Amateur wants to build Blue water multi hull cruiser

[nickvonw]

gday,

so im going to keep what is an incredibly complicated question as easy as possible..

A group of consisting of myself and possibly 2-3 others are considering building a boat..

the purpose of the boat would be blue water cruising, to start the south pacific, z and NZ and then possibly up to indonesia.....

the boat would need to comfortably accommodate 3-4 couple plus a few spar bunks for other friends..

luxury is not a priority but a toilet and a shower is a must as is cold beer.. we are on somewhat of a budget but obviously still want a sound bluewater crusier......so luxury and general fit and finish arent of th highesrt importance..get the boat to float and get us there safely is the general idea

the vessel would be designed to give access to remote surfing, diving and areas and be comfortable at sea foe a at least 10 days at a time, if not longer.. The prime purpose of he boat would be for these activities sailing is not a must but would be a nice bonus...

so i would like to ask all u mutli hull enthusiasts and experts on what u would reccommend to build and how and how much it would cost and how long it would take.....all important questions in the grand scheme of things

these a re a few ideas we have come up with

to build a 50-60 foot cat out of plywood and epoxy (no sure of the specific method yet), with between 2x 40-60hp diesel inboards, 4 double berths and a couple extra bunks in the layout...would it be possible to build it as a sailing crusier (keep fuel consumption nice low) but not fit the rigging, if the cost is too much of an initial outlay.....but then have as on option to retrofit the rig later on....would the hull shape of a sailing cruising cat be seaworthy and comfortable without its rig ( i have heard this doesnt work well with monohulls)...we would build it in a shed somewhere in OZ with atleast 4 fulltime handy blokes working on it, with some experience in general boating and general boating maintenance and carpentry skills....

anyway that si the idea that we have if anyone would like to comment on our ideas any impout would be greatly appreciated

cheers

Nick

[Fanie]

Hi Nick,

Welcome to the forum. Building a boat is always a good idea, but the first step really is to see a lunie doc and have yourself declared as such. Normal people does not succeed, it is a lot of work amongst other things.

I suggest you look for some plans to buy once you have it figgered.

You say you're kind of on a budget... but you talk about a 50 - 60 footer. I think you must define budget first. Those size boats, the ones that actually float calls for a stiff budget.

[gonzo]

Shower and cold beer are luxuries. You will need a generator or run one of the main engines half the time or more. With U$150.000 you may buy the basic materials. Then you will need a huge shed or building for the project. With proffesionals working full time it can be done in eight months.

[bill broome]

learn to like air-cooled red wine.

don't build. buy an old cat an spend some time and money on paint and sails.

this 'plan' is a disaster, with endless chances for falling apart with a half-built boat decaying in a paddock. pool the money, and buy. once on the water, enthusiasm likely to remain. good luck, either way!

[Alan M.]

Sounds like the boat I am building would meet your needs: http://www.hostmybb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=254&mforum=easy

Cost will be around AU $175k, and 5000 hours. And it certainly could be built faster and cheaper.

Having as many as 4 guys working would speed some jobs up to a huge extent. For instance feeding cables takes ages on your own, would take a few minutes with some help.

[nickvonw]

thanks everyone for the comments,

yeah the challenge of building it from scratch is what appeals to me the most..the unknown of buying an older boat doesnt....and the fact that we want a pretty specific design/layout makes building it ourselves make more sense...

to answe a few questions the budget is prob round 175-200 k AUD...and we want it to be liveable for long periods at sea..

Alan, what is the kit u are using???

cheers nick

[Luckless]

Why can't you use a drop line for chilled beer? Build a special cage for your brew with a temp gauge, and lower over the side till you find water cold enough? Design it like a submersing tow fish.

[apex1]

Hi Nick,
this:
to build a 50-60 foot cat out of plywood and epoxy (no sure of the specific method yet), with between 2x 40-60hp diesel inboards, 4 double berths and a couple extra bunks in the layout...would it be possible to build it as a sailing crusier (keep fuel consumption nice low) but not fit the rigging, if the cost is too much of an initial outlay.....but then have as on option to retrofit the rig later on....would the hull shape of a sailing cruising cat be seaworthy and comfortable without its rig
and that:

to answe a few questions the budget is prob round 175-200 k AUD...and we want it to be liveable for long periods at sea..
cheers nick

does hardly go together!

Do´nt buy the assumptions of ANYONE who did not finish his boat yet, or who promotes his concept! Neither the time frame given, nor the cost estimations are near the truth! Always you end up quite substantially above these figures.
When you have found a plan or kit that fits your needs, look how many of these boats are sailing and try to contact their builders. If there are no finished boats yet, be sceptic. If you have nothing to get your hands on serious information, look for the next mass product, close to your spec.s. The average price of those boats are about what it will cost you to build it yourself.
That may be a bit disappointing now, but better you´re pis.ed now, than being p..ed after loosing 200k and putting a half finished boat up for sale at 25.000! And that is what you´ll get (if you´re happy).

Good luck though
Richard

[Chris Ostlind]

Richard is good at hosing-down an excited audience, isn't he? ;-)

In spite of that bit of comedy, I completely agree with him on this position.

Get your hands on a solidly built used boat that has a lot of potential to be shuffled a bit for your use. Form a relationship with a grounded designer of this size boat. You can get your Building Jones satisfied AND have a boat that can be on the water in very short order.

This size cat is going for fire sale prices right now, due to the global economy and for the things you outlined, is the absolute best way to go.

[Alan M.]

thanks everyone for the comments,

yeah the challenge of building it from scratch is what appeals to me the most..the unknown of buying an older boat doesnt....and the fact that we want a pretty specific design/layout makes building it ourselves make more sense...

to answe a few questions the budget is prob round 175-200 k AUD...and we want it to be liveable for long periods at sea..

Alan, what is the kit u are using???

cheers nick

It's an Oram 44C. http://boboramdesign.wordpress.com/44-c/

Mine is going to fall right into your budget area. Bear in mind though, that I didn't have to rent a space to work in, but only bought a poly tunnel shed. (Which I have now sold to another boat builder)

It's amusing to read all these people saying you can't build a boat as cheaply as you can buy one. I know several people who have built them much cheaper, and who have had boats they built valued at hundreds of thousands of dollars above what they cost.

I'm not far from launching one myself.

[apex1]

Richard is good at hosing-down an excited audience, isn't he? ;-)
In spite of that bit of comedy, .

Comedy hähh? Hosing down ja? You do´nt do it without a dumb dig, no?

[apex1]

It's an Oram 44C. http://boboramdesign.wordpress.com/44-c/

Mine is going to fall right into your budget area. Bear in mind though, that I didn't have to rent a space to work in, but only bought a poly tunnel shed. (Which I have now sold to another boat builder)

It's amusing to read all these people saying you can't build a boat as cheaply as you can buy one. I know several people who have built them much cheaper, and who have had boats they built valued at hundreds of thousands of dollars above what they cost.

I'm not far from launching one myself.

Well, first let me say your boat is less than half the size the thread opener asked for!
Next let me say that I am very glad to entertain you!

Last I like to add, that there are of course boats built well below a off the shelf boat! Not a single one comes out to the same quality AND the same price!

That is just the experience those of us made, who are in this market for some decades.

It might well be that your experience differs, of course! But your last statement is nothing but a dream, or better, a lie!

Regards
Richard

[Alan M.]

But your last statement is nothing but a dream, or better, a lie!

Regards
Richard

So you're saying that this doesn't exist?

http://i34.tinypic.com/ezh3x4.jpg

That I didn't build it? It isn't in my backyard? It's not nearly ready for launching?

You may be a liar, but don't judge others by your own standards.

[apex1]

Whats your problem Alan?

You did a 200.000$ boat for 200.000$ I assume. And then? Did I contradict? I just doubt that you can sell it for several hundreds of thousands above the price! And no amateur ever was able to do so! That is a dream. As a statement it is a lie.

Regards
Richard

[Alan M.]

I don't like people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, calling me a liar.

[apex1]

I don't like people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, calling me a liar.

There Alan, we have one thing in common!:D

[Alan M.]

I'm not calling you a liar. Just ignorant. A 44C recently launched has been insured for over $500,000.00. It cost less than half that, including a hybrid drive system.

Another was destroyed in the storm at Abel point, which wrecked around 60 boats. The insurance payout was about 3 times what the boat had cost to build.

My boat has cost me less than $150,000 so far, including almost all the materials needed to finish the boat and build the rig.

A broker looked at my boat recently and estimated it could sell for around $450,000, more in a better economic climate

If you think you could buy something similar for $200.000, then you're the one dreaming.

There have been tens of Snell Easys which have sold for more than double what the materials cost.

Just because YOU can't do something, doesn't mean others can't.

[Alan M.]

Whats your problem Alan?

You did a 200.000$ boat for 200.000$ I assume. And then? Did I contradict? I just doubt that you can sell it for several hundreds of thousands above the price! And no amateur ever was able to do so! That is a dream. As a statement it is a lie.

Regards
Richard

Actually, since you've edited your post, I retract my last statement. It was wrong. You ARE a liar.

Where did I say SEVERAL hundreds of thousands of dollars more?

And you ASSUME wrong. The boat will cost well under $200k complete, and will be worth over double that.

[DaveJ]

Alan, your taking his busniess away from him, if the average john doe found out how easy it is to build a kit boat, and lets face it, its not rocket science, alot more people would be building there own, which means boat builders lose cleintal.

I accually think that a home builder is going to be more particular in the qualitiy of the build, because it is their boat they are building and want it to be the best. All the engineering is done by the designer so it is simply glue the peices together how the plans state and the boat will be correct. If there are questions you contact the designer, they all are too happy to help.

Oh, btw love your boat, looks great, if you ever need some one to help crew it for you, give me a tingle. I'm looking at building a Cosmos 1100 from schionning.

[DaveJ]

But i do have to point out, just because a boat is valued at a price, doesn't mean it will sell for that price.

[Chris Ostlind]

I don't like people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking abou...




And equally so, devoid of a sense of humor, it would seem. Come-on, Richard, drop the angry German thing and just be a regular guy... please.

[Angélique]

http://i34.tinypic.com/ezh3x4.jpg
Big applause! http://images.zaazu.com/img/000340-large.gif

Of someone who builds this by himself in his backyard can be said ‘‘Fortior est qui se quam qui fortissima vincit Moenia.’’ = ‘‘he who conquers himself is stronger than he who conquers a fortified city.’’



look for the next mass product, close to your spec.s. The average price of those boats are about what it will cost you to build it yourself.
For your info Richard, A $ 150.000 = € 93.007 (http://www.google.com/search?hp&q=150000+AUD+in+EUR)
Your are making a big FOOL http://images.zaazu.com/img/000385-small.gif (http://images.zaazu.com/img/000385-large.gif) out of yourself if you say you can buy a similar mass product for that price! :D

http://images.zaazu.com/img/000272-small.gif (http://images.zaazu.com/img/000272-large.gif) Angélique http://images.zaazu.com/img/000272-small.gif (http://images.zaazu.com/img/000272-large.gif)

[Alan M.]

Well, first let me say your boat is less than half the size the thread opener asked for!


44 feet is less than half of 50 feet? Is this the "New Math"?

[Alan M.]

But i do have to point out, just because a boat is valued at a price, doesn't mean it will sell for that price.

That's very true, but insurers are not usually in the business of dramatically overvalueing boats. It's simply not in their interests to do so.

The real point is, you CAN build yourself a boat for less money than you can buy one for. That should be obvious - proffessional boat builders pay wages, usually have much higher overheads AND make a profit.

[Angélique]

44 feet is less than half of 50 feet? Is this the "New Math"?
Thread opener asked for 50-60 ft (large spread). In volume 44 ft can be less than half the size of 50-60 ft. If it is less than half the size depends on what size Nick eventually wants to build.

Regards, Angélique

[Chris Ostlind]

The real point is, you CAN build yourself a boat for less money than you can buy one for. That should be obvious - professional boat builders pay wages, usually have much higher overheads AND make a profit.




Noting, of course, that it's an apples to oranges comparison. Start to factor in your time at a respectable wage, the cost of the tools used, broken and lost, the overhead for the space to build AND the potential wear and tear on the family unit... and oh, baby, is there ever wear and tear. Just ask around and see how many folks got themselves divorced as a result of taking on a huge boatbuilding project that took longer than they ever expected ... and it's not such big difference.

Remarkably nice, used boats are all over the place and are enormously cheaper and they get you on the water faster.

The only real reason to build your own boat is because you really, really want to. You want the adventure, you want the place in time when you can call it your own effort, etc. These are all highly subjective reasons and are not measurable in a production boat sense.

Hey, I sell plans myself and I'm all for a guy giving it a go in the grandest sense possible.

Best of luck you guys as you push on down the path. I sure hope that you post progress photos on these pages, or set-up your own build blog.

[Alan M.]

Noting, of course, that it's an apples to oranges comparison. Start to factor in your time at a respectable wage....

That's the entire point. You DON'T pay yourself wages.

For a one-off home builder, tools can be very low cost. I didn't buy good quality tools. I bought cheap Chinese crap with good warranties. Two of most things.

When one broke down I'd take another out of it's box and carry on working. When I had the time I'd take the broken down one back to the shop for a free replacement under warranty.

I did all my spraying with about $300 worth of air compressors. All the sanding with about $250 worth of sanders.

If you really want to you can spend a fortune on building your own boat, but it's not neccessary.

[nickvonw]

settle down fellas..

but good to see some passion...do any of you play rugby????

alan you cat looks awesome....well done there is nothing the same as building something youself.. what does that kit cost??? what does it include???

on resale, to be honest i am looking to build this boat as somehting i can use and enjoy as opposed to sell on for a minimal lose...

as for a cheap solid used 50 foot cat what am i looking at???? i have looke don the net and am having trouble finding anything super cheap??? are these boats in OZ????

anyway got a few waves in the the seychelles today so im pretty stoked on that...maybe ill bring my own boat here one day
nick

[nickvonw]

i guess that is it...

if you want to build something urself, and go thru the process and the challenge..building it urself would be a waste of time..and ud probably never finish it either

but if the challenge is attractive then its excting to here from others who have done it themselves

i wonder what they said to Hilary as he set off to scale everest???

and alan yes crap chinses tools do have there place in society.....god bless GMC

[Fanie]

Hi Alan,

How come you're so stingy with pictures of your boat ?

do any of you play rugby????

He he... Do we donate blood ???? No man, we build boats :D

[Angélique]

How come you're so stingy with pictures of your boat ?

I'm not Alan, but Alan already gave the link earlier. 9 pages of report & photos from Wed Sep 26 2007 till to date.



Sounds like the boat I am building would meet your needs: http://www.hostmybb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=254&mforum=easy

http://images.zaazu.com/img/000548-small.gif (http://images.zaazu.com/img/000548-large.gif)Angélique http://images.zaazu.com/img/000548-small.gif (http://images.zaazu.com/img/000548-large.gif)

[Fanie]

Thank you, what's your name again Angélique ?

I'm not Alan

You think I wouln't have noticed eh ? I just seem that daft ;) Yeah I know it's hard to tell.

I've had a look at them pics before. Still the same ones.

So, what kind of an angel are you ?

[apex1]

Actually, since you've edited your post, I retract my last statement. It was wrong. You ARE a liar.

Where did I say SEVERAL hundreds of thousands of dollars more?

And you ASSUME wrong. The boat will cost well under $200k complete, and will be worth over double that.

I did not edit my post.

yes you did not say several! That was twice the plural, I have to excuse. But "hundreds" is already plural, so it is several hundred thousands of dollars! Above the building cost (what ever they are) is, and remains to be, a dream! Set her up for sale, the real world will tell you the real value. And be sure 200k is about the max. you could get.
The value/cost comparison btw. is independant from any economical situation, because in a recession you pay less for your parts too.

Nowhere did I say one could buy a boat of that size for 200k !!! I said you build a boat of that value (at that cost). Which I now doubt, because you obviously like to cheat yourself.
But! Of course at a tad above that figure one can buy a standard mass product of that size!
You like to compare apples and orange I know.

The largest yacht insurers leave it to the customer to set the value of the boat (within plausible limits). And of course they like it to get a higher value insured. (If they pay the higher value after a crash is another issue, one should be familiar with the fineprint, usually not!).
And before we go deeper into that issue I may inform you that I have to insure about 100 vessel per annum and do that with the market leader (whos owner is a friend).

Thank you Angelique to do the exchange rate calculation for me, but no need for false information!!! First I do that daily (or get it done), second, I said 200k not 150!
Third and last, I do´nt need a self elected umpire when he (she) is not impartial.

And my last comment here:

It is always refreshing to see how vivid (and agressive) the multihull fraction here is responding. As refreshing is it, that the majority of our pro´s is always contradicted.
You´ll find not a single thread here, where (when the question came up), the professional part of the Forum along with the active amateur builders, did not agree unisono, that DIY in general does´nt save much money.

Amen
Richard

[Alan M.]

settle down fellas..

but good to see some passion...do any of you play rugby????

alan you cat looks awesome....well done there is nothing the same as building something youself.. what does that kit cost??? what does it include???

on resale, to be honest i am looking to build this boat as somehting i can use and enjoy as opposed to sell on for a minimal lose...

as for a cheap solid used 50 foot cat what am i looking at???? i have looke don the net and am having trouble finding anything super cheap??? are these boats in OZ????

anyway got a few waves in the the seychelles today so im pretty stoked on that...maybe ill bring my own boat here one day
nick

The kit costs around $70,000 with the plans. It includes enough Duflex, epoxy, glass, glue powder, and filler powder to build the bare shell. Not enough epoxy to fair it though.

I'm sure Apex 1 would be willing to find you an equivalent boat for $200k ready to sail though, he says he can.

[Fanie]

Eh Pex1 :D

There are various reason's why one would consider DIY -

You don't have to dish out a huge amount of money in one go,

You can spend as and how it suits your pocket and time,

There is HUGE self satisfaction involved,

Some consider it as a personal challange,

You learn more than you did in school (willingly),

You appreciate it more and look after your boat better than the rich boy.

I for one am of the opinion that every one out there should build at least one boat in his / her lifetime. You look at things differently when you did ;)

[Alan M.]

I did not edit my post.

yes you did not say several! That was twice the plural, I have to excuse. But "hundreds" is already plural, so it is several hundred thousands of dollars! Above the building cost (what ever they are) is, and remains to be, a dream! Set her up for sale, the real world will tell you the real value. And be sure 200k is about the max. you could get.
The value/cost comparison btw. is independant from any economical situation, because in a recession you pay less for your parts too.

Nowhere did I say one could buy a boat of that size for 200k !!! I said you build a boat of that value (at that cost). Which I now doubt, because you obviously like to cheat yourself.
But! Of course at a tad above that figure one can buy a standard mass product of that size!
You like to compare apples and orange I know.

The largest yacht insurers leave it to the customer to set the value of the boat (within plausible limits). And of course they like it to get a higher value insured. (If they pay the higher value after a crash is another issue, one should be familiar with the fineprint, usually not!).
And before we go deeper into that issue I may inform you that I have to insure about 100 vessel per annum and do that with the market leader (whos owner is a friend).

Thank you Angelique to do the exchange rate calculation for me, but no need for false information!!! First I do that daily (or get it done), second, I said 200k not 150!
Third and last, I do´nt need a self elected umpire when he (she) is not impartial.

And my last comment here:

It is always refreshing to see how vivid (and agressive) the multihull fraction here is responding. As refreshing is it, that the majority of our pro´s is always contradicted.
You´ll find not a single thread here, where (when the question came up), the professional part of the Forum along with the active amateur builders, did not agree unisono, that DIY in general does´nt save much money.

Amen
Richard

You are one serious wanker. And liar. So in being a liar, you just assume everyone else is lying too.

You say the most I could sell my boat for is $200k, yet next paragraph you say one can't buy a boat that size for $200k? Dumbarse.

And please show us the production 44' bridgedeck catamaran that can be bought new for "a tad" above $200k (Aus). I strongly suspect that's yet another of your lies.

One more comment: it's always boring to see monohull people telling multihull people how much they think they know about their boats. Pity it always ends up being exactly the same amount - absolutely nothing.

[Fanie]

Nick, don't let all this bickering put you off or slow you down. Besides the disagreements, you will get some good advice from this forum (really !! :rolleyes:), these guys arguing are really very good friends, the augmentive part is just the art of conversation - if you agree with someone else all the time there is very little to talk about :D

But do take note -

You can have a performance boat
It can be very comfortable and with accomodation
You can have it at low cost
Choose two of the above, there is no such thing as all three
(Dan Newick)

It's been said already, the guys just want to argue about it for a while :D

Oh yeah and who said what about when and why (male ego thing eh Angel :D)

[gonzo]

The truth is you can buy a used boat in good condition for a fraction of what building a new one will cost. To start with, you will waste and ruin a lot of materials while you learn. If you are lucky, you will end up with something of fair quality. I am shipwright, and end up buying cheap used boats because they save me so much time and money. I have several boats in my wish list to build, but there are so many bargains that I end up getting another used one. A home built boat may be difficult to insure, specially when it is bigger. You will have to satisfy a surveyor and an insurer that the boat is seaworthy. Remember that most marinas, and some countries, won't let you in without insurance. Also, the investment of several years of work is a consideration. Your life may change in a decade. Even though you are not paying for your own labor, you could be making money in the meantime. Another major expense can be storage. Several years of it can be expensive.

[apex1]

Eh Pex1 :D

There are various reason's why one would consider DIY -

You don't have to dish out a huge amount of money in one go,

You can spend as and how it suits your pocket and time,

There is HUGE self satisfaction involved,

Some consider it as a personal challange,

You learn more than you did in school (willingly),

You appreciate it more and look after your boat better than the rich boy.

I for one am of the opinion that every one out there should build at least one boat in his / her lifetime. You look at things differently when you did ;)


There is no point I would not sign Fanie! And you know that.:D


I´ll skimp on a deeper reply to the more agressive part of our Forum here. No need to feed the flames............though it would be nice when some folks would practice a bit in reading!

[Fanie]

There is no point I would not sign Fanie! And you know that.
Thank goodness... for a moment there I thought.... :D



Gonzo, I can probably buy a 2nd hand boat, but to be honest it would not fit my personal requirements. I'm sure others feel the same about their boats. We all have different ideas as you could probably gather from this page alone.

[Alan M.]

The truth is you can buy a used boat in good condition for a fraction of what building a new one will cost. To start with, you will waste and ruin a lot of materials while you learn. If you are lucky, you will end up with something of fair quality. I am shipwright, and end up buying cheap used boats because they save me so much time and money. I have several boats in my wish list to build, but there are so many bargains that I end up getting another used one. A home built boat may be difficult to insure, specially when it is bigger. You will have to satisfy a surveyor and an insurer that the boat is seaworthy. Remember that most marinas, and some countries, won't let you in without insurance. Also, the investment of several years of work is a consideration. Your life may change in a decade. Even though you are not paying for your own labor, you could be making money in the meantime. Another major expense can be storage. Several years of it can be expensive.

A fraction? Like 9/4 you mean? I looked at buying, and the simple fact is, for me, building was MUCH cheaper. Maybe if you bought something pretty old needing a serious amount of work... but then after all that work what you have is still an old boat.

I think it also depends on what kind of boat - you can buy monohulls in reasonable condition very cheap. But bargain cats are harder to find. Also catamaran design has come a long way in recent years, where in most ways an old mono is just as good or even better than a newer one.

It also depends on how you build it. Duflex kits are pretty easy, and wastage is minimal. Kits boats like the Fusion 40 are even easier and very quick. If you have to pay for accomodation for the boat, they might be a better option.

[gonzo]

I am talking about the USA where the price of boats dimishes very fast. People want new boats, so the used boat market is always bloated.

[DaveJ]

See thats it, the prices of multihulls here in Australia are so over inflated, it makes so much sence to build your own (from what i've seen, Australia is the multihull capital of the world, and the desginers here all cater to the home builder, that must say something). I did a quick check on the market www.boatpoint.com.au and looked for a boat that is the same size and design as Alan,s and i could not find one for the price of building, no where near infact.

One thing i have noticed is the price on the boat is based more on its outfit than the make/design of the hulls, to a certain extent. But a better outfitted boat will fetch more on the market.

[Angélique]

I've had a look at them pics before. Still the same ones.

So you call 80+ pictures stingy ?? ;)

So, what kind of an angel are you ?

Something like this...

http://images.zaazu.com/img/000709-small.gif (http://images.zaazu.com/img/000709-large.gif) Angélique http://images.zaazu.com/img/000709-small.gif (http://images.zaazu.com/img/000709-large.gif)

[Fanie]

Hi Angélique

Actually this is / was Nick's thread :eek:

I did mention I saw these pictures before, ALL of them :D

[Angélique]

Actually this is / was Nick's thread :eek:

You're right, so the pictures are gone.

Regards, Angélique

[Alan M.]

Re: Insuring home built boats. I've gotten to know quite a few people who have built their own, usually in their backyards, and I don't know ANY who have had any difficulties getting the boat insured for a value they were happy with. ie. much more than the cost of building.

I only know one home builder who needed to make a claim when his boat was written off, and that claim was paid in full. From what I've been told, more than 3 times what the boat cost to build.

The alleged insurance difficulties seem to be yet another myth put about by those with a vested interest in discouraging anyone from building their own.

[welder/fitter]

Nick,
For yourself + 2 or 3 guys, I'd suggest that a smaller boat would serve the purpose & be a more achieveable project. I'm not suggesting you couldn't build such a large vessel, but from previous experience, it would take several workers who are married to the project.

In the early 1990s, I bought a deck & hull & plans for an 83' fishboat. Over the next couple of years I went from working on my own to having 12 employees &, in the end, built two fishing boats. My actual costs were almost 4x my estimate.

Based on your description, I believe that a boat in the range of 38' - 42' would serve your purposes. It would take less time, cost less money & be more manageable for short-handing. This is just a suggestion, of course &, in the end, you'll build what you want & I wish you the best in your build.

Mike

[WestVanHan]

Hey Nick,have you thought of a Wharram Pahi 63?

Cheap to build,tons of bunks,many ocean crossings.


http://www.multihull-maven.com/Boats/Pahi_63

[jaydh]

Nick,

I haven't read through all the post regarding your initial question so I'll apologize up front if there's any repeating here.....

Mate, my wife and I built a 48 foot alloy sailing cat and got it in the water in roughly 17 months. Right in your budget range with all quality equipment, engines, gear, sails, etc, etc. It was our first build. First time with alum. My wife and I agree we wasted more time arguing, worrying over nothing and drinking coffee/smoking cigs un-necessarily in hindsight. I think we had some info up on this site some place?? If nothing else check our our website sailpalau.com to get an idea of the boat. There's a few in Thailand/Malaysia/Burma doing charters too if you search google.

If you are serious, email me and I'll pass on the designers email and cell with whom you can deal with for plans. We have no business ties with him, just like his way of doing things, his honesty and no bs attitude.

Btw, we have twin 3ym30 yanmars which sip fuel and the boat hauls ass if you have any wind at all. We just did a trip from Brisbane to Palau and went through 30 - 40 gallons of diesel total and we motored much more then we would of liked to (wind pissed off!). We also run a watermaker off one engine each day and that's part of the total burn.

I did notice some nay-saying here about such a project, but it's far more easy then most let on if you keep your head in the game and devote all your energies to it....and keep things simple.

best regards,
Jay
Koror, Palau
s/v Tank Girl

[nickvonw]

thanks jay...nice pics have u got any of the layout and finished product????

so how much where the yanmars roughly??? they are shaft drives??? not saildrives???

its really good to hear from people who've finished projects

how did u fond the aluminium to work with??? how much wedling experince did u have and was it a kit?? how did u get the pices cut and bent?? did u contract that work out

anyway mate hope these arent too annoying all these questions

cheers nick

[Angélique]

I do´nt need a self elected umpire when he (she) is not impartial.

You´ll find not a single thread here, where (when the question came up), the professional part of the Forum along with the active amateur builders, did not agree unisono, that DIY in general does´nt save much money.
Richard, you forgot this thread. Unless you defines agree unison a littel diffrent than I do.

And don't be afraid, I'm not a umpire. I only give my opinion just like you do. But I see no harm in that.

Man and Superman (1903)

Maxims for Revolutionists (http://www.bartleby.com/157/6.html)

REASON

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

The man who listens to Reason is lost; Reason enslaves all whose minds are not strong enough to master her.

George Bernard Shaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw) (1856–1950)

Nobel Prize for Literature (1925)
I like to add that not every unreasonable man makes progress ;)

Regards, Angélique

[Angélique]

how did u fond the aluminium to work with??? how much wedling experince did u have and was it a kit?? how did u get the pices cut and bent?? did u contract that work out
Nick, maybe you find some answers here already. Aluminum Cat project... (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/aluminum-cat-project-28082.html)

Regards, Angélique

[welder/fitter]

Jay,
Interesting post! How about showing us all a few more photos & telling us your build story? Who was the designer?
Mike

[Alan M.]

Nick,

I haven't read through all the post regarding your initial question so I'll apologize up front if there's any repeating here.....

Mate, my wife and I built a 48 foot alloy sailing cat and got it in the water in roughly 17 months. Right in your budget range with all quality equipment, engines, gear, sails, etc, etc. It was our first build. First time with alum. My wife and I agree we wasted more time arguing, worrying over nothing and drinking coffee/smoking cigs un-necessarily in hindsight. I think we had some info up on this site some place?? If nothing else check our our website sailpalau.com to get an idea of the boat. There's a few in Thailand/Malaysia/Burma doing charters too if you search google.

If you are serious, email me and I'll pass on the designers email and cell with whom you can deal with for plans. We have no business ties with him, just like his way of doing things, his honesty and no bs attitude.

Btw, we have twin 3ym30 yanmars which sip fuel and the boat hauls ass if you have any wind at all. We just did a trip from Brisbane to Palau and went through 30 - 40 gallons of diesel total and we motored much more then we would of liked to (wind pissed off!). We also run a watermaker off one engine each day and that's part of the total burn.

I did notice some nay-saying here about such a project, but it's far more easy then most let on if you keep your head in the game and devote all your energies to it....and keep things simple.

best regards,
Jay
Koror, Palau
s/v Tank Girl

A 48 foot alloy cat in the sub $200k budget range? Come on, that's impossible! You must be telling lies too Jay! ;)

But everyone knows you can buy a production cat that size for just a tad more....

[masalai]

Lets put a bit of sobriety into this case... - Alan, By your own admission you have not included "gopher" and "research" times/costing in your project and your time to make some of the hardware would not necessarily include the total time - including thinking out how to do it - like making and mounting your bollards, of which I am envious, lovely effort... and that does not include sails and riggers to design and quantify the materials/hardware, nor project coordination which these guys must address, and stuff I have not thought of yet...

These four friends need legal assistance to draw up a contract - 1) if one or more pull out - 2) who is the decision maker "captain" - 3) how and when each must contribute - 4) who decides who is leader - 5) How is a new leader determined... plus dozens more issues to be foreseen and agreed.... Somehow I do not see it happening...

Hull materials for kits are increasing in price (mine were around $52000 and would be nearer Au$72K now), auxiliary engines, electrical, plumbing, navigational electronics, mast/s & standing rigging, running rigging, sails, fittings, deck hardware, galley, RO watermaker safety systems. . . . . . . Wow the list can go on forever... Nice to dream, but - - - Look at the second hand market, hire the boat (skippered by the owner) for a weekend with you all on board... then think again as to what is realistically possible...

[Alan M.]

Lets put a bit of sobriety into this case... - Alan, By your own admission you have not included "gopher" and "research" times/costing in your project and your time to make some of the hardware would not necessarily include the total time - including thinking out how to do it - like making and mounting your bollards, of which I am envious, lovely effort... and that does not include sails and riggers to design and quantify the materials/hardware, nor project coordination which these guys must address, and stuff I have not thought of yet...



Sorry, but where did I say I hadn't included the time to fabricate the cleats? Fact is, they didn't take long to make at all... and they cost less than stainless ones.

And my total costing does include the rig - most of which I already have, and $25,000 for the sails, which are really the last major expense ahead.

Project, co-ordination, gophering - yes professional builders have to pay for them - I don't.
Which is why I can build a boat like this for much less money than I could possibly buy one for. And that is the entire point.

It's amazing how much disbelief there seems to be - I recently had a visitor who felt it was impossible to have built this boat to this stage in less than 15,000 hours. Therefore by his reasoning I must have worked nearly 14 hours per day, 7 days a week for 3 years.... pig's arse.

The reality is, I don't spend as much time working on the thing as I should. Certainly not 14 or 12 or 10 or even 8 hours a day. And not 7 days a week either.

In fact today I never laid a hand on the boat. And during the course of the project, we've had holidays in Alaska the US and Canada, New Caledonia.... I've been off sailing in the Hog's breath regatta, done a trip to Cape York, sailed from Seisa to Gove... If I had really got stuck in, the boat would have been launched at least 6 months and probably closer to 12 months ago.

"Research" costing? You mean how much it costs to think about stuff? Last time I looked it was free.

[nickvonw]

alan and jay i think your spot on...

i will tend to believe you guys as u have actually built boats with you ur own money, time and skills......also you have no reason to make this stuff up...

i give u guys heaps of credit for taking the leap of faith, despite all this negativity floating round.......


maybe some of the people on this thread put buildng there own custom built boat into the 'too hard' category....i guess for those a used 50 foot lagoon would be the way to go (where u can find a decent one for 200K i dont know). but for me i put more value on space and the customisation of the boat to my needs and what i want to use it for...i want some to live on it and explore .........i dont want something that is designed for 4 couples to cruise the whitsundays for a week at a time 20 times a year (who needs 4 heads on a 50ft cat?????)

but it is very interesting to find out what clever people can achieve when they devote themselves to something


i agree with masalai, the 4 mates thing would be tough, proably hav to work and save monye for longer and do it with one mate or with my chick..time will tell

cheers

nick

alan, whats all the fuss bout ur cleats?? i navent seen any pics???

[jaydh]

nick...check your pm box. Sent our costs to ya and addressed some other questions ya had...

best - J

[Alan M.]

alan, whats all the fuss bout ur cleats?? i navent seen any pics???

Nothing special, just composite cleats.

http://i39.tinypic.com/280r66r.jpg

[nickvonw]

nice cleats alan...

pretty smart..especially if they were cheaper than stainless ones...maybe stronger too???

what is the durability of duflex like????how many layers of epoxy and glass do u put below the water line???strength compared to alloy?? did u look into alloy coinstruction..it looks like the duflex kit method looks like the easiest fastest way to go for a home builder...


did u look into plywood?? does anyone have any experience with plywood epoxy construction???

nick

[Alan M.]

Every material has it's pro's and cons. I'm not a welder, so I'd either have had to learn to weld on my own boat, which would be a worry, or pay a professional to do it. Which to me, isn't quite the same thing as building your own boat.

Also I doubt an alloy cruising boat would turn out as light as a Duflex one, once you fit all the lining needed inside. You can just fair and paint the inside of Duflex.

Then there's the difficulty of painting aluminium, and having to use antifouls with no copper.....that's not to say aluminium doesn't have some very good points - but it has it's downsides too.

Once I had handled some Duflex, I just liked it. It's already glassed both sides, so it saves work compared to plywood, the panels are incredibly stiff, straight and light, they don't get mouldy or warp....

It has it's downsides too - it's not cheap for one, and you have to be careful to de-core and fill or glass over every exposed edge - screwing on fittings becomes a much bigger job - where with alloy it would be a simple drill and tap job, or with ply, just screw straight on, with Duflex you have to drill a bigger hole, de-core and epoxy fill, then drill again.

Plywood isn't anywhere near as much of an up-front financial commitment. Once you have the shed, you can buy some ply, glass and epoxy and get started without really spending serious cash. Probably similar with alloy.

It's probably more a matter of what suits your current budget and location than one material being that much better than the other.

[Fanie]

Learning to weld properly is certainly an asset. This is what the SS cleats look like I made myself - compared to the buying price they cost next to nothing, I also get a kick out of making it myself.

People for the most part is eager to share what they know, just look at the forum. If you go to a pro welder and ask him what to look for and spend a little time on something then it's not that hard. We sometimes forget to compliment those that so freely share their expertees - so when someone does teach you something do spread the word. Next time they may help you again.

I'm not saying your composite cleats are not good or not strong enough, but scarfing is going to show up and you are going to keep on painting them.

So far I've made quite a few items, cleats, blocks, anchors and it will end with the trailer. Calculated it's quite a bunch I'll be saving by doing it myself.

Now, ask me if it was worth it so far :D

[gonzo]

You can buy SS cleats for about U$13.00 at Harbor Freight. Between the cost of materials, electricity and wear and tear on equipment I don't think you are saving any money. Also, the design on that cleat is poor. The horns should taper so the line tightens as it pulls. The taper makes it easier to loosen the line too.

[Fanie]

Actually I have seen similar on the internet, no tapers. Maybe I made these wrong, the line loosens easy. The materials was relaive cheap, and what wear and tear on equipment ? The macine goes on to weld and off when done, which is what I got it for :D Also, besides being a ripoff price (you forget where I am) the ones for sale didn't impress me.

[sailsocal]

(Duflex) has it's downsides too - it's not cheap for one, and you have to be careful to de-core and fill or glass over every exposed edge - screwing on fittings becomes a much bigger job - where with alloy it would be a simple drill and tap job, or with ply, just screw straight on, with Duflex you have to drill a bigger hole, de-core and epoxy fill, then drill again.


De-coring and filling duflex holes prevents absorption of moisture, right? So wouldn't you want to do the same thing with holes in a plywood core?

[Scrumble]

De-coring and filling duflex holes prevents absorption of moisture, right? So wouldn't you want to do the same thing with holes in a plywood core?

I do when placing ply as a dense core replacement in duflex.

http://scrumbleproject.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/bonding-the-aluminium-backing-plates-for

Alan, Thank you, I have enjoyed the discussion and know that my boat will come in at less than 250K AUD, a bit more than you due to the diesels and V drives.

[nickvonw]

would alloy be tougher in the long run....if u are running thing up onot beaches etc

also would alloy be less maintenance with painting etc??? also would have to fair alloy at all??? why fair alloy?? is it purely asethetics???

n

[jamez]

The look doesn't suit everyone but you don't need to paint an alloy boat at all topsides. Something very appealing about a boat that never needs exterior repainting above the WL. I have no idea what it costs to paint a 45-50'BD cat, but I would imagine a significant cost and time saving over a number of years if it wasn't necessary.

[Alan M.]

Alan, Thank you, I have enjoyed the discussion and know that my boat will come in at less than 250K AUD, a bit more than you due to the diesels and V drives.

And your cleats! :eek: :D

[Alan M.]

would alloy be tougher in the long run....if u are running thing up onot beaches etc

also would alloy be less maintenance with painting etc??? also would have to fair alloy at all??? why fair alloy?? is it purely asethetics???

n

Fairing any material is pretty much all about asthetics.