Beginner requires help

[ENG Student]

Hello All,
Allow me to introduce myself. I am George Haritos, I am student of Automotive Engineering at the University of Hertfordshire, UK, and i am in a bit of trouble.
For my individual major project i have been set the task of designing a boat which runs solely on wind and solar energy. I know enough about designing the wind and solar system but i must confess being a true petrol head my knowledge of boats and boat design is extreemly limited.
After browsing the forum for a while i have found a few good threads, however, these go into depth where i must admit i get confused.

Are there any threads (or even books or websites) anyone can advise for beginner?

Any help would be much appreciated

[Ad Hoc]

Surely your project is about the "green" energy and how to convert this to useful power, rather than boat design per se?

If so, all you need to do, is demonstrate how much energy you can get from 'green' resources and compare this to existing power units and boats.

The design of the boat and how fast it goes etc, is almost irrelevant. The way you covert renewable 'free' energy into useful power is not, that is your projects thrust.

[ENG Student]

Thank you for your reply Ad Hoc,
The project is actually a design project in which i will be using CATIA V5 to design the boat. I will also need to do some CFD analysis to determine the max drag, size of the wake, to finally determine the motor to be chosen.
It is an 8month project so as expected there is a considerable amount of work.

I am surprised at the lack of guidance from you guys on this forum. Being a keen member of the Nissan 200sx owners club, our forum is always advising and guiding newbs on any issues they have relating to their vehicle.

[marshmat]

Heya George, welcome aboard :)

I am surprised at the lack of guidance from you guys on this forum. Being a keen member of the Nissan 200sx owners club, our forum is always advising and guiding newbs on any issues they have relating to their vehicle. Ours is usually that way too. But there are a lot of new threads, and many of us are pretty busy types who are only online every few days. So don't be offended if it's a slow start.

The project is actually a design project in which i will be using CATIA V5 to design the boat. I will also need to do some CFD analysis to determine the max drag, size of the wake, to finally determine the motor to be chosen.
It is an 8month project so as expected there is a considerable amount of work.
Yup, sounds like something the eng profs would dream up. "You shall use xxx software package" because the software supplier wants evidence that his academic licence is being put to good use. "You shall use CFD" because, well, it's trendy, never mind that it's also not much use for your project, because the kinds of hull shapes that would make sense for you are all very well documented from 100 years of real-world full-scale testing.

I've been through all that- just finished engineering school recently myself- and I'm only now starting to figure out that we were doing it all backwards. You don't start by saying:
"I want to design a windmill-powered boat in Catia" (which is what usually happens in school).
Better to start with something like:
"I want to design a boat to carry 4 people in comfort for month-long ocean cruises, with minimal dependence on external support".
Or, in your case, perhaps:
"I want to determine what sort of boats, in what kind of service, could make economic use of wind and/or solar power systems and which boats could not".

Simply coming up with a boat that uses wind and solar power is not terribly difficult: Take any old sailboat, replace its diesel with an electric motor, cover every available space with solar panels, add big battery.

Coming up with one that suits a particular use- and you do have to define the requirements and intended use before you can begin drawing- and does so economically, now that's a challenge worthy of an engineer.


edit- Oh, right, and you asked about books. Larsson / Eliasson "Principles of Yacht Design" is a pretty nice, modern introduction to the field at a level that will be quite straightforward to an engineering undergrad. Your library might have the popular SNAME reference set "Principles of Naval Architecture", it's a bit pricey for a student though. Skene's "Elements of Yacht Design" is a bit outdated but still interesting. There are easily several dozen more "must read" books for the dedicated boat design addict, a bit of poking at the forum's "Advanced Search" menu will turn up many more opinions.

[hoytedow]

ENG Student, you should visit this thread: Windmill or Wind Turbine- powered boats: how many are out there, and are they viable?

[Ad Hoc]

ENG Student

Matt summed up pretty well the main issues from your response. A project, with such a title, is totally meaningless really, for the reasons all ready mentioned.

Since to 'design' a boat requires you to be a naval architectural student. If you are not, nor is your course, you shall never be able to fully appreciate why certain things are done in a particular way. Only because time does not permit the further research required into all things 'naval architecture'.

The brief you gave in your first post is contrary to your second. The first being the use of "green energy" for a boat. But your second post, "designing" a boat with CFD, software etc.

Hence in order for any to advise you better, you really need to establish what is the main thrust, ie what your tutors/prof's are expecting you to produce and why. You can't do both, if you are an automotive student.

Just as i couldn't, when i was a student, design an engine and all the internals beyond the basics, I designed boats not engines!

In short, your project is interesting, but you appear to ahve two separate and contrary topics. If you wish to fuse them into one, you have a mountain to climb and will end up a mess, given the short time scales you have (yes 8 months is short for what you are trying to achieve as a student).

To paraphrase Matt you really need to:

"..Simply coming up with a boat that uses wind and solar power is not terribly difficult: Take any old sailboat, replace its diesel with an electric motor, cover every available space with solar panels, add big battery.

Coming up with one that suits a particular use- and you do have to define the requirements and intended use before you can begin drawing- and does so economically, now that's a challenge worthy of an engineer..."

[hoytedow]

Please remember one very basic truth; Without solar energy, there would be no wind. Therefore, sailboats run on solar energy.

[pistnbroke]

If you are an automobile student what are you pissing about with boats for ??? As a former senior lecturer in automoblile engineering for 30 years I never once thought of boats in connection to my students ....Why are you not designing a solar powered vehicle etc ....give your lecturer a belt round the head from me ....

[gonzo]

If you want to build an efficient "wind powered boat" aka sailboat, just pick up a naval architecture book or a book of designs. It is nothing new, only the trendy terminology is. The design will be restricted by the area of operation. Something an automotive engineering proffesor probably knows nothing about. If you are designing a solar powered machine to operate somewhere in high latitudes with several months of dark, it can only be for non essential uses. The wind power would be great in places that wind is available, if you are in the doldrums area, solar should be the prime source.

[marshmat]

Since to 'design' a boat requires you to be a naval architectural student. If you are not, nor is your course, you shall never be able to fully appreciate why certain things are done in a particular way. Only because time does not permit the further research required into all things 'naval architecture'.
I was about to take issue with the first part of this statement.... as usual, though, reading the whole thing makes more sense.

I'm not a naval architect- I'm an engineering physicist. And, at present, my research work is in medical imaging and radiotherapy. At the same time, though, while I'm not formally a naval architecture student, I do consider myself to be a student of naval architecture- I buy books, I read them, I try to make use of the concepts that are presented, and I hassle people who know more than I do to see if I'm understanding things properly. The thing is, I've been doing this for about ten years, and only within the last two have I felt confident enough to try putting together a simple, complete design, from scratch, to match my own requirements. It will be another decade or so, at this pace, before I'll be ready to take on a seriously large, complex yacht design project.

If you want to tackle the design of a boat, from first principles, from scratch- well, there just isn't enough time in an 8-month term to learn it all, not with all your other work and classes going on. So sit down and figure out what aspects you want to focus on. Maybe the electric system is the big thing (after all, that's an aspect that translates easily to cars- there is about to be some serious demand for inexpensive, 90%+ efficiency electric drive systems in the 10-100 kW range). Or maybe you can come up with some defined purpose and use profile, and see if you can outline a complete design to suit it. Sit down with your prof and figure out what (s)he is hoping you'll learn from this exercise.

[gonzo]

I agree with Marshmat. Narrowing the scope of the project will help you. Often, if you just come up with a common sense answer it will not work. They may be looking for a "concept design". The hull alone can take a year. Consider what a team of designers spend on one race boat. There are considerations that will set limits to the design. For example, amount of cargo, crew capacity, lenght of passages, draft, docking constraints, weather in the area of operation, legal requirements, aesthetic needs, minimum speed, construction materials and budget to name a few. A chart or spreadsheet work well for the initial part of your project. This is the same as any other design. It will let you see what things are and are not acceptable. From there you can choose among the acceptable ones to start a design.

[Ad Hoc]

Matt

I've been a naval architect for 20~25 years (depending if one considers the time at uni being a student too), and I'm still learning. There is always plenty to learn. The basics, whilst seem "easy" when minute aspects are taken, often out of context, on forums such as this, it does not do enough justice to the significant learning curve one goes through (as a naval architect) in understanding and acquiring the "basics" to design a boat. This is not meant in a patronising manner; it is true of any profession. It took me almost 10 years of uni and training and continuing education etc to become "fully qualified" to be a "professional" and chartered and member of international institutions etc etc. This doesn't happen in 8 months!

Unfortunately, softwares tend to compress this learning curve, only into fooling the user that compressing the computation time also compresses the learning "time" and required comprehension too.

Going back to the thread, George, you really need to look at your syllabus, your course objectives and the deliverables. Then having read and digested that, chat with your Prof's if you're unsure of the direction and depth that your thesis/project must take.

Since, learning how to use software is ostensibly "child's" play and not worthy of a degree thesis, save for how the algorithms work and why. The end results, in these cases, is irrelevant!

[ENG Student]

If you are an automobile student what are you pissing about with boats for ??? As a former senior lecturer in automoblile engineering for 30 years I never once thought of boats in connection to my students ....Why are you not designing a solar powered vehicle etc ....give your lecturer a belt round the head from me ....

LOL God only knows...My inital Project was to design a folding bicycle...
i guess the basic design principles are the same but applying them to different environments.

In terms of the depth of the project i will be assessed, NOT on the design itself, but on how well the design process was implemented, analysis, system calculations etc.

So far i have set out the following tasks

Background Research
Feasibility Study
Technical Spec
Concepts Generation
Concept selection process
Accurate Design Layout
System and Detailed Design Calculations
Structural and CFD Evaluation
FMEA And Risk Analysis
Component Drawings
Assembly Drawings

My project focus will be on the Solar/Wind System, but i still need to know the basics of boat design. Ive just requested "Principles of Yacht Design" and am looking at the "Principles of naval architecture" as we speak...i can tell ive got a hell of a lot to decipher LOL

In terms of the type of boat, i have decieded to design a replacement for a pedal boat, so not really that complicated, i hope.

Another question i'd like to ask.

For the Electric drive i need to assess:

1. Hull Drag
2. Mechanical Losses
3. Propellor Efficiency
4. Cruising Speed and Power required
5. Range
6. Battery type and Number of batteries

Are there any other major factors effecting the system drive which need to be considered?

[hoytedow]

AWL drag.

[Ad Hoc]

If you can "do what you like" so long as it satisfies their "..on how well the design process was implemented..", then do the bike!...or as Piston suggested, a solar powered car!

[marshmat]

A solar car isn't going to be any simpler or easier than a boat. (I've worked on three of them.) Although it may be a bit more applicable to your automotive degree.

You see, George, the steps you outlined in post #13 are pretty much what one would do for a car. You're given a design brief by Marketing: "We want something a bit smaller than our SUVs, with more room than our sedan, seats five plus baggage, and more driver-oriented than our van." All cars operate in pretty much the same environment under the same conditions, the only difference is what you carry in them and how you want it to feel to the driver.

With boats, though, you have to clarify your requirements at the background research stage. If your boat's mission is to convey tourists along the Thames, almost everything about the design will be completely unlike what you'd get if it's meant to carry fishermen into the Atlantic.

The conceptual design of a boat is a doable project in 8 months, if you're a quick study, but there's just no way to get a full design right down to assembly drawings in this timeframe as an undergrad. Sit down, now, and figure out how far you want to take this. You may find it prudent to just forget about some aspects of the project altogether, and focus on a few key aspects of it.

[Ad Hoc]

Matt

Well said.

I am currently advising another undergraduate, whom is in a similar position. At least his degree is in yatch & boat surveying. But his project is also the design and detailed structure of a boat. The course doesn't teach structural design, to the level required of a naval architect nor other aspects. So it begs the question, what is it you have been asked to do, that is really applicable to you and your course and more importantly, the course syllabus and content for the project!

I used to advised and marked undergraduate thesis/projects for a number of years way back. The common theme is that students want to run before they can walk. Very few can. Hence find a topic that really interests you, at least you'll enjoy "doing" it, rather than slaving over it just to get a degree.

[Rick Willoughby]

Hello All,
Allow me to introduce myself. I am George Haritos, I am student of Automotive Engineering at the University of Hertfordshire, UK, and i am in a bit of trouble.
For my individual major project i have been set the task of designing a boat which runs solely on wind and solar energy. I know enough about designing the wind and solar system but i must confess being a true petrol head my knowledge of boats and boat design is extreemly limited.
After browsing the forum for a while i have found a few good threads, however, these go into depth where i must admit i get confused.

Are there any threads (or even books or websites) anyone can advise for beginner?

Any help would be much appreciated

George
I have been working on a similar project for a zero fuel coastal cruising boat.

There are a few variations of the concept around. This is the latest I have posted on this forum:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/15019/size/big/cat//ppuser/18624
This is based on a stabilised monohull. This hull configuration gives adequate stability while having the low drag advantage of a long slender hull. There is some discussion of this concept here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/trimaran-motorboat-stabilized-monohull-29665-2.html

I have established most of the parameters needed to execute this design. This video shows testing of my turbine in a mechanical drive in light wind:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/projects-proposals/35522d1254144861-windmill-wind-turbine-powered-boats-how-many-out-there-they-viable-v11_turbine3.wmv
The boat in the video is also a stabilised monohull but the surface skimming outriggers are mounted outboard rather than being combined with the main hull.

For determining hull drag you should read up on Michlet/GODZILLA. It will be faster and give better results that CFD. If the CFD is a requirement then use it to verify what GODZILLA produces.

For propellers you will get good results from JavaProp. It is more flexible than being constrained by empirical curves for standard boat props. You should be able to get prop efficiencies around 90%. There is some useful prop comparison data here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/efficient-electric-boat-27996-17.html

I have not found any readily available software for designing turbines. I have my own and can help you with this if you want. The first step is to realise that land based turbines are designed for high power coefficient whereas you will be more interested in maximising turbine efficiency.

I have done some testing on various electric motors. This video shows a Mars motor test in an outboard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ul6hDx1L50
The little batteries limited power to about 260W but the motor has a continuous rating of 4.5kW and peak of 9kW. A lot of power when you are considering a long, slender displacement hull.

Lithium batteries are really the enabler for this concept. I have posted some links here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/projects-proposals/battery-electric-lithium-choices-29450.html

To get started you need to decide what the boat should carry and where it will operate. In the first iteration you will need to have some idea of the total displacement and what speed you would like to achieve.

At small scale you really need to consider composite sandwich panel construction. If you are required to do FEA on the structure then you need ability to handle anisotropic materials. Aluminium would be tolerable for a larger scale craft.

Sunpower panels are the most suitable panels I have found:
http://us.sunpowercorp.com/residential/products-services/products/panels.php
You could look for better packaged one-off panels but they will be expensive. You have to decide on things like tracking for the panels.

You should investigate MPPT controllers for both the panels and the turbine. This is also enabling technology.

Rick W