View Full Version : Is a yacht has to be design?
dskira
11-04-2009, 04:32 PM
Hi everybody
Beside the obvious need of naval architects to design a yacht, is the same hull has to go to other peoples to have her superstructures and sides and deck designed which means stylised? And then to other peoples again to be decorated by interiors stylists ? or it is just middle peoples taking advantage of a project, boosting the price of the yacht?
Is these peoples are needed in yacht design? Do they contribute to the value of the original design?
Perhaps yes, perhaps no, I don't know the answer, I just would like your opinions :?:
Cheers
Daniel
rwatson
11-04-2009, 05:03 PM
Of course. Especially on larger projects. Review and input from experienced people is always a great (if not essential) idea.
Thats why we have these forums :-)
I am a big fan of getting professional help, especially after having had some plans drawn up for my own use. Mind you, it took two designers and several years, but the results are exceptional.
Generally speaking, I consider every dollar spent on planning and advice saves five dollars on mistakes, and increases return on investment by a similar amount.
Isnt it intresting, how many people think, engineers, designers and other specialists, only jack up the price of a project. Its rare to hear the average person talk about how much value these very people add to a project.
As for myself, I have seen projects done both with and without the "experts" and Ill take the modest price of the experts/engineers every time.
K9
apex1
11-04-2009, 06:01 PM
No Daniel, we do´nt need them.
Having a able NA and a good yard will make a good yacht, sure. But..
A independent project manager can be a sensible investment for the owner.
Unfortunately many NA / Designers are very good in technical terms, but styling is not what they are best on. Or vice versa. Dick Boon was a good example of the former case. Perfection down to the last bolt, but ugly sampans.
In the megayacht scene it is very common that owners go for a stylish drawing and engage the "stylist" of choice, then often another for the interior.
The result is a nightmare in every case and every time that happens. Why?
Almost all of these "stylists" (I have difficulties to call some of them designers), are like primadonnas, and do´nt like to cooperate with others.
TAD, I´m sure, can tell some stories how some of them behave.
And No, they do not add substantially to the value. The name of the builder makes the boats value, and the well known NA, not the ext. or int. stylist. The opposite is true quite often, same Feadship in technical terms, same period built (one year more or less is nothing), one with a decent, classical, practical interior, the other with a blitz, glitz, bang boom interior (I do´nt say her name). You may guess which one was a year longer in the ads. though about one third cheaper. Means, the difference was higher than a complete refurbishment did cost.
Richard
dskira
11-04-2009, 07:06 PM
As for myself, I have seen projects done both with and without the "experts" and Ill take the modest price of the experts/engineers every time
Of course Kay9 I agree with you. I was talking of stylist designer and decorators. The specialist in plumbing, electrical, engineers, painters of course we need them they are part of the gang who built the yacht. And they have to be well paid.
Having a able NA and a good yard will make a good yacht, sure. But..
A independent project manager can be a sensible investment for the owner.
Yes Richard, that the most important point, the independant project manager is the key to the success of the whole project.
The megayacht scene is full of opportunists, even industrial designer who never went on a boat, are asked to design them. Some home architect designed a boat praised by all the so call yacht press. They didn't talk about the time and effort the engineer of Lurssen had to spend to make his design possible. Or the chandelier an imbecile French designer wanted to put in the ......pilot house of a Feedship. They had to stop him. :mad:
I see the project manager as a teacher for all the parties.
I think his role is more and more also to educate the owner, but also the naval architect and the boatyard to work all together. Let's face it, we (Ok I :D ) have a tendency to take the client where I want to go, living sometime what he want on the side of the road (Whaoo, that was a hard confession!)
I am just puzzle, but I don't know like Tad the world of the super rich and famous who order magayacht, at the attitude of the different parties involve.
It seams a lot of time and money are just wasted, for a yacht that anyway will be on the market after two years.
I see also a lot of the project managers are the captain. I am not sure eather this work. The futur captain of the yacht do not have the knoweldge of boat building, naval architecture, accounting and other complexity aspect of a project.
Generally speaking, I consider every dollar spent on planning and advice saves five dollars on mistakes, and increases return on investment by a similar amount.
But of course Watson, I agree with you. Advices can be conterproductives if not treated carefully. To many time advices come from source which has nothing to do, but give advices :D
It happened to me and I almost lost a contract, because the owner had some "advices"
But planning, yes it is the key.
It is not because I started it, but I realy enjoy this discussion. Thank you.
Cheers
Daniel
Ad Hoc
11-04-2009, 08:20 PM
If you are talking about "style", this is in today's world mixed up with "design/style". Such as interior 'designer', a hair stylist, a CAD designer. the term designer/stylist permeates everywhere and has been 'reinvented' by each new recipient, to shout their cause.
Their aft/craft is making things "look" nice. It is a real skill for those that have it. Being able to use colours and shapes to full effect is very obvious when you see the before and after, by a professional.
The same is true of as you say plumbers, welders or electricians etc..i would add in fact, all trades. I have seen jobs done by really poor quality tradesman skilled and semi-skilled, shocking! I have also seen seriously good quality too. Most of the "hardware or real work" side is behind, it is behind the linings, under the carpet, ie it is out of sight. As such things which are out of sight are given very low importance.
Those which are visible, the look of the boat (the style) the interior layout and colours etc,....these are what the client is paying for...an image. The client doesn't care if the weld is not 100%, or if the pipe will leak eventually....they have maintenance staff for that!
Whether we (naval architects) like it or not most clients haven't a clue about manufacturing and quality, all they care about is image. The image helps sell them and who they are...
All those famous Stylists/Designers such as Bannenberg, Disdale etc, non of them are naval architects, they get "others" to do this work for them. Their 'art' is creating an image.
Everything is about image......why do you think everyone wants to learn how to use software these days??..because the output, is a glossy looking image.
Image is everything.....
That is where a good project manager can help bridge that void. To ensure that the image can be built and on budget and on time. Good ones, know this..poor ones, say how difficult it is and constantly complain....
rwatson
11-04-2009, 08:50 PM
If you are talking about "style", this is in today's world
Image is everything.....
Hit the nail right on the head - so much trouble can hide under the shiny surface.
Mind you, boats often have to fulfill the twin roles of "eye candy" and "functionality". Even really industrial hulls need to be pleasing to the owners eye in a lot of cases.
One often neglected virtue of "good looks", is the motivation to repair and maintain.
For example, those old "curvaceous" 100 year old wooden boats may get a lot of money spent on them not because its economical, but because someone is inspired by the "looks".
I would like to know whether ugly boats are left to rot and sink sooner, even though they are basically the same condition as better looking boats.
Yes, making image is important nowdays. But working with outside designer/stylist is a nightmare! Most of them come from condo or car market and have no idea about weight control or visibility from steering station.
We have solution for this: we hire our own interior and industrial designers. They stay on the same floor with NAs/engineers, and I often see them discussing interior details with structural engineers. Basically, we produce complete design within one team and won't involve in work with outside designers - due to complications and 'educational seminars' we have to provide for newcomers.
As to exterior styling of boat - saying 'naval architect' one should put more attention to the word 'architect'. It explains everything.
Alik, your process of "control" is a common method and a successful one. Ultimately, any specific design is going to be hung around the neck of one person, usually the lead NA. He may not have signed off on every drawing, but when the assessments hit the magazines and boat show reviews, "his design" will be the one under the microscope. Of course the company he's commissioned with or employed by will have a say in they way things look, heaven forbid a specific Clorox bottle doesn't carry the company's special Clorox bottle look. In the end the NA will have to put their foot down when the marketing team attempts to put 3 more cup holders in the aft head. The ones that let the commissioner run them, produce junk. The NA's that will not be swayed, have little choice but to hang their own shingle and hope for custom work. This is why custom and semi custom shops produce much finer levels of yacht then the production builders. They can afford to be a little more closed minded about everything and focus on a good product, instead of one that will appease as many as possible.
capt vimes
11-05-2009, 04:21 AM
since megayachts have been mentioned...
most of those ships are just for a big 'show-off'... very little of those will actually be brought to their destination - sailing the world!
hence the desire to have a shinny, exceptional looking and ridicolously expensive 'image'.... nobody cares about functionality under the skin because lying at a mooring for some event and partying on it does not require good performance... eh? ;)
Hummmmm.......well....yes, I could tell some tales.....but I won't. Generally I respect the people involved too much.
Designing really large yachts, with million dollar design fees, becomes a very political undertaking. I mostly avoid it these days because of the stress, I just don't like the pressure. Working in a large design team can be challenging and educational, or it can be really stupid.
The dividing of responsibilities can be a very good thing, a small design team just cannot put in all the hours required to create a really large yacht. Thus you split things up. I currently sub out some drawings, structural detail mostly. But having outside teams working on stuff adds work, everything must be double checked by the primary.
In days gone by I usually ended up in one of the primary roles, around me would be the interior designer (and his or her staff), the yard engineering staff, the project manager, the owner, the owner's wife, the yard owner, department heads at the yard, suppliers......and on and on......
Everyone had input and favorites, alliances waxed and waned, and as these were multi-year projects some folks lost favor and received blame for things they had no control over.
Dealing with all these parties could get frustrating unless they were interested in working together. Unfortunately they were sometimes more involved in justifying their existence or broadening their personal influence. And I don't count the firm I worked for out of this....because fashion, prestige, and ultimately contracts (our livelihood) depended on it.
Ultimately I believe one unified vision is required to create a really great design......there are very few folks able to pull this off. All the subs have to be willing to serve that overall vision....that's where the problems arise.
yipster
11-05-2009, 01:54 PM
good post Tad, you said it well and mention the stress, almost forgot about the midnight panic calls and what not doing some, sometimes even free, drawings.
production boats have the advantage beeing designed ahead of that game. i belive every one makes sence here but know it o so easely goes wrong
troy2000
11-05-2009, 05:35 PM
One of the primary functions of any interior decorator, or other artsy designer in any medium, is that of convincing the customer that his/her judgment is completely worthless, thereby making the designer indispensable.
I was once doing some finish work in a new house when the furniture for a boy's bedroom was delivered. There were three pieces of furniture, and three walls they could go against. And the homeowner's wife was actually crying, because her interior decorator wasn't there to tell her which piece of furniture should go against which wall....now there was a designer who was good at his job.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not for a moment putting marine architects or their ilk in the same category as interior decorators for airhead housewives.
You know, you guys are really hammering on the interior designers. However you tell me where you can find a sofa with a steel frame that will sit on a simi-rounded bulkhead with a cashmier (sp?) fabric top in the color blue the yacht owners wife wants?
These people have a definite function in the process. Without them you have someone that is not trained in thier field trying to do thier job, with often very bad results.
Im not an interior designer, nor am I a NA. However it seems to me that all you NA's out there that tell everyone how vital you are to the shipbuilding process, should not be so fast to blow off the others in the process.
After all I watched 6 guys in Oman build a 65 Wood Dhow without any plans, or power tools on a beach using wood from India. Im betting the nearest NA was 1000 miles away in Dubai.
My $0.02
K9
daiquiri
11-05-2009, 06:57 PM
This stuff is, imho, the apotheosis of what's been said so far, the perfect case-study for this thread:
http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/8/view/7570/why-wally-hermes-yachts.html
And the best (or worst?) thing is that nearly EVERY yachting magazine these days talks about that floating house (I refuse to call it a ship). So, this case can teach us pretty eloquently that if you want to make a boat that the whole world will talk about, hire a designer specialized in luxury bags and shoes (sounds logical to me, how about you?) and forget about NA's and other monochrome-thinking people.
dskira
11-05-2009, 07:59 PM
This stuff is, imho, the apotheosis of what's been said so far, the perfect case-study for this thread:
http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/8/view/7570/why-wally-hermes-yachts.html
And the best (or worst?) thing is that nearly EVERY yachting magazine these days talks about that floating house (I refuse to call it a ship). So, this case can teach us pretty eloquently that if you want to make a boat that the whole world will talk about, hire a designer specialized in luxury bags and shoes (sounds logical to me, how about you?) and forget about NA's and other monochrome-thinking people.
Interresting. This hull concept was develloped more than twenty years ago in Sweden. Two prototype of more than 4000 tons were built.
It seams working in very high range of displacement. We tryed the concept when the naval architect gave me the authorisation to use his finding for a yacht. It didn't work very well.
It will be an extremely unconfortable ride, and here Wally is going the wrong way. I know that, beleive me.
As for the "styling" Wally as usual is by far not my taste. Over designed style for egocentric Mediterranean buyer.
Money make people do strange things sometime, mostly this urge to be the first, the most advance, the latest the "trend maker"
All superlative are used and behind the glossy rendering a very empty quest for fame and fortune.
About shoes, do not forget that Ferragamo the shoemaker own Nautor Swan. Amusing. :confused:
Cheers
Daniel
troy2000
11-05-2009, 11:50 PM
You know, you guys are really hammering on the interior designers. However you tell me where you can find a sofa with a steel frame that will sit on a simi-rounded bulkhead with a cashmier (sp?) fabric top in the color blue the yacht owners wife wants?
These people have a definite function in the process. Without them you have someone that is not trained in thier field trying to do thier job, with often very bad results.
Im not an interior designer, nor am I a NA. However it seems to me that all you NA's out there that tell everyone how vital you are to the shipbuilding process, should not be so fast to blow off the others in the process.
After all I watched 6 guys in Oman build a 65 Wood Dhow without any plans, or power tools on a beach using wood from India. Im betting the nearest NA was 1000 miles away in Dubai.
My $0.02
K9
Yes, I agree that decorators (or interior designers, if you prefer to call them that) have a quite legitimate function. Unfortunately, their profession as practiced by those I've seen in action seems to be about 20% function and about 80% persuasion.
Way back when, I worked for Tony Duquette for a couple of years as his carpenter, handyman and general go-to guy for building projects. If you aren't familiar with him, he was the art world's version of a hired gun: he would design anything anyone paid him for. And he was good at it. His designs ranged from the sets for the play Camelot (for which he won a Tony) to the bottle for Midori liqueur. In 1951 he was honored with a one-man exhibition at the Louvre in Paris, that included furniture, jewelry, sculptures, paintings and tapestries, plus both costumes and sets for plays.
But when things were slow Tony did interior decorating, from permanent redo's down to decorating for parties. Believe you me, it was quite an education to listen to him convincing a gal with a Malibu beach house that she needed to pay him $10,000 to gussy up her house for a party, if she wanted it to be a success and impress the right people--and that was in 1979 dollars.
I remember being sent to collect a check for Tony one day, and the lady of the house gestured for me to have a seat while she went upstairs for her checkbook. The couch was so deep that I took a cushion leaning against one arm, and stuck it behind my back. When the lady came back down and saw what I had done, she was furious. As soon as I stood up she snatched the cushion from behind me, plumped it out and put it back in the precise position it had been in before....where I have no doubt Tony left it when he finished redecorating her home.
Although looks are important, naval architects and boat designers are held to certain crucial physical and performance standards. At the end of the process, their boats have to float and be suitable for their intended purpose. On the other hand, a much higher part of what interior decorators sell is simply intangible aesthetics.
Of course, if what you happen to want or need is a dhow from Oman built by guys who've basically done the same design over and over for generations, polishing it as they went, I suppose you're right; you don't need a naval architect. The design work has already been done, and they're experienced enough with it to know how far and in what ways it can successfully be modified or developed.
I happen to be putzing around with my own design for a 30' sharpie right now, but it certainly isn't because I don't respect professional designers. If I didn't have 150 years of work by professional builders and designers to distill my own design from, I wouldn't even try it. I'd hand it over to someone who does it for a living. However, I doubt I'll ever hire anyone to "do" my living room for me....
Interior design and decoration are not same.
Scope of interior design for boats and yachts is well presented in book of L.Hix (handbook for Westlawn's interior design course). Ergonomics, space planning, materials, furniture details, lighting fixtures, design of stairs, counters, lockers, fridge boxes... presentation renderigns is only 4(?) pages. Our interior designer calculates weigts and CG of interior items also! I would also add comfort assessment as part of interior design - lighting, accomodations, noise, climate, accelerations. This is good sample of difference between what is interior designer (producing complete interior design ready for manufacturing) and interior decorator (choosing color of wallpaper and making renderings only).
yipster
11-06-2009, 12:18 PM
with one thing in comon grips
troy2000
11-06-2009, 02:31 PM
Interior design and decoration are not same.
Scope of interior design for boats and yachts is well presented in book of L.Hix (handbook for Westlawn's interior design course). Ergonomics, space planning, materials, furniture details, lighting fixtures, design of stairs, counters, lockers, fridge boxes... presentation renderigns is only 4(?) pages. Our interior designer calculates weigts and CG of interior items also! I would also add comfort assessment as part of interior design - lighting, accomodations, noise, climate, accelerations. This is good sample of difference between what is interior designer (producing complete interior design ready for manufacturing) and interior decorator (choosing color of wallpaper and making renderings only).
You're right; there's a difference between an interior decorator and an interior designer, particularly in yachts. I guess I've seen too many onshore decorators try to upgrade their status by calling themselves designers.
It does remind me of a story I read years ago about some prominent family in New England, who brought a fashionable interior decorator aboard their heirloom catboat to spiff it up. He supposedly frowned, pointed at the centerboard trunk and told them, "oh dear....this will simply have to go."
peter radclyffe
11-06-2009, 02:55 PM
One of the primary functions of any interior decorator, or other artsy designer in any medium, is that of convincing the customer that his/her judgment is completely worthless, thereby making the designer indispensable.
I was once doing some finish work in a new house when the furniture for a boy's bedroom was delivered. There were three pieces of furniture, and three walls they could go against. And the homeowner's wife was actually crying, because her interior decorator wasn't there to tell her which piece of furniture should go against which wall....now there was a designer who was good at his job.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not for a moment putting marine architects or their ilk in the same category as interior decorators for airhead housewives.
does she have a handbook to tell her when to enjoy her decor, did she have a wind up key in her back, or does she run on batteries, what a moron
peter radclyffe
11-06-2009, 02:58 PM
You know, you guys are really hammering on the interior designers. However you tell me where you can find a sofa with a steel frame that will sit on a simi-rounded bulkhead with a cashmier (sp?) fabric top in the color blue the yacht owners wife wants?
These people have a definite function in the process. Without them you have someone that is not trained in thier field trying to do thier job, with often very bad results.
Im not an interior designer, nor am I a NA. However it seems to me that all you NA's out there that tell everyone how vital you are to the shipbuilding process, should not be so fast to blow off the others in the process.
After all I watched 6 guys in Oman build a 65 Wood Dhow without any plans, or power tools on a beach using wood from India. Im betting the nearest NA was 1000 miles away in Dubai.
My $0.02
K9
never mind all that , what colour were the dhows curtains
peter radclyffe
11-06-2009, 03:04 PM
Interresting. This hull concept was develloped more than twenty years ago in Sweden. Two prototype of more than 4000 tons were built.
It seams working in very high range of displacement. We tryed the concept when the naval architect gave me the authorisation to use his finding for a yacht. It didn't work very well.
It will be an extremely unconfortable ride, and here Wally is going the wrong way. I know that, beleive me.
As for the "styling" Wally as usual is by far not my taste. Over designed style for egocentric Mediterranean buyer.
Money make people do strange things sometime, mostly this urge to be the first, the most advance, the latest the "trend maker"
All superlative are used and behind the glossy rendering a very empty quest for fame and fortune.
About shoes, do not forget that Ferragamo the shoemaker own Nautor Swan. Amusing. :confused:
Cheers
Daniel
your a master of the understatement Daniel
View Full Version : Is a yacht has to be design?