Separate Deck From Hull

[BobBill]

I don't know of books or articles, which doesn't mean there couldn't be some.

Along the edge of the hull to deck joint there usually is an extruded piece of aluminum or plastic, often it has a rubber or PVC insert. If it has the insert, find the seam (usually at the bow or transom corners) and pry it out. Grab it with a pair of pliers and pull it the rest of the way out of the track.

Under this you'll find a few hundred screws, which will likely be stainless sheet metal flat heads. Remove all of them, then peal off the aluminum/PVC track. If you're neat about this you can reuse it or you can kink it up and buy a new one.. The deck cap/liner is typically bedded or glued down. Considering the age of the boat, it's probably butyl rubber or polyurethane. Use a stiff putty knife and lever it into the joint. I usually use a torch and heat up the knife until it's red hot and this cuts right thought the bedding material.

Now the hard part is actually lifting the cap/liner off the hull shell. It's often best to use an engine hoist, chain fall or come-a-long attached to a handy tree branch. The boat's weight will assist in pealing off the liner. Work the putty knife around until it's free, then set the cap aside.

Once it's off, you'll see the foam, which will probably smell like your ex-wife's old underwear. The foam cuts very easily with hand tools like hand saws. Hack away and remove major portions, then scrape out the rest.

Clean the edges of the hull shell and deck cap where they rest on each other and prep for re-bedding the liner back on the hull. If you want you can use new foam, but I wouldn't bother, as air chambers work just as effectively as foam filled chambers.

Par, You certainly know your stuff and are extremely helpful. And, though topic is limited in appeal, may help in this project or others.

I plan to separate the deck from the hull on a small dinghy also, and your comments are greatly appreciated.

My question concerns how one separates the upper section or decking from the hull at centerboard or dagger board case?

This boat is a doubled hulled design once popular and produced by Newport Boats (Mobjack, Kite, Pacific Cat) Pics added to clarify boat. Deck is above waterline.

Am guessing the case is somehow chemically fastened when mated internally.

And, I was thinking that replacing the foam only at high points, to assure buoyancy if totally swamped...what kind of foam is customarily used?

Refers to project in thread below here - http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/test-experiment-29733.html

[PAR]

Your boat has a bonded deck cap to hull joint as do many small sailors. Larger craft have a bedded hull to deck joint, typically covered with an aluminum extrusion and hard fastened with sheet metal screws.

Both joints can be separated, though it's a lot easier to break open a bedded joint then a bonded one.

Bonded joints have to be carefully cut open. My tool of choice for this is a small air powered jig saw sort of tool. It has a small blade and can be steered very well in confined spaces. The idea is to imagine where the joint is bonded and split the cap from the hull.

On your boat there's more to it as the dagger case and likely other areas, mast step, transom, etc., will need special attention. How to approach this would be a "open 'er up and have a look" kind of thing. You may be able to use similar techniques from the outside or you may have to wedge the boat open as best as you can then cut from the inside.

Looking inside the deck access ports with a light and mirror, may show what you're up against. In any event, you'll have to make 'glass repairs from tears, cracks and rips during the process, which is just the nature of this type of work.

Your attempt with the surface piercing bow isn't going to do much for you on such a bluff entry boat. You need an entirely different entry for this to have any merit.

[BobBill]

Thank-you, Bill. I appreciate your advice and your time.

It is as I thought. I figured it was bonded, not "butylized."

As you stated, the joint is covered by aluminum rub rails (late model as former models were teak) with pop rivets. I bought one of those vibrating tools to open the top and will add inspection ports in appropriate areas to spy.

It was the dagger board case that had caused most concern, and will have to look to see how the maker did it. This boat was made after Brunswick took over and the firm was in trouble, so they did take shortcuts that Newport and Carter Pyle likely frowned upon.

I will do it in spring and let you know.

As to the bow. I will likely not go for the dread style, but it is a thought still. I sail in areas of significant chop, so will have to hold off on that one anyway until we get the hull solid. I realize the short hull offers little opportunity for improving the straight line motion, but will leave that to later thoughts.

Hull first, improve traveler, add longer narrower kick-up rudder, add Force 5 mast, boom and sail to fit into mast chock and step.

Force 5 sail is larger, so may go to full battens and shorten, with flat head. (Will refinish original mast and boom and set aside; original sail will patch and store - all 1973 mfgr.)

One thing, What kind of foam is typical for this application. I am guessing the foam, if any, is laid up along hull sides, with open interior stem area for draining the condensation etc.

Again, I appreciate your advice and your time.

Bob H.

[PAR]

There will be no consideration for draining condensation from the interior of the boat. The foam will be open cell polyurethane or polystyrene or something, who knows, but it's suck up moisture like a sponge. It's arrangement below the deck cap will be equally as haphazard. These two things are common problems with production boats from that era. Others will be reinforcement areas made from wood, that have rotted from the moisture collected between the deck cap and hull shell, (with no place to go). Transoms and under seats are common locations for this as, would be mast steps and other high load spots.

[BobBill]

Thanks again.

So foam is a no-no.

Any other choice, styro or similar products glued in place; or just leave it and seal it?

I had thought to put minimal flotation in bow and just forward of transom on each side - styro or some closed cell stuff. Minimal amount.

Transom on this boat is solid.

I kind of guessed the foam was a sponge. Did not like idea of redoing old errors, but am limited in knowledge there.

Bob

[PAR]

Don't bother replacing the foam. With sealed chambers, they do the same thing and can't absorb moisture, plus they can be drained.

[BobBill]

Aye. Leave it and seal it then.

Thanks.

One last question. Would you recommend "butylizing" with marine sealer at deck-to-hull joinery or bond it?

I really do not know how much the two parts contribute to rigidity, but the deck and hull joint is right-angled where they join with what appears to be the snap rivets holding the rub rail through the deck and hull into the void between them..

Interesting project this.

[kite sailor]

I don't know if this reply is too late or not, but I thought I'd share. I stumbled upon this thread searching for info on the Newport/mobjack Kite. I have one and I am currently restoring it. I separated the deck from the hull in order to do some glass work on the inside to stiffen the hull here is a link to a gallery of photos (http://picasaweb.google.com/dan18keen/KiteAbbey#) from the process. There are plenty of shots of the separation. We simply pulled off the rub rail, then pulled out all the rivets joining the deck and hull then used a skill saw to cut through the glass around the entire boat. Then three others and myself lifted the deck off the hull with ease. Some hindsight 20/20 advice though is to cut the deck off from the underside so that when you replace it the deck overlaps the hull. It will be much easier to refasten and seal the two together.

Also, about the foam inside: As you can see in the pics the foam inside mine was terribly water-logged so we discarded it entirely. We will be replacing it with expanding foam (industrial version of the "Great Stuff" in the spray can you can buy at the hardware store). I'm told, and it makes sense to me, that foam filled chambers are better than just airtight because if the chamber is ever compromised, filled with foam it will never sink, but if it is just air filled it will certainly fill with water and sink.

BobBill, I want to restore my kite to factory condition. I saw the old advert, which is a gem by the way, and would be interested in any other information you may have about the design. I've been looking for years online and have turned up very little beyond the wikipedia page. I'm especially looking for the specs on the original dagger-board, the one I have is definitely not the original. Also, anything concerning hull numbers and their place of manufacture would be great. Anything really, I would greatly appreciate. And if I can help with any other questions about the work you are doing on yours please let me know.

[PAR]

Kite sailor, this is an old thread, but hopefully he's still watching.

The "industrial" foam you're going to use in very likely 2 part polyurethane, probably 2 pound density stuff. Unless you can control the environment perfectly (like have it done inside an air conditioned room with dust and humidity control, you'll just end up with new foam that will soak up moisture. It'll do it at a slower rate then the stuff you removed, but it will still soak it up.

I'd strongly recommend you place drains aft, in the transom so that the chambers can drain any accumulated moisture while living bow high on the trailer. If the foam is there, it will prevent this and you'll slowly pick up moisture weight as the years go by.

This isn't my first picnic, I've got a wee bit of experience at this sort of thing. Your picture essay is worth a thousand paragraphs. Thanks for the post Kite sailor.

[kite sailor]

Thanks for your thoughts PAR. I will pass your advice on to the gentleman who will be installing the foam. And you can be sure there will be a drainage in the transom. And yes the pictures are a wonderful documentation now if I could just find out some more information on the design... Thanks again hopefully BobBill will check back.

[PAR]

Bags would be a better choice, they don't absorb moisture and will let any accumulated wetness drain off. BobBill posted on this forum a few days ago, so I'm sure he'll be back.

[TollyWally]

Kite,
I just thought I'd commend you for your photos. A picture's worth a thousand words and you brought a lot of clarity to the table by assembling your photos before posting.

PS Par's remarks about the foam are worth considering before you button her up.

[sagtadd]

Thank-you, Bill. I appreciate your advice and your time.

It is as I thought. I figured it was bonded, not "butylized."

As you stated, the joint is covered by aluminum rub rails (late model as former models were teak) with pop rivets. I bought one of those vibrating tools to open the top and will add inspection ports in appropriate areas to spy.

It was the dagger board case that had caused most concern, and will have to look to see how the maker did it. This boat was made after Brunswick took over and the firm was in trouble, so they did take shortcuts that Newport and Carter Pyle likely frowned upon.

I will do it in spring and let you know.

As to the bow. I will likely not go for the dread style, but it is a thought still. I sail in areas of significant chop, so will have to hold off on that one anyway until we get the hull solid. I realize the short hull offers little opportunity for improving the straight line motion, but will leave that to later thoughts.

Hull first, improve traveler, add longer narrower kick-up rudder, add Force 5 mast, boom and sail to fit into mast chock and step.

Force 5 sail is larger, so may go to full battens and shorten, with flat head. (Will refinish original mast and boom and set aside; original sail will patch and store - all 1973 mfgr.)

One thing, What kind of foam is typical for this application. I am guessing the foam, if any, is laid up along hull sides, with open interior stem area for draining the condensation etc.

Again, I appreciate your advice and your time.

Bob H.

Bob H.
In the above post you mention "This boat was made after Brunswick took over and the firm was in trouble, so they did take shortcuts that Newport and Carter Pyle likely frowned upon." This statement seems to imply that you have some resource of information on the designer, manufacturer and perhaps history of the Kite. I am writing an article on the restoration of my Kite, but I have very little information on the background and history of this nice little boat. If you have any information of that kind, such as a manufacturer's borchure or other material, would you mind sharing it. I could go to a web site where it is posted and read it only. I will give complete credit to any resource, either published or personally communicated, such as in e-mail. I in no way want to usurp anyone's copyright on the information. I hope the article, if published, will engender more information on this boat, perhaps even bring out more owners and people who are restoring their boats. Thank you in advance....Sagtadd

[BobBill]

Sagtadd, (and Sailor) I will forward some of the data from my other computer and will also give you the address of some gents in CA who are very much into restoring Kites and may have more information than I do.

I am an old sailor who had one in the 60s and am going back to it...very sensible boat to putter in and to teach active kids to sail in, as well as safe and so on...

You can PM for email address and I will send the pics and links I have direct, as well as the address of the fellows who are restoring the boats in
CA.

Sorry for the tardy response Sailor and Sagtad, but I have been shoveling snow ;] Will get back to you soon.

Some pics; I have a bunch.

[sagtadd]

BobBill,
Here is my direct e-mail so you can mail the information you spoke about. Thanks very much. the address is lmabbey@comcast.net.
Best regards for New Year.....Sagtadd

[Steve Clark]

The hull deck joint is most likely filled with some version of filled polyester resin.This stuff isn't remarkably tenacious, so it is often possible to insert a putty knife and simply unzip the hull deck joint.
Mess around a bit with heating up the knife with a blow torch if it is hard to get started.
You may damage either laminate a bit along the way, but it will be easier to glue the boat back together if the parts are more or less their original shape,
The spray foam buoyancy is something best avoided.It has ~2% porosity by volume and so can gain a whole lot of weight in a hurry, and shrinks after it has expanded, and thus can distort whatever it is bonded to. Best to add ribs, easily done by glassing over split pipe insulation to stiffen the hull and deck.
You can provide emergency buoyancy cheaply by putting 1/2 liter PEK soda bottles inside the hull, or milk jugs or anything of that nature. A mesh bag does a fine job keeping them from rattling around too much,
SHC

[kite sailor]

Hey everyone. I wanted to let anyone who has been following this kite restoration to check back to the picture gallery (http://picasaweb.google.com/dan18keen/KiteAbbey#) many new pics have been added.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice. I realize not everyone will second our choice to go with the foam, but for us, going for accuracy in this restoration, thought that the downside to our choice would be minimal. So the deck has been reattached, the gunwales got some glass on the undersides to stiffen them, the mast footing was removed, reinforced, and reattached, the entire deck has been stripped of all paint and grip tape, and finally the deck is repainted she looks great and I now believe she will be ready to sail in the spring. On to the hull, I'm thinkin bright red.

Cheers! Happy New Year!

[PAR]

Traditionally red is bad luck on sailing yachts, so if you want to win more then you don't, then paint it dark blue with a gold cove stripe. Nice job of patching her up, now lets see her splashed and underway.

[kite sailor]

... or so most Europeans believed until the 19th century, including the Italians whose cuisine, today, would be unrecognizable without the bright red berry. I've always been of the mind that luck falls where it will, and good luck to anyone who is blessed with a bounty.

Truth be told I never did much racing. I've only seen one other kite in my life, in person, so I think one would have a train full of trouble putting together enough kites for a single design race if one opened it to the entire east coast. I got the idea for red last summer when I watched the Volvo Open 70s arriving in Boston Harbor and I'll tell you team Puma's mostly red hull looked pretty swell on that dark, ocean blue water.

Maybe its got something to do with red and blue being complementary colors. The Impressionist Claude Monet used to play the two in his seascapes often. Bottom line, nobody will miss a red boat sailing on blue water under a blue summer sky, tomato red was one of the original color choices for the boat, and our projects goal is close accuracy after all.

I do appreciate the compliment from PAR, and I do agree with PAR on his most important point; I can't wait to get her on the water!

[PAR]

Your Kite can compete under Portsmouth rate, in local regattas if you like.

[kite sailor]

That's true. But as someone who is not a racer I don't wanna win by way of a formula.

[PAR]

Most of us have to win by a formula, you ain't so special. Besides, you'll have to sail your heart out to do well against your "number". You'll learn an incredible amount about sailing with just a few races under your belt. Don't discount it until you've had your butt completely handed to you (on the race course), by a girl half your son's age and you just can't admit to the embarrassment any more.

[BobBill]

Most of us have to win by a formula, you ain't so special. Besides, you'll have to sail your heart out to do well against your "number". You'll learn an incredible amount about sailing with just a few races under your belt. Don't discount it until you've had your butt completely handed to you (on the race course), by a girl half your son's age and you just can't admit to the embarrassment any more.

I will "Aye!" that one...just when you think you are old enough to be a pro, you get it handed to you on a platter.

Good one, Par! I will smile all day. You are not alone.

Kite Sailor, kindly check you emails. This crew has a few questions on your Kite separation and rejoin experience that the pics do not quite explain.

I take it your mast and boom are in good or good refurbish-able condition. That motor is essential and very rare to find one in great shape after being around for 40 years.

Still, I have to thank you for your great, no, outstanding, record keeping and pics.

[BobBill]

I have gone over the pics by Kite Sailor well.

I have questions.

Was the frame (absolutely) necessary?

Why did you screw the deck to the hull supports? Would not the adhesive used for deck hull have been sufficient? (It looks like that was done.)

What were the wood blocks at various points installed to do, spacers?

Why the foam in the center, where the water will weep, instead of along both sides as factory?

(Not that I would install floats. I like Steve Clark's idea of using some sort of bottle type...am planning on using 4 of those circular deck ports to maintain interior after finishing - no foam.)

[kite sailor]

BobBill,

I responded to your email I received on Jan 1st. I sent the response to your @hbci.com address, it would be from my @yahoo.com address. I hope you got, or can get it. The response had a lot of good info in it, and some questions about your boat, please let me know if I need to resend it and a good address to send it to. Just email me here through boatdesign.net and it will get forwarded to my yahoo.com address if you didn't receive my response. I will try to answer your questions here:

- I can't say if the hull frame/cradle is absolutely necessary, I've never tried it without it. The use of it was the marine architect's idea. His reasons were that it maintains the hull shape (when the deck is removed the hull loses a lot of its rigidity) and it is certainly a big advantage maneuvering the hull around safely and without damaging it.

- The deck was screwed down for strength and stiffness. It had screws originally when I bought her, but they were lose. So at that time, 20 yrs ago, we replaced them all with rivets and glassed over them. This time after the glass reinforcement of the longitudinal members we decided to go back to screws that were countersunk and then glassed over flush so you can't even tell they are there. Adhesive may work all by itself, but we decided to play it safe. Where I sail the ocean is quite cold, even during a summer heat wave, but with the sun the beach can be quite hot. So a boat hauled up on the beach after a sail (or hauled into the cold water for a sail) can change temperature quite drastically in a short time, so we were thinking of the expansion/contraction issue as well.

- The blocks are marine-ply we mounted to back the areas where we will later attach hardware to the deck. We did this so we could use screws again instead of rivets or through-bolts (the backs of which could prove impossible to access ever again).

- The rationale behind the foam was this: After taking into consideration the condensation and water infiltration concerns I had, and that were voiced in this forum the decision was made to; one, make the hull as airtight as possible to eliminate water infiltration; two, to use a closed-cell foam in multiple pours to reduce absorption and in the case of some minimal absorption to prevent the moisture from wicking through the entire foam mass; and three, to use the bare minimum of foam most efficiently to last the longest. The foam is in the bottom chamber because in order to put under the gunwales, as done by the factory, we would've had to make molds an install it after it cured, or cut and shape a ready solid foam, both options run the risk of compromising the closed-cell integrity of the foam. The drainage is also best there in the bottom chamber there is a well channeled path for any moisture to drain out the port in the transom so long as the bow is tipped up. Also, the only way to attach any foam to the underside of the gunwales would have involved adhesives, and as you can see from the "before" pics eventually the adhesive fails.

I won't know the success of these solutions until the weather gets warmer so all I can provide is theory now, and I'll admit the foam fill in the hull is still a question mark for me. From your description of your plan it sounds as though you are taking a different route (which is quite reasonable and sound.) I don't think our strategy would work as well with multiple ports into the inner-hull, and I decided against any visible ports simply to stay as true as possible to the factory aesthetics.

[BobBill]

Many thanks.

I did not receive any emails. Could be the spammer thingy grabbed it and I deleted unknowingly.

Will recheck.

You can try again - I was able to download the pics, one at a time - and will have some questions for you.

A past owner must have messed with the hull a bit...never saw one with screws in deck...

The center pipe thwart traveler is not stock at least until after my boat was made, sail number 1306 and may have been a different maker.

Kites had the trav set on 5/8 deck track.

I sent email to your Comcast server.

Shoot me another from Yahoo...

And, thanks again. what a great job you did.

I take it the mast is okay.

[kite sailor]

BobBill, just resent the email, again to your @hbci.com address. The mast and boom are in fine shape, fortunately. Finding out about the traveler is taking some time but we think we have a lead on answering the question. By the way, is your dagger board original?

[BobBill]

Yes. The D-board is original. In fact all of boat is original, though mast is about 50% and has some cracks. Sail is way out of shape, rudder is original but needs refinishing.

Will send you another PM with email and copy of what I sent on the email, if you did not get it. I will check my spam, but not getting emails.

As long as your boat has the tube thwart traveler, I suggest you stay with it.

The deck was not reinforced for the track, so the current mode is likely a better choice now.

[BobBill]

I had not planned to support the Kite's hull when I separate it, but now wondering if I could fabricate a frame and use poly foam to support hull with release agent.

Basically, spray in three areas and lay hull onto foam...the proceed with work.
Maybe even three separate channels athwart the hull...

[BobBill]

Have been mulling Steve Clark's idea about using sealed plastic bottles etc for bouyancy or floatation inside dinghy hull and Par's suggestion of not using any devices, especially foam.

Also came up with a means to part the decks, I think.

"nothing" is better than wet foam, and Clark has a point if one worries about needs to be airtight for a time.

But, though I am still thinking on it, seems some sort of light, refillable airbags, accessible via ports in hull or tucked here and there on some open boats seems a good idea too.

As to tool to separate deck from hull, Perhaps a well shaped old hacksaw or flat metal, even a flattened and shaped BBQ charcoal heater or metal, connected to a rheostat and 110 AC, to heat may be useful. Heated just enough and shaped to a right angle where the deck cap meets the hull.

[bistros]

Have been mulling Steve Clark's idea about using sealed plastic bottles etc for bouyancy or floatation inside dinghy hull and Par's suggestion of not using any devices, especially foam.
<snip>

As to tool to separate deck from hull, Perhaps a well shaped old hacksaw or flat metal, even a flattened and shaped BBQ charcoal heater or metal, connected to a rheostat and 110 AC, to heat may be useful. Heated just enough and shaped to a right angle where the deck cap meets the hull.

Given that Steve Clark has been responsible for building more boats than the rest of the forum put together, I'd pay attention to his advice. Probably more important that building the Vanguard boats is that he was also responsible for avoiding repair costs and warranty expenses on the thousands built.

The plastic bottle comment was perhaps a little tongue in cheek, but some type of cheap redundant flotation that doesn't absorb water is better than nothing. At the sailing school I taught at 30 plus years ago, we had a bunch of elderly Albacores with 2 liter soft drink bottles living under the foredecks in mesh bags - we just could not afford anything better.

Air bags are the right way to handle a boat with no or compromised air chambers. They are relatively cheap, easy to inspect, and easy to replace when (not if) they are compromised.

--
Bill

[Doug Lord]

Given that Steve Clark has been responsible for building more boats than the rest of the forum put together, Bill
=========
Steve has done tremendous things-but this comment is absolutely ridiculous.

[bistros]

=========
Steve has done tremendous things-but this comment is absolutely ridiculous.

How many hulls did Vanguard put together over the years? Think about the Lasers, the 420s, Optis etc.

Steve was responsible for thousands of boats built as President & CEO of Vanguard. I seriously doubt anyone else here can claim anywhere close.

--
Bill

[BobBill]

I understand and take advice well. If the advice makes sense, the source does not matter to me. Clark made me smile, but he sided with Par over foam, which is the important thing for me. Those wee bags the Optis use seem the ticket.

Say, Dougie lad, Steve C's Vanguard made good boats, though a bit spendy then for me. They were the best in class, no doubt. Am only too eager to acknowledge his advice and take it to heart. Bill's comment was undoubtedly generalization.

Genius minds must think alike, as I have occasionally employed a similar signature to Clark's... "The morale will continue until the floggings improve!" Used to write it on the chart boards at GM meetings. Mgmt never got it, obviously.

May be some bladders available somewhere. I have some time to check it out, as there is another fargin' four inches of snow on the ground here. Just had a brainstorm - those LONG TUBES kids swim with, whatever they are called. Cheap and disposable and yes I think so...

Yes Bill, in the late 60s, I raced a few times with some guys and we too used whatever we could to hang in the I 14s for floatation. For us, nothing ever stayed in place during competitions and we would have to deal with rolling debris all the time.

Wish I could do it again...

Think the electrical idea (to soften hull/deck joint) is overkill? I would like to slip it down the joint like butter.

[Paul B]

Those wee bags the Optis use seem the ticket.

May be some bladders available somewhere.


http://www.apsltd.com/c-4686-BuoyancyBags.aspx


Many shapes and sizes.

[Steve Clark]

The Laser used something called "cubetainers" which were a lot like 4 liter polyethylene water jugs you get at camping stores. This was specified in the Laser building manual, and every laser built has plastic jugs inside for emergency flotation. So one gallon plastic jugs is really not a joke, but a fairly common solution.
Obviously purpose built airbags are also a good solution. Canoe and kayak suppliers have many sizes and types. The Optimist bag is also pretty universally available. We used to have two specs, one that was for inside the "covers" and a separate one that was used as the stern bag. It was coated nylon where as the others were tough vinyl of some sort.

I would recommend trying a few simple things before winding up a heated boat breaker.. Usually the glass skins are much tougher than the putty, and if you just get it started, you can pry the pieces apart pretty easily. You can test this idea with a putty knife and a blow torch.
Dremel also has a number of useful bit for their little tools. There is an 1/8" carbide tile cutting burr and a number of little diamond wheels that are favorites around her for cutting composites. They are worth the $.
One hing to try is to cut out the putty as deeply and carefully as you can and then start wedging the pieces apart. Shingles can be cut into great little wedges ( sometimes you can even find them already cut up as "porch shims") so you can progressively crack the hull deck joint.

It is also a good idea to have a cradle of some sort to keep things in shape while they are apart. It is unlikely that the boat was assembled in space, more likely it was bonded before the hull was released from the mold, or was bonded in an assembly jug of some sort. This can be very casual, a bit of CDX plywood and bondo will make excellent cradles very quickly.
Good luck,
SHC

[BobBill]

Thank-you, Mr. Clark. Captain Bob will do as suggested. You and Par have both oars in the water and I listen.

I sort of was planning to do the slice and wedge thing first, using carpenter shims as levers...carefully, to remove the deck. The electric idea was one of my ideas. I never stop thinking about the projects.

Your comments about the jugs is good, was thinking about the large water jugs campers use, so they can be removed or resealed; milk jugs would be fine, but for the potential rattling and caps coming off. Will work that out. Those long swimming tubes (pool noodles?) do sound silly but they can be bundled and are way low in cost, easily replaced.

Yes, a basic jig is called for, and I will work some sort of design along your suggestions out.

After I clean out the old foam and clean the interior up, I will fix the soft parts of the hull and re glass the bottom where worn, reinforce the hardware anchor points,the rest will be a breeze.

Even adding some surface to the rudder and so on should be easy.

I will post pics to keep interested souls up to date, when the weather breaks.

Merci for your attention to details.

AC coming up this next week.

All the best.

[catenahalf]

I too am a proud owner of a Kite. I picked it up at a local boat auction for $100. With neglected mast, boom & daggerboard. Rudder is all delaminated and only good for a pattern. Sail looks pretty good. Not sure what hull# it is; there is a very faint dymo looking label that resembles #383...just not sure. There surely isn't a metal mfg's ID plate like I've seen on a real early Kite.

From what I can tell the boat is pretty stock, no ports, or non factory hardware.

There are some rather large soft spots on the hull and deck. I can hear some of the foam rattling around. The other kite owners on this thread have motivated me to crack her open.

Hope kitesailor and BobBill come back. My email attempt to BobBill got bounced and still waiting on kitesailor---thanks for the photos kitesailor, they are encouraging; great work!

Dan

[kite sailor]

So I we have the Kite put back together now and we have the first coat of paint on her, after the primer of course. She looks great in red! So according to all the literature and pics I can find Kites left the factory with a boot stripe, I'm still debating doing this... opinions? and if yes what color?

[BobBill]

Most sported white boots, but whatever you want...here is mine, but I may not do with stripe after I finish the hull work...

Cat, I would think the rudder is salvageable, with a bit of sanding, epoxy glue and glass. I have original, but will add one from Laser II later. Am turboing this Kite a bit, with foil rudder and rig from Force 5 to compliment original equip. Why not?

All the foam should go per Clark above, and I agree. ]

I will be cutting 4 access ports in deck sides and maybe adding some bundled pool noodles instead of foam, which gets water logged.

The soft spots may only be areas where the matrix has broken down. Mine are flex areas behind and either side of dagger slot. I thought they were flat spots, but now believe them to be designed and am reinforcing with thin glass and epoxy down center of hull/stem.

Will post pix later.

The big job will be separating hull and deck. Am using multi tool to dig out the poly in the deckjoint and will see how effective that might be. Very tedious work. I will clean and reinforce fastener backings and add a tow ring forward and reinforce dagger board aft section abeam with some carbon and epoxy...some paint and name and that is it.

Maybe Kite sailor can detail what needed further separation as he popped off his deck, like dagger trunk etc?

[kite sailor]

Hey all,

Well this past weekend our goal was accomplished! We even toasted with "Lime-in-de-coconut" cocktails. What a triumph, she actually sailed.

She arrived around 10 Friday morning and we thought we'd be in the water by noon and cruising, but alas it was not meant to be. We had forgotten one very critical measurement throughout the entire time we were restoring. After all our hard work the daggerboard was too thick for the well now.... to quote Homer Simpson, "Dohh!" Let this be a lesson to all others who are waiting for their day to fly in their own restored craft, make sure everything fits along the way.

So my dad and I set out to do the only thing we could think to do. We got out the hand drill and the circular sander, we didn't have a belt, and he took the first shift of the slow grinding process of fairing the board down to size, and I went off to get the varnish we would need once we got the extra inches off the waistline. It took the better part of the day trading shifts including some hand sanding luckily the board is mahogany so it is soft, but we got it down to size. And at that point I was glad we did not have the original dagger, since it would have been covered in glass and would've required an altogether different approach to its downsizing.

That night and the next day we waited as several layers of varnish dried, and yes we lightly sanded in between 220 grade. We were heavy with anticipation. By the way, anyone who might be refinishing a dagger should make a note that hanging it from the ceiling allows one to finish both sides simultaneously, good to know.

Finally, the next day, Sunday, we were ready to sail her. The wind was a gusty one from the west, so for us that meant a land breeze. So we were sure to expect turbulence, and shifts. We started of great both myself and Dad in the boat and we were at sea for less than 15 min when a shift of about 90 degrees had us over on our side. We were both ok and we righted her and were very pleased that even on her side she floated so much higher that she had hardly any water in the cockpit once upright. This was an accomplishment for before the restoration she would be nearly swamped after a knockdown.

We continued to sail for the next couple of hours and even capsized a 2nd time, but righted and kept on. She is so much more nimble than before...I believe it will take the better part of the remainder of the season to master her again, but that will be a great joy. And by 2011 I hope to take her 'round the north horn of Boston Harbor.

Enjoy the pics and thanks for all your help and advice.

[kite sailor]

More from the little red kite's maiden voyage

[Doug Lord]

Congratulations-have fun!

[BobBill]

Nice! Am green with envy...

I note that you hung a different rudder on it...is it a Laser tip up?

[catenahalf]

Here are some photos of my Kite project.
The red kite is one I bought from a boat auction. Shown is my attempt at separating the deck from the internal stiffener.

The internal shot is of the bonding found around the mast step socket and the bow shelf. This stuff is so strong that I can't break it apart.

While I was unsure what to do next I found a local guy selling a blue one on craigslist. Unfortunately, he broke the mast transporting it with the mast up (???!!)
I do have both pieces, thankfully. This hull is much more sound than the red one, and one that needs no stiffening. Although the deck has some soft spots, which, if I get aggressive about it, I'll stiffen on the deck surface. I'd be curious if anyone has built some vacuumed glass sheets with a non-skid pattern pressed into them.

As you can see with the blue one, I have traded a soft hull for one with serious gelcoat issues. Looks like it sat in the water waaaay too long, and some standing water in the cockpit has caused same damage.

The bottom shot is the extent of the gelcoat removal on the port side.

Boy, that is a beautiful restore Kitesailor! My daughters want me to paint ours red and name it "Radio Flyer". Now I see how nice it could look! What did you paint it with?

[kite sailor]

BobBill, the rudder is original, it was an option when ordered from what I can find. Its mentioned in the revised wikki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite_%28sailboat%29) which is a bunch better than it was. I think I might get a good shot of ours and replace the pic that there, since the rig in that pic is wrong.

Catenahalf, the paint both the hull and deck are from West Marine's Perfection line Perfection Rochelle Red (http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/17002-perfection-rochelle-red-qt.html). By the way I now get your username after seeing your pics, I am envious you have two regardless of condition. I couldn't find any prefab molded grip surface that wasn't vinyl tape like stuff, so we used a grip additive in the paint, works well too. Too bad about your mast, and don't give up trying to get that red one apart. Try using some commercial adhesive removers. We had some areas where it softened things up a bit, one we used came in a airisol can... Blaster PB or AC something like that, designed to remove stickers and decals took a whole can to get thru a tough spot on the transom but it eventually softened it. If you can find a wooden boat builder anywhere close to you (they do exist though few and far between) contact him you'll likely find help for your mast. A few years ago I had a good case of rot in the foot of my mast it had begun to split straight through, my dad found a wooden boat guy in Marble Head and we took the mast to him and now it looks as though nothing ever happened. I realize rot and a complete break are not the same, but you might find a way to save it.

[BobBill]

Thanks for the info. That option was a rare one but not as rare as the oar lock option.

If you get some time, could you measure your rudder blade and PM me or post here? I have a Laser II rudder assembly and before I add length or width, I would like to have some idea of what to do.

I have finally determined how I will split the hull and deck on this boat. I took out all the poly used to fasten the two units and learned that the poly on this boat extends a bit over the hull. That will require cutting into the hull a little bit at an angle in order to maintain the deck lip or outer edge.

I figure it would not be a big deal to rebuild that area with glass and epoxy. The only area at this point that will be tricky is the stern. That will require removal of the deck lip as the bond area is too thin to insert or separate. Then of course, the wood in the stern will have to be replaced, am sure.

Any ideas, would appreciate the advice.

Here are pics of Kites owned by John out in southern CA, aka "Smart Like Tractor." He is on here and Sailing Anarchy. He now has three of them. I visited him when out in SD area to pick up my boat and he had two nice Kite's then. Nice boats...The beached one belongs to another fellow who found it in the shape pictured.

BTW, a mast runs about $1000 so even though mine is okay, I bought a used aluminum mast and boom set for a Force Five which will fit into the Kite mast step with some minor alterations. The sail will be a new Laser practice sail, cheap and near the same size, that will fit easily.

I was the one who edited the Wiki info on the Kite, and you are correct, the boat pictured is not rigged as orig Kite. I was going to put up a copy of the advert from Newport, but cannot figure out how to get it up on Wiki, with all their copyright demands. The pic is shown earlier on this thread, I think, so if you can rip it and put it up, go for it. It is so old as to be public domain now. If you need copy will send.

If you could post pics of dagger board you made and measurements as well as rudder, it will help others and I will be posting pics of my refurbishing and the aluminum rig as well, so others can benefit.

Thanks for the help and information on the rudder also.

BTW, my Kite has been named "Cat Pause."

[BobBill]

Class logo from full size scan, can be any color.

[BobBill]

If you wonder why a fine boat goes extinct like the Kite, you have to look at the builder.

This little boat got tossed about by corporations in the 70s, when the market and the nation in general was down (Reagan, inflation and so on) and these companies compromised construction.

For example, my little boat ended up with stainless steel rub rails, instead of teak, and pop rivets, instead of screws, to hold the rail and deck.

And this boat ended up with cut styrofoam strips tossed into hull for flotation, loose, so it moves around.

Compromise quality and what do you get, besides bankruptcy?

I will post pics when I remove deck. It is sad.

I might add, that from what I note on the three or four boats that have been restored, all of the others pictured and elsewhere due to age, if nothing else, need to have the flotation removed and undergo a bit of restoration to bring them back to being a lively dinghy, as Carter Pyle designed them and Newport built them to be on the water.

[BobBill]

For the interested...circa 1967

[BobBill]

Kite Sailor,

Been thinking about rudder and about your capsizes...if your dagger board is not same surface area as original it may be cause of flips and some unnecessary side slip...I will measure my dagger board surfaces, to note square inches of surface and post. Will do same for my second rudder before I add to surface area. If close, will do nothing until I try it out.

I figure if the surface areas are equal, the effect should be similar...

Have epoxied/glassed the hull bottom and am now about to be splitting hull. To clean and prep.

Am also adding easily removable thwart seat and oar lock unit that will fit into the dagger board slot with short extension for stability (next year) and close slot in that config.

Will post pics shortly.

[BobBill]

Pics here.

It seems most of these little boats will not yield easy separation of the deck hull components that Kite Sailor experienced, unless the boat was one of the older series and/or abused and worked on...it seems later boats, mine is a 73, are well glued at bow and stern sections and along the interior stiffeners.

The wood in the stern may or may not be soft. In my case, boat interior was clean, single transom wood is like new...

If transom wood is soft and the stern is glued tight to hull at drain area, you have two choices: drill many holes and inject Git-Rot or similar epoxy based cure into wood. It will work, if you take time, dry it well and do it right. It is tedious task. But if wood is powder, then you can remove outside of transom glass enough to remove and replace that wood and glass over, adding stringers, of wood strips or pipe insulation wrapped in glass and epoxied, stuffed appropriately on each side and thin plastic backer for finish glass laminate. I once repaired an 8 foot wide transom on old PowerCat that had rotten core with Git Rot and many many holed, then epoxied it solid and glassed...perfect repair.

In my case, the maker did not install wood athwart stern, so I am adding.

Pics should explain much. Desc info as you mouse over should show somewhere.

I separated deck/hull seam with Craftsman Multi-tool with the narrow and small, fine/modeling saws. That step may be avoided, but it does offer a way to see the interior and be sure all the foam or whatever is removed. It will add cloth and reattach when interior dry and vacuumed.

The old flotation was tossed, and "Pool Noodles" to replace...four will float 1000 plus lbs.

[jamtans]

I have a Newport Kite (refurfishing it) in Honolulu now. Just bought all the parts off or a derelict Kite a few months ago - so there are two that I know of in Hawaii. Anyone else out here with a Kite? 808 551-9520 (jamtans). Posted Jan 11.