Ethanol avoidance

[tom28571]

Having recently suffered three instances of problems with ethanol enhanced gasoline, I am searching for ways to avoid that crap in the future. These problems required both time and considerable money to correct. I find that Exxon has some stations that advertise ethanol free gas and some marinas also claim the same. There is also the possibility that higher octane grades may often be ethanol free. How about aviation gas?

I am also in the process of replacing a very good home made tank with a plastic one from Tempo. I find this onerous because the new one is lower capacity and takes up much more room in the bilge, requiring structural rework. Actually I may not be not in favor of large capacity anyway since the ethanol enhanced stuff has such a short lifetime.

What are the rest of you doing or, are most just hoping for the best? I can advise that this is a risky strategy.

Maybe it is time for some ground-roots rebellion against ethanol. Some have made tests indicating that paying more for ethanol free actually saves money because of greater mileage.

This is not a general rant against ethanol or any other fuel source. Just trying to find a way to live with it other than additives and hope..

[hoytedow]

The only way I know of to avoid ethanol in fuel is to replace the people who passed laws requiring it to be there, or tack a mast to your boat.

[TollyWally]

The stuff has cost me untold misery and money. I ended up making a homemade fuel polishing set up with a electric fuel pump running through multiple diesel filters. I ended up installing one of the racor filters permently. Illegal for gasoline but I doubt the coasties will catch it and I have good fueling practices and am not scared of the theoretical danger.

For what it is worth, once your tanks are cleaned of ethanol soluable gunk it is supposed to run cleanly through your motor. You can advance your timing just a touch with it since it burns cooler. I don't know if that will make up for the loss in energy. All in all, it's a bunch of feelgood political ******** designed to gain favor with corn belt voters. Me, I vote NO!

[narwhal]

Around here several Marathon stations are advertising ethanol-free gas, and getting a premium price for it, maybe a dime a gallon more. All the Exxon stations here are selling ethanol-laced gas. So I guess it varies from regoin to region. Several local marinas sell Valvtect gas, which is supposed to have a special additive in it that protects against ethanol problems; the additive is added by the distributor, not at the refinery.

[tom28571]

If ethanol free only goes for a 10 cent premium, I will gladly pay that and more since it will be more than recovered in better fuel mileage.

[Willallison]

Fortunately, here in Oz, E+ fuel is pumped from a dedicated bowser - at least in most of the places I've taken note of it. We haven't had the misfortune of having a minimum ethanol content legislated upon us.
I have read a number articles detailing the tails of woe of boat owners throughout the US in particular. If I recall correctly the NMMA were making representations to your officialdom. The cost to the boating community was estimated to be in the hundreds of millions.
Still - we are a dirty, irresponsible polluting bunch, with too much money - so we deserve it.....

[pamarine]

MoGas (Automotive Gasoline) sold for use in aircraft will be ethanol free, but AvGas (Aviation Gasoline) is leaded and not suitable for use in modern marine (or automobile) engines.

What problems have you had as a result of Ethanol-blended gasoline? I understand your aversion to it from an economic and political standpoint but have yet to see a mechanical reason not to run it.

[Willallison]

pamarine - do a quick google on problems with marine engines - particularly outboards - there are a myriad of problems associated with ethanol

[masalai]

I ran a trial on my car and the Australian option to use 10% ethanol mix gave 10% less in mileage, so I do not use it now, PERIOD... Why use stuff that is no real use in conservation and less efficient... If non-subsidised, far more expensive and worst of all, removes valuable food growing capacity in producing stupid CRAP... A decision by brain dead fools to introduce such ******** ideas....

[tom28571]

What problems have you had as a result of Ethanol-blended gasoline? I understand your aversion to it from an economic and political standpoint but have yet to see a mechanical reason not to run it.

Glad you asked:mad:

I have heard of others with worse problems but here is my recent experience.

1980 Evinrude 25: Carb rebuild. Hanging float from varnish.
Stihl chainsaw: New Carb. Shop would not rebuild
Yamaha 50: Rebuild all four carbs. Hanging floats and clogged jets.
Replacing home built fuel tank in power cruiser with commercial one.

Dealer told me that I had to drain the individual carbs after use on the Yamaha if I could not get ethanol free gas. I am now using an additive that is supposed to help.

Total cost. Almost $600 for no other reason than ethanol crap. This is minor to what a few others have had to fork out.

My own experience shows significantly lower fuel mileage on vehicles with ethanol "enhanced" fuel. I do not notice any other problems with vehicles. Probably because of the sealed fuel system on cars that is not practical on marine or other units.

In addition, will probably buy a portable fuel caddy with pump to fetch ethanol free from source to avoid these problems. This is not hassle free either. The marina source is not accessible with a vehicle and they won't like to pump small quantities. Next nearest source is over 30 miles if I'm lucky.

This seems like quite enough sacrifice so that we can subsidize farmers with our taxes for ethanol. Don't forget significantly higher prices on anything that uses corn in its processing, especially food.

Even the marine mechanics that gain income from ethanol problems are mad because it is clogging their work load with up to a two month backlog in the peak season.

That is all I can think of at the moment.

[narwhal]

... Why use stuff that is no real use in conservation and less efficient... If non-subsidised, far more expensive and worst of all, removes valuable food growing capacity in producing stupid CRAP... A decision by brain dead fools to introduce such ******** ideas....

Our politicians are (mostly) not brain-dead, rather their brains are tuned to what will get them re-elected. If the voters have been swayed by the media to demand bio-fuels, the polis will legislate bio-fuels. If the voters were to demand fuel made from spider poo, that's what would be legislated, however impractical or harmful to our economy and to our boats.

[pamarine]

pamarine - do a quick google on problems with marine engines - particularly outboards - there are a myriad of problems associated with ethanol

I am a technician in the marine repair industry and am fully aware of the issues, both perceived and real, resulting from the use of ethanol blended gasolines.

You will experience lower fuel economy. This is because ethanol has a lower btu/gallon than gasoline. So, even though ethanol-blends are less expensive than non-blended gas, the savings is offset by increased consumption. It may actually be more expensive to use ethanol-blended gasoline depending on your local economy.

Tom, you mentioned varnish several times. Varnish only occurs if gasoline is allowed to sit. Depending on the quality of fuel used and the presence of other contaminants in the fuel system this time can be anywhere from 3 weeks to over a year. Using commercially available fuel additives (such as Stabil or StarTron), along with proper storage techniques (reference your engine's or boat's manual) will virtually eliminate this problem.

As for the fuel tank, by home-built I am guessing it was an FRP tank? If so, this is a known issue with ethanol. Most resins used to make FRP fuel tanks (prior to 2003) were not alcohol resistant. Why I cannot say, since the USCG required Alcohol-resistant components everywhere else in a gasoline fuel system. So what happens is the Ethanol plasticizes the resin causing the tanks to basically dissolve.

If you have a new fuel system (ie new boat), you should experience no problems running ethanol-blended fueld other than the reduced economy mentioned above. If, however, you have an old fuel system, you may experience several problems as a result of the solvent properties ethanol adds. Most of these issues can be mitigated by proper filtration of the fuel prior to the engine. Yamaha I believe recommends at least a 10 micron primary fuel filter for their outboards when switching from non-ethanol fueuls to an ethanol fuel to trap contaminants before reaching the engine.

The biggest issue with ethanol is actually storage. After a few weeks un-treated Ethanol-blends will begin to seperate, forming large slugs of ethanol in the bottom of the fuel tank. These slugs then go to work abosrbing water from the atmosphere (remember, ethanol was/is used in many water absorbing fuel additives), cleaning debris in the tank, and interacting with older resins in FRP tanks. If you were to try to run an engine after this has occured I would expect fouled fuel injectors or carbs, a clogged filter, and generally poor performance.

Therefore, it is recommended that with every fill-up with ethanol-blended fuels fuel additives be included such as StarTron to keep the ethanol in suspension with the gasoline. Combining StarTron with another stabilzer such as Stabil has been shown to allow for storage durations up to three months will no ill-effects. If storing beyond this, the recommendation is to run the fuel system as empty as possible and follow the long-term storage guidlines set by the boat and engine manufacturer.

Let me just clarify one addtional point. I do not prefer nor advocate ethanol-blended fuels, but they are rapidly becoming the only available gasolines as states pass laws intended to aid the corn farmers. I simply wish to explain that it can be used without serious consequence.

Hope this helps.

[tom28571]

Pamarine,

You did a good job illuminating the reasons why ethanol is giving problems. Nevertheless, the reasons do not keep these problems from happening since the general public never gets the word about anything like this until a problem develops. Locally, ethanol kind of sneeked up on me and others since we did not have it until recently and no public notice was made when it was introduced.

How many people use their boats every three weeks? Not many. This puts a premium on following preventive measures that many will be lax on. Heck, I have problems getting an owner to tie his boat up securely in a slip. Human nature is a tough nut to change.

Yes, I now do the preventive things you advocate with Stabil and Startron (actually another brand recommended by my dealer). The Stabil I have is older and does not mention ethanol on the label. I will still seek out non ethanol gas when possible.

Narwhal,

I wish politics were as simple as you say. Voters do not have a lot of control of politicians compared to moneyed interests. This ethanol debacle is one of the best proofs of that.

[Submarine Tom]

In a perfect world we could stop burning liquid hydro-carbons and the problem would simply disappear, POOF.

I look forward to it. If oil went to US$1000/barrel tomorrow, we'd see BIG change by the end of next month instead of the end of the next decade... maybe...

sigh.......

[pamarine]

Tom,

I am actually surprised to see you are having a hard time finding something other than E-10. I didn't know anywhere in NC used ethanol blends. I guess we can thank NCDOT for another outstanding job notifying the public about changes. (I seem to recall a ridiculous law a few years ago about trailers over 80" wide on holidays). Is this just in the Jacksonville area or is it more widespread? I try to make trips across the border (NE NC) to top the boat off with non-ethanol gas but won't waste the time if it's gonna be E-10.

[ondarvr]

In my part of the country we've been mandated to use blended fuel for more than a decade, yes there were some clogged carbs and filters when it was first introduced, but after that it wasn't a big issue. Many problems get blamed on ethanol, but most aren't the result of it, its just an easy target.

The FRP fuel tank is the biggest issue and has no easy solution other than replace it. If your fuel system is old enough to still have non alcohol resistant components, then its long over due for a rebuild. If you don't have the correct fuel/water separator and filter, then you should install one immediately no matter which fuel you use.

I don't like it, and would rather not have it added to my fuel, but I don't stress over what it "may" do if I don't use good fuel handling practices.
With a few minor changes in your routine you shouldn't have any issues.

[tom28571]

Tom,

I am actually surprised to see you are having a hard time finding something other than E-10. I didn't know anywhere in NC used ethanol blends. I guess we can thank NCDOT for another outstanding job notifying the public about changes. (I seem to recall a ridiculous law a few years ago about trailers over 80" wide on holidays). Is this just in the Jacksonville area or is it more widespread? I try to make trips across the border (NE NC) to top the boat off with non-ethanol gas but won't waste the time if it's gonna be E-10.

I don't know how widespread ethanol is but do know it is here. Worse problem I've seen is pistons with tops blown out by pre-detonation. The analysis was that the ethanol absorbed moisture and settled out and lowered the octane enough to cause serious detonation. This 4cylinder Honda had only 30 hours on it.

You could say that it was the owner's fault for allowing the gas to sit too long but that was normal in the past. I used to fill a small tank on a sailboat once a year and had some left over at the end of the year. No problem.

ondarvr,

Although you are correct that preventive measures can eliminate or reduce the problem, it does not justify mandating this crap when it is an economic failure. We do need alternative fuels but I notice that only the mega farmers are able to get such mandates and taxpayer subsidies to support it. So far ethanol in the US is a net negative. Brazil seems to be doing a better job with it.

[pamarine]

I don't know how widespread ethanol is but do know it is here. Worse problem I've seen is pistons with tops blown out by pre-detonation. The analysis was that the ethanol absorbed moisture and settled out and lowered the octane enough to cause serious detonation. This 4cylinder Honda had only 30 hours on it.

You could say that it was the owner's fault for allowing the gas to sit too long but that was normal in the past. I used to fill a small tank on a sailboat once a year and had some left over at the end of the year. No problem.



Guess I'll have to keep a lookout next time I drive to moyock. Thanks for the heads-up.

[ondarvr]

ondarvr,

Although you are correct that preventive measures can eliminate or reduce the problem, it does not justify mandating this crap when it is an economic failure. We do need alternative fuels but I notice that only the mega farmers are able to get such mandates and taxpayer subsidies to support it. So far ethanol in the US is a net negative. Brazil seems to be doing a better job with it.


Like I said, I don't like or want it, and yes I think its a scam. But with a few changes its not the problem that some want to make it out to be. These horror stories are retold many times and it sounds like its happening to every motor out there when the actual problems are few and far between.

[tom28571]

Like I said, I don't like or want it, and yes I think its a scam. But with a few changes its not the problem that some want to make it out to be. These horror stories are retold many times and it sounds like its happening to every motor out there when the actual problems are few and far between.

Perhaps ethanol, having been introduced to your area some time ago, the boaters have had time to sort things out. We have only just started getting this stuff and the "horror" stories I relate are all real and happening now. Exposing them can only help the public become knowledgeable enough to take preventive action before they also get caught.

One more thing. I think you may have implied that there are resins available now that are impervious to ethanol. Is that so? What resins are they? I have used isothalic but am now told that it is not good enough.

[ondarvr]

When I said alcohol resistant fuel system, I didn't really mean the fuel tank, I meant fuel lines, carb parts and things like that. I think it was in the late
1980's when most of these parts started to be made to work with ethanol, so if someone hasn't changed these items before now, its long overdue.

[pamarine]

Perhaps ethanol, having been introduced to your area some time ago, the boaters have had time to sort things out. We have only just started getting this stuff and the "horror" stories I relate are all real and happening now. Exposing them can only help the public become knowledgeable enough to take preventive action before they also get caught.

One more thing. I think you may have implied that there are resins available now that are impervious to ethanol. Is that so? What resins are they? I have used isothalic but am now told that it is not good enough.

There are several ethanol-resistant resins out there. The first place to start looking would be Underwriter's Labs for resins they have certified as fuel and fuel-additive resistant.

The best material to make a tank out of imo is HDPE (if you don't want metal) or Aluminum or Steel (Depending on vessel contrstruction).

As for the rest of the fuel-system, make sure any components you are using are SAE Certified (and USCG) and were made after 1993, as this is when alcohol-resistance regulations went in to effect.

[powerabout]

MoGas (Automotive Gasoline) sold for use in aircraft will be ethanol free, but AvGas (Aviation Gasoline) is leaded and not suitable for use in modern marine (or automobile) engines.

What problems have you had as a result of Ethanol-blended gasoline? I understand your aversion to it from an economic and political standpoint but have yet to see a mechanical reason not to run it.

I dont see the problem with using AV Gas in any outboard or inboards as I havn't seen one yet ( OK one Yam 2 stroke does) with an oxygen sensor in the exhaust and Cat Conv on inboards wont exist till 2011
Its properties are very suited to boat owners as the fuel is designed to be stable in both sealed storage and unsealed storage.
It does have a very high lead content both 100 and 100LL ( more than pump gas ever did)
I know many guys in the US ( where it is easy to get) run it in all their engines, chaninsaws, whipper snippers , skidoo's etc.
Its compatible with BIA TCW oils
That certainly gets you away from the Ethanol problems

[hoytedow]

Corn is for eating and ethanol is for drinking. It should never have been put in motor fuel. It is a ripoff.

[pamarine]

I dont see the problem with using AV Gas in any outboard or inboards as I havn't seen one yet ( OK one Yam 2 stroke does) with an oxygen sensor in the exhaust and Cat Conv on inboards wont exist till 2011
Its properties are very suited to boat owners as the fuel is designed to be stable in both sealed storage and unsealed storage.
It does have a very high lead content both 100 and 100LL ( more than pump gas ever did)
I know many guys in the US ( where it is easy to get) run it in all their engines, chaninsaws, whipper snippers , skidoo's etc.
Its compatible with BIA TCW oils
That certainly gets you away from the Ethanol problems

Problem #1, it's illegal.

Problem #2, Lead fouling will void engine warranties.

[pamarine]

Corn is for eating and ethanol is for drinking. It should never have been put in motor fuel. It is a ripoff.

Here Here! *raises a glass of 191

[Red Tide]

Does anyone know why it's legal to burn leaded fuel in aircraft but not in boats?

[FAST FRED]

AV gas is one cure , in most Motor homes they install a seperiate tank for the gen set ,as it sees/sits fuel for the longest periods of time.Most that can have switched to propane for the genset ,not practical on a vessel.

For outboards the simple cure is to use portable tanks and dump the unused crap into your family car .

Yes, its a pain but beats rowing for sure.

The cruisers with dinks simply get metal OB tanks and go to the local airport. The fuel is transfered into a 3 gal tank and mixed with oil, when the dink will be used.

My concept is to modify a old gas blowtorch to use on a BBQ that would hook to the OB tank.. At least it beats pouring it out behind the beach.

3 weeks is about the limit of a oil mix before both the ethanol and octane have killed the fuel, but that should not bother the BBQ.

"Does anyone know why it's legal to burn leaded fuel in aircraft but not in boats?"

The aircraft engines on tiny aircraft are basically 1930's designs and require the lead operation.
The politicos have a harder time when aircraft engines cease to function , by their EDICT!

Than when a boater needs a new fuel tank system and the engine rebuilt.

FF

[hoytedow]

Does anyone know why it's legal to burn leaded fuel in aircraft but not in boats?Because the people who make laws are idiots?

[powerabout]

Problem #1, it's illegal.

Problem #2, Lead fouling will void engine warranties.
I didn't know its illegal?
I dont see the APBA saying its outlawed becasue it contains lead?

I'm not sure lead fouling is an issue if it doesn't happen to a 1930's magneto system I find it hard to believe it will to a modern CDI ignition
Never heard of a problem on a race motor
Merc and OMC have both recommmended it over the years in production race motors.
The term lead fouling disappeared in the 50's I would have thought.

[pamarine]

Does anyone know why it's legal to burn leaded fuel in aircraft but not in boats?

only because most aircraft piston engine were certified using leaded gas. You can get supplimental certificate for unleaded mogas (no ethanol), but they are done on an individual basis.

Aviation gasoline has a lower vapor pressure than Automotive Gasoline (7 vs 14). The Lead is introduced to reduce engine knock, and scavengers to remove the lead residue from the engine. Since aircraft are typically run lean to increase power and efficiency, these two combine to give the best performance at altitude.

It's just too expensive to change atm. and with non-ethanol gas becoming difficult to find, it may never happen. However, what may being the end of Leaded AvGas is not the led, but the scavenging agent. It is currently made in only a handful of places in the world, but due to environmental concerns, that will eventually end.

[pamarine]

I didn't know its illegal?
I dont see the APBA saying its outlawed becasue it contains lead?

I'm not sure lead fouling is an issue if it doesn't happen to a 1930's magneto system I find it hard to believe it will to a modern CDI ignition
Never heard of a problem on a race motor
Merc and OMC have both recommmended it over the years in production race motors.
The term lead fouling disappeared in the 50's I would have thought.

trust me, it still occurs. I'm an Aircraft Mechanic by trade and it is one of the more common ailments in those engines.

As for the Merc Racing engines:

Models Affected
▲ All Mercury/Mariner and Mercury Racing Outboards, and Jet Drive

▲ USA and Canada - having a posted pump Octane Rating of 87 (R+M)/2 minimum.
Premium gasoline [92 (R+M)/2 Octane] is also acceptable, and is required in some Mercury
Racing Outboards. Do NOT use leaded gasoline.

[marshmat]

The reported lower mileage when using ethanol, that has been mentioned here, is due simply to the fact that, for equivalent energy content, gasoline weighs about 40 percent less than ethanol and takes up about 40 percent less volume. (Of course, the logical conclusion from this fact is that ethanol at the pump should cost at least 40 percent less than the same volume of gasoline....)

To those who are having problems with fuel system fouling after their region switched to ethanol blended fuels: Your refineries must be doing something wrong. Or they're cheaping out somehow. There are all sorts of problems that ethanol blended fuel can cause, if it's badly refined or has the wrong additive packages. Properly refined and with the appropriate additives, ethanol blends up to 10% should pose no problem for most engines.

Here in Ontario, we can get up to 10% ethanol in our 87-octane (R+M/2) gasoline (although, depending on the season and availability, it is sometimes quite a bit less). People regularly add a shot of stabilizer to the stuff, leave it in the tank for eight months of winter, and pump it straight into the outboard in the spring. Problems seem to be rather rare.

[powerabout]

Marshmat
I think just the issue that its a solvent and hydroscopic its causing the problems in boats as they have non return fuel systems that are vented to the atmosphere.
It doesnt seem to like to sit like it does in a garden tool or boat.
( being stable while it sits is a fundmental standard of avgas)
Large production boat bulders in the states will have to use charcoal cannister tank vents from 2010 ( I think) so some probs might go away.

When I place a small open container of acetone on the ground here in Singapore, after 15 minutes its got a tablespoon of water in the bottom, sucked straight from the air.
I never saw that happening when I lived in Melboune ( OZ)

[powerabout]

trust me, it still occurs. I'm an Aircraft Mechanic by trade and it is one of the more common ailments in those engines.

As for the Merc Racing engines:
I wonder if they say that because;
1) dont test so say dont use ( like a cell phone in a plane)
2) EPA rules prevent them from saying otherwise.

I'll drop an email to a mate at BRP and see what they say
Cheers

[pamarine]

I wonder if they say that because;
1) dont test so say dont use ( like a cell phone in a plane)
2) EPA rules prevent them from saying otherwise.

I'll drop an email to a mate at BRP and see what they say
Cheers

Cell phone in plane is actually well-tested and proven to have some to no effect on navigation equipment, So...FAA says no in commercial airliners (better be safe than sorry, but in these days of digital phones, it's closer to none)

I think it's both a mechnical and EPA thing.

[CDK]

When I place a small open container of acetone on the ground here in Singapore, after 15 minutes its got a tablespoon of water in the bottom, sucked straight from the air.
I never saw that happening when I lived in Melboune ( OZ)

Works with any volatile liquid in high humidity air. Evaporation lowers the temperature and condensation occurs. Whether or not the solvent is hygroscopic is of no importance.
I think that the fact that gasoline and water do not mix led to the use of poor materials like paper gaskets and cheap alloys. With the addition of ethanol these weakness becomes manifest.

I do not understand the negative attitude towards ethanol: it is the major ingredient of a bottle of Jack Daniels.

[powerabout]

Works with any volatile liquid in high humidity air. Evaporation lowers the temperature and condensation occurs. Whether or not the solvent is hygroscopic is of no importance.
I think that the fact that gasoline and water do not mix led to the use of poor materials like paper gaskets and cheap alloys. With the addition of ethanol these weakness becomes manifest.

I do not understand the negative attitude towards ethanol: it is the major ingredient of a bottle of Jack Daniels.

I rememer a few of us putting up a sign in our yacht club Bar( over the drink drive warning one)
It said
''Drink dont Drive'
''Beer cheaper than fuel here'

That was when fuel hit the roof with the usd150/bbl
The green lobby in Australia is saying that the ethanol is made from the molasses left behind from the suger production?
I guess the Queenslanders would be complaining if it up'd the price of that stuff they call Bundy ( Bundaberg Rum)
( People think only Australians can eat Vegemite, well only Queenlanders can drunk Bundy)


Makes we wonder these days what charge ( if any) the good old boys in North Carolina would be charged with if stopped by the police with a car full of bottles of clear liquid?
Does that make Joe Kennedy an environmentalist rather than a bootlegger?

[FAST FRED]

In a hard working aircraft engine (Takeoff) the exhaust valves are hot enough that spots on the valve and exhaust seat will actually weld themselves together.

When broken by the next valve movement the welded spot leaves , causing valve seat erosion, and pitted valves.

LEAD is the lubricant that slows the erosion ,(the parts touch on a film of lead) as well as raising the octane rating of the fuel.

Removing the ethanol is simple , simply ADD WATER to the fuel in a clear 5-gal jug.

The water and ethanol will overnight sink to the bottom and the top portion can simply be syphoned off.

Dump the bottom residue in the gas tank of your local politicos limo.

FF

[tom28571]

In a hard working aircraft engine (Takeoff) the exhaust valves are hot enough that spots on the valve and exhaust seat will actually weld themselves together.

When broken by the next valve movement the welded spot leaves , causing valve seat erosion, and pitted valves.

LEAD is the lubricant that slows the erosion ,(the parts touch on a film of lead) as well as raising the octane rating of the fuel.

Removing the ethanol is simple , simply ADD WATER to the fuel in a clear 5-gal jug.

The water and ethanol will overnight sink to the bottom and the top portion can simply be syphoned off.

Dump the bottom residue in the gas tank of your local politicos limo.

FF

Fred,

I'm no chemist, but what happens to the octane when you do that?

[powerabout]

it will be lower than what it was as the ethanol is higher octane than pump gas

[tom28571]

it will be lower than what it was as the ethanol is higher octane than pump gas

Yes, and I saw an outboard that had the tops of two pistons blown out and blamed on that from pre-detonation. The factory rep agreed and is replacing the powerhead with only 30 hours on it.

[marshmat]

Yes, and I saw an outboard that had the tops of two pistons blown out and blamed on that from pre-detonation. The factory rep agreed and is replacing the powerhead with only 30 hours on it.
Ouch.

This is one of the rare times I'm glad my boat has a 1994 two-stroke Johnson..... the owner's manual for this thing advises that it is not advisable to use fuel with "less than 67 octane" :D

On a closely related note, there are some suspicions going around that part of the reason the oil companies like alcohols is that a 10% ethanol blend boosts the octane rating enough that they can use slightly crappier, more cheaply refined stuff for the oil-based part of the fuel....

[TollyWally]

I've friends in the oil industry who have worked in refineries. The money is really in moving product through the system smoothly without disruption for good margins. Oil companies don't grow corn, alcohol isn't really their thing but they have to take the heat for it's drawbacks.

[u4ea32]

In California, alcohol has been blended with fuels for a long time -- maybe 2 decades now. It has made a HUGE difference in air quality. I have never noticed any problems with any of my boats, carbed or injected, 2 stroke or 4 stroke, used weekly or quarterly. Absolutely never any problem. No difference with the recent increase in percentage.

I'm not saying people don't have problems with their boats, but I have never seen a fuel problem.

Alcohol is SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper per BTU than gasoline: its total cost, including buying the land, irrigation, fabrication, and delivery to the pump, is about $1.10 per the same BTUs as a gallon of gasoline. Its much cheaper than petroleum, so the oil companies use it to (a) meet clean burning fuel standards, and (b) to reduce the cost of their product.

I only know this because I did an extensive business plan (financial model) for a substantial investor.

Few people have done this analysis, and those that do, tend to pour a LOT of money into alcohol fuel production.

[powerabout]

U4ea32
You say cheaper ok but almost every analysis I see shows it carbon negative versus gas given all the extra burnt trying to produce it.

Even in OZ where they are using the molasses left over from the sugar production, there is no business case for it without government grants, hence the alcohol producers are the biggest contribitors to the current goverenment re donations...you wouldnt need to do that if you had a good business would you?

[FAST FRED]

10% alcohol , if removed will return the gas to the octane , with out the alky.

For boats using gasahol the problem frequently is not octane ,
the carb system flows a certain GPH of fuel to a certain volume of air.

The alcohol takes up room in the fuel flow , but unless much larger jets are installed the mixture will have to run lean at WOT.

Perhaps this is the reason for melted pistons , not detonation.

Folks worried about lead fouling with 100LL can use Alcor TCP lead scavenger (hard to find) or Decalin from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty, $27.40 + $10 shipping . A quart will doctor 640 gallons.


FF

[TollyWally]

I remain rather skeptical of any negative effects of carbon production but I am interested in the caloric inputs neccessary to grow and distill fuel.

[CDK]

10% alcohol , if removed will return the gas to the octane , with out the alky.

For boats using gasahol the problem frequently is not octane ,
the carb system flows a certain GPH of fuel to a certain volume of air.

The alcohol takes up room in the fuel flow , but unless much larger jets are installed the mixture will have to run lean at WOT.

Perhaps this is the reason for melted pistons , not detonation.

Folks worried about lead fouling with 100LL can use Alcor TCP lead scavenger (hard to find) or Decalin from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty, $27.40 + $10 shipping . A quart will doctor 640 gallons.


FF

That question is hard to answer Fred.

Alcohol is C2H5OH, fossile fuel is a mixture of CH4, C2H6, C3H8, C4H10, C5H12 and so on.
For a fixed amount of mixed fuel, the caloric value decreases if more ethanol is added. The difference is not very impressive, but it is there.

To burn C2H5OH, you need 3 O2 to make 2 CO2 and 2 H2O, the 3rd H2O is formed with the O already present. To burn a hydrocarbon like C2H6, you need 3.5 O2 to make 2 CO2 and 3 H2O, so if the air/fuel ratio is correct for hydrocarbons, the presence of ethanol will make it lean. And we do know that a lean mixture increases the combustion temperature.

But that knowledge applies to hydrocarbons only. If we add ethanol, the caloric value is reduced, so the combustion temperature should be a fraction lower.....

[powerabout]

I would agree with that Fred, you need to burn more alcohol so an engine jetted for gas/petrol will be lean when using a mix and that can be instant death for a 2 stroke especially an older one with higher compression.

[TollyWally]

The drag racing boys burn alcohol because it runs cooler. This allows them to avoid detonation and run higher compression. They also run larger jets. The larger jets thing seems to tie in with CDK's point about ethanol needing different air/fuel ratios to avoid a lean condition.

[powerabout]

Sure does Tolly
I remember guys racing Merc V6 outboards on methanol in OZ, they removed the main jets and it just ran through the threaded hole so they used plenty.

[Boston]

Glad you asked:mad:

I have heard of others with worse problems but here is my recent experience.

1980 Evinrude 25: Carb rebuild. Hanging float from varnish.
Stihl chainsaw: New Carb. Shop would not rebuild
Yamaha 50: Rebuild all four carbs. Hanging floats and clogged jets.
Replacing home built fuel tank in power cruiser with commercial one.

Dealer told me that I had to drain the individual carbs after use on the Yamaha if I could not get ethanol free gas. I am now using an additive that is supposed to help.

Total cost. Almost $600 for no other reason than ethanol crap. This is minor to what a few others have had to fork out.

My own experience shows significantly lower fuel mileage on vehicles with ethanol "enhanced" fuel. I do not notice any other problems with vehicles. Probably because of the sealed fuel system on cars that is not practical on marine or other units.

In addition, will probably buy a portable fuel caddy with pump to fetch ethanol free from source to avoid these problems. This is not hassle free either. The marina source is not accessible with a vehicle and they won't like to pump small quantities. Next nearest source is over 30 miles if I'm lucky.

This seems like quite enough sacrifice so that we can subsidize farmers with our taxes for ethanol. Don't forget significantly higher prices on anything that uses corn in its processing, especially food.

Even the marine mechanics that gain income from ethanol problems are mad because it is clogging their work load with up to a two month backlog in the peak season.

That is all I can think of at the moment.


I dont like ethanol
it takes about 250 to 350 lbs of corn to produce an average automobile tank of ethanol
at 10% ok thats ten tanks of gasahol
but its still what it would take to feed one adult for one year
its a bad idea all around
but
your complaints are not all that sound
a thirty year old Evenrude with a gummed up carb
c mon that thing is ancient and bound to have a screwed up something regardless of fuel
did you drain it and run it dry after each use
small motor
takes a little more care to keep it ship shape

Stihl chain say
serves you right
buy a Husky next time
and run it dry after each use like they tell you to do

yamacowasucki 50
again would have solved the problem to simply run it out of fuel after each use

all problems could have been solved with out spending a dime had you been on it

as it is your blaming alcohol for a maintenance issue

stuff eats rubber
rubber gum's **** up
run the engine dry after each use and you should be fine
that way the alcohol doesn't sit and make sludge out to the rubber components

one thing that is news to me is that it seems your suggesting that they are putting alcohol into diesel

Ill have to look into that one as Ive not heard it before

so in conclusion
don't let fuel sit in small engines
screws em up and glazes ****
alcohol or no

don't buy crap chain saws

and a thirty year old Evenrude is bound to need a rebuild

that and some skinny bastard in Africa will thank you for not making one tank of fuel out of enough food to feed his sorry ass for a year

oh
and it does seriously effect mileage
for the worse
stuff has 1/3 less btu value per gallon
and it burns at a different stage of the stroke
so its a wash in an engine designed to run gas
that's why you loose the percentage dilution
its not igniting at the right time
I think
not positive about that but my old neighbor used to race indi cars and they run on alcohol so yell at him if I got it back wards or anything

cheers
B

[powerabout]

And if you have a fuel injected stern drive or outboard which all have dead end ( no return line) fuel systems, it rusts away stuff as the water cant get out of the system

[Boston]

now that was a viable bitch

that **** sucks moisture out of the air and needs to be in an air tight container at all times or it gets wet
the additive Tom is probably talking about is likely something that addresses that issue

[Frosty]

Standing in the supermarket the other day was gallon cans of palm oil stacked higher than 2 men.

It worked out marginally more than B5 deisel that I normally use , had it not I would have been tempted to fill the truck with it.

33 degrees every day in the shade should not present a problem.

Perhaps bung in a pint of petrol per tank for a bit of kick on starting.

[Boston]

palm oil is fast becoming the largest contributor to deforestation in the tropics
I avoid palm oil as often as possible
even here its in about 10% of all grocery products
they even put it in milk

B

[Frosty]

palm oil is fast becoming the largest contributor to deforestation in the tropics
I avoid palm oil as often as possible
even here its in about 10% of all grocery products
they even put it in milk

B

Nice to know our governments have our best interests at heart is'nt it?

I love "potato chips" as you call them but if I think Palm oil as I buy them I can usually put them back on the shelf.

[TollyWally]

Boston,
Most of your post is a little off base. You are missing the forest because of the trees. While ethanol has many downsides the single largest one in older equipment is the solvent action. Dissolving accumulations of otherwise stable residue in fuel tanks and running it through the fuel system is the biggest problem, not running Swedish chainsaws vs German ones or the age of your Evinrude.

[powerabout]

Tolly good point, its a solvent causing big problems...

Especially as in the US they always had crap in the fuel forming varnish.
We were always told about this during training ( Merc/OMC) but its unheard of in Australia
Take an engine that has been left for 5 years and the carb is as clean as the day it was made....
of course that will now change as there is ethanol in OZ now

[TollyWally]

Sorry to hear you have poisoned your gas. What were the differences in the composition of gasoline in the States and down under? Or anywhere else for that matter.

[Boston]

just having a good time with it Tolly
no worries
but I do think that the leaning problem mentioned by several folks is the bigger issue rather than the solvent issue
rubber components may need to be changed
but re-jetting is more of a guess and your likely to not get it quite right
better be running rich than lean but all in all
there is just no excuse for putting the **** in the fuel in the first place
it was a dumb idea and still is

whats really funny is that gas seldom has the octane rating its specified to have
so your already got one variable
now throw in alcohol and try and re-jet
you end up guessing

and if your car is computer controlled and fuel injected
your stuck with whatever it gives you eat the engine or not

cheers
B

dont eat chips frosty
nothing but grease my friend
remember
buffalo and duck, venison, elk and raw vegetables, lots of raw fish
and lots and lots of beer
as my Lokota friends would say Hoka hey

[Frosty]

Cripes Buffalo , duck elk and venison ---never ever have I eaten them maybe a bit of duck ,--far too rich for me ,--do you have gout.

Raw vetetables sometimes but thats a good way to get worms.

Fish of course,--beer?-- whats that?

[powerabout]

Sorry to hear you have poisoned your gas. What were the differences in the composition of gasoline in the States and down under? Or anywhere else for that matter.

No idea whats different but up till late 70's our gas was from our own oil, then consumption out stripped supply so we swap LPG for oil now.
E10 is still rare and each state has a diffent rule, most not yet approving it.

IF, IF, IF it was viable to produce I think it should only be 100% and cars should have a button to select 100% ethanol or make a model ethanol only along with the very high compression ratio that they could run would produce less emissions and possibly same or more power( but the carbon produced during the production of ethanol would probably wipe that out)

[Boston]

the next craze is celulitic ethanol as they have some pretty incredible digestive enzymes worked out and also way higher tolerance yeast on the way very soon

Frosty
Gout is caused by to much beef and that because beef is so contaminated with hormones and excess and unnatural fats. If you ate game animal it would not likely effect your condition
consult your doctor of course but circulation issues I deal with by taking herbs and eating lots of fish. Game animal should not adversely effect gout.
try a little and see my bet is your doctor will be ok with it but check first to make sure. Its not that meet is bad its just what we have done to meet that is bad. Game animal is as of yet unmodified or adulterated with antibiotics and hormones or genetic engineered fats

best of luck
and whats this tripe about no beer
rumor is you could put the pope under the table mate
cheers

B

[powerabout]

Boston

Americans cant talk about food to foreigners...
After all you put Soya products in everything and thats poison!
The Global Soya lobby is run by 2 companies that spend more on brain washing than all the cigarette companies combined.

Google soya is poison

[Boston]

watch me ( I got talking, cooking and eating down to an art mate )
I dont touch soy
its
um
poison :D :P :D

being half Iroquois I got kinda the best of both worlds
a bad ticker from my father
and some dam good looks from my dear old mum
means Ill probably glitch mid thrust on some seriously beautiful young babe you couldn't have landed when you were in your twenties let alone sporting a high forty

its the only decent way to go if you ask me

oops
need another beer
B

[powerabout]

ha haa

last time I checked they are still making 'seriously beautiful young babes'
so I even if i'm left with the ones you reject, there will be plenty...
and...being still in my 40's with all grandparents living to late 90's, no smoking, healthy ozzie life style, I'll be moving into first place eventually...
if only to remember being 20!

( just dreaming, I am married)

[pamarine]

They had talked about adding ethanol to diesel fuels, but then quickly realised that the infrastructure upgrades required were cost prohibitive, and the idea has since been scrapped by the EPA. Ironically, at the federal level, so has Ethanol in Gasoline. But most states are still requiring it's use.

[Frosty]

Gout,--I don't have it ,--all my mates do that eat Turkey, ham bacon cheese etc etc. I don't eat rich food.

favourite meal--tuna salad.

[Boston]

ya those are all the classic; hormone drenched antibiotic injected genetically engineered extra fatty and live in there own wall to wall crap. will kill you meats

Montfort foods is huge in this country and raise most of the pigs around here. Wonderfully caring folks that they are they dreamed up a system of farming that must have come straight from hell itself. They call it the three tier method of pig farming. Goes something like this.

you take a pig and place it in a cage just about large enough to fit its ass in. then you stack three cages on top of one another. One half of the bottom is a metal plate the other half is a wire mesh. Rig water to all three cages but, and here is my favorite part, you only feed the pig on top. the next pig down eats some spillage and gets pissed on from time to time Since he's still hungry eats the other pigs ****. the pig on bottom, he pretty much eats **** in a cage he can barely turn around in, wondering why its raining piss while staring at a bunch of other pigs pretty much doing the same, as far as the eye can see. The system is basically automated so the pig might actually only see a human once or twice up to the point of slaughter. One the guy that stuffed him in the cage and two the guy who comes along with a electric prod and throws his squealing but on out of it. Kinda makes you proud to be a human doesn't it. Then comes the trauma of getting your brains scrambled by by the third human your likely to ever see this one with a bolt gun

Thats a whole other nightmare

enjoy that bacon kids
now you know what fed that pig eh
yummmm
bacon

its mostly pig ****
so go ahead
have some more
package says its good for you and is chock full of vitamins and minerals

[Jimbo1490]

The drag racing boys burn alcohol because it runs cooler. This allows them to avoid detonation and run higher compression. They also run larger jets. The larger jets thing seems to tie in with CDK's point about ethanol needing different air/fuel ratios to avoid a lean condition.


This isn't why they run alcohol in race engines. They run it because it make more power, FAR more in fact. It makes more power because it burns at a much richer air/fuel ratio than typical gasoline (9.5:1 vs 14.7:1). This allows you to burn substantially more fuel, releasing more heat per unit of time, thus more power. The lower energy density of ethanol is easily offset by the richer stoichiometry, thus power increases. The fuel economy is appallingly bad, but you do make more power.

Jimbo

[TollyWally]

Jimbo,
I've read enough of your posts not to argue with you on this subject. I thought the "extra" power came from the higher compression and lower tendencies for detonation. I knew they ran greater amounts of fuel through the motors.

It was my understanding that they ran a lot more lower caloric fuel at greater compression to extract more horsepower. The key being the higher compression ratios available and lower detonatation tendencies running the cooler burning alky.

We may be talking about the same thing but you obviously understand it at a deeper level. I look forward to you setting me straight, I'm basically here to learn.

[Frosty]

In Uk --cows --bolt gun, sheep is slit throat, pig is electrical through ear to ear.

I have no idea why different methods.

[Jimbo1490]

Jimbo,
I've read enough of your posts not to argue with you on this subject. I thought the "extra" power came from the higher compression and lower tendencies for detonation. I knew they ran greater amounts of fuel through the motors.

It was my understanding that they ran a lot more lower caloric fuel at greater compression to extract more horsepower. The key being the higher compression ratios available and lower detonatation tendencies running the cooler burning alky.

We may be talking about the same thing but you obviously understand it at a deeper level. I look forward to you setting me straight, I'm basically here to learn.

Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113. Compare to pure toluene at 114 and methanol at 107. Many racing gasoline formulations (http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-drag-racing.html) have octane ratings in this range and higher, so the octane rating is not the key to the power gains, it's the fuel/air ratio.

Additionally, the alcohols all have a problem with 'octane sensitivity' which is indicated by a big spread between the research (R) and motor (M) octane numbers. Their 'R' number is very high, the 'M' number not so good, and the average is what is quoted as the specification. To make a long story short, a racing gasoline formulation with an octane rating of 113 will typically have more resistance to detonation than ethanol, because of the smaller spread between R and M octane ratings.

The combustion (chamber) temperature is another issue altogether. Though excessive chamber temperature can create a condition which leads to pre-ignition (dieseling), this is *not* *quite* *exactly* the same problem as detonation (very long explanation about 'abnormal combustion' avoided :D), for which alcohol, as pointed out, is only an average performer. Alcohol burns cooler in an engine because of its specific heat properties and it's transitional heat properties (the heat change resulting from evaporation) coupled with it's richer stoichiometry, meaning there's a lot more of it going through the engine, end evaporating (absorbing heat),thus lowering combustion chamber temperatures and providing a barrier against dieseling due to excessive combustion chamber temperature.

Jimbo

[TollyWally]

Thanks Jimbo,
Feel free to expand on topics such as these at will, whenever and where ever. :)

[Boston]

Jim has always expressed a rather intimate knowledge of the oil and gas industry from everything Ive read of him. Its always nice having some first hand information on the subject. Glad to hear they are "not" going to be putting alcohol in diesel. Seems to me alcohol works best in engines specifically designed to burn the stuff, mixing fuels with such wildly different charictoristics just doesn't lend itself to efficiency as near as I can tell.

cheers
B

[powerabout]

Trouble with alcohol is you have to put so much liquid down the hole it displaces the air.
It really only works great on injected engines where the injector can shoot past the inlet valve like dirt track engines and older F1 style engines.

On outboards via carbs its cannot produce as much power as pump gas ( due to the restircted air flow) so very few people use it today.
Saying that it is still used on vintage racing outboards as thats what they were designed to run on and with castor oil the smell is fantastic!

PS One place it is used on modern outboards is when you run nitrous as some drag classes allow.
When you hit the button instead of adding fuel with the nitrous you add methanol to cool it down and keep it alive, you also need a special programme to be able to shut it off slowly or ka boom!

[marshmat]

Seems to me alcohol works best in engines specifically designed to burn the stuff
In general, yes. Such engines are, overall, quite similar to conventional gasoline engines but, as has been said, better performance on ethanol can be obtained with a slightly modified engine design (different fuel/air ratio, higher compression, etc.)

If we talk about fuel consumption in terms of litres / gallons, we cannot directly compare ethanol to gasoline, as the latter carries more energy for the same mass or volume.

Glad to hear they are "not" going to be putting alcohol in diesel.
Yup. It is highly unlikely that alcohols will be added to diesel fuel in any significant quantity- alcohol's properties are, in many respects, quite the opposite of what is desirable in diesel fuel. And diesels have their own, cheaper and simpler to produce biofuels.


PS One place it is used on modern outboards is when you run nitrous as some drag classes allow.
When you hit the button instead of adding fuel with the nitrous you add methanol to cool it down and keep it alive, you also need a special programme to be able to shut it off slowly or ka boom!
Where I live (Ontario), they recently had to ban NOx systems from public roads, the things having been deemed too great a safety hazard. It seems that cars so equipped crash at a much greater rate than normal cars (I wonder why...) and the systems' tendency to explode shortly after a crash makes it extremely dangerous for the firefighters to get the driver out.

[powerabout]

Imagine a toyota prius on Nox...
with a 600v dc capacitor in an accident!!

[powerabout]

I got my answer back from BRP re leaded fuel and avgas
'it will not cause any problem'
( unless you have an oxygen sensor which outboards dont have ( ok except one yam))

it did in the 60's when the lead scavengers were poor but by the 70's and the ignition systems got better the porblems were gone.

[Paul No Boat]

I drive a 99 Ford Ranger with flexfuel. I tried the ethynol E-85 a couple years ago and I hate it. terrible milage, hard starting etc. and it is not really saving us since it takes a lot of capitol outlay to produce it. But I am glad it is there should we ever run into the shortages we had in the 70s.

I am not sure I would go so far as to call it a ruse, but I think it just got hyped at a time when we were unsure what the hell the gas market was going to do.

I do like using the E-10 tho as it does keep the injectors nice and clean.

I am sure it has its place in the whole energy scheme, but it seems to me the best place to use it would be locally in Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas where they can at least lose the transport costs. Let the corn farmers burn it in their tractors and they can charge us less for a dozen ears of sweet corn.

[powerabout]

Paul no boat
I do think there is a future for alcohol but it should be 100% and engines designed or it.
I agree the financials only seem to make sense if the stuff is being used where it is made so no transport to the customer.
If a farmer cant make his own fuel for everything. truck tractor, gen set then its proof to me its not viable

[Paul No Boat]

I agree, Powerabout.

The whole new energy game will have to find its appropriate applications.
I live in a dead zone of wind and yet there are people trying to get involved in wind power. The fast food resturants are selling their french fry grease to recycle into diesel fuel but after all the transport and processing, quite possibly more fuel is consumed than produced. I say use that oil right on site and heat the very restaurants producing it.

Ethynol technology can be extreamly valuable but there might be better uses of it than in cars and boats.

Lumbermills have done this for years using the woodchips to heat and power the mills. I read 75% of the timber cut is used by the mills themselves.

[Boston]

its not 75%
I go to the mills fairly regularly for local hardwoods and these guys always have a barrel of fire to help keep the place warm
its not big deal cause they have a lot of waist squaring up the timber but still its not 75%

maybe 10 or 15%

and its unprocessed
they just slice it down to reasonable size and throw it in a barrel

works like a charm

B

[hoytedow]

It may be less than 10 or 15 % now since the advent of particle board made even sawdust useable. Another example: Aspenite.
And even the bark is sold for garden mulch.

[Jimbo1490]

Ethanol from food crops is a ruse at best, a potential food shortage disaster for poor countries at worst. But cellulosic ethanol is about to come on line in a big way . This has been working quietly behind the scene for more than a decade, now. They have achieved 3X energy balance with it (food crop ethanol is only up to about 1.5X) and that was with small experimental plants. The big production plants are promising 7-10X energy balance, and immediately competitive with crude oil, even at <$50/barrel! Since there is no paper waste/yard clipping/mulch lobby to promote it, this one has snuck up on just about everybody.

Jimbo

[Paul No Boat]

when i said mills I was thinking more about the big corporate mills US plywood, Weyerhaeuser, international paper, etc as a printer I got to visit a paper mill once that place was huge. and fast paced with silos full of scrap and mill slabs

[Frosty]

Aussie inventor program on the tely about this aussy compnay converting water to oil with some bacteria, it seemed a little difficult to cultivate and control if I remember correctly , however oil it was and it was clean and burned.

It was too much per liter at that time to be used as fuel but ive not heard anything for a while.

I suppose the oil companies would buy that up in a heart beat.

[powerabout]

I guess as OZ has found even more gas so still no takers?