Designing a plastic bottle island/floating platform

[JamesG]

I'm interested in building a floating island/floating platform out of plastic bottles and would like to get ideas on how to make it sea worthy. A plastic bottle island is just what it sounds like. The flotation comes from many plastic bottles and there is some basic platform on top of the bottles. On top of the platform is usually dirt and plants and... you guessed it, even a small house! This should be a fun project. The basic goal is to design a sea worthy plastic bottle island.

Click HERE (http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=spiral+island) to see other plastic bottle islands.

The point of building this island is purely for fun. :)

I'd like to figure out a way to make it seaworthy, so it can actually go on the ocean.

:idea: Challenge #1-
Use only free and discarded materials if possible. (plastic bottles, old fishing/cargo nets, old lumbar/drift wood, and cheap or free means of propulsion (old car diesel engines, sails, wind powered propellers (yes they exist), wave power, etc.) The more practical the better.

:idea: Challenge #2-
Design it to be sea worthy. I think it should either be flexible overall or rigid and semi-submersible.

:idea: Challenge #3-
Figure out HOW/IF it needs to be registered. I've looked into this, but its a tuff thing to figure out! I guess that would be a topic for another post, but I would sure like to hear any opinions on this. It might be best for registration purposes for the island to be un-powered and have a separate vessel pull/push it. The powered vessel would be registered. The un-powered island hopefully wouldn't require registration.

Remember, this project is based on fun, so let's get creative! :)

[PAR]

Floating yes, sea worthy is out, so that leaves item one and three. Item one is fairly easy and likely could be donated without having to go through a bunch of leg work. A land fill may actually pay you to remove the darn things. This brings you to 3, the one that will cause you to go bald. You'll have to have some sort of registration, self propelled or not.

California is pissy enough to want a few studies done on the long term immersion of "said bottles" to see if out gassing might make seals fart more often or something. In any case, the usual course of action when a government is faced with this type of thing, is to tie you up in legal battles for as long as possible, in an effort to dissuade you, frankly, just out money you, until you're bankrupt or loose interest. No, it's not right, but it is "business" and an effective tool for what they will feel is a "weirdo trying something funny". Try Mexico, where the air's warm, the beer cheap and the regulations are lax . . .

[Submarine Tom]

Fun project. I'm thinking invert the bottles and contain them in bundles of

similar size and shape. I would agree that seaworthy is probably out but

tied or appropriately anchoured should be okay. Over time, the flexing will

cause fatigue but if you frame it adaquately you should get good life out of

it. It's not a bad time to do this as the price of used plastic fell with the

recession/depression. You'll want to keep the bottles out of the light to

avoid UV degradation, this will be important. Your bundle containment

may serve this purpose. One of your larger risks will be your floatation

shifting resulting in a substantial lost of floatation which could be

catastrophic. This project sounds easy but I believe it to be more

challenging than it appears. Now if you could find a wack of plastic 45

gallon drums you'd be on your way. There is a good book from your neck

of the woods about building floathomes. I don't recall the name but it must

go back to the 70's, it's a paperback about 8 1/2 X 11, probably 100 pages

or so. It has drawings of similar set-ups that would give you an idea of

what will be required.

Good luck, post pictures.

Tom

[lewisboats]

My suggestion would be quart milk bottles...they are square and can be corralled in nice square-ish shapes while minimizing the non-airspace in each bundle. I would net them in bundles. Put the clean empty bottles in the fridge or freezer and once the air is the same temp cap them tightly. This will keep them from collapsing until the temp gets below the temp that the air was originally trapped at. They will expand a bit as temps go up though. Make sure they are clean and washed out with bleach or something that kills bacteria, along with hot water. Now this stuff will last damn near forever...but you need to have a framework that will also last a long time...sealed PVC comes to mind. Cages of 1" PVC built to hold your mesh bagged bottles would work. The platform above could probably be of wood...or maybe that decking that is hollow plastic (recycled too). The cages would only have to be strong enough to contain the bottles but the framework for the deck would need to be beefy to support dirt, trees grass etc.

[JamesG]

Do you think I would have more social acceptability if i made it more of an environmental project? I could make this a non-profit that does cleanups, builds an island that is sustainable, and raises awareness of the North Pacific Garbage patch.

(the North Pacific Garbage Patch is an area of trash twice the size of Texas that's floating in the middle of the pacific ocean. It's location is half way between San Francisco and Hawaii. The trash comes from the surrounding countries and collects in that one place due to the swirling currents. Its mainly plastic and people are trying to figure out how to clean it up.)

Any ideas on keeping 'the man' from making this project a legal nightmare would be appreciated.

[JamesG]

Do you think I would have more social acceptability if i made it more of an environmental project? I could make this a non-profit that does cleanups, builds an island that is sustainable, and raises awareness of the North Pacific Garbage patch.

(the North Pacific Garbage Patch is an area of trash twice the size of Texas that's floating in the middle of the pacific ocean. It's location is half way between San Francisco and Hawaii. The trash comes from the surrounding countries and collects in that one place due to the swirling currents. Its mainly plastic and people are trying to figure out how to clean it up.)

Any ideas on keeping 'the man' from making this project a legal nightmare would be appreciated.

[Kay9]

I think your vessel is going to be in violation of MARPOL:

" MARPOL strictly prohibits the disposal of ANY plastics, products containing plastics, or their derivatives, on ANY body of water in the world. This means there can no longer be dumping of plastics at sea, regardless of the distance you are off the coast.
In addition MARPOL further restricts the dumping of trash, garbage and foodstuffs within certain limits of the United States coastline."

[Kay9]

Your going to be really hard pressed to explain to the USCG Boarding officer how you vessel isnt just a floating MARPOL violation.

The fine is 5 years and $5K

K9

[JamesG]

Floating yes, sea worthy is out, so that leaves item one and three. Item one is fairly easy and likely could be donated without having to go through a bunch of leg work. A land fill may actually pay you to remove the darn things. This brings you to 3, the one that will cause you to go bald. You'll have to have some sort of registration, self propelled or not.

California is pissy enough to want a few studies done on the long term immersion of "said bottles" to see if out gassing might make seals fart more often or something. In any case, the usual course of action when a government is faced with this type of thing, is to tie you up in legal battles for as long as possible, in an effort to dissuade you, frankly, just out money you, until you're bankrupt or loose interest. No, it's not right, but it is "business" and an effective tool for what they will feel is a "weirdo trying something funny". Try Mexico, where the air's warm, the beer cheap and the regulations are lax . . .

Do you think I would have more social acceptability if i made it more of an environmental project? I could make this a non-profit that does cleanups, builds an island that is sustainable, and raises awareness of the North Pacific Garbage patch.

(the North Pacific Garbage Patch is an area of trash twice the size of Texas that's floating in the middle of the pacific ocean. It's location is half way between San Francisco and Hawaii. The trash comes from the surrounding countries and collects in that one place due to the swirling currents. Its mainly plastic and people are trying to figure out how to clean it up.)


Fun project. I'm thinking invert the bottles and contain them in bundles of

similar size and shape. I would agree that seaworthy is probably out but

tied or appropriately anchoured should be okay. Over time, the flexing will

cause fatigue but if you frame it adaquately you should get good life out of

it. It's not a bad time to do this as the price of used plastic fell with the

recession/depression. You'll want to keep the bottles out of the light to

avoid UV degradation, this will be important. Your bundle containment

may serve this purpose. One of your larger risks will be your floatation

shifting resulting in a substantial lost of floatation which could be

catastrophic. This project sounds easy but I believe it to be more

challenging than it appears. Now if you could find a wack of plastic 45

gallon drums you'd be on your way. There is a good book from your neck

of the woods about building floathomes. I don't recall the name but it must

go back to the 70's, it's a paperback about 8 1/2 X 11, probably 100 pages

or so. It has drawings of similar set-ups that would give you an idea of

what will be required.

Good luck, post pictures.

Tom

Tom,
I think you're right that flexing overtime will cause fatigue, so what if the island was designed to flex? I was thinking of taking nets and tying them together so that they are long tubes of nets. The tubes could be filled with plastic bottles, then wrapped around itself. You would basically be sewing a big spiral RUG (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3628/3577536636_da01ed816f.jpg). If the island floats it should be able to take any forces up to the strength of the ropes. The waves can be rough, but I would imaging that the rug will remain unbroken because there is no bow crashing and fatigue that rigid ships encounter.

I don't know what would happen if the island encounters white caps. Its seems like the leading edge could fold over onto itself since white caps are beyond vertical. I guess there would need to be some level of springiness so that the island could withstand white caps.

Good point about the UV. I'll definitely have to keep the bottles covered at all times.

I'm curious about flotation shifting. That is definitely something to keep in mind when designing it.


My suggestion would be quart milk bottles...they are square and can be corralled in nice square-ish shapes while minimizing the non-airspace in each bundle. I would net them in bundles. Put the clean empty bottles in the fridge or freezer and once the air is the same temp cap them tightly. This will keep them from collapsing until the temp gets below the temp that the air was originally trapped at. They will expand a bit as temps go up though. Make sure they are clean and washed out with bleach or something that kills bacteria, along with hot water. Now this stuff will last damn near forever...but you need to have a framework that will also last a long time...sealed PVC comes to mind. Cages of 1" PVC built to hold your mesh bagged bottles would work. The platform above could probably be of wood...or maybe that decking that is hollow plastic (recycled too). The cages would only have to be strong enough to contain the bottles but the framework for the deck would need to be beefy to support dirt, trees grass etc.

Lewisboats,

That's such a cool idea about putting the bottles in a freezer and then capping them! I was wondering if the buoyancy would decrease when the bottles are under water due to collapsing. For a while i was thinking of putting special fittings on each one to fill them with compressed air but you're idea is way better.

[gonzo]

Just go to the North Pacific. There is a ready made plastic island for the taking. Lasso as many as you want and call it your own country.

[JamesG]

Your going to be really hard pressed to explain to the USCG Boarding officer how you vessel isn't just a floating MARPOL violation.

The fine is 5 years and $5K

K9

I guess there's a big difference between "dumping" and building a vessel with plastic bottles as it's hull. I would hope the USCG would be reasonable. I guess it all boils down the officer.

It might be smart to get it registered as a vessel if the MARPOL violation is a big concern. I was originally thinking about pulling the island with a boat in order to get around having to register the island (and avoid other BS), but maybe that's not a good idea afterall.

It would be nice just to build it in Mexico, but I want to do this in California.

Maybe there is some kind of special use permit i can get. I could also just say to the coast guard that this is trash that i cleaned up/

[Kay9]

If it gose into to any US waters its going to have to at least be state registered.

I think your about to learn why the other "islands" were built in foriegn countries with "lax" maritime enforcement.

Im not saying you cant make this happen, but I really think you should prepair yourself for a multi-year multi-jurisdiction registration nightmare.

K9

[peter radclyffe]

yeah you can be the captain of the offshore tax free garbage patch continent, take a flamethrower & weld it altogether, & its yours

[Tiny Turnip]

there was a floating island knocking around Sausalito oh, some 20 - 25 years back. Not plastic bottles, quite a grand affair, and quite a tourist attraction. Might give you an angle on the legislation if you can find it...

[Submarine Tom]

The ticket would be to contain the "naturally" occuring floating plastic

island. Then you'd be a hero!

Like I said, good luck, post pictures!

Tom

[PAR]

Trained octopus, lots of them and call it a marine life re-education project. You could probably qualify for several government grants and loans to help defer the cost of octopus training. The DOD might get involved, if you can prove the trained multi-armed, would be submariners could wrap their suction cup laden legs around a torpedo.

Maybe a different tack, you could suggest it's a marine life protection shield and bleed of some funds from similar DOD Star Wars projects. Yep, you're intentionally inexpensive (this gets the politicians on board) Marine Life Shield (MLS) can benefit all kinds of poor suffering marine organisms (An Equal Opportunity Program). Once the MLS is installed the deadly UV rays (a result of the acid rain induced ozone depletion) that have devastated the area will be blocked sufficiently to permit a healthy rebound of the life below. It doesn't cost much so the Republicans can like it, the tree huggers and marine life worriers will climb in bed with you. Hell, you'll be the happiest turd in the toilet.

[wellmer]

yeah you can be the captain of the offshore tax free garbage patch continent, take a flamethrower & weld it altogether, & its yours

Even better you could take the calories necessary to melt it and form it from the plastic itself...if you have energy and building material for free - you just need a bit of tecnology to make it work. Plastic is the most versatil material on earth - you can build anything if you have a unlimited source of plastic. Somebody should check that with the seasteading people... building a seastead and clean up the ocean - all in one - i like that! sounds funny but that idea has POTENTIAL ! - if you can build a city in the desert founded only on casinos (las vegas) why not a existance on mining and transforming enourmous amounts of free and easy available plastic. There are companies that exist from recycling plastic they have to pay for... why should it NOT work with free plastic. The plastic goods need no cooling, just a ship to transport them to the commerce centers to be used (and probably thrown away) again...

[apex1]

Hmm,

when wellmer gets enthusiastic, something must be wrong with the project. Bear in mind: he´s our expert on sinking devices!

[Tcubed]

" MARPOL strictly prohibits the disposal of ANY plastics, products containing plastics, or their derivatives, on ANY body of water in the world. This means there can no longer be dumping of plastics at sea, regardless of the distance you are off the coast.
In addition MARPOL further restricts the dumping of trash, garbage and foodstuffs within certain limits of the United States coastline."Uhm.... So does that mean no more plastic boats from now on?

[dskira]

Even better you could take the calories necessary to melt it and form it from the plastic itself...if you have energy and building material for free - you just need a bit of tecnology to make it work. Plastic is the most versatil material on earth - you can build anything if you have a unlimited source of plastic. Somebody should check that with the seasteading people... building a seastead and clean up the ocean - all in one - i like that! sounds funny but that idea has POTENTIAL ! - if you can build a city in the desert founded only on casinos (las vegas) why not a existance on mining and transforming enourmous amounts of free and easy available plastic.

Here we go again, the genius is here to save the island. :p
He will call for investor, he is a specialist to call investors,
For what? that is the question.
He can add the "garbadge plastic dumping island" to is web-site.
Nice couple. :P
Cheers
Daniel

[JamesG]

Even better you could take the calories necessary to melt it and form it from the plastic itself...if you have energy and building material for free - you just need a bit of tecnology to make it work. Plastic is the most versatil material on earth - you can build anything if you have a unlimited source of plastic. Somebody should check that with the seasteading people... building a seastead and clean up the ocean - all in one - i like that! sounds funny but that idea has POTENTIAL ! - if you can build a city in the desert founded only on casinos (las vegas) why not a existance on mining and transforming enourmous amounts of free and easy available plastic. There are companies that exist from recycling plastic they have to pay for... why should it NOT work with free plastic. The plastic goods need no cooling, just a ship to transport them to the commerce centers to be used (and probably thrown away) again...

Yeah I was thinking that I would do cleanups to get the plastic. When I pick up pieces of plastic that's not buoyant (not a bottle) I can probably reform it by using a hot mold. The mold will turn various plastic pieces into buoyant bottles for the "hull".

I'm really not trying to turn this into a money making business, although i know I could. Building this island is purely for fun and doing something good.

Can you tell me more about using plastic as fuel? I've heard of this being done in incinerators i think. I would imagine that it would pollute like crazy though. I figured i would get some old diesel engines and run vegetable oil in them. If I capsize the oil couldn't do any damage to the ocean since its non toxic. Oh and its free fuel since you can get it from restaurants.

I might be interested in doing benefit concerts along the coast to raise money for sending ships out to the garbage patch. The ships could bring back a few scoops at a time and build the island bigger. As the island gets bigger people will really take notice at how much shit is out there in the water. It all comes from land, then goes into the rivers, then out to sea. Have you ever seen pictures of the LA river (http://neverbetter.nomadlife.org/uploaded_images/LA-River-2-740329.JPG)? Its a real problem. Birds are dying in the millions from eating plastic which fills their stomachs and causes mal-nourishment (http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/posts/plastic_diet/). The outer islands of Hawaii are more plastic than sand. The problem is bad on the beaches in Alaska too. Its bad everywhere. The currents of the ocean collect plastic concentrated areas, called Gyres (http://greenearthfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/garbage_patch.jpg), then throw it off onto beaches.

I think this could be a very fun and meaningful project, but I want to take it slow because I think turning it into a money grabbing business would cheapen it. It seems like the only real problem is that of registration, inspections, and bureaucratic non-sense. I wonder what it will take to get past that.

People on here are saying to be prepared for a long battle. I guess if its going to be that bad I need to walk through the front door with a suit on, sort of speak. Non-profit all the way. Rub some elbows. Work with other environmental companies. But I prefer to 'just do it' and not kiss ass to do something that's innately good.

http://www.stevejordanbooks.com/images/rubbish1.jpg

[Boston]

I might point out that the plasticizers in plastics ( things extremely toxic like BP-A ) are not particularly stable in salt water, which is why plastics tend to photo-degrade into little bits easily ingested by ( and extreemly deadly to by the way ) marine life. Your floating island of toxins is going to not so slowly degrade into its constituent components one of which is going to have to do some long distance swimming. The rest are going to go on for eons as persistent bio toxin accumulators being ingested by an endless parade of sea life on its last gasp. Best thing you could do is collect all the crap you intended to float out to sea on this raft and not recycle it but simply remove it from the environment. Any gasification fueled power plant would do nicely.
cheers
B

[JamesG]

I might point out that the plasticizers in plastics ( things extremely toxic like BP-A ) are not particularly stable in salt water, which is why plastics tend to photo-degrade into little bits easily ingested by ( and extreemly deadly to by the way ) marine life. Your floating island of toxins is going to not so slowly degrade into its constituent components one of which is going to have to do some long distance swimming. The rest are going to go on for eons as persistent bio toxin accumulators being ingested by an endless parade of sea life on its last gasp. Best thing you could do is collect all the crap you intended to float out to sea on this raft and not recycle it but simply remove it from the environment. Any gasification fueled power plant would do nicely.
cheers
B

What would happen if the plastic was not in the sun? I would like to cover the island with dirt and plants. If the bottles are not in the sun wouldn't photo degradation and toxin accumulation slow to a halt?

[Boston]

most of the binders of the plastics molecules are not very stable but instead are soluble at room temp in water, even more so in sea water at varying temps. I have several friends who specifically study this issue and there is simply no way to sequester the toxins held within complex plastics. Sun or no this idea does far more to contribute to the pollution problem, the effort would be far better spent properly incinerating these plastic components. Sorry Im sure you meant well but the only viable solution to the plastics issue is to gradually eliminate plastics from production and force a plastics settlement on the manufacturers of plastics components; one which forces them to clean up the mess they have foisted on our planet in the name of profit.

[Submarine Tom]

JamesG,

For that suit of yours, it takes about 72, two liter plastic bottles to make a

three piece polyester suit!!!

Tom

[rwatson]

Even better you could take the calories necessary to melt it and form it from the plastic itself...if you have energy and building material for free - you just need a bit of tecnology to make it work. Plastic is the most versatil material on earth - . The plastic goods need no cooling, just a ship to transport them to the commerce centers to be used (and probably thrown away) again...

Good point Wellmer - I think it would be well worth doing. It took a long time to recognize the value of land based waste, so maybe sea based waste is overdue for a process.

[apex1]

the effort would be far better spent properly incinerating these plastic components.

Sorry Boston, NO.

Incineration is the worst way to get rid of it, due to heavy pollution (Furane, Dioxine).
Depolymerisation is the way to go. Optimal is a pressureless, catalytic depo. treatment. The result is a medium destillate, similar to pure Diesel with a high cetan #.
In simple terms, thats just the backward process of making plastic from mineral oil.
But the plant you need costs around 5mio US$. The industry does´nt like the system too much (guess why?), so, I built only two of them by so far.
But it is a sensible, and profitable treatment, when the input material is for free.

Regards
Richard

[bntii]

The only real solution is to keep this horse in the barn.

Eventually........ this is how the problem will be addressed and may birds killed with this one stone.

[wellmer]

...cleanups to get the plastic ... prepared for a long battle....

Hello James, i think the core problem you face is not technology it is not even the "legal problems" - there should be only few laws on that - what you have to fear in such a project is administration and perception.

You need to steer the project free of the "trash pile" perception, in california you can not do what you can do in mexico. (plastic bottles) - you need to concentrate on TRANSFORM the plastic - instead of accumulate plastic bottles which gets you entangled in "trash pile" legislation, administration and "show stopping" of all kind.

A floating island big enough to build a house on it, already exists, it is called a barge - authorities will not have a big problem to register another "barge" it should be easy. The difficult part is to get registered as a barge if you are percieved as a "bottle island", it should be manageable to get a register as a "barge" for a floating "island" based on "reasonable looking plastic float elements", made out of bottles ( that have disappeard due to transforming them). So if you insist in bottles - yes but in mexico - if you stay in california - transform, avoid trash perception.

I would build a project in california on the base that it is much easier, cost efficient, and quick, to transform plastic bottles, than transform minds and perceptions.

To keep anybody in "comfort zone" is KEY if you have a unusual project. I assume the idea of millions of plastic bottles set free in a storm will push out of "comfort zone" almost everybody, from harbor captain, to tourism, ambientalists, etc... the art of pulling off unusual projects is most of all doing the best to maximize your support base, and minimize friction areas.

Cheers,
Wil

[JamesG]

Hello James, i think the core problem you face is not technology it is not even the "legal problems" - there should be only few laws on that - what you have to fear in such a project is administration and perception.

You need to steer the project free of the "trash pile" perception, in california you can not do what you can do in mexico. (plastic bottles) - you need to concentrate on TRANSFORM the plastic - instead of accumulate plastic bottles which gets you entangled in "trash pile" legislation, administration and "show stopping" of all kind.

A floating island big enough to build a house on it, already exists, it is called a barge - authorities will not have a big problem to register another "barge" it should be easy. The difficult part is to get registered as a barge if you are percieved as a "bottle island", it should be manageable to get a register as a "barge" for a floating "island" based on "reasonable looking plastic float elements", made out of bottles ( that have disappeard due to transforming them). So if you insist in bottles - yes but in mexico - if you stay in california - transform, avoid trash perception.

I would build a project in california on the base that is much easier, cost efficient, and quick to transform plastic bottles than transform minds and perceptions. Keep anybody in "comfort zone" is KEY if you have a unusual project. I assume the idea of millions of plastic bottles set free in a storm will push out of "comfort zone" almost everybody, from harbor captain, to tourism, ambientalists, etc...

Cheers,
Wil

That seems like the best advice I've heard so far.

The statement of transforming the minds of people vs. transforming the bottles seems especially true. Transforming the bottles is definitely easier.

As I was reading that i got the image of 2'X2' plastic cubes that interlock. It could be designed to be both flotation and topside surface in one. As a whole the island would be a flexible platform of hinging tiles or cubes.

I'm going to to spend some time thinking about this whole perception thing. It does seem like people will be worried about the bottles getting loose.

If i could get the bottles only from beach cleanups and from rivers then it might be socially acceptable, but i don't think i could get enough bottles this way. Realistically, i would need to get bottles that are on their way to the landfill. I'm doing a good thing by getting them out of the landfill and putting them to use, BUT if they weren't in the water originally then i think people might have a problem with this. Basically trash from water being used for the island would be ok. Trash from land for the island would not be ok UNLESS I transform it as you said. That might be the key.

I'm gonna give this some thought.

Thanks Wellmer!

[peter radclyffe]

is it practical to have a floating plastics factory in the garbage dump, to convert the trash to giant lego bricks which can then be used to house plastic people

[Boston]

Sorry Boston, NO.

Incineration is the worst way to get rid of it, due to heavy pollution (Furane, Dioxine).
Depolymerisation is the way to go. Optimal is a pressureless, catalytic depo. treatment. The result is a medium destillate, similar to pure Diesel with a high cetan #.
In simple terms, thats just the backward process of making plastic from mineral oil.
But the plant you need costs around 5mio US$. The industry does´nt like the system too much (guess why?), so, I built only two of them by so far.
But it is a sensible, and profitable treatment, when the input material is for free.

Regards
Richard

an organization I recently worked with is building a 25 million dollar gasification plant with money intended for animal conservation, The plan elicited my resignation in protest.
Frankly to work as a scientists after all these years was a dream come true, however, I'm not interested in political correctness or lecturing endless piles of pencil pushing fools who couldnt give a rats ass about preserving the remnants of what was once an ecology. Most of em were so wrapped up in there own little fields of research they hardly could remember what a girl is let alone be able to appreciate the big picture.
you are of course right Apex.
there is simply no effective way to clean up the plastics disaster that has befallen our world. Only thing to do is ensure that the companies that knowingly produced the pollutants are not allowed to get away with it and are forced into a settlement that ensures the maximum possible compensation is exacted from them.
I was merely stating that rather than build some floating toxic waist island it would be better to send the stuff to an existing gasification plant for proper disposal. I believe if you look up what a gasification power plant is and how it works you will see that the temps involved are sufficient to break down the toxins typically released by incinerating plastics.
The cost and maintenance of these plants should obviously be the responsibility of the industry that required them in order to properly dispose of there product without further damage to the environment

although I gotta admit I had not thought of chemical dissolution
good idea that is
should also work like a charm except that you still need to dispose of the results and incineration once again is the most likely choice

cheers
B

[hoytedow]

Chemical dissolution would at least convert it back into something that could be used as a fuel to power, say, electrical generation plant.

[Boston]

thats exactly what gasification does
but it used extremely high heat instead of chemicals
same thing in the end, breaks the solid to a gas and burns it to generate electricity

[apex1]

....and destroys our environment by pollution. When the temp. goes over 400°C you produce Furane and Dioxine. No matter how tricky (and expensive) the technology, incineration is the wrong way.

[hoytedow]

....and destroys our environment by pollution. When the temp. goes over 400°C you produce Furane and Dioxine. No matter how tricky (and expensive) the technology, incineration is the wrong way.
Richard,
Can the plastic be cracked further to remove furane and dioxine, or perhaps recombined to make some other USEFUL compound?

[apex1]

Richard,
Can the plastic be cracked further to remove furane and dioxine, or perhaps recombined to make some other USEFUL compound?

One must not crack the stuff. If the process stays below 400°C no dioxine and furane is built up.
It can be converted to Diesel fuel of the highest quality. The technology is a low temp. pressureless catalytic depolymerisation. A standard industrial plant, capable of processing 700kg hr is about 5mio US$ and could be installed on a ship. When the input material is plastic and biodegradables only, the output will be around 80 to 85% Diesel fuel.
But!
We are not talking about a garbage dump here! This plastic stuff is smaller than confetti and does not float at the surface.
So, collecting it becomes a real challenge.
When you calculate the density is about 5mg per m² and there are 4 particles in the m² at the points with high density, you have a clue about the task. Then you must not forget, it floats between zero and 10 meters below surface.
To harvest the crap you need to dig through 20 to 40 square km a day and you´ll catch each and everything in that area down to 10 meter depth. You cannot separate the plastic from marine life.
The plant will treat it right, no problem. But you leave a desert behind your ship.
Technically not that big a task, and cost will be reasonable too, but profitable, no. Cost for the process is around 0,23€ per liter Diesel in a landbased plant. (assuming the input material is a homogenous mix, and for free)
A plant on a ship will have about twice the cost min. and the harvest apparatus will need so much energy that you probably produce just enough Diesel to "keep the stack smoking".

Regards
Richard

[bntii]

Thanks Richard- I did not have any ideal of most of the above post.
I resubmit my solution-

"Keep this horse in the barn"
That is keep the stuff out of the environment to start!
Product packaging has far more plastic than it needs considering the alternatives available.

Time is all that is needed to eliminate the "garbage patch" if it is not continually added to.

[Boston]

ok Apex you are a jewel in the crown of conservation
I need to take a few and go re educate on the gasification process
I know its an extreemly high temp system that turns the solids into gasses in an oxygenless environment then add oxygen and ignites that. The whole big deal about it is its supposed to do exactly what your saying it doesnt do, so giving you the benifit of the doubt I need to dig back into this and see if I missed something ( entirely likely ) or if Im just misunderstanding you ( also entirely likely ) or if there is something about the system that has proved itself infective ( happens all the time ).

cheers
B

[gonzo]

I think that the problem is not the system you use, but the low yield of plastic. Also, filtering that much water will destroy most of the sea life.

[apex1]

ok Apex you are a jewel in the crown of conservation
cheers
B

Thank you Boston! I did know I have some qualities, just had not found them.

When you process garbage in a incineration plant, you need high temp anyway, to get a efficient process running. The problem is, that you cannot avoid to produce poisonous gas, like furane / dioxine. There are ways to filter them out or reprocess the gas fraction. We run such plants in Europe since ages. But you have serious loads of slacks and ashes, and they are ALL very poisonous.
Of course the industry tells you, thats all handled safe and environmental friendly. That IS possible, yes. But then the profit is gone!

Holding the plastic fraction out of incineration process is the better way,
thats all.

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

ok Apex you are a jewel in the crown of conservation
cheers
B

Thank you Boston! I did know I have some qualities, just had not found them.

When you process garbage in a incineration plant, you need high temp anyway, to get a efficient process running. The problem is, that you cannot avoid to produce poisonous gas, like furane / dioxine. There are ways to filter them out or reprocess the gas fraction. We run such plants in Europe since ages. But you have serious loads of slacks and ashes, and they are ALL very poisonous.
Of course the industry tells you, thats all handled safe and environmental friendly. That IS possible, yes. But then the profit is gone!

Holding the plastic fraction out of incineration process is the better way,
thats all.

Regards
Richard

[gonzo]

Derelikt is the answer

[hoytedow]

Now to find out the half-life of furane and dioxine.

[hoytedow]

A derivative of furan, 2,5-dimethylfuran is a heterocyclic compound with the formula (CH3)2C4H2O. While it may be abbreviated DMF, it should not be confused with dimethylformamide. This simple compound is a potential biofuel, being derivable from cellulose.
Forget half life, is this do-able from furane gas?

[apex1]

No idea hoyte.

I just know that both substances are extremely toxic and not welcome in waste processing.
And as always, the easiest way to avoid such stuff is the best. And thats low temp. treatment of many different kinds.
A integrated waste treatment and recycling plant I´m going to build in Izmir, actually has 11 different technologies involved, to process average household and grade 1 (low risk) industrial waste.

Regards
Richard

[toxictom]

I think I've seen a couple boats made from bottles on Instructables.com. It's a great resource. All these posts make it sound like you wish to put this boat in the water and just let it float away to the big plastic dump in the ocean.

[JamesG]

No, i'm not interested in letting it float away to the plastic dump in the ocean. I would like to build it, live on it, go surfing, throw concerts, and travel... I don't really have a clear idea of what the whole thing is going to be about though.
I'm afraid i'll have to make it an environmental awareness thing to get social acceptance. I would rather just do my own thing though. I would rather people be drawn to it for a wide variety of reasons that way my days aren't spent talking about the environment 24/7. I'm open to ideas.

Oh, and thanks for the instructables.com tip. I'll check it out.

[gonzo]

"environmental awareness" is one of the modern catch phrases. It usually means people polluting pristine land with gigantic "ranch houses" with fireplaces that produce all kinds of smog. As long as you dress it right, the social acceptance is already there.

[JamesG]

Does anyone have an idea about how i could make molds, throw some plastic in them, and pop out nice little buoyant containers?

It would be nice if i didn't have to heat the plastic up until its molten. I want it to be as simple as possible. Maybe throw random types of plastic into a hot mold, clamp it down under high pressure, then pop it out with some decent adhesion between the various types of plastic.

Anybody know about his type of stuff?

Update:
I think what i am asking about is called "heat compression" according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_recycling). Can I do this myself? Is there a lot involved?

[peter radclyffe]

if you set off an atom bomb in the plastic island it may produce the perfect mushroom
sad but true
it would contain it all in one hit
or you could dredge it
& dump it all in a volcano
& put it all back where it came from
irresponsible talk

[JamesG]

Does anybody know about the "heat compression" method of recycling plastic? I couldn't find much about it on google, but maybe its known by a different name.

I'm trying to find a simple way to make buoyant containers out of various types of plastic.

[apex1]

Does anybody know about the "heat compression" method of recycling plastic? I couldn't find much about it on google, but maybe its known by a different name.

I'm trying to find a simple way to make buoyant containers out of various types of plastic.

just impossible!
Due to the many different sorts of plastic, and their extremely different technical properties, a mix is hard to achieve, brittle, and worth nearly nothing.
We have had some park banks in Germany made out of that crap. They did deteriorate faster than the weakest wood would.

[Boston]

ya we have had a lot of failures in the engineered lumbers that use a high percentage of post consumer plastics
I've looked at two jobs just in the last month that involved replacement of these products, I turned them down.

oh found this on the BBC today
I been saying this for years as one of my friends is a researchers involved with plastics chemical pollution


Plastic chemicals 'feminise boys'
( a class of chemicals known as Tartarogens that have been known for some time to cause genital malformations )

Chemicals in plastics alter the brains of baby boys, making them "more feminine", say US researchers.

Males exposed to high doses in the womb went on to be less likely to play with boys' toys like cars or to join in rough and tumble games, they found.

The University of Rochester team's latest work adds to concerns about the safety of phthalates, found in vinyl flooring and PVC shower curtains.

The findings are reported in the International Journal of Andrology.

Plastic furniture

Phthalates have the ability to disrupt hormones, and have been banned in toys in the EU for some years.

However, they are still widely used in many different household items, including plastic furniture and packaging.

There are many different types and some mimic the female hormone oestrogen.

This feminising capacity of phthalates makes them true 'gender benders'
Elizabeth Salter-Green, director of CHEM Trust

The same researchers have already shown that this can mean boys are born with genital abnormalities.

Now they say certain phthalates also impact on the developing brain, by knocking out the action of the male hormone testosterone.

Dr Shanna Swan and her team tested urine samples from mothers over midway through pregnancy for traces of phthalates.

The women, who gave birth to 74 boys and 71 girls, were followed up when their children were aged four to seven and asked about the toys the youngsters played with and the games they enjoyed.

Girls' play

They found that two phthalates DEHP and DBP can affect play behaviour.

Boys exposed to high levels of these in the womb were less likely than other boys to play with cars, trains and guns or engage in "rougher" games like playfighting.

PHTHALATES
There are many different types and the most commonly used are deemed entirely safe by regulators
DEHP - used to make PVC soft and pliable and used in products like flooring
DBP - used as a plasticiser in glues, dyes and textiles

Elizabeth Salter-Green, director of the chemicals campaign group CHEM Trust, said the results were worrying.

"We now know that phthalates, to which we are all constantly exposed, are extremely worrying from a health perspective, leading to disruption of male reproduction health and, it appears, male behaviour too.

"This feminising capacity of phthalates makes them true 'gender benders'."

She acknowledged that the boys who have been studied were still young, but she said reduced masculine play at this age might lead to other feminised developments in later life.

But Tim Edgar, of the European Council for Plasticisers and Intermediates, said: "We need to get some scientific experts to look at this study in more detail before we can make a proper judgement."

He said there were many different phthalates in use and the study concerned two of the less commonly used types that were on the EU candidate list as potentially hazardous and needing authorisation for use.

DBP has been banned from use in cosmetics, such as nail varnish, since 2005 in the EU.

The British Plastics Federation said: "Chemical safety is of paramount importance to the plastics industry which has invested heavily in researching the substances it uses.

"Moreover, the new European Chemical Regulation, REACH, will ensure further rigorous evaluation and testing or chemical substances and their uses."

[Submarine Tom]

Canada has recently banned the use of PHTHALATES

If interested in the effects, Google CBC "The Disappearing Male"

It runs 44 minutes, with no commercials, in English. Then try and live

your life with no plastics. Very challenging, nearly impossible I'm afraid.

-Tom

[PAR]

I hate phthalates too, I prefer that she just take the pill . . .

[gonzo]

Do you still play with trains?

[Boston]

in men these kinda of drugs tend to have two effects
makes your balls either not develop or under-develop and it alters the brain chemistry in some way to reduce the production of chemicals linked to testicle development

if your one of those who thinks its all some kind of crock to whittle more money out of you for some arcane environmental BS read this

http://www.dhushara.com/book/diversit/extra/sperm.htm