pamarine
10-01-2009, 09:14 PM
Looking through the gallery of designs I realised that my CAD skills are sorely lacking in the aesthetic department. Are the teak decks upholstery designs etc textures or are they modeled elements?
View Full Version : CAD Renders
Chris Ostlind
10-02-2009, 10:34 AM
Generally, they are bit mapped textures applied to modeled surfaces.
pamarine
10-02-2009, 10:43 AM
That's what I thought. Is there a free library of such textures available for download?
Alik
10-02-2009, 10:53 AM
That's not really important; most of shiny renderings are lacking of sence.
Boat design is not a software competition :)
Boat design is not a software competition :)
Chris Ostlind
10-02-2009, 11:00 AM
That's what I thought. Is there a free library of such textures available for download?
Depending on the software you are running, there are several shareware and even freeware libraries available... or you can make your own bitmap textures to wrap. Delve into Google a bit and you'll find the resources.
Depending on the software you are running, there are several shareware and even freeware libraries available... or you can make your own bitmap textures to wrap. Delve into Google a bit and you'll find the resources.
Chris Ostlind
10-02-2009, 11:10 AM
That's not really important; most of shiny renderings are lacking of sence.
I guess that depends on one's control of surfaces, lighting techniques and the software being used, as well as one's level of subjectivity.
Boat design is not a software competition :)
That will probably bring objections from the software companies servicing the marine industry. If one extends that line of thought, then I suppose that a drafting table, T-square and all the typical tools one might see in use are also inappropriate. At least that's what I hear from the guys who never use a drawing and simply eyeball all of their boat design/build work.
From where I sit, the whole thing is about competition, just as are virtually all of the pursuits of mankind. Having the software guys and the use of their products right in the thick of things, makes complete sense to me. The boys do have to make a living... ;-)
I guess that depends on one's control of surfaces, lighting techniques and the software being used, as well as one's level of subjectivity.
Boat design is not a software competition :)
That will probably bring objections from the software companies servicing the marine industry. If one extends that line of thought, then I suppose that a drafting table, T-square and all the typical tools one might see in use are also inappropriate. At least that's what I hear from the guys who never use a drawing and simply eyeball all of their boat design/build work.
From where I sit, the whole thing is about competition, just as are virtually all of the pursuits of mankind. Having the software guys and the use of their products right in the thick of things, makes complete sense to me. The boys do have to make a living... ;-)
Alik
10-02-2009, 12:05 PM
The problem is that some designers and their customers are more obsessed with photo-realism of pictures than with practical solutions and real-working systems. Now there is no need to ensure safety, performance, comfort - show nice rendered picture with water and sunset, and the deal is done.
Then, 2-3 decades ago a guy starting in boat design had to spend years exercising with splines and manual drafting, gaining real experience and good eye for curves and shapes. Today the one who got the software is becoming 'boat designer' in 2 weeks and is using 'wizard' to generate a 'hull', the result is poor in 90% of cases.
So I really think good design is sellable without advanced renderings. Our renderings are more technical style but it works.
And now the story: one our customer wanted to have 'better photo-realistic renderings' of the design. We sent 3D to their ‘rendering artist’. The result became evident to us in IBI magazine (see report from Mumbai boat show 2009): some software guy has turned-on frozen layers of 3D showing older options of arch and roof. So on the renderings the hardtop looked like ugly sandwich supported by duplicate arch. This 'rendering' was placed on the boatshow, in primer location. So is there any sense in such renderings? :) Rendering is here. (http://www.cartradeindia.com/car-bike-news/mahindra-odyssea-unveils-fibreglass-power-boats-at-mumbai-110836.html)
Then, 2-3 decades ago a guy starting in boat design had to spend years exercising with splines and manual drafting, gaining real experience and good eye for curves and shapes. Today the one who got the software is becoming 'boat designer' in 2 weeks and is using 'wizard' to generate a 'hull', the result is poor in 90% of cases.
So I really think good design is sellable without advanced renderings. Our renderings are more technical style but it works.
And now the story: one our customer wanted to have 'better photo-realistic renderings' of the design. We sent 3D to their ‘rendering artist’. The result became evident to us in IBI magazine (see report from Mumbai boat show 2009): some software guy has turned-on frozen layers of 3D showing older options of arch and roof. So on the renderings the hardtop looked like ugly sandwich supported by duplicate arch. This 'rendering' was placed on the boatshow, in primer location. So is there any sense in such renderings? :) Rendering is here. (http://www.cartradeindia.com/car-bike-news/mahindra-odyssea-unveils-fibreglass-power-boats-at-mumbai-110836.html)
pamarine
10-02-2009, 01:54 PM
But Renderings catch peoples eyes at shows and get them in the door. :D
Alik
10-03-2009, 12:06 AM
But Renderings catch peoples eyes at shows and get them in the door. :D
Most of boats are never bought from renderings, only from seeing real product.
If we are talking about custom-designed boats say, for wealthy Arabs - yes, they will like the renderings with water, sunset, villa on background (don't show much of boat, show the environment, let them dream!). But they will like it for only for first two months, until they see something different... :D
Most of boats are never bought from renderings, only from seeing real product.
If we are talking about custom-designed boats say, for wealthy Arabs - yes, they will like the renderings with water, sunset, villa on background (don't show much of boat, show the environment, let them dream!). But they will like it for only for first two months, until they see something different... :D
pamarine
10-03-2009, 01:21 AM
Most of boats are never bought from renderings, only from seeing real product.
If we are talking about custom-designed boats say, for wealthy Arabs - yes, they will like the renderings with water, sunset, villa on background (don't show much of boat, show the environment, let them dream!). But they will like it for only for first two months, until they see something different... :D
lol, It's more to line the walls of an otherwise empty booth at boat shows:p
If we are talking about custom-designed boats say, for wealthy Arabs - yes, they will like the renderings with water, sunset, villa on background (don't show much of boat, show the environment, let them dream!). But they will like it for only for first two months, until they see something different... :D
lol, It's more to line the walls of an otherwise empty booth at boat shows:p
Chris Ostlind
10-03-2009, 09:56 AM
I don't know if they teach this in formal Naval Architecture programs.... but they should.
Recreational boats are bought, or built, principally because of someone's dreams. (with a taste of ego tossed-in for good measure)
The buyers/builders dream of where they will travel. They dream about the adventures they will encounter, how fast they will go, how many of their friends they can take along, what size fish they can haul out of the sea, that their wife, (or girlfriend (or mistress)) will be comfortable, etc., etc. It isn't until the imagination of the buyer is captured, that they begin to assess the technical side of the boat's potential. We've all done it. We have looked at the images provided for a new boat and simply moved on past the subject, not even looking at the spec sheet, the polar diagrams, etc.. We just aren't moved by the looks of the boat and can't see ourselves riding around in it, even if it does move heaven and earth from a pragmatic perspective.
Whether we like it, or not, while engaging in the process of designing craft for this market, we are in the suggestive, thought provoking business of weaving wonderful stories and potential fulfillment for the future owners of these boats.
Human beings, being primarily visually stimulated creatures, naturally gravitate to well-done illustrations of these proposed dream machines. Believe it, or not, most folks do not buy magazines that have endless pages of specifications with no rendered representations. Truth is, it's mostly the other way around.
Go watch little children when you place a stack of books in front of them. If you provide books that are picture driven stories, as well as books with no images and lots of words, you will see the kids move to the books with the illustrations and they will stay with those books even if they've seen them many times before. It's just human nature to enjoy powerful imagery that stimulates the imagination.
I am asked all the time for more imagery of my small craft. Since I have always been engaged in the business of creating images, (graphic designer, film maker, photographer) I have found that my previous life experiences have become powerful tools that help me to demonstrate my design skills. Yes, the boats have to make it to the water as final proof that they work, but that initial surge of interest is created through the use of nicely crafted renderings. It doesn't hurt that I have a decent capability for writing about my boats, as well, but the interest originates in the pictures.
All of my boats originate as hand sketches with pencil and paper. I fool around with the relationships of the forms, the angles, the technical solutions and the overall feel of the boat. These drawings then move to the computer as the tool of my choice for design. Computer generated renderings are a natural expression of the developed boat at that point.
Recreational boats are bought, or built, principally because of someone's dreams. (with a taste of ego tossed-in for good measure)
The buyers/builders dream of where they will travel. They dream about the adventures they will encounter, how fast they will go, how many of their friends they can take along, what size fish they can haul out of the sea, that their wife, (or girlfriend (or mistress)) will be comfortable, etc., etc. It isn't until the imagination of the buyer is captured, that they begin to assess the technical side of the boat's potential. We've all done it. We have looked at the images provided for a new boat and simply moved on past the subject, not even looking at the spec sheet, the polar diagrams, etc.. We just aren't moved by the looks of the boat and can't see ourselves riding around in it, even if it does move heaven and earth from a pragmatic perspective.
Whether we like it, or not, while engaging in the process of designing craft for this market, we are in the suggestive, thought provoking business of weaving wonderful stories and potential fulfillment for the future owners of these boats.
Human beings, being primarily visually stimulated creatures, naturally gravitate to well-done illustrations of these proposed dream machines. Believe it, or not, most folks do not buy magazines that have endless pages of specifications with no rendered representations. Truth is, it's mostly the other way around.
Go watch little children when you place a stack of books in front of them. If you provide books that are picture driven stories, as well as books with no images and lots of words, you will see the kids move to the books with the illustrations and they will stay with those books even if they've seen them many times before. It's just human nature to enjoy powerful imagery that stimulates the imagination.
I am asked all the time for more imagery of my small craft. Since I have always been engaged in the business of creating images, (graphic designer, film maker, photographer) I have found that my previous life experiences have become powerful tools that help me to demonstrate my design skills. Yes, the boats have to make it to the water as final proof that they work, but that initial surge of interest is created through the use of nicely crafted renderings. It doesn't hurt that I have a decent capability for writing about my boats, as well, but the interest originates in the pictures.
All of my boats originate as hand sketches with pencil and paper. I fool around with the relationships of the forms, the angles, the technical solutions and the overall feel of the boat. These drawings then move to the computer as the tool of my choice for design. Computer generated renderings are a natural expression of the developed boat at that point.
Alik
10-03-2009, 11:34 AM
Go watch little children when you place a stack of books in front of them. If you provide books that are picture driven stories, as well as books with no images and lots of words, you will see the kids move to the books with the illustrations and they will stay with those books even if they've seen them many times before.
My daughter's favorite book is Lamb's 'Ship Design and Construction'. The book looks thick and sound, besides it is black and white, she likes to go page by page, both volumes. She is 1.5 years old :)
These drawings then move to the computer as the tool of my choice for design. Computer generated renderings are a natural expression of the developed boat at that point.
Yes, but renderings are not the purpose of desgn. Real boat is a purpose. Renderings without boat behind do not sell, boat without renderings - sells.
But I agree with You. Unfortunately we are living in the world of consumption now, where eye-catching multi-color pictures and sweet slogans of salesmen are used to replace the reality.
My daughter's favorite book is Lamb's 'Ship Design and Construction'. The book looks thick and sound, besides it is black and white, she likes to go page by page, both volumes. She is 1.5 years old :)
These drawings then move to the computer as the tool of my choice for design. Computer generated renderings are a natural expression of the developed boat at that point.
Yes, but renderings are not the purpose of desgn. Real boat is a purpose. Renderings without boat behind do not sell, boat without renderings - sells.
But I agree with You. Unfortunately we are living in the world of consumption now, where eye-catching multi-color pictures and sweet slogans of salesmen are used to replace the reality.
Alik
10-03-2009, 11:38 AM
Look at picture below and try to estimate time spent on looking at picture (I call it drawing-style rendering), and then time on looking at drawing.
Would be interesting to see the result.
Would be interesting to see the result.
Chris Ostlind
10-03-2009, 01:13 PM
Look at picture below and try to estimate time spent on looking at picture (I call it drawing-style rendering), and then time on looking at drawing.
Would be interesting to see the result.
If you are asking this question of me as a small craft designer, I see merit in both renderings.
If you're asking me to look at the pair of illustrations as a regular guy who grew-up at the beach in SoCal, the developed rendering holds far more interest than does the line drawing of the hull in several views.
If you use both of them to market this design to the wide array of people who would typically be reviewing the proposal, the colored rendering set will provide the most information to the widest collection of individuals.
Would be interesting to see the result.
If you are asking this question of me as a small craft designer, I see merit in both renderings.
If you're asking me to look at the pair of illustrations as a regular guy who grew-up at the beach in SoCal, the developed rendering holds far more interest than does the line drawing of the hull in several views.
If you use both of them to market this design to the wide array of people who would typically be reviewing the proposal, the colored rendering set will provide the most information to the widest collection of individuals.
Chris Ostlind
10-03-2009, 01:42 PM
My daughter's favorite book is Lamb's 'Ship Design and Construction'. The book looks thick and sound, besides it is black and white, she likes to go page by page, both volumes. She is 1.5 years old :)
What can I say... Like father, like daughter. ;-) I have a daughter of my own, though she's now 21 and about to graduate from college.
Yes, but renderings are not the purpose of design. Real boat is a purpose.
Renderings are but one product of the design process. Built boats are but another. Why does the purpose of the rendering have to be a real boat? Why can't it simply be a form study, or a piece of art for its own sake? Could it not be a single stage in a process as a final design comes into focus?
I'm guessing that not every boat you have ever drawn has been built, or are you unlike most marine designers and have a 100% success rate? ;-)
I know that I have created many new designs that I have presented to the silence of the interested public. They sit now, in the dark corners of my portfolio as renderings. Perhaps one day I will suddenly come upon a new source of inspiration and revisit the designs to find some degree of success from the time invested. Maybe not. But, it's all part of the on-going work surrounding design as a pursuit.
Perhaps it's fair to say at this point that I do not derive the majority of my income from boat design and that I do not have the powerful need to constantly create designs that have marketability. I do keep track of the time I have invested in a given project and I do move on if they appear to not have a real potential as a commercial product. Some design work, however, is outside of the commercial requirement folder and I simply do it because I enjoy what I am discovering.
Renderings without boat behind do not sell, boat without renderings - sells.
Well, built boats do sell.... sometimes. One need only look at how many well-known builders of commercially successful boats are now going out of business and they have marinas full of unsold boats that are being desperately offered at auction.
Conversely, I've seen many boats sold based on the conceptual presentation of a well-made set of renderings.
But I agree with You. Unfortunately we are living in the world of consumption now, where eye-catching multi-color pictures and sweet slogans of salesmen are used to replace the reality.
This begs the question, what is reality?
Would this be the reality of a world where tons of freshly designed junk are foisted on the buying public? The same buying public who buy stuff that they do not truly need, simply to be engaged in the process of buying... the process of out-of-control cosumerism and easy credit?
OR
The reality where the buying public purchases only what they need, when they really need it? The same reality where they tend to fix and maintain that which is a component of their pride in what they do as a human being... rather than toss it in the junk pile and buy yet another?
It's a complex issue to be sure, Alik. It's one to which I have no substantive answers at present and may never. I do know this, though Alik... I like the work you have shared on these pages; built, or otherwise. I'm glad that you have taken the time to create renderings that show the process of your creative interests. We've all been made richer as a result.
What can I say... Like father, like daughter. ;-) I have a daughter of my own, though she's now 21 and about to graduate from college.
Yes, but renderings are not the purpose of design. Real boat is a purpose.
Renderings are but one product of the design process. Built boats are but another. Why does the purpose of the rendering have to be a real boat? Why can't it simply be a form study, or a piece of art for its own sake? Could it not be a single stage in a process as a final design comes into focus?
I'm guessing that not every boat you have ever drawn has been built, or are you unlike most marine designers and have a 100% success rate? ;-)
I know that I have created many new designs that I have presented to the silence of the interested public. They sit now, in the dark corners of my portfolio as renderings. Perhaps one day I will suddenly come upon a new source of inspiration and revisit the designs to find some degree of success from the time invested. Maybe not. But, it's all part of the on-going work surrounding design as a pursuit.
Perhaps it's fair to say at this point that I do not derive the majority of my income from boat design and that I do not have the powerful need to constantly create designs that have marketability. I do keep track of the time I have invested in a given project and I do move on if they appear to not have a real potential as a commercial product. Some design work, however, is outside of the commercial requirement folder and I simply do it because I enjoy what I am discovering.
Renderings without boat behind do not sell, boat without renderings - sells.
Well, built boats do sell.... sometimes. One need only look at how many well-known builders of commercially successful boats are now going out of business and they have marinas full of unsold boats that are being desperately offered at auction.
Conversely, I've seen many boats sold based on the conceptual presentation of a well-made set of renderings.
But I agree with You. Unfortunately we are living in the world of consumption now, where eye-catching multi-color pictures and sweet slogans of salesmen are used to replace the reality.
This begs the question, what is reality?
Would this be the reality of a world where tons of freshly designed junk are foisted on the buying public? The same buying public who buy stuff that they do not truly need, simply to be engaged in the process of buying... the process of out-of-control cosumerism and easy credit?
OR
The reality where the buying public purchases only what they need, when they really need it? The same reality where they tend to fix and maintain that which is a component of their pride in what they do as a human being... rather than toss it in the junk pile and buy yet another?
It's a complex issue to be sure, Alik. It's one to which I have no substantive answers at present and may never. I do know this, though Alik... I like the work you have shared on these pages; built, or otherwise. I'm glad that you have taken the time to create renderings that show the process of your creative interests. We've all been made richer as a result.
Alik
10-04-2009, 04:04 AM
Chris, this is all true but please consider that not all people grew on Beavis&Butthead, some of them grew on technical/popular science magazines for teenagers (I am sure You too, right?). There is sort of people always asking about 'more details' on the boat, they like to see how winches are arranged on deck, what materials is used for hull, what are the polar diagrams, how much is headroom and passageways... I really appreciate that most of our customers ordering custom designs are of this sort.
In terms of renderings - it is great if they are supported by proper engineering. If not, they are of no sense.
In terms of renderings - it is great if they are supported by proper engineering. If not, they are of no sense.
pamarine
10-04-2009, 04:19 AM
Well, the reason for the OP was that my CAD filed work for getting thing to the shop floor but aren't anything a customer will go wow at.
Anyhoo, Found Maxwell and Hypershot and am going to demo those for a few days i guess.
Anyhoo, Found Maxwell and Hypershot and am going to demo those for a few days i guess.
D.I.M.1
10-06-2009, 09:12 AM
What CAD are you using?
If its Autodesk inventor I could help.
If its Autodesk inventor I could help.
pamarine
10-06-2009, 10:53 AM
What CAD are you using?
If its Autodesk inventor I could help.
SW2008
If its Autodesk inventor I could help.
SW2008
D.I.M.1
10-06-2009, 05:50 PM
Sorry can't help.
pamarine
10-06-2009, 07:31 PM
Sorry can't help.
It's ok, Found out things look a lot better when exported than they do rendered in SW:D
I must be doing it wrong. (Acutally, we just upgraded to SW2009 and it's killing my comp, very upset.)
It's ok, Found out things look a lot better when exported than they do rendered in SW:D
I must be doing it wrong. (Acutally, we just upgraded to SW2009 and it's killing my comp, very upset.)
Knut Sand
10-07-2009, 03:07 AM
SW have an addin named Photoworks, maybe renamed in the new version(appearance?), have you started/ tried that? (find it under "tools", "addins" tick off "start").
There you can mark up each part/ face of part, and put on the material, push "render" and wait, have also another (or two) other options to use, depending on the time you'd like to spend on the job....
You'll have to "cut" the hull along the waterline, and place it on a "sea", or render it with a photo as the background picture, water splash and other effects to be added in photoshop (I don't have it, though). I better like the pic posted by Alik, showing the underside of the hull...
The upgrade of SW for approx 1,5 years ago really messed up some of my days, so, nowadays I'll not be riding the first wave redarding updates, resulted in a pretty important attitude in me:
NEVER tick off "there are a newer version available, do you wish to download". Bypass that one for at least 2-4 weeks, while regualily check comments on the forums, just my 5 pence, here...
However, I've had that attitude (even prolonged time span too) toward OS's from Microsoft.... (still running on XPP...). Actually these posts belong under the software section..
There you can mark up each part/ face of part, and put on the material, push "render" and wait, have also another (or two) other options to use, depending on the time you'd like to spend on the job....
You'll have to "cut" the hull along the waterline, and place it on a "sea", or render it with a photo as the background picture, water splash and other effects to be added in photoshop (I don't have it, though). I better like the pic posted by Alik, showing the underside of the hull...
The upgrade of SW for approx 1,5 years ago really messed up some of my days, so, nowadays I'll not be riding the first wave redarding updates, resulted in a pretty important attitude in me:
NEVER tick off "there are a newer version available, do you wish to download". Bypass that one for at least 2-4 weeks, while regualily check comments on the forums, just my 5 pence, here...
However, I've had that attitude (even prolonged time span too) toward OS's from Microsoft.... (still running on XPP...). Actually these posts belong under the software section..
Jeff
10-07-2009, 04:28 AM
(moderator note: moved to the software forum)
pamarine
10-07-2009, 12:10 PM
(moderator note: moved to the software forum)
sorry, didn't realised there was a software forum, I'm new here:D
sorry, didn't realised there was a software forum, I'm new here:D
bhnautika
10-07-2009, 08:00 PM
pamarine there is not a lot for boats in the free material sites but you don’t need that many anyway. Just a few glossy materials for paint and fibreglass, stainless steal and chrome, clear glass (maybe tinted) and some timber for bright work and decks. If you can’t find what you want you can always make it yourself in photoshop or any other paint /graphics programme as they are just pictures. Take a teak deck for example just get a pic of timber boards then add some black lines at the spacing you want, adjust the colour or tone and you are done. Doing rendering is a skill like any other but once you have set up a scene with the lighting you like you can import any boat model into it so the process becomes easier. Its just like taking a photo the boat has to be finished with all is parts to look good.
Rendering has nothing to do with good design or engineering it is only the end product of all that.
Rendering has nothing to do with good design or engineering it is only the end product of all that.
pamarine
10-07-2009, 08:35 PM
pamarine there is not a lot for boats in the free material sites but you don’t need that many anyway. Just a few glossy materials for paint and fibreglass, stainless steal and chrome, clear glass (maybe tinted) and some timber for bright work and decks. If you can’t find what you want you can always make it yourself in photoshop or any other paint /graphics programme as they are just pictures. Take a teak deck for example just get a pic of timber boards then add some black lines at the spacing you want, adjust the colour or tone and you are done. Doing rendering is a skill like any other but once you have set up a scene with the lighting you like you can import any boat model into it so the process becomes easier. Its just like taking a photo the boat has to be finished with all is parts to look good.
Rendering has nothing to do with good design or engineering it is only the end product of all that.
SW has a pretty good library and I found a couple more Material Libraries that seem to give almost everything I was looking for. The only thing left is Caulked Teak Decking and a Teak & Holly Texture for Soles, tables, etc.
Rendering has nothing to do with good design or engineering it is only the end product of all that.
SW has a pretty good library and I found a couple more Material Libraries that seem to give almost everything I was looking for. The only thing left is Caulked Teak Decking and a Teak & Holly Texture for Soles, tables, etc.
bhnautika
10-08-2009, 06:35 PM
pamarine you can try some of these if you want.
yipster
10-09-2009, 06:44 AM
bhnautika i got those handy maps saved too okay?
do you also know a good trick to have them bend with the deck?
anyway, thanks
do you also know a good trick to have them bend with the deck?
anyway, thanks
bhnautika
10-09-2009, 08:27 AM
Yipster you need the surface material to follow the UV directions of the surface (first one) but be careful,as you can see some times you can get distortion in lines. The other one is just a straight plane surface.
yipster
10-09-2009, 08:42 AM
no photoshopping at all, great and how dumb i was, thanx again
pamarine
10-09-2009, 10:32 PM
Thanks! Those worked great!
D.I.M.1
10-13-2009, 08:38 AM
You know if you think about it aesthetics don't matter when designing any concept, the beautification is done by market engineers so that way the job of you and me are to make a better boat. The ipod was originally just a cobbling of gadgets, and aesthetic engineers just made into a sleek and high-rise product. My advice, unless you work for a very private firm with a tight-nit group don't worry about aesthetics, ad if it bothers you include it in your engineer's report to you boss or whoever your presenting it to, product descriptions are more important than any picture of a product.
-DIM a future engineer
-DIM a future engineer
DMacPherson
10-13-2009, 10:49 AM
DIM, I have to respectfully disagree with your premise that you do not need to worry about aesthetics. Let me give you my opinion as an engineer, the parent of an engineering student, and an instructor (part time) in the engineering department of our local state university.
Like it or not, engineering contains a significant "sales" component. We sell ideas, products, our status in the company. We sell to clients, sponsors, and supervisors. This leads us back to an age-old discussion about which is superior - "form" or "content".
As you ended with the tag "a future engineer", I'm guessing you are an engineering student. I have found in my many years of work with students, that they are all about the "content", and sacrifice the value and importance of the "form". I have even seen some students who are convinced that "form" is completely irrelevant in engineering.
Much of successful engineering is about managing expectations. If two engineers deliver identical 39 knot boats, but one worked from the position with the client of delivering a 38 knot boat, everyone is happy. The other promised 40 knots, and only delivered 39. The client? Not so happy. The content was identical, but the form of delivery was different.
Consider a technical drawing with perfect content, but sloppy line quality, proportion, or placement of components on the page. Compare this to a neatly done drawing with inferior content. Which gains the client's trust? Which give the client an expectation of inferior work? In this case, the "form" (aesthetics) becomes superior to the "content" in gaining the business.
Should we aspire to inferior content? Of course not, but on level content, superior form or aesthetics will always win. You'll never get the job if the boat is not pleasing to the eye, and lacks the impression of thoughtful design quality. You can be the best technical naval architect, but if no one likes the look of your boat and omits you from consideration, then what's the point?
Regards,
Don MacPherson
HydroComp
Like it or not, engineering contains a significant "sales" component. We sell ideas, products, our status in the company. We sell to clients, sponsors, and supervisors. This leads us back to an age-old discussion about which is superior - "form" or "content".
As you ended with the tag "a future engineer", I'm guessing you are an engineering student. I have found in my many years of work with students, that they are all about the "content", and sacrifice the value and importance of the "form". I have even seen some students who are convinced that "form" is completely irrelevant in engineering.
Much of successful engineering is about managing expectations. If two engineers deliver identical 39 knot boats, but one worked from the position with the client of delivering a 38 knot boat, everyone is happy. The other promised 40 knots, and only delivered 39. The client? Not so happy. The content was identical, but the form of delivery was different.
Consider a technical drawing with perfect content, but sloppy line quality, proportion, or placement of components on the page. Compare this to a neatly done drawing with inferior content. Which gains the client's trust? Which give the client an expectation of inferior work? In this case, the "form" (aesthetics) becomes superior to the "content" in gaining the business.
Should we aspire to inferior content? Of course not, but on level content, superior form or aesthetics will always win. You'll never get the job if the boat is not pleasing to the eye, and lacks the impression of thoughtful design quality. You can be the best technical naval architect, but if no one likes the look of your boat and omits you from consideration, then what's the point?
Regards,
Don MacPherson
HydroComp
pamarine
10-13-2009, 12:07 PM
I am the entire Engineering and design department at my company, so I have to not only design a good product but also provide images for our website and sales literature. Hence this thread.
Joe Petrich
10-13-2009, 03:14 PM
DIM, I have to respectfully disagree with your premise that you do not need to worry about aesthetics. Let me give you my opinion as an engineer, the parent of an engineering student, and an instructor (part time) in the engineering department of our local state university.
Like it or not, engineering contains a significant "sales" component. We sell ideas, products, our status in the company. We sell to clients, sponsors, and supervisors. This leads us back to an age-old discussion about which is superior - "form" or "content".
As you ended with the tag "a future engineer", I'm guessing you are an engineering student. I have found in my many years of work with students, that they are all about the "content", and sacrifice the value and importance of the "form". I have even seen some students who are convinced that "form" is completely irrelevant in engineering.
Much of successful engineering is about managing expectations. If two engineers deliver identical 39 knot boats, but one worked from the position with the client of delivering a 38 knot boat, everyone is happy. The other promised 40 knots, and only delivered 39. The client? Not so happy. The content was identical, but the form of delivery was different.
Consider a technical drawing with perfect content, but sloppy line quality, proportion, or placement of components on the page. Compare this to a neatly done drawing with inferior content. Which gains the client's trust? Which give the client an expectation of inferior work? In this case, the "form" (aesthetics) becomes superior to the "content" in gaining the business.
Should we aspire to inferior content? Of course not, but on level content, superior form or aesthetics will always win. You'll never get the job if the boat is not pleasing to the eye, and lacks the impression of thoughtful design quality. You can be the best technical naval architect, but if no one likes the look of your boat and omits you from consideration, then what's the point?
Regards,
Don MacPherson
HydroComp
Very well put.
Like it or not, engineering contains a significant "sales" component. We sell ideas, products, our status in the company. We sell to clients, sponsors, and supervisors. This leads us back to an age-old discussion about which is superior - "form" or "content".
As you ended with the tag "a future engineer", I'm guessing you are an engineering student. I have found in my many years of work with students, that they are all about the "content", and sacrifice the value and importance of the "form". I have even seen some students who are convinced that "form" is completely irrelevant in engineering.
Much of successful engineering is about managing expectations. If two engineers deliver identical 39 knot boats, but one worked from the position with the client of delivering a 38 knot boat, everyone is happy. The other promised 40 knots, and only delivered 39. The client? Not so happy. The content was identical, but the form of delivery was different.
Consider a technical drawing with perfect content, but sloppy line quality, proportion, or placement of components on the page. Compare this to a neatly done drawing with inferior content. Which gains the client's trust? Which give the client an expectation of inferior work? In this case, the "form" (aesthetics) becomes superior to the "content" in gaining the business.
Should we aspire to inferior content? Of course not, but on level content, superior form or aesthetics will always win. You'll never get the job if the boat is not pleasing to the eye, and lacks the impression of thoughtful design quality. You can be the best technical naval architect, but if no one likes the look of your boat and omits you from consideration, then what's the point?
Regards,
Don MacPherson
HydroComp
Very well put.
Ad Hoc
10-13-2009, 07:08 PM
Agreed D.Mac.
BUT, there is a fine line between a pretty looking CAD rendered image and pretty CAD rendered image that has been thought out and numbers crunched.
Just being a pretty picture with no thought...is not enough. It may convince the client, who doesn't know any better.
One only has to look at many images on this forum...some great looking renderings, but ask a simple technical Q about the "image"...and the reply is more often "oh..not thought about that yet" ..or "my computer program tells me...blah blah blah", or some "airy fairy metaphysical" nonsense about...well, go figure....ugh!.
Form and function go hand in hand.
Engineers are not renowned for their aesthetic ability. However, the corollary of:
"but if no one likes the look of your boat and omits you from consideration, then what's the point"
is the boat that looked nice, but didn't make speed or capsized or kept cracking....looked nice though! Of which there are many many examples afloat in the real world, not just in the computer rendered. Said naval architect, wont get many more orders....
Unless of course the design/build is cheap...in which case, form and function are ignored for the bottom dollar.
You only get what you pay for.....
BUT, there is a fine line between a pretty looking CAD rendered image and pretty CAD rendered image that has been thought out and numbers crunched.
Just being a pretty picture with no thought...is not enough. It may convince the client, who doesn't know any better.
One only has to look at many images on this forum...some great looking renderings, but ask a simple technical Q about the "image"...and the reply is more often "oh..not thought about that yet" ..or "my computer program tells me...blah blah blah", or some "airy fairy metaphysical" nonsense about...well, go figure....ugh!.
Form and function go hand in hand.
Engineers are not renowned for their aesthetic ability. However, the corollary of:
"but if no one likes the look of your boat and omits you from consideration, then what's the point"
is the boat that looked nice, but didn't make speed or capsized or kept cracking....looked nice though! Of which there are many many examples afloat in the real world, not just in the computer rendered. Said naval architect, wont get many more orders....
Unless of course the design/build is cheap...in which case, form and function are ignored for the bottom dollar.
You only get what you pay for.....
DMacPherson
10-13-2009, 07:37 PM
Ad Hoc,
I'm not sure the underlying message that you are trying to get across, but I don't think I ever said that you can omit the "content". In fact, I think I stated that we must not "aspire to inferior content". However, even if you are technically excellent with the "content", you cannot omit the "form". Complaints about pretty pictures with no technical merit are an entirely different discussion.
Regards,
Don MacPherson
HydroComp
I'm not sure the underlying message that you are trying to get across, but I don't think I ever said that you can omit the "content". In fact, I think I stated that we must not "aspire to inferior content". However, even if you are technically excellent with the "content", you cannot omit the "form". Complaints about pretty pictures with no technical merit are an entirely different discussion.
Regards,
Don MacPherson
HydroComp
Ad Hoc
10-13-2009, 07:50 PM
D.Mac
It was in response to your statement of:
"..but on level content, superior form or aesthetics will always win..."
If the client is swayed by pure imaginary alone, then yes. But that is rather patronising to clients who know what they want and know 'technical issues'.
As such I'm not sure how you can differentiate between:
"..You'll never get the job if the boat is not pleasing to the eye.." but you then say..."..Complaints about pretty pictures with no technical merit are an entirely different discussion.."
Pleasing to the eye and pretty pictures is the same thing. So what is it you are referring to, if you think the two are different discussions?
A very similar discussion is here
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/just-thought-29377.html
only a few pages, but worth reading through...
It was in response to your statement of:
"..but on level content, superior form or aesthetics will always win..."
If the client is swayed by pure imaginary alone, then yes. But that is rather patronising to clients who know what they want and know 'technical issues'.
As such I'm not sure how you can differentiate between:
"..You'll never get the job if the boat is not pleasing to the eye.." but you then say..."..Complaints about pretty pictures with no technical merit are an entirely different discussion.."
Pleasing to the eye and pretty pictures is the same thing. So what is it you are referring to, if you think the two are different discussions?
A very similar discussion is here
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/just-thought-29377.html
only a few pages, but worth reading through...
DMacPherson
10-14-2009, 07:44 AM
In your discussion of my comments, you've overlooked my phrase "on level content". This is the basis for my comments.
My comments to the poster = "content without form" is bad
Your reply to me = "form without content" is bad
Both valid discussions, but different discussions. Please read my comments again, and I think you'll find that I never suggested that nice drawings without the underlying technical details was proper engineering.
I stand by my comments, which can be summed up as "Great technical merit that is delivered in a poor wrapper will always be considered of lower quality than if it were delivered in a pleasing package".
(And I do consider "pleasing to the eye" and "pretty pictures" as different. I've seen simple hand-drawn sketches that were neat, crisp, and pleasing. I've also seen "pretty pictures" of ugly boats. Quite different things.)
Regards,
Don MacPherson
HydroComp
My comments to the poster = "content without form" is bad
Your reply to me = "form without content" is bad
Both valid discussions, but different discussions. Please read my comments again, and I think you'll find that I never suggested that nice drawings without the underlying technical details was proper engineering.
I stand by my comments, which can be summed up as "Great technical merit that is delivered in a poor wrapper will always be considered of lower quality than if it were delivered in a pleasing package".
(And I do consider "pleasing to the eye" and "pretty pictures" as different. I've seen simple hand-drawn sketches that were neat, crisp, and pleasing. I've also seen "pretty pictures" of ugly boats. Quite different things.)
Regards,
Don MacPherson
HydroComp
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