lots of barnacles there ... The FL West Coast all the way up the panhandle and also the Bahamas will be our playground, shallow waters is great for surfkiting, but near the shores, bugs are a problems, special screens used in developping countries are considered.
For long stays (more than 3 or 4 days) i will consider using a hull "condom" skin, that will prevent if the unit stops and algeas.
Thanks for the insitu infos. I hear that warmer water helps to prevent tigeroysters to stick to ships, they noticed that on ships near warmer water discharge in the great lakes. I guess if one would solar heat the water within the hull skin, i could be another way, now we are cookin ...
Mike

[yellowcat]

would that be good marketing practice if the marinas would install those units ? it would be very cheap for each craft , would save the docks and can certify no shutoff 31.
would even the local gvts subsidise those ? it would reduce the need for toxic ablatives.
750 ft radius area is tremendous ! really that much ?
I met one of my architect school teacher in Dominican Republic airport many years ago, and he was on a mission to save the coral reefs. The concept was to use electricity for favoring growth of the coral reef. Hummm !

[realem]

Hi, Mike, I am very familiar with the Delray Beach and the cat's that are on the beach. One end has the cat's and the other kite Surfing. I suspect that the teflon bottom will help but when you beach it will wear off. The system I installed also prevents some Algeas but you will always get some grass growth where the sun hit boat and the water. The idea is to minimize as much as possible to you can enjoy the water toys and not be a slave to them.

[yellowcat]

Hi Mike,
This is getting more and more interesting, i am designing my interiors with this in mind:
Everything has to have more than one use onboard. This means for example, that all spare rudders, daggerboards, water pillows , anything that can be in the water , can be pretreated with teflon for algeas, and be used for shelving, deck furniture frames, bed frames, and more.The double bottom hull allows for a spare imerged skin, stored in the main hull , simply pull it out aft, unscrew the damaged skin and screw the new skin (all screwing is from inside) and then pump out the water between the subfloor and the skin. The damaged skin can hence be repaired onboard ready to be used for another secondary use. There are few secondary uses possible for that skin.
The Teflon that i use is quick to apply and quick to dry, acetone like stincky so needs well ventilated area when applied.
I had heard of such system before from friends but it didn't seem to catch on.
I still have in mind to incorporate a lift into the structure so that the cat is out of the water for some time, probably about 50% of the time. Hence, the pillars will be treated as well i am wondering if the effect of the system can be felt on the pillars if the hulls are out of the water. Otherwise ablative and "pillar condom" might have to be kept as the eco solution. Lift out will be used in fresh and salt waters. I like the lift system also for limiting chain drag on fragile beds, i also envision a new anchoring system. The chains and anchors will have a secondary use when the cat is cruising. We can expect a cleaner chain now ...

[realem]

Sound like a big project. You can put the system on the pillars and it may get to the boat and treat the pillars. Treating docks has been an alternative use of the units. I hate to say it but it sounds like it is easier to clean the boat and if you keep it out of the water 50% of the time there would be minimal Algeas growing on the bottom.

Mike

[yellowcat]

A 60 ft catamaran, more like a america cup catamaran with sides habitats, twin masts.
Not for crossing oceans but it could do it. The pillar system is the same system we have on our heavy wood docks, 26 years old already ... but the pillars are steel on the docks but on the cat it will be carbon/eglass fiber and nanno metal. Lighter and stronger.
Over a year period, it will be about 50% but a 30% can be inwater at once, in a marina in Ft Lauderdale for example when i go to France . For the algea, i can add a product between the "condom" and the hull . The "condom" is opaque too, so not much will happen in that area. The hulls are 24 inches at the widest and 6'9" at the highest x 60 ft, but in a long term dock slip rental, the cat folds into 32 ft long and 16 ft wide (vs 37 ft wide and 60 ft long) . It is made of 2 central hulls 30 ft long and 4 end hulls 15 ft long.
The ends stay inwater even at folding , they can fold outward for mooring or anchoring ie to get the stuff out, or inward at the marina (for docking) and upward for inspections and quick repairs. At upward mode, the other 2 hulls on the same side will sink a little.

[yellowcat]

Reading the multihull mag , just seen the advertisement for Harsonic , i cant compare with the hullmaster yet. Has to be external on wooden boats, i guess even on composite too.
The best way to get work done is waking up in the middle of the night ... hummm below
0 c (32 f) tonite, time to go back to bed. Nope, the lake is not frozen yet, not much kiting before xmass we need 5 inches of solid blue ice, we are chickens, some go at 3 inches with wetsuites and couple floats. How can we help them ? The hovercraft can do the job but it will crack the ice on its path.
good night