Design Challenge: Trapwing-"on-deck" ballast-12'-22'

[rapscallion]

http://www.ricardteixido.com/inspire/weid-tech1.jpg

[Doug Lord]

http://www.ricardteixido.com/inspire/weid-tech1.jpg
--------
Thanks Raps-what might have been!

pictures: "weird tech"=rendering of the NZ challenger to DC before it was seen; blue hull=whitehouse/richards flying canting keel-actually being built; other=rc model to experiment with movable ballast(not mine).

[rapscallion]

This might be a thread hijack.... my apologies if it is too far off topic, but it does seem related...

Are there any tandem keel examples of a racing sailboat? Tandem keels might be a better platform for a foil assisted lead belly.

[Doug Lord]

This might be a thread hijack.... my apologies if it is too far off topic, but it does seem related...

Are there any tandem keel examples of a racing sailboat? Tandem keels might be a better platform for a foil assisted lead belly.

---------------------
Why tandem? Looks like DSS works well on some mono's...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hugh-welbournss-dss-25-a-32138.html

[rapscallion]

That's interesting... I missed that one. Has the boat been raced?

[Doug Lord]

That's interesting... I missed that one. Has the boat been raced?

------------------------
Yeah-and it won big time ....

[Cheesy]

------------------------
Yeah-and it won big time ....

Have you got a link to the results? That way we can actually see what it won against. I have raced against a DSS boat and we spanked it something stupid

[Doug Lord]

All you'd have to do is look at the thread referenced earlier:

Congratulations,Hugh! One of the first examples of "foil assist" on a mono
hull keelboat shows her potential.....

Sailing Anarchy today:
"The new Welbourn DSS 25 doing its first race, the “Bay to Bay” in Queensland, Australia with plenty of sport boats and trailer sailors - 70 boats and over 2 days, so two races of about 30 miles. "Brace Brace Brace" came 1st both times in monohulls and knocked off most of the multis too.

There are plenty of seriously quick boats doing the event but even though the guys had only done a day’s testing since launch they got the gun both days. They reckon there is plenty more pace to come,.."
from Sail-World:

Type 2 Sports Monohull Results "Bay to Bay 2010"
Overall Elapsed Type 2 Wide Monohull first Place 102 Kevin Costin Brace Brace Brace Welbourn 24 RQYS Qld
Overall Elapsed Type 2 Sports Monohull first Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASBA NSW
Overall Corrected S.M.S. Type 2 Sports Monohull second Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASBA NSW – Perpetual Cup
Overall Corrected S.M.S. Type 2 Sports Monohull first Place 118 Andrew Wicklund As-If Oak Sportsboat RQYS Qld
Overall Corrected P.B.H. Type 2 Sports Monohull third Place 131 Peter Barter Escapade Elliott 7 CYC ACT
Overall Corrected P.B.H. Type 2 Sports Monohull second Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASSB NSW


05/11/10 Post # 20

[rapscallion]

That is really interesting! I completely missed this one! using foils to reduce the need for crew/ballast on a sportboat is the next big step IMO. It would make upwind plaining a reality for average joes like me.

[Cheesy]

All you'd have to do is look at the thread referenced earlier:

Congratulations,Hugh! One of the first examples of "foil assist" on a mono
hull keelboat shows her potential.....

Sailing Anarchy today:
"The new Welbourn DSS 25 doing its first race, the “Bay to Bay” in Queensland, Australia with plenty of sport boats and trailer sailors - 70 boats and over 2 days, so two races of about 30 miles. "Brace Brace Brace" came 1st both times in monohulls and knocked off most of the multis too.

There are plenty of seriously quick boats doing the event but even though the guys had only done a day’s testing since launch they got the gun both days. They reckon there is plenty more pace to come,.."
from Sail-World:

Type 2 Sports Monohull Results "Bay to Bay 2010"
Overall Elapsed Type 2 Wide Monohull first Place 102 Kevin Costin Brace Brace Brace Welbourn 24 RQYS Qld
Overall Elapsed Type 2 Sports Monohull first Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASBA NSW
Overall Corrected S.M.S. Type 2 Sports Monohull second Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASBA NSW – Perpetual Cup
Overall Corrected S.M.S. Type 2 Sports Monohull first Place 118 Andrew Wicklund As-If Oak Sportsboat RQYS Qld
Overall Corrected P.B.H. Type 2 Sports Monohull third Place 131 Peter Barter Escapade Elliott 7 CYC ACT
Overall Corrected P.B.H. Type 2 Sports Monohull second Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASSB NSW


05/11/10 Post # 20

Ok I still dont buy all the hype, looking a bit deeper into it, in this race they beat a T8 by 6min in a 5hr race, thats not all that impresive really, especially when you have a look here at the rankings of the current crop of NZ sport boats

http://www.racetrack.org.nz/category.php?categoryid=5

The T8 is along way from the top, in fact look at how many 6.5m boats are faster. I will accept though that BBB is a very new boat so is not necessarily sorted.

[Doug Lord]

Ok I still dont buy all the hype, looking a bit deeper into it, in this race they beat a T8 by 6min in a 5hr race, thats not all that impresive really, especially when you have a look here at the rankings of the current crop of NZ sport boats

http://www.racetrack.org.nz/category.php?categoryid=5

The T8 is along way from the top, in fact look at how many 6.5m boats are faster. I will accept though that BBB is a very new boat so is not necessarily sorted.
------------------
Yeah, very new! Damn good results for the first race in a brand new boat using a brand new technology.

[Cheesy]

------------------
Yeah, very new! Damn good results for the first race in a brand new boat using a brand new technology.

Not really, the T8 it beat is not particularly fast, the S650 I have been sailing on was also winning straight out of the box, and Im guessing would be faster than BBB and probably easier to sail as well

[Doug Lord]

Not really, the T8 it beat is not particularly fast, the S650 I have been sailing on was also winning straight out of the box, and Im guessing would be faster than BBB and probably easier to sail as well
-------------
Right,sure.

[Paul B]

Ok I still dont buy all the hype, looking a bit deeper into it, in this race they beat a T8 by 6min in a 5hr race, thats not all that impresive really,

I understand the T8 had a nice lead over the B^3 until a mechanical breakdown. So basically you had an oversized skiff beating up a fleet of mostly dual purpose trailer sailors that they would have dominated even if they had no extraneous foil.

I always wonder why these new technologies don't apply scientific method. There are many benchmark designs that could have been use to prove (or disprove) this technology.

A used Melges 24 could have been acquired for far less than building the oversized skiff, and it would have been easy to see if the new foil was really helping.

[Cheesy]

I understand the T8 had a nice lead over the B^3 until a mechanical breakdown. So basically you had an oversized skiff beating up a fleet of mostly dual purpose trailer sailors that they would have dominated even if they had no extraneous foil.

I always wonder why these new technologies don't apply scientific method. There are many benchmark designs that could have been use to prove (or disprove) this technology.

A used Melges 24 could have been acquired for far less than building the oversized skiff, and it would have been easy to see if the new foil was really helping.

I completely agree, if the builders/owners or whoever really want bragging rights line it up against something like Custard Truck (Shaw 7, very much an over grown skiff and fast as hell) or one of the fast oz 8m boats, not a trailer sailor (although a very fast one). I do suspect that it may be someone other than the above listed people who want bragging rights though.....

[Doug Lord]

You guys don't read much do you? There is a widespread, extensive development program going on with Mr. Welbourn-from small boats to Wally's... It is flat pitiful to DIS an accomplishment like Brace-not only a brand new boat but a brand new technology! None of the boats in that regatta can make that claim for that race.
It's amazing that instead of giving the guys kudos for having done so well with the first design using a new technology you try to knock the whole concept-you can't get more uninformed or techno-phobic than that.

[Cheesy]

You guys don't read much do you? There is a widespread, extensive development program going on with Mr. Welbourn-from small boats to Wally's... It is flat pitiful to DIS an accomplishment like Brace-not only a brand new boat but a brand new technology! None of the boats in that regatta can make that claim for that race.
It's amazing that instead of giving the guys kudos for having done so well with the first design using a new technology you try to knock the whole concept-you can't get more uninformed or techno-phobic than that.

They did well in that they finished a 5hr race in a new boat without breaking it or having any big issues. Beating a T8 in this boat is not, or should not be a big accomplishment. Im not saying it is slow but Im pretty sure that there would be at least a handful of NZ sport boats which are faster

It is also not a brand new technology, I was racing against a DSS boat earlier this year before BBB was built. Interestingly there was a non DSS version of the boat at the regatta as well and it consistently beat the DSS boat.

[Doug Lord]

And once again the FACTS:
All you'd have to do is look at the thread referenced earlier:

Congratulations,Hugh! One of the first examples of "foil assist" on a mono
hull keelboat shows her potential.....

Sailing Anarchy today:
"The new Welbourn DSS 25 doing its first race, the “Bay to Bay” in Queensland, Australia with plenty of sport boats and trailer sailors - 70 boats and over 2 days, so two races of about 30 miles. "Brace Brace Brace" came 1st both times in monohulls and knocked off most of the multis too.

There are plenty of seriously quick boats doing the event but even though the guys had only done a day’s testing since launch they got the gun both days. They reckon there is plenty more pace to come,.."
---
from Sail-World:

Type 2 Sports Monohull Results "Bay to Bay 2010"
Overall Elapsed Type 2 Wide Monohull first Place 102 Kevin Costin Brace Brace Brace Welbourn 24 RQYS Qld
Overall Elapsed Type 2 Sports Monohull first Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASBA NSW
Overall Corrected S.M.S. Type 2 Sports Monohull second Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASBA NSW – Perpetual Cup
Overall Corrected S.M.S. Type 2 Sports Monohull first Place 118 Andrew Wicklund As-If Oak Sportsboat RQYS Qld
Overall Corrected P.B.H. Type 2 Sports Monohull third Place 131 Peter Barter Escapade Elliott 7 CYC ACT
Overall Corrected P.B.H. Type 2 Sports Monohull second Place 109 Graham Coffey Rush Thompson 8 ASSB NSW


05/11/10 Post # 20

[Cheesy]

So what were the other seriously quick boats?

[Paul B]

So what were the other seriously quick boats?

Maybe those E7s that finished 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 10th, and 11th? Oh, does that indicate maybe the cream of the sportboat fleet wasn't there?


I have linked to this video in the past. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9OZiSvBMu0

This is the first prototype built to prove the system would work on a narrow, low stability hull. Hmmm, doesn't look promising. The porpoising and spinning out while flying a small sailplan is suspect.

Of course the new skiff style boat is very different from the narrow, low stability types that this system is supposed to help so much. If the DSS works so well why does the skiff need racks?