examples of (classed) yachts using bladder tanks

[expedition]

We plan to use bladder tanks to store jet fuel. We have a rather compact area available and in order to create the required coffferdam space and make it inspectable, bladder tanks are the solutin.

I was told by a L/R surveyor that it's not uncommon to use bladder fuel tanks, especially on GRP.

One of the main concerns for L/R is that the tank maintains its shape regardless of how full it is so the connections to the tank can be fixed (versus some kind of flexible hose configuration.

I've already been told about materials that can be used to accomplish this and can be removed (remember, the bladder tank must be removed to inspect the surrounding cofferdam space) but I wonder if anybody here knows of yachts using bladder tanks which can eventually lead me to some manufacturers that have experience with this kind of (custom) setups.

Thorwald

[apex1]

There have been several systems around in the 80ies (Vetus sold one too) but I could´nt find one left when I searched one year ago.
I would like to have such system too (and the cofferdam), but had no success by so far.
Partially filling is the problem with all the systems I found.

Let me know when you find one.

Regards
Richard

[wardd]

perhaps rubber boat makers?

[expedition]

Hi Ward, Richard,

It's not so much the tank material. There are plenty of bladder fuel tank fuel manufacturers but none list any specific expertise with ships and none is certified by any class society.

That's OK. They will simply have to be tested against leaks which is not a problem. The issue is keeping the tank from collapsing when it's empty.

I've been pointed to these people and this application - http://www.crestfoam.com/news14.html - and am waiting for their reply.

The material is called: "Explosion Suppressant Foam" and if you Google it, you find more websites like this one here http://www.customfoams.co.uk/cf/content/products/esf.htm although they are using the material produced by Crestfoam.

Seems like something that could work.

Thorwald

[apex1]

That's OK. They will simply have to be tested against leaks which is not a problem. The issue is keeping the tank from collapsing when it's empty.

The material is called: "Explosion Suppressant Foam" and if you Google it, you find more websites like this one here http://www.customfoams.co.uk/cf/content/products/esf.htm although they are using the material produced by Crestfoam.Thorwald

Hi Thorwald,
I´m completely confused now. Collapsing is what the tank has to do! (Not the cofferdam, I hope). That is the only advantage I can see, no need for baffles in a conventional metal built space (tank). Just one or two "liners" inside the tank and tere is no free surface to cope with.
The foam stuff would make it impossible to inspect the tank space inside!?

[wardd]

in aircraft the bladders are laced to the structure to keep their shape

unlaced to remove

[expedition]

No Richard,

L/R does NOT want the tanks to collapse when emptied because they don't like the concept of flexible hoses to connect the ventilation and fuel filling piping.

So using this foam material we should make pieces that can be located inside the tank to keep it up while still be removable. Basically combination of colums and beams made from foam, held in place by some place holders made from the same bladder tank material.

[apex1]

Yes, yes, I know that is the prob! They do´nt like all the wishy washy stuff. And for some understandable reason, that did wear out soon and unpredictable.
But now I´ve got the idea with the foam, sounds possible. But cost? We are talking quite several m³ in both of our vessels.

Btw. where did you end with your cost calculations? I assume we both came to the same result?

Richard

[expedition]

Well, we're talking about 3 m3 per tank so it's not like huge. Of course, I have no clue yet how expensive this material is but we probably don't have to fill the tank completely.

Say a flat 'ceiling' part supported by 6 40x40 cm 'columns' might do the trick but that's something we'll have to calculate.

At any case, an interesting "problem" to solve.

Thorwald

[apex1]

Well, we're talking about 3 m3 per tank so it's not like huge. Of course, I have no clue yet how expensive this material is but we probably don't have to fill the tank completely.

Say a flat 'ceiling' part supported by 6 40x40 cm 'columns' might do the trick but that's something we'll have to calculate.

At any case, an interesting "problem" to solve.

Thorwald

Hmm, I thought maybe it would do, having the foam just covering the baffle cutouts (large ones like manholes). And I plan to have some 16m³ tank in a cofferdam.

[wardd]

they solved the problem in aircraft decades ago

[apex1]

they solved the problem in aircraft decades ago

No they did´nt! Have you ever seen a aircraft tank serviced? Did you notice the size of the gnome doing it?

[wardd]

yes and i have done it
i would refer you to the ch-47 fuel nacelles as one example of an attached bladder

[apex1]

Whats that wardd?
It would be really a great help to find a proven solution.

[baeckmo]

L/R does NOT want the tanks to collapse when emptied because they don't like the concept of flexible hoses to connect the ventilation and fuel filling piping.

Excellent example of a brain saltomortale! Ever emptied a box of wine, gentlemen? The collapsible bladder tank does NOT use any venting! The vent is to the cofferdam volume, and the filling/emptying of the bladder is via a fixed bottom manifold.

The problem of sloshing is still there, unless you use multiple bags, each in its own stiffened cell, and connected to the bottom manifold.

[apex1]

The "ventilation" I have overlooked! Hence my comment that of course they "have to" collapse. And yes I thought about multiple bags or liners as I named them, what else?

[baeckmo]

........... what else?

Neee Apex, not much, you summed it up pretty clearly. My comment was more towards the blue noses of the LR, who were inclined to reject the collapsing bladder, based on a "nonunderstanding" of the working principles. One of the main features of the bladder is the total absence of vented fuel fumes from a fuel storage!

[wardd]

volume could be replaced by water to maintain trim

ala, old diesel subs

[apex1]

volume could be replaced by water to maintain trim

ala, old diesel subs

That was,nt uncommon, but as Thorwald said, it is hard to find that stuff today. And according to his experience it seems some classification bodies do´nt like it anymore.

[expedition]

Nada de salto mortale !!

We are using a bladder tank NOT because we want a non-venting tank but because we need a flexible tank we can put inside another tank through a manhole. This creates a cofferdam equivalent class is looking for.

Bladder tanks happen to fullfill that need.

So of course for this particular application where they are not allowed to collapse, we need to add a venting connection (not to the cofferdam of course). It is exactly this connection (and that of the fuel piping) that class wants fixed which in turn requires it's not collapsible.

I hope it's clear now.

Have a look at my post at http://www.expeditionyacht.org/safety/jet-fuel-in-bladder-tank - maybe that clarifies it.

[expedition]

Ohh, and mr. baeckmo,

There is no sloshing issue when you use fire surpressant material.

See this video if you don't believe me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naPuwNXLUwg&feature=player_embedded

Thorwald

[TeddyDiver]

So Thorwald to be precise, what you want is a liner in your tank, not a bladder tank.
That fire-supressant-material seems to be enough to take care of the non-collapse issue as well..

[expedition]

Well, all liner applications I have seen do just that: they line anothe surface to seal it and make it leak proof and are usually open on the top. I need a real tank, a tank that collapses. And we need air around the tank to created the cofferdam function.

So I'd call it a bladder tank. Just because we put a vent on it doesn't make it a liner.

No manufacturer I have contacted so far told me 'ahh, you're talking about a liner'.

Anyway, I'm just happy I found a solution that can be approved by class :-).

[apex1]

Anyway, I'm just happy I found a solution that can be approved by class :-).

Which one now, Thorwald?

[Yellowjacket]

Look at ATL fuel cells. They have a marine product that is what you are looking for.

Take a look here... http://www.atlinc.com/marine.html

[apex1]

Yeah, thats the stuff we need! It seems they have no difficulties to pass the class survey.

Thank you Yellow.

[baeckmo]

Nada de salto mortale !!

We are using a bladder tank NOT because we want a non-venting tank but because we need a flexible tank we can put inside another tank through a manhole. This creates a cofferdam equivalent class is looking for.

Bladder tanks happen to fullfill that need.

So of course for this particular application where they are not allowed to collapse, we need to add a venting connection (not to the cofferdam of course). It is exactly this connection (and that of the fuel piping) that class wants fixed which in turn requires it's not collapsible.

I hope it's clear now.

Have a look at my post at http://www.expeditionyacht.org/safety/jet-fuel-in-bladder-tank - maybe that clarifies it.

Guess we have a question of definition here, to me a "bladder tank" is just that, a bladder. By definition collapsible and without venting and perfect to fit into a closed structure. In my book your arrangement is a liner, and as such in need of a vent. My finger was pointing towards one-eyed rules that have no provision for new thinking. I was not stepping on your toe here (at least not intentionally)!!!!

[TeddyDiver]

ATL seems to call that a "fuel cell"