toyota prius conversion into hybrid river RIB

[arn0]

Dear boatdesigners,
New to that forum, I did a couple of search so sorry if you already studied the question or if it is a stupid one:
Do you think it would be possible to adapt the Toyota Prius engine/electronic on a boat?
I think about a river boat, kind of RIB speedboat, so no worry about salt corrosion...
A used, and even first generation Prius would bring an interesting and cheap global hybrid package (control, battery, engines) + some cool electronics (air conditioning, radio,...).
Sorry again if you think its stupid or already covered, just wanted to share the idea...
Thanks!
Arn0

[apex1]

Does´nt the Toyota generate energy when braking? If so, I would rethink the idea.

Regards
Richard

[arn0]

I believe that the 1st version (before 2004) does not regenerate energy when braking

[gonzo]

There are threads on diesel/electric power plants. They run the generator at maximum output and charge the batteries with the surplus power. Then the shut off the generator and run on battery power. The Prius is designed for different parameters. Also, to use the recharging of batteries as brakes.

[Jimbo1490]

I think the usual caveats about duty cycle in marine vs automotive working environments would apply here, and even more than usual. The motors and generator are probably NOT built or intended for extended high-power operation and will likely burn up.

Jimbo

[mark775]

I spent some time on this idea a few years ago and came to the conclusion that the Synergy Drive, as Toyota calls it, is one of the great inventions of my lifetime. It is a set of planetary gears melded with an electric motor. The beauty is that no matter what the engine is doing, one can control, to the RPM, what the output will be and absorb the excess power with the electric motor (generator, at this time).
I was planning a drive for a turbine engine at the time but foresaw economic problems and sold the Highlander Hybrid last summer.
The Highlander is more robust than the Prius.
The Synergy drives in a wrecked vehicle are very expensive tho prices should come down soon (til now, people have found it profitable to repair wrecked Synergies rather than total the car as one would if the drive were not such a high percentage of value).
The electronics involved are daunting, but if one were to transplant everything as a unit it would be simpler.
For my area, regeneration was one of the coolest aspects of this drive and tho I wasn't complete enough in my studies to know how well it would work to anchor in a current and charge batteries, my feeling is that for certain circumstances such as a short commute on a river, the craft you invision could possibly nearly never need be fueled! (your home and work are two miles apart and there is a two knot current in the river).
The drives were made to be hidden in a car's sheet-metal. The thing will not be as elegant as you hope.
There is a company in California, http://www.solomontechnologies.com/wheel.htm , which argues that Toyota "borrowed" their patented idea. These people are full of forward-looking propaganda, IMO, are difficult to deal with but are probably genius enough to do whatever one can afford.
Bear in mind that all hybrids are not created equal and, for the application you talk about, I feel that this type of tech has much promise. You need to actually learn what is happening in the Synergy. Thankfully there is coming to be much info on-line. Keep us posted! I love this!

[fcfc]

Have you seen this ? http://www.greenlinehybrid.nl/

[apex1]

Jimbo summed it up nicely.
And Gonzo gave the right hint. We had this topic here about a thousand times, in all possible varieties.
In short:
big Hotel load, or very high torque at very low speed, is the daily requirement, then it CAN be sensible to have some sort of El. propulsion aboard.
None of the two mentioned above:
leave it.

Regards
Richard

[mark775]

Richard, one reason I was trying to use the synergy was to help use the rapped-out nature of a turbine (plus I like to tinker). Why wouldn't ANY of the electric propulsion systems be favorable in a current (moored in a river 22 of 24 hous) scenario?
I know that this has been covered but I feel that many don't grasp how the Synergy is diffent than other hybrids. One thing is to be able to dial in prop-shaft RPM while under ICE power and utilize best part of power curve while charging batteries. I'm not suggesting it will replace ICE.

[apex1]

Hi Mark,
this part I do´nt understand:
>>>use the rapped-out nature of a turbine (plus I like to tinker). Why wouldn't ANY of the electric propulsion systems be favorable in a current (moored in a river 22 of 24 hous) scenario?<<<

would you elaborate a bit deeper, or simpler for me? Thanks

[tkk]

I think the "hybrid" here does not refer to what we understand with it in shipbuilding i.e. diesel powered generator and electric propulsion.

I think he is indeed trying to use the mechanism converting a car´s braking energy into electricity by letting the propeller run while moored on a river and using it to run the generator and charge the batteries.

[apex1]

I think he is indeed trying to use the mechanism converting a car´s braking energy into electricity by letting the propeller run while moored on a river and using it to run the generator and charge the batteries.

Thanks,
yeah that makes me understand the sentence. (the words, not the sense)
This sort of setup will not produce much power. What is the current (turning a prop) compared with 1500 kg of mass on the brake, coming down from 80 km/h (to use a moderate speed)? Yes, nothing.

[tkk]

On the other hand, the boat would spend a lot more time moored than the car is being braked. You really need to do the math first.

Anyway, very interesting as a concept.

[apex1]

Nothing to complain tkk.

[gonzo]

The problem with using a propeller for power production, is that the pitch is wrong. You need something with a really high pitch to be efficient. Also, it would put an enormous amount of wear and tear on the shaft, cutlass bearing and stuffing box. Failure or excessive wear on those componenst may cause the boat to sink.

[Submarine Tom]

Good point gonzo.

How about a station on the mooring dock that plugs into the boat.

Specialized propeller, nice and big with lots of gearing...

[gonzo]

I think that an electric boat can be very economical. A backup generator to recharge the batteries would be nice. To charge with current, a dedicated generator would be more efficient and cheaper.

[matt H.]

may be possible to use a fly wheel to store momentous energy on Synergy Drive system in boating applications
by using a gradual momentous transmission to store flywheel energy .

so once you reach desired speed or once the prop reaches torque/speed ratio the energy the motor puts out is redirected to the fly wheel or back to the generator

could be quite efficient pending on the generator and motor and style
of fly wheel

paralax brushless / diamagnetic gen. / flux mirroring dual secondary transformer /
nonatmospheric flywheel
one can dream ...


vice / motor
verse / generator
versa /flywheel

[kistinie]

paralax brushless / diamagnetic gen. / flux mirroring dual secondary transformer /
nonatmospheric flywheel
one can dream ...

;-), what a nice music...

Yes, dreams keep us alive, even doctors agree on this !

Very nice reading. Thanks.

What do you think of, all together, whatever our initial conviction are, design "universal generator for marine use" ISO

We define templates of size, weight, linkages positions, rotation speed class...to allow generators respecting the template to be used strait as a block, or by its 3 main parts: engine, PMBL motor, controller.

Being at the origin on an iso is great honour that i do not feel out of reach.
as help on ISO is expected by the ICOMA. (http://www.icomia.com/about-icomia/news_article.asp?NW_ID=141)

Funny side effect :
As far as new JOB creation is concerned, rising interoperability, rise statistically your chances to get a client.
No one can loose.

To start we can define the "aimed at" parameter list to get the size of the matrix
Then fil up Matrix with data collected on engines, EM, controller.

The task is decomposed, // instructed in separate thread of this forum, sorted, then selected, you get an ISO MATRIX offering great features.
You find love, get rich, give your name to a street ;-)

[matt H.]

not sure how to answer all that

[mydauphin]

I think salt-water corrosion would eat you whole setup before you get all the kinks out. Even marine designed electrical components fail on a regular basis. Also the Prius uses various high voltage components that would not fair too well in rising bilge water. So even if you got your boat to run it would be as dangerous and reliable as attaching a 220volt extension cord to a sprinkler pump and using that for propulsion. It would be a electrocution, fire hazard and a death trap. Sorry to be so blunt but I don't think I am exaggerating.

[apex1]

may be possible to use a fly wheel to store momentous energy


Ja ja..........

flywheel hmm?

On a boat yes?

And of course cheap too?

And how do you think to change course?

When the flywheel is sufficient to propel your boat, it is more than sufficient to remain stable in its direction.

The gyroscope effect of large centrifugal masses was not taken into account.

Although nearly everything is doable. But when you look at the tiny masses in a gyroscopic compass, and then look at the pricelist of such stuff, you will notice, that a common propulsion and two circumnavigations are cheaper.

not sure how to answer all that

Maybe better you think a while before you try?

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Ja ja..........
...
Maybe better you think a while before you try?

Regards
Richard

And what about you ?

What have you to say about creating jobs by a better normalisation of ISO standards ?

[apex1]

And what about you ?

What have you to say about creating jobs by a better normalisation of ISO standards ?

Nothing, absolutely nothing. (and even that was too much)

Only a 5 years old and Kistinie can ask such idiotic question.

[kistinie]

Nothing, absolutely nothing. (and even that was too much)

Only a 5 years old and Kistinie can ask such idiotic question.

Idiotic ?
...
You meant, absolutely disturbing, i guess :-))

Of course, Yes.
I agree, it is so obvious, one do not need to be more than 5 to understand that interchangeable products allow to have more potential customers, make prices go down so allow you to have more clients.
Of course i understand job creation is not a priority.
Anyway...

Any HYMAR or ICOMIA Members can answer the question ?

[gonzo]

Except for that post having nothing to do with the thread it is also incoherent. The problem with flywheel and electric hybrid systems on boats is that boats have a fairly constant resistance. Unlike cars that go up and down hills and stop at traffic lights, boats get up and go. If you install an engine that is so overpowered as to have a surplus for a flywheel, it will be heavy, use more fuel and slow down the boat.

[matt H.]

on certain types of gyroscopes it doesn't really matter whats going on around the fly wheel unless you want it to

one could steady a boat by mounting the flywheel high
that would open new doors to new hull / hydrodynamics
designs

a system this complex probably wouldn't be used for an dingy

If its sealed right its not going to corrode and really a sore excuse not try something new.
you would be silly to put any boat in salt water if your worried about corrosion

the motor wouldn't surplus the flywheel the flywheel would surplus the motor

the motor in theory , being engineered / built to always run under a specific load /RPM
and never changing , the motor would be engineered to last longer

[apex1]

on certain types of gyroscopes it doesn't really matter whats going on around the fly wheel unless you want it to


Ja, of course!

Do you have a idea how much money 60.000€ is?

Dreams and phantasies..............................

[matt H.]

Ja, of course!

Do you have a idea how much money 60.000€ is?

Dreams and phantasies..............................

if it wasn't for engineering "dreams and fantasies" we would still be hucking sticks at our food

im guessing its more than 40.00 bucks
am I correct ?

[apex1]

You must not engineer anything, gyro´s work since more than hundred years. But without a sophisticated decoupling you will not turn your boat!

And that is expensive!

60.000 € are more than 85.000 "bucks" btw.

[matt H.]

lol:D

[dieseldude]

Toyota based hybrid package? Nanni Diesel builds and sells em:cool:

[mark775]

Wud you direct to the "Toyota based hybrid package" you are referrring to? I Googled Nanni hybrid and got a French guy talking about a hybrid and a drawing of a hybrid but could't discern "licensed by Toyota" or "Synergy Drive" anywhere. What type of hybrid is this thing?

[dieseldude]

It's a hybrid system designed from the ground up for boats. You start out with a Nanni TDI-1.439 (Toyota 1KZ) diesel engine. You put a dual purpose stator & rotor coil set in the flywheel housing along with an in out clutch between it and the engine. Next is some proprietary electronics that control changing the coil set between regeneration mode and propulsion mode. Throw in a big bank of batteries to store the generated power. When your cruising under diesel power the coil set generates electrical power that is stored in the batteries. Or you can turn off the diesel disconnect the in out clutch and use the coil set as an electric motor and cruise on the battery power you saved up. System makes sense in parts of europe where you have to run real clean and quiet in tight areas and can kick in the diesel when you get to open water. I think the system is more like an updated version of a WW2 U-Boat:cool: