can lapstrake planked boats stay on shore for winter storage or more?

[urisvan]

hello,
i intend to buy a second hand boat. i found a lapstrake planked folk boat.
and i have a land near the sea that i can store it for long periods when i will not use it.
i think it is not suitable for carvel planked hulls, because the boat shrinks if it stays too long on shore. and if you put it on the water without caulking it will sink.
is it the same for lapstrake planked hulls?

cheers

[apex1]

Yes in principle!

[alan white]

There are several things you must do to prevent the wood from excessive drying. You should place the boat over dirt, the kind that doesn't pass water so easily. Something that grows grass well. A constant dampness is good for the hull.
You should completely cover the boat. The sun can do a lot of damage, and wind can also excessively dry a wooden hull. If you cover it so that the cover encloses the area below the boat, all the better. Allow for a small amount of air flow, but not too much.
You should also make sure the hull is well painted. Paint slows the process of moisture give and take. Bare wood shouldn't wait til spring.
Finally, the bilge should be clean. When there's a storm, the winter cover can be blown off and no one but you will care if it does. It's up to you to go and inspect it. Rain water should not be allowed to enter the bilge, so cockpit drains should be checked for debris that would allow the cockpit to fill and flow into the cabin in case the cover gets damaged or blown off.
Clean the bilge while the hull seams are tight, right before hauling if possible, not months later after the seams have opened some and the bilge debris has entered the seams from the inside. This will prevent problems down the line.
Wood likes slow changes. Everything you do should work towards a slow exchange of moisture content. Good wood can deal with this slow change and usually, if the change isn't too extreme, such as years in a very dry climate, the wood will return to its original shape and condition. Narrow strakes do better than wide ones since the expansion/contraction limit is less. Garboards are widest so they need the most protection--- paint, sun/wind protection, and bilge inspection.
Spend well on the cover. Plastic tarps are fine for fiberglass boats, but get a good acrylic tarp if you can, one that can stand some bad weather without tearing. Canvas is good too, but must be allowed to dry out on its own, which may be a problem if in contact with the ground.

[urisvan]

You should place the boat over dirt, the kind that doesn't pass water so easily. Something that grows grass well. A constant dampness is good for the hull.

If you cover it so that the cover encloses the area below the boat, all the better. Allow for a small amount of air flow, but not too much.


thanks
how should i cover it? complety cover like a package, round the bottom, or the cover will be like a skirt
should its keel touch the dirt, or damped ground?
cheers

[daiquiri]

Hello, may I hack this thread to ask Alain (and others with hands-on experience) what is their opinion on epoxy-coated wooden boats' behaviour under the same conditions? Did you ever notice a formation of surface cracks or other indicators of wood shrinkage on hulls left unattended outside?
I'm asking this because I've read and heard some claims about glassed boats' weather-resistance which sounded to me like quite over the top.

[alan white]

thanks
how should i cover it? complety cover like a package, round the bottom, or the cover will be like a skirt
should its keel touch the dirt, or damped ground?
cheers

You won't take advantage of the dirt unless you take the cover right down to the ground. Allow for some air gaps here and there, and an exit vent higher up as well.

[alan white]

Hello, may I hack this thread to ask Alain (and others with hands-on experience) what is their opinion on epoxy-coated wooden boats' behaviour under the same conditions? Did you ever notice a formation of surface cracks or other indicators of wood shrinkage on hulls left unattended outside?
I'm asking this because I've read and heard some claims about glassed boats' weather-resistance which sounded to me like quite over the top.

So much depends on glass thickness and type of wood. There's no doubt that wood can continue to "work" despite an epoxy or epoxy/glass sheathing.
This is why it's not a good idea to epoxy-coat large chunks of solid wood, since you couldn't afford the incredible glass thickness required to keep it from distorting.
Plywood should, if properly epoxy coated, weather like a fiberglass boat does. Fir plywood ought to be glassed as well due to it's hard/soft grain variation because the soft grain has many times the expansion potential of the hard grain, and there's no preventing it except to protect it behind a good 9 oz or so layer of glass.
The problems are moisture exchange and heat/cold cycles, but with epoxy (completely sealing the wood both outside and within and every edge), it's temperature variation that's left to effect wood.
For this reason, a tarp should be used to keep the boat protected from the direct rays of the sun. This does a lot of good where paints concerned too.
Temperature variation can cause the wood joints to "telegraph" through the glass to the surface, but it's not a structural issue, just an aesthetic one. It's not too common either, mostly due to light glass being used, and most common when the wood isn't sealed with epoxy inside.
The most important consideration of all is moisture exchange. I can't over-stress the need to seal the wood as near completely as possible if using epoxy.
Light colors also help. Black absorbs far more heat than white, flat finishes more than glossy. You spend a lot on epoxy and glass and labor. Back-coat a plywood deck with epoxy before installing, edges too. Laminate together small pieces instead of big ones in a keel, for example, if sealing with epoxy.

[daiquiri]

Great info, thank you very much!

[apex1]

Hello, may I hack this thread to ask Alain (and others with hands-on experience) what is their opinion on epoxy-coated wooden boats' behaviour under the same conditions? Did you ever notice a formation of surface cracks or other indicators of wood shrinkage on hulls left unattended outside?
I'm asking this because I've read and heard some claims about glassed boats' weather-resistance which sounded to me like quite over the top.

Due to financial difficulties of a client, we left a 68´boat (well supported) on the hard for over 4 years in Turkey. It was only covered by a corrugated sheet roof (that made the ambient temperatures even worse). Apart from 1 vac. cleaning of the cockpit area every spring and autumn we did not touch anything (not even opened the wheelhouse). The engine was still in "ex factory" condition and no batteries installed. The vents and engine air intakes were lightly stuffed with polyester cotton to prevent insects from entering, that was all preparation made.
After some 50 month the accommodation was pretty dusty but nothing else has shown any sign of wear and tear. The exterior was just rinsed, waxed and buffed and off she went.
But of course that was a new boat and a wood epoxy laminated, not just a older vessel covered with goo and glass.

Urisvan
where around in Istanbul are you? Maybe I can assist you.

Regards
Richard

[urisvan]

yes. apex1, i am in istanbul.
i would be very glad.
looking forward to hear from you.

ulas risvanoglu

[urisvan]

This is why it's not a good idea to epoxy-coat large chunks of solid wood, since you couldn't afford the incredible glass thickness required to keep it from distorting.

i was thinking that the thickness of the epoxy-glass laminate over the wood is not very important to correspond the strain of the wood shrinkage, because before that delamination occours between wood and epoxy-glass.
maybe epoxy should be use as a water/damp barrier. and a thick epoxy-glass laminate can be a better barrier. these were what i believe and they can be wrong. i will be glad if you enlighten me.

I can't over-stress the need to seal the wood as near completely as possible if using epoxy.

and what do mean by that sentence.

regards

ulas

[apex1]

yes. apex1, i am in istanbul.
i would be very glad.
looking forward to hear from you.

ulas risvanoglu

where around in Istanbul are you?

was my question............
Istanbul is big.

I´ll give you my phone # through PM.

Richard

[alan white]

i was thinking that the thickness of the epoxy-glass laminate over the wood is not very important to correspond the strain of the wood shrinkage, because before that delamination occours between wood and epoxy-glass.
maybe epoxy should be use as a water/damp barrier. and a thick epoxy-glass laminate can be a better barrier. these were what i believe and they can be wrong. i will be glad if you enlighten me.



and what do mean by that sentence.

regards

ulas

I don't understand your questions. I'm sorry.----- Alan

[alan white]

i was thinking that the thickness of the epoxy-glass laminate over the wood is not very important to correspond the strain of the wood shrinkage, because before that delamination occours between wood and epoxy-glass.
maybe epoxy should be use as a water/damp barrier. and a thick epoxy-glass laminate can be a better barrier. these were what i believe and they can be wrong. i will be glad if you enlighten me.



and what do mean by that sentence.

regards

ulas

I meant you do not get the greatest value of epoxy until you use its ability to slow down moisture changes. Epoxy is used to prevent immediate wetting and drying of the wood on the outside, but it also slows the exchange of ambient moisture, only possible if the entire piece is sealed in epoxy.
It makes no sense to seal only the outside surface because wood can expand quite a bit (and also shrink quite a bit) by taking on or giving off moisture through inside surfaces too rapidly.
The bond to epoxy can shear off against the outside surface if the piece has enough design flaws such as being too dimensionally large, of certain reactive species, of hardwood, and if not sealed on every surface.
it follows then that one should tend to epoxy thinner and smaller pieces, of quarter-sawn wood, preferably softwood, and seal all surfaces.

[urisvan]

thanks a lot.

and last question: which one is better; leave the boat on the water all the time or store it ashore in winter with a proper cover on it?

regards

[apex1]

In or near Istanbul it sits better in the water, than on the hard. But good ventilation of the boat is necessary.
But that (as all others here) is just a general statement, there a too many unknown factors to decide that from a distance (through the net). And of course not every bay is the right anchorage! Remember the sunken Karaköy terminal, and the two stranded Coasters in Harem last winter.
In which area are you?


Richard

[urisvan]

i plan to store it near ayvalik(aegean sea), not in istanbul.

[apex1]

i plan to store it near ayvalik(aegean sea), not in istanbul.

Hmm, Aegean is another cup of tea, you´ll have much more marine growth and more saltspray there. Both can cause problems when the boat is unattended over very long times.

Let´s see what´s possible when we meet tomorrow.

Regards
Richard

[urisvan]

thanks a lot to apex for sparing his time for me.
and met me to survey the boat.
i want to share the conclutions that i made from this survey:

first of all, the deck had sucked plenty of water and has to be changed, this is a big trouble.

the hull is not covered and sealed with epoxy so its moisture content is not low. if the hull stay onshore for long periods and dry compeletly it will absulately detoriete as result of shrinkage.

to fix these problems; 1) the deck should be replaced compeletely:D
2) dry the hull a little bit gradually(not too much, because in that case it will crack because of contradiction) and than seal the hull compeletly with epoxy

did i get you right apex?

see you

[apex1]

to fix these problems; 1) the deck should be replaced compeletely:D
2) dry the hull a little bit gradually(not too much, because in that case it will crack because of contradiction) and than seal the hull compeletly with epoxy

did i get you right apex?

see you

Not completely Uris, I recommended NOT to apply Epoxy to such a hull!

To sum it up:

I found a Turkish built klinker boat of about 7,3 meter length, in a shabby and long time neglected condition. The Teak planked deck was completely shot. About 50 to 100 visible cracks, several swollen planks and loose sealing compound everywhere. I could feel the deck under my feet getting compressed against the frames, in several spots. A sponge. The house was worn and cracked, the deck / house sealing insufficient and crappy "repaired" (just some goo was smeered on). The deck / gunwale transition showed moisture and staines from rot. The Palm (a segment built mast) was once varnished wit ONE single layer of varnish that on the weather side completely peeled off. Though the asparagus itself seemed to be sound.
After opening the foredeck hatch the well known aroma of rot was coming out and the upholstery underneath was wet. I went in and went out, it was´nt worth more. Rust on almost every metal surface, moisture, cracks, mold and mildew.

That was a very short inspection due to the fact that the proud owner of that "yacht" asks for 12.000€ !!! ( that is eighteenthousand american dolores mates)
If she was for free I would have given her another two or three hours of survey, but I doubt that I would have recommended to take her.

The intended purchase will not happen I hope. In fact Uris has no place where to leave a boat in Istanbul, but thought instead he could put her on the hard in southern Turkey. Whithout a major restauration (which would be well above his skills), this boat will fall in parts within one year, when stored ashore.

My advice was (and is), to search for a much better boat at a much lower price in Europe and sail her down to Istanbul, where I can assist Uris to have a free anchorage. There he can regularely use and / or inspect the boat, sail her on the Black sea and Marmara sea. In te summer he can take her in a two or three days trip down south where he enjoys windsurfing too.

So, then, if any of you knows of a boat around the Folkeboot size (but probably with a bit more accommodation), let Uris know! Med would be the preferred location, of course.

Regards
Richard

[alan white]

To that earlier question about hauling vs not hauling...

Only larger boats and medium sized boats being lived aboard (or within a short walk) ought to stay in the water year-round, since there are too many ways for things to go wrong---- other boats gone adrift colliding, slow leaks sinking the boat, aerators that suddenly fail with nobody knowing for days, storms ripping off covers, and on and on.
While it is true that a boat kept year-round in water (especially salt water) in cooler climates usually has a longer planking lifetime, the chance of other problems occurring usually outweigh the benefits of stable planking.

[apex1]

Alan,
we were talkng the south of Turkey here....................Ice?

[alan white]

Oh. You mean I was projecting? Still, don't some icebergs make their way down there?

[apex1]

Oh. You mean I was projecting? Still, don't some icebergs make their way down there?

Alan Alan, that seems to be a hopeless case..................
The British Admirality and Spanish Navy do´nt allow icebergs to pass the Straits of Gibraltar! They bomb them away, you know....:D

[urisvan]

i understand that , it is better to keep wooden boats on the water rather than ashore if you can(anchor in a a secure place and control it regularly) in colder climates. is it the same in warmer climates too? what is the effect of the climate?

(and apex of course i will not buy this boat i can be a fool but not as much as that. i listen to the captains' words:) ) and i would be very nice if i can buy a boat from europe and sail Turkey. i am sure that it will be better than ones that i can find in turkey.
and it will be a nice trip also.

[alan white]

Shipworms work non-stop burrowing into wooden boats. Up north, we don't see these problems too much but in warmer climates a wood boat sees more damage from marine borers. Wood boats in general do far better in northern climates. I would think it would be the middle climes where boats would do best wintering in the water, especially salt water. Others may have different views. I'm really only familiar with my own area up here in Maine, which gets a lot of cold and snow.

[apex1]

The marine borers you find in more southerly oceans (though some in the med too). In the Bosphorus, Black Sea and Marmaris you do´nt find any, due to the low salinity. That has a disadvantage too, it gives rot a better chance than salt water does.
You know, if theres no compromise, there´s no boat.
But in this special case here, I would recommand to let a wooden boat sit in the water, rather than on the hard. The whole area here has noticeable to strong winds all year round, and high temperatures from April / May through Nov., that dries wood like a kiln!!!

To a new boat, bought in Europe.
I made a quick search for boats in the 7 - 8 meter class and found some original Folkeboats and others well worth a look:

http://www.boatshop24.com/web/de/suchen/s/index.htm?showid=1994237&SEARCH_PMAX=7500&SEARCH_LMIN=7&SEARCH_LMAX=9&SORTORDER=1&lastshow=175&totalcount=263

That is a boat, known by a friend, in pristine condition and well able to be sailed away.

here some others:

http://www.boatshop24.com/web/de/suchen/s/index.htm?showid=2152062&SEARCH_PMAX=7500&SEARCH_LMIN=7&SEARCH_LMAX=9&SORTORDER=1&lastshow=225&totalcount=263
http://www.boatshop24.com/web/de/suchen/s/index.htm?showid=1463996&SEARCH_PMAX=7500&SEARCH_LMIN=7&SEARCH_LMAX=9&SORTORDER=1&lastshow=50&totalcount=263
http://www.boatshop24.com/web/de/suchen/s/index.htm?showid=2086051&SEARCH_PMAX=7500&SEARCH_LMIN=7&SEARCH_LMAX=9&SORTORDER=1&lastshow=100&totalcount=263
http://www.boatshop24.com/web/de/suchen/s/index.htm?showid=2161887&SEARCH_PMAX=7500&SEARCH_LMIN=7&SEARCH_LMAX=9&SORTORDER=1&lastshow=175&totalcount=263

So, ring the bell when you´re prepared.

Regards
Richard

[peter radclyffe]

Ashore

[apex1]

Ashore

??????????????

[peter radclyffe]

Richard, excuse me, i retract my comment, i posted in haste before reading the whole thread,

[apex1]

Jaja, all the world is in a hurry.........................

[boat fan]

That boat is a bargain Richard , Nice !

[apex1]

I know, but I´m not the potential buyer..........

[urisvan]

hello,
than i thougth that folkboat's accommodation can be cramped, and decided to look at some alternatives.
can you assess this one:

http://www.botenbank.nl/boot/118778/bries-van-de-stadt

cheers
ulas

[apex1]

My favourite for 4 weeks now..............
and the one I posted in the Dutch helpers thread.

The boat sits on the hard, easy to inspect.
Has a Sabb Diesel, not easy to destroy.
Mast is already down, good for the canal trip.
Just needs to be inspected. And sure she will go for less than the 6.500.

[PAR]

Admittedly, I just scanned through the thread looking for key phrases and woods, but what I didn't see (which I may have missed) is the key element of this question. Is the planking plywood or solid lumber?

If the planking is solid lumber then leave in the water, haul annually for inspection and maintenance. I'm assuming traditional construction here, from the photos.

If the boat has plywood planking, then she'll store just fine on the hard, with a few cautions. Place stands under bulkheads or you'll easily pop open lap seams and block the keel. Plywood doesn't move nearly as much as solid lumber, but it does a little. It doesn't swell enough to make up for loose fasteners like solid lumber planking does, so if the fasteners are getting loose on the plywood planked boat, she'll get to a point where no amount of "letting her take up" will seal her leaks and she'll have to get some new fasteners. Often boats like this will have "goo" squirted into the leaking seams, but this doesn't work for long as the problem still exists (loose fasteners).

If the plywood planking has had polysulfide or polyurethane in the seams (when assembled) then she'll take to the hard better and longer then shellacked or painted seams.

Epoxy changes the whole equation. If either a solid planked or plywood planked boat is "properly" epoxied, then it can come ashore with few fears, because the wood is stabilized, as Alan and others have mentioned. Of course if the coating isn't complete encapsulation or has been breached, then you've got a whole new set of issues to contend with.

Sorry, just had to add my two cents.

[apex1]

A bit late Paul.

I gave her a short survey,
look here:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/can-lapstrake-planked-boats-stay-shore-winter-storage-more-29767-2.html#post308837

She definitely sits much better on the hard..................she´s firewood.