Marine Wire

[Mark Emaus]

Building my pontoon duck boat blind/ walleye fishing boat. The pontoon will be in the water in the summer months and in and out in the fall.

How important is it to use marine wire?

and with a 2 battery system (12volt) does anyone have a diagrahm of wiring the engine, alt, ignition conections?

thanks

Mark

[tom28571]

Building my pontoon duck boat blind/ walleye fishing boat. The pontoon will be in the water in the summer months and in and out in the fall.

How important is it to use marine wire?

and with a 2 battery system (12volt) does anyone have a diagrahm of wiring the engine, alt, ignition conections?

thanks

Mark

You will get a lot of different advice on marine wire. I like to use marine but there are more boats out there without marine wire than those that use it. The main points of marine wire are that it is tinned and the jacket is chemical and heat resistant. Both are important but I have had boats without and they did fine.

You don't say whether the boat is inboard or outboard. If outboard, the wiring is self contained in the manufacturers set up and can be completely separate from the second battery. the simplest system ties the negative posts of both batteries together permanently and has a single pole on-off switch to connect the house battery in parallel to the starting battery for charging.

If you have an outboard and email me, I can send you a diagram of this simple system as well as on-off-both battery connections with or without solar cells.

[gonzo]

Marine wire is fine strand which has less resistance. Whatever you do, don't use house wire.

[Mark Emaus]

You will get a lot of different advice on marine wire. I like to use marine but there are more boats out there without marine wire than those that use it. The main points of marine wire are that it is tinned and the jacket is chemical and heat resistant. Both are important but I have had boats without and they did fine.

You don't say whether the boat is inboard or outboard. If outboard, the wiring is self contained in the manufacturers set up and can be completely separate from the second battery. the simplest system ties the negative posts of both batteries together permanently and has a single pole on-off switch to connect the house battery in parallel to the starting battery for charging.

If you have an outboard and email me, I can send you a diagram of this simple system as well as on-off-both battery connections with or without solar cells.

Thank Tom,

I sure take your news as very good. I couldn't see putting Marine wire through out this boat. The pontoon is a special setup. We have a vw engine attached to an Alpha I gen 2 stern drive for shallow water use. So I will need run the charging system off the Alt of the Vw engine. The battries (2) will be some 10 feet from the Alt. and most of the switching is another 8 feet on the helm. I am thinking of running the trolling motor, and some flood lighting off 1 bat, and the engine gauges and starter off the other bat. If you have any diagrahms that are simple and what is needed to run both battries off the one Alt on the engine, it would be a big help. I have wired many homes, but this 12volt stuff is giving me a headache.lol.

Wire size is a big concern for me.

Mark

[Frosty]

Theres is house wire and there is house wire.

The marine stuff (if you can get it) is in my opinion great for one job but its all red and black with poor white sheath.

Fine muti core without tinning is what I have used. Its not house wire but its not marine iether.

All Ive seen in Marine specs is one size only, but then the shops don't stock others or there isnt any. If no one is buying it then they wont stock it.

For instance what would you use to feed an LED indicator? and then what would you use for starter feed. Cant get Marine in that or can you?

[TollyWally]

Around here there are all kinds and sizes of marine wire available. I think you can get adequate service out of non tinned wire and better service out of marine wire. It kind of depends just how reliable and bulletproof you want to make it.

Personally, I use damn good marine wire and solder and shrinkwrap everything. I only want to do it once if at all possible. I think Tom makes a good point that there are more boats running around without it than with it. But I suppose the failure rate might be a little higher. In short you pay your money and take your chances. I'd like to see that wiring diagram too if Tom could be persuaded to post it.

[TerryKing]

This would be the decider for me..

Regular THW type wire (untinned) [Often labeled "machine tool wire"] has a double abrasion-resistant jacket that works well.

But in salt environment if there are exposed plain copper strands eventually there is some corrosion. And if the jacket is damaged and the strands are exposed to salt splash, I've seen serious corrosion on some boats after a few years.

My freshwater boat with off-the-electrical-supply-house-shelf THW or THWN is fine after 30 years...

[CDK]

Who decides what is marine wire and what isn't? If you pay a ridiculously high price anything ordinary becomes "marine".
There is commercial wire and there is mil. spec. wire. The latter is very hard to handle because it has a very tough double sheath. Its application is not limited to military objects, the aviation industry is probably the largest consumer. I would not recommend it for amateur use because it is difficult to strip without special tools and has no advantage over commercial wire unless it is used in combination with mil.spec. connectors and terminals.

Stranded wire can be tinned without being '"marine". Most Asian main cords for computers use tinned wire.

Much more important is using the proper size, based on the currents to be expected and the cable length.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/onboard-electronics-controls/simple-wiring-diagram-small-craft-27778.html

[gonzo]

CDK. If you are an engineer you should know who decides what is marine and what is not. There are specifications on wire for different applications. Sometimes they overlap.

[CDK]

CDK. If you are an engineer you should know who decides what is marine and what is not. There are specifications on wire for different applications. Sometimes they overlap.

If we were discussing paint, sealant or alloys marine specs make sense. For many other items it doesn't.
I have dark blue towels on board. Marine blue....

[Mark Emaus]

TY CDK'

I printed your diagraham and it is a little much for my application. It did give me some ideas, but I was wondering if you had a less complex drawing. We are only putting this on a 20 foot pontoon.

Mark

[CDK]

TY CDK'

I printed your diagraham and it is a little much for my application. It did give me some ideas, but I was wondering if you had a less complex drawing. We are only putting this on a 20 foot pontoon.

Mark

No, I have nothing simpler. But you could adapt it by eradicating everything you do not need. For a pontoon, that probably means there will be not much left.

[gonzo]

If you are using a VW engine, the wiring diagram is on any mechanical manual. The battery wiring is included in a marine battery switch.

[Mark Emaus]

Are you saying a Battery Switch or Battery Isolator? Or are they the same?

Mark

[Fanie]

I agree with CDK. Most of the 'marine' wires is only marine because the label says so.

The things to consider has been mentioned before. Use tinned wire, it oxidizes less than copper wire. The 'mil' wire had it's insulation melted to the conductor so there is no place for moisture to penetrate the insulation.

One other thing often not considered when wiring is done is the current carrying capability of the wire. Mostly the green oxidation you find in older wiring is too much current or a poor connection that causes excessive current for a relative small conductive area.

I would in any boat use tinned mufti stranded copper wire that can handle the current comfortably, then use an insulation media like conformal coating to seal all open wiring. Even hair spray works !

Insulation does not matter much, you do not need a special type insulation like the mil wires. Normal PVC insulation is fine if you shield it from the sun with a sleeve or some cover, otherwise it may become brittle over time. Other than that you won't have problems.

Battery switches or battery isolators are exactly the same thing. It is only a high current capable relay, and to be fancy gets called a solenoid switch. You should design your circuitry so they are normally in the off position, the excitement coil can draw a bit of current and will use unnecessary power. I replaced some of them on my Yamaha's trim and tilt with el cheapo ones from a car spares shop and they look as good as the originals at 20 times the price.

[Mark Emaus]

Fanne,

I was looking at Bat Isolators and bat switches. I appears that the isolator is an auto switching and the bat switch looks like a manual 4 place switch.

Is that what you are talking about drawing current with the islolator but the bat switch turned to the off position will not draw current?

Mark

[MidMichigan]

Well I am new to the board but can't resist to put in my two cents. My only comment is that the electricity goes through wire differently with DC current than it does with AC. Yet 99% of the wire for sale is for AC. With DC the electrons tend to stay on the outside of the strand instead of going through the strand evenly. I doubt this would have much effect on wire heating up from more resistance or voltage drop on small loads. If you take this into effect though on large loads in can make a big difference. That is why wire with large DC loads have many more strand in in. For example leads on your welder or your jumper cables. (Unless you have one of those $10.00 pair.)

Might want to keep that in mind when installing the larger wire for batteries and starter motors on the engine. Its been a long time since I opened a electrical theory book but, I if I remember, it is called an eddy current.

I wonder if the wire labeled marine has more strands in it than wire without the marine label???

[Fanie]

Hi Mark,
The problem with manual switches is you can create arcs and sparks because they do not switch as fast as the electrical ones. The solenoid switches works electrical. They have a coil you apply 12V to that smacks the contacts close, when 12V to the coil is removed usually a spring pulls it open. It is this 12V coil drawing the current, can be 2A to 12A depending on the solenoid you use. They are made for switching high amps, and most motors use them in various models for the starter motors also.

I don't know what a 'bat' switch / isolator is.

I wonder if the wire labeled marine has more strands in it than wire without the marine label???
It is not the amount of strands that is important, but the sq surface of the conductor. If the wire is installed and doesn't have to bend or flex you can even use a solid wire. The thinner (finer) wire strands are the more they can flex or bend without beginning to break. Sharp bending of wires is never a good idea. The more gradual it bends and the longer the flexing piece the longer the wire will last.

[Mark Emaus]

Thanks Fanie,

Ok here are some questions.

Wholesale marine has a Battery isolator that will handle 70 amps. What I am trying to do on a 20 pontoon boat is have a bat for the engine start and one for the lights, trolling motor, nav lights, etc.

I want to run a 10 gage wire 7 feet from the engine to where the 2 bats will be. At that point I want to attach the bat isolator to the 10 gage wire. Then attach the 2 battery wires to the other ends of the bat isolator.

Does this sound like the right idea?

I will also have a 2 gauge wire running from the engine bat to the starter.

Mark

[missinginaction]

DC electrical is actually quite simple compared to AC (and it won't kill you if you make a mistake). I'd recommend that you go to your local library and ask for the following book.

Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual by Nigel Calder.

http://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-Essential/dp/0071432388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255557102&sr=8-1

You can buy it from Amazon but hey, we're in a recession!

Study the chapter on designing a balanced electrical system. All the information you need is contained in this text and Mr. Calder is a recognized authority in the field.

For what it's worth I buy my wire from an internet retailer called genuinedealz.

www.genuinedealz.com

and believe it or not you can get some good pricing on electrical assessories at:

www.dogbytecomputer.com

Blue sea systems also has a good site. You can use the DC circuit wizard to determine the size wiring you need and then order it from genuinedealz.

www.bluesea.com

Really though, if you take the time to read Mr. Calders book you'll not only learn much that applies to your boat you'll also gain knowledge that will help you with all kinds of electrical diagnosis and repair.

Regarding the type of wire to use......I'd always use marine rated wire. For reliability, for insurance purposes and because it's better quality and therefore less likely to fail out there. Just MHO. Besides, how much are you going to use? Are you really going to save much?

MIA

[pamarine]

In my mind marine-grade wire meets the following criteria:

Type 3 Stranded Tinned Copper Conductors.

Water, chemical, and heat resistant (105C) insulation. Most is PVC but a couple other compounds are used by companies such as Ancor.

Rated for 600V

Sized according to American Wire Gage, not SAE.

Manufacturers of Marine-Grade wire are Ancor, Cobra, Pacer, and Berkshire.

Keep in mind that from a regulatory standpoint, the USCG (and similar agencys in other countries) do have requirements for wire being used on boats regarding construction, size, and insulation. Make sure that any wiring job you undertake is in accordance with the regulations at the least, and industry best-practices at best.

[Fanie]

Mark,
I will run one wire to the starter and another to the accessories. The starter motor will cause a voltage drop over the wire, so to minimise the effect on the accessories they should not share the same supply cable.

In fact, I would highly recommend that you use two batteries, one for the starter motor and another for the accessories.

To charge both batteries from the same source you need a high current schotkey diode and a relay. The charge supply should go to the starter motor battery, from the starter motor battery the pos is fed through the high current schotkey diode and a NO relay contact to the pos of the accessories battery. The relay coil gets connected to the ignition of the motor that generates the power, so whenever the power generator feeds to the starter battery, it will at the same time charge the accessories battery.

The high power schotkey diode has very little foreward drop over it allowing the accessories battery to charge to the same level as the starter battery, while also preventing the accessories battery to supply power to the starter battery. Iow the accessories battery is isolated from the starter when you start, when the motor has started however the accessories battery is also charged. When the power generator is switched off, the relay opens and the two batteries are isolated from each other. This means lengthy use of the accessories battery will not drain the starter battery and you always have a fresh starter battery.

You cannot use common si diodes, the voltage drop over then is too much (0.8V)

[Fanie]

The starter battery pos can be taken directly to the solenoid that feeds the starter motor.

The accessories should go through a fuse box so that a problem on any wire will open the fuse and the rest of the accessories doesn't get affected.

You also get mutifuses or polly fuses. I have used these extensively in various apps and they are marvelous. A short on a fuse's output will cause the fuse to heat up and it goes 'open circuit', although drawing very little current to maintain the heat to remain open circuit. As soon as you remove the short and draws no current, the fuse cools down and you can use the circuit as before at it's rated current. It sure beats finding the spare fuses and they work over and over and over... you get the idea.

Multi fuses are available in small (50mA) to 9A ratings. If you cannot find a higher rating one then you can parallel equal sized ones but you have to thermally join them with heat transfer paste (the white stuff you saw on power transistors and their heatsink) so they would react simultaniously.

Remember a fuse rating should be higher than the current drawed, ie a spot light drawing 5A should get a 9A fuse.

[Fanie]

The starter cable should be either crimped professionally with a decent crimping tool, or better still it should be soldered in a solder bath, or both. Don't go skimpy on the quality here, a loose or poorly connected wire can cause one endless problems, and can be a real pain to identify.

[pamarine]

Mark,

I will echo Fanie's Two-battery approach. It has a few pluses, one being that your accessories don't drain your starting battery and the other is that you can select batteries that have the optimum construction for the application (means longer life).

As for joining the two systems for charging, I would go with an Automatic Charging relay from Blue Sea Systems or similar device over a traditional battery isolator. The main advantages of the ACRs are they are disconnected during starting (no spike to sensitive electronics), the starting battery will recharge before the house battery (voltage sensing relay only closes after starting battery reaches around 80%, which means that you won't turn off the engine and find the starting battery dead because the alternator was charging all batteries simultaneously), and in the event of failure the relay defaults to open (isiloators are just diodes witha heatsink, so when the diode fails, and they all do, there is nothing preventing the battery from trying to turn the alternator or charge the other battery, niether of which are good things).

As for the crimping, most West Marines have rigging crimpers in the store available for customer use (in store of course). While they are not designed for electrical connections and will not meet ABYC certification, they do make an excellent crimp connection for battery lugs (I've tested the connection both electrically and mechanically and it is equal to the $500 AMP Box crimpers I use). Also, Battery Lugs are the only terminals able to be affixed solely by soldering (per ABYC) so if you did want to solder them feel free. I prefer crimping and use the following method: I fill the lug (they are closed on the ring end) about halfway with dielectric grease, insert the stripped cable into the lug, crimp the barrel, and the put heavy-duty heat shrink over the entire connection. It's kind of a belt & braces approach but I have yet to have any corrosion even when the insulation is compromised.

[Mark Emaus]

Home > Products by Vendor > Guest > Guest 70 Amp Battery Isolator - 1 Alternator, 2 Batteries Guest 70 Amp Battery Isolator - 1 Alternator, 2 Batteries


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Product SKU: GST-2501
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Product Description:

Battery Isolators
Optimized heat sink design for maximum performance
Minimized voltage drop across isolation barrier using Schotky type diodes
Each output individually capable of carrying the full alternator load
Fixed cable posts for secure connections
Waterproof components for harsh environment performance - year after year
NOTE: If used on a 24V system, boat must be equipped with 24VDC alternator
Guest Battery Isolators Feature:
Solid state design
Rubber wire caps
Marine grade construction
Two-year warranty -Through Guest
70 Amp Battery Isolator
Usage: 1 Alternator / 2 Batteries
Max. Output per Alternator: 70 Amps
Operation: 12V to 48V
Dimensions: 5.4” x 4.5” x 2.6”

Fanie,

this is what i was talking about. is this what you are calling a schotkey diode?
If not, will this work?
Mark

[pamarine]

Home > Products by Vendor > Guest > Guest 70 Amp Battery Isolator - 1 Alternator, 2 Batteries Guest 70 Amp Battery Isolator - 1 Alternator, 2 Batteries


Larger Image Manufacturer: Guest
Product SKU: GST-2501
Quantity in Basket: None
Retail Price: $64.11
Our Price: $44.76
You Save: $19.35 (30.2 %)
Reward Points: 45



Quantity:


Product Rating: Not yet rated. Write a Review!



Product Description:

Battery Isolators
Optimized heat sink design for maximum performance
Minimized voltage drop across isolation barrier using Schotky type diodes
Each output individually capable of carrying the full alternator load
Fixed cable posts for secure connections
Waterproof components for harsh environment performance - year after year
NOTE: If used on a 24V system, boat must be equipped with 24VDC alternator
Guest Battery Isolators Feature:
Solid state design
Rubber wire caps
Marine grade construction
Two-year warranty -Through Guest
70 Amp Battery Isolator
Usage: 1 Alternator / 2 Batteries
Max. Output per Alternator: 70 Amps
Operation: 12V to 48V
Dimensions: 5.4” x 4.5” x 2.6”

Fanie,

this is what i was talking about. is this what you are calling a schotkey diode?
If not, will this work?
Mark

Not exactly what he was talking about (diode yes, but no relay on an isolator), yes it will work, see my response above regarding relays vs isolators.

[Mark Emaus]

You guys have been to much! Thank you for the help. Who in the U.S. carries the Blue Seas Systems ACRs?

[pamarine]

You guys have been to much! Thank you for the help. Who in the U.S. carries the Blue Seas Systems ACRs?

Retailers would be West Marine, Defender, BoatersWorld.com (still in business ironically), and most regional and local marine suppliers. Bass Pro Shops and Cabela may also be able to get them for you as well, but I am unsure.

[Mark Emaus]

Thanks Pa,

I just looked on west marine and they have a 120 amp acr. Do you think I need something that big for nav lights, trolling motor, flood lights, and fish finders?

Mark

[Mark Emaus]

One other question Pa.

Do you need a battery switch along with the ACR?

[pamarine]

no (to the size), they used to have a 60 amp ACR, Blue sea discontinued it for the one you are looking at (99.95 i think) so...

As for the switch, get that switch, it keeps the starting battery and house seperate unless you select the combine position (unlike 1-2-both switches) but here's the trick, by the ACR and Switch seperately from west, it's cheaper than buying the combo pack.

[Mark Emaus]

Pa,

You have been a great help!

Thank you,

Mark

I might have some more question tomorrow after I think about this for a while.

Thanks again

Mark

[pamarine]

Pa,

You have been a great help!

Thank you,

Mark

I might have some more question tomorrow after I think about this for a while.

Thanks again

Mark

no problem, it's what I do all day. My wife hates it when i jump out of bed at 3AM and draw up a shematic for something at work, lol.

If ya need anything more specific you can always shoot me a pm or e-mail via the forums.

[Mark Emaus]

Ok PA,

Here is another question for you. Would the ignition/starter switch work in place of the bat switch? If not where do you place the bat switch in the wiring diagram?

As I see how I may draw this up with 2 seperate bat systems. I would run a 12 ga wire from the helm starter/ignition switch to the starter, then a 2ga from the starter to the alt., then a 2 ga wire from the starter to the engine battery, then a 4 ga from the engine bat to the ACR, then a 4 ga from the ACR to the house Battery, then a 10 ga wire from the house Battery to the main fuse box/Accessory pannel. The accessory panel would then feed the lights, trolling motor, etc. Other than the wires attaching both batteries to the acr, I don't see how the 2 bats would interfer with each other. The acr (I think) is suppose to protect against surges to the accessories.?

Mark

Mark

[pamarine]

Ok PA,

Here is another question for you. Would the ignition/starter switch work in place of the bat switch? If not where do you place the bat switch in the wiring diagram?

As I see how I may draw this up with 2 seperate bat systems. I would run a 12 ga wire from the helm starter/ignition switch to the starter, then a 2ga from the starter to the alt., then a 2 ga wire from the starter to the engine battery, then a 4 ga from the engine bat to the ACR, then a 4 ga from the ACR to the house Battery, then a 10 ga wire from the house Battery to the main fuse box/Accessory pannel. The accessory panel would then feed the lights, trolling motor, etc. Other than the wires attaching both batteries to the acr, I don't see how the 2 bats would interfer with each other. The acr (I think) is suppose to protect against surges to the accessories.?

Mark

Mark

Ok Mark, I'll give you a complete diagram but I need to know a few things first:

What engine (I assume it's an OB since it'll be on a pontoon)? What other Electrical devices are you going to run? Be a specific as possible Make and model#'s would be great.

[Mark Emaus]

Thanks Pa.

We are running a vw air cooled engine with an alt that has an internal regulator. The engine is attached to a Alpha 1 gen 2 stern drive that is using an electric acuator. We want to have 2 batteries, one will run the starter on the engine, the actuator for the stern drive, 3 engine gauges, and the nav lights. The other battery will run 3 flood lights, trolling motor, 3 recpts. fuel gauge, gps and fish finder. From the engine to the batteries is about 6 feet, from the batteries to the helm is about 10 feet and from the engine to the helm is about 8 feet. They all form a triangle. That is about it. Not a very complicated system other than a novice trying to figure ot out. lol

Thanks PA.

Mark

[pamarine]

Do you have the Model# or any other ID for the alternator

Are the Nav Lights Incadescent or LED?

What model GPS and Fishfinder?

What Model Floodlights?

Dimensions of the Pontoon Deck and Location of helm on the deck (Top down layout type thing)?

KISS is a great thing btw:D

[TollyWally]

"KISS is a great thing btw"

Truer words were never spoken!

[Frosty]

Air cooled engines such as the beetle are infact oil cooled, say 40/60 leaning to the oil side.

Although they cool by air the air needs to be moving across it.

Running the engine for flood lights is a waste of fuel.

I would suggest a small gen, you then have all the power you want.

[Mark Emaus]

Do you have the Model# or any other ID for the alternator

Are the Nav Lights Incadescent or LED?

What model GPS and Fishfinder?

What Model Floodlights?

Dimensions of the Pontoon Deck and Location of helm on the deck (Top down layout type thing)?

KISS is a great thing btw:D

The pontoon dimensions are 8x 20 the helm will sit onthe right side 5 feet from the front of the boat.

The batteries will be on the left side aft of centerline. About 12 feet in wiring as it 90s when it runs straight towards the front of the boat and then 90s over to the helm.

The engine will sit 5 feet from the back of the boat with the stern drive about 1 foot from the very back.

The trolling motor is in the front and so about 6 to 7 feet of wire needed to the fuse box which is on the helm.

Nav lights are incadescent one on each side in the front, (about a foot back) and the white nav light on the aft left side.

The fuel tank is in the extreme back left with the wire for the gauge running along side the nav light and turning 90 degrees towards the helm 5 feet from the front.

The gps, (mounted on the helm) is a garmin 496. The fish finder will also be mounted on the helm but I have not picked one out yet.

Flood lights will have 3. 2 are mounted 5 feet from the front one on each side about 1 to 2 feet from the edges of the boat. The other will be mounted on the aft right side 5 feet from the back for use on engine compartment. I have not bought the floods either as I have not found anything I liked yet. Sugestions? They need to be very bright as we are going through stumps and heavy weeds so we can miss the big stuff. lol

There are also 3 recpts.,(like cigirate lighter) 2 up front near the flood lights and on in the back by the other flood light.

I want to put the ACR next to the batteries in the Batter Box.

I do not have the model number on the Alt. as the engine is being tricked up and is not here with me right now. I ask the other day about it and was told the reg was internal and that the Alt was a later model vw alt 1975 ish.

Thanks PA

Mark

[Mark Emaus]

Air cooled engines such as the beetle are infact oil cooled, say 40/60 leaning to the oil side.

Although they cool by air the air needs to be moving across it.

Running the engine for flood lights is a waste of fuel.

I would suggest a small gen, you then have all the power you want.

I appreciate your expertice, but we really don't care about fuel. This engine doen't burn enough to warrant another gen to run flood lights.

[Mark Emaus]

Sorry PA,

I forgot the gauges! The wires will run almost straight up the canter of the boat and then 90 to the helm, (about 12 feet). I want an oil preasure gauge, rpm gauge, cht gauge and amp meter gauge.

Mark

[pamarine]

Okie doke, I'll see what I can come with for you over the weekend. Won't be anything fancy but at least you'll have something to work from.

[Mark Emaus]

You sure don't need anything fancy....I am not a fancy person. This is way above what I was expecting for help on the forum..

Thank You PA

Mark