Mining the Great Pacific Garbage Patch

[wellmer]

This is a subtheme of the Thread "Designing a plastic bottle island"

Is the plastic floating out there a suitable resource to mine it, build a floating island, process plastics, and found a business on this in the sense of seasteading?

Let me hear your thoughts...

Cheers,
Wil

[Grant Nelson]

Overall, the area is huge, but the concentration of material is low, 5.1 milligrams per square meter. So processing will require a lot of energy, which could come from the material itself, but if this is going to work someone has to make money, or Bill Gates has to fund it.

Wikipedia info:

In April 2008, Richard Sundance Owen, a building contractor and scuba dive instructor, formed the Environmental Cleanup Coalition to address the issue of the pollution in the North Pacific. ECC is collaborating with other groups to come up with methods to safely remove plastic and persistent organic pollutants from the oceans.[1][26]

The JUNK raft project was a trans-Pacific sailing voyage from June to August 2008 made to highlight the plastic in the patch, organised by the Algalita Marine Research Foundation.[27][28][29]

Project Kaisei is a project to study and cleanup the garbage patch launched in March 2009. In August 2009 two vessels from the project, the New Horizon and the Kaisei, embarked on a voyage to research the patch and determine the feasibility of a commercial scale collection and recycling operation.[30]

The SEAPLEX expedition, a group of graduate students from the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, spent 19 days on the ocean in August researching the garbage patch and its effects on marine life. They took samples and spread awareness of the patch, two steps essential to the beginning of the cleaning-up process.[31]

The Plastiki is a boat building project by David Mayer de Rothschild hoping to highlight cleanup issues and sustainable plastic technologies.

[Tiny Turnip]

it would seem that the processing element of the issue has many variables. even bringing the plastics back to land and processing or burying in a non leaking landfill would probably be preferable to leaving the stuff drifting about the ocean. If there is onboard processing, I wouldnt think there is any advantage in building out of the drifting plastics- a lovely idea but too many difficulties?- build an appropriate vessel/barge and be content with the good it is doing.
But seeing as the natural forces of current, waves, wind have gathered this stuff into an area of the ocean, would it be possible to devise a 'passive' collector, which, once let off the leash in the plastics pool, 'drifted' about, powered by sails/vanes/whatever, and utilising floats, booms, tentacles, whatever, naturally collected the debris? Might such a device even be unmanned?

[Tiny Turnip]

great idea for a thread btw.

[wellmer]

... 5.1 milligrams per square meter.... So processing will require a lot of energy, which could come from the material itself, but if this is going to work someone has to make money,....

looks like we have a paradox - nobody seems to doubt the viability of designing and constructing floating plastic processing industries, cities, ships, boats, and businesses - as long as you can relay on sufficiently large and dense plastic sources. The 100 million tons of plastic floating out there might still not be sufficient, to justify the effort - there is still too much ocean between the (confetti like) plastic pieces - not enough plastic to make it work.

On the other hand there is little chance to clean this up as a "green minded effort" - only "industries that can sustain themselves" can clean a ocean, a continent, or the planet.

- The aluminium and steel recycling industry have cleaned the landscape from alu beer containers and scrap metal in just a few years. - i am optimistic - designing devices to help the ocean currents to concentrate the stuff sufficiently will be the main design effort i assume.

[gonzo]

Have you seen the movie "Zoolander"? In it there is a great idea about a new fashion called "Derelict". Your mining of garbage would be the ideal source of raw materials for this line. Also, the proximitiy of sweat shops would make transportation cheap.

[hoytedow]

Perhaps some kind of baleen filter could sift the plastic, but the cost in destroyed plankton might outweigh the benefits, while starving erstwhile plankton feeders.

[gonzo]

Floating debris is a great habitat for marine life. Some people have an aestetic problem with it though.

[hoytedow]

Ever seen a sea gull with a 6-pack ring around its torso? Ugly.

[gonzo]

Yes I have. However, that is not all that is floating.

[waldoswhere]

Yes there is a problem ...with the floating garbage...but there is a soulution...we can recycle tire and plasctic and get enough oil out and gas torun it self and make pure carbon it would take billions ...warren buffet just put in 35billion ...in the railroads in north amercia and mexico...so why not a fleet of super tankers off shore..

[Submarine Tom]

Willy,

What happened to your c-sub project, did you give up?

Destructive testing too much for you to handle?

Tom

[apex1]

Yes there is a problem ...with the floating garbage...but there is a soulution...we can recycle tire and plasctic and get enough oil out and gas torun it self and make pure carbon it would take billions ....

unfortunately just a dream! When your harvest is 5mg per m² (if you catch 100%), you need 20m² per gram, 20.000 per kg, 20 square km per tonne, 500 square km per day! How will you harvest that? You could collect debris from 2 square km per day thats 100kg raw material = 80 kg med. destillate maximum. To collect the crap you will burn that in 15 minutes.

I replied here:
One must not crack the stuff. If the process stays below 400°C no dioxine and furane is built up.
It can be converted to Diesel fuel of the highest quality. The technology is a low temp. pressureless catalytic depolymerisation. A standard industrial plant, capable of processing 700kg hr is about 5mio US$ and could be installed on a ship. When the input material is plastic and biodegradables only, the output will be around 80 to 85% Diesel fuel.
But!
We are not talking about a garbage dump here! This plastic stuff is smaller than confetti and does not float at the surface.
So, collecting it becomes a real challenge.
When you calculate the density is about 5mg per m² and there are 4 particles in the m² at the points with high density, you have a clue about the task. Then you must not forget, it floats between zero and 10 meters below surface.
To harvest the crap you need to dig through 20 to 40 square km a day and you´ll catch each and everything in that area down to 10 meter depth. You cannot separate the plastic from marine life.
The plant will treat it right, no problem. But you leave a desert behind your ship.
Technically not that big a task, and cost will be reasonable too, but profitable, no. Cost for the process is around 0,23€ per liter Diesel in a landbased plant. (assuming the input material is a homogenous mix, and for free)
A plant on a ship will have about twice the cost min. and the harvest apparatus will need so much energy that you probably produce just enough Diesel to "keep the stack smoking".

Regards
Richard

[waldoswhere]

Willy,

What happened to your c-sub project, did you give up?

Destructive testing too much for you to handle?

Tom

you got the wrong guy tom ...it is waldo (wally) here in mexico

[waldoswhere]

unfortunately just a dream! When your harvest is 5mg per m² (if you catch 100%), you need 20m² per gram, 20.000 per kg, 20 square km per tonne, 500 square km per day! How will you harvest that? You could collect debris from 2 square km per day thats 100kg raw material = 80 kg med. destillate maximum. To collect the crap you will burn that in 15 minutes.

I replied here:
One must not crack the stuff. If the process stays below 400°C no dioxine and furane is built up.
It can be converted to Diesel fuel of the highest quality. The technology is a low temp. pressureless catalytic depolymerisation. A standard industrial plant, capable of processing 700kg hr is about 5mio US$ and could be installed on a ship. When the input material is plastic and biodegradables only, the output will be around 80 to 85% Diesel fuel.
But!
We are not talking about a garbage dump here! This plastic stuff is smaller than confetti and does not float at the surface.
So, collecting it becomes a real challenge.
When you calculate the density is about 5mg per m² and there are 4 particles in the m² at the points with high density, you have a clue about the task. Then you must not forget, it floats between zero and 10 meters below surface.
To harvest the crap you need to dig through 20 to 40 square km a day and you´ll catch each and everything in that area down to 10 meter depth. You cannot separate the plastic from marine life.
The plant will treat it right, no problem. But you leave a desert behind your ship.
Technically not that big a task, and cost will be reasonable too, but profitable, no. Cost for the process is around 0,23€ per liter Diesel in a landbased plant. (assuming the input material is a homogenous mix, and for free)
A plant on a ship will have about twice the cost min. and the harvest apparatus will need so much energy that you probably produce just enough Diesel to "keep the stack smoking".

Regards
Richard

what machine are you talking about ...we are looking at differant machines at this time ...have found a good reactor and have figureed out how to feed it continusly..with no 0 2 in the system we are about readdy to but onee inmexico

[apex1]

>>.with no 0 2 in the system we are about readdy to but onee inmexico<<

can you please say that again in Chinese? I have no clue what you´re talking.

You have one reactor of the technology I´m talking in Mexico. Actually the same manufacturer I use! It is absolutely the same equipment. Pressureless, catalytic, depolimerisation.
You use it there for recycling tires, I know.

Richard

[waldoswhere]

>>.with no 0 2 in the system we are about readdy to but onee inmexico<<

can you please say that again in Chinese? I have no clue what you´re talking.

You have one reactor of the technology I´m talking in Mexico. Actually the same manufacturer I use! It is absolutely the same equipment. Pressureless, catalytic, depolimerisation.
You use it there for recycling tires, I know.

Richard

Richard are you talking about those people in vancouver canada???do you have a machine in operation??we are getting readdy to put one in mexico as far as i know there is none in operation in mexico..and we are looking at several....

wally

[Submarine Tom]

you got the wrong guy tom ...it is waldo (wally) here in mexico

Sorry Wally but I wasn't talking to you my friend.

I call Wellmer (the thread starter) Willy.

Now, do you also have a c-sub project?

Tom

[apex1]

Richard are you talking about those people in vancouver canada???do you have a machine in operation??we are getting readdy to put one in mexico as far as i know there is none in operation in mexico..and we are looking at several....

wally

There is one working in Mexico City since three years. Another in Canada is processing computer scrap (the plastic part), a third one is working in Italy since a few month.

The next on my board is a bigger one, 100 tonnes day, in Istanbul and a second of that size in Izmir.

Regards
Richard

[waldoswhere]

There is one working in Mexico City since three years. Another in Canada is processing computer scrap (the plastic part), a third one is working in Italy since a few month.

The next on my board is a bigger one, 100 tonnes day, in Istanbul and a second of that size in Izmir.

Regards
Richard

the one i have designed or should say from parts of the shelve..i have worked off and on building boats and working in refineries nuclear power houses years ago also commercial fished in alaska...i just took everything avalable with modern tecn....it works the reactor is the big thing ..that makes it all work..and it is simple in fact all of it is simple machinery..what machine are you talking about ....are they all batch systems??? and our does 150--200tns a day with with that it comes out to ...

per ton of tires
644lbs carbon black

[waldoswhere]

There is one working in Mexico City since three years. Another in Canada is processing computer scrap (the plastic part), a third one is working in Italy since a few month.

The next on my board is a bigger one, 100 tonnes day, in Istanbul and a second of that size in Izmir.

Regards
Richard

the one i have designed or should say from parts of the shelve..i have worked off and on building boats and working in refineries nuclear power houses years ago also commercial fished in alaska...i just took everything avalable with modern tecn....it works the reactor is the big thing ..that makes it all work..and it is simple in fact all of it is simple machinery..what machine are you talking about ....are they all batch systems??? and our does 150--200tns a day with with that it comes out to ...

per ton of tires
644lbs carbon black
304lbs of steel
3.20 barrels of high grade oil

wally sutherland

[waldoswhere]

Sorry Wally but I wasn't talking to you my friend.

I call Wellmer (the thread starter) Willy.

Now, do you also have a c-sub project?

Tom

no tom i do not hace a csub do not know what a csub is i take some sort of under water vehicle...but your in i build scale model and design and build full scale boats...am looking for some body ...that does not charge to much or not at is better on a new design i have ...also am looking for working sub that i can build here in our yard for abalone at 20ftms 50ftms ...that is the harvesting of them.....any ideas or designs ..we have virgen steel here in mexico for half the price you pay...

wally

[Submarine Tom]

I would think a diving bell with surface supply air.

Is SCUBA equipment not sufficient?

One could use lift bags and have a tender on the surface collect them as you go.

Not really my forte, but some ideas.

Tom

[apex1]

the one i have designed or should say from parts of the shelve..i have worked off and on building boats and working in refineries nuclear power houses years ago also commercial fished in alaska...i just took everything avalable with modern tecn....it works the reactor is the big thing ..that makes it all work..and it is simple in fact all of it is simple machinery..what machine are you talking about ....are they all batch systems??? and our does 150--200tns a day with with that it comes out to ...

per ton of tires
644lbs carbon black
304lbs of steel
3.20 barrels of high grade oil

wally sutherland

150 tonnes input and 3 barrels oil???

Wally would you be so nice to read my first post on this topic again. Then let me know if we are talking the same language.
The technology I describe here is´nt available off the shelve. The Patent is German, developed at the Uni Tübingen.
With this technique you would get about 35% of the input material (tires) in Diesel. Thats 50 tonnes.

[waldoswhere]

150 tonnes input and 3 barrels oil???

Wally would you be so nice to read my first post on this topic again. Then let me know if we are talking the same language.
The technology I describe here is´nt available off the shelve. The Patent is German, developed at the Uni Tübingen.
With this technique you would get about 35% of the input material (tires) in Diesel. Thats 50 tonnes.

at the fisrt you said that i was useing the same machine that you use buy on e in the usa for 5--6mil.......i need to look at your machine or who ever has the patent how about garbage recyclimg...also what is it you do are you in the construction buisness???the machine that am looking at has had patents since 1937....on the reactor end the rest is easy like all parts are off the shelve ..valves pipein pumps off gas compressors...there is a company that builds all the parts out there is what i meant there is about 100 of these reactors working in north america

[waldoswhere]

150 tonnes input and 3 barrels oil???

Wally would you be so nice to read my first post on this topic again. Then let me know if we are talking the same language.
The technology I describe here is´nt available off the shelve. The Patent is German, developed at the Uni Tübingen.
With this technique you would get about 35% of the input material (tires) in Diesel. Thats 50 tonnes.

also it is 3barrills of oil per one ton of tires you did not read it all plus the cabon black 644lbs per ton of tires ,,,,304lbs of steel per ton of tires...an i hate the fucking chinese

[apex1]

at the fisrt you said that i was useing the same machine that you use buy on e in the usa for 5--6mil.......i need to look at your machine or who ever has the patent how about garbage recyclimg...also what is it you do are you in the construction buisness???the machine that am looking at has had patents since 1937....on the reactor end the rest is easy like all parts are off the shelve ..valves pipein pumps off gas compressors...there is a company that builds all the parts out there is what i meant there is about 100 of these reactors working in north america

Wally the FIRST post I said! Not the last..........:D
And I do not understand your cryptic way of talking sorry. Never I said the technology is available in the USA.
What you are using is old, expensive, inefficient, pressurized, high temp tech. Thats not worth building anymore.
I am talking pressureless, catalytic depolimerisation.
No I´m not in the construction business. My main profession is development. Boatbuilding I do as a hobby more or less. (at present more less)

I said nothing about steel or soot! I said 50 tonnes of finest Diesel, 54ct, chrystal clear, sulfur free Diesel fuel.
And you do´nt get that with your old tech. Neither the 450 liters per ton of tires. You data is wrong! When you back - calculate you will notice.

I would still be interested to know what you tried to tell me here:
>>.with no 0 2 in the system we are about readdy to but onee inmexico<<

[masalai]

On domestic "free-to-air" with lots of commercials TV here in OZ a show on such a problem, identifying Midway Island as being near one of the plastic collection areas - the albatross breeding program is collapsing as the young are fed a mix of plastic pieces and fish until there is no room in the young birds stomach for any more as the plastic stays insitu and the chick dies.... many bird carcases shown with a mass of plastic which would be the cause of death... So sad to see and there is an urgent need for a philanthropist to support removal of this from the surface, to say, a depth of 5 metres below the surface, burn it or whatever but REMOVE IT....

[waldoswhere]

there is no oxegen in the system...so i can pull off all the vapors then coll them ...the part is yes i am readdy to put a machine in here in mexici the impact statement is accepted in all parts of mexico...we have maybe a billion tires to work on ...plus we want to buy and build a fleet of boats to fish off shore deep water 100+ftms of water it is the last virgen for fisheries and it can be fished with substainable yeield...but need a lot of energy manly diesel...just like right now there are a lot of fish boat that can not fish because of the price of fuel 3.20$$$per gallon more or less...this why i picked this part of the world have instant market for the fuel at fair value 1---1.50$$$ per gallon..then i get to put the product on the market and sell it !!!!!!

wally

[apex1]

. So sad to see and there is an urgent need for a philanthropist to support removal of this from the surface, to say, a depth of 5 metres below the surface, burn it or whatever but REMOVE IT....

The Philantropist unfortunately is the only solution to get rid of it yes. And before you send me a mail.......no, I am not!:D



wally,
this:
>>>put the product on the market and sell it<<<
will remain a dream! Or are YOU going to pay the tax too?

[waldoswhere]

The Philantropist unfortunately is the only solution to get rid of it yes. And before you send me a mail.......no, I am not!:D



wally,
this:
>>>put the product on the market and sell it<<<
will remain a dream! Or are YOU going to pay the tax too?

what tax are you talking about ?????

[waldoswhere]

what tax are you talking about ?????

also what machine is it that you are selling is it a secret.we are looking for the latest tecno

[gonzo]

How do you get sulfur free diesel from tires? The rubber is vulcanized with sulfur. Does the process remove it and then what sulfur compound do you end up with?

[apex1]

We do´nt Gonzo. Washing the product (Diesel) is part of the process. Much of the sulfur is bound to the catalyzer where it can be separated from in a pure form. The sulfur content in todays tires btw. is´nt as high as it was. Much of the rubber is replaced by "plastic".
Do´nt have the analyzis of the Mexican plant. And thats not my business anyway, I´m developing, financing and building the plants, I do´nt operate them.


Wally
I do´nt reply further on your questions, sorry.
There is no "Machine" that is a plant with a lot of technology. No, that is not a secret.
And I do not sell such stuff!!!
Read my first post on topic as I requested several times now!
The tech. you obviously are going to use is mainly a "Fischer Tropsch" plant. That is NOT pressureless, is NOT catalytic, and is NOT low temperature, so, Not what I mentioned.
I was talking........ah.. read the post...
That technology IS the latest and most efficient on the market.

Regards
Richard

[waldoswhere]

We do´nt Gonzo. Washing the product (Diesel) is part of the process. Much of the sulfur is bound to the catalyzer where it can be separated from in a pure form. The sulfur content in todays tires btw. is´nt as high as it was. Much of the rubber is replaced by "plastic".
Do´nt have the analyzis of the Mexican plant. And thats not my business anyway, I´m developing, financing and building the plants, I do´nt operate them.


Wally
I do´nt reply further on your questions, sorry.
There is no "Machine" that is a plant with a lot of technology. No, that is not a secret.
And I do not sell such stuff!!!
Read my first post on topic as I requested several times now!
The tech. you obviously are going to use is mainly a "Fischer Tropsch" plant. That is NOT pressureless, is NOT catalytic, and is NOT low temperature, so, Not what I mentioned.
I was talking........ah.. read the post...
That technology IS the latest and most efficient on the market.

Regards
Richard

can not find the post when did you post it???

[waldoswhere]

We do´nt Gonzo. Washing the product (Diesel) is part of the process. Much of the sulfur is bound to the catalyzer where it can be separated from in a pure form. The sulfur content in todays tires btw. is´nt as high as it was. Much of the rubber is replaced by "plastic".
Do´nt have the analyzis of the Mexican plant. And thats not my business anyway, I´m developing, financing and building the plants, I do´nt operate them.


Wally
I do´nt reply further on your questions, sorry.
There is no "Machine" that is a plant with a lot of technology. No, that is not a secret.
And I do not sell such stuff!!!
Read my first post on topic as I requested several times now!
The tech. you obviously are going to use is mainly a "Fischer Tropsch" plant. That is NOT pressureless, is NOT catalytic, and is NOT low temperature, so, Not what I mentioned.
I was talking........ah.. read the post...
That technology IS the latest and most efficient on the market.

Regards
Richard

our system is under vaccum low temp and uses a catalyist...what is the name of the machine that is all i was asking for so the i could look at system

[waldoswhere]

richard...have you heard of him hessische industriemulle.....gmbh and h&h umvelt
azobia missions skoda klatovy wayss %freytag are they recycling and what tec are they using

wally

[apex1]

our system is under vaccum low temp and uses a catalyist...what is the name of the machine that is all i was asking for so the i could look at system

Are you nuts??????????????

There is no MACHINE

no MACHINE

you know?
We are talking about a technology, not a off the shelve play station.

And you cannot find my FIRST post in this thread?

let me help you: go back to the first page here (click the 1), then read all the content until the user name apex1 appears. That is the right one!

No I do´nt know the companies you named (at least not personally), except Wayss & Freitag which is a large constructor.

How does your statement >>low temp, vacuum, catalyst<<< fit with your former statement, that you use technology developed in the 30ies?
Right it does´nt! The former is developed a few years ago, the latter is "Fischer Tropsch", a old hat and not profitable. And FT would never give you a 90% product output, according to your "calculation".
I´ll tell you what: you have NO clue!

To the tax mentioned: in Mexico, as in almost all countries, you have to pay a mineral oil, or fuel oil tax! Add that to your resale price (which was a premature dream anyway) and you´ll be surprised how competitive you´ll end up.
again: NO clue..............

[waldoswhere]

Are you nuts??????????????

There is no MACHINE

no MACHINE

you know?
We are talking about a technology, not a off the shelve play station.

And you cannot find my FIRST post in this thread?

let me help you: go back to the first page here (click the 1), then read all the content until the user name apex1 appears. That is the right one!

No I do´nt know the companies you named (at least not personally), except Wayss & Freitag which is a large constructor.

i read that... were is the technolgy at then you say this tec is built who builds this piece of technology then is it avalable??? to purchase??

[masalai]

I think lost-wally is a USAnian? lost some marbles too?

[apex1]

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/mining-great-pacific-garbage-patch-30064-3.html#post315216click this, read the last sentence in the first chapter.

I build it (when I like the workload). You may send me a enquiry with the necessary data about the input material via e mail. (just click my name)
I´ll let you know if I am interested or not.

[gonzo]

Let's just throw the tires in the fireplace and burn them. We can then rake the metal leftover and sell it for scrap

[hoytedow]

I think lost-wally is a USAnian? lost some marbles too?
Mas, no need to get snitty!

[hoytedow]

Let's just throw the tires in the fireplace and burn them. We can then rake the metal leftover and sell it for scrap
Put a boiler over it and generate power at the same time.

[hoytedow]

Put gutters under the fireplace as a lot of liquid chemicals will be collectible. Make sure someone you don't like is downwind.

[masalai]

Did someone say there was some gold in sea water:?: - - How much and how does one extract it... :!: :?:

[hoytedow]

Gold from the Sea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Written by Timothy McNulty
Copyright 1994

[hoytedow]

That's REAL gold, not albatross eradicater.

[masalai]

I cant go to a library, they might arrest me? - is there anything on the web?

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to hoytedow again." - - I tried:D:D

[hoytedow]

McNulty piece is on the web. That is where I found it.

[hoytedow]

Type this and hit search.: gold concentration in seawater


goldfever.com/gold_sea.htm

[masalai]

hoytedow,
Thank you very much - seems recovery is very much in the realm of pipe dreams and other imaginary projects:D:D:D 15ppt...

[hoytedow]

Most welcome.

[hoytedow]

I wonder if AuCl is good on potato chips?

[masalai]

If you use "sea salt" then you have it now as 15 parts per TRILLION...? or less? If you use salt from "land mines" anything is possible and could be bad...

[gonzo]

Get an old dinghy. Find an old broomstick. Attach a wire coat hanger to the end of it with duck tape. Put a pantyhose on the coat hanger. Go fishing for plastic.