sailing dinghy questions

[GilliganatERAU]

Hello everyone,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing a small sailing dinghy project, and we have a few questions to pitch toward the knowledge base here:)

For starters, what would be the minimum boat size that could be a 'safe' 3-man boat in a pinch? Maybe 10 feet with a 4.5 or 5 foot beam? We've been looking at some of the Glen-L boat designs for ideas, but a big part of the project would be that it is our own design. Foolish? maybe...;)

Thanks,
Ryan

[bistros]

Hello everyone,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing a small sailing dinghy project, and we have a few questions to pitch toward the knowledge base here:)

For starters, what would be the minimum boat size that could be a 'safe' 3-man boat in a pinch? Maybe 10 feet with a 4.5 or 5 foot beam? We've been looking at some of the Glen-L boat designs for ideas, but a big part of the project would be that it is our own design. Foolish? maybe...;)

Thanks,
Ryan

Safe is a relative term, depending on the venue and expected conditions.

You CAN fit three people in 10,', but I wouldn't. Since the plan is already over 8', you are going to be scarfing plywood to make large enough panels, and if you are scarfing, why not make a dinghy big enough to be comfortable and safe?

Your boat building experience level is a topic worth discussing as well. A great boat builder can do a lot more with a lot less effort than a beginner, so choosing the design and build method is really important and depends on experience.

I would not want to sail a dinghy with three people under 14' long. Otherwise tacking and gybing gets to be really crowded and dangerous.

Performance is the real question - and what is acceptable? You can make a wide boat to carry lots of load, but it will be dog slow.

Tell us more about where you are going to be using the boat, the conditions and what expectations you have - we will be able to help a lot more.

--
Bill

[GilliganatERAU]

Thanks for the reply Bistros.

Our size is limited by material (3-4 4x8 sheets of ply max) and the ability to carry in the back of a pickup (albeit with overhang out the back). The vast majority of the time she'll be a single or two man boat, but it would be nice to be able to carry three at times.

Our sailing area is a small lake, and blue-water conditions are not on the agenda. We're not building a regatta boat, but it would be nice to have a boat that didn't need 20knots of wind just to move, either.

Regarding experience, both of us have moderate sailing experience and are familiar with wordworking in general, but we are rash newbies at boat building:) The current plan is standard stitch-and-glue ply hull, with hardware and other items creatively scrounged.

Basically our expectations/requirements are 1) to have a boat that is mobile in mild lake conditions, 2) can be carried and launched from a pickup bed by two, 3) can carry three, and most importantly, 4) can be built under a strict budget.

Thanks again,
Ryan

[PAR]

Considering you don't see why it's unreasonable to have a 8 to 10' boat and a three person crew, strongly suggests you don't have the necessary grasp of the principles, concepts and fundamentals of yacht design, sufficiently enough to consider self designing. I may be wrong and I'm not trying to offend. In that vain, where do you estimate the maximum beam will be on your little design? The target Cp? Preferred hull form? How about your method for calculating sail area?

Or you could get a set of Glen-L (or other) plans and have fun. Consider 14' as a staring point for a three man boat. Smaller craft just don't have the internal volume to recommend them well for this load. Have a look at the Glen-L 12 for a minimum 3 man boat. It will be quite crowded, but possible. Personally, I'd rather build a more modern design so you can incorporate taped seam construction which is easy for a lot of folks, especially builders with a little experience. Unfortunately, Glen-L doesn't have many taped seam designs (the vast majority of their designs are quite old) and no sail boats in the size range you need.

14' will be a much better "fit" for a 3 man crew, with plenty of room for Fidel the wonder dog and a cooler full of beer too.

[GilliganatERAU]

PAR-

I know I may be wrong in thinking that a three-man boat is a reality given our limitations, but I'm basing my ideas on my Catalina Capri 14.2 that I've comfortably sailed with 4 on board. Unfortunately the Catalina is in upstate NY and in need of TLC (new sails + glass work) at the moment, and I'm in college in Arizona on a limited budget.

At this point design is purely TLAR (that looks about right). I do plan to make a small model of it to make patterns from, and I might make it radio control (another hobby of mine) to determine trim and balance in a rough fashion.

What is taped seam construction? Is it basically stitch and glue without stitching?

Thanks for the input as always,
Ryan

[alan white]

Stitch and glue is taped seam (so to speak), but taped seam isn't stitch and glue. A stitch and glue boat needs no chine logs or keelson since the glue (usu. epoxy) can be thickened and coved into the inside "corners" essentially replacing the longitudinal joining pieces mentioned.
Taping the seams adds some strength, but its principal use is to waterproof as plywood screwed to chines is structurally adaquate.
Stitch and glue is glassed inside and out but taped seam isn't as a rule. Usually only the outside is taped with taped seam since the chine logs and other longitudinals get in the way.
As with any methods, there are variations combining several methods, such as a seperate stem both screwed between the bows and taped inside and outside for strength.

[PAR]

Taped seams are as the name suggests and the seams are taped (over fillets on inside corners). Stitch and glue is the same thing as taped seam except it has the seams held with stitches of various sorts of things (wire, cable ties, etc.).

In both situations, the joint gets it's strength from the fillet on the inside and the tape on both sides.

What Alan refers to, is what I call a glue and screw build (plank and frame). This is where the boat still has most of it's traditional framing elements (frames, floors, chine logs, stringers, etc.), but has it's exterior seams taped. This once was a separate build method, but hasn't been used (wholesale) in about 30 years. It was dropped (1970's) in favor of the lighter weight and simplified methods of true monocoque forms, found in stitch and glue. The exception (again) is taped seam doesn't need to be stitched and uses a different method to hold the panels together (such as Bolger's tack and tape) while the goo cures. It really is a hair splitting thing. A taped seam build may use a jig to hold the panels, while stitch and glue will generally be "free form" molding, possibly over a temporary bulkhead or two.

I generally use the two terms interchangeably, preferring taped seam over stitch and glue because it's all encompassing and less specific then stitch and glue.

If a build has framing and stringers, etc. I'll typically call this plywood over frame, regardless of how the seams are treated.

[alan white]

Interesting to hear PAR's definition. I will defer to him since he is the more knowledgable one. I've always thought taped seam was only outside taping, but now I can see why the confusion, and I wonder if others are also confused (or, like me, discovering that I'm not using the same terms a pro would use).

[PAR]

These terms are fluid, if given enough time Alan. I'm old enough to remember the old glue and screw jobs, before and after seams got taped. In those days, it was polyester and all sorts of crazy things were being done with the "miracle goos in a can". Of course none of them worked and it took me a long time to accept epoxy as a result, when it showed up in the late 60's (for me anyway). I still know folks that use nails with the heads exposed an 1/8" so the polyester has something to grip or staple the mat down, thinking it's now mechanically and chemically bonded to the surface. Hey, we didn't know, so we tried anything and everything to improve peel strength.

These old glue and screw builds where as the name suggests, the plywood was glued and screwed to the frame work, but the structure is still basically a plank on frame thing. Eventually things started to change and the frame spacing was increased, with many being removed if sufficient internal structure existed. Stringers and battens were the longest hold outs from the old days, but finally they got round filed too. All this came about with the faith epoxy brought to the table and the test results of different "liquid joinery" approaches.

[GilliganatERAU]

I've seen a few builds still using stringers and battens, or some sort of the concept- are these still used/necessary, i.e. to allow a thinner-than-normal plywood for a lighter hull, or is it still a throwback that stays in a few designs?

[rwatson]

I suppose the word 'safe' has to be used in the context of "where".

Lakes and rivers, 3 people in a 12 ft boat - maybe, in open waters "most probably not".

In any event, the pain and possible disappointment of building your own design when a great little boat is only a few hundred dollars away in a proven plan, seems unnecessary.

I can recomend the book 'Devlins Boat Building' as a great insight into self design as well as the 'stitch and glue' or 'taped' method of boat building.
http://store.devlinboat.com/

For more thorough confusion, the thred at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-building/building-methods-29256.html

is great value too.

[FAST FRED]

Go purchase a Grumman Aluminum dink in the sailing model. just over 8ft .

Will transport 3 folks with ease in really sloppy (2 -3ftwaves) conditions.

2 rowing locations for 2 rowers.Rows well, powers well and sails really well.

For cruising it can take the imbecile dingy crushes (10 dinks tie up close to "capture" a spot, instead of using a 20 ft painter and having 30 dinks share).

The aluminum does really well in crush conditions with ply wood or condom boats, and chews its away into GRP like Boston Whalers well too.

OK on a rocky or coral beach too.

FF

[idkfa]

Have a look at the Mirror dinghy, slow but capable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_(dinghy)

[lewisboats]

About like PAR says...12 ft would be the minimum. Using a Pram design you could cram 3 in if it was beamy and still be ok. No speed records but should be a relatively OK performance wise and still be fairly easy to build. You would want some decent rocker to get weight carrying capacity, enough freeboard to keep the water out, enough beam to give room and capacity. Something like the SKETCH below would be a starting point. I might rig this Catboat style with the mast far forward and use a Sprit Sail or a Leg 'O Mutton sail with a sprit boom or even a Gaff rig if you feel salty. That way you have maximum room in the interior to move around and get the best balance. For an easier build you could go with a flat bottom but that would tend to increase your drag a bit and pound on the water when not heeled over some. This sketch shows a level waterline in the 700 lb displacement range. I assume you would be using this on the lakes in AZ and not in the Atlantic, on nicer days rather than during a raging T-Storm etc. Decking and general 'making it more seaworthy' will add to the weight as well as the safety and will cut your carrying capacity. If you were to add a foot to the length you would increase capacity by over 100 lbs and probably only increase the boat weight by 25-30 lbs so you might want to consider going for the extra foot.

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/PramKitty.JPG


PS: Now Paul...no need to dissect the drawing to bits...I'm just using it to illustrate the capacity and usefulness of the pram style in getting the most boat in the shortest length.

[PAR]

May I recommend the Puddle Duck, it fits the requirements. Okay it looks like a concrete mixing tub with a sail, but hey it has serious load capacity and is only 8' long.

[lewisboats]

Low blow!...but Danged if it doesn't come close. Still...I think if you are going to go that route you need to go with a Goose rather than a Duck. Check out Storer's plans for the longer, bigger Goose.
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Pdr/pdgoose.html

[PAR]

The Duck is lighter and less unwieldy toting around.
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Pdr/pdr.html

[bistros]

Low blow!...but Danged if it doesn't come close. Still...I think if you are going to go that route you need to go with a Goose rather than a Duck. Check out Storer's plans for the longer, bigger Goose.
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Pdr/pdgoose.html

Although the PDR and it's evolutionary sister the Goose are technically boats, to me they just seem ... butt ugly. So do Pugs, Shar Peis and Italian Mastiffs - all dogs I like very much. If you are going to put in the effort to build a boat, it may as well be aesthetically nice - nobody ever lost points for being pretty.

Continuing on the Michael Storer theme, I'd build a Goat Island Skiff (http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html). To be honest, building a small boat of it's size takes almost the same amount of effort as a PDR, but the result is something to be proud of, instead of something you want to wear a mask when sailing.

Just my preference. I'd rather walk the beach with Jessica Alba than Roseanne Barr.

--
Bill

[PAR]

Bill, if Roseanne took a liking to 'ya, you'd tell Jessica to pack sand. Of course this assumes a better prenuptial with Rosie, which would have to be the case, because she can have any of the Tom Arnold's in the litter, to pick from . . .

[GilliganatERAU]

A boat that leaned a bit more to the Jessica Alba side of the equation would be nice...:) The PD Goose actually fills the bill, mostly, but we are tending towards a pointy nose design aesthetically. In that vein the Goat Island Skiff is a beautiful boat that should be a joy to sail, however it's just too big for our purposes. For transportation and storage, 12 feet is about the max.

So, the basic idea that's forming in my head would be a 12 foot boat with a widish beam, say 5 feet, carried well forward from the stern, with a somewhat abrupt taper to a pointy bow. An exaggerated freeboard could help with load capacity a bit. She'd probably be a catboat, maybe a gaff rig to keep the mast shorter. Sound doable? (well, remotely possible?:p )

[flying_violin]

Hey everyone,

I am the second partner in this little nautical endeavor. As far as my sailing experience goes, I have sailed a little-known 13' design (the Satellite) that has a molded fiberglass hull and sloop rig. I have sailed it many times with my Grandpa along the coast of Southern California in up to 4 foot swells. I have sailed it solo in the harbor just to say I could do it, but we sail to enjoy each other's company.

I have also sailed an 8' Sabot that my Uncle built in the late '60s or early '70s. My Uncle lives in Houston area and we took that out to a lake nearby his house. Of course, that was a solo experience. (Cool part was that there was a giant fountain in the middle of the lake, and so it was fun to sail under the fringes of mist! :cool: )

My Uncle also has a 14' fiberglass boat, sloop rigged, with a covered deck on the front. We sailed out of Galveston, TX and it has a center-board with kick-up rudder. (Came in handy a few times, too!)

As for the current boat project, here are the reasons behind the requirements:

We can build the boat outside on a corner of the school's RC plane field, but it will probably be stored in a 12' x 12' room or two.

The three person requirement comes from a third partner who does not want to help build, but will donate money to the project if he can just ride along in the boat. With a passenger on board, we were thinking that it would be nice to have someone in the bakc operating the main and tiller, and someone in the front operating the jib. That way, we will not be clambering around on the passenger on a tack.

Being in college, we want to keep the cost down to $100 - $150 per person. For a two-man boat, that leaves us with a budget of $300, and for a three-man boat, $450 - $300.

Also, the larges vehicle any of us own is a pickup with a 6' bed. Fortunately, the lake is literally right across the street from the school.

And last of all, we are engineering students, so we like to design/build stuff! :D

So there you have it! Our motivations and goals in a nutshell!

[GilliganatERAU]

Hey good to see you here! (I just happened to log on now, I'm not here 24/7, honest...)

At the risk of becoming too technical, how are the sail(s) and daggerboard placed wrt the hull when designing? I know the sail(s) act as wings and the component of the resultant force parallel to the hull is the 'motivating' force, but can the sails be assumed to act as wings to the degree that the x-component of the center of effort is approximately 1/4 of the mean aerodynamic chord back from the luff? Also the daggerboard should be placed such that the x-component of its aerodynamic center is slightly forward of the center of effort of the sail area for a slight weatherhelm, correct? Does the center of gravity of the boat/hull play a significant role to the degree that immitating the proportions of similar designs is not sufficient?

Thanks as always,
Ryan

[gggGuest]

I've seen a few builds still using stringers and battens, or some sort of the concept- are these still used/necessary, i.e. to allow a thinner-than-normal plywood for a lighter hull, or is it still a throwback that stays in a few designs?

Both can be true (well stringers anyway)... In 99% of cases that you'll see its design inertia, but the most sophisticated and lightest wooden boats tended to have stringers unless they were very "tortured" three dimensional shapes. Its a long while since I've seen a boat built like that though simply because cored construction (even plywood or cedar core) with fibre/epoxy skins is so much better for a lightweight boat.

On daggerboard placement - the fashion in the high performance boats at the moment is to have the rudder contribute to leeway resistance quite significantly, so the board tends to be smaller and maybe further forward. This makes the position rather less critical. Evaluating "weather helm" is more tricky than might be thought - it doesn't matter (indeed it may be good) if the tiller is pulling on your hand and wants to zoom off to leeward provided that it doesn't need to be offset from the centreline to keep the boat sailing in a straight line. The "weather helm" of tiller pulled 15 degrees towards you to keep the boat straight may well be a lot more about hull shape and just not sailing the boat upright than it is about 6 inches fore and aft placement of the daggerboard.

But this is mostly talking about far lighter and higher performance boat than you folks probably require... For instance 3mm ply decks and topsides are great for light weight, but not so great if the way your boat will be used means they get holes in them once a month...

[lewisboats]

The usual position of a daggerboard on a small craft such as you are contemplating tends to be right under the Center of Effort of the sail/sail set. Your weight distribution will affect balance as much as anything else and you can probably weight steer such a boat almost as easily as using the tiller...so board placement, while important isn't absolutely critical. Another way of doing it would be to make the case longer than the board is wide, then you can vary the position of the board and use plugs to fill in. I am using this on the scow I am building...12" board with a 16" slot and various plugs to allow me to position my board how I need. This, along with wedging the mast in at various rake angles will let me fine tune the rig or even change it without having to re-do anything major.

But why not go with a 2 piece boat? Build a GIS or something similar then make 2 bulkheads and lop the front off at the correct length. Transport and store nested or at least stacked then bolt them together when you get to the water...THAT should tickle your engineering bone;).

[Paul J. Nolan]

I strongly urge you to investigate the work of Phil Bolger, a fine naval architect who produced a lot of simple-to-build yet good-sailing boats in your price range, all of them very simply rigged, which keeps the cost down. If the third person is only occasional, a small (12') boat may suffice. If he will be a regular crew, you'll want a larger boat. It is no coincidence that every boat I can think of, 16' or less...Comet, Snipe, Lido 14, Rhodes Bantam, Wayfarer, etc., is a two-man dinghy. It's not until the 17-19' range that you see three-man crews as in the Thistle and Lightning. The reason is that while you can physically cram three people into, say, a Penguin, doing so destroys her sailing qualities, the very thing that gives pleasure and satisfaction underway. While none of Bolger's boats are one design classes like those I have alluded to as examples, they sail just as well in most cases and are a lot simpler and cheaper to build using the previously-mentioned tack-and-tape method of construction. He wrote several books that showcase his work; I'm sure they are available through your library.

Paul

Edited to add: And then there is Herb "Dynamite" Payson, a Maine boatbuilder who specializes in Bolger designs. He also sells plans under authorization from the late naval architect and has published two books about the boats and how to build them, Instant Boats and The New Instant Boats. I'd certainly want to read one of the books before tackling any plywood boatbuilding project. His website: http://www.instantboats.com/ While she is somewhat larger than the parameters you originally listed, the Light Schooner is the right size for a crew of three young men. I've seen a larger copy of her plans; she is extraordinarily appealing. You might consider building a small boat as practice. If all goes well and you are still game, you could sell the small boat and use the proceeds to build the schooner. Two men should be able to build one of the small boats in a weekend.

Good luck, Paul

[GilliganatERAU]

Thanks for the good info guys- lots to think about.

Those are great ideas for the oversized board slot and the raking mast lewisboats; that should definitely help us out in the trim department. We have actually discussed the possibility of a modular boat, as it would really help for transport and storage, however that may require more wood, and is more complex to build (spare time is a bit short).

I've started laying out a basic hull shape, and I've hit a design decision point- structurally, I'd like to integrate the lower end of the mast into some other structure, say the daggerboard trunk, but this would locate the mast further aft than ideal for a single sail. Because of this, a sloop rig looks to be more appropriate, at least for the hull structure. Is a sloop rig on a boat of this size advisable from a rigging/handling standpoint?

Also, where approximately is the sail/sail set's center of effort? Is it the centroid, or further forward, i.e. aerodynamic center?

Thanks,
Ryan

Now I'm off to the school library to see if I can locate one of Phil Bolger's books- thanks for the suggestion Paul!

[gggGuest]

Because of this, a sloop rig looks to be more appropriate, at least for the hull structure. Is a sloop rig on a boat of this size advisable from a rigging/handling standpoint?

I think that you're at risk of making a big compromise on sailing ability, usability and cost in order to avoid making a small compromise on hull structure...

Whatever rig is appropriate for the use your boat will be put you should put the mast and foil in the right place for the boat to function correctly and sort out the structure to match rather than vice versa. Unless you are planning something really extreme in terms of large sail area, high rig loads and ultra light weight there really isn't going to be a downside to an appreciable separation between mast and board.

Start thinking about your internal layout - how your three crew operating the boat, what people will sit on, whether you will be carring stores (eskie and sandwiches?), buoyancy tanks, that sort of thing. When you've got all that pencilled in you will proably find that decisions on internal structure are much clearer because the benches, decks or whatever to sit on are also going to be key parts of your load bearing structure.

[lewisboats]

This'll help:
http://www.boatbuilding-links.de/Jim-Michalak/sail-math-and-thoughts-of.html

[PAR]

It's one thing to make adjustments to an existing design, maybe even wholesale changes with fundamental elements of the original being moved, but to design the whole thing from a blank sheet, appears to be well outside your present scope of understanding. I'd strongly recommend you consider one of the low cost and even free plans that are available, if you'd like to have any reasonably level of success to come of this, particularly if you're on a budget.

Yes, with the help of some quite primitive and basic diagrams found on line, possibly a discussion forum or two, maybe some free or low cost software, some of the questions you need answers for can be provided, but there's considerably more to the skill set necessary then you realize. It takes a far understanding of several engineering disciplines to get a reasonable small boat. Anyone can design a pig that doesn't sail well, maneuvers like a truck and cost three times what it needed to, though can hold all the stuff they thought they'd need.

The trick is to design a boat that actual fits your needs, uses enough material to tolerate the loads you expect with a reserve margin, but little more so, you can actually afford it and have it sail well, possibly fairing pretty good against other boats of similar dimensions, because there's nothing worse then getting beat by a 12 year old in an over loaded small yacht tender.

I say this because of the type of questions you're asking and most importantly, because of the questions you're not asking. If you're going to venture farther from shore then you can swim back to, it would be nice if you had some level of assurance that she'll bring you back. And lastly, it's just as easy to build a real piece of junk as it is, a boat you can be proud of and does all the things you hoped.

[GilliganatERAU]

gggGuest- I will try to design the structure around the proper positioning of the components rather than vice versa, however, in the interest of simplicity of the structure I would like to integrate the daggerboard, mast, and midships seat into one unit. By using a sloop rig, the mast can be placed near the daggerboard while still maintaining a balanced rig. What I am asking is that, is a sloop rig on this size of boat too troublesome to consider? If a catboat configuration is a significantly better option, then I agree that the mast must be placed to balance the sailplan first and foremost.

lewisboats- Thanks for that link! That clarifies many questions that have been bouncing about in my head. As an aeronautical engineering student I still find it hard to accept that the center of effort is at the centroid of the area and not further forward as on an airplane wing, however a good deal of the sail area immediately aft of the mast is rendered ineffective by the separation bubble aft of the mast, so the centroid may be a reasonable rule of thumb simply by happy coincidence.

PAR- I recognize and appreciate your concerns regarding our inexperience, and I too have seen many an amateur become overwhelmed by a project they thought they could handle in other disciplines with which I am more experienced, however at the risk of sounding stubborn, one of the primary ideas behind this project is to build from our own design work;)

Thanks for the input as always,
Ryan

[lewisboats]

So much depends on the quality of the sail manufacture, the age of the sail, the material and how stretched it is, the rigging setup, the amount of tension, the shape the sail takes at various angles of attack, etc that the centroid is like a hand grenade...close enough.

[ajlewie]

Try building the 3.8m dinghy by radoslaw werszko at dinghy.pl. We built one that only took me & my bro to assemble the parts in 4 days.2 days glassing. though it took me 3days to loft then cut the 30+ parts/panels...it can carry 3 persons. Total no. of plywood used..2pcs of 9mm x 4x8 and four pcs. 5mm...its easy to build as we don`t have much carpentry skills...

[ancient kayaker]

There's a capacity difference between motoring and sailing a small boat. Ryan wants to sail.

With a motor all of you can arrange yourselves comfortably and stay put. Capacity is set by the need to keep the water out in whatever conditions are prevalent at the time. 3 in a fat 8 ft boat in calm conditions? Sure.

When you're sailing you need space to move around. A well organized crew of 2 can do that in a properly designed small boat but the third guy will get in their way. With guys, capacity limit of a small sailboat is determined by when a fight starts over who trod on whom*. In addition to cockpit space you will need additional freeboard to keep the water out when the boat heels. 3 in a fat 8 ft boat in calm conditions? Maybe; bind the 2 you don't need and toss 'em someplace where they won't get in the way, great for ballast. Sure it can be done with a small sail ....

* This would work better with an all-girl crew, since the most useless would just have a hissy fit and get out of the way of the other(s) ...

[flying_violin]

The 3.8 m dinghy looks like an excellent choice at this point. School got a little busy lately, which has caused us to focus on classes rather than boating. However, a few breaks are on the horizon, so your replies came at an opportune time.

However, I was wondering if floatation chambers should be added under the seats and under the covered decking in the front. Would that help with righting the boat when it capsizes?

[lewisboats]

yes but you might be better with flotation bags...they collapse and are stored easily yet can be tucked in some fairly small places or tied wherever needed.