Bruce Roberts Designs

[doug lundy]

I noticed an old thread and wanted to comment..

I built a roberts 370 design and have never 'asked Bruce' but instead used the grace of local boatbuilding shops and suppliers and also fiberglass experts in the aviation industry for technical support..found used books like Ferenc Mate 'from a bare hull' and Vaits' One off boatbuilding in fiberglass which are far more helpful and sound than Roberts work..

From my background in basic physics and aviation work I immediately saw the engineering in his designs was intuitive and weak, not structurally sound..reinforcemnts not a the stress points and his laminate schedules are wasteful and heavy. Not engineered..

Until I asked his advice I suspected he did have qualifications as an NA and then with simple questions about speed and hull shape and boat performance, the only replies I got from him were demands for photos, to puff his promotional materals and then, "no comment."

There is a wealth of expertise and information here, Id just say if you have his plans, get LOCAL help to modify and tweak them to your purposes, or stdy and do it yourself..but dont "ask bruce" because its a waste of time.

His designs seem to be things you could find in any book of boat plans available in a used book store or taken from any proven, popular and tested classic design..Hes a marketer. His loyalty to his customers extends to cashing their checks..Dont ask me about Bruce!

He has quite a section on his website about stolen plans and detractors which seems to show he isnt held in high regard either business wise or as a designer. Boatbuilder Homebuilders, be advised...but nothing against his boats. Theyre beamy, stout and conservative shapes..stable. Some perform wonderfully others less, just depending on the quality of construction..which with amateur builders varies from marginal to superlative, of course..

Like one author clarifies, a good boat is a thousand jobs, done well. (more like a hundred thousand jobs)

[WestVanHan]

Many/most of "his" designs were designed by others who have been paid a fee for their plans.

And on the power boats,have to figure a way to smooth out those sharp right angles-weld in piping I guess.

The Aussie guy (Phil Hogg)has not stolen any plans,he bought the rights to them,and Bruce is pissy.
If BR had a foot to stand on it would be a simple matter for the courts to shut down Phil.

Few years ago a friend bought plans from BR for a sailboat.They messed up the order,sent him half for a different one-he was missing 1/3 of the plans for his boat.
BR said it was impossible, he was lying,trying to get 2 plans for the price of one etc.
Which is insane-all he wanted was the missing plans to his size of boat.
I think after threats of lawsuit,the missing parts were begrudgingly mailed.

2 years ago I enquired to BR about the TPI/cargo capacity of a couple power vessels on his site,I need a steel vessel.
Received a terse reply that I shouldn't try to steal proprietary info etc etc and that I should buy study plans for both and that will be $99.95 plus $19.95 shipping and handling please.

Well, F%^& that.

Last month I emailed Phil Hogg and received the info I wanted-one inch per ton of load.

V. nice email,had been cruising my area a fair amount,told me of some great places he had seen here,sees why I need steel,etc.

Who would you deal with?

I avoid (in every way posible) people who try to make themselves look better by running others down.

[doug lundy]

I beleive I had a great reply from Ted Brewer about one of his designs, but didnt persue it..

In this economy Ive found that abandoned projects are plentiful and you could buy salvage and abandoned boats for scrap value or less and get all the hard work done for free...ten cents on the dollar invested. Theres an abandoned ferro right down the dock from me with a 30K rig on it, for anyone able to dispose of a rotted cement hull, here it is!

Just shopping harbors and with want-ads and through local knowlege one can find a wealth of deals begging..Id never advise anyone to do what i did, and scratch build. Its a lifetime of work- glad I did it, but unless you have free facilities and want the expereince its an uphill battle to build for yourself.

Roberts knows his market has more imagination than experence..Id say get to know good folks in your local marine industry, local mechanics and shipwrights that are hands-on, not wheeler dealers. Let them steer you..as friends, not to sell you a bill of goods!

[Paul No Boat]

doug,

I have emailed both of the designers you speak of and my impression is exactly the same. Bruce Roberts dodged my simple questions pending the purchase of his plans in a "sell sell sell" environment, while Ted Brewer was more interested in helping me find a design for "My Boat" than he was in selling me a plan.

And he even took time to chat about unrelated topics like our common interest in model railroading and summer travel to see family at a distance. I felt like I was emailing with an old friend. And that is important when building any project from someone elses design whether it is a boat, toy train, or rocking horse as understanding the designers thinking helps to understand the architecture involved.

Ted gets my vote too and I am close to ordering his study plans for the Cape Cod Bay catboat.

[souljour2000]

Wow..I had heard of these designers so much I thought they were dead...or in nursing homes...good to know the...rest of the story...thanks..good thread guys...

[Paul No Boat]

Agree PAR,

I sure don't want to make a "Let's roast Bruce" thread out of this and I certainly don't have the experience to question the judgement of any proven designers. I can only go by my gut reaction to communications I have had with them. It's just that I have noticed a pattern in people's responces to both designers. But this isn't a popularity contest, is it?

Maybe my allegience to Ted Brewer stems more out of a kinship toward other subjects or just that I love the location at which he resides.

Mr. Robert's responce to my basic questions seemed almost in a copy and paste format. But I am sure all successful designers tire of potential clients (Newbies like me especially) looking for free advice or seeking answers better found in forums.

[Paul No Boat]

Yeah, for awhile I was building heirloom rocking horses. I gave several away to be used as charity fundraisers. (One right now for the Indianapolis Colts)

But when I tried to make a few honest bucks suddenly everyone needed one for a fundraiser and I should donate it. Forgetting that as a one off project I have hours and hours of hand sanding and numerous coats of hand rubbed lacquer or tung oil in them. I prefer using wood from a previous family treasure like from grandma's broken desk or something.

Boat designers and builders, like woodworkers, are artists and sometimes not good businessmen. Then after being taken advantage of a few times they sometimes overcompensate.

I am proud of my work and would like every child in the world to have one but dammit my time has a value too. and the stock argument of "I can get one at walmart for 50 dollars" infuriates me. Mine are labors of love not a production run.

So it is hard to know what drives people to do what they do. All we can do is make an initial connection with our mentors and go on instinct from there.

[troy2000]

Yeah, for awhile I was building heirloom rocking horses. I gave several away to be used as charity fundraisers. (One right now for the Indianapolis Colts)

But when I tried to make a few honest bucks suddenly everyone needed one for a fundraiser and I should donate it. Forgetting that as a one off project I have hours and hours of hand sanding and numerous coats of hand rubbed lacquer or tung oil.

Boat designers and builders like woodworkers are artists and often not good businessmen. Then after being taken advantage of a few times they sometimes overcompensate.

I am proud of my work and would like every child in the world to have one but dammit my time has a value too. and the stock argument of "I can get one at walmart for 50 dollars" infuriates me. Mine are labors of love not a production run.

So it is hard to know what drives people to do what they do. All we can do is make an initial connection with our mentors and go on instinct from there.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The only possible response to those people is, "then go to Walmart."

Up in Idyllwild, CA one time, I redid the living room of a gentleman's weekend cabin in knotty pine tongue and groove, and did a proper job. He also wanted his bedroom done, but when it came time he said he had found someone who would do it for half the money. I told him to go ahead and use the guy.

I dropped by a few months later for a friendly drink, and he proudly showed me the finished bedroom. It was terrible: face-nailed instead of blind nailed; the runs of t&g didn't match at the corners, and the corners were gapped; the top boards were wedge-shaped instead of running with the ceiling, because the runs weren't kept level; over-sized trim and molding everywhere to hide the poor cuts, etc.

The homeowner said, "see? Just like you would have done it, and for half the price." I started to tell him everything that was wrong with the job. Then I realized that if someone's unable to tell the difference between garbage and quality work, there's no point in them paying for quality.

So I told him, "yes; very nice." Then I had another beer and some good conversation, and went on my way.

[Paul No Boat]

Well said, Troy,

I have backed off on the rocking horses and now want to get started on a boat. But I would still build a horse for a worthy recipient. If my work is to go for free, I am at least gunna be damn picky about who it goes to.

It floored me when I read in another thread that after designing one of the 100 most magnificient boats in the county (The Tree of Life) Ted Brewer probably cannot afford one of his own designs. Such is the life of an artist/craftsman in this day and age of mass production.

[TollyWally]

Troy,
Pearls before swine, harsh perhaps but it's a shame when good practice is driven out by shoddy work. My daddy told me that the most important part of any job was to qualify the customer.

Paul,
The horses sound cool, I like that they're made out of Grandma's old desk sometimes. I need to start on my upcoming twin granddaughter's cradle. Naturally I want it to be a boat, still working out the details but I'm running out of time.

[troy2000]

Troy,
Pearls before swine, harsh perhaps but it's a shame when good practice is driven out by shoddy work. My daddy told me that the most important part of any job was to qualify the customer.

Paul,
The horses sound cool, I like that they're made out of Grandma's old desk sometimes. I need to start on my upcoming twin granddaughter's cradle. Naturally I want it to be a boat, still working out the details but I'm running out of time.

I once remodeled an old man's den, using a stack of used redwood 2x4's he supplied. The wood had come from corn cribs on his grandfather's farm, so no telling how old it was. It was mostly clear heart redwood, with a little sapwood here and there. The sapwood had worm holes in it, but the heartwood was still rock solid.

I re-sawed, planed, spliced, glued, routed and sanded until I thought I'd never want to smell redwood again. Eventually the stack turned into wainscoting and chair rail, book shelves, a bar, wall cabinets, a table and chair frames. The bar top was made from a 6x16"x10' chunk of what he said was a blue gum eucalyptus timber from an old bridge. By the time I finished dressing it flat and straight, and cutting off the cracked ends, it was more like 4x14"x8'.

If I remember right, Woodenboat used to have multiple ads for boat cradle plans in every issue; it might save you designing your own.

[troy2000]

Well said, Troy,

I have backed off on the rocking horses and now want to get started on a boat. But I would still build a horse for a worthy recipient. If my work is to go for free, I am at least gunna be damn picky about who it goes to.

It floored me when I read in another thread that after designing one of the 100 most magnificient boats in the county (The Tree of Life) Ted Brewer probably cannot afford one of his own designs. Such is the life of an artist/craftsman in this day and age of mass production.

A link to the boat you mentioned:

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/treeoflife.htm

[TollyWally]

Troy,
The coolest house I ever built made extensive use of lumber scavenged from a dairy closing down in the area. The homeowner had an in with the guy who had the demo contract. This was about a 5 year project so we had lots of time to get the wood.

There're lots of carpenter hero stories but to keep it brief, we made almost everything but the framing material from that place. The cabinets were fashioned out of the old creamery floor, our trophy piece of trim came from a 32' clear 2x12. I knew at the time this was probably as good as it was going to get, lightning in a bottle. Bittersweet.

[Paul No Boat]

Here is one of the horses I built. It is made from Indiana Cherry cut on her great grandpa's farm about 35 years ago. been sitting in a barn since.

http://lighthouscolor.tripod.com/ALLMakayla/Makayla/Avahorse.jpg

I wrote to Ted Brewer last night asking if he has or knows of any photo galleries of his boat Cape Cod Bay. Sadly he doesn't but I have found a few examples just surfing around the net. I would love to see one close up and with technical shots not scenic ones. and when I go see my granddaughter this summer on Puget Sound I plan to take a ride up to Port Townsend where I am sure I could find a few samples of Ted's designs.

But he does take the time to write back.

[troy2000]

Troy,
The coolest house I ever built made extensive use of lumber scavenged from a dairy closing down in the area. The homeowner had an in with the guy who had the demo contract. This was about a 5 year project so we had lots of time for to get the wood.

There're lots of carpenter hero stories but to keep it brief, we made almost everything but the framing material from that place. The cabinets were fashioned out of the old creamery floor, our trophy piece of trim came from a 32' clear 2x12. I knew at the time this was probably as good as it was going to get, lightning in a bottle. Bittersweet.

Yeah. When I waded into that pile of redwood, I knew it was a once-in-a-lifetime project. I did it for hourly wages, between other jobs. And I wish I had taken pictures.

[TollyWally]

Ride 'em lil buckaroo!

that's a good lookin bit of horse flesh, cowboy.

[Paul No Boat]

LOL thanks TollyWally

a pretty basic design really but if ya set one on the floor kids scramble to it.
I think that's the goal!!

I've been experimenting a little with flame painting with a propane torch. The hooves and muzzle were not painted but rather scorched on. Hardwoods take it well. softwoods catch fire and char but I think with enough practice I could do some nice markings that way.

[troy2000]

LOL thanks TollyWally

a pretty basic design really but if ya set one on the floor kids scramble to it.
I think that's the goal!!

I've been experimenting a little with flame painting with a propane torch. The hooves and muzzle were not painted but rather scorched on. Hardwoods take it well. softwoods catch fire and char but I think with enough practice I could do some nice markings that way.

Not gonna get that at Walmart for fifty bucks...or any other price.

I used to make simple pull-toy ducks for kids, with wheels offset on the axle so they bobbed from side to side. Little ones were fascinated by them.

I also made duck string puppets with wooden bodies, feet and heads connected with clothesline. With the body and head connected to one cross-piece and the two round feet connected to the other, you could get some wild movement out of them with a little practice. Little ones couldn't manipulate them, but they loved watching them.

Kinda hijacking the thread, aren't we? Not to worry, folks. Eventually someone will drag it back on track....:D

[Paul No Boat]

TollyWally, I just noticed you said "Twin" granddaughters. Does this mean you will be building a catamaran? hmmm it will have to rock fore and aft rather than side to side. Let's think this through. Congrats!!

Troy, that is awesome. Nothing makes it more worthwhile than to see a small child giggle at playing with a toy you have just completed. forget the $$$$
as far as the thread goes, seems the points were made and agreed upon. I don't wanna drag anyone through the mud. Just wanna learn who to follow.

Our discussion of woodwork is giving me ideas for procuring materials and personalizing a boat project. That makes it relevant, I guess.

here is something I sent Ted that he marveled at. When the designer of one of the 100 most beautiful yachts in the country is humbled you know it's good.
check this out http://4largescale.com/fletch/d40.htm

[troy2000]

TollyWally, I just noticed you said "Twin" granddaughters. Does this mean you will be building a catamaran? hmmm it will have to rock fore and aft rather than side to side. Let's think this through. Congrats!!

Troy, that is awesome. Nothing makes it more worthwhile than to see a small child giggle at playing with a toy you have just completed. forget the $$$$
as far as the thread goes, seems the points were made and agreed upon. I don't wanna drag anyone through the mud. Just wanna learn who to follow.

Our discussion of woodwork is giving me ideas for procuring materials and personalizing a boat project. That makes it relevant, I guess.

here is something I sent Ted that he marveled at: when the designer of one of the 100 most beautiful yachts in the country is humbled you know it's good.
check this out http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DavidFletcher/webstuff/spur-80/mason-5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://4largescale.com/fletch/d40.htm&usg=__c21_jr4MASKfZzNiI1fgBYyHQO0=&h=993&w=640&sz=157&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=v_ckUN4tawovgM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmason%2Bbogie%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Wow. I got through the first part, and bookmarked it so I can come back to the other seven parts.

[Paul No Boat]

I changed the link to: http://4largescale.com/fletch/d40.htm

it should load a little faster. check out the riverboat toward the bottom of the page. That justifies my putting it on a boat design forum. LOL

[Wynand N]

Many/most of "his" designs were designed by others who have been paid a fee for their plans.

In fact, one of his most successful plans (units sold), the Tom Thumb 24, was designed by Canadian Grahame Shannon. BR later stretch this boat to 26ft.

I built seven of these TT24's in the late 80's and bought the plans for the TT24 then from Grahame Shannon.

I had said it in the past and will repeat myself; BR is a great marketer that can sell crap with some false claims like fast building time for instance, ease of building etc etc to mainly rookies and amateurs dreaming of paradise and glorious sunsets on a sailboat - hence he selling them the largest design possible they can afford - resulting in so many BR abandoned projects when the truth of real building costs and building time and expertise needed reveal themselves.

As some poster said somewhere on this thread - he surrounds himself with talented people and buying copyrights of good plans from third parties making a profit. That takes a good marketing man to spot good plans like the TT24 for instance. That said, it does not make him a good designer....

[troy2000]

In fact, one of his most successful plans (units sold), the Tom Thumb 24, was designed by Canadian Grahame Shannon. BR later stretch this boat to 26ft.

I built seven of these TT24's in the late 80's and bought the plans for the TT24 then from Grahame Shannon.

I had said it in the past and will repeat myself; BR is a great marketer that can sell crap with some false claims like fast building time for instance, ease of building etc etc to mainly rookies and amateurs dreaming of paradise and glorious sunsets on a sailboat - hence he selling them the largest design possible they can afford - resulting in so many BR abandoned projects when the truth of real building costs and building time and expertise needed reveal themselves.

As some poster said somewhere on this thread - he surrounds himself with talented people and buying copyrights of good plans from third parties making a profit. That takes a good marketing man to spot good plans like the TT24 for instance. That said, it does not make him a good designer....

So is he a plus or a minus, in the grand scheme of things? I don't like the idea of abandoned projects because someone got suckered in over his head with false claims about ease of building. On the other hand, has his salesmanship managed to get a bunch of boats on the water that might not have been built, had he not pumped some encouragement into people?

[TollyWally]

"On the other hand, has his salesmanship managed to get a bunch of boats on the water that might not have been built, had he not pumped some encouragement into people?"

There is too much work involved in building a boat, a thousand things done right etc. etc. etc. for a huckster's silver tongued oratory to hold sway to the bitter end. Those that were going to complete a boat would have found another's plans. Of the remainder most of those boats were not going to be completed anyway but arguably more would have been completed if the builders had possessed a more realistic view of what the task would entail.

[apex1]

So is he a plus or a minus, in the grand scheme of things? ?

Troy,

there are two countries south of Germany, both German speaking.
One has a BIG Plus, the other one a very BIG minus in the national flag.

BR is more a Austrian, rather than a Swiss man....:cool: :cool:

[Boston]

I built a house made of gigantic whine barrels from somewhere in Cali
place consisted of three of them connected by cat walks and a roof.
Cost the poor guy a fortune and was not the most livable house I ever built.
Town called Gold Hill Col. and is owned by the guy who owns Om Banjo's, names Chuck and he was kinda a pain but not a bad fellow in the end.
I hated that job and it hated me. I was hired just as a carp. but when the general screwed up a few to many times I landed the job ( even though I did not want it ) and when I told the guy what I thought it would cost to complete he fired me right then and there.
Later he apologized when the project came in for nearly exactly what I had predicted.

oh
I found old Ted Brewer to be a decent sort
wrote him a few dumb questions about his Sofia Christina design and he was always generous with the answers

cheers
B

[Paul No Boat]

I've been to Gold Hill Colorado!! not far from Nederland right? don't recall seeing a house like that but that was a long long time ago. back when Cripple Creek was still a ghost town for real. LOL

[Boston]

yup
just outside of Ned past Ward off peak to peak highway
on the right to be specific
house was on the high side of town opposite lick skillet road by about 1 mile

PS
gambling destroyed every town it was legalized it
might as well have carpet bombed the place
not one old house survived in black hawk or cripple creek

[Paul No Boat]

Ouch!! I personally don't gamble, but I have come to terms with the fact that if people want to, there is no way I can stop them. I hate to see a place so rich with history changed that much to a completely different theme tho.
The irony of it is that Cripple Creek and the other gold rush towns got much of their start through gambling. Go figure.

[liki]

gambling destroyed every town it was legalized it

Partly because it is legal in only a few places, in the US.

[Boston]

no
because huge multinational corporations they went in with bull dossers and dynamite and leveled the town to make room for there hideously huge casino's

not one surviving building
it was tragic to the people who lived there
poor ignorant sots had no idea what was about to happen
oh the PR campain
you should have heard it
lots of mom and pop old time salloons
I remember the whole thing and didn't buy a word of it

I lived just down the road in a town of less than 100 people called Ward

oops

we return you to your regularly scheduled topic
sorry
I got carried away

talkative bastard that I am tend to get carried away from time to time

cheers
B

[Paul No Boat]

OMG Boston I spent a summer in Boulder in about 1971 and Ward was where we rode our motorcycles to have breakfast at a little cafe there. Can't for the life of me remember the name.

I can certainly appreciate your passion on this topic. I have seen what they do.

I took some classes at a university just down the road from a big casino and about the time the student loan checks were dispersed the casino would have a big campaign to get the kids to come by ignoring the drinking age laws.

I was an older student but they would gleefully tell me. "That place is run by the nicest people, they give us free drinks." and I would shake my head "They are not nice people giving you free drinks, they are evil people getting you drunk and taking away your money" I could not count the number of kids I saw go home broke, in debt, with no education.

the stories go on and on, don't they?

[Boston]

they do and its criminal
it was hard enough to work my way through school
being half native american I have to resist drinking to much
so it was hard to run a biz and attend classes

I lived in boulder from about 1984 to about 1995
then moved up into the mountains to ward were I lived for about 3 years while I stumbled into house after house to build

used to go partying up at the old school house in rolinsville with "left over salmon" also known as the "string cheese incident"

the old mill house just down the hill is still a big draw although the building kinda scares me cause its about to fall over and yet they bring in these whopping PA systems and vibrate the hell out of it

was that old cafe the one on the left as you head up the hill through town
same side as the post office
or was it the one on the right
next to the general store

The old Cafe on the left is now owned by a real scum bag, lets just say nearly every kid in town is up on drug charges and pretty much hooked on something or another. no one who knows any better really goes in there any more and the place is a wreck

the old cafe on the right is still there but its the arts and crafts section of the general store now

not really serving breakfast any more

the preacher opened up a breakfast place in the new church though and dam
can that boy cook

its on the right just up from the junk yard

Remember old Fuzzy the not official town cop
or Norm the other not so official town cop

Justice in a small town is an interesting proposition
not sure what you know about Ward but it was an interesting place
and I could tell you some real stories about dealing with jackasses up there
basically in the three years I was there more than one person got marched to the end of town and sent packing
best not to return

I love that place and still go visit friends there whenever I can

[Paul No Boat]

It was so long ago I honestly don't remember the exact location of the cafe. It was on the "uphill side" of town tho with its back toward the divide, if that helps. Ward was pretty much a run down ghost town at the time as was much of Colorado in 1971 and in retrospect a person could have made a fortune buying up old properties. I thought thirty five thousand for 20 acres just outside Boulder was a rediculous price. What would that sell for now?

I am sorry to hear about the heritage lost to the casinos there. We have the same encroachment here in Indiana, but in a few cases it has paid for some astounding renovations. The old West Baden Springs Hotel where Al Capone used to go to gamble is a paradise of gardens, artwork and architecture costing in the hundreds of millions to bring back to pristine condition.

As long as gambling is optional I guess I don't really have anything to say about it. What scares me is that in small towns with volunteer fire departments etc, the responce by municiple services are based on who is in the inner circle. and the way in is by attending friday night bingo at the fire station. If you don't donate or gamble, they might just ignore your burning house. Sad but true in a corrupt local government. The irony being that since Indiana is a "bible belt" state people swore 15 years ago we would never have gambling since the bible specifically condemns the casting of lots. But then someone did a study on how much money could be made and that page of the scripture was torn out.

Just be glad you are not a victim of it and devote your time to boat building, a pastime with few sins involved. At least from my viewpoint.

[troy2000]

It was so long ago I honestly don't remember the exact location of the cafe. It was on the "uphill side" of town tho with its back toward the divide, if that helps. Ward was pretty much a run down ghost town at the time as was much of Colorado in 1971 and in retrospect a person could have made a fortune buying up old properties. I thought thirty five thousand for 20 acres just outside Boulder was a rediculous price. What would that sell for now?

I am sorry to hear about the heritage lost to the casinos there. We have the same encroachment here in Indiana, but in a few cases it has paid for some astounding renovations. The old West Baden Springs Hotel where Al Capone used to go to gamble is a paradise of gardens, artwork and architecture costing in the hundreds of millions to bring back to pristine condition.

As long as gambling is optional I guess I don't really have anything to say about it. What scares me is that in small towns with volunteer fire departments etc, the responce by municiple services are based on who is in the inner circle. and the way in is by attending friday night bingo at the fire station. If you don't donate or gamble, they might just ignore your burning house. Sad but true in a corrupt local government. The irony being that since Indiana is a "bible belt" state people swore 15 years ago we would never have gambling since the bible specifically condemns the casting of lots. But then someone did a study on how much money could be made and that page of the scripture was torn out.

Just be glad you are not a victim of it and devote your time to boat building, a pastime with few sins involved. At least from my viewpoint.

It's been my experience that boatbuilding is a good way to stay out of trouble...it simply doesn't leave you much time or energy for sinning....:p

I have an ex-wife somewhere in Colorado; probably somewhere around Grand Junction. Met her in Montrose...I unofficially gave her the entire state of Colorado in the divorce settlement. I've never been back, and as far as I know she's never left.

[Paul No Boat]

or money sinning is expensive!!

Boston, if you have a little time on your hands, sometime take the Amtrak California Zepher to Grand Junction or Salt Lake City and back . It's a great way to relax and the food ain't bad either.

My ex lives in Seattle and my daughter cooks at a nice restaurant within sight of Puget Sound and feeds a well off yachting clientel. I call her my Cheeseburger in Paradise. LOL and she's catered a few charter parties.

The downside is that Dear Old Dad is now addicted to boats. Can't wait to take my granddaughter out for a day of whale watching. I go on Puget Sound Express from Port Townsend, operated by the Hanke family who originally owned The Alcyone, a 65' schooner . Nice folks and the coffee cake is wonderful.

[SheetWise]

I have an ex-wife somewhere in Colorado; probably somewhere around Grand Junction. Met her in Montrose...I unofficially gave her the entire state of Colorado in the divorce settlement. I've never been back, and as far as I know she's never left.

I hope you also sent her a 1099.

;)

[Boston]

ah
that ones not actually in the town
its top of the hill to the right off peak to peak hwy
cant recall the name of it at the moment but its still there
after the old saloon fell down it got more popular and now it has new owners
don't know them but they own that big horse ranch a few miles north past America st. Nice folks, Ive spoken to them a few times but dont really know them.

I drive that loop sometimes but for train rides the old steam train out of George town is the best in the state. The old cast iron bridge is spectacular unless its windy and then sometimes they dont even run the train.

for as much as I like Colorado Im dying to sail into Ketchikan and explore Alaska for a few years. Spend my winters in the Seattle area

if I could afford the big boat I could maybe do charters till I got sick of it or until I felt a dying urge to throw someone overboard

cheers
B