View Full Version : Boat Capsize Evidence
Sachi
10-10-2009, 11:51 AM
hii friends,
Is there any book/procedure/guideline for collecting/analyzing the evidence for failure in design of a capsized boat?
my boat is a double Decker one, with seating capacity of 80 people. Its a fiber boat. It was capsized while taking a turn in lake while on full capacity. It is suspected that there is a design failure and people want to sue the company.
My boat 14 m in lenght with 4 meter beam, 1 m draft and 15 ton displacement. It is made of fibre and a double decker. total weight 6 tons.
I want to investigate the following
1. How to analyse a suspected design failure
2. what is the maximum degree that the boat can turn
3. What are the requirements for an FRP fibre that used in boat especially plesure boats
4. What are the regulations for pleasure boats
4. Any other useful information
Please help me with books, astm, ISO or any other documents in this regard
thanks in advance
gonzo
10-10-2009, 01:19 PM
What makes you think that capsizing a boat is an indication of design failure?
Because it just couldn't be 15 people on a 20' pontoon boat all running to the starboard side at once to watch fire works (or something), it just has to be the designer and their incompetence in vessel design. I mashed my thumb with a hammer yesterday, so I'll be filling suit with Stanley at the first of the week.
Fanie
10-10-2009, 06:57 PM
I think you nailed it on the head there :D
dskira
10-10-2009, 07:12 PM
hii friends,
Is there any book/procedure/guideline for collecting/analyzing the evidence for failure in design of a capsized boat?
I am sorry Sachi, but it is not a very good question.
Cheers
Daniel
Fanie
10-10-2009, 07:31 PM
If you are looking for statistics on why boats capsized then that is something quite different.
Or maybe you are looking for evidence that a boat has capsized before
What size boat are you talking about ?
Boats in general are designed very well.
Paul Kotzebue
10-10-2009, 08:41 PM
Because it just couldn't be 15 people on a 20' pontoon boat all running to the starboard side at once to watch fire works (or something), it just has to be the designer and their incompetence in vessel design.
In that particular case it absolutely would be poor design. Any boat that is designed to carry people should be designed with adequate stability with passengers crowded to one side.
Yooper78
10-10-2009, 09:29 PM
I don't remember seeing capacity plates on boats in the 20'-30' range that state maximum number of passengers or maximum weight of passengers as you do with small boats and canoes. 15 passengers on a 20' boat seems like an awful lot -- would the designer be expected to design the boat to remain stable no matter how the live load moved and no matter how much live load was piled on board until the boat sank straight (but stable) down of the weight???
So, Paul, how many 20' pontoon boats you know of that can accommodate 15 people at the starboard rail? You clearly missed the point, which is simply the vast majority of capsizes are because the owner no brained themselves into a hole. Unfortunately, society can't sue them for being foolish, though they can jail them for being an idiot.
Sachi
10-10-2009, 09:44 PM
hii,
my boat is a double Decker one, with seating capacity of 80 people. Its a fiber boat. It was capsized while taking a turn in lake while on full capacity. It is suspected that there is a design failure and people want to sue the company.
Design analyses can be a long and drawn out affair. It also is very probable that nothing conclusive may result from the design study. In a large majority of cases, it's the skipper that is technically at fault.
Unfortunately, in your part of the world, having standards and accepted practices in place for protections against unsafe designs or operation, is shall we say "lacking". In this regard, the majority of cases it's the boat skipper who is typically the person directly responsible, but since most of these don't have enough money to be worth suing, the designer or manufacture is unjustly perused.
To get started, you need a legal team, preferably those with experience in just this sort of litigation. Short of this, you're pretty much out of luck.
ancient kayaker
10-10-2009, 10:36 PM
hii,
my boat is a double Decker one, with seating capacity of 80 people. Its a fiber boat. It was capsized while taking a turn in lake while on full capacity. It is suspected that there is a design failure and people want to sue the company.
I would imagine you would need the number of passengers, details of any other loads, number and qualifications and experience of the crew including the captain, the rated capacity of the boat, evidence that it was well maintained and in good condition and intended for the purpose it was being used for, information on the suitability of the location for that kind of craft, statements of what took place immediately before and during the incident, weather information to show it was not an issue at the time, information on the influence of other craft in the vicinity for example excessive wash. In general any court would want to know what happened and in what way the boat was being used that was different from its design intention and the usual practice for that particular boat ind similar boats. You have to show that it was being operated in a responsible manner well within its intended ratings and in a safe location before you have a chance of proving design error. You would have to show either something failed that chould not reasonably be expected to under the circumstances, or that the boat was simply did not suited the purpose its designer stated it was for. And even then you probably won't get anywhere unless there is an established culture of litigation for such matters.
Ad Hoc
10-11-2009, 12:33 AM
Sachi
You need to employ professional consultants to establish if there is "any blame" as such, but more importantly to establish the sequence of events that caused the incident. This will take time and be costly. There is no quick one line answer. Your insurance company would normally take this approach if they have not done so already, since all insurance companies will not want to 'pay-out'. They wish to 'blame' someone...
Unless there is a similar 'body' like the MAIB in your part of the world.
gonzo
10-11-2009, 07:48 AM
Who decided on the seating capacity? Did you just install they maximum amount of seats that would fit the space? Are there any signs telling people not to crowd to one side? Are the onboard personell properly trained and inform people of reguations? It goes on and on.
Over 80% of marine accidents are human factor (operator) and thus designer/builder won't take any responsibility. Most widespread factor of capsize is overload or incorrect loading, that is definitely fault of operator.
Besides just curious where are lakes in Bahrain?
gonzo
10-11-2009, 09:47 AM
Alik: Where do you get 80%. One of the things I really dislike is people making up numbers to sound as if they have facts instead of opinions
Alik: Where do you get 80%. One of the things I really dislike is people making up numbers to sound as if they have facts instead of opinions
Statistics of marine accidents... I can't give a link, but this is fact I picked up when I was working in seafarer's training center.
OK, this is fast sample: http://www.mardep.gov.hk/en/publication/pdf/mai_c2006.pdf
Look on what is operator's factors and what could probably be technical factors, You will get those 80%
Document for topic starter:
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Regulations%202005.pdf
Paul Kotzebue
10-11-2009, 11:46 AM
So, Paul, how many 20' pontoon boats you know of that can accommodate 15 people at the starboard rail?
None. But if it can accomodate 15 people at the starboard rail, it will, and the designer should account for that. The alternative is for the designer to determine the maximum safe capacity of the vessel based on USCG or other accepted guidelines.
sabahcat
10-11-2009, 07:04 PM
In that particular case it absolutely would be poor design. Any boat that is designed to carry people should be designed with adequate stability with passengers crowded to one side.
My 11 ft aluminium dinghy/tender would capsize with 3 people on the gunwale, it probably would with 2.
It must be a poor design.:rolleyes:
Submarine Tom
10-11-2009, 07:39 PM
Pictures Sachi, do you have any pictures?
But if it can accomodate 15 people at the starboard rail, it will, and the designer should account for that.
This is a gross misunderstanding on your part Paul. No one can be expected to account for every possibility, particularly when boneheadedness comes to play.
Gonzo, 80% sounds about right, without looking up the figures. It might even be a little low.
Ad Hoc
10-11-2009, 09:04 PM
PAR
Paul is correct in saying:
"..But if it can accomodate 15 people at the starboard rail, it will, and the designer should account for that..."
You must remember this is a passenger vessel. As such the designer must investigate ALL possible conditions/scenarios that could occur. Whether it should or should not happen is irrelevant.
Passenger crowding on one side, for passenger vessels, the design MUST investigate the possibility of as many passengers pushed/squeezed/forced into one area as humanly possible. Whether this condition is equal or greater than the Flag requirement is again, irrelevant. This MUST be investigated in the initial design stage.
This work is always done during the submission, or preferably before, the submission of the preliminary stability booklet to Flag or Class.
As for:
"..No one can be expected to account for every possibility, particularly when boneheadedness comes to play.."
Correct. BUT, if the designer has not mitigate all design issues, than the culprit, for the accident gets of Scott free by pointing to poor design.
It is negligent of any naval architect, in the commercial field, not to investigate all possible scenarios of passenger loadings. If a passenger CAN get to a location, then it WILL happen.
If the investigation shows that all those passengers crowed to one side, the boat would capsize, then the max limit would be ascertained from the stability investigation. Then, this limit is written into the Operating Manual (again another Class requirement - all these issues are beyond the knowledge of luxury/pleasure market designs). The operating manual will state very very clearly the maximum number of passengers allowed on the vessels side.
The vessel, when delivered will ahve
1) The operating manual, informing the Capt. what is possible
2) The vessel will have a tally to state "No More than XX passengers". (Just as lifts do, for max payload)
Beyond this, there is nothing else the designer can do, save to redesign the whole side to actually prevent ANYONE actually going to the side, or limited to the max, that has been previously calculated.
The latter rarely occurs, since the owner of the vessel wants the layout as such, and wont compromise. Hence any responsibility is then taken by the owner/operator to ensure that the max number of passengers per side, is not exceeded.
This issue is a good case that highlights the very real differences between the luxury/pleasure marker and the commercial one. The new rules and reg's for CE marking and the small boat code etc, that many seem to be whinging about for compliance, is just the tip of the iceberg that commercial vessels must comply with day in day out, which is unknown outside this field.
Hence the requirement for professional naval architects not those....i have software i can draw, ergo i can design!
Luckless
10-11-2009, 09:04 PM
Most widespread factor of capsize is overload or incorrect loading, that is definitely fault of operator.
Actually, this can't be said to 'definitely' be the fault of the operator. If the operator was following loading guidelines they were provided, and it capsizes, it is the fault of whoever provided the guidelines. (unless of course it is grossly out there, like 100 tonnes on a very small boat.)
John and Paul, we're in agreement that commercial vessels, with passengers for hire, fall under a different set of guide lines. My premises was based on a hypothetical 20' pontoon boat with 15 people aboard (clearly above it's stated pleasure use limit, by any stretch of the imagination), gathered at the rail. This precise situation just occurred last summer with the death of a kid. Guess who was found guilty of negligent homicide.
Yes, in commercial craft we go to much greater lengths, but in the original posters case I suspect they craft didn't comply with any of our accepted standards. Of course this is an assumsion, but reasonably based on the region. Wherein you can see 35 passenger buses, traveling up the side of a mountain, with 65 inside and another 15 clinging to the outside, I have difficulty accepting any responsibility on the part of the designer. In areas where standards and regulatory mandates have been accepted, you don't see this type of behavior.
Actually, this can't be said to 'definitely' be the fault of the operator. If the operator was following loading guidelines they were provided, and it capsizes, it is the fault of whoever provided the guidelines. (unless of course it is grossly out there, like 100 tonnes on a very small boat.)
I was working for 4 years in seafarers training center, developing and customizing stability/loading software for captains and officers. Those days I have studied accident reports on loss of stability, in most cases the reason was overload, mostly shipowners forced captains to overload in order to maximize commercial effect.
The naval architects are always backed by comping the Rules, so there is no argument on subject. It is well known that if passengers crowded on one side heel should not exceed 10 degrees, etc.
Of course, this all works if the boat was designed by professional naval architect and built strictly according to the design. If it is drawn by amateurs, then it is another story (but still ship owners fault - who saved the money on professional design?) :)
Paul Kotzebue
10-11-2009, 11:47 PM
John and Paul, we're in agreement that commercial vessels, with passengers for hire, fall under a different set of guide lines.
33 CFR 183 has guidelines for boats and associated equipment. ISO has stability standards for small boats. In any case it is the responsibility of the designer to follow applicable safety guidelines. The guidelines for commercial vessels may be different, but the standard of care required to design the vessel is not. In addition to applicable safety standards, professional engineers (including naval architects) are required to follow the laws of the jurisdiction that issued their license with regard to engineering practice.
Crowding of passengers to one side is a fundamental design consideration regardless of the service of the vessel. If there is room for 15 people on the rail, then 15 people will be on the rail unless the passenger capacity is limited and clearly marked on the vessel. This is equally true for passenger and pleasure vessels.
Paul Kotzebue
10-11-2009, 11:51 PM
My 11 ft aluminium dinghy/tender would capsize with 3 people on the gunwale, it probably would with 2.
It must be a poor design.:rolleyes:
Not necessarily. The gunwale is not the same as a seat or a deck with a handrail. If your dinghy capsized with people sitting on the seats it would indeed be a poor design.
professional engineers (including naval architects) are required to follow the laws of the jurisdiction that issued their license with regard to engineering practice.
This system of professional licencing is used in US but not in other countrues where a proper degree is already enough to practice naval architecture. As to boat/yacht designers in US, I heard 90% of them do not have any engineering degree at all, but probably they are not allowed to touch commercial vessels? I have seen some small ferries, charter boats, etc. designed by American designers who are not naval architects by education (at least they do not hold Bachellor degree on the subject).
So everything is not easy here, at least we should know who designed that boat in question and what really happened. BUT if design agreement is written properly the designer will not take responsibility for accidents (we used to put this clause in agreement also).
sabahcat
10-12-2009, 01:07 AM
Not necessarily. The gunwale is not the same as a seat or a deck with a handrail. If your dinghy capsized with people sitting on the seats it would indeed be a poor design.
Your quote
Any boat that is designed to carry people should be designed with adequate stability with passengers crowded to one side.
me and my mates on the gunwale would be passengers crowded to one side.
Or to go another way, would the OP's vessel have capsized with the passengers on seats?
Submarine Tom
10-12-2009, 02:20 AM
Sachi,
Do you have any pictures or has your thread been hi-jacked?
Tom
Paul Kotzebue
10-12-2009, 08:44 AM
me and my mates on the gunwale would be passengers crowded to one side.
"Passengers crowded to one side" is not colloquial and has specific meaning in various stability criteria. It normally includes passenger weight in areas designed to accommodate people, whether sitting or standing, and is not the same for all types of vessels. You would have to check the applicable criteria to determine if passenger weight on the gunwale is a consideration.
Ad Hoc
10-12-2009, 08:58 AM
"..My 11 ft aluminium dinghy/tender would capsize with 3 people on the gunwale, it probably would with 2...me and my mates on the gunwale would be passengers crowded to one side.."
Is your 11ft dinghy designed to have 2 or 3 poeple on one side? When you bought it, did the brochure say...."look great, you can even have 2 or 3 crew sat on the gunwales"..or did it say something else, or nothing at all?
Note, these are "technically" not passengers since this implies they are paying for the pleasure of being transported on your dinghy - incidentally a minimum of 12 is required to be called a 'passenger' boat too.
Fanie
10-12-2009, 09:14 AM
I agree with Ad Hock and Paul. A boat is designed with a certain load in mind, but not all the load on the one side.
We had a similar scenario where a pleasure 'boat' capsized. There never was a problem until they decided to have a strip show on the upper deck. So when the stripper started her act, the bunch of sheep all shifted to the one side - which I assume was the front side - of the stripper that is - which was on the side of the vessel - and it toppled over. You have to realize that South Africans have never seen a naked woman before and it stands to reason that they would lose all sense of logic. Ok just until they hit the water.
Can only be humans doing such stupid things, and we're supposed to be a spesies capable of thinking. I say next time THINK before you get aboard with a bunch of idiots.
dskira
10-12-2009, 10:28 AM
hii friends,
Is there any book/procedure/guideline for collecting/analyzing the evidence for failure in design of a capsized boat?
my boat is a double Decker one, with seating capacity of 80 people. Its a fiber boat. It was capsized while taking a turn in lake while on full capacity. It is suspected that there is a design failure and people want to sue the company.
I do not know why but I missed the second part of your post Sachi.
I apologize, it is a good question:D
Cheers
Daniel
Fanie
10-12-2009, 10:35 AM
my boat is a double Decker one, with seating capacity of 80 people.
The other Q is, how many people were actually on the upper deck ? I can hardly think it sensable to have the majority people on the upper level.
Since there is SEATING for 80 people, were they SEATED :D
Kinda makes me think of these phiolamon taxi's here. There is seating for 11 people, but 22 gets injured when there is an accident. No, it's not overloading in SA, neither is it the driver's fault, it's the vehicle that is not roadworthy :D
ancient kayaker
10-12-2009, 12:36 PM
Not necessarily. The gunwale is not the same as a seat or a deck with a handrail. If your dinghy capsized with people sitting on the seats it would indeed be a poor design.
Valid point. Passemgers rarely hike out over the rail on a tour boat!
Submarine Tom
10-12-2009, 02:03 PM
No response from Sachi. Another hi-jacked thread. Of course you guys haven't even noticed. Carry on...
Fanie
10-12-2009, 02:28 PM
The thread is right on topic imo. Sachi may have left because he didn't hear what he wanted to hear.
peter radclyffe
10-12-2009, 04:01 PM
I agree with Ad Hock and Paul. A boat is designed with a certain load in mind, but not all the load on the one side.
We had a similar scenario where a pleasure 'boat' capsized. There never was a problem until they decided to have a strip show on the upper deck. So when the stripper started her act, the bunch of sheep all shifted to the one side - which I assume was the front side - of the stripper that is - which was on the side of the vessel - and it toppled over. You have to realize that South Africans have never seen a naked woman before and it stands to reason that they would lose all sense of logic. Ok just until they hit the water.
Can only be humans doing such stupid things, and we're supposed to be a spesies capable of thinking. I say next time THINK before you get aboard with a bunch of idiots. man your hilarious
Fanie
10-12-2009, 04:28 PM
Yes well, according to the news report they were ALL wearing life jackets (remember it's LAW here now). Not sure how a strip show goes where all are strapped into their life jackets. I've been to a strip show before (can't remember the colour of her hair or if she had any) and I've warn a life jacket also, I can just imagine it is going to be kinky.
One of my friends is currently building himself a similar party boat. He was going to make it 4m wide, and it's 12m long. Since I had to draw the structure for him, I told him 4m is too narrow, exactly for this reason. If someone say check the fish the whole bunch is going to storm the side. 6m minimum, I still think it could be wider, but the real solution would be to get more than one stripper at a time ;)
ancient kayaker
10-12-2009, 06:46 PM
Then the boats on either side will capsize :eek:
Sachi
10-13-2009, 07:07 AM
My boat 14 m in lenght with 4 meter beam, 1 m draft and 15 ton displacement. It is made of fibre and a double decker. total weight 6 tons.
I want to investigate the following
1. How to analyse a suspected design failure
2. what is the maximum degree that the boat can turn
3. What are the requirements for an FRP fibre that used in boat especially plesure boats
4. What are the regulations for pleasure boats
4. Any other useful information
Please help me with books, astm, ISO or any other documents in this regard
thanks in advance
14x4m boat licenced for 80 passengers? Hm... Who issued the licence, Marine Department?
owene
10-13-2009, 08:11 AM
Just leave the country and let anyone that wishes to sue get on with it. However you approach this, you will end up bankrupt (even if you are found to be blameless) so it's quicker, cheaper and emotionally simpler to turn yourself into ether.
Fanie
10-13-2009, 08:22 AM
Sachi,
Imo for that length hulls the beam should have been around 7m and not for double the passengers, but specifically so it won't capsize. If it was two meters wide for instance it would capsize much easier. You can calculate the capsize moment wrt the beam width. I just use my female instinct with these things.
PAR
Unfortunately, in your part of the world, having standards and accepted practices in place for protections against unsafe designs or operation, is shall we say is "lacking".
As I mentioned very early in this thread, we just haven't a clue what this is all about. Now we have a hint and things are about as I suggested.
Now, I'm dieing to see a picture of the boat, just to confirm what we all must be envisioning about now.
After a quick search of capsizes in Malaysia, I found none (no news story, which in itself is interesting) that suggested an 80 passenger vessel capsized, but did come across several dating back to 2003, all of which were over loaded, most in "rough" conditions.
This leaves one to conclude that Sachi, needs to be more specific (date of incident, name of boat, location of incident, etc.) so we can get a real picture of what's going on.
Ad Hoc
10-13-2009, 06:27 PM
Sachi
If you're serious about your quest, then look at the stability book for the vessel. That will tell you who designed it, which class/flag state surveyed/approved her, what standards it is to meet etc etc.
Guillermo
10-17-2009, 06:28 PM
USA's 46 Code of Federal Regulations, Subchapter S, Part 171.
http://cfr.vlex.com/source/1095/toc/01.17
(if aplicable in your country. Most probably you should have specific criteria for that kind of small domestic passengers vessel, issued by your national authorities)
Hire a naval architect and ask him/her to perform an stability test to the boat (if not lost) and recalculate to find if your country's mandatory stability criteria are met, including maximum allowed turning heel. If boat has been lost, then the NA can revise the whole stability booklet of the boat to search for possible faulty calculations if there are any.
This may also be of interest to you:
http://www.ukshipregister.co.uk/master_final_report_10-11-08.pdf
pistnbroke
10-17-2009, 07:14 PM
did not read all the thread but why is your insurance company not dealing with it .....Public liability etc ...did these people pay to go aboard .??
View Full Version : Boat Capsize Evidence