looking for a modern-classical sailboat design to build

[luizebs]

Does anyone have any suggestion?

I am looking for something:
1- smaller than 30 feet, so that it is not too expensive
2- Weekender, spartan cabin, but able to sleep and basic cooking, and with a porta potti
3- Big cockpit (so that a couple can sleep at night under a tent)
4- Reasonable performance (specially in light winds)
5- Seaworthiness for small coastal cruise (max 70nm)
6- Beautiful, traditional looking, but modern design under the hood (should I say, below the water line?)


If anyone knows a good project to amateur building, please let me know...

I initially though about Nigel Irens "Roxane" or Romilly, but I did not get any reply (emailed him some time ago...)

Also I am not finding the Antonio Dias site... Does anyone know the correct link? (He has an interesting Annabelle, but I would like to check if he has something a little bit bigger)


Thanks a lot

[Chris Ostlind]

Help yourself to the work of my friend, John Welsford.

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/

If the right boat for you does not already exist in his portfolio, John is always happy to produce something new, or to modify an existing design, that will fit the bill and his work in that regard is very reasonable. His Penguin design looks to be very nicely aimed at your interests.

John's knowledge is expansive and he's one of the nicest guys you will ever meet.

[Tad]

It might be something like one of these....
37095

37096

37097

[luizebs]

Yes, this is what I was looking for...

Is there anyone built already?

How does she performs in light winds?

Could you send me pictures?

How much would be the costs for the complete plans (and the study plans)?

(I prefer the first two boats, as I am not a big fan of double enders)

[BobBill]

Could be anything. You build or contract? Lots of choices.

[boat fan]

Boat Type: Modified Shields One Design.

[luizebs]

Could be anything. You build or contract? Lots of choices.

I will contract a professional carpenter to build.

The building location is free (dont have to pay for the rent), and most of the tools are provided (also free)

A carpenter labor is not as expensive as it is in other countries (I will probably have to pay something around 1500-2000 dollars each month)

I am still very much undecided about which boat to build...

Presto was one of those that I am considering, although I think the carbon masts would be expensive to build, right? Does it require curing in autoclaves or such? Or just simple ambient temperature lamination? (Sorry for my ignorance)


Another question:
I have been looking at several plans available for building, most of them mention 1500 to 2500 hours to build. Would that be also applied to the situation where I hire a professional carpenter? That would correspond to about 10 months of building... Is that right?

[apex1]

When you go for the max. length you posted above (30´), then 2000 hrs might be not enough! If there is only one man building the boat, he will never do that in one year!!!
The estimations coming with stock plans are almost always too optimistic.

A carpenter would NOT be my choice to hire. A boatbuilder should be not much more in cost, but has the skills you need. Carpenters build more often than not, worse boats than amateurs! They just know too much, unfortunately the wrong stuff.

You must not cure a carbon mast in a autoklave, but you should not build one also. When you have no practice with such material, the chance to make a expensive mess is rather large. Buy a standard alu rigg instead.

[frank smith]

When you go for the max. length you posted above (30´), then 2000 hrs might be not enough! If there is only one man building the boat, he will never do that in one year!!!
The estimations coming with stock plans are almost always too optimistic.

A carpenter would NOT be my choice to hire. A boatbuilder should be not much more in cost, but has the skills you need. Carpenters build more often than not, worse boats than amateurs! They just know too much, unfortunately the wrong stuff.

You must not cure a carbon mast in a autoklave, but you should not build one also. When you have no practice with such material, the chance to make a expensive mess is rather large. Buy a standard alu rigg instead.

Now you are on to disrespecting the carpenters . What the matter you dont have enough work to do ?

[alan white]

Right that it would be better to hire a boatbuilder. Wrong in my experience that a carpenter would build a worse boat than an amateur. I am a finish carpenter by trade, since 40 years ago. Moving into boatbuilding and boat rebuilding was a cinch for me. Basically, you need to make a shape out of wood and you know exactly what tools to use and your eye does not err in following a line or guaging how much english to apply to the plane or the rasp, always knowing intuitively when to stop, when to shift processes.
Not all carpenters are fine finish men. Many are framers only, built for power rather than finesse. None of these would apply to a boatbuilding job, I think.
Find someone who builds fancy stairs if no boatbuilder is available.

[luizebs]

Sorry, when I said "carpenter" I really meant a boatbuilder (or a navel carpenter)

English is not my mother language, and I though I could use the word carpenter or naval carpenter...

So you guys think a boatbuilder would not be able to complete a boat (forgetting about rigging and hydraulics installations) in 2 months?

(strip planking, spartan installations inside the cabin, with only berths and a porta-potti)

Do you think this 2months building time is completely out of reality, even for a professional?

Thanks a lot

[Steve W]

To keep the cost down you may find that starting with an old Soling or Etchells that is no longer competative might give you a good head start,both could be modified with a different transom and cuddy cabin,teak decks, dark paint job etc.Someone in the US made a very attractive daysailer out of an old Pearson Triton.Old solings are a dime a dozen in the US.
Steve.

[apex1]

Sorry, when I said "carpenter" I really meant a boatbuilder (or a navel carpenter)

That would be a shipwright or boatbuilder then..

So you guys think a boatbuilder would not be able to complete a boat (forgetting about rigging and hydraulics installations) in 2 months?

(strip planking, spartan installations inside the cabin, with only berths and a porta-potti)
Do you think this 2months building time is completely out of reality, even for a professional?
Thanks a lot

For a completed boat (ready to sail) in that range 12 month are out of reality.
So, you may assume 2 month maybe enough to get the building prepared to start, not much more. When it is done in a yard, with every tool available, you may get the bare hull done in 2 month. But even in a yard, one man is not finished after one year with a 30´ boat.

Regards
Richard

Now you are on to disrespecting the carpenters .

what do YOU know about boatbuilding? right...nothing..

[gonzo]

In North Carolina the usual build time for a Sport fisherman of around 57' is nine months.

[frank smith]

Regards
Richard



what do YOU know about boatbuilding? right...nothing..

Richard , at least I know what I dont know . You on the other hand seem to enjoy displaying your ignorance . You are like a turkey strutting all around .

[frank smith]

So, you may assume 2 month maybe enough to get the building prepared to start, not much more. When it is done in a yard, with every tool available, you may get the bare hull done in 2 month.
Regards
Richard



what do YOU know about boatbuilding? right...nothing..

2 months to clean a boat shed ? Have you been drinking dear boy ?

[Gilbert]

luizebs,
Why not consider the 26 foot Thunderbird. It is a great sailer and is very popular in many places around the world.

www.thunderbirdsailing.org

[Tad]

A 3000 pound, 28' boat similar to the sketches I posted above will require 350-400 man hours just to complete the design.

Construction hours for a finely finished 3000 pound boat will range from 750 (very good going with highly experienced and fast people) to 1875 for super fussy and intricate construction (cold-molded multi-layer lamination) to the highest yacht levels.

Which is why folks go and buy a http://www.classic-boats.com/tofinou-95m-page-1.php

[frank smith]

You should not assume your habits to be found in others!

And of course YOU might be fine with cleaning up your mess before you could start building. And maybe YOU would need two month´s, who knows.

Boatbuilders understand my statement in a different way than you though.
(sure YOU do´nt know how)

And I doubt YOU would be able to start building the hull of a 30´ within 2 month after deciding the design..............

More of your same ignorance ,. Or maybe you are just haveing fun , Childish fun of an old man . Or maybe you are French .

[frank smith]

A 3000 pound, 28' boat similar to the sketches I posted above will require 350-400 man hours just to complete the design.

Construction hours for a finely finished 3000 pound boat will range from 750 (very good going with highly experienced and fast people) to 1875 for super fussy and intricate construction (cold-molded multi-layer lamination) to the highest yacht levels.

Which is why folks go and buy a http://www.classic-boats.com/tofinou-95m-page-1.php

He has given no indication of which design he would like to build , so who can say . This is all very nebulous at this point , is useful only for arguments , and I am to old to for that.

Just out of curiosity , does any one know how long it took to build a Hinkley
Southwester at the peak of production .

[Tad]

does any one know how long it took to build a Hinkley Southwester at the peak of production .

Hinckley Sou'Wester 42' = 9500 MH
Hinckley Sou'Wester 51' = 15,500 MH

[frank smith]

Bigmouth

YOU call ME ignorant?

I build more boats every month than you probably will sail in your entire life.

such a busy man . Where do you get the time to bother with me? :P

[frank smith]

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/10/26/1193402710_6262.jpg

Richard , you look marvelous .

[dskira]

When you go for the max. length you posted above (30´), then 2000 hrs might be not enough! If there is only one man building the boat, he will never do that in one year!!!
The estimations coming with stock plans are almost always too optimistic.

A carpenter would NOT be my choice to hire. A boatbuilder should be not much more in cost, but has the skills you need. Carpenters build more often than not, worse boats than amateurs! They just know too much, unfortunately the wrong stuff.

You must not cure a carbon mast in a autoklave, but you should not build one also. When you have no practice with such material, the chance to make a expensive mess is rather large. Buy a standard alu rigg instead.

I agree with this assessment. The carpenter are use to square construction and hadling classical joint work.
The boat builder need to have a wide spectrum od knoweldge in beveling, unusual shape, and sometime steaming, or laminating.
As for the mast in Brazil? wood absolutly.
As for Frank Smith, what the beef? You seams to have a problem with opinion from professional. Your answer was wrong. Just explain your point of view, don't dimiss and run away. You have opinions we respect them.
Would you like to have the picture of a bird everytime you post? Of course not. So don't do it.
Cheers
Daniel

[frank smith]

Daniel , No beef , I just find Richards manner to a little rude . He is also ignorant as to what a real carpenter dose and can do . Lets demystify this boat building stuff and get real. Regular people have been designing and building boats for thousands of years . This is is not a new or overly complext craft . There are a bunch of people out there doing it right now . If I decide to design and build a boat it might be a disaster , but then it might be a total success.

Now what about this thread ? Does it make any sense at all ? The guy might want to build a plywood sharpie or a cold molded high end beauty . What ?

Regards Frank

[frank smith]

Daniel, I shall put the question to you. How long would it take for a shop to get ready to build a thirty foot boat ? I'll bet that right now in Maine it would take
about two hours . Is that the right answer or, am I wrong . Or am I being a inane turkey.

Regards Frank

[dskira]

Daniel , No beef , I just find Richards manner to a little rude . He is also ignorant as to what a real carpenter dose and can do . Lets demystify this boat building stuff and get real. Regular people have been designing and building boats for thousands of years . This is is not a new or overly complext craft . There are a bunch of people out there doing it right now . If I decide to design and build a boat it might be a disaster , but then it might be a total success.

Now what about this thread ? Does it make any sense at all ? The guy might want to build a plywood sharpie or a cold molded high end beauty . What ?

Regards Frank

Richard is a consumate professional, who deal with carpenters and boat builder, since he is working with both trade.
His realisation speak for themself, and gave him the right to his opinion.
I am by trade what we call, beside a naval architect, a marine carpenter (with a liscense) so I know what he is talking about. It is not derogative, it is the result of his experience and knoweldge.
And last about Richard, he tell what he think, engage with him a constructive discussion. He knows a lot, and when doesn't know he ask.
Try, it worth it.
Cheers
Daniel