hi everyone,i want to try and build a yacht

[sunnysideup]

hello to all,im new to your forum and have basically come on here for guidance and honest opinions and hopefully make some friends.where do i start......since ive been a kid ive been desperate to sail and explore the world.im lucky enough to have a girlfriend now who wants to do the same.my sailing experience is pretty limited to one transatlantic and weekend and day sailing around scotland and england.so last year i began my search for the right boat for our trip-35-40ish ft wooden classic in good condition or in need of some renovation.after months and months of looking i became disillusioned because we couldnt find what we really wanted.i then spent time on researching catamarans but for some reason i cant get the idea of us sailing away in a classic wooden boat.im now at the stage of looking at trying to get some designs and ideas and drawings together and going down the route of trying to find a really good boatyard to actually build one for us!.......(i can hear all my friends already saying -''you must be mad''..''its too hard'' ...negative,negative,,etc etc)so this leads me to why im on here.....why buy a used boat when i could possibly build a new one!?
i have no experience at all of buiding boats and not much technical knowledge either at the moment but i have a good head for design and lines and im willing to learn.my biggest asset would be my enthusiasm of actually trying to put this dream together and creating something amazing and worthwhile in our lives for us to enjoy,explore and live on.ive already got a few ideas but everything is still at the embryonic stage.id like the LOD to be about 42ft,wide beamed-13ft/4m,draft-6ft 10 inch/2.1m?? full length keel for blue water cruising,bermudan rigged,aluminium mast,aft cockpit with wheel for steering,wooden doghouse down to an open galley kitchen,4 berths(one double and two singles and toilet.teak deck.not sure what wood to choose for the hull/super structure?????? ive heard greenheart oak is almost indestructable??bronze silicon screws???.......like i said this is all just starting in my mind so i appreciate it lacks a lot more information but id like to build a strong boat with her own character that will last and carry us safely across oceans.our planned route at the moment will be to sail up to the faroe islands and norway in the summer months then back down to the mediteranean then across the atlantic to the caribbean and through the panama canal down to south america and then from there who knows. : ))))
so i guess the first and most important question at the start has to be;will £200,000 be enough to build a wooden boat of that size? any recommendations for respected boatyards in the south of england?do i start with finding plans and drawings of a boat with the sort of lines i like and work with them or will the boatbuilder be able to do this with me?is it cheaper to get a steel hull built?what timescale am i looking at?..can i actually pull this off or am i being completely naive????hahaha.
so this is the very start of our dream and i hope someone can help.any advice would be greatly welcomed.all the best. dan

[JLIMA]

I actually would recommend your backyard there are plenty of people here that can give you advice if you get stuck on something or what not and if your willing to build a chine hull it should go together fairly easy, and for much less than a hired yard to boot and there are plenty of books available also. Go to your library and check out a few books on the subject. Personaly I've built one of George Buehlers designs it was his "Alaska" and it went together fairly easily.

[Itchy&Scratchy]

Hey Sunny

For my two pence worth.
Take your dosh and a friend or two who know a lot about yachts and go and buy a second hand steel or glass boat. Too attempt to build one if youve not been around that enviroment for long would be throwing good money after bad. Its a buyers market here in the UK, I see hundreds of boats lyiing in yards on a weekly basis, that you could pick up for a song.

I would say if you want to get involved possibly look towards a refurbishment project. that way you can go through the boat meticulously and get to know it inside out, with the knowledge that it is a tried and tested design and build in the first place.;)

Have fun
J

[Itchy&Scratchy]

Or at the very least, if you must build a wooden boat spend some of your dosh on a boatbuilding course at Lyme Regis or Lowestoft or similiar.
J

[gonzo]

Give me a call and we can talk. I can either build you a new boat or refit and existing one if reasonablel.

[szkutnik]

Yes 200,000 is more than enough if you do it smart.
I will help you with pleasure.
Regards
Marek
szkutnik1960@o2.pl

[gonzo]

I tried sending you a private message or an email with my phone number, but you have those options inactive. Send me a message if you want to get together and discuss your project. I am in the South part of London.

[szkutnik]

You can get free boat building course in my workshop,you can build your boat together with professional crew,
There is a small but nice apartment in my worksop where you can stay for free and plane ticket costs only 80 GBP

[TeddyDiver]

:D Sounds quite sensible plan.. just forget the teak deck, it's just for show of and pita after awhile..

[sunnysideup]

hey just got back in,thanks for all your replys.wanted to start off by making myself a little clearer in response to some of the posts-jlima/itchy&scratchy-im not looking to actually build the boat all by myself but im thinking about commissioning a boat with my ideas of design and the help of a reputable boatyard somewhere in england where i can travel to at weekends to help out and be on site for decisions.im not even sure if boatyards work like this-i.e. letting the client help out where ever they can find time?this is all new to me so im just coming at it from an angle that i think would work so apologies if ive mislead anyone.gonzo and szkutnik,thanks for the offers.very kind.will keep it in mind definately.teddy driver-will remember that,cheers.
checked out a 50ft fred shepherd yawl-'Amokura'-on the net which is the shape of hull and rigging that im looking for but i feel 50ft would be way too big for my girlfriend and me to sail around the world-especially if one of us become ill mid voyage.back to fred shepherd though im a complete and utter convert to his sense of design-hulls with beautiful lines but more than enough room to live on.exactly what i want! so in a crazy sort of way id like to take that boat and shrink it down to 40 odd foot and that would be what im looking for.:)) with regards to types of wood to use for the hull/planking and superstructure-any recommendations?? is there a great difference in price between common woods used in wooden hulls/boatbuilding?

[apex1]

Yes 200,000 is more than enough if you do it smart.
I will help you with pleasure.
Regards
Marek
szkutnik1960@o2.pl

Ok Marek, we got it! You would like to sell a boat. Thats ok, but on every second thread now?...:(

[apex1]

with regards to types of wood to use for the hull/planking and superstructure-any recommendations?? is there a great difference in price between common woods used in wooden hulls/boatbuilding?

To start with the last question. No, there is no difference in price. Wood is bought by volume at a price per quality, no matter for which application.

I would recommend a modern wood epoxy building method instead of a "classical" way. You will come out far cheaper and have much less maintenance time and cost. Or a metal boat as second choice.

But as said by my peers, buy a second hand boat! A good steel or good grp boat will go for a fraction of what a newbuild costs at present.

If it MUST be a newbuilt, let me know, although I do motoryachts only, I might be able to assist.

You go for a plan first, not for a yard! Find the design / designer / NA that fits your needs, then look for the yard to build it.
You have already a idea about the designer, can you get plans from him?

Your budget could be sufficient for a boat that size when you build in modern methods. A classical built 44ft is not to have for 200k quid.

Yes steel (or even Alu) can be cheaper than other materials. That all depends on the design, and yard choosen.

Regards
Richard

[szkutnik]

Ok Marek, we got it! You would like to sell a boat. Thats ok, but on every second thread now?...:(

I apologize for boring you but not every second, only two, and only where people ask.

[apex1]

You´re not boring ME Marek..............:p

Well it is uncommon that we builders here promote our products and services too often, or too obvious. Thats all.....................;)

[gonzo]

Sunnysideup: That is what I understood, that you are looking to commission the build of the boat. If you want to get together and shoot the breeze, I always enjoy that. I can maybe help you narrow your choices in designs and materials. If you want an estimate on a new build or a refit, I can do that too. Send me a message and I'll send you my phone number. We are both in London.

[sunnysideup]

apex1,that reads like sound advice,appreciate it.im not opposed to any building methods especially if it saves money and maintenance time.will get reading up on modern wood epoxy building methods.in respect to buying a second hand boat,firstly we have driven hundreds of miles and spent a very long time on the web over months and months of searching for a used boat and we still cant find exactly what we want.call me fussy but if we are gonna spend what is a lot of money to us on a boat to get us around the world i want it to be the right one! yes we could go for a grp boat at a fraction of the price but i cant find the same sort of soul in a grp as i can with wood.im not disrespecting grp boats either.lets face it,if it wasnt for them we wouldnt have so many people in the world enjoying sailing like all of us do on our beautiful oceans and at the end of the day thats what its all about-getting out on the water.
but we have looked high and low and we figure now instead of waiting around for it to appear in front of us we are gonna start working out what it would cost and take to do to get what we want made from scratch.in my view its worth the time spent.also im speculating that if we do go ahead with a new build then if or when there comes a day when we come to sell it ourselves,i'd rather be in a position of selling a decade old wooden blue water boat with its history and character than a grp boat with a lot more miles on the clock and up against the many more thousands of grp boats out there on the market for sale.personally id be quite happy to find some island somewhere in the middle of the ocean with a nice beach and a sweet surf spot and have a family and not come back.hahahahahaha.thats the pipe dream.so will take your advice apex1 regarding plans first then boatyard.was thinking about going for and ali mast instead of wood?any thoughts on that anyone?

[gonzo]

Aluminum masts are fine. They are noisier, but most people are used to it now.

[szkutnik]

If you will find the place for construction, you can build a carbon mast by yourself.
There is nothing complicated . The mast will be stronger and it won't be more expensive.
And what satisfaction.

[apex1]

Hi Sunny,

I think I got you right (and have no prob. to understand some dreaming).
First I must confess, I looked up your favourite designer and learned how old the designs are. So most likely that guy is not longer amongst us.
When you use the search function of the Forum you should find a lot of recommendations on designers / NA´s for "classic" sailing boats. Choose your favourite and come back here to discuss others experiences.
Than you might find it worth to have some further conversation on the yard issue. It is unlikely you find a yard in W. Europe to fulfill your "Book of Requirements" in the given budget. Assuming we are talking about a "ready to circumnavigate" boat. That of course is way above the average serial or custom built.
When it comes to wood epoxy, you can find some yards in South East Asia, but thats quite inconvenient to travel and not easy to supervise or control.
Turkey is the place where I have my yards / shops and where I produce in wood epoxy mainly. Though (as mentioned) I do not build sailing boats, I know of course who might be the right building partner for you. Do´nt hesitate to ask me.
When in doubt about the quality, have a look at my Gallery and take a deep breath. Then know that Turkey is (by numbers) the largest boatbuilding nation in the world! And by quality, between not the worst and high class. Maltese Falcon was completely built in Istanbul. (in my backyard in fact)
When a metal boat is the choice, other factors come into the play and several other countries have some advantage too.

If you can stomach a Alu "Palm" on a wooden boat, that is the cheapest choice sure. But from a technical point of view, a "built" wooden one can be a good choice too (maybe fibre reinforced). As everything in our world, it depends. If its a boat, its a compromise! If it´s no compromise it will not sail.

Make Toot when you need more.

Regards
Richard

[sunnysideup]

richard,you weren't messing around when you told me you build boats.checked out your gallery and was very impressed!especially with the finish on the interiors.lovely.
been reading up a little on wood epoxy hulls and it definately sounds like the way forward.the west system seems good.what do you think about using cold molding for the hull?
from where im sitting it seems to be all positives and no negatives for creating the hull in this type of construction.whats the pay-off?? ...is this type of laminated construction similar to a composite hull or is this actually what a composite hull is? and what would be the time scale on building a 45ft hull this way? off now to pour through boat designs.oh yeah-whats an alu 'palm'? guessing its a type of aluminium mast?? was contemplating a carbon fibre mast like szkutnik suggested.thanks again for everyones replies.cool forum.

[apex1]

Nice to hear you enjoyed it.

Yes wood epoxy is referred to as a composite method, but here we use the term composite mainly meaning fibre / resin layups of the different sorts.

What you have seen in my Gallery IS cold moulding in most cases. Some of the smaller boats are traditionally built and glassfibre sheathed in and outside.
For your boat I would recommend a combination of strip planking and cold moulding, as we do it on the larger models from about 70 to 105 ft.
The strip planking methods (there are several varieties) are much faster than the plain cold M. method. And a strip planked hull in itself is already a strong an rigid monocoque. Many designers provide well proven plans for strip planking.

The drawback of a wood epoxy hull is that it is almost as vulnerable as a GRP hull when it comes to a contact with a reef, container and the like. A metal boat is more forgiving when you hammer on a reef for half a day.
Although that is not "the art of sailing" it happens, no doubt.
The next point to take into account is the quality of the build. As with a GRP layup the yard can do a shabby job which is impossible to control when finished. Though you will have less structural issues with a weak wood epoxy built than with a screwed glass layup or (worse) a imperfect done foam core. The former will just soak water, which is obvious and can be corrected if you´re happy.
The latter cases become obvious when your bum gets wet in a force ten night half way between Galapagos and Ushuaia.
But a metal boat can fall apart too, when the design was faulty and / or the yard was. Though, as mentioned above, metal is a bit more forgiving.

The maintenance effort of a good wood epoxy boat is equal or below that of a GRP boat. (this statement will sure be contradicted within the next ten minutes. As sure, I will not react on it, I know how my boats perform, and they do much better than the premium brand GRP boats)
But of course a modern steel boat does´nt have too serious maintenace issues either, a Alu built even less.

But you asked for wood, so lets focus on wood.
A strip planked hull of 45ft will need about the same time as a steel hull, when done by skilled shipwrights doing that daily. A yard not so firm with that method will need quite a bit longer than a steel hull would require. My favourite strip / veneer / glass method needs about twice the time of a steel hull. But that hull is substantially stronger and lighter than the steel one.

The "Palm" or Palm tree is the mast yes.
I do´nt know about szkutniks abilities, and do´nt want to guess. In the western countries a carbon mast will cost you several times the amount of a alu mast. Assuming a quality worth to entrust your life in. A segment build wooden mast will be about 50% above the alu one. That depends much on the skills of the yard, some ca´nt do it even for three times the money.

If you like, come here to Istanbul for three days or so, I´ll show you more than 100 yards and boatshops of each and every kind and quality, within a walk of ten minutes. And apart from your plans and dreams, just to see that, is worth a journey when one is interested in boatbuilding. And it is quite possible you´ll find the right place, the right people to build yours.

Be assured, I have no personal or financial interest, or ask here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/can-lapstrake-planked-boats-stay-shore-winter-storage-more-29767-2.html#post308823

edited:
let me add some links to designers and designs worth to look at:

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/sophiachristina.htm
Ted Brewer, well known, proven designs alltime classics.
http://www.skirayachtdesign.com/
Daniel Skira, supportive man, quite unique boats, all hand drawn, designed for strip planking.
http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/saildesign.html
Ed Burnett, in GB a sort of icon, not cheap.
http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/stock.htm
Van de Stadt, probably the most detailed plans and easiest to build yachts, for your builder.

This list of course, is just a fraction of what is at the market. But bear in mind that a completely custom designed boat will cost you a min. of 30.000€ to 40.000€ upfront, for the plans only!
The designers above will charge you less than 10% of that for their stock plans. There still are ways to "customize" these plans without sacrificing the advantages of the given design. And within a reasonable range of cost.

Would be nice btw. to have your mail adress.

best regards
Richard

[szkutnik]

To be more precised: building carbon mast, you will spend for materials as much as for ready alu mast.
If self building can be a fan and satisfactio for you than go on and don't count your time.
Self made carbon mast will be strong but carbon fiber wil not go as perfect as the factory made. You will need paint the mast and nobody will see the carbon. Selden carbon mast are varnish ,and they look like they are HI-TECH.
On oldtimer ,white painted carbon mast will look better than alu.

Richard, this time i agree with you in100 %

[apex1]

And have a look here too:

http://www.spauldingcenter.org/boatfinder/2008/10/19/60-foot-1992-shpountz-schooner-for-sale/

http://www.boatmatch.com/boat-for-sale.php?boat=1319

The first one is on the market for a long time now and I´m quite sure he will sell for almost any amount.
The second one is quite a bit smaller, but may fit you though.

http://www.classic-yacht-design.com/1intro/intro.html
Their homepage.

New built, the smaller one would come out at around 800.000€ the larger substantially above 1,2 million

[dskira]

hello to all,im new to your forum and have basically come on here for guidance and honest opinions and hopefully make some friends.where do i start......since ive been a kid ive been desperate to sail and explore the world.im lucky enough to have a girlfriend now who wants to do the same.my sailing experience is pretty limited to one transatlantic and weekend and day sailing around scotland and england.so last year i began my search for the right boat for our trip-35-40ish ft wooden classic in good condition or in need of some renovation.after months and months of looking i became disillusioned because we couldnt find what we really wanted.i then spent time on researching catamarans but for some reason i cant get the idea of us sailing away in a classic wooden boat.im now at the stage of looking at trying to get some designs and ideas and drawings together and going down the route of trying to find a really good boatyard to actually build one for us!.......(i can hear all my friends already saying -''you must be mad''..''its too hard'' ...negative,negative,,etc etc)so this leads me to why im on here.....why buy a used boat when i could possibly build a new one!?
i have no experience at all of buiding boats and not much technical knowledge either at the moment but i have a good head for design and lines and im willing to learn.my biggest asset would be my enthusiasm of actually trying to put this dream together and creating something amazing and worthwhile in our lives for us to enjoy,explore and live on.ive already got a few ideas but everything is still at the embryonic stage.id like the LOD to be about 42ft,wide beamed-13ft/4m,draft-6ft 10 inch/2.1m?? full length keel for blue water cruising,bermudan rigged,aluminium mast,aft cockpit with wheel for steering,wooden doghouse down to an open galley kitchen,4 berths(one double and two singles and toilet.teak deck.not sure what wood to choose for the hull/super structure?????? ive heard greenheart oak is almost indestructable??bronze silicon screws???.......like i said this is all just starting in my mind so i appreciate it lacks a lot more information but id like to build a strong boat with her own character that will last and carry us safely across oceans.our planned route at the moment will be to sail up to the faroe islands and norway in the summer months then back down to the mediteranean then across the atlantic to the caribbean and through the panama canal down to south america and then from there who knows. : ))))
so i guess the first and most important question at the start has to be;will £200,000 be enough to build a wooden boat of that size? any recommendations for respected boatyards in the south of england?do i start with finding plans and drawings of a boat with the sort of lines i like and work with them or will the boatbuilder be able to do this with me?is it cheaper to get a steel hull built?what timescale am i looking at?..can i actually pull this off or am i being completely naive????hahaha.
so this is the very start of our dream and i hope someone can help.any advice would be greatly welcomed.all the best. dan

It is quite a nice size yacht you want, and you are ready to give money and time to have your dream come true.
Just an opinion: the mast, definitively of wood.
Now for a practicality and for you to be on a safe side, and have your boat on budget and on time, I will rely on a very professional project manager.
Without discussing anything with him and on my own I will suggest you get seriously in touch with Apex1 Richard. If somebody can realy help you from start to finish it's him. I tell you why: He will represent your interest with profesionalism knowing the finance and the boatbuilding from a long time and having long line of boat built under his watch and organisation.
The naval architect is only part of the process, the yard also, but the whole organisation, the back office sytem, the management of the money, the buying procedure, the respect of the contract and all that can be quite overwhelming and can end up with bad surprise. I saw to often boat doubling the price at launching time. You need some one on your side only, and also a manager of experience can take care of the conflicts.

And the launching is a great party without surprise.
Happy sailing
Cheers
Daniel

[M-Sasha]

It is quite a nice size yacht you want, and you are ready to give money and time to have your dream come true.
Just an opinion: the mast, definitively of wood.
Now for a practicality and for you to be on a safe side, and have your boat on budget and on time, I will rely on a very professional project manager.
Without discussing anything with him and on my own I will suggest you get seriously in touch with Apex1 Richard. If somebody can realy help you from start to finish it's him. I tell you why: He will represent your interest with profesionalism knowing the finance and the boatbuilding from a long time and having long line of boat built under his watch and organisation.
The naval architect is only part of the process, the yard also, but the whole organisation, the back office sytem, the management of the money, the buying procedure, the respect of the contract and all that can be quite overwhelming and can end up with bad surprise. I saw to often boat doubling the price at launching time. You need some one on your side only, and also a manager of experience can take care of the conflicts.

And the launching is a great party without surprise.
Happy sailing
Cheers
Daniel

A very important point you have there Daniel!
A independant project management is as important than a good design or yard! And if there is one honest, independent, and professionel for this project, that is Richard for sure.
Did you notice he made a survey for free for a young Turk?http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/can-lapstrake-planked-boats-stay-shore-winter-storage-more-29767-2.html#post308823
If he is interested in a project, or thrilled, sunnysideup can smile and maybe get a boat done for 70% of the value.

sunnysideup, I will not recommend a boatyard in Europe. When you calculate the wages in Great Britain with only €25 per hour, that is low, and in Turky with 8,50, that is normal, you have then a difference of nearly €100.000, when the manhours are 6000 for such boat.
And they can make perfect boats in Turky. Jo, some rubbish also, but not when the Patron manages it.:!:

Greetings from Sevastopol
Sasha

[apex1]

Well,
I´m happy to notice, that someone thinks I am not a completely useless bum.

But both of you, the Sibiriak, and the Northern light, are not much too mousy to give my time away for free, are you?:cool:

We cannot even call this a real project, but you have already the right project manager?

First let us know which way to go, then we will see. And (no offense given sunny), let me know if I like the project AND the people first.

Boatbuilding on a professional level has no "sunny side up", as both of you know. Only compromises. And a good compromise is the one hurting all parties! ALL...

So, one should feel confident to stand unenjoyable facts (compromises) when served in a frank manner. Without a personal contact that is´nt to achieve.

Though it was quite flattering waving my flag, this time I´ll give you just a
"5, sit down".......:D

Regards
Richard

[Gilbert]

Sunnysideup,
How nice that your thread here has really taken off and you've received a lot of great advice.
I would like to suggest that you consider a smaller boat, somewhere in the 30 foot range, maybe a little more. A boat of this size can be an excellent choice for voyages anywhere. As a boatbuilder I can tell you that a 30 footer can be built in about a year by one man. A 42 footer might take 3 or 4 years. A 30 footer might only take a quart of antifouling at haulout time; a 42 footer about a gallon. Also, when the boat is ready to launch you will likely have a considerable amount of your cash left so you can go voyaging.
As has been said before, there are so many boats available at bargain prices nowadays that you can surely buy one and be out voyaging for an even longer time on your budget.
I will mention that I have become a big fan of CURLEW a Falmouth Quay Punt which is only 28 feet on deck. Google it, I think you will get a hit.

[dskira]

Sunnysideup,
How nice that your thread here has really taken off and you've received a lot of great advice.
I would like to suggest that you consider a smaller boat, somewhere in the 30 foot range, maybe a little more. A boat of this size can be an excellent choice for voyages anywhere. As a boatbuilder I can tell you that a 30 footer can be built in about a year by one man. A 42 footer might take 3 or 4 years. A 30 footer might only take a quart of antifouling at haulout time; a 42 footer about a gallon. Also, when the boat is ready to launch you will likely have a considerable amount of your cash left so you can go voyaging.
As has been said before, there are so many boats available at bargain prices nowadays that you can surely buy one and be out voyaging for an even longer time on your budget.
I will mention that I have become a big fan of CURLEW a Falmouth Quay Punt which is only 28 feet on deck. Google it, I think you will get a hit.

This is what Sunyside proposed:

"42ft,wide beamed-13ft/4m,draft-6ft 10 inch/2.1m?? full length keel for blue water cruising,bermudan rigged,aluminium mast,aft cockpit with wheel for steering,wooden doghouse down to an open galley kitchen,4 berths(one double and two singles and toilet."

You propose half the size (in volume) which will be impossible to incorporate his specs. Now you are right for the Curley, its a good boat, but I prefer to ride a bad storm on a 40' than a 28'. Commun sense, if I had the choice, I will go for the larger boat. (relatively more comfortable motion) and to not forget the privecy you can't have on a Curley, but you can have in a 40'
As for the building time, this is difficult to assesse. You said 3 or 4 years for a 40'? and a 30' one year one man?. The discrepency do not adds up, sorry.
As for the antifouling paint, it is I must say a very bizarre way to discuss different class of boat. What about the top coat (ok just kidding)
As for the budget, I will let the owner decide.
But as always a good discussion is welcome, and even if I disagree with you, thanks.
Cheers
Daniel

[hoytedow]

The reason classical methods have given way to modern methods is that people found cheaper, better and stronger ways to do things. You can build classical looking vessels using modern methods and materials, having a safer and stronger product for less dinero.

[M-Sasha]

Hey Gilbert what about reading a thred before making funny comments?

As a boatbuilder I can tell YOU, that was nonsense what you say there. One man can never build a 30 foot boat himself in one year. Not such a ocean going boat, not a amateur. And sure not you either.
A Falmouth Quay Punt is your recommended boat? Good expert I must say...

Better leave it to the professionals like Daniel and Richard to tell this member.

Sasha

[Gilbert]

Well M-Sasha, I see you are sticking to what you know best-personal attacks.
I don't make posts unless I know at least something about the subject. I will stand up for everything I said in my previous post here.
As to the time for building I was talking about traditional plank on frame construction and an "average" sort of cruising sailboat for each boat, 30 footer and a 42 footer. We all know there are 30 foot boats that could be built incredibly fast as well as examples that could take an incredibly long time, especially if one becomes obsessive about every little detail being perfect. The same can be said of any size boat you want to talk about.
For example I built a twenty foot sailboat that took over a year to build and I didn't even make the sails for it. But it was double planked and we coated everything with epoxy. This was a complete deviation from a traditional plank on frame boat.
If you care to disagree with my time for construction estimates which I assumed everyone with an ounce of brains would realize are very "round" numbers, then go ahead and post some factual basis that is better than my experience.
And hoytedow, I surely believe you are mistaken about the modern materials and construction being cheaper. I won't disagree with them being better in most respects and usually longer lived. In production shops I have seen corners cut because doing everything the proper way would increase man hours too much. But if you cut corners it is just as bad no matter what method you are using.

[gonzo]

The time of construction depends largely on the desing, the method and more than anything the interior. I can build a 30' sharpie with a basic interior in less than three weeks by myself. A dingy in an afternoon.

[dskira]

Well M-Sasha, I see you are sticking to what you know best-personal attacks.
I don't make posts unless I know at least something about the subject. I will stand up for everything I said in my previous post here.
As to the time for building I was talking about traditional plank on frame construction and an "average" sort of cruising sailboat for each boat, 30 footer and a 42 footer. We all know there are 30 foot boats that could be built incredibly fast as well as examples that could take an incredibly long time, especially if one becomes obsessive about every little detail being perfect. The same can be said of any size boat you want to talk about.
For example I built a twenty foot sailboat that took over a year to build and I didn't even make the sails for it. But it was double planked and we coated everything with epoxy. This was a complete deviation from a traditional plank on frame boat.
If you care to disagree with my time for construction estimates which I assumed everyone with an ounce of brains would realize are very "round" numbers, then go ahead and post some factual basis that is better than my experience.
And hoytedow, I surely believe you are mistaken about the modern materials and construction being cheaper. I won't disagree with them being better in most respects and usually longer lived. In production shops I have seen corners cut because doing everything the proper way would increase man hours too much. But if you cut corners it is just as bad no matter what method you are using.


Gilbert, this was the point of Sasha, which is a very talented boatbuilder by the way.

One man can never build a 30 foot boat himself in one year

And I have to say he is right. Now you adding some explainations and it is interresting that you name the plank on frame traditional method. Quite fast I agree but one man one year, no this is not possible, on the type of boat we are talking. For the mnoment I am sorry to say you are baking of with some fussy explainations.
Please show the cruising boat of 30' you built in one year.
As always boat are full of heated conversation, thanks God! We are not the first one and not the last :p
Thanks
Cheers
Daniel

[Gilbert]

I have never built a sailboat that was exactly 30 feet long. I have never built one that was exactly 42 feet long either. I have built enough boats to know that I could have easily built a 30 foot traditional plank on frame boat of the same type as the 20 footer I mentioned above in less time than it took to build the 20 footer. I had to plank the 20 footer twice plus gluing the second layer. Then there were countless hours coating and recoating everything with epoxy.
To say that one man could not build a 30 foot sailboat in one year is just ridiculous.
Just for a famous example Joshua Slocum built his Spray in just 13 months. It was a complete rebuild, literally replacing every piece of it and incorprotating modifications to increase the freeboard. It was a 36 footer and I am unaware of him having the use of any power tools. Slocum was an experienced boatbuilder by the way, which is not as widely known as his famous sailing exploits and book.
I am certainly not the worlds fastest boatbuilder. I am astonished to find there are two experts who are slower than myself.
The main reason for me posting on this thread is that I wanted to counter the notion that a young couple wanting to build a boat and go sailing should spend all their money on the biggest boat they have money for and then not have any funds to actually go voyaging. There are countless examples of folks who have overextended themselves in this way. You know the bigger the boat the more is stays at the dock syndrome. I say this realizing that most of the posts here have been along the line of offering ways to save them money, which is fine. The most obvious way to save money is to not build more boat than you need.

[gonzo]

Slocum came to my mind too. He worked outside in a cow pasture.

[M-Sasha]

If we are talking Joshua Slocum and Spray, then dear Gilbert you are wrong again!
Slocum was a Sailor not a boatbuilder!
He did NOT BUILD the boat! He rebuild it (we have not been there to know what), what that ever was, it was not a new build.

No matter if you like it or not, make statements until we all are tired....
but a AMATEUR CAN NOT BUILD A 30 foot boat, ready for a circumnavigation, to the requirements of sunnyside, in one year. Peng , Period , Basta and Amen

This thread was not about open dinghies or steel pontoons, sunny has made clear what he wants. Now you bring examples of much less demanding work. Thats is a lame argument.

But lets stay calm and polite.
A boat that could fit his demands would be around 6000 hours-man minimum to make, right? (for a boatbuilder)
Do you have a calculator?
Then you have the same result that others have. Even two years means more then 8 hours a day, 365 days a jear.

No Gilbert, say sorry I was wrong, and do not defend such nonsense!

Sasha

[apex1]

6.000 hrs for a 30´ of such complexity sounds about right. A 42 would need about 10.000 to 12.000 manhrs. (we are talking about a liveaboard passagemaker done in wood epoxy, long keel, full body)
A little boatshop does the smaller in one year with 4 skilled people. But what am I talking, my ex production manager has the numbers in half the time I need. Thanks Sasha.


Two other boats I would like to bring to sunnysides attention.
Both "Motorsailers" imho the right choice for long passages, and a permanent liveaboard. Drawings by Paul Gartside, and copyright there!

Regards
Richard

[Gilbert]

M-Sasha,
My misinformed friend, Slocum indeed had quite a lot of experience building boats and you are the one who is wrong. You need to do a little studying on the subject of Joshua Slocum, his life, and the Spray.
And, although you do not come out and say it, you seem to be assuming I am an amatuer boatbuilder. I am not an amatuer. My father was a boat builder and so am I. I am not talking about skiffs or pontoons, either.
And furthermore you are the one who was not polite not me.
You are the one who should say sorry. And I have not been being rude, I have been correcting you.

[apex1]

Lets focus on topic guys, not worth fighting.

Meanwhile the thread opener seems to http://www.brieffreunde.de/images/users/77146_1248998150_schlafender-hund.jpg




Regards
Richard

[sunnysideup]

like the pic richard,hehehehe,hope the little ones dreaming of bones.apologies for no show lately,ive been away.firstly surprised at how my threads taken off.seems a few people are more interested in fighting each other but guess thats down to egos eh.gilbert,i do know the curlew.my best mates a marine biologist and spent 2 years down in antartica and south georgia and got to meet tim and pauline carr on curlew.said they are fantastic people too.funny enough the same friend thinks that i should shorten my boat down to 30 ft too,but personally its not for me.yes of coarse there is a lot of sense to your opinion in terms of money to build/buy,cost of maintenance,mooring fees where we have to,etc etc but would you really want to live on a 30ft for a couple of years.people can and do and fair play to them but i need to enjoy our adventure.as for having enough money to travel with if/after we build her then surely you dont think im naive enough to have not planned that out?if you'd have read my first thread you would have realised that this is not some spur of the moment idea for me in terms of the actual trip,but i do understand what your saying and point noted.thankyou.
the man hours issue is definately a serious point with regards to money.i can see now that having it built in the south of england is gonna be a considerable higher cost to say somewhere like turkey if we are looking at 10,000 mh for this size boat.just reading some of your threads and doing some maths has got me thinking back to finding something already built and getting a resto done on her???all food for thought.my only issue richard with getting it built in turkey is just the distance to travel to check on her and how shes progressing although i do a few air miles a year and realise that flying is pretty cheap and easy now a days.will post back soon with some more definate questions-all a bit vague from me at the moment.
regards
dan

[apex1]

Welcome back Dan,

there was a point in Gilberts post worth a note. The more experienced sailors on the barefoot routes around the world, have the smaller boats than the novices. But when you look at the average size, they are still above 40 ft. You are right with the size choosen.

The objections about building abroad are valid and easy to understand.
But have a look at dskiras comment about project management! Daniel is a seasoned designer and knows what he is talking.
Even if you would have a yard next door, would you be experienced enough to manage such project? (apart from cost issues) It is not only going there and have a look!
Do´nt get me wrong, I am not applying for additional workload, done for free, but in Turkey I COULD do that for you. And I am not going to "sell" you a boat, I do´nt make a sailing boat for you.

A second hand boat can be the right alternative (for that reason I posted some links), but a "restoration" is not what you are looking for. If we are talking the same language here, a resto will cost you more time and more money than a perfect used boat or even (sometimes) a new one!!!
Though I never restored a sailing vessel, I did about twelve steamships and motorvessels, and I remember the "tears" when replacing a "simple plate for 100 DM" ended at 55.000.-DM and still was just a partially solution. That happened EVERY time! We never ripped out and replaced one single piece only. Always there was more behind the visible issue.
Take care, do´nt get infected by the beauty of a old lady with gracious lines!!!

You said it, flying is cheap, especially now in winter. Come here for some days, I´ll show you around, let you get a impression how and why, in every material, method and technique. (except Ferrocement) And we can discuss the pro´s and con´s personally, even for a second hand boat.
You will not go back dumber, and have the touristic attractions uncrowded now.
Click my name to contact me directly.

Regards
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

"...Boatbuilding on a professional level has no "sunny side up", as both of you know. Only compromises. And a good compromise is the one hurting all parties! ALL..."

Both Dskira and Apex have it spot on. Your dream can end in disaster, unless you have a very knowledgeable project manager working for YOU.