30' plywood sharpie

[davesg]

I've been thinking through this design and am looking for some comments. The idea is a large trailerable coastal boat for three in Florida. LOA is about 30', beam about 7.5', draft board up about a foot. There's about 250 sq ft in the cat schooner rig (is this about right? more? less?) and an outboard well for 6-10 hp. As drawn there is about an 18" lead between the COE and the CLR. The rudder may change to a low-aspect sharpie type underslung rudder but I drew in the dinghy style kickup to see how it looked.

There is sitting headroom at the dinette area and large companionway hatches. Galley will be a small sink and portable stove, head will be a bucket, there are three large single berths and that's about it. The idea is to have the extreme shallow draft of a sharpie with some stretching out space for three to do a few weeks at a time along to coast or over to the Bahamas.

Construction will be stitch and glue over a few bulkheads and a mold in the middle. The scale is 1' to the side of a square on the graph paper.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6834/cartoonyh.jpg

Here's my first try at the lines. I think there is too much flare but I wanted to keep the bottom to 4' wide for plywood. My first thought on scantlings is 3/4" bulkheads, 3/4" bottom, 1/2" sides, and 1/2" deck; any thoughts on that? I'd really like to keep all up weight for tailering under 3500 lbs. I'm figuring on somewhere around 1000-1500 lbs inside ballast.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2979/30sharpielinesplan.jpg

I'm completely open to suggestions and comments. I wanted to get some feedback before doing the next drawings and starting on the construction details.

Thanks,
David

[troy2000]

OK, here goes the noob, sticking his head into the hornet's nest.:p

I'm getting ready to build a plumb-stemmed, transomed plywood sharpie, that will dry sail most of her life on a trailer. When she does go into the water, it'll be mostly on the Colorado River lakes: Lake Mojave, Lake Mead, Lake Powell. She'll be a weekender, not a cruiser or live aboard.

She'll be about 30' LOA, with a maximum beam of 8' or a little under. I'll be building to workboat standards. That doesn't mean garbage; I'm a third-generation carpenter and woodworker, and I do good work whether I'm building a house or a boat. But she'll be rugged and plain, with simple appointments and painted surfaces, mostly so I can giterdone and get her on the water. I enjoy building and woodworking. But I'm not one of those who gets lost in the process and forgets that the idea is to finish something, so it can be used.

There's going to be no fiberglass or epoxy anywhere, not even tape on the edges. Not because I don't know how to work with the stuff, but because I hate it. I hate the smell, I hate dealing with the cure times; I hate sanding it, etc.

She'll be finished in semi-gloss house paint. I have a house built in 1940 that's gotten wet more times over the years than my boat ever will. But it's always had a good paint job, and I wish the inside of the house was in the same shape as the outside....

I figure most of the beating the boat takes will be on the bottom, from sandbars and deliberate beaching. So I'll double up there, and maybe add some replaceable solid wood skid strips. If the plywood elsewhere checks or splits I'll sand, fill and add more paint. If the checking still shows, I'll live with it.

I'm sixty years old, and I'm willing to bet the boat will outlast me. If she doesn't, oh well; I'm not out to build an heirloom. My sons and grandkids may have to just bite the bullet, and pony up for a new one....

I don't have a full set of plans drawn, and may not get around to doing so. I'm a competent draftsman, but I don't have a full-sized drafting table set up any more. But obviously I'll be drawing out some of the details as an aid. I did build a 3/4"=1'"0" model a few years ago to work the shape of the hull and other basics (right before my finances went into the toilet last time), but my younger son promptly ran off with it. There seems to be some things that a man with sons or younger brothers just can't keep. Before I build though, I'll do a detailed model at 1 1/2"=1'0"....and guard it with my life until the full-sized boat is done.

What I have in mind is generally based on Monroe's Egret (to no one's surprise, I'm sure:D). But she'll be stretched to 30', and widened a tad to almost 8' on deck, without trying to fatten her any more than absolutely necessary at the chines. I'll build her by fastening the sides to a stem, then wrapping them around bulkhead frames at both ends of the cabin, and on back to the stern. Then I'll add chines, gunwales, deck clamps, etc, watertight lockers fore and aft. I may have a stringer or two if I think ishe needs it. She'll have an inside plank keel. And I'm considering rabbeting the chines to cover the plywood edges, since I'm not taping the seams (yes, I have the tools and the skills).

The cabin will have a bare 4'0" of headroom, which should give sitting room over low settees. I'm considering removable canvas side panels for the cabin, because it gets hot on those lakes in the summer. On the other hand there are mosquitoes too, and there can be some chilly winds in winter.

Instead of being double-ended, she'll have enough of a transom to flatten the run aft a little when the sides are bent in a fair curve, more like the old racing sharpies. But I'll still carry the stern up out of the water, unlike Brewer's Mystic Sharpie design. If it's on trim with no passengers, the theory is that a crowd in the cockpit should just settle her down enough by the stern to give me a longer waterline. If possible the side planks will be straight top and bottom, tapering evenly back from the bow to the stern. I'll tweak the flare, in an attempt to approximate the old recommendations to have a straight run down from the bow for the first third of loa, a smooth round in the middle third, and a reasonably straight run up from there to the transom. Widest beam will be amidships of LOA, which will put it somewhat back of amidships LWL.

I'm hoping to squeeze in a minimal v-berth forward (for two people who are close friends, or for one active sleeper), two settee berths, folding table on the centerboard, a very basic galley to port, and a simple enclosure for a portable toilet to starboard. I'm thinking of a sliding hatch big enough to give the cook headroom. If that doesn't work out, I guess we can always BBQ on deck.

The centerboard will need to be somewhat L-shaped, to give decent access to the V-berth. The rudder will be the traditional balanced inboard type, with its stock flanged so it's easier to remove. The cockpit will be self-draining, which means we may have to choose between sitting on deck or on the cockpit sole, if it works out as shallow as I suspect it will. Ballast will be bricks under the settees and cabin sole.

For a rig, I'm seriously considering the pirogue or cat-ketch setup; it's a well-proven and simple one. But I've given a lot of thought to a yawl rig, with a short bowsprit that can be run in when not in use. The jib would be boomed; the main would be gaff-rigged; the mizzen would be a boomed spritsail.

Hopefully, I'd be able to do a panic reef simply by downhauling the mainsail, and run jib and jigger. I had a flat bottomed, double ended centerboard canoe rigged that way for a while, and very rarely even used the mainsail except in light morning airs. Believe you me: I got good at yanking that main down in a hurry. Maybe that just means I was over-canvassed....

I used to draw some stares when I slid the canoe into the water, and started stepping masts and bending on sails. And an outboard boat followed me with a gal standing up and videotaping me for a long time on Lake Mojave one afternoon, back when camcorders were new.

Since I'm not as young as I used to be, and definitely not as old as I'm going to be, I figure the mainmast should have a tabernacle. I'd like to be able to swing it down, unfasten it, and slide it forward for trailering.

There'll be a narrow bridge deck, with enough room for an ice chest under it to port. I'd like to make the ice chest accessible from both the cockpit and the galley, but that might be getting too fancy.

I've also thought about a well for a very small outboard to starboard, with a mount that would swing it up a little, then tilt the prop back under the cockpit when not in use, with some sort of a flap to stop up the well at the bottom when the motor isn't in use.

A couple of questions: does anyone have an opinion on whether an outboard somewhat (not radically) off center, and forward like that in the boat with steering being done by the rudder, would work? Does anyone think the boat's too big to trailer and I should go smaller?

This seems to be an articulate, informed and opinionated bunch on this forum; I'm hoping for some interesting feedback. The target's up and loose, gentlemen....fire at will.:eek:

[troy2000]

<moderator note: two similar idea threads merged in hopes of a better conversation togeter>

I wonder if they have so many people wanting to build 30' sharpies that they should sequester us all off by ourselves in a Sharpies Forum somewhere?:D

I'm certainly no professional or experienced designer. But my opinion, speaking strictly as another amateur, is that you should give up on trying to keep the bottom at 4 foot. That much flare combined with a shallow draft is probably going to guarantee you'll spend most of your time sailing on your ear. And I'd give up on the split cabin. It looks good, but carrying it straight on through instead will make life below a lot easier. Not to mention easier to build.

I'm just filling space until the big kids get here though; don't take my word for anything.

[PAR]

Actually the "split cabin" has a lot of merit structurally, though you'll want at least a partial bulkhead there for the mast. Troy and David, there are quite a few of these types of design available currently and the wise thing would be to avail yourself of these plans. No more guessing about load paths or anticipated strain transmission or structural scantlings, just follow the plans.

I mention this because of you weight goals. When you subtract your desired (or hoped for) ballast from the full up weight of the boat, you'll have to make the whole structure about a ton or so, which seems, well naive to be frank and clearly not something derived at from a careful weight calculation study, which is how a designer does it.

There are other things I see in your two sketches that make me wonder as well and strongly recommend you acquire a set of plans from a designer. I don't mean to offend you, but there are clear and obvious flaws that suggest a novice designer with limited understanding. We can run through all of these if you like, but honestly it's a lot easier on the ego to just work from a known design, embellishing it as desired (within reason) to create you own special yacht. A number of designers, myself included, have specialized in sharpie designs and can help.

For example, you may want to consider Glen-L's "Chessie Flyer" or one of Bruce Kirby's Norwark Island Sharpies, maybe one of Jay Benford's or Ted Brewer's designs.

[troy2000]

I thank you, Par. Your comments are well-meant, and undoubtedly good advice on top of it. Unfortunately, nothing I've seen is exactly what I want in the way of a lake and river boat for weekends, as opposed to a cruiser or live-aboard.

For example, Chessie Flyer is a very nice boat. But it's a little beamy for a flat-bottom boat with sharp chines, particularly for a double ender. I don't like the steel centerboard; when I slide over a sandbar with a board down (and sooner or later I will), I want it to kick up instead of rattling my teeth. I don't want a mast in the middle of the cockpit. I haven't seen a body plan or photos from the stern, but if by pinkie stern they mean the gunwales coming to a point beyond a transom, it strikes me as an affectation and unnecessary complication. And so on....:)

Norfolk Island Sharpie: I don't need or want six feet of headroom in a boat with a 12" draft, and it has a top-heavy, clumsy look to my eyes. The rudder is way too deep for my purposes, as is a centerboard designed to drop down almost to vertical. And again, I don't really like sharing a cockpit with a mast if it can be avoided.

Brewer's Mystic Sharpie strikes me as entirely too gussied-up for something derived from the simple, clean lines of traditional sharpies. And by dropping the stern to the waterline and adding a fixed skeg, I think he negates several advantages of the sharpie-style boat.

The Egret as drawn for Woodenboat is too spartan; Bolger's stuff is too boxy to suit me; anything with a keel on it isn't a shoal-draft sharpie; and so on. You get the idea....

I have a couple of Chapelle's books in the mail, and I'll bury my nose in them when they get here. I've already been through Bolger's books over the years, as well as those of John Leather, John Gardner, Ruel Parker and others. And again I doubt I'll find exactly what I want. So I'll be back to designing my own. And I do have some experience with flat-bottomed boats, although I haven't built anything larger than 16' before. What I have in mind so far falls well within traditional sharpie parameters. I may not win any design contests with it, but I'm not worried about it being a disaster.

[Brands01]

I love the idea of building a boat to my own design, and I totally understand others who embark on the same. I'm also someone who learns well from books, and have amassed a substantial library of boat books and think it is possible to do what you're intending.

You will get a lot of experienced people on this site suggesting you buy stock plans, and they have a very valid point. But it seems you are pretty intent, and are starting out fairly well informed and open minded. Hopefully the big kids won't be too insistent on changing your mind, and will help you change your design into something worthy of the expense and time of building, although I wouldn't be expecting too easy a ride!

Good luck!

[frank smith]

Ted Brewer has a nice design all ready to go. There is also a nice one about 30' in one of Chapelles books, I think it is his boat building book.
Anyway if I was going to design my own I would stat by looking at those for some guidance

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/mystic.htm

If you stick to the basic recipe ,you should be able to cook one up .

[frank smith]

Troy , here is Atkins LITTLE BEAR. sort of a sharpie skiff , but a lot of boat .

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LittleBear.html

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photos/LittleBear/LittleBear-01.jpg

[davesg]

I'd like to make very clear that we're following two roughly similar design ideas here. Mine includes the posted drawings that started this thread and is for a stitch and glue lightweight double-ended sharpie with the split cabin, there is also Troy's idea for a sharpie but with a different deck and cabin and built more traditionally. Its hard to keep two discussions in one thread distinct but keep an eye on who is posting what!

The idea with the split cabin was to get that cross structure in way of the mast and centerboard trunk. This is intended as basically a 25' sharpie stretched out to 30', there just isn't enough room inside to make one big cabin, so there is a berth up forward with its own hatch. I like the layout and I realize it wouldn't be for everyone but that's why we design our own. There is a bulkhead separating the two spaces and acting as reinforcement for the fwd end of the centerboard trunk.

The Norfolk Island Sharpies and Mystic are all very nice boats but are much bigger and more complicated than I had in mind. The design inspirations I'm working from are Monroe's Egret, Reuel Parker's Egret (http://www.parker-marine.com/28shegretpage.htm), and the sharpies in Chapelle's Boatbuilding (see the 24' Sharpie.) Freeboard fwd should be about three feet, aft less than two.

Little Bear is a great boat too but still bigger and more complicated than needed. I have a 32' sloop for distance sailing and the 'big' cruises. This sharpie is for gunkholing, sailing the shoals, and trailering.

Chessie Flyer is another nice design but again, too big and complicated (though still with a displacement of 4000 lbs with 1000 in ballast). I prefer my layout to Chessie's, would like to get the displacement down some, about 6" less freeboard for and aft and of course more length. I like the cat schooner (or cat ketch) rig for its simplicity, two free standing masts with a minimum of rigging. Chessie gets me close but if I'm going to go through the effort of redesigning the rig and the interior then I might as well design the hull as well.

Given these boats as a starting off point (Parker's sharpie's displacement is listed as 2500 lbs) I don't think 3500 lbs is too unrealistic. Mystic, to my eye a much more complicated but very nice boat is listed at 5500 lbs. I'll figure less ballast than my first guess? Ultimately ballasting will occur after launch to bring things down to her lines and provide adequate stability, the exact weight isn't a major concern right now.


I'll point out up front that this is an amateur design intended for an amateur build, there are no plans for any kind of production, there are no plans for any kind of sale of the plans. There has not been any kind of weight analysis done, nor careful calculations of anything, this is a first draft and I'd like some feedback before moving onto the next layer of the design spiral (Cyrus Hamlin, Preliminary Design of Boats and Ships.)

This is completely for my own edification and education. I am an amateur with no formal training as a Naval Architect. I have plenty of reference material available, have read extensively, sailed a bit too, renovated glass boats, done plenty of woodworking, and have a MS in Design and Construction from UF.

Ultimately I'm designing my own boat not because what I want has never been done before, its because I *want* to have designed what I build, even if the boat doesn't *perform* as well as some of these professional designs. I always appreciate the more experienced patrons first reaction to a newbie being "go buy stock plans" and I think that's completely correct nine times out of ten. If I was buying stock plans I wouldn't be posting here about my own design.

Par if you'd be so kind as to enumerate your objections to my draft, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

[frank smith]

It needs a wider bottom for initial stability if you want to keep the rocker and draft minimal . You could do the bottom in 2 layers of 1/2 , no need to keep width at 4' . Too much flair , You said that . I think you have more interior in the boat then there is room for IMO . I like double ended but why lose the stability and room of a transom ?

[troy2000]

I agree, Frank; Little Bear is a lot of boat for her size. But at 8'7" beam she's pushing the envelope for a boat to be trailered without a permit. I'll have to wait until I get home and dig out my Atkins books, but if I remember right, she's also heavy for a trailerable.

And John himself cautions that she isn't fast, as does her dad about Twilight, the boat she's derived from. I'm not a speed demon, but part of the fun of a boat is to see what she'll do sometimes on a breezy summer afternoon.

Somehow over the years I've missed owning Chapelle's books, even though he's referenced constantly in other author's discussions of traditional-style craft. But I have his Boatbuilding and his American Small Sailing Craft on the way; I ordered them a few days ago.

[troy2000]

By the way Dave, I hope you'll forgive me for somewhat hijacking your thread. It does seem reasonable to combine it with mine as the moderator did, since we're both amateur designers talking about a 30' sharpie; it saves some of the members basically making duplicate responses.

But yes, people should keep in mind there are two separate designs under discussion.

[frank smith]

Troy thank for pointing that out, I am reading quickly this morning because I really have things that i have to do. But the title is good hook , and I also dig sharpies .

[davesg]

I was certainly thinking less flare and more bottom but the lure of a single width of ply was too much so I thought I'd see what the group though, I'll add some width and lay it up with a couple of layers. The rocker is there because that's what everyone says about Egret and similar sharpies, keep the stem out by a few inches at rest, and the stern too for reserve buoyancy.

I know the debate between double enders and transoms. I really love the aircraft carrier look for the 'Open**' boats, and Graham Byrnes's EC22 would be high on my list if I were to build front stock plans. I don't intend this to be a planning boat, even in ideal conditions, so I didn't see much great advantage in dragging around all that transom. If I were to go transom I think the thing to do would be to cut things off a few feet shorter and have a wide open cockpit without transom for easier boarding/swimming. That sort of compromises the traditional look and I think would unbalance the appearance with that big aft house too close to the stern. A transom would make this a very different boat and even at this early stage of concept there are some things that have to be decided, double-ended is one of them.

I can see maybe too much interior too, first draft and all that. The big thing I see is the cabinets in the saloon are too far outboard, they need to come in, the low freeboard there, about 30") means they need to be completely inside the sidedecks to have any counter at all. I may have a counter on one side and just shelves on the other. What else should I be looking at in the interior. I did some measurements on the berths/fold out table and they looked okay but I may have missed something.

My construction concept is to scarf up full size topsides (hence using DelftShip, it will expand the developed panels for me), bending those around bulkheads and a mold or two and then adding the bottom. The 30' long sides will be a bear to handle but I can find some extra bodies for an afternoon to get them in place.

Troy, no problem, lots of room in here for two discussions, I just want to make sure we don't all start talking past each other. The big difference I see between our projects is the construction method, you're looking for a more traditional project and I'm a resin and glass devotee. You'll really like Chapelle's books, it seems wild you've never come across them. In fact he's got almost exactly what you're looking for in Boatbuilding, there's a 24' Sharpie that is really quite perfect. I don't think you'll get the interior you're looking for, but maybe if you stretched things out to 30' it could hold a little more. Really any sharpie (Monroe/Chapelle type anyway) is just going to have some room to crawl in out of the weather.

[troy2000]

Dave, the last time I was considering Chapelle's books, the only local bookstore that carried them wanted stunning amounts of money for them. Or at least the prices looked stunning to me, compared to the balance in my checkbook at the time. Of course, that was pre-internet days, and it never occurred to me to ask other bookstores about ordering them.

This time around, I just looked for the cheapest price online from someone with a good rep, and saved almost forty percent off list price. It was almost too easy. If I don't watch it, I'll be building another bookcase.

[gonzo]

The bottom has way too much rocker forward. The rule of thumb is a straight or almost for the first third, then a gentle curve which can accentuate more at the aft part. It will pound and push water forward like a tug.

[PAR]

Now that I've had Jeff (the moderator) move the one thread over here, I'm not so sure it was a wise thing. I'm having difficulty keeping up with the differences.

Basically, I'm hearing you both feel the need to self design because you're not finding precisely what you want in a stock plan. You'll never find precisely what you want in a stock plan, but it can serve as a strong, balanced base for your dream ship.

Construction methods aside, the are a few ways around the design spiral. I generally, pick a target displacement range, length and hull shape. Dave your 3,500 lb. boat is certainly possible, but it will require some clever engineering to keep the weight down and you'll be quite limited with what you can do with the narrow interior. From experience I can tell you that a 28' LWL with about 4' 6" WL beam will be in this range, but you'll have very little margin. The 28' LWL NIS is 7,700 pounds with about 3,400 in ballast. This is about right for a moderately dressed cruising vessel of this size and configuration. You could decrease the amount of accommodation, by decreased internal volume which will reduce the displacement, but you lose accommodation space.

I guess the point I'm getting at is there are a lot of subtle decisions and compromises that must be kept in mind for every design. The sharpie has peculiarities specific to it's type. An understanding of these as well as the design fundamentals are necessary for a reasonable expectation of success. FreeShip (or DeftShip) are wonderful tools, but don't tell you if something is good or bad, just the volumetric results of your efforts. An example would be how do you know what amount of rocker to employ (and why) and what shape. Or do you know why the NIS designs look boxy or high roofed. I understand why Bruce has these this way and it's a good approach, considering what he was after with the design. Even Chapelle (a man I personally knew) understood the limitations of the sharpie and mentions most in he's books.

I'm not trying to talk you out of a 30' self designed sharpie, but I'm not convinced that you understand the type sufficiently to successfully design a deep water yacht. This makes me considerably more nervous then someone interested in designing an 16' pocket yacht.

In this vain, it's often much easier to use a stock plan as a base for modification. Assuming you don't move too far out of the box, most things will still be in order. I've seen Ted Brewer's sharpie without the pinky boards and it's a much better looking boat and 5,500 lbs. is the "light" displacement for this craft. In the 3 ton range would be reasonable for this size craft. Knowing you displacement and length, you can develop a rocker to suit the anticipated wave train or use the one worked out in a stock plan. Scantling issues will generally be sorted out. Who would know you used a 28' base (for example) respaced the station molds so it was 30' and designed a new rig, cabin and accommodation arrangements around the new, longer boat.

If it was me, with limited design experience I'd find a fairly fat 26' or 28' sharpie and respace the station molds. You'd have a leaner ship, with better stability, slightly more displacement, more interior volume and you could go insane designing a new deck, rig, accommodations, making it an all new boat without fear she'll embarrass the crap out of you on launch day (it happens, I can recite names). This is in fact pretty much what I did on my first build. Don't space the station molds more the 10%, 15% at most and you'll be safe, plus enough engineering left over to make anyone bald and wishing for a frontal lobotomy with a kitchen spoon.

[davesg]

I'm a big fan of stock plans, I can find a lot to love in just about any boat, my reasons for drawing up my own really are 'just because.'

I picked 30' as an arbitrary length to start with, it gives the length for the interior I want without getting completely out of hand. We could just as easily add a transom and lose two feet of the stern and make it a 28 or lose the standing space forward and make it a 26. I am of the thinking that the longer the better, all else being equal, and sharpies are a type that seem to do well long and narrow with light displacement. The displacement I'm shooting for (about 3500 lbs) reflects the intent of this design as a big skiff with two cuddies and room for three to bunk out (not counting the cockpit.) The Norfolk Island Sharpies are certainly wonderful designs, but its the 23 that looks closest to my thinking for this design (stretched of course), other than the 18 I don't see displacement listed for any of them so I don't really know how that relates to my thinking on this one.

I don't want to get hung up on accommodations here. Sitting headroom and the berths shown are the only sticking points, the large hatches supply the standing space, they are almost more like a sliding top rather than real companionway hatches.

This absolutely isn't meant to be a 'deep water' boat! Coastal gunkholing in Florida and surround waters for vacation sails is the intended use. From personal experience I would consider the Bahamas and Tortugas to fit into that description as well. This is a fair weather boat, not some survive-anything go-anywhere boat. Like a big skiff with two cuddies.

Mystic is a great design, but too big, too complicated. Instead of the standing ketch rig I'm interested in a free standing set up, instead of plywood on frame I'd like a stitch and glue type frameless construction. I don't have anything against either of those features, but they aren't what I want this time around.

This design could just as well be an open boat with three cockpits and sleeping on the seats, the deck houses are meant to enclose that space but not create a real walking around, living aboard type interior, just sitting headroom and standing under the hatches.

I've restored boats, modified existing designs, and stuck with spec, this time I want to design from scratch. I am lacking experience but in order to gain that experience I am working through this design. I realize this boat will not be as 'good' a boat as a professional, proven design might be, but this isn't about perfection or performance its my first attempt, its about floating right side up and sailing forward rather than backward.

DelftShip is a really nice program and the main reason I'm using it is for the developed panels it can unfold but I wouldn't expect it to design that boat. I think I understand the design motivation of most of the boats cited, this one is a bit different though, if I wanted a fuller interior then more draft, displacement, and higher freeboard would make sense but I'd really just like a big day sailor with an interior made possible solely by virtue of its length.

I've read Chapelle's discussions of sharpies as well as any others I could find. (With the glaring omission of Parker's Sharpies book, which is on order.) Monroe's Egret has been an inspiration as well as Presto though of course I don't completely buy into all the gushing praise for those boats I do think they were something special for their intended uses.

Attached are some updated lines. I reduced the forward rocker, widened the bottom and generally massaged some things. The shear just doesn't look right to me and the bottom doesn't seem right either. Any suggestions?

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2979/30sharpielinesplan.jpg

[frank smith]

This is better , I would want more freeboard . It is starting to look like an Egret . While the flair does provide a cushion of buoyancy I dont think it is good for speed .

[frank smith]

I also think the bow angle is a little shallow , might have a strong weather helm.
I try to think of them at 15-20% heel . and look at the chine in relation to a diagonal . But it is basically all in Chapelles .

Hve you thought about rudder and center board yet.

[davesg]

The centerboard trunk would run from about 10' to 16' aft of the stem. The CLR for the board is at about 14' aft of stem and about 2'4" below static waterline, with board down draft of about 4'6". The trunk is set off to stbd by about six inches to get the main mast step on the centerline.

I'm really interested in some similar designs that have used a smaller second centerboard aft for more area and balance. I don't think its needed here since I think there is enough area in the main board but its something to think about.

I had originally drawn in a kick-up dinghy style rudder hanging on the stern. The only real sharpie I have sailed was a friend's 19 footer and the low aspect ratio rudder felt really strange to me but one would fit under the stern here. The stern hung rudder would just be easier to build, use less hardware, and unless someone can tell me why its a bad idea, I think it would perform better as well.

The question of whether flair is good or not comes down to whether you're comparing it to pushing out the deck or pushing out the chine. To my mind you can make it work wither way, flared like a dory or slab sided like a Bolger design. Personally, I like the flare, but maybe a little more forward?

Could you explain the 'bow angle' for me a little? The angle in plan made by the sides coming together at the bow? Or something to do with the rocker on the bottom?

Thanks for the help,
David

[gonzo]

It is really fine at the bow and with a lot of rocker. That is a design that will be extremely finicky on the longitudinal loading. Also, running will tend to bury the bow.

[davesg]

Ah, I see exactly what you're saying, I'll work on it some more tonight and post again when I have something new.

David

[frank smith]

I'm not sure about the rocker, 3/8" to the foot would give a light craft , and fast ,1/2" to the foot is what is about average, 5/8 works out nicely for a loaded cruising sharpie , it all depends on what you are looking for.

[troy2000]

If it was me, with limited design experience I'd find a fairly fat 26' or 28' sharpie and respace the station molds. You'd have a leaner ship, with better stability, slightly more displacement, more interior volume and you could go insane designing a new deck, rig, accommodations, making it an all new boat without fear she'll embarrass the crap out of you on launch day (it happens, I can recite names). This is in fact pretty much what I did on my first build. Don't space the station molds more the 10%, 15% at most and you'll be safe, plus enough engineering left over to make anyone bald and wishing for a frontal lobotomy with a kitchen spoon.

PAR, everything in a well-designed boat is interconnected and balanced. When I've tried just 'tweaking' an existing one, I haven't been happy with the results.

I'd rather take several boats I like, and turn out a consensus design that's somewhere in the middle of what I like about their plans. And it's worked for me so far, on the few smaller boats I've built.

I should probably have held off posting until I had something substantial in the way of a design or model to show, but I got all excited when I realized, "my God! There's a place online where I can talk to people about what I'm getting ready to do.":D

add: I'm not saying I live and work surrounded by fiberglass-worshipping Philistines who have no idea what I'm talking about. But one evening after work a few years ago I was busy knocking together a flat-bottomed canoe, from some scraps of 3/8" CD shear panel, 1x2 Douglas fir furring strips and other miscellaneous scraps, all dug out of a dumpster (desperation; I was 600 miles from home). A framing carpenter stopped on the way to his pickup to ask in an incredulous tone, "yore buildin' a boat outa wood?? How ya gonna keep the worter out?!?

[frank smith]

How are the sharpie designs going ?

[YK GEO]

Dave,

The basic sharpie design is pretty forgiving, as long as you stay within the general rules recorded by Chapelle, and keep the curves fair and gentle. As to building the boat, have a look at my little boat I knocked together in an afternoon with the only plans in my noggin. It's at the thread "Sharpie skiff - Chapelle's rules". Sometimes we make small boat designing and building way more complicated than it really is.

For the size you're building, take good advice as to strength requirements. The sharpie hull type racks and twists easily, so you need plywood bulkheads and corner reinforcements to keep it in shape. Also longitudinal stringers to prevent the plywood panels, esp the bottom, from curving in. Torturing in a bit (say 1/2 inch) of transverse curve in the bottom helps a lot. Build it flat, then force the curve in and secure it with framing. If you're building taped seam, force in the bottom curve before gluing the chines together. My current project will be built upright in about 4 female molds with the curve sawn into the molds. I'll screw the bottom to the molds giving me the longitudinal and transverse bottom curves with everything held in place for lining up the sides. That way the interior of the boat will be wide open for taping, installing stringers and bulkhead, etc. Once the hull is all stuck together, unscrew the bottom from the molds, flip it over and do the outside.

Have you read Munro's book "The Commodore's Story"? Not a lot of pictures and no plans for Munroe's boats, but a good read.

Good luck with your project.

Geo

[gonzo]

The lowest part of the sheer should be about the middle so the bow doesn't look like a needle

[davesg]

I've tweaked the lines a bit, a little more freeboard, more beam fwd. I think there is too much rocker but I'm not sure how to balance keeping the stem and sterns above the static waterlines but still have the depth for the displacement the boat needs. Right now its a bit less than the 1/2" per foot of rocker. Any ideas there?

Geo - I've read your sharpie thread a couple of times and you make good points on the structure. I've only taken a cursory look at the structure, there are four full width bulkheads sketched in and the interior will all be structural. The biggest problem I see is there is 7' about amidships that doesn't have any full beam structure other than the deck house. I was going to use a mold or two there for getting the panels in the right place but I am a little concerned about torque and bending. I'll know more once I take another lap around the design spiral.

I haven't read the Commodore's Story, haven't found a copy but I have read 'The Good Little Ship' and what else I could find on Presto and Egret.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2979/30sharpielinesplan.jpg

[troy2000]

How are the sharpie designs going ?

Well, I went out yesterday and bought a pile of basswood, and some 0.8mm birch plywood. I decided I was wasting my time trying to tell Delftship how the boat should be shaped. I don't have enough knowledge and experience to force a design into it.

Instead, I'm going to do what I've done in the past with smaller projects: put some wood together, and let it tell me how the boat's going to be shaped. Then I'll start comparing it to established designs, and make sure I'm somewhere in the norm. Since I'm an amateur, I have no burning desire to live or die on the cutting edge of design.....

Right now I'm just waiting for a couple of Chapelle books to show up in the mail. I have books by other authors, and it gradually dawned on me: since every single one of them references Chapelle somewhere, it would probably behoove me to look up his stuff firsthand.

I'm wrestling with LOA (a hazard of having too much time on your hands to poke at things...). Given the narrow beam of sharpies, it looks to me like I could really use up to 32' to comfortably stuff in a V-berth, a pair of settee berths, an enclosed w/c and a usable galley. Plus enough cockpit (and supporting hull aft) to let a few friends hang out topsides and enjoy the trip....

On the other hand, 26' to 28' sure sounds a magnitude or two cheaper to build. Not to mention easier to tow, launch and recover.

[frank smith]

http://schooneribis.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=4

If you have not seen this check it out , Here is Parkers straight forward build ,
basic simple and strong . Note that he has created an egg crate type structure, and integrated the tanks .

[kayaker50]

Troy2000, are you building a model? If so, I'd like to know how you make a scale model from scratch. Thanks, Chip.

[frank smith]

I have used thin plywood from the hobby store , makes it easy to lay out full size .

[troy2000]

http://schooneribis.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=4

If you have not seen this check it out , Here is Parkers straight forward build ,
basic simple and strong . Note that he has created an egg crate type structure, and integrated the tanks .

Very impressive. Of course, that's quite a bit more boat than I plan on building. But it's pretty much the same construction that I'll be using: sides wrapped around bulkheads.

Troy2000, are you building a model? If so, I'd like to know how you make a scale model from scratch. Thanks, Chip.

Um....well, I cut pieces to scale, and put them together like I was building the real thing. The last model of a 30' sharpie I built was 1"=1'-0", but it was a little small for working out the details. So this one will be 1 1/2"=1'-0". That means every 1/8 of an inch will equal one inch...which is going to make for a ridiculously large model, almost four feet long. I'm making it that big partly so I can do some reverse engineering and layout after I establish the basic hull: i.e., cut and fit parts, then measure them.

Of course I'm working backwards, compared to people taking dimensions off a set of plans. Instead of taking an established overall size and shape and seeing what size parts it takes to get it, I'm arbitrarily setting the size and shape of the sides and the controlling bulkheads, and wrapping said sides around said bulkheads to see what I get. Then I'll modify one or the other as necessary until I'm happy with the results, and go from there with the details.

I've built models strictly to scale from plans in the past, though. The first one I did was a Grand Bank dory from John Gardner's The Dory Book, years ago. I had a nice soft, even-grained piece of Ponderosa pine left over from some bookshelves, so I used my table saw and a planer blade to rip out a pile of scale lumber. Then I duplicated every piece in Gardner's plans, at 1"=1'-0". It was pretty much like working with balsa wood, and a whole lot cheaper.

I also built a Caddo Lake Bateau and a few other models of small boats over the years, including several of my own design before I built the real thing. It's the same idea as a traditional boat or ship builder doing a half model to take the lines from, carried to an extreme.:p

And the 45" model I'm going to wind up with this time? Sorry, but my boys aren't getting this one until I'm dead. I'll probably turn it into an r/c model. I'll have to add some ballast, and replace the pivoting centerboard with a larger, fixed keel for the sake of stability, since there won't be a scale helmsman on board with full-scale judgment....

[kayaker50]

troy2000, I for one would like to see pix of the model as it progresses. I like the idea of dealing with a real object instead of an image on a monitor. Chip.

[troy2000]

troy2000, I for one would like to see pix of the model as it progresses. I like the idea of dealing with a real object instead of an image on a monitor. Chip.

I'll start posting as soon as I have something to show, Chip; I replaced my defunct digital camera this week for just that purpose. But it'll be a little while. I'm still waiting for a couple of Chapelle's books to show up in the mail, so I can study his designs first-hand before starting mine. Between Parker, Gardner, Monroe and others I already have a decent idea what I want, but it can't hurt to study the classic work boats Chapelle recorded.

[kayaker50]

Yes, I have Chapelle and Parker. A 27-30 foot sharpie is in my future too. Chip.

[troy2000]

Yes, I have Chapelle and Parker. A 27-30 foot sharpie is in my future too. Chip.

I feel about half-crippled; I'm used to having a full-sized drafting table set up to play on. I usually kind of bounce back and forth between it and models or templates, when figuring out anything from rowboats to trebuchets.

But right now I'm spending a good chunk of my life working away from home and living in a motor home, and no longer have a 'man cave' back at the house. It's been overrun by the wife and sons for their own nefarious purposes, and that big old oak-framed drafting table 'took up half the room, and you never use it anyway..." So I'll be relying even more than usual on model-building for this project.

I'm also looking at the layout of the motor home, though. If I bought a smaller, basic computer desk and ditched the recliner, I might be able to fit one of my old drafting tables in behind the driver's seat. It isn't like I spend much time entertaining anyway. Mostly, it's just me and a few beer cans.....

[gonzo]

Seems like you are in good company

[troy2000]

Well, ratz.

The two Chapelle books showed up in the mail, and they're chock-full of information. But the boat plans which were my main reason for buying the books have been shrunk down to fit book pages that are about six inches by nine inches. They're literally unreadable, even using a strong pair of magnifying glasses.

I guess my only hope is to take them with me when I go back to work, and see if they're legible when I blow them up on the copier.

If that doesn't work, maybe I can get the drawings elsewhere. Does anyone know whether the Smithsonian owns the drawings Chapelle used in his books?

Better yet, are there coffee table sized issues of these books available anywhere, new or used?


edit: never mind; I just answered my own question. I looked it up, and all the plans shown in the two books are catalogued in the Smithsonian's Ship Plan List (American merchant ships and small craft). That runs twenty bucks. I don't know how much the black line reproductions of the plans themselves are individually, but I doubt it'll kill my budget to buy a few of them. And it beats going blind, trying to study the miniature plans in the books.

[gonzo]

The table of offsets is there. With a flat bottom boat you only need a few points anyway.

[troy2000]

The table of offsets is there. With a flat bottom boat you only need a few points anyway.
I'm not looking at his offsets to build a boat; I was looking for a quick comparison of the hulls for such things as where the maximum beam is located, where the forward flat run starts blending into the midships rocker of the bottom, the height of the stem, etc.

And I'm not kidding when I say I literally cannot read the plans, including the offsets--even using reading glasses much stronger than the ones I usually wear. They've been scaled down until the distance between perpendiculars for one of his 35' sharpies, for example, is 5-1/4 inches.

The next time I head into town, I'll stop off at a drug store and buy a big magnifying glass. Hopefully, the numbering and lettering in the plans are sharp enough to be legible when they're blown up big enough to read. If so, I can probably blow them up with a good copier, and we have one at work.

[messabout]

One of the most useful tools of the model builder is an architects scale. For those unfamiliar with such an item, it is a measuring stick with the marks and numbers reduced in various sizes. There are scales of 3/4, 1inch, 1.5 inch, 3 inch and sometimes you can find one with a 2 inch scale. With that tool you can lay out the model without much recourse to the calculator. Many office supply stores have the architect scales.

If you intend to play in the water with the model you will need to see to it that you have scale weight. Calculating model weight is simple enough. Use the cube of the scale for a denominator of the weight of the full sized boat. If the scale you are using is 1.5 inches to the foot then the scale is one eighth. 12"/1.5" = 8 and 3" to the foot will make it quarterscale or one fourth. For one eighth scale just multiply 8 x 8x 8 = 512 Say the real boat is to weigh 2000 pounds....divide.....2000/512 = 3.90 pounds or 62.5 ounces. When building to small scale like one inch to the foot, the model is not easy to build light enough. One inch scale has a cube of (12^3) = 1728 and so that 2000 pound boat would need to be 2000/1728 = 1.16 pounds or 18.5 ounces. You can see that the advantage is for the larger scales. I usually build at either 2 inch or 3 inch scale and can therefore be less concerned about the weight of the materials that I use.

[gonzo]

I have those books and it doesn't seem so hard to read the plans. Make a copy and enlarge it.

[troy2000]

Thanks for the info, messabout. I'm quite familiar with architect's scales; I was a general contractor for years, and drew my own plans most of the time for everything from patio decks to houses.

But I've never tried to deal with calculating scale weight for anything fancier than a trebuchet counterweight before, and your explanation of how to do so is very helpful. Thank you.

[troy2000]

I have those books and it doesn't seem so hard to read the plans. Make a copy and enlarge it.

Perhaps you'd like to come over and read them to me then, if you have no problem with them.

Maybe the illustrations are a little clearer or larger in the editions you have. But I've been buying books with boat plans in them for probably thirty years, and these are the first ones I've ever owned that I can't read.

And yes, I think I've mentioned at least twice now that I was going to try to enlarge them with a copier when I get back to work. If the images in the books are sharp enough, that'll work.

[gonzo]

I have a 1969 edition and the offsets and plans are really clear.

[troy2000]

I'm not sure what year these are. They're both published by Norton. The latest copyright renewal in the Boatbuilding book is 1994, with a forward by Jon Wilson, founder of Woodenboat Magazine. The other one has nothing in it but the original 1951 copyright date. But it's obviously a new edition.

They're both much smaller than the editions I remember looking at years ago in a bookstore. Those were about the size of my laptop, like the editions I have of books by John Gardner, Edwin Monk and others.

[gonzo]

That sucks

[troy2000]

That sucks

I agree. Somehow, taking plans that were probably originally drawn on 22"x30" sheets, and fitting them onto a 6"x9" book page printed on fairly coarse paper, does something to the legibility...

[Earl Boebert]

I'd suggest scanning them at 1200 dpi with the scanning software set for color photographs (I strongly recommend VuScan). Then you can use a graphics program to reduce the intensity of the paper colors and increase the intensity of the ink colors. I've succeeding in bringing up some really reduced plans that way.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Earl

[kayaker50]

I know what you mean about the print being damm small. There are several offset tables in the very back of American Small Sailing Craft which are larger than the offsets in the text. But I agree, it should be a coffe table size book! Chip.

[troy2000]

I'd suggest scanning them at 1200 dpi with the scanning software set for color photographs (I strongly recommend VuScan). Then you can use a graphics program to reduce the intensity of the paper colors and increase the intensity of the ink colors. I've succeeding in bringing up some really reduced plans that way.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Earl
That's a good suggestion.

There's a fancy copy/fax/email/scan thingie the size of a desk in the front office where I work. Starting tomorrow evening, I'll be working three 12-hour graveyard shifts; with a little bit of luck I can get out of the control room long enough to play with it. Then I can email the results to myself, and tweak the pics at my leisure.

Or I may not even have to do all that; with a little more luck, just a straight copy enlargement might do the trick. But it's nice to have the option.

Several years ago when I was looking at Woodenboat's reconstruction of Egret, I took the book with the study plan down to a copy center. The gal fiddled with her machines for a while until she was able to hand me some beautifully legible copies of the study plan, blown up to a scale of precisely 1"=1'-0". Then she charged me only for those copies, and wouldn't even let me pay her for the trial runs where she had wasted paper adjusting her settings.

Unfortunately, when I swung by a year or two later the copy shop had been replaced by a bookstore.

[troy2000]

Another random thought: maybe the reason shaping the bottom of a sharpie hull so it has a flat run forward, a rocker amidships, and a straight or almost straight run aft works so well is because it approximates a shallow parabola?

Yes, I know....I should post first, then drink.:D

[wardd]

couldn't you import the image into a cad package and develop xyz dims from 3 views?

may not be perfect but with some practice close enough

you'll have to know how to scale the image

[frank smith]

Another random thought: maybe the reason shaping the bottom of a sharpie hull so it has a flat run forward, a rocker amidships, and a straight or almost straight run aft works so well is because it approximates a shallow parabola?

Yes, I know....I should post first, then drink.:D

That maybe be a matter of how they were built . Forward of the center board case they just ran a plank out to the bow . Not terribly complex way to deal with it . Also when looking at a working sharpie remember that they carried a lot of weight aft of the case . So think of them loaded down 4" or more .

[troy2000]

That maybe be a matter of how they were built . Forward of the center board case they just ran a plank out to the bow . Not terribly complex way to deal with it . Also when looking at a working sharpie remember that they carried a lot of weight aft of the case . So think of them loaded down 4" or more .

According to Chapelle and others, sharpie bottoms were quite deliberately shaped that way for performance. It wasn't just happenstance or a byproduct of the construction method.

[gonzo]

Hey troy2000 if your enlargement doesn't work I can email you a copy of mine.

[PAR]

You have to remember when Chapelle wrote about sharpies, he was talking about working craft, that often would have a ton or three of oysters or fish to bring home. The shapes used in these sharpies can't be taken for the shapes used in modern craft of similar model. The reason the "run" tucks up fairly quickly is to keep the stern clear when loaded, other wise it'll drag it's butt, which kills speed. Try not to read too much into the lines of these antique craft, without veering too far from what their primary purpose was, because they didn't.

[troy2000]

Hey troy2000 if your enlargement doesn't work I can email you a copy of mine.

Thanks for the offer, gonzo. I'll be at work tonight, and should be able to try copying and enlarging sometime before I get off, unless things get hectic. I'm an operator at a natural gas compressor (pumping) station, and my job pretty much matches the definition of combat sometimes: long periods of boredom, punctuated by moments of sheer terror.

[troy2000]

You have to remember when Chapelle wrote about sharpies, he was talking about working craft, that often would have a ton or three of oysters or fish to bring home. The shapes used in these sharpies can't be taken for the shapes used in modern craft of similar model. The reason the "run" tucks up fairly quickly is to keep the stern clear when loaded, other wise it'll drag it's butt, which kills speed. Try not to read too much into the lines of these antique craft, without veering too far from what their primary purpose was, because they didn't.

One of the appeals of the classic working sharpie to me is that ability to take a load without dragging its butt. The one I build will probably be single-handed or sailed with one other person for crew a lot of the time, but I'm sure the cockpit will occasionally have a crowd in it, with people climbing in and out of the cabin.

Chapelle also talked about racing sharpies, and how they were built a little shallower and a little broader in the beam. It looks to me like those are the directions I'll head when I diverge from the classic working lines, without pushing beyond the normal bounds of the traditional hulls.

[PAR]

You'll be much happier if you design the boat for the primary use and live with some butt dragging when the crowd comes aboard. The "race" versions of the sharpie have fairly different lines, particularly aft. The run is straightened, the sides much less flare, displacement carried aft, etc.

[troy2000]

You'll be much happier if you design the boat for the primary use and live with some butt dragging when the crowd comes aboard. The "race" versions of the sharpie have fairly different lines, particularly aft. The run is straightened, the sides much less flare, displacement carried aft, etc.
Since the classic working hull was designed to carry heavy loads and I'll rarely be doing that, is there any advantage in sticking closely to it instead of building something closer to a racing hull?

[PAR]

Nope, build the racer and let it be a dog when you have 5 aboard.

[troy2000]

Hey troy2000 if your enlargement doesn't work I can email you a copy of mine.

Looks like I shouldn't have been lumping the Boatbuilding book in with the American Small Sailing Craft book like I did, gonzo. At the time I was bellyaching, I had spent most of my time with my nose in the second one, and I'll stand by what I said about it being illegible. But the Boatbuilding book is printed on smoother, almost semi-gloss paper, and I can read its drawings in good light. I blew up the plans for the 30' cruising sharpie this evening for study purposes, and they turned out very nicely.

I haven't had a chance to try enlarging any drawings from the Sailing Craft book yet. I doubt they'll turn out nearly as well, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[PAR]

When you enlarge plans with a photo copier or an industrial camera (not used much any more except on big stuff in the printing industry), you will run into an interesting issue called lens distortion. In fact, if the image (in the book) is taken from a set of plans, it was reduced in size with an industrial camera (enter the first generation of lens distortion), when you re-enlarge the image, you add more distortion to the lines drawing (or what ever). This is usually noticeable around the edges of the image where lines clearly no long are straight.

It's caused by the image perimeter passing through the edges of the camera lens at such an angle that "parallax" occurs. A quick way to tell is to place a straight edge on the LWL and see if it's straight all the way across or better is to see if the waterlines are all parallel (they will not be if it's an image from a book). This isn't a big issue on small changes in image size, just large ones. For example, lets say the original plans were 36" wide and it was reduced to 8.3% of it's original size (3" so it would fit in a book), the distortion would be substantial and all the curves suspect (a subtle but noticeable "fish eye lens" effect on the whole image). If you decided to reverse the situation and enlarge the book image to 36" again, this would be a 1,200% increase on the size found in the book.

If you attempted to build a class racer from a set of plans derived this way, the measuring committee wouldn't pass you, because of all the deviations in the shapes that will occur. Not to mention the lines drawing that looks so nice and fine in the book will now have lines a 1/4" thick.

[troy2000]

When you enlarge plans with a photo copier or an industrial camera (not used much any more except on big stuff in the printing industry), you will run into an interesting issue called lens distortion. In fact, if the image (in the book) is taken from a set of plans, it was reduced in size with an industrial camera (enter the first generation of lens distortion), when you re-enlarge the image, you add more distortion to the lines drawing (or what ever). This is usually noticeable around the edges of the image where lines clearly no long are straight.

It's caused by the image perimeter passing through the edges of the camera lens at such an angle that "parallax" occurs. A quick way to tell is to place a straight edge on the LWL and see if it's straight all the way across or better is to see if the waterlines are all parallel (they will not be if it's an image from a book). This isn't a big issue on small changes in image size, just large ones. For example, lets say the original plans were 36" wide and it was reduced to 8.3% of it's original size (3" so it would fit in a book), the distortion would be substantial and all the curves suspect (a subtle but noticeable "fish eye lens" effect on the whole image). If you decided to reverse the situation and enlarge the book image to 36" again, this would be a 1,200% increase on the size found in the book.

If you attempted to build a class racer from a set of plans derived this way, the measuring committee wouldn't pass you, because of all the deviations in the shapes that will occur. Not to mention the lines drawing that looks so nice and fine in the book will now have lines a 1/4" thick.

That makes sense to me. But surprisingly enough, when I enlarged the plans for sharpies out of these books from five inches to over a foot, the long lines. were so straight I could split them with a metal straight edge, and stay in the lines from end to end.

I wouldn't want to push my luck and keep copying copies, though. We have some forms around here that are copies of copies of copies, back for several years. The lines are thick and mangled, the printing waves across the pages like flags in a breeze, etc.

By the way, I did get around to trying to make larger copies of the drawings in American Small Sailing Craft, and it's as I figured: while the lines and construction details are easier to see, the words and numbers I couldn't read straight from the book are also illegible when blown up. The paper they printed the book on is just too coarse and soft, and the letters and numerals turned into blobs.

Ah well....I'm not trying to build directly from plans in the book anyway. I'm just studying them to get a feel for what the general parameters of the type are.

[frank smith]

I thought I would add this picture of a Akin sharpie. John Atkin knew the type very well, and here he has designed a cruising one . You could debate that it is more of a large skiff , but a sharpie is just that.
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Matty-3.gif


http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Matty.html

[Earl Boebert]

Dealing with distorted plans is a way of life for those of us who seek to preserve and replicate old model yachts. Even when you get an old full-size plan there will be distortion owing to the uneven shrinkage lengthwise vs. vertically; on old blueprints this can be 5% or more.

The old-timer's trick, which works remarkably well, is to lay out the stated intervals for stations, waterlines, and buttocks on a fresh drawing. Then cut the distorted plan apart on these lines and glue the pieces down on the new grids. Fair the lines again, using plenty of diagonals, and you'll get about as close as possible to the designer's original intent; remembering that, especially with models, the "real" hull appears during fairing on the building board.

Cheers,

Earl

[troy2000]

I thought I would add this picture of a Akin sharpie. John Atkin knew the type very well, and here he has designed a cruising one . You could debate that it is more of a large skiff , but a sharpie is just that.
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Matty-3.gif


http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Matty.html

Chapelle has a double-ended 30' cruising sharpie in his Boatbuilding book. Unlike Monroe's Egret or the working sharpies, both ends are roughly on the waterline at the chines.

It has practical, if somewhat spartan, accommodations for a cruiser. I'll be referring to it while I design mine. But I guarantee one thing: the head will not be a bucket at the forward end of the cabin between berths, open to the cabin.....I'll do a portable toilet that can be carried ashore and dumped, and provide a private cubicle to one side of the companionway.

Chapelle's cruiser sharpie also incorporates what he called a "Dutch galley." A kerosene stove and a sink are built into a portable box, with a couple of drawers under the sink. The part with the stove is metal lined and insulated, of course. When the galley is in use the lid folds up, and wings fold out to create counter space. The sink drain has a flexible hose that clips to the side of the box; you drop the end into a bucket and drain the sink after you're done with it. When not in use, the box gets stashed on a shelf.

It is tempting to think I might be able to come up with something similar that sets on a chart table when in use, and stashes out of the way the rest of the time....of course, mine would probably have a stainless-steel bar sink and a small propane stove.

If I have time at work tonight, I'll scan Chapelle's drawings and post them. They're the only detailed representations I've seen of a cruising sharpie from 'back in the day.'

[frank smith]

I have seen plans for for the Chapelles double ended sharpie , Brewers Mystic
is very similar . I like the look of Chapelles better . Not having the flair of egret , it will be faster and handle better, IMO . Very cool boat .
If I were going to do it I think I would add a shallow box keel to hold the ballast and move the center board out to the side a little .

[troy2000]

I have seen plans for for the Chapelles double ended sharpie , Brewers Mystic
is very similar . I like the look of Chapelles better . Not having the flair of egret , it will be faster and handle better, IMO . Very cool boat .
If I were going to do it I think I would add a shallow box keel to hold the ballast and move the center board out to the side a little .

I had temporarily forgotten about the Mystic Sharpie; I'll have to compare Woodenboat's study plan for it to Chapelle's double-ender tonight. But now that you've mentioned it, the one was probably the inspiration for the other.

[gonzo]

I owned a 34' version that Chapelle did. They are very fast off the wind, even planing. Upwind they are fair. I was very pleased with that boat.

[frank smith]

I owned a 34' version that Chapelle did. They are very fast off the wind, even planing. Upwind they are fair. I was very pleased with that boat.


Was that a double ended boat ? How was the rudder ? I have heard that the sharpie rudders were not really good . I understand that for a working sharpie ,getting the rudder out of the way was a good thing , and while working an oyster bed you could use it to swing the stern around over the bed ,perhaps using the center board to anchor the boat . I am sure that they would turn in there own length ,and that would be good working in the narrow inlets of Long Island Sound . But I wonder if a conventional stern hung rudder might be better for a yacht version of the sharpie . It would be nice if there was a way to have a spade rudder that could be raised and lowered . I suppose you could cut a slot for the rudder ,but then you loose that advantages of an under hung rudder.

[gonzo]

They are simple rudders that do the job. Every improvement to make the sharpie more modern has more drawbacks than advantages. The sharpie rudders can be lifted for shallow water and beaching. Also, they are under the hull so won't ventilate. Wide and shallow rudders can turn at higher angles without stalling too.

[troy2000]

Well, we grow too soon old, and late smart. I just did a google search for used books, and found out the original edition of Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft was published as a quarto back in 1951. In other words, it was about 9"x12", instead of the octavio (6"x9") size I just bought. And the sad part is that there are used ones in good shape on the internet, for about what I paid for the dinky new edition. So I guess I'm going to pay twice, because I'd really like to have the full-sized book.

More interestingly, I found out Chapelle also had a book published back in 1936, that was titled just American Sailing Craft, instead of American Small Sailing Craft. It was also quarto sized. And although I haven't managed to run down any detailed descriptions, I gather it was also oriented toward smaller craft rather than ships, and was full of drawings. There are copies of it available also, for a reasonable price. So it's a good thing payday is tomorrow, because that makes two books I need to order.....gotta love the internet. It's a brand-new way to keep me broke.

And another factoid: while I was at it I looked up John Gardner's Dory Book, because the copy I have is falling apart. I was shocked to find out it's no longer in print, and the going prices for a used hard cover ranged well over a hundred bucks. Even the paperback versions were about $75.00, for crying out loud. Guess I'll just keep sticking the pages of mine back inside the cover as they fall out....Woodenboat is coming out with a new edition in December, but I'll bet it's going to be a little book instead of the original full-sized one.

[troy2000]

Troy2000, are you building a model? If so, I'd like to know how you make a scale model from scratch. Thanks, Chip.

I'm not claiming this is the recommended procedure for building models; I've never taken any classes or gotten any advice. But I've started on the model for my sharpie, and this is how I do it.

I usually start with a 1x3 or 1x4 board for a strongback, with a centerline and stations penciled in. If I'm making a model from existing plans, I tack a cleat at each station. I set a baseline above the hull instead of below it to get the height of my molds, and attach them with pushpins.

On this one I'm doing it bass-awkwards. I started with a couple of sides the shape I wanted (a straight taper), and left a little extra on each end to tweak the stem plumb and the transom to a nice angle. Then I used packing tape to fasten the stems, wrapped them around a temporary center mold, and taped them to the transom. I'll add some spreaders as I go, to modify the beam and teak the shape of the bottom. You'll notice the spreaders aren't really doing anything useful; I just stuck a couple in to give the general idea. I'll replace them with spreaders at future bulkhead locations, when I get back to work on it.

When I'm happy with the shape, I'll tape heck out of things. Then I'll add an inner stem, along with bulkheads fore and aft for watertight compartments, a bulkhead at each end of the cabin, and one between the cockpit and the bridge deck. For that, I normally use Crazy Glue and woodworker's glue (aliphetic resin), depending on what I'm gluing.

When the bulkheads are in place, I'll notch them and slip in chines and sheer clamps, and a plank keelson, cover the bottom, take the model off the strongback, and go from there.

The originals used planks on edge for the keelson, to stiffen the long, narrow hulls and keep them from hogging. But since I'm using plywood on the real one, I don't think I need to.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/013.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/014.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/015-3-1.jpg

[boat fan]

Are those sides straight edges ?

Always amazed how straight panels with flair give nice sheer lines.

[PAR]

Straight topside plank edges usually give you a hollow or flat spot along the sheer and often a powder horn look too.

Free form boat building can be a great learning experience.

[boat fan]

Bolger often got it right though .

[troy2000]

Straight topside plank edges usually give you a hollow or flat spot along the sheer and often a powder horn look too.

Free form boat building can be a great learning experience.

Depends on what you're building, and whether you're paying attention. I think problems of the sort you listed are easier to avoid on long, narrow, slab-sided hulls with gentle curves. What I'm doing is almost like playing with oversized fairing battens; fair curves should give me a fair sheer. Or that's the theory, anyway....if they don't, I'll tweak as necessary.

And I'm not building totally free-form; the general parameters of what I'm doing were laid out generations ago, by builders who cranked them out quickly and simply. I've read repeatedly that sharpies are easy to build but hard to design, but I think most of the problems come from trying to push the sharpie form beyond its limitations. People want more beam, more headroom, more freeboard, better tracking, more sail, less heeling, so on and so forth.

It reminds me of what Bolger said about adding sails to rowing dories: if you start modifying a traditional dory design to improve its performance under sail, you eventually wind up with something that isn't a dory hull at all. Which probably means you shouldn't have started with one to begin with.

[troy2000]

Are those sides straight edges ?

Always amazed how straight panels with flair give nice sheer lines.

Yep. They were cut straight, top and bottom.

[kayaker50]

Troy2000, that there is great stuff. Please post more as it progresses. Thanks, Chip.

[Angélique]

I had temporarily forgotten about the Mystic Sharpie; I'll have to compare Woodenboat's study plan for it to Chapelle's double-ender tonight.


1½ years ago there was a Mystic Sharpie for sale in the Netherlands that was pro built in the UK in 1985. It looks like it is the blue and white Mystic that is on Brewer's website. The sale page is still available (http://www.scheepszaak.nl/_schepen/Mystic/) though not for 100%. But the links on the left site of the page and thumbs to the many pictures are still functional.

This Mystic Sharpie with 2" raised freeboard (http://www.kolumbus.fi/larsil/boat_building_eng.html) was built in the archipelago of Espoo near Helsinki in Finland.

Rodger Martin has designed a 30' GRP Presto Sharpie (http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/portfolio.php?item=82) that is being build by the Union River Boat Company (http://unionriverboat.com/).

Regards,
Angel

[Angélique]

White Water Sharpie, Sharp-End 900

This 29½' Egret style sharpie (http://www.whitewatersharpie.com/) is being built in the Netherlands by Rexwinkel Jachtbouw (http://www.rexwinkeljachtbouw.nl/index_bestanden/rexwinkeljachtbouwnieuws.htm) for an astonishing € 129,750.00 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=hp&q=129750+eur+in+usd). Far as I know one built till now.

Initiator of the project + first customer and sales: Frans van der Horst
Designer: Martin de Jager (Martin de Jager Yacht Design)
Builder: Benno Rexwinkel (Rexwinkel Jachtbouw)

If you don't read Dutch or Flemish then this (http://translate.google.com/) could be useful.

Regards,
Angel

P.S.
It is the same price* as Reuel Parker's 45' San Juan Islands Sharpie (http://www.parker-marine.com/brokerage.htm). There is also a blog (http://schooneribis.blogspot.com/) about Reuel's new boat.

* I guess the price of the Dutch boat is inclusive of 19% Dutch VAT and I guess the price of USA boat is VAT exclusive. If so, then the prices are not the same but remarkably close together for such a big difference in size.

[frank smith]

That is completely absurd to me . A simple cheap boat all dressed up like a yacht . What a waste of money . I like the fact , that they opened up the cabin . I assume it has 2 off center boards, they have obviously reduced the flair, and increased the draft . Which is not a bad idea , but it looks more Dutch than American in concept . I know that Bolger did not dig the Egret to much , and moved in the opposite direction. This boat looks more like Brewers boat than Monroes. The ballast ratio looks low to me .
But the price is what really gets me .That is nuts for that boat . But come to think of it ,I have seen norwalk island sharpies , all pimped out and over priced .

[boat fan]

That is completely absurd to me . A simple cheap boat all dressed up as.....
But the price is what really gets me .That is nuts for that boat .

Yes , in a " losing the plot" kind of way.:D


Troy ...I think you are approaching this the right way. Simple.
Spending that little extra time and effort to get that sheer " just " right...
Well worth it...you will be looking at it for a long time after ....

[boat fan]

Nice pic !http://www.scheepszaak.nl/_schepen/Mystic/02%20voor%20ontspannen%20wadscharrelen.jpg

[frank smith]

Nice pic !http://www.scheepszaak.nl/_schepen/Mystic/02%20voor%20ontspannen%20wadscharrelen.jpg

That is beautiful . The boat , the setting , the whole idea .

How much would it cost to build if you kept to the basics ? I would build it the same way that Parker builds his sharpies . But I might try tandom boards . or off center boards . then possible a skeg mounted, balanced rudder .
Very cool boat.

[boat fan]

That is beautiful . The boat , the setting , the whole idea .

With built in " shade sails " no less !:D

Is anyone from the " dare to ..." thread watching ?

[Angélique]

That is beautiful . The boat , the setting , the whole idea .

Yes, beautiful. I'm very sorry that I didn't go after it 1½ years ago. Asking price was € 12,000.--

Regards,
Angel

[boat fan]

You didn`t " dare to ...":D

Just kidding.....

[Angélique]

I assume it has 2 off center boards

No, it has one ballasted centerboard. (‘‘hefkiel’’ in Dutch. I don't know if ‘‘centerboard’’ is a correct translation for what they used)

P.S. I think ‘‘ballasted daggerboard’’ is the correct translation for ‘‘geballaste hefkiel’’. (Dutch ‘‘steekzwaard’’ is in English ‘‘daggerboard’’)

they have obviously reduced the flair

Yes.

and increased the draft

No, the draft is: 0,30 / 1,50 m = 1' / 4' 11"

A remarkable detail is the daggerboard style rudder in a well.

http://www.whitewatersharpie.com/images/alg2.jpg (http://www.whitewatersharpie.com/specificaties.htm)

Regards,
Angel

[frank smith]

A remarkable detail is the daggerboard style rudder is in a well.

http://www.whitewatersharpie.com/images/alg2.jpg (http://www.whitewatersharpie.com/specificaties.htm)

Regards,
Angel
I was wondering if that was a drop down rudder . Good way to get some depth to the rudder . I had thought of that myself , but wondered how to deal with the opening in the bottom . I suppose There could be a round plate that the whole rudder assembly could rotate in .

Do you know if the board is off center ? Perhaps build into the seat .

[troy2000]

Thank you for all the links, Angel. The pictures are a crash course in how to lay out and build the cabin and amenities of a sharpie.:)

[Angélique]

I suppose There could be a round plate that the whole rudder assembly could rotate in .

That could be a solution to get rid of the hole in the bottom that disturbs the water flow. It doesn't have to be watertight if the whole constuction is in a well. But it should have very little friction to maintain the feeling in the rudder. It is complex and expensive, that isn't sharpie like. I don't know if they closed the rudder hole in the bottom of the Sharp-End 900.

Do you know if the board is off center ? Perhaps build into the seat .

I didn't see the boat. But there is nothing about the board being off-center in the previous posted link (http://www.whitewatersharpie.com/) and the attached file (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/37767d1259370216-30-plywood-sharpie-egret-whitewatersharpie-de-waterkampioen.pdf). I think that if the board was off-center that they would have mentioned it, so I presume it is not off-center.

About the board, I edited this into post #93 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/30-plywood-sharpie-30029-7.html#post319022):
P.S. I think ‘‘ballasted daggerboard’’ is the correct translation for ‘‘geballaste hefkiel’’. (Dutch ‘‘steekzwaard’’ is in English ‘‘daggerboard’’)

The attached file speaks of ‘‘geballaste hefkiel’’ and here (http://www.whitewatersharpie.com/specificaties.htm) is stated ‘‘modern profiel steekzwaard’’ these two together translated is ‘‘ballasted modern profiled daggerboard’’.

Regards,
Angel

[troy2000]

I was wondering if that was a drop down rudder . Good way to get some depth to the rudder . I had thought of that myself , but wondered how to deal with the opening in the bottom . I suppose There could be a round plate that the whole rudder assembly could rotate in .

Do you know if the board is off center ? Perhaps build into the seat .

Here's a detailed article on building such a rudder in a well, complete with good photographs.

http://www.epoxyworks.com/18/pdf/rudder.pdf

Basically, there is no hole. The rudder sets in a tub, which fills and seals the well.

I'm impressed, but no way am I getting that fancy on my own boat.

[frank smith]

Thanks Angel , regardless of my opinions about the cast and complexity , the boat is beautifully done . If you are building for resale, it really has to be . A painted ply interior with some wood trim would be fine for me .

If the ballast is in a lifting board then the 650lb. ballast be plenty . Thats a
pretty sharp sharpie

[Angélique]

BTW Frank and others, if you like shallow draft and off-centerboards, I have put up a quest for them (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/where-17014-195.html#post318062) in the playground of this forum. The regular's won't take the bite so perhaps I can drag you guy's into playing with me :)

Please don't react here on this OT message. This is a serious topic :idea: Reactions are invited in the playground :D :D

Regards,
Angel

[frank smith]

For those that have not seen this

[Angélique]

For those that have not seen this (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/37783d1259385495-30-plywood-sharpie-class-lv-ostar-racer.jpeg)

Thats me... Thanks !!!

Regards,
Angel

[johnelliott24]

I really like sharpies but every sharpie I find is heavy. My background is in building very fast beach multis. I have a Tornado that I use as a baseline and have fun building faster/better and slower/worse multis than her. My next project is probably to build a sharpie like center hull for fast cruising that can sail alone as a sharpie but slide into my cat and become a trimaran. As a tri she will be a lot slower than the foiling cat she is in, but still a lot faster than the Farrier tris or other cruising tris. When I want to go for a wild ride she will slide out and moor until I come back and pick her up again. (Thinking about naming her Thunderball after the yacht in the movie that converted into a hydrofoil.) She will also be able to sail with a small two masted rig for classic day sailing. The design is to be like the one proposed in this thread but the hull will weigh about 200 lbs. The difference from this design is that the main hull will be narrow but the stern will be wide so that the hull planes -- so sharpie lines but like a skiff underwater. With 2 short masts, flared sides and a weighted daggerboard she will be tender, but self-righting. As a sharpie this boat should be really easy to trailer and move around. The sharpie designs I see are heavy. Why not make them light? The 30 footer is this thread could easily wight 400 lbs, correct? Would it not be a heck of a lot of fun to sail and trailer at that weight? Has anyone seen this done?
John

[gonzo]

The 30 footer would be more like 2000 pounds. I don't know what kind of materials you are using in your calculations to come up with 200 pounds.

[troy2000]

I really like sharpies but every sharpie I find is heavy. My background is in building very fast beach multis. I have a Tornado that I use as a baseline and have fun building faster/better and slower/worse multis than her. My next project is probably to build a sharpie like center hull for fast cruising that can sail alone as a sharpie but slide into my cat and become a trimaran. As a tri she will be a lot slower than the foiling cat she is in, but still a lot faster than the Farrier tris or other cruising tris. When I want to go for a wild ride she will slide out and moor until I come back and pick her up again. (Thinking about naming her Thunderball after the yacht in the movie that converted into a hydrofoil.) She will also be able to sail with a small two masted rig for classic day sailing. The design is to be like the one proposed in this thread but the hull will weigh about 200 lbs. The difference from this design is that the main hull will be narrow but the stern will be wide so that the hull planes -- so sharpie lines but like a skiff underwater. With 2 short masts, flared sides and a weighted daggerboard she will be tender, but self-righting. As a sharpie this boat should be really easy to trailer and move around. The sharpie designs I see are heavy. Why not make them light? The 30 footer is this thread could easily wight 400 lbs, correct? Would it not be a heck of a lot of fun to sail and trailer at that weight? Has anyone seen this done?
John

Sharpies aren't really very heavy boats. Stop and think about it: the classic sharpie was 35' LOA, and maybe 6' wide on the bottom. The draft was about a foot amidships or thereabouts....but the stem was a couple of inches above the waterline, and the bottom swept up out of the water well before the transom. How much weight did it take to get down to its lines?

Not much. Even though they were heavily built, they only weighed a couple of thousand pounds. How many other sailboats over 30 feet long can you think of that weigh that little?

To build a modern sharpie along the same dimensions that only weighed 400 pounds would be pointless, unless you were going to push it with an outboard instead of a sail. Even the tiniest of sail plans would lay it on its ear, in anything beyond a zephyr.

By the way: traditional sharpies did plane, even without a wide stern. They did so rather easily, as a matter of fact. But it was because of their relatively light weight combined with a straight forward hull, not because of wide sterns.

Will a sharpie compete with a multi-hull for speed? Of course not. If you want multi-hull performance, go build a multi-hull. And if you want a sharpie, go build a sharpie. They're different animals.

I'm reminded of the time my uncle caught my mother adding sugar to her cornbread. That was over fifty years ago, but I can still hear him telling her, "******* it, Erlene! If you're going to make cake, make cake. And if you're going to make cornbread, for God's sake make cornbread."

[frank smith]

A 35' New Haven racing sharpie could do 20 knots . With a lot of live ballast on hiking boards . Sorry I dont have a picture

[Angélique]

Thank you for all the links, Angel.

Your welcome... :)

The pictures are a crash course in how to lay out and build the cabin and amenities of a sharpie. :)

Here are a few more... ;)

Rodger Martin Design Outward Bound 30 (http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/portfolio.php?item=30):

http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/Image/104/104-OB-PUBL--SAIL--2--250-.jpg (http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/File/104%20OB%20%20%20PUB%20SAIL%20%20%207%20SEP%2007%20%20%20pdf%20(1).pdf) . . http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/Image/104/104-OB-PUBL--COMP--2--250-.jpg (http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/File/104/104%20OB%20%20%20PUB%20COMP%20%20%207%20SEP%2007%20%20%20pdf%20(1).pdf)

Rodger Martin Design Presto 30 Sharpie (http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/portfolio.php?item=82):

http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/Image/124/124-P-30-SAIL-PLAN-RM-AUG-6.jpg (http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/File/124/124%20P%2030%20SAIL%20PLAN%20SH%2016JUL2009%20Model%20(1).pdf) . . http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/Image/124/124-P-30-COMPOSITE-6-AUG-09.jpg (http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/File/124/124%20ARRANGEMENT%205AUG09%20SH.pdf)

I like the idea of the sliding galley for inside and outside use that is on the Presto 30 Sharpie (click the last drawing to see it).

Is here someone with any experience with such a sliding galley on a boat?

It's like the sliding 'galley' in Robert Q. Riley (http://www.rqriley.com/)'s DIY MiniHome (http://www.rqriley.com/minihome.html), that's also for inside and outside use...

http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/mini-h2.jpg

http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/mini-h4a.jpg

http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/mini-h5.jpg

Just to get the picture ;)

And here is another (http://www.rqriley.com/b-camp.html) one...

Gonzo are you watching :D

Regards,
Angel

[gonzo]

Yes, and I'm envious

[snuffy]

Hi,troy 2000


I have been studying sharpies for awhile now and am surprised that no one here has pointed you to Chapells own designs that are available at the Smithsonian for Cheap[10$/sheet]there is a 30' sweetheart called "tomahawk"[my love]as well as a 40"flattie crusier that are as near to what you say you want...and by the way,the nice lady at "ships plans"has told me a whole bunch of his previously" unpublished"work of his that has never been seen will be in the re-worked catalog that is nearing completion...like in the next 3-4 weeks,you will be able to get a whole bunch of new [old]work of the guy who knew more about sharpies than anyone I can think of...

At 10$ a sheet.

[I admit I spent close to 300$,but,I am a nut about sharpies:D .]

snuffy

[snuffy]

Oh,and these are CONSTRUCTION drawing.Real Plans...!!snuffy

[troy2000]

Hi,troy 2000


I have been studying sharpies for awhile now and am surprised that no one here has pointed you to Chapells own designs that are available at the Smithsonian for Cheap[10$/sheet]there is a 30' sweetheart called "tomahawk"[my love]as well as a 40"flattie crusier that are as near to what you say you want...and by the way,the nice lady at "ships plans"has told me a whole bunch of his previously" unpublished"work of his that has never been seen will be in the re-worked catalog that is nearing completion...like in the next 3-4 weeks,you will be able to get a whole bunch of new [old]work of the guy who knew more about sharpies than anyone I can think of...

At 10$ a sheet.

[I admit I spent close to 300$,but,I am a nut about sharpies:D .]

snuffy

Thanks for the tip, snuffy. I do have two of Chapelle's books now, and the sharpie plans in them are among those available from the Smithsonian. I was plannning to order the catalog next week, as a matter of fact. But if a new catalog is as close to coming out as you say, I'll wait for it instead.

edit: I went looking for Tomahawk online, and couldn't find anything about it with either google or yahoo. Can you tell me a little about it? I'm not completely pigheaded; if Chapelle drew something that fills the bill on what I want, it would be silly of me not to just follow his plans.

There's a double-ended 30' sharpie cruiser in one of my Chapelle books. But I don't really want a double-ender, especially one where the heel of the sternpost touches the waterline like the stem.

By the way: the more I think about it, the less I think I'm going to put a traditional galley in the cabin. My boat will be used on desert lakes, and I doubt anyone will ever be cooking while I'm under way. Instead, I'm thinking of placing a privacy compartment for a portable toilet starboard of the companionway (or at least a draw curtain), and a chart table and clothing locker to port. For cooking I'm looking at portable propane stoves and grills. Those can be set up either on the chart table, or more likely on a seat in the cockpit, and stowed when not in use.

[snuffy]

That design was one of many that are listed,,,[its a 30 cat-ketch,as is the flatties cruiser]I went thru the catalog several times and eventually figured out that these were relatively,mostly unknown work of his...except for Capt.R.Parker,who has made good use of the material for his sharpies book,and a few nutcases like myself who bought a LOT of their plans.I am really excited about all the new stuff this sweetheart @ ships plans told me about.I have spoken with her several times,and she knows quite a bit about the work that Chapelle has...and is not published

snuffy

[snuffy]

oh,and the tomahawk comes in either a square end or round ,like the traditional Carolina and New Haven types...there is some interesting plans and a lot of material from his "paper 25"available at a website called"feeble crew" .just google "feeble crew"[they have a interesting take on retirement]

snuffy

[Angélique]

For cooking I'm looking at portable propane stoves and grills. Those can be set up either on the chart table, or more likely on a seat in the cockpit, and stowed when not in use.

Want a portable galley? Check this out (http://www.drascombe.nl/download/dekookkist.pdf) :idea:

It is Dutch but everyone can read the pictures.

Regards,
Angel

[troy2000]

Want a portable galley? Check this out (http://www.drascombe.nl/download/dekookkist.pdf) :idea:

It is Dutch but everyone can read the pictures.

Regards,
Angel

It reminds me of some drawings I've seen lately of what the author called a Dutch galley. I thought it was in one of the Chapelle books, but if it is I can't find it again. It's the same basic idea, but had a sink to one side of the kerosene (paraffin) stove, which was in a metal-lined compartment. The sink drained through a hose which was clipped to the side of the box to hold it above the water line when the sink was being used, and there was a drawer under the sink. It had a wing folded over the stove, that opened out to give a bit of counter space. It was lashed down by the handles when in use, and stored on a shelf the rest of the time.

[boat fan]

Will a sharpie compete with a multi-hull for speed? Of course not. If you want multi-hull performance, go build a multi-hull. And if you want a sharpie, go build a sharpie. They're different animals.


There are conditions where a good sharpie can beat a multihull .

Smooth flat water and light airs .

A good slim sharpie under those conditions has a chance.
Less drag , better tacking ability.Marginal.

Most other situations ...forget it.

[troy2000]

It reminds me of some drawings I've seen lately of what the author called a Dutch galley. I thought it was in one of the Chapelle books, but if it is I can't find it again. It's the same basic idea, but had a sink to one side of the kerosene (paraffin) stove, which was in a metal-lined compartment. The sink drained through a hose which was clipped to the side of the box to hold it above the water line when the sink was being used, and there was a drawer under the sink. It had a wing folded over the stove, that opened out to give a bit of counter space. It was lashed down by the handles when in use, and stored on a shelf the rest of the time.

Here we go; I found it in Chapelle's Boatbuilding. My memory was off on the details, but I had the general idea....
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/002-1.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/003-1.jpg

[boat fan]

Smaller than what your`e building dave, but maybe interesting just the same..http://otterwater.com/Boats/Mystic9.jpg

http://otterwater.com/Sharpie.htm

[troy2000]

Interesting build on that old sharpie. Looks like they used a lot of thin stock built up, instead of heavy pieces.

[frank smith]

This is one form that the sharpie can take .

http://chrismorejohn.blogspot.com/2009/06/setting-up-websiteagain.html

[wardd]

reminds me of a bolger AS 29/39

its what ive been studying

[frank smith]

reminds me of a bolger AS 29/39

its what ive been studying

I think there a lot of the same ideas that Bolger had.
Fair amount of rocker , little flair , high free board for reserve stability,
and decent ballast . Very cool . It shows that there are many ways to go with the form , but if you change one part , all the others have to be changed also .

[boat fan]

This is one form that the sharpie can take .

http://chrismorejohn.blogspot.com/2009/06/setting-up-websiteagain.html


Fantastic Frank !

I have been looking for info on this ( Hogfish Max. ) boat for a long time.

Thank you.

[wardd]

i think the important thing about the as 29/39 shape is to keep the sides and keel the same shape and of course weight and balance, but it seems scalable to me

[frank smith]

Fantastic Frank !

I have been looking for info on this ( Hogfish Max. ) boat for a long time.

Thank you.

Good luck on getting much info on the design from Chris Morjohn .
But I think there is enough info out there to get the idea .

[frank smith]

i think the important thing about the as 29/39 shape is to keep the sides and keel the same shape and of course weight and balance, but it seems scalable to me

I dont know how this worked out for the AS39 , as it is basically the the 29
stretched out . Both having a beam of 7'10" to accommodate plywood construction . The AS39 would make an excellent live a board coastal cruiser .
you could get a large central pilot house out of it and reduce the the freeboard fore and aft . you would lose full standing head room and the aft cabin , but if it were just for me I would not care .

[wardd]

the 39 appears to be a stretched 29 with the same beam
what appeals to me beside the max use of room in the dimensions is that something like that could be legally trailered

[souljour2000]

I am very interested in how Chris Morejohn did his portholes on "Hogfish maximus". His smaller "hogfish" and he and family used to be across from us in Titusville Marina in the late 90's. It seems like a design technique that is not uncommon but I'm not quite sure if this is so. It look like it may be very thick darkened plexi or that other stuff..can't think of what it's trade name is...and that they are thru-bolted flush with some inset for the bolt heads to sit in on the outside of the porthole but be covered over somehow to appear flush and basically the same color as the tinted perspex or plexi...perspex..was that the name? Anyone who can enlighten me here...I'd appreciate it as I want to use this system on my Hunter 20 upgrade if I can...it appears simple and strong ...but I could be wrong...not to make a rhyme, but it seemed like the time..etc etc..:)

[boat fan]

Are you thinking of Lexan , soulgour ?

It`s strong but soft ...( scratches ).

[souljour2000]

lexan...It could be...scratches easily?...scratching potential is a major downside to that type of installation..especially on my boat where there is not much room on either catwalk forward...hmm...scratch that idea...:rolleyes:

[wardd]

sandwhich the lexan between plexiglass

[kayaker50]

Troy2000, have you done anything more with the model? I've spent the last couple of weeks looking over all the links posted here as well as googleing and binging wooden sharpie etc.
I'm particularly interrested in your cabin- how much headroom can you get while keeping the good looks of a traditional sharpie. Here is a photo of one I really like made from Woodenboat's Egret plans (modified) in North Carolina with a slightly higher cabin: http://www.woodenboat.com/wbmag/launchings/index.php?module=launchings&PHPWS_Entry_op=view&PHPWS_Entry_id=224
Chip.

[troy2000]

Troy2000, have you done anything more with the model? I've spent the last couple of weeks looking over all the links posted here as well as googleing and binging wooden sharpie etc.
I'm particularly interrested in your cabin- how much headroom can you get while keeping the good looks of a traditional sharpie. Here is a photo of one I really like made from Woodenboat's Egret plans (modified) in North Carolina with a slightly higher cabin: http://www.woodenboat.com/wbmag/launchings/index.php?module=launchings&PHPWS_Entry_op=view&PHPWS_Entry_id=224
Chip.

I haven't had much time to mess with it, k50. Between working my regular shifts, covering for guys on vacation, driving home and back on my days off, handling the honey-doo lists at two separate houses (our own and the one we just inherited from my mother-in-law) and everything else that comes up, I'm getting a little frustrated. It's something you can't really just sit down and knock out a few minutes at a time, unless you're following someone else's detailed plans.

But I've messed with it enough to prove (to my own satisfaction, at least) that you can get a decent sheer and a proper bottom with straight-cut sides, by manipulating the beam and the flare. What I have now is basically just the sides wrapped around four temporary molds, brought together at the stem and ending in a transom at the other end. The molds at each end are set where I plan to have actual bulkheads to create water storage and flotation compartments, and the other two are set at each end of the future centerboard trunk.

By tweaking those four molds, I've come up with the recommended flat run in the bottom, for the first third of the waterline length. There's a gentle rocker in the middle third. The final third is almost straight, but not quite; it has a little bit of rocker in it. I'll settle for that....considering that we're looking at a maximum 8 or 9 inches of draft anyway, I doubt it'll slow the boat much.

Now I need to start laying out the actual bulkheads and frame members. It looks like I'm going to be stuck away from home but not working the next couple of days, so hopefully I can make some progress. I may cheat and leave the chine stringers out, to simplify and speed up construction.

[troy2000]

Oh....the headroom question. I'm going for decent sitting headroom in the cabin, and that's it. I'm not even going to try to push the envelope; it'll probably be something like four and a half feet.

Remember, I'm building this for the Colorado River lakes, which are surrounded by desert. I'm not really figuring on needing much in the way of being able to hide from the elements. I can't run a big enough air conditioner to fight the summer anyway, and the winters aren't so hard I need to hole up inside. Most of our waking time will be spent in the cockpit, or on the beach we've grounded the boat on.

[Boston]

hows these Sharpies do as coasters
I'd think they would slam like crazy and knock the stuffing out of the crew in anything other than glass water

my old sailfish was basically a sharpy and its small size lent a lot to its comfort at least for me as a kid

but at say 30'
whole other story I would think
one good storm and I would think you would blow the bottom right out of it coming off the first big wave

my guess is your limited to clear skies and smooth sailing or am I missing something. I've never sailed a larger sharpie.

B

[troy2000]

hows these Sharpies do as coasters
I'd think they would slam like crazy and knock the stuffing out of the crew in anything other than glass water

my old sailfish was basically a sharpy and its small size lent a lot to its comfort at least for me as a kid

but at say 30'
whole other story I would think
one good storm and I would think you would blow the bottom right out of it coming off the first big wave

my guess is your limited to clear skies and smooth sailing or am I missing something. I've never sailed a larger sharpie.

B

Yes, you're missing something. If that were true, the use of sharpies wouldn't have spread from Connecticut to Florida. Sharpies are actually very seaworthy boats within their limits, and I've never heard of one 'getting the bottom blown right out of it coming off the first big wave'--particularly since that's the strongest part of the average sharpie....:)

To begin with, a sharpie is just that: long and narrow. It isn't going to act like a skimming dish or a scow, when it gets into rough water.

There is a case on record in which a tonging sharpie rescued the crew of a coasting schooner at Branford, Connecticut, during a severe gale, after other boats had proved unable to approach the wreck.

And your sailfish was nothing like a sharpie. You can't really compare a sailboard that you're sitting on top of to a 30' sailboat with several thousand pounds of displacement....

[PAR]

For quite some time you've (this thread) has drifted away from real sharpies and focused on highly modified things that really aren't sharpies.

It's difficult to guess at the sea keeping qualities of a craft like this (or any for that matter), without some understanding and experience.

By this I mean a 30' anything will bridge most of the chop it encounters in all but open water, so it's not bashing it's way through anything. It's not going to fall off waves and slam hard into the next. This isn't to say you couldn't get caught in a situation where you might, but it's very unlikely you'll take a 30' boat out in 15' seas, which is the case you'll need to really see some slamming on vessels this size.

Bolger's flat bottom box boats took this (and other design considerations) to the purest forms. Dead flat bottoms and slab sided craft, with seemly ridiculous length to beam ratios, not for nothing, but to employ the advantages found in the physics. A 5' wide 30' long boat will glide effortlessly along with next to no power to motivate it to hull speed. Hell, you can just about piss off the stern of a Tennessee and get her to do a knot or two. At this length he also knew the wave trains the craft would meet, wouldn't ever exceed it's ability to slice through, assuming of course the skipper wasn't "Gillian" himself.

Sharpies as the hull form as really known, is a louse sea boat, unless fairly well burdened, much like a dory, needing half it's weight in fish or oysters on the bottom planks to "steady up". A modified sharpie (one that's had some belly removed and been "beamed" up") acts more like a skiff and is still a rotten sea boat. Of course, place a ballasted board in her, seal up the decks, limit cockpit volume, install tall cabins with lots of crown and you'll recover from the eventual capsizes.

The skippers of 19th century sharpies where real sailors, so they could handle a 30' boat, with it's 2" thick file planked bottom and 3 tons of fish in the hold, along side a freighter to perform a rescue. These boats and skippers where nothing like what is being passed off as a sharpie today (let alone the skippers).

Take a better look at those Chapelle drawings. You'll note the runs where "tucked up" a lot more then modern variants. Why? While we're on the subject of the run, these buttock angles just wouldn't permit even the remotest possibility of getting up on plane. They can fall off or skid down the face of a wave, but plane, oh please. You'll also note the amount of rocker reflects the dramatic reduction of displacement worked into the modern sharpie lines. This means the modern variant will not slice through as it's three times as heavy ancestor did, but rather attempt to bash it's way over.

Knowing this, many not as familiar with the type, have dropped the stem into the water to help cut down on a perceived pounding issue. Of course this sets up a huge lee surge wave train and the boat has to be sailed flat for any performance, rather then using the narrow beam to advantage and burying the forward chine underway, but keeping the entry clear to clean up the flow.

I guess what I'm saying is get a ride on one of these big traditional and modern sharpies. I've shot breakers in the old school 30' boats and been in really ugly weather in both styles. If we where light, we let in some water in hold and rather then put the board down, we lifted it up. Just enough board was down to keep us tracking fairly straight, but no more. This let the boat "skid over the tops" and swells or breakers would just run under us. Too much board and the boat would do all sorts of undesirable stuff. The new boats behave like what they are, much lighter, beamer, flat bottom skiffs. Survival skills will be similar, though more difficult because of the additional beam, faster roll moment and quicker motion.

I think what has set me off so much (sorry) is that Egret isn't a sharpie. It's beam/length ratio is 3.1:1 which hardly qualifies it as unusual, let alone a sharpie. Yes, it has a sharpie sheer and other styling clues, but it's a skiff and will handle like one. Even the Sharp End 900, is only 3.75:1 beam/length, making it slightly narrow for a modern vessel, but not so much. Reuel's sharpies are a much better interpretation of the type with Ibis's at 5:1 beam/length ratio. Of course he's had to make "adjustments" for modern living, so the stem is buried and cabins are tall. Even the Bruce Kirby concoctions are considerably wider then typical sharpies standards. The NIS 31' is 3.2:1 beam/length for example.

The Presto and the sharpie share a common portion of their name, but really aren't very similar.

Okay, my rant's over . . .

[troy2000]

OK, my turn. If I remember right, the beam on Munroe's Egret was only about 5 1/2' across the bottom, whch is the beam that counts on a sharpie. I'm not sure how that translates into 3.1:1. Lessee...got a calculator right here.....yep, more like 5:1. Even at the gunwales, the ratio was only about 4:1. Nor was that beam carried very far fore or aft; it narrowed fairly quickly, and was hardly in the same class as the average square-sterned flat-iron skiff.

You're right that Egret wasn't a traditional sharpie; no one has ever made any secret of that. Munroe incorporated dory elements into her, too: double ends, a lot of flare, more freeboard, and more rocker than the usual sharpie for her length. She's been referred to as a sharpie-dory or a shorie. But I would in no way, shape or form call her simply a "skiff."

Nor is what I'm designing simply a skiff. It's going to be very close to the proportions of the original working and racing sharpies. It'll have a long narrrow hull, a sharp plumb bow, and a tucked-up stern.

I don't have a ton or two of oysters to dump onto the cabin sole; I'll have to make do with some permanent inside ballast instead. I'll be keeping the cabin low and the rig simple, both for stability and for windage.

And you know what? It might not be a sharpie by your definition when I get done with it, but Chapelle would have no trouble identifying it. He drew and published similar boats, and called them sharpies. I don't think he used the term lightly, although he did make a distinction between a good sharpie cruiser, and some of the clumsy, top-heavy, over-rigged abortions that were also built and called by the same name, saying some of them were downright dangerous.

You made some good points, but I think you're trying to take in a little too much territory. Just because Glen-L and John Atkins designed some pretty skiffs and called them sharpies, that doesn't mean everyone who builds a modern sharpie is building a simple skiff instead. Nor am I building a skiff. I know the difference.

I also think it's going to sail just fine, thank you.

[souljour2000]

I haven't studied the Sharpie nearly as much as many of you but I can see how the overall design is very successful for working fisher-folk.With that long skinny "sailing canoe" profile you could leave at 4 or 5 a.m. and ghost out of the harbor on the outgoing tide and night breezes off the land....fill your hold and by the time things get rougher in the afternoon...your stability factor is greatly increased by your catch allowing you to handle a stiff afternoon breeze or T-storm-induced waves if you get caught out without too much pounding on the way home....in the summers most coastal areas have onshore breezes that build until they reverse in the form of t-storm outflow from the land...fishermen would most often have a building but following sea on their way home...a stern design that recognizes that and can accept that nice push-along would have made sense...smart fisherfolk would be back and mending the nets by the time most t-storm outflow off the land made things froggy....if not then the narrow bow entry and length under load would punch thru any big waves as long as you or "Gilligan" keeps an angle into them ....overall an excellent coastal vessel design...for the recreational sailor maybe water-ballast tanks would seem to be a desirable feature...to give you that "hold chock full of oysters/fish to the rafters" stability PAR talked about...

[troy2000]

I havent studied the Sharpie nearly as much as many of you but I can see how the overall design is very successful for working fisherfolk.With that long skinny "sailing canoe" profile you could leave at 4 or 5 a.m. and ghost out of the harbor on the outgoing tide and night breezes off the land....fill your hold and by the time things get rougher in the afternoon...your stability factor is greatly increased by your catch allowing you to handle a stiff afternoon breeze or T-storm-induced waves if you get caught out without too much pounding on the way home....seems it's an excellent coastal vessel design and water-ballast tanks would seem to be a desirable feature...to give you that "hold chock full of oysters/fish to the rafters" stability PAR talked about....

Bolger liked water ballast in his sharpies. He also liked a lot of rocker, slab sides instead of flare, high freeboard and leeboards.

I'm sure he had good reasons for every one of those features, and I had all the respect in the world for him. But try as I might, I can't get past the looks of most of his sharpies. If I'm going to bust my tail building something, I'd just as soon it be something that looks graceful and pretty to my eye.

[frank smith]

hows these Sharpies do as coasters
I'd think they would slam like crazy and knock the stuffing out of the crew in anything other than glass water

my old sailfish was basically a sharpy and its small size lent a lot to its comfort at least for me as a kid

but at say 30'
whole other story I would think
one good storm and I would think you would blow the bottom right out of it coming off the first big wave

my guess is your limited to clear skies and smooth sailing or am I missing something. I've never sailed a larger sharpie.

B

I think it depends on the design . You are right that they are light flat bottomed boats , but Chapelles double ended 30' could be built for coastal use . I would want one that had a bit of dory in her , good rocker and outside ballast .

[frank smith]

The NIS 31' is 3.2:1 beam/length for example.

The Presto and the sharpie share a common portion of their name, but really aren't very similar.

Okay, my rant's over . . .

Good rant . There is a lot of mythology about the sharpie , But not much in the way of first hand knowledge. Any info on the handling of a sharpie , and how changes to form affect handling is a help .

NIS 31 is really a presto type

[souljour2000]

PAR....have you published any books yet? Your "rants" might be a construed as a tad acidic at times but damned if these threads don't need a healthy dose of "smelling salts" billowing from the bilges from time to time and I like it when you do post one of these classics...

Thanks for the "Gilligan" reference too...that was also classic...

[Boston]

I been reading about how to sail these things
apparently since they slide around so easily sail handling is a key element in slow maneuvers. For instance you can saddle up to a dock sideways or even bring in her stern with kinda a sliding maneuver, with one sail let out to luff while the other is close sheeted. kinda makes the boat pivot around its middle with the tiller hard over to where the rudder is perpendicular to the keel

there are some unique sailing characteristics to these boats that I was completely unaware of. Although the more I learn about them the less I believe they would make a comfortable live aboard unless you were talking a vessel of say 50+ and even then I suspect they would be "noisy" on the water

Gilligan

[PAR]

The unique sailing habits you're reading about are mostly rig related. Unless you've had some time in a cat ketch, you just can't understand how different this can be at times. One of my favorite and a common maneuver was the pirouette. You could come up to a dock or beach, release the sheets and land softly, if timed just right, stopping right where you wanted. Then to get off, you'd "back 'er out" and the boat would literally spin around, usually within 2 boat lengths or less and sail off 180 degrees from which it came in.

The Chapelle and other "antique" sharpies where not light, especially by modern standards, though in their day they were. These where wooden boats designed to carry heavy loads. I'm not kidding when I say a 30' sharpie would have had 2" thick bottom planks. This was done also to offer some ballast, but mostly because of the weights and shoal abuses they would receive.

If you took some of Bolger's designs and added some shape to the stem and stern, even leaving the sides plumb, they'd look a lot better.

When designing these boats it's very important to understand how and why they work as they do. How much rocker (and why it's important), what shape to employ in the rocker, the shape of the chine in plan and how it relates to the rocker used, where to place the displacement and why, do you keep the stem clear or drop it into the water (again and why you'd consider this), plus many other factors make what seems to be a fairly simple design, considerably more complicated then first blush.

A 30' sharpie is a fairly comfortable boat in deep water, though nothing like what a modern sailor would consider "reasonable". A modern sailor would say it rolls too much, it's too wet a ride (they are wet), there's not enough freeboard, there's not enough headroom, there's not enough elbow room, it's too tender and they'd be right when compared to modern craft or modified sharpies. They have a predictable motion and are not jerky, which is a huge improvement over a modern boat. They move through the water, not over it and slamming doesn't happen unless you're doing something wrong or heeled over good, in a healthy blow and what boat doesn't pound then. These boats as a rule (especially the boats with a buried bow) don't like to turn and as a result they've had some pretty interesting things done to their rudders. Unfortunately, the rudder has little to do with this design feature, so leave it alone to be on the safe side. With a heavy load they can get hard mouthed in a blow.

It's important to understand which design type you have and sail it accordingly. If the bow is free, then sail it with some heel and keep it "engaged", but if the bow is buried, then you better keep it flat or she'll bitch about it in a blow when heeled over. It's usually difficult to keep a boat flat as the wind builds in strength, which is why most good sharpie designers don't bury the bow (note Bolger's bows). On the other hand, you can make shape concessions and develop a different entry, with the stem buried, but you better have a good idea what's going to happen to your lee wave train, if you want a responsive and fine handling boat.

I think if most of the posters here had the chance to spend a week on a real sharpie, you'd probably come away not liking it as much. Some of the complaints mentioned above would just eat at you. On the other hand a student of design could make a modified sharpie (what I generically call a skiff), with slightly more elbow room, maybe using some flare to accomplish this, without ruining the hull form, plus other "adjustments" and have a more palatable boat for modern uses. It should be noted that the more plumb the sides, the faster the boat will be, which is why Bolger kept them at 90 degrees, of course the added advantage that the chine logs can be simply cut on a table saw too, also was a factor.

[Timothy]

PAR . I have to agree with you about the cat ketch rig.I have been sailing one now for almost 30 years now, and I don't think it can be beat for cruising, if your the type of sailor who dreads turning on the engine. Its enough that I have to run it to charge my batteries. Although I have never sailed one I have been speculating based on the sailing characteristics of my own boat that Bolger got it right with the cat yawl ,as I think the mizzen realy adds little to speed, a lot to heel, and really is at its best when employed for manouvering and sea keeping . And although the center of effort is raised a higher aspect mainsail allowed by a small mizzen ( nigel Irens Roxanne) should be beneficial for windward work. When you were describing a more skiff like sharpie for cruising, I was wondering if a hull something like a stretched Goat Island Skiff would fit the bill? I would also like to ask you if you think a hull with more flair on a skiff like sharpie would lend itself to side tanks for movable water ballast? Sorry in advance if these questions are ill conceived.

[Timothy]

PAR . I have to agree with you about the cat ketch rig.I have been sailing one now for almost 30 years now, and I don't think it can be beat for cruising, if your the type of sailor who dreads turning on the engine. Its enough that I have to run it to charge my batteries. Although I have never sailed one I have been speculating based on the sailing characteristics of my own boat that Bolger got it right with the cat yawl ,as I think the mizzen realy adds little to speed, a lot to heel, and really is at its best when employed for manouvering and sea keeping . And although the center of effort is raised a higher aspect mainsail allowed by a small mizzen (Nigel Irens Roxanne) should be beneficial for windward work. When you were describing a more skiff like sharpie for cruising, I was wondering if a hull something like a stretched Goat Island Skiff would fit the bill? I would also like to ask you if you think a hull with more flair on a skiff like sharpie would lend itself to side tanks for movable water ballast? Sorry in advance if these questions are ill conceived.

[PAR]

If you take a look at the racing sharpies of the late 1900th century and compare them to the GIS, you'll see they both have very moderate amounts of flare in the top sides. Again, the fast way is plumb or nearly so. The GIS has very little flare, maybe 5 degrees or so, working from memory.

The GIS's success is light weight and good power to weight, which is always a winning combination. Her flat run and fine entry let her pick up her heels and scoot fairly well in moderate wind strengths. Modern sharpies try the same thing. If you stretched out the GIS, you'd lose relative bearing area and would have to live with higher weight per sq. ft. of sail area, because she'd be more tender and unable to "stand".

The maneuverability qualities of the cat ketch aren't specific to this rig type, but because the mizzen is taller in relation to the main, it can have a more positive affect on "sail steering". A yawl's tiny mizzen is at a disadvantage in this regard, though it's usually enough to back you out of a slip or keep your head up while tinkering on something. Also the taller mizzen on ketch permits a more effective mule to be flown from it's masthead. This is a powerful light air sail and can really improve abilities.

Everything is a trade off, so from a design point of view, you have to decide what's important to you. A low aspect divided rig, spreads enough area on a basically tender hull form in the sharpie, to make it a viable option. The GIS gets it's performance from a low aspect standing lug, with plenty of area to get her scooting good. Put this same area in a Bermudian rig and you'll be on your ear all the time. You'd point higher, if your weren't dragging your rail and light air performance would be better too.

If I was designing one, I'd be working on what I want, not the hull form. What your desires and needs are will dictate what hull form to employ in the design. Building a 30' sharpie is just about as difficult as any other 30' divided rig cruising boat, so it better be well suited to your needs ultimately, sharpie or not. Personally, in this size range there's no advantage to slab sided, flat bottom boat construction. In fact, structurally, it's weaker and heavier then other options, that also look a lot better (round bilge). In smaller sizes it is damn handy to cut a piece of plywood and have half of your bottom planks in one pass with the jig saw. On 30' ketches, this isn't going to happen, so you should be really sure of what you're building.

[troy2000]

Par, I once built a flat-bottomed canoe that I had entirely too much fun with. It started out as a Caddo Lake batteau, with 1x12 sides on a fore-and-aft planked bottom. Over the years I added a 6" strake to the sides; a pivoting centerboard; a gaff-rigged main; a boomed jib; a spritsail mizzen; and a rudder with a yoke tiller and steering lines.

It was horrendously over-canvased, of course. Most of the time I sailed it jib and jigger, standing in the middle of the canoe and hanging onto the tiller lines while I leaned into the wind. Yes, I fell over and got wet on a regular basis; I learned to carry a big fuzzy towel and a change of clothes in my pickup.:)

I know you can't extrapolate directly from small canoes to fullsized sailboats. But it seems to me the yawl rig has advantages for singlehanding a sharpie, if you make the jib self-tending...and if you have a good downhaul on the mainsail, so you can yank it down in a hurry instead of trying to reef it.

What would you think of such a rig on a 30' sharpie with a fairly traditional hull?

[Boston]

I once built a
thing
from scraps and junk left over from my grand daddy's shop out on the cape
nearly drowned on it and ended up walking miles through the salt marsh back to shore
was all cut up on eel grass and barnacles by the time I made it home
after that they let me begin learning in the boat shop how to work with wood
after many years
I hope to one day build again some "thing"
and sail away into the distance
never to return

B

[troy2000]

I once built a
thing
from scraps and junk left over from my grand daddy's shop out on the cape
nearly drowned on it and ended up walking miles through the salt marsh back to shore
was all cut up on eel grass and barnacles by the time I made it home
after that they let me begin learning in the boat shop how to work with wood
after many years
I hope to one day build again some "thing"
and sail away into the distance
never to return

B

I was a full-blown adult when I built that canoe. But you know what they say: "I may have to grow old, but I don't have to grow up.":p

[PAR]

You can put any rig on any boat really. I have a 15' LWL design that's been popular lately. It's a gaff sloop, but someone wanted a Bermudian, so this was also drawn. Next was a double headsail request and now it's also a gaff schooner, of which three are under construction currently. A gaff schooner on a 15' LWL boat? Well that's what they wanted. I've seen a 15' LOD boat with three masts, 4 square sails, 2 jibs and a spanker, so who's to say what's too much.

The decisions a client makes can be debated, but eventually someone's going to sign the check. I think the ketch rig is better suited if the sharpie is in need of a low aspect rig, which most are. If you can afford the righting arm leverage, then a yawl is an option, but considering it's height is nearly that of a sloop, you need an especially stable sharpie.

[troy2000]

You can put any rig on any boat really. I have a 15' LWL design that's been popular lately. It's a gaff sloop, but someone wanted a Bermudian, so this was also drawn. Next was a double headsail request and now it's also a gaff schooner, of which three are under construction currently. A gaff schooner on a 15' LWL boat? Well that's what they wanted. I've seen a 15' LOD boat with three masts, 4 square sails, 2 jibs and a spanker, so who's to say what's too much.

The decisions a client makes can be debated, but eventually someone's going to sign the check. I think the ketch rig is better suited if the sharpie is in need of a low aspect rig, which most are. If you can afford the righting arm leverage, then a yawl is an option, but considering it's height is nearly that of a sloop, you need an especially stable sharpie.

Do a gaff main, a boomed working jib and a spritsail mizzen really add up to a higher aspect rig than the average cat-ketch? Two of the three sails are relatively low and small. And a traditional gaff main is pretty much low-aspect by definition, isn't it?

I'm more worried about whether I can get away with an unstayed mainmast, and still make the jib set well enough to be useful.

Merry Christmas, by the way. And thank you, for the time you put into trying to teach people in spite of themselves.

[PAR]

The ketch rig has it's sail area divided up more equally among the sticks. This division helps lower the CE and spread out the area laterally, uniformly. Because of this the mizzen mule is bigger and the effects the mizzen itself brings to the table are bigger. Personally, I prefer to sail a yawl for several reasons, but from a practical stand point, I think argument is better made for the ketch.

[Timothy]

Weight aloft might also be a factor to consider . There need only be a small increase in section for a taller mast so weight wise a sloop is the lightest ,all its sail carried by one mast, a yawl second and a ketch third. Somewhere I read that there is a rating that handicaps sloops the most yawls second ketches third and schooners last.

[KSONeill]

I really like sharpies but every sharpie I find is heavy. My background is in building very fast beach multis. I have a Tornado that I use as a baseline and have fun building faster/better and slower/worse multis than her. My next project is probably to build a sharpie like center hull for fast cruising that can sail alone as a sharpie but slide into my cat and become a trimaran. As a tri she will be a lot slower than the foiling cat she is in, but still a lot faster than the Farrier tris or other cruising tris. When I want to go for a wild ride she will slide out and moor until I come back and pick her up again. (Thinking about naming her Thunderball after the yacht in the movie that converted into a hydrofoil.) She will also be able to sail with a small two masted rig for classic day sailing. The design is to be like the one proposed in this thread but the hull will weigh about 200 lbs. The difference from this design is that the main hull will be narrow but the stern will be wide so that the hull planes -- so sharpie lines but like a skiff underwater. With 2 short masts, flared sides and a weighted daggerboard she will be tender, but self-righting. As a sharpie this boat should be really easy to trailer and move around. The sharpie designs I see are heavy. Why not make them light? The 30 footer is this thread could easily wight 400 lbs, correct? Would it not be a heck of a lot of fun to sail and trailer at that weight? Has anyone seen this done?
John

Not a 30' boat, and not sliding into an existing cat, but this is something similar (on the far right):

http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/PIYC%202009.jpg

same boat under sail, starting at about 0:25 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkKZI-RCsTU

and here on the beach, starting at about 1:50 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_oVVgSF9io

It started life as a John's Sharpie from CLC. Charlie Jones, the owner, is a professional boatbuilder, so he had done a great job on it, but they found it too tender for extended trips in the usual (high) local winds. Graham Byrnes of B&B Yachts drew the amas for him. Very nice job all round. 10' wide on the water, easy to sail, quite fast. Certainly faster than without the amas, but not in a Tornado's class, of course. Carries a bunch of gear, great for a week's beachcamping. Charlie and Laura have done the Texas 200 in her twice.

K O'N

[troy2000]

I haven't done as much as I was planning to do. The other day when I was carrying it from my pickup cab into my motor home, my neighbor's dog jumped up on me and knocked it out of my hand. Not on purpose; he's just a big, clumsy, almost grown Rottweiler puppy. Like a lot of Rotts, he's a sweetheart but not the sharpest tool in the shed....

First thing I realized when I picked up the pieces was that I'm never using balsa wood for molds again; all four of them snapped off at the sheer. From now on they'll be plywood, masonite or the like.

So I've been working on the boat freehand, instead of attached to a strongback. "The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft agley"....if I had it to do again, I'd probably put the molds back together and laminate a piece against them, and go back to plan 'A.'

Here's a look at how she's coming, though. As soon as I get the sheer clamps in, I'll start on the V-berth, centerboard trunk and other odds and ends that need to go in before the forward deck and the cabin trunk. The molds will come out as the bulkheads go in....

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/001-2.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/003-2.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/004-2.jpg

[frank smith]

I think if most of the posters here had the chance to spend a week on a real sharpie, you'd probably come away not liking it as much. Some of the complaints mentioned above would just eat at you. On the other hand a student of design could make a modified sharpie (what I generically call a skiff), with slightly more elbow room, maybe using some flare to accomplish this, without ruining the hull form, plus other "adjustments" and have a more palatable boat for modern uses. It should be noted that the more plumb the sides, the faster the boat will be, which is why Bolger kept them at 90 degrees, of course the added advantage that the chine logs can be simply cut on a table saw too, also was a factor.

Par , It is probably best to stick with the basic sharpie concept . I have seen a nis31 all dressed up in yacht finish , with an expensive rig . I thought they missed the point .

I think a good basic sharpie could be built using 4 sheets of ply per side, and 2 layers of 5/8 bottom . The center board and rudder could be 3x material drifted together with galvanized rod. It would have decent sitting head room and could be quite roomy . If designed with 1/2 per foot rocker, not to much flair, and a freestanding ketch rig , It could be made reasonably safe for coastal work . I might think of a raised deck cabin , but that starts to get away from the idea of simplicity. If kept simple they be built quickly and cheaply . Just dont try to make them something they are not.

[troy2000]

Par , It is probably best to stick with the basic sharpie concept . I have seen a nis31 all dressed up in yacht finish , with an expensive rig . I thought they missed the point .

I think a good basic sharpie could be built using 4 sheets of ply per side, and 2 layers of 5/8 bottom . The center board and rudder could be 3x material drifted together with galvanized rod. It would have decent sitting head room and could be quite roomy . If designed with 1/2 per foot rocker, not to much flair, and a freestanding ketch rig , It could be made reasonably safe for coastal work . I might think of a raised deck cabin , but that starts to get away from the idea of simplicity. If kept simple they be built quickly and cheaply . Just dont try to make them something they are not.

Frank, you have the drift of what I'm planning to do. I'm not trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear....

I wasn't attracted to the sharpie concept by the romantic aura of history hanging about it. It got my attention because a sharpie yacht looks like something I can knock out in a workmanlike manner in a reasonable amount of time--without investing my life, my estate and my self-esteem in it. I'd like to get one done, launch it in the lakes of the Colorado River system, and start having fun with it.

I'm not looking for a floating home; I'll settle for something I can hang out in for a weekend. Maybe even for a week or two of vacation, if I get ambitious and the weather's warm enough to bathe in the lake.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that I also happen to love the way the way sharpies look....the plumb stem; the aggressive sheer at the bow sweeping back and down, and up again into an almost delicate stern; with a low freeboard amidships that just cries out for a low cabin trunk to fill it in....

[frank smith]

Troy, how is your design project going ?

[troy2000]

Troy, how is your design project going ?
Not well, at least at the physical end of it. Apparently, there's some kind of an animal conspiracy afoot to keep me shorebound.

I took the model home with me to work on it over the holidays, and set it on an unused computer table. A cat apparently jumped up onto the table and knocked it off, breaking a chunk out of each side somehow. Or maybe the wife's Pomeranians ran over it chasing the cat, after she came down with it. Then one of the little darlings chewed up the bulkhead I had shaped and ready to install. I'm about ready to take a bb gun to anything with four legs....I put the hull back together again, but there's a little kink at the sheer on the port side. I'm hoping it'll fair out, when it's sandwiched between the gunwale and the sheer clamp.

But I made a little progress, anyway. I figured the deck crown and made a template for all the beams; installed the watertight bulkhead forward; tucked in a V-berth; and built one of the settee berths. As soon as I recut and install the chewed bulkhead, things will pick up a little. I can finish framing and covering the deck, install the cabin sole, furnishings and centerboard trunk, build the cockpit, and start on the cabin trunk. That's going to have to be removable of course, since it's a model, which complicates things a little. The last model I built had a removable cabin top instead, and that didn't work very well.

The main thing I've decided so far is that it was a mistake to let the LOA drift down from 30' to 28'. That two feet translates into a lot of lost space in the cabin and/or the cockpit.

I'll try to get some pictures in the next day or two, to show what progress I've made.

[kayaker50]

Troy thanks for the progress reports. Looking forward to more photos. Chip.

[Boston]

stuffed one of the little darlings might make a nice figure head and would also serve as an example to the others
just an idea
B

[frank smith]

I have been looking at the New Have and North Carolina sharpies . The North Carolina version appears to have fuller more buoyant bow than the New Haven .
I was wondering why this difference, and how it would affect the handling.
My thinking is that for a coastal version a bow more like that of a dory would be better all around , but result in a slower boat .

[souljour2000]

I'll leave it to those who know more about sharpies and traditional eastcoast watercraft to reply but I will say that finding out about all the regional differences in a basic design is very interesting...I will venture to say that here in Florida we were influenced heavily by New England designs as many successful New Englanders were involved with Florida from early times...from Key West, Fernandina/Jacksonville , Pensacola and a few other towns...and so forth..anyways..love the topic of sharpies and early traditional boats, of all nations and regions on the globe really but for North America you can add Canadian Maritimes,Cuban and Bahamian fishing smacks, great lakes and west coast boats,, etc....these traditional boats very heavily deserve their own forum here IMHO...Anybody who wishes to share any info on these types of boats please feel free to do so in whatever thread you can...it sure is nice to read about here and get as much from the great forum that is Boatdesign.net as possible...

[frank smith]

I'll leave it to those who know more about sharpies and traditional eastcoast watercraft to reply but I will say that finding out about all the regional differences in a basic design is very interesting...I will venture to say that here in Florida we were influenced heavily by New England designs as many successful New Englanders were involved with Florida from early times...from Key West, Fernandina/Jacksonville , Pensacola and a few other towns...and so forth..anyways..love the topic of sharpies and early traditional boats, of all nations and regions on the globe really but for North America you can add Canadian Maritimes,Cuban and Bahamian fishing smacks, great lakes and west coast boats,, etc....these traditional boats very heavily deserve their own forum here IMHO...Anybody who wishes to share any info on these types of boats please feel free to do so in whatever thread you can...it sure is nice to read about here and get as much from the great forum that is Boatdesign.net as possible...

I think that is a great idea . We could have a history thread running most
of the time ,taking a look at one type at a time . For instance you mentioned the Bahamian smack . They have interested me for some time ,but I have not be able to find much info .

[messabout]

Frank; Rooting around on my bookshelves, I found: The Migrations of An American Boat Type. A booklet type publication from the US Government Printing Office. The booklet is attributed to information from the Museum of History and Technology /Smithsonian. The cover says that it is Bulletin 228, paper number 25. The booklet traces the developement and migration of the sharpie from New Haven, Chesapeake, North Carolina, Florida etc.. There are some pictures and a couple of lines drawings along with scantlings and other things. Interesting stuff that might be available from USgov printing office or perhaps Smithsonian.

[troy2000]

Frank; Rooting around on my bookshelves, I found: The Migrations of An American Boat Type. A booklet type publication from the US Government Printing Office. The booklet is attributed to information from the Museum of History and Technology /Smithsonian. The cover says that it is Bulletin 228, paper number 25. The booklet traces the developement and migration of the sharpie from New Haven, Chesapeake, North Carolina, Florida etc.. There are some pictures and a couple of lines drawings along with scantlings and other things. Interesting stuff that might be available from USgov printing office or perhaps Smithsonian.
That booklet is available as a free ebook from the Gutenberg Project, and definitely worth reading. It was written by Chapelle, and has much of the same information on sharpies as his American Small Sailing Craft.



http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/29285

[souljour2000]

There is a new Maritime museum here near me in west Bradenton..more specifically Cortez,Florida...which some of you may know is a fishing village here near Bradenton Beach that has a long and proud history.
It has been open for more than a year but I haven't made it inside yet. I went to the museum a few months back and they were closed on Sundays not too suprisingly. I'm wating for my brother to come down in a few weeks and we'll go on a Saturday....
I am really looking forward to seeing what they have done there and see what boats they have on static display and so forth.

As for the Bahamian fishing smacks..I used to have a great picture of one till the comp crashed a while back...I'm pretty sure they were still racing the old Bahamian fishing smacks in Nassau I believe into the early seventies in an annual race...maybe someone can correct me if it was another port town...there should be some amount of documentation out there...not sure...there were a few naval historians/researchers who went around the Caribbean in the 1970's trying to interview old sailors/boatbuilders and attempting to take the lines off of the old craft still in one piece either floating or lying around various harbors before they were pretty much all gone.... I'll try to see what I can find on the Cuban smacks too...which interest me greatly..

[troy2000]

Speaking of Chapelle and free stuff, here's a set of plans and building instructions for his 22' dory-sharpie Southwind, at svensons.com. It has two sail plans: a Great lakes sharpie-style cat ketch, or a gunter-rigged sloop. He shows a cuddy cabin with the cat ketch rig, and an open cockpit with a high coaming for the sloop rig.


http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/South

[messabout]

Souljour; The Manatee Maritime Museum is a small place but it has some really good stuff there. The museum boatshop is also an interesting place. They restore old time boats such as an ancient cuban fisherman launch, and a variety of traditional small craft.

The museum and its members put on the annual Florida West Coast Small Craft Festival. The festival is about as much fun as you can have messing around with traditional boats. A couple of years ago the guest speaker at the festival banquet was the curator of some kind of Bahamian museum or historical society. I do not recall his name or contact information. If anyone is interested in tracking down this information resource, contact Roger Allen at the Manatee Museum. Roger himself will know a lot about the Bahama Smacks and Abaco dinghys. He can surely put us in contat with the curator dude. You can phone the museum to find Roger. Not even a toll call from Sarasota. That'll get the search rolling. The museum and its members are also a chapter of the TSCA (Traditional Small Craft Association). There is also an affiliated group of boat nuts who frequent Lewis Boatworks. It is not really a boatworks but a bevy of crude shelters on the riverbank where they build prodigious numbers of small craft. It is not a commercial operation but just a place for amateurs to build boats, tell lies, and drink beer. They also do monthly messabouts up and down the Florida west coast. Dave Lewis is the major Domo there and his E-mail is Skipjack@tampaBay.rr

[souljour2000]

Thanks for all the great info Messabout...I've heard of Lewis Boatworks...I know the old mantaee Historical village in Bradenton had an small but active boatworks set up much like a 19th century boatyard and had a steam-powered lathe last time I was there and some other cool stuff..not sure if that is affiliated with Lewis boatworks or not but I think heard that the it may have been incorporated into the Manatee Maritime Museum....it would make sense I guess... Anyways..I'd love to get up to Cedar key one of these days for the small-boat get-to-gether....I checked out all the pics from this years though a while back...maybe it was the year before...looking forward to seeing the Manatee Maritime Museum in a huge way here in a few weeks...I grew up in No.Virginia and my old man was a WWII navy vet who took us to every Maritime museum in the northeast during the years we grew up...Maritime museums are neat places. and they are probably a big reason I'm into boats to this day since we never owned a boat growing up... I can't wait to get up to Pensacola when theirs is finished too since my brother is living there half the year these days...Thanks again for all the info and links...the pics are all belize smacks from the early British days...the last pic lower right is a quarantined Cuban smack that was being held in the harbor...I should add these pics came from the Ambergris Cay Historical Association website..hope they dont mind...

[tom28571]

I am very late in getting to this thread, mainly because I exhausted my desire for a sharpie some time ago. I did "design" a 30 footer some 20 years ago that had tandem centerboards to avoid one of the interior problems of sharpies. The forward one was under the V berths and the aft one was under the cockpit with only a small intrusion into the cabin.

Since that time I have sailed on numerous sharpies, with the largest being a 36 footer from Chapelle. These cured me of a desire for any sharpie in the traditional form. Also included was a NIS22 and and a NIS31. While these are faintly recognizable as sharpies, they are far removed from the traditional form and can provide some measure of cruising comfort. The NIS31 and it's larger sister the NIS40 can be ideal cruisers for their size. They are built light and provided with significant ballast which allows some practical headroom. Neither characteristic is part of the traditional sharpie profile. The Chapelle 36 footer still had only crawling room inside the cabin which was dominated by the centerboard.

On a practical note, I sold my plans for a NIS26 and bought a used S27.9 daggerboard sloop for well under the cost of building my 30 footer and sailed away. I have yet to sail on any sharpie of any close relation to the traditional form that I thought offered a reasonable alternative to more common sailboats available.

Not meant to be argumentative at all. Just a record of one sailor's path from infatuation to disappointment. Sounds like some similar dealings with the distaff side of humanity over my early years:D Fortunately both journeys have turned out to the good with both boats and the fairer sex.

[troy2000]

I am very late in getting to this thread, mainly because I exhausted my desire for a sharpie some time ago. I did "design" a 30 footer some 20 years ago that had tandem centerboards to avoid one of the interior problems of sharpies. The forward one was under the V berths and the aft one was under the cockpit with only a small intrusion into the cabin.

Since that time I have sailed on numerous sharpies, with the largest being a 36 footer from Chapelle. These cured me of a desire for any sharpie in the traditional form. Also included was a NIS22 and and a NIS31. While these are faintly recognizable as sharpies, they are far removed from the traditional form and can provide some measure of cruising comfort. The NIS31 and it's larger sister the NIS40 can be ideal cruisers for their size. They are built light and provided with significant ballast which allows some practical headroom. Neither characteristic is part of the traditional sharpie profile. The Chapelle 36 footer still had only crawling room inside the cabin which was dominated by the centerboard.

On a practical note, I sold my plans for a NIS26 and bought a used S27.9 daggerboard sloop for well under the cost of building my 30 footer and sailed away. I have yet to sail on any sharpie of any close relation to the traditional form that I thought offered a reasonable alternative to more common sailboats available.

Not meant to be argumentative at all. Just a record of one sailor's path from infatuation to disappointment. Sounds like some similar dealings with the distaff side of humanity over my early years:D Fortunately both journeys have turned out to the good with both boats and the fairer sex.

Thanks for the overview of your experiences and changing attitudes over the years. And glad to hear your journeys in multiple fields have turned out well....:)

I still think a sharpie is suitable for my needs, because I'm planning to sail the lakes and lagoons of the Colorado River. I want a trailorable boat and a beachable boat; I want a boat that won't snap off a keel or dagger board if it hits a patch of shallow water. I don't need a cabin as living space or respite from a cold climate; it'll be mostly storage, sleeping room, and privacy for a head. Most of my time will be spent in the cockpit, or ashore with the boat pulled up on a beach.

And I definitely won't be doing any passage-making. Come nighttime we'll beach or anchor, make sure the appropriate lights are shining, and hit the sack.

[souljour2000]

Troy...i'm curious if you ever considered a smaller boat then...given that you don't need alot of the features that a 30-footer normally brings to the table...seems like you could build a smaller 23-25 footer with alot of the features you are after and have an easier-cheaper to build boat that is easier to trailer through mountain passes...looking forward to seeing what design you eventually decide on and see pics of her build...not trying to dissuade you from your vision...I have a vision of how I want my 20-footer and a design envelope/retro-fit schedule for her that many would find to be way to much trouble to bother with...most would say get a bigger boat...etc..so I get that..I guess the trailerablity question in the mountains would be my biggest concern with a design like yours...unless I had a real big truck..which alot of people do...

[troy2000]

Troy...i'm curious if you ever considered a smaller boat then...given that you don't need alot of the features that a 30-footer normally brings to the table...seems like you could build a smaller 23-25 footer with alot of the features you are after and have an easier-cheaper to build boat that is easier to trailer through mountain passes...looking forward to seeing what design you eventually decide on and see pics of her build...not trying to dissuade you from your vision...I have a vision of how I want my 20-footer and a design envelope/retro-fit schedule for her that many would find to be way to much trouble to bother with...most would say get a bigger boat...etc..so I get that..I guess the trailerablity question in the mountains would be my biggest concern with a design like yours...unless I had a real big truck..which alot of people do...

Yes, I've considered all sorts of boats. I think I can get more boat for less money and less work with a sharpie than with anything else I've looked at. I also want shoal draft, and a pivoting centerboard that stands a chance of surviving if it grounds.

I want enough cabin for two couples to sleep out of the weather, and it's hard to get even comfortable sitting room in a smaller flat-bottomed boat, without the cabin sticking up like a wart on a hog.

I also want something that will scoot across the water in a hurry, when I want to button it up and go out to play in the afternoon breezes. The longer the boat, the faster.....

I don't plan on pulling my boat through many mountains, if any. And for a tow vehicle I have my old CJ5 Jeep, with some decent torque.

I like the looks of sharpies too; that obviously plays into it....

Remember that a 30' sharpie really isn't really a big boat; it's just a long one. I'm looking at probably 4000 lbs displacement max, a seven or seven and a half foot beam, and a draft somewhere between eight and twelve inches. There are a lot of 23' boats with more beam, more draft, more freeboard and more displacement....that are a whole lot harder (and more expensive) to build.

What I'm after is a plain and simple boat. It'll be built in a workmanlike manner, because I'm a skilled woodworker and carpenter and don't build garbage, but it isn't going to be fancy. And I want a weekender, not a floating vacation home or blue water passage maker; that simplifies things. It'll probably have a fold-down shelf for a portable stove, along with space to stash a BBQ grill to set up on shore. It'll have an ice chest; a dishpan for a kitchen sink; a Porta-Potty with a curtain around it for a head. Electical power will probably be limited to a couple of 12v marine batteries to power running lights, cabin lights, maybe a very small fan or two for warm nights, and an inverter for my laptop. I might make a cubbyhole to stash my little Honda generator in, so I can bring it out and fire it up for special occasions or to charge the batteries.

I don't plan any cabin heating. I am a spoiled Californian, you know....if it's too cold to stay comfortable in a sleeping bag or under a couple of blankets, it's too damn cold to be sailing.:D

But the boat will have a full-sized V-berth, settee berths that are large enough for adults to sleep in without scrunching up, and enough cockpit for me and my guests to sprawl out in.

I'll probably put a very small outboard in a motor well. But I don't plan on using it much, because I'm not going to be hanging around marinas and high-traffic areas any more than absolutely necessary.

[souljour2000]

Sounds like you have a good plan and know exactly what kind of bird you want...I wonder if anyone else has done one with a similar vision...as a trailerable cabin camper...
It seems like you will have quite alot of room ...Maybe I can't visualize it right......Sharpies are perfect for a light coastal camp-cruiser ...cabin or open boat verisons both... In comparison, I can't beach my 20-footer..though at 15" she gets close...but right now I am willing to trade beach-ability for cabin space...Our boats are similar in beam...7-7 1/2 foot...if only as far as the beam that entails our "roomy and significant walk-around cabin space" if you follow ...though one man should be able "creep around" far more area "forward" in a sharpie of course and abaft too.
I like sharpies ...their lean,long lines and speed, their ease of build, their salty looks.. The only drawback might be that I am wary of the height of the centerboard trunks I have seen in many small cruiser designs under 32' or so with flush CB's...not just sharpies. They all tend towards a high CB trunk right in the midst of the cabin to accommodate the keel .If you happen to be able to post a pic/drawing if you can...maybe I am exaggerating...I have seen one or two 19 or 20-foot flat bottom boats like mine online...that have managed to tuck away the keel completely and done it without a huge doghouse in the middle of the cabin...but it still seemed like the doghouse dominated the cabin somewhat...I can't remember the models.
I know a good (not overly "dog-housy")flush keel design must be possible with a 22-23 foot sloop and certainly should not be an issue with a 30' sharpie with the right design...
as for camper features..btw... I am also going to use a plain old plastic dish pan instead of a sink... I cut my sink out.... (it was plastic anyway)...The area where it was I will cover ...and it will become a counter to place things when cooking ...then maybe I'll install a magazine rack against the cabin wall that backs it...Maybe I'll want a sink, a generator, the whole nine yards, and a bigger boat someday but as for my needs right now I have plenty of 1 gal. jugs for my water and saltwater/local source for cleaning dishes with a final rinse in good water only. They are great for stashing and trimming ballast and easy to bring into the island campsite or what have you....
Just below the rim of the new " counter" (where the sink was) I have cut out a flat oval for a silverware tray to go...with a teak strip "stop" to keep the silverware tray from sliding out. I am aiming for as much comfort as I can pack into a 20-foot boat...make no mistake...that's why I have made and am making many ergonomic changes..may not work..we'll see...I think comfort in a boat has to be a prime concern after seaworthiness...that's just me...Mine will be hopefully be very comfy for one camper and at least reasonably comfy for another to tag along...beyond that...it's a daysailer only...hopefully able to ship a max. of 4-5 people sitting here and there on an afternoon cruise without excess discomfort...I may have to revise things of course but seems a reasonable expectation for her at present.
Good luck with your plans...I think she'll be a gem...and keep us posted...

[kayaker50]

Here's a new 35 foot egret type boat from Ruel Parker with 5'6" headroom (if I can post the attachment)

[kayaker50]

And there's a plastic pseudo sharpie on the market they're calling a Presto 30, but it seems like the freeboard is a little too high to be a real sharpie:
http://www.ryderboats.com/index.html

[troy2000]

Here's a new 35 foot egret type boat from Ruel Parker with 5'6" headroom (if I can post the attachment)

I bought Ruel Parker's Sharpie Book years ago. At the time I wasn't really that interested in the designs he presented, because he concentrated on the small end of every type he presented, and didn't seem to have that many plans that would be applicable to a cruiser. And after looking specifically at his version of Egret, I decided I had more trust in Woodenboat's reconstruction by....damn, I've gone brain-dead. Can't remember who drew it for them.....

But now that I'm headed towards the building stage, I really would like to have the Sharpie Book handy, to study Parker's details on plywood construction vs. traditional planking. And I can't find the blasted thing. I have no idea where it went; my books don't normally disappear. I finally gave up, and ordered another copy of it online today.

[troy2000]

And there's a plastic pseudo sharpie on the market they're calling a Presto 30, but it seems like the freeboard is a little too high to be a real sharpie:
http://www.ryderboats.com/index.html

To quote Wikipedia, "there are limits as to what can be done before the boat becomes something other than a sharpie."

[frank smith]

I thought I posted this before , but her it is again .
It shows a Parker build . This is pretty standard for a ply sharpie .
I am working on a dory sharpie-design , and it will be built this way .

http://schooneribis.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=4

[troy2000]

I thought I posted this before , but her it is again .
It shows a Parker build . This is pretty standard for a ply sharpie .
I am working on a dory sharpie-design , and it will be built this way .

http://schooneribis.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=4

Thanks for the pictures.

It's certainly different from traditional sharpie construction in some respects, at least the New Haven ones. They didn't have that multi-piece stem and cutwater assembly, for example. Instead, "the stem was a triangular-sectioned piece of oak measuring 6 by 9 inches before it was finished. The side plank ran past the forward edge of the stem and was mitered to form a sharp cutwater. The miter was covered by a brass bar stemband to which was brazed two side plates 3/16 or ¼ inch thick. This stemband, which was tacked to the side plank, usually measured ½ or ⅝ inch by ¾ inch and it turned under the stem, running under the bottom for a foot or two. The band also passed over a stemhead and ran to the deck, having been shaped over the head of the stem by heating and molding over a pattern."
--Chapelle.

Instead of a flat keelson, as in the picture and on my model, the traditional New Haven sharpies had keelsons made from three planks sandwiched together and stood on edge, with a piece taken out to make room for the centerboard and flat boards scarphed in at either end. That's probably because long and narrow boats with traditional planking needed the stiffening more than a modern one with plywood sides, decks and bottom.

With that big skeg on it, the sharpie in the pictures certainly won't be as maneuverable as a New haven sharpie. But it'll track easier....

Again, thank for the link to the pictures.

[frank smith]

Troy , I live not far from New Haven , and know of one 35' sharpie built of ply .
By a guy named Graham Ero ,If I am not mistaking

http://www.erowoodenboats.com/

I may be able to get picture of it for you. It was very simple build , 2x4 chine log and sheer clamp . 3/4" ply side and I assume 2 layers of 3/4 for the bottom.
The keelson and center board case were of a standard sharpie.
normally the plank center board case backbone did not reach the ends , but was filled in with a keelson fore and aft. The bow could be very simple and use a 4x4 with out a rabbit and the ply brought right right out , and the bow capped with a outer sacrificial stem , the side are usually not scarfed but simply put together with butt blocks of ply.

[troy2000]

OK, finally got a little more done on the model. The platform for the V-berth is in, and I glued the sheer clamps in place. I was going to install the permanent bulkheads first and notch them for the sheer clamps. But I decided that after the way the hull has been knocked around and broken up, I needed to fair the sheer first, as much as possible.

Here's a picture of the sheer clamps being glued in place. I didn't even try to use fast-grab glues like Super Glue or other cyanoacrylate glues. Instead, I used plain old woodworker's glue (aliphatic resin), so I would have time to work. They're clamped in place with small binder clips at close intervals because of the twist. And I used extra clips at the repaired hull breaks, to suck everything in tight and get rid of the kinks.

Tomorrow I'll start cutting out the deck beams, and notching them into the sheer clamps. The Finnish Birch plywood I have is a little hard for cutting small pieces from, and plain balsa doesn't have a strong enough grain to get curved beams out of it. So I'll probably laminate two thin planks of balsa together, with the grain of the two pieces at a shallow angle, and get the beams out of that.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/002-5.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/003-4.jpg

[souljour2000]

cool pics Troy...all are appreciated...keep up the good werks...

[troy2000]

By the way: although I'm trying to more or less replicate the construction of the real thing, all the wood I'm using is not necessarily exactly to scale. Those sheer clamps, for example, are what I happened to have handy. The full-sized one will probably be about an inch wider. Ditto with the plank keelson; it'll be wider, too.

[troy2000]

OK, scratch that. Even with two pieces glued up for cross grain, balsa just isn't strong enough for cutting deck beams to scale. Not to mention it's so soft that it's hard to keep a coping saw on track in it....

So I'm back to cutting deck beams out of the 4mm Finnish plywood I have on hand, and I just threw out half a dozen balsa deck beams.

For those of you who are wondering: yes. The model is going to take me longer to build than the boat will.:p

I figure it's going to take me two years to put together the time and the money to get going on the real thing. And I intend to take advantage of the time lag to do all my fiddling around and second-guessing on the model. I'd like to eliminate as many surprises as possible.

When I finally get started on the real boat, I'll do it like I've done everything from chip-carved jewelry boxes to houses and garages in the past: put my head down, dig in, and go from daylight to dark until it's finished.

[Boston]

best of luck
am always interested in your progress

[souljour2000]

Anyone see this on ebay? Cool boat if you could make a new superstructure that gave more cabin room and still was aerodynamic...I'd want a smaller one I could row but it's an interesting boat.Not sure about the hollow masts...looks like the builder/owner really had this thing stripped down for fast sailing....I wonder if it worked...



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-37-Sharpie-Sail-Boat-w-25-Masts-parts-restore_W0QQitemZ220544340069QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBoat_Parts_Accessories_Gear?hash=item3359779065

[troy2000]

Anyone see this on ebay? Cool boat if you could make a new superstructure that gave more cabin room and still was aerodynamic...I'd want a smaller one I could row but it's an interesting boat.Not sure about the hollow masts...looks like the builder/owner really had this thing stripped down for fast sailing....I wonder if it worked...



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-37-Sharpie-Sail-Boat-w-25-Masts-parts-restore_W0QQitemZ220544340069QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBoat_Parts_Accessories_Gear?hash=item3359779065

That's definitely something I would at least consider. But the 'local pickup in Florida within 30 days' thing kind of leaves me out.....

[souljour2000]

I would like to know more about her..they didn't give much info at all on her specs...almost nothing...she's seen better days..hopefully someone can bring her back right...l

[troy2000]

I would like to know more about her..they didn't give much info at all on her specs...almost nothing...she's seen better days..hopefully someone can bring her back right...l

I got the impression the seller doesn't really know much about her, or about boats in general. Maybe it came with the house he bought,or something.

[souljour2000]

Yeah...most people who know much of anything about sailboats would have given at least a few token specs...if this is so...she could have a low reserve price...or a ridiculously steep one i suppose...

[troy2000]

I thought I posted this before , but her it is again .
It shows a Parker build . This is pretty standard for a ply sharpie .
I am working on a dory sharpie-design , and it will be built this way .

http://schooneribis.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=4

I just spent more time studying the photo's at this link, Frank, and wanted to thank you again for posting it. Very educational.

[Earl Boebert]

For those who love sharpies but don't have the resources for a big one, here are pictures of R/C sailing models of a 44 foot North Carolina Oyster Sharpie. 50" long, 14 lbs, sails like a witch, planes downwind. Plans and laser cut frames are available. PM me if you are interested. Warning: sailing model schooners can be addictive :-)

Cheers,

Earl Boebert
Historian, U.S. Vintage Model Yacht Group

[Boston]

go earl
that thing is really nice looking
did you build it?
cause you did a great job

cheers
B

[kayaker50]

Bravo Earl!
Troy, looks like you've got a little competition!
Chip.

[troy2000]

Bravo Earl!
Troy, looks like you've got a little competition!
Chip.

Doesn't look to me like there's any competition at all...he's up in the majors, and I'm still putzing around in summer ball.;)

I've been down pretty sick for the last couple of weeks. I've been working and sleeping, working and sleeping, trying to shake it off. I finally got this week off, and the first night home I slept fifteen hours.

So I haven't been real ambitious. But I have the deck about half-framed, and I'm looking at the centerboard and cockpit construction. Hopefully I'll have something worth taking pictures of by the time the weekend is over with.

[Boston]

the cat is just waiting for some fresh glue to be handy and then will undoubtedly be making another appearance :P :P :P

[Earl Boebert]

go earl
that thing is really nice looking
did you build it?
cause you did a great job

cheers
B

No, wish I was that good. It was done by Tom Pratt in Ohio. He set up a build program at a local senior center and they did a half dozen or so. Another bunch exists at Solomons Island, MD, at the club that builds and sails out of the Calvert Marine Museum.

Cheers,

Earl

[Boston]

if a sharpie could be built with some decent head room under the 40' mark I'd give them more consideration
thing is even with that nice deck house there is not room to stand

[troy2000]

if a sharpie could be built with some decent head room under the 40' mark I'd give them more consideration
thing is even with that nice deck house there is not room to stand

Well, they are what they are. At least the traditional ones are, or those closely based on them....

It depends on what you want in a boat. I want trailerability, shoal draft, low cost and ease of construction, something that'll get up and move under a simple rig, etc. It will probably never see salt water, much less do any serious voyaging. It's going to be a weekender, a fishing platform, transportation to swimming coves and shade trees for BBQ's, something to button up and take out to play with in the afternoon winds.

For my purposes, headroom isn't all that important. I'm not going to be living aboard or taking long cruises, and I live in a climate where I don't need to hide from the weather for extended periods of time. To me a cabin is storage, a comfortable place to sit down with friends in the evening for a drink or two, somewhere to stretch out for a good night's rest, a bit of privacy for going to the head, somewhere to retain retain my dignity while putting my pants on in the morning. So the length of the cabin is more important to me than the height, as long as I have comfortable sitting room.

[troy2000]

OK, time to pick brains. I laid out a deck beam pattern for my sharpie model, using the traditional method. I'm making a pile of deck beams to the extreme width of the boat, and cutting them down to fit at each station.

Because of the sheer, and because the boat tapers at each end, sticking strictly to the pattern is giving me a bit of a 'dished' deck crown fore and aft, that's a compromise between a straight line and the sheer of the boat.

I don't think it looks bad, but I'm thinking it might be a booger to deck with sheet plywood on the real boat. Should I set a deck beam at the front of the cabin, lay a straight edge from there to the bow, and fudge the intermediate beams to that straight line?

And ditto, aft: should I set the forward beam of the bridge deck, lay a straight edge from there to the transom, and fudge the deck crown to that line?

I've been a little casual about it so far, since I'm building in balsa. I can glue strips of balsa on top of the low beams, and shape them to fit with a sanding block. Or sand down the high ones, or whatever.

I went back to balsa for the deck beams, by the way. The ply had horrendous voids in it (that I wouldn't have expected in something from Finland). So I glued pairs of sheet balsa together for a thickness of 3/16", and cut the beams out of that.

I spent a couple of minutes slapping myself around, for forgetting the basics of woodworking tools just because I'm working in miniature. Then I took a fine stone and dressed the sides of the teeth on the blade of the coping saw, like I used to do with full-sized handsaws after setting and sharpening them. It cured most of the raggedness of the cut, and also most of the tendency to catch and turn off-line while cutting.

But if I had this to do over again, I'd go back to what I've used on my models in the past. I'd go buy a stick of 1x12 sugar pine, put a good-quality plywood blade on my table saw, and rip out the miniature lumber and planking I needed from scratch. Sugar pine is soft, even-grained and almost as easy to work as balsa, but several times stronger.

Of course, back then I was still contracting, and had a full wood shop--including an antique, tilt-top, furniture maker's table saw in one corner, that was perfect for that sort of thing.

[Boston]

oh I can see the sharpie as having a definite advantage for your intended use but as you pointed out Im going to at least be coastal cruising, if Im lucky and can claw my way back to being financially comfortable again, fingers crossed.

B

[Boston]

if you put any rocker at all in the beams then no matter how you slice it the deck with end up with a rocker as well
so a straight edge to build to wont help you much
just measure and cut each from the center out and you should be fine at least to get them down
fairing them shouldn't be to much trouble

[troy2000]

if you put any rocker at all in the beams then no matter how you slice it the deck with end up with a rocker as well
so a straight edge to build to wont help you much
just measure and cut each from the center out and you should be fine at least to get them down
fairing them shouldn't be to much trouble
Well, obviously each beam has a rocker; I cut them that way.:)

I'm talking about the high center of the deck crown being dished fore and aft. On a smaller boat there would be no question; I'd straighten the line out and be done with it. On one this size, I'm not sure whether I should or not....but not doing so introduces a compound curve that I would think is significantly harder to deck with sheet plywood. On a planked deck, no problem.

[Boston]

I'd want some crown to it just for the strength
at least in the full size one

Dam just finished a chunk of buffalo I had marinating in Saki and red onions for a few days
grilled it up on the barby and yum
I am wallowing in culinary bliss at the moment

[troy2000]

I'd want some crown to it just for the strength
at least in the full size one

Dam just finished a chunk of buffalo I had marinating in Saki and red onions for a few days
grilled it up on the barby and yum
I am wallowing in culinary bliss at the moment

That sounds good. The last buffalo meat I had was ground. So I made patties with a pat of herbed butter in the middle of each patty, and grilled them over mesquite.

I'm not sure we're communicating here. Athwartships, the deck is crowned. But since the height of the crown on each individual beam is dependent on how long it is, and also on the sheer of the boat, I'm getting a 'dish' in the centerline of the deck fore and aft--which has nothing at all to do with structural strength.

Visually, that's no problem. After all, it somewhat follows the sheer. But it introduces a compound curve in the deck, which could be hard to sheet with plywood instead of planking.

[troy2000]

Double diagonal plank (plywood) the roof and the compound is taken care of.

Well, I was talking about the deck, not the cabin top. But double diagonal planking would certainly work in either case. Although it's significantly more time-consuming, and a little more complicated, than anything else I plan on doing to the boat...

[Boston]

hmmm
dont recall dealing with that one before
or if I did I dont rememeber it being an issue
although I never used ply in building till I got to the residential industry
I'd be inclined to take Par's advice

cheers
B

and ya
dont go for ground
try a pot roast and cube it next time then marinate it for a few days in Saki
you will love it
shitaki mushrooms maybe and some asparagus or broccoli
that and jalapeno mashers
red russets of course skin on in heavy cream and with gobs of butter

worry about the heart attack later

[troy2000]

hmmm
dont recall dealing with that one before
or if I did I dont rememeber it being an issue
although I never used ply in building till I got to the residential industry
I'd be inclined to take Par's advice

cheers
B

and ya
dont go for ground
try a pot roast and cube it next time then marinate it for a few days in Saki
you will love it
shitaki mushrooms maybe and some asparagus or broccoli
that and jalapeno mashers
red russets of course skin on in heavy cream and with gobs of butter

worry about the heart attack later

I got back to my roots this morning for breakfast: I made corn meal mush with butter, brown sugar and light cream. I also fried up some spicy pork sausage, and crumbled that into it.

[kayaker50]

OK, time to pick brains. I laid out a deck beam pattern for my sharpie model, using the traditional method. I'm making a pile of deck beams to the extreme width of the boat, and cutting them down to fit at each station.

Because of the sheer, and because the boat tapers at each end, sticking strictly to the pattern is giving me a bit of a 'dished' deck crown fore and aft, that's a compromise between a straight line and the sheer of the boat.

I don't think it looks bad, but I'm thinking it might be a booger to deck with sheet plywood on the real boat. Should I set a deck beam at the front of the cabin, lay a straight edge from there to the bow, and fudge the intermediate beams to that straight line?

And ditto, aft: should I set the forward beam of the bridge deck, lay a straight edge from there to the transom, and fudge the deck crown to that line?

I've been a little casual about it so far, since I'm building in balsa. I can glue strips of balsa on top of the low beams, and shape them to fit with a sanding block. Or sand down the high ones, or whatever.

I went back to balsa for the deck beams, by the way. The ply had horrendous voids in it (that I wouldn't have expected in something from Finland). So I glued pairs of sheet balsa together for a thickness of 3/16", and cut the beams out of that.

I spent a couple of minutes slapping myself around, for forgetting the basics of woodworking tools just because I'm working in miniature. Then I took a fine stone and dressed the sides of the teeth on the blade of the coping saw, like I used to do with full-sized handsaws after setting and sharpening them. It cured most of the raggedness of the cut, and also most of the tendency to catch and turn off-line while cutting.

But if I had this to do over again, I'd go back to what I've used on my models in the past. I'd go buy a stick of 1x12 sugar pine, put a good-quality plywood blade on my table saw, and rip out the miniature lumber and planking I needed from scratch. Sugar pine is soft, even-grained and almost as easy to work as balsa, but several times stronger.

Of course, back then I was still contracting, and had a full wood shop--including an antique, tilt-top, furniture maker's table saw in one corner, that was perfect for that sort of thing.
Could you stack two deck beams, then shave the ends so the middle is taller? Hope you feel better. Chip.

[troy2000]

Could you stack two deck beams, then shave the ends so the middle is taller? Hope you feel better. Chip.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean stack them on top of each other, I don't think I need that much extra on any of them, no matter what I do. Just laminating a thin strip on top would do it. I always wind up fairing deck beams one way or another anyway, unless I loft each and every one of them individually. And even then they always need a little fudging. Maybe I'm just not a professional boat deck builder.

Yes, I'm feeling better. Not good yet, but better. I'm strong enough to start getting grouchy again...:p

Been about 15 years or so since I went down sick like this; usually I just keep plugging away while everyone else catches whatever is going around.

[kayaker50]

If I understand you correctly, the deck is dished because the tops beams are too low? If this is so, you can use two beams, one atop the other to make them taller.
Also, could it be that the sheer is too high? It'd be interresting to measure the sheer on your model, then convert it to the sheer of the full size boat.
I have bought plans for Ruel Parker's 22 foot Cedar Keys sharpie to build as a 'warm up' for the real thing.
Chip.

[troy2000]

If I understand you correctly, the deck is dished because the tops beams are too low? If this is so, you can use two beams, one atop the other to make them taller.
Also, could it be that the sheer is too high? It'd be interresting to measure the sheer on your model, then convert it to the sheer of the full size boat.
I have bought plans for Ruel Parker's 22 foot Cedar Keys sharpie to build as a 'warm up' for the real thing.
Chip.

OK. We're on the same page. But I don't need enough extra meat to stack entire beams. I can just laminate a thin layer on top of the low ones and reshape them, if I decide to go that route.

Yes, I have a strong sheer--as you can see from the pictures. But it's no stronger than on the original working sharpies. However, I did make the crown quite a bit higher than the originals had. Chapelle shows a crown of 2 1/2" for a beam of 7' 2" on a racing sharpie; mine is laid out as 6" for a 7-4" beam. That's partly to give more headroom in the V-berth; every inch helps. And since the cockpit is actually just a shallow foot well with the deck itself being the seating, the crown makes for a more comfortable seat angle.

[Boston]

how about if you just give it enough camber to not be dished or maybe find a balance by adjusting the sheer line
seems like a dished deck would not be to ascetically pleasing anyway

PS
what no grits
sacrilege

[messabout]

Troy; You can save a bunch of lofting and grief in laying out your deck beams or other side to side cambered things like arc bottoms. If I was smart enough I would include a sketch of a simple tool that you can make. Failing that ability, I will attempt to describe it.

Find two straight sticks, each a little longer than the maximum span of the deck. Bevel one end of each stick about 8 or 10 degrees. Join the beveled ends of the sticks so that they are firmly attached. Use a plywood scab or whatever plate you choose. You now have a wide vee shaped thing that resembles the top of a roof truss. Cut a small notch on the underside of the vee apex. The notch will position a pencil.

Temporarily fit and clamp into place, the uncut planks that will be the deck beams. You can notch and bevel the ends of the beams just as though you were going to install them permanently. The sheer ends will stick up an amount that will equal or excede the height of the crown. Use the vee thingy by sliding it from side to side while pressed against the deck beam. The pencil, that is held in the notch will make geometrically perfect marks. Procede to the next stations and repeat. Make all the marks on the side of the beams that are nearest the middle of the boat.

Cut the beams to the marks, re-install them. A careful bit of planing forward of the previously penciled sides of the planks will yield a nicely faired set of deck beams. No hollows, no problems.

The angle of the vee thing can be fiddled up so as to create any amount of camber that you choose. We can calculate the camber with trig but it is easier to experiment to find a curve that you like. Begin with a slope of the roof truss at about one and three quarters on twelve. That'll give a camber of about 3/4 inch per twelve inches of span.. The steeper the angle the more camber and visa versa.

[troy2000]

how about if you just give it enough camber to not be dished or maybe find a balance by adjusting the sheer line
seems like a dished deck would not be to ascetically pleasing anyway

PS
what no grits
sacrilege

Not touching the !@#$ sheer line! I went to a whole lot of trouble getting it right....:D

I'm still not sure we're communicating here. The whole deck does have crown, (or camber or whatever you want to call it), from side to side. But fore and aft the centerline of the deck somewhat follows the sheer, instead of being a straight line. That's absolutely fine for looks and strength; trust me.

The problem is that combined with the crown athwartships, it makes the surface of the deck a compound curve, which is hard to sheath with solid plywood. That's not a disaster. If I want to use sheet plywood anyway, I can torture it a little--maybe by using thin sheets, and laminating a double layer. Or I can fudge the shape of each beam, so that the centerline of the deck fore and aft is a straight line from cabin to bow, and from cabin to stern, which will remove the compound curve.

It isn't a major conundrum; I didn't mean to spend a page and a half on it. It's just something to deal with, one way or another....

[Boston]

I got you Im just saying that a large enough sheer makes getting a comfortable camber a bit difficult
either you have a huge crown up buy the bow or you alter the sheer
sounds like that sheer is going no where

just string line from stem to stern and set the crown that way
put a toe rail on it and be done
if you dont like it rip it offf and do it again

that or you could recess the line of the deck below the line of the sheer rather than aim for a flush deck

[troy2000]

I got you Im just saying that a large enough sheer makes getting a comfortable camber a bit difficult
either you have a huge crown up buy the bow or you alter the sheer
sounds like that sheer is going no where

just string line from stem to stern and set the crown that way
put a toe rail on it and be done
if you dont like it rip it offf and do it again

that or you could recess the line of the deck below the line of the sheer rather than aim for a flush deck

Allow me to repeat myself. The sheer is quite appropriate for the boat; not touching it. It's actually fairly modest for this type of vessel, especially compared to something like Munroe's Egret. The old sharpies solved the deck problem by simply getting rid of most of the crown, and letting the deck follow the sheer. What modest crown they did have was no problem with a planked deck. I want more crown than they had, so I'll deal with it.

Stringing the deck from stem to stern would give me a ski-slope deck, everywhere but at the ends. But the cabin is a long one and almost full width, with just a few inches of deck on either side. So stringing from cabin to bow, and from cabin to stern, would work. That's what I was contemplating, with all the talk about shimming the top of the beams. But combined with the straight run of the bottom in the forward and after thirds, it might give the boat kind of a clunky, boxy look in profile.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/003-5-1.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/002-6-1.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/troybytheriver/001-3-1.jpg

edit: the model is down a bit at the bow, in that profile shot. It should be higher than the stern. One of the hazards of balancing it on the nearest handy surface for a quick snapshot....

[Boston]

flat decks just look bad
go with the crown and a straight top line stem to stern
cheers
B

[troy2000]

flat decks just look bad
go with the crown and a straight top line stem to stern
cheers
B
A straight line stem to stern would give me a crown of over a foot for a seven-foot beam, at the bridge deck. Thanks, but no thanks....;)

It isn't going to have a flat deck. If I do decide to string it bow to cabin, and cabin to stern, the deck beams at each end of the cabin will have an appropriate crown to them. So will the transom.

[frank smith]

Decks and roofs have sheer as well as crown to them. If well designed (not an easy thing and a dead give away as to a novice designer) they are easy to build. A straight profile, rather then sheered is the look of a rank amateur. Only a few boat styles can get away with a straight roof line, such as some houseboats. A really short length roof or deck can get away with this treatment, but once over 5' long, you really need to put some sweep in it.

There are time when compromises must be made for that material used. I think what compromise is best is the test . here is a straight cabin of ply.http://www.dillon-racing.com/nis29/images/sailplan.jpg

I dont see that the deck cannot be designed to use ply. the question is how.
I would experiment with thin model ply and try for a visual approximation .
I hope I did not offend by jumping in .

[troy2000]

There are time when compromises must be made for that material used. I think what compromise is best is the test . here is a straight cabin of ply.http://www.dillon-racing.com/nis29/images/sailplan.jpg

I dont see that the deck cannot be designed to use ply. the question is how.
I would experiment with thin model ply and try for a visual approximation .
I hope I did not offend by jumping in .

No offense here. If I didn't want people talking about the subject, I wouldn't be posting.

[Boston]

`I think Par nailed it when he suggested the diagonal ply strip method
you could also do a basic for and aft planking but it would not be as strong or as waterproof

[troy2000]

On as small a sheer as is usually seen in a deck or roof, the angles for a double diagonal plywood planking wouldn't be much, maybe 10 degrees. This keeps the longitudinal loads oriented where you want them, yet permits the plywood to accept the conical layout. The double diagonal arrangement is also stronger and could serve without beams, further improving headroom.

I wouldn't want to comment on the aesthetics of that roof line, which robs headroom forward and places it aft.
Can you recommend a reference work for the double diagonal plywood planking? I've never done it, or watched it done.

Not having beams to knock my head against in a low cabin does sound tempting, as does being able to hold a pleasing shape on the deck without resorting to board planking.

[Boston]

go ceder and diagonal planking maybe
keep it simple keep it cheep
over a temp foam form ?

just an idea

[frank smith]

Give yourself a break ,it is a simple sharpie , why add all that extra work and expense . Just slice it up the middle and force it into place , the **** will move more than you think. Take a look at parkers boats , keep it simple . Btw if you want diagonal strip ply ,check Parkers book out " The New Cold Molded Boatbuilding " , it is all there , and more.

committees dont build boats , men do .

[troy2000]

Give yourself a break ,it is a simple sharpie , why add all that extra work and expense . Just slice it up the middle and force it into place , the **** will move more than you think. Take a look at parkers boats , keep it simple . Btw if you want diagonal strip ply ,check Parkers book out " The New Cold Molded Boatbuilding " , it is all there , and more.

committees dont build boats , men do .

If I think I can get away with laminating two layers of 1/4' ply, that's what I'll probably do. As you say, it's a sharpie. Every time I get tempted to gussy it up, I pull myself up short with that reminder.

But if I do get fancy anywhere, it'll probably be the deck. So I'll look Par's suggestion over seriously.

One other place I might get fancy: I might build up the cabin trunk of redwood planks. Then finish it bright, and do the rest of the boat in a two-tone job that matches the rose vale and cream colors of the heartwood and sapwood....

Thickness-planing, jointing and edge-fastening solid redwood planks would be a fairly straightforward task for me; I have the tools and the skills.

[Boston]

Red wood with tunge oil looks great
I'd use a hardening oil before hand and the right Tunge oil
the boiled stuff you will need to sand in order to re-coat each spring
the pure stuff you can just slather on some more and it soaks right in

stuff also swells and shrinks like a banshee so given its a deck house roof and all you might treat each piece individually and then lay it down over some thin ply cause I just cant see it holding water as simple planks up on the roof

might think of an alkali based stain as a hardener
something light so as not to wreck the redwood

cheers
B

[Angélique]

Can you recommend a reference work for the double diagonal plywood planking? I've never done it, or watched it done.

Norwalk Islands Sharpies Forum, message #381, Mon Aug 25, 2008 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nisboats/message/381?l=1):

‘‘ .... The 23 and and 26 now have radiused bottoms, and the 29 is to follow. This has gained head room space, we are fiddiling with the coachroof while keeping the dead elegant look to get effective headroom near the closed copmpanionway area, any way. It's nice to stand up and pull your jocks on! .... ’’

The radiused bottom is easy, double diagonal plywood planking over a first layer of planks that are 90° to the keelson, no stringers.

Ask Robert Ayliffe of NIS boats for the build method of the radiused bottomed NIS 23/26/29. A friend of mine got a sketch from Robert that made it clear. But he got it by private mail, so I don't think it's right to publish it here. Maybe you can use the method for your deck and/or roof as well.

Good luck!

Angel

PS
Ask Robert if you can publish the sketch here.

[frank smith]

You'd be insane to mix traditional building methods, where moisture content is required for water tightness with glued joints and epoxy coating. Pick one, encapsulation or traditional, they don't mix worth a darn. Also oil finishes are easy, but really don't protect much and require several more times the level of maintenance of other types of finishes.

It is easy to add a veneer to cabin sides or transom , then the hole boat can be encapsulated . Although I have had no problem with just glassing the outside of ply hulls , I have also seen a lot of busted glass seams on other boats

[Tanton]

8M. Ply.
Full headroom

[souljour2000]

This is a " sharpie talk " thread ....who said anything about catboats...can you promote your boat design elsewhere please..?thanks..

[troy2000]

Red wood with tunge oil looks great
I'd use a hardening oil before hand and the right Tunge oil
the boiled stuff you will need to sand in order to re-coat each spring
the pure stuff you can just slather on some more and it soaks right in

stuff also swells and shrinks like a banshee so given its a deck house roof and all you might treat each piece individually and then lay it down over some thin ply cause I just cant see it holding water as simple planks up on the roof

might think of an alkali based stain as a hardener
something light so as not to wreck the redwood

cheers
B
I didn't make myself clear, I guess. I was talking about doing the cabin sides in redwood, not the top. I would use 2x4 or 2x6 redwood planks planed to 1 1/8" or 1 1/4", and through-bolt them to a deck carlin.
You'd be insane to mix traditional building methods, where moisture content is required for water tightness with glued joints and epoxy coating. Pick one, encapsulation or traditional, they don't mix worth a darn. Also oil finishes are easy, but really don't protect much and require several more times the level of maintenance of other types of finishes.

I wasn't thinking of encapsulating anything, unless it would be the double-diagonal plywood strip deck you suggested.

edit: I just checked on Amazon. Looks like Woodenboat has republished Reuel Parker's book, The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding: From Lofting to Launching, in paperback. It's only $13.57 plus shipping, but I've already blown my budget for books this week. I'll put it on the list for next payday....:p

[Boston]

sounds like my next book purchase
B

[Tanton]

This is a " sharpie talk " thread ....who said anything about catboats...can you promote your boat design elsewhere please..?thanks..

She is a sharpie; or she is a sharpie?

[troy2000]

She is a sharpie; or she is a sharpie?

Nope, not a sharpie. No way; nohow. Way too fat.

Interesting-looking design anyway, though.

[Zed]

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[troy2000]

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I take it those are Lightweight Australian Sharpies? I've never seen them in action before; they look like a lot of fun.

A whole different animal from what I'm working on, of course.

[Zed]

They are fun, have had a long following in certain parts of Oz.

[troy2000]

They are fun, have had a long following in certain parts of Oz.

I can see why they would have. I'm surprised there aren't a bunch of them here in the States. Or maybe there are, and I just didn't know it.

[Zed]

Never seen a US version, but then I have never really looked.

A whole different animal from what I'm working on, of course.

but...

You may find something interesting here.

http://www.sharpies.com.au/AboutSharpies.html

http://www.sharpies.org.uk/

[troy2000]

Well, at the second link, I found a wonderful bit of British understatement and tact:

Dear sharpie owners,

When moving GBR 130 “Pericles” recently it was discovered that the gaff is no longer with the boat.

She has not been sailed for a number of years but has been stored in very close proximity to the hard at BSSC. Would you please cast your mind back over the past few years just in case you can recall borrowing a gaff as a temporary fix whilst sailing at Brancaster. The owner is more than happy to lend the spar, but could do with it back now to complete the boat please.

I'll never be that diplomatic, even if I live another 60 years.:p

[Boston]

star class if I remember
they race those on lake Dillen just up the road from here

[Zed]

Whats a Star?

[Angélique]

In Oz they build them in plastic. In Holland and many other countries they build -and race- them in wood.

http://www.sharpie.nl/fotoboek/151.jpg

http://www.sharpie.nl/techniek/sharpiebouwtekening.jpg

Here a full set of drawings (http://www.sharpie.nl/techniek.htm)and the Class Rules.

A lot of info here (http://www.sharpie.nl/)(Dutch). And many inernational links here (http://www.sharpie.nl/links.htm).

Cheers!
Angel

[Angélique]

http://www.sharpie.nl/pers/sharpiesong.jpg

Here's the music http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Musical_notes.svg/30px-Musical_notes.svg.png . . . (http://www.sharpie.nl/pers/sharpiesong.htm)You have to sing it yourself.... :)

Cheers!
Angel

[Crag Cay]

Yes the 12 square metre sharpies are alive and well and living (in the UK) along the north Norfolk coast. They are not really a 'revival class' as they never went away and have been the mainstay of the sailing club at Wells (especially) for 60 years or so.

As said they are also popular in Holland, Germany and Portugal with some in S America as well. The Australian legacy is the result of the 1956 Olympics in Melbourne where they were the two man class. Lots of boats went out for this, but such was the transport costs in those days, that many were left behind after the games.

The lightweight sharpies were the same hull shape but made in thin ply instead of centimetre thick solid gaboon planking. They also had a tall bermudan rig, originally using a 505 mast but mounted on deck for extra height? Only one lightweight was built in the UK (by Richard Cracknell in the 70's), but a whole generation of youngsters cut their teeth on it, learning about multi trapeze boats long before 'skiffs' made an appearance in Europe.

[frank smith]

Norwalk Islands Sharpies Forum, message #381, Mon Aug 25, 2008 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nisboats/message/381?l=1):

‘‘ .... The 23 and and 26 now have radiused bottoms, and the 29 is to follow. This has gained head room space, we are fiddiling with the coachroof while keeping the dead elegant look to get effective headroom near the closed copmpanionway area, any way. It's nice to stand up and pull your jocks on! .... ’’

The radiused bottom is easy, double diagonal plywood planking over a first layer of planks that are 90° to the keelson, no stringers.

Ask Robert Ayliffe of NIS boats for the build method of the radiused bottomed NIS 23/26/29. A friend of mine got a sketch from Robert that made it clear. But he got it by private mail, so I don't think it's right to publish it here. Maybe you can use the method for your deck and/or roof as well.

Good luck!

Angel

PS
Ask Robert if you can publish the sketch here.

That is just like Parker's method, and has the advantage of getting the ballast lower , also easier to get lower Cp .