Diesel Electric Conversions - Are Systems Available

[Barron]

Question guys. what conversions are available for ships with these dimensions

LOA 150
Beam 29
Draft 12
@ 300 tons

Current engine 1560 hp @ 500 - 600 rpm
Cruise @ 20knots


I know there are tons of things for commercial ships and even the small boat on the water ways. I am wondering if anyone has heard of anything for something like this ?

Thanks

[apex1]

What exactly do you mean by "conversion" ? Replacing the main with a El motor and Gennies should be no task. Are there any pictures?
And I doubt the data given! 300 tonnes? Seems to be a 50 meter fishing boat with a draught of 3,50m, almost ten meters wide? Twice that sounds lightweight! And how does such boat do 20kn with some shabby 1500 hp??

Regards
Richard

[WestVanHan]

Those measurement sound suspiciously like an older CRN I spent time on.
Or many similar Med cruising vessels.

It took 3800 hp to push it to a 14 knot top speed....

[apex1]

Those measurement sound suspiciously like an older CRN I spent time on.
Or many similar Med cruising vessels.
It took 3800 hp to push it to a 14 knot top speed....

Yeah, possibly a old Italian yacht, but unlikely. These slow revving engines on a yacht? I have´nt seen that.

[WestVanHan]

I have been on many of vessels such as this,and have seen quite a few 30/45 MAN engines which are rated @ 400 rpm.

As well as a few other brands.

[apex1]

Hmm, that I have´nt seen them does not mean too much I just noticed. I did not see many engine rooms on 50m boats. But maybe we get informed by Barron which sort of boat we are talking.
Anyway the data given seems to be wrong. This one (same LOA and width) had twice the power, less draught, 600 tonnes and did 17 kn with both "levers on the table".

[WestVanHan]

Of course the big/ low rpm engines are on the older steel vessels...

A relative works in the yacht industry,when I visit him in Europe he takes me along as an assistant.

I've been on about 40 large yachts.

[apex1]

I was on more, but yachtowners invite other yachtowners not for visiting engine rooms, so there have been just occasional visits on some trips. And I did not have these slow revving big engines, as most of the yachts from the 70ies on.
Richard

[Barron]

OK I am back. The boat is in fact an old fishing trawler and after getting the data sheet I found that the dimensions are

LOA 150
Beam 29
Draft 12
@ 307 tons

Current engine 1560 hp @ 500 - 600 rpm
Cruise @ 15knots

Yes I am speaking of converting to a hybrid system ( Diesel / Electric ) I have been doing research on the matter and I am not finding much available for this particular size boat.


Barron

[apex1]

Of course a D/E conversion is possible, the question remains WHY? There seems to be little sense in it.

And the data remains wrong. That boat has neither 300 tonnes nor does it 15kn cruising! I doubt 15kn max.

Richard

[baeckmo]

First, I doubt that this vessel would cruise @ 15 knots; if pushed to max, with following wind, a hungry and home-sick crew and a down hill, it might be its top speed.

Secondly, why the h... a hybrid system? Do you really have that kind of hotel load in mind? With losses in generator, propulsion motor, control system and conductors, your factual transmission efficiency at the optimum operating point will be ~80 %, at most other loads even lower.

The vessel probably is running direct drive as built, meaning a trsm efficiency = 100 %. What trade-off is worth 20 % of increased losses and a doubled installation cost???

You found no referrences to hybrid arrangements for this kind of vessel...guess why!!!


Ooops, Apex, same second....., same reflexions......

[Barron]

Your input is appreciated, However

First, I doubt that this vessel would cruise @ 15 knots; if pushed to max, with following wind, a hungry and home-sick crew and a down hill, it might be its top speed.

Unfortunately sir the cruise speed had been confirmed by the captain of this vessel..........................

Secondly, why the h... a hybrid system? Do you really have that kind of hotel load in mind? With losses in generator, propulsion motor, control system and conductors, your factual transmission efficiency at the optimum operating point will be ~80 %, at most other loads even lower.

Secondly, why not a hybrid system ? Are you versed in electric drive sir ?



The vessel probably is running direct drive as built, meaning a trsm efficiency = 100 %. What trade-off is worth 20 % of increased losses and a doubled installation cost???

The vessel does not have a direct drive, it has a geared reduction.



You found no referrences to hybrid arrangements for this kind of vessel...guess why!!!

As I have been told is these things are currently being built with off the shelf components. I had a conversation with a gentleman working with electric drive systems from Siemens. And quite frankly sir, If you cannot be helpful sir please ignore my posts.

[apex1]

Your input is appreciated, However
Unfortunately sir the cruise speed had been confirmed by the captain of this vessel..........................

And I still doubt it! As I still doubt the displacement (both is just nearly impossible)

Secondly, why not a hybrid system ? Are you versed in electric drive sir ?

I would say Baeckmo is! So am I! And we do´nt see a sense (apart from the point stated, Hotel load)

The vessel does not have a direct drive, it has a geared reduction.

Than it has still a 97% or so efficiency.


As I have been told is these things are currently being built with off the shelf components. I had a conversation with a gentleman working with electric drive systems from Siemens. And quite frankly sir, If you cannot be helpful sir please ignore my posts.

These things are built since 80 years with off the shelf components, that does´nt mean they fit every purpose. In fact there are very few cases a D/E propulsion makes any sense. Icebreakers are one Cruiseships another, and then there is not much left...................

But you would make it easier for all of us when you tell us WHY? As I asked above.

Regards
Richard

[Barron]

Richard,


In the consideration of converting this boat to a private boat the "Why" as you put it comes to me in the form of these simple answers

Low Noise Level
Reduced Emissions
Better Fuel Economy
Fewer mechanical components

Also as I am told from the people at Siemens, the boat would be able to turn a bigger prop with a different pitch. Optimizing the torque from the electric motor(s) for the weight of the vessel.




Thanks

[apex1]

Richard,
In the consideration of converting this boat to a private boat the "Why" as you put it comes to me in the form of these simple answers

Low Noise Level
Reduced Emissions
Better Fuel Economy
Fewer mechanical components

Also as I am told from the people at Siemens, the boat would be able to turn a bigger prop with a different pitch. Optimizing the torque from the electric motor(s) for the weight of the vessel.
Thanks

Well, lets see what remains left when going through the list.
Lower noise level: yes can be achieved with good sound shielding on the gennies. But can be done cheaper with a state of the art setup of the existing system components (though maybe not to very last decibel).
Reduced emissions: the opposite is true! With less efficiency, you have higher emissions for the same output (not to forget the large environmental footprint for the regularely new installed gensets, they do´nt last long).
Better fuel economy: no, the opposite is true! You hardly beat one of these old displacement monsters in efficiency, and a genset running at partial load (and they will do that often) is not a good solution.
Fewer mechanical components: are you joking? You have more than twice of them!
A bigger prop is hardly possible! Those boats turn always the biggest prop possible already.

Not much left!?!

Before you plan to invest some 400.000€ in such a new propulsion (and I doubt you´ll find it for less), you could better refurbish the existing engine and add a CPP! That might end up at half of the figure and you would have the best efficiency possible for such vessel, combined with a very smooth (and quiet) ride at cruising speeds.
Still speeds below 15kn believe me.

Regards
Richard

[Barron]

I guess you set me straight. HA, Thanks for your input

[baeckmo]

Yes, I have some experience with diesel-electric and gasturbine-electric power transmission in the one- to ten MW range from the power industry. And my questions are relevant, since you have altered the technical information along the trip; as Apex noted, some specs are still dubious. If you want qualified help, you must be prepared to supply reliable and realistic info and not get upset when asked!

Propulsion systems cannot be selected on the basis of "I fancy this or that technology". You have to make a decent assessment of the vessel's duty cycle over an operational season (in a commercial environment: over the life span of the equipment). If you find that you are spending the majority of running hours manoeuvering and loitering at low speed, with some high thrust tugging, plus short bursts of top speed, at the same time as your guests are consuming 700 plus kW of electricity, then you might check a hybrid system. But before that, check your bank account, and be carefully seated..... .

For the rest...just lean onto Apex1, he showed you the light, I hope (and apply some scepsis to salesmen's talking).

[Barron]

I am happy you have this experience and I do believe your your questions to be relevant. However none of the technical information as you call it has been altered, it came directly from the blueprint sir. Lastly I am not was not upset, takes much much more than a few people and their interesting way of explaining things, but perhaps you guys could work a little bit on your approach when someone is asking for help or a question ? Just my thought on how to talk with people.

[apex1]

Hmm,
cannot see where we have to change our behaviour!? Who was unpolite and when?
Richard

[Barron]

I don't have time to go through the process again, but all I was doing was asking if these systems were available and you guys acted like I had "said" something wrong in my question. However its neither here nor there at this point. Also I appreciate your concern with my bank account but its very healthy thank you. Now that my simple question has been answered I will go away.

[apex1]

I don't have time to go through the process again, but all I was doing was asking if these systems were available and you guys acted like I had "said" something wrong in my question. However its neither here nor there at this point. Also I appreciate your concern with my bank account but its very healthy thank you. Now that my simple question has been answered I will go away.

Well, to bring it to the point, we have had our doubts about the data given (and still have), these figures I assume have´nt been "yours" so why are you upset?
And you know why I had concerns about your account? The wealthy amongst us are not at least wealthy due to being very keen in efficient propulsion for their toys. And I thought you might be as well.

Richard

[apex1]

I don't have time to go through the process again, but all I was doing was asking if these systems were available and you guys acted like I had "said" something wrong in my question. However its neither here nor there at this point. Also I appreciate your concern with my bank account but its very healthy thank you. Now that my simple question has been answered I will go away.

Well, to bring it to the point, we have had our doubts about the data given (and still have), these figures I assume have´nt been "yours" so why are you upset?
And you know why I had concerns about your account? The wealthy amongst us are not at least wealthy due to being very keen in efficient propulsion for their toys. And I thought you might be as well.

Richard

[Barron]

Understood regarding the data and it was incorrect Like I said, I am not upset and with that out of the way, I was simply asking if this was available for boats of this size not that I wanted to put it on my boats. But like I said I honestly appreciate the input you 2 gentlemen have offered me. It tells me alot about the subject and yourselves.

Thank You

[kistinie]

OSSAPOWERLITE (http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/motors/motors.htm) Is going up to 800Kw with 98% efficency for the motor itself

Voith turbo (http://www.voithturbo.com/vt_en_pua_marine_air_inline-thruster.htm) in germany do it too with nice pancake motors, carbone VP blades


APEX1 loves 20 century's world :-) , but sorry, this is the one we are in :

http://www.ill.eu/nc/top-links/news/news-single-view/article/2/magnetic-monopoles-70-years-from-prediction-to-observation/
This just means that the Maxwell equation on magnetism are false, so ...the way we make electric motors and controllers.
A lot of changes are coming for E. Motors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_machine
This is one more over-unitary effect of mater.
The question of energy source is also going to be very different from what the most of us beleive today.


The more you get educated about the real state of art of today's quantum physics, the sooner new products will come because you will be abble to ask for them and let the 20th century to the past.

Good search !

Apex, please, can you give me -10 more "rep" for this answer ?
Regards

[mark775]

And Siemens did some Washington ferry/dock-crashers and some Taiwan trawler/yachts. The beginning of the joke at the Taiwan yard was "How many German engineers does it take to carry enough extension cord to keep these things running?"
Let's just say there might be some bugs yet to be worked out... The Ossa Powerlight is kinda cool but the efficiency numbers just don't get there. I bought into their forward-looking statements and even went so far as to inquire to buy. The motor didn't actually exist! The costs were astronomical for what they did have and the proclaimed efficiency was with weighted-in-their-favor parameters.
The Voith thing doesn't apply and cannot compete on efficiency. The academic monopole studies have nothing to do with this - I believe what you may be interested in is a Halbach array.
36759

The Z-machine has nothing to do with this.
Why do you portend to know anything about Maxwell? Because you read something that indicated under certain circumstances, in a laboratory, rules may be bent?

[kistinie]

The Z-machine has nothing to do with this.
Why do you portend to know anything about Maxwell? Because you read something that indicated under certain circumstances, in a laboratory, rules may be bent?

Most of our classic science formulas are partially false, unless you introduce a quantum behaviour. Nothing to bend, it is already bent...like a vortex !

Maxwell equation is one major basis of actual electric motors.
Maxwell is prooved to be false unless you use quantum electron behaviour.
This is one more proof that alternative electric motors are possible.

MHD (Z machine) gave one more proof that the access to the zero point energy is possible.
(i love this one especially because it is an 'accidental information' coming from military research for pure fusion bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_fusion_weapon))

[apex1]

The lunatic is back!.................

Was a pleasure to follow your request Kristine.:cool:

[kistinie]

The lunatic is back!.................


Lunatic ? You mean constant i guess.
But once again, i am not the subject. Hybrid is.

Generators and motors, unless they are PM and advanced designed will be average electric conversion.

Electric motors/generators have to become much smarter to be a good solution for any kind of transport.

Until this moment, PMBL motors and generators are already available and give a good alternative for light sailing boats like multihulls and racer.

On the next VENDEE GLOBE race, you will count with one hand boats with ICE aboard. No ice geny, no ice propulsion, all electric.

PS: Thanks for the -31 Rep !
Next target - 100 !

[CDK]

-31 Rep. points means that your presence on this forum is not appreciated by the majority of forum members.
Why don't you shift your attention to a more friendly environment, where your in-depth scientific knowledge will be greeted with enthusiasm, like startrek.conforums.com/

[M-Sasha]

A sound advise CDK!

Sasha

[kistinie]

-31 Rep. points means that your presence on this forum is not appreciated by the majority of forum members.
Why don't you shift your attention to a more friendly environment, where your in-depth scientific knowledge will be greeted with enthusiasm, like startrek.conforums.com/


Dear Sir,

boatdesign is a boat forum

Talk less of me, more of boat, more of technical facts to contest the elements you may disagree with.

I' sure ...you can :D

[masalai]

kistinie,
Your persistent quest for the perpetual engine is in the realms of fantasy land, not boat design forum where conservative thinking is applied in the context of proven reliability and durability... Your quest to derive 10hp from a metaphorical fart delivered by a cow in a paddock a mile away is not a topic relevant to this forum except in http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/grumpy-old-bathplug-raves-21157-84.html#post312484 , http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/boat-jokes-we-need-few-laughs-14472-205.html#post312525 or some self started thread in the open forum (dungeon region of this website)... There you may get lucky and find a 'frustrated mad genius', who has developed something that reaches toward your impossible dream... Good luck... :D:o:D:?::D:!::D

[mark775]

Too much red mercury, perhaps?

[masalai]

:?: I thought it was "white" mercuric oxide that destroyed aluminium very quickly?

[kistinie]

kistinie,
Your persistent quest for the perpetual engine is in the realms of fantasy land, not boat design forum where conservative thinking is applied in the context of proven reliability and durability... Your quest to derive 10hp from a metaphorical fart delivered by a cow in a paddock a mile away is not a topic relevant to this forum except in http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/grumpy-old-bathplug-raves-21157-84.html#post312484 , http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/boat-jokes-we-need-few-laughs-14472-205.html#post312525 or some self started thread in the open forum (dungeon region of this website)... There you may get lucky and find a 'frustrated mad genius', who has developed something that reaches toward your impossible dream... Good luck... :D:o:D:?::D:!::D

Did i ever spoke on time of perpetual engine ?
No.

Is there proven reliability and durability in an electric engine ?
Yes.

10 Hp from a cow ?
Sorry i do not understand the image.


'frustrated mad genius'
Is it the way you see the others you do not understand ? Whaao !


Constructive thinking, as you say, is to drastically raise motors, charging, and storage efficiency.
PMBL motors, the finest today's tech, is lying on partially false equations.
This means these motors can certainly be improved a lot.


An example with this French hydrogenerator :

WATT AND SEA (http://www.wattandsea.com/hydrogenerateur.php)

Variable pitch on race version - Fix for consumer model
7 kilos, very low drag, 1000W nominal, limited to 500W by electronic
Drag on a 60 feet racer = Drag of additional 300 litres of diesel aboard so approx 0.1 Knt
Inside is a
LEROY SOMER electric motor based on a quantum, Maxwell equations, approach i guess.
As you can see, from your PC fan to the race hydrogenerator, efficiency increase of all new electromagnetic BL motors is a fact.
Development key for new modern electric motors is quantum physic.


And the song is the same for chargers and batteries

[baeckmo]

......This means these motors can certainly be improved a lot.

Fine, so get it done now. Gimme a call when you're finished. Until then, stand by in the shadows under your stone!

[kistinie]

.....stand by in the shadows under your stone!


Is it your winter sweeden strategy against cold and dark ?
Bravo ! One more useful contribution to the subject

[apex1]

You do´nt get it, Hybrid Crossair ?

Y O U A R E N O T W E L C O M E H E R E ! ! ! !

[kistinie]

You do´nt get it, Hybrid Crossair ?

Y O U A R E N O T W E L C O M E H E R E ! ! ! !

Zeig Heil ! Bastards away ?
Did i get it right ?

Apex, congratulation ! you raise the level !
One more useful contribution

[masalai]

If you cannot "handle" tongue in cheek and persist with dreaming an impossible dream, DO IT and document it here - - When you have it complete and reliably working..., Until then accept advice and stfu for a while... :!::!::D:D:P:P:o

[WestVanHan]

There used to be a guy Fast Electric Yachts (feys.org) using asynchronous AC Siemens traction motors/gens.

Sounded great,everything was industrial,but the liquid cooled controllers with many circuit boards etc made me wonder if I'd be DITW when a microscopic transistor failed.

With the $100k price tag (installation extra) even if the 30% claimed fuel savings were true (which i doubt) I'd have had to circumnavigate twice to break even.

So I bought 2 brand new Cummins 6BTs (with transmissions) for $6500 each.

If one has monstrous house loads,maybe.But my Kubota gen set used half a litre an hour.

[Frosty]

I used to work with French,--- it was the most difficult part of the job. Some kind of Kinder garden training would have helped.

And they talk funny too.

[masalai]

French? Huh?

[kistinie]

If you cannot "handle" tongue in cheek and persist with dreaming an impossible dream, DO IT and document it here - - When you have it complete and reliably working..., Until then accept advice and stfu for a while... :!::!::D:D:P:P:o

I am working on it.
The phase one of my project is based on Lead batteries for mainly cost reason but not only, PMBL motor and generator, as well as on aboard electricity need reduction by canceling non compulsory item that can be replaced by manual equipments, like anchor winch or semi mechanical like autopilot connected to a windvane to lower amps needed. Wasted heat that cannot be avoided is re-used for another need.

95% of energy electric devices sold today for marine use are obsolete technology and i do not find this acceptable.

Just take simple example of lead batteries.
Try to find a boat battery charger, solar, alternator or dock, equipped with pulsed desulfating function. Answer is close to nothing also since 1940 we know it can triple battery life and increase initial capacity on new batteries (Submarine nazi technology made with coils and mechanical oscillator)

For many years, my truck, my sailing boat, my 2 antic cars and my summer house not connected to network, are using batteries i get at the waste reception center for 3€/Ton

Does this talk enough to you ?
To me it does.

So to sump up how i see electric propulsion :
Simplification (less parts)
Improved magnetic design of motors/generators
Co generation
Lightness
Increase efficiency of all other loads

There used to be a guy Fast Electric Yachts (feys.org) using asynchronous AC Siemens traction motors/gens.

Sounded great,everything was industrial,but the liquid cooled controllers with many circuit boards etc made me wonder if I'd be DITW when a microscopic transistor failed.

With the $100k price tag (installation extra) even if the 30% claimed fuel savings were true (which i doubt) I'd have had to circumnavigate twice to break even.

So I bought 2 brand new Cummins 6BTs (with transmissions) for $6500 each.

If one has monstrous house loads,maybe.But my Kubota gen set used half a litre an hour.

With current available technology, electric motors are only realistic on LIGHT SAILING BOAT or ultra light day boats.
Is it the case of you example ?

Now about the microscopic transistor failing let me smile about it.
Last month a friend gave me for the day to go fishing his 20' White shark boat equipped with a nice like new (6 month) 300HP VERADO...
Computer said 4500 Rpm, 95 liters/hour and GPS 17 Knts...
Mariner is still looking for the problem
Nasty transistors !

Be honest 95% of ICE are based on electronic controllers, so this drawback of electronic reliability is general for both, electric and thermal motors but with one big difference. On an electric engine, only ONE controller is enough and with Sensor-less controllers even brittle piezzo position captors are avoided.
How many captors and controllers on a 300HP Verado ?

I used to work with French,--- it was the most difficult part of the job. Some kind of Kinder garden training would have helped.

And they talk funny too.

I'm sure that the day you will talk french, it will be very funny too :)

[masalai]

The KEY issue remains, making the electricity with a super lightweight device (genset) and effectively storing it (BMS and battery)...

Torqeedo is about the most reliable electric motor system at present... I have not found better for my needs yet...

If you demand diesel or some other veg-oil as fuel, the WEIGHT factor is not good, (I recall going through all this once before but repeating will not hurt), 6000 Watts at 60V dc (peak) will have a mass of around 110~125KG (diesel engine and alternators) OR MORE...

Basic BMS for lead acid system batteries is about 2KG (and that includes AGM and spiral wound heavy duty batteries) - - Batteries sufficient for 1 hour 40% discharge driving 2 Torqeedo R4.0 'outboard motors' - some 480kg less if you are content to use 4000 to 5000 Watts or less direct driving your motors from the genset... (about 2000 W each or one at near full power... I am still using a 22hp diesel engine (in my case a 722cc Kubota 3 cyl engine... generally reliable, minimal "hi-tech" electronics in this system...

I am not interested in discussing autopilot or other electronic navigational aids except to suggest that wind-vane is not appropriate on a high speed (relative to a cruising mono) cat or trimaran - When you cruise you will become aware of the wind-vane steering disadvantages...

Seek out off the shelf stuff (not necessarily marine specialised products) that will adapt and retain dependability and reliability... When cruising there is no second chance when an untimely and nasty weather event arises to fuck up your comfortable lifestyle...

The reason for nothing much new since 1940 is most cruising yacht owners prefer dependable reliability... It is the marina jockeys that have the hi-tech stuff that lasts a couple of hours (up to the maximum fuel range anyway)... or can afford triple redundancy...

[kistinie]

Full aluminium diesel 7 Kw = 35 Kg - 500$ from Asia, much more everywhere else, matter of taste
Generator/motor PMBL + controller 6Kw = 20 Kg - 1000$
Belt Pulley anc. = 10 Kg - 100$ to 400$

65Kg for 6Kw is possible today from 1600$, air cooled being the cheapest and the most reliable.
Price can go up with a Gillier Pantone like water injection, but fuel saving will pay for the over cost, with the benefit of lower emissions.



This 2.8KW/30Kg Hyunday invertor is based on a 144cc/3.8hp@5500rpm engine but is 220 or 110VAC so straight battery connection is impossible

So Sadly, for the moment home made is the only possible choice a modern generator at a standard consumer price.

This fact is incredibly chocking me as generator are for areas where electricity is missing so where you are likely to have batteries.
Incorporating a direct lead battery connection for 48V applications would rocket the sale of such items . Boats, houses, light vehicles
48V (56 charging) /50 Amp electronic is a 350$ PMBL controller working in regeneration mode instead of the 220ac invertor


About wind vane i use to have the opinion you currently have, but looking closer at the question, even for a over 15Knt cruising trimaran, it can work much better than expected. But this is another subject.

[Kay9]

Um, if you use an air cooled motor at sea you can set the life expectancy at 1 hour to 2 months.

1 hour if a wave washes on deck into the motor, 1 month if it dosnt.

Air cooled belt drive is NOT the MOST reliable. It is IN FACT the MOST UNRELIABLE way to produce generated electricity.

Keel intercooled direct coupled is by far more reliable. Espically when placed in a dry engine compartment.

Also I think your chinese diesel engine prices are off a bit. No way your getting a 7 KW diesel engine for $500. You might be getting the 1.5 KW for that price.

K9

[CDK]

Um, if you use an air cooled motor at sea you can set the life expectancy at 1 hour to 2 months.

1 hour if a wave washes on deck into the motor, 1 month if it dosnt.

Air cooled belt drive is NOT the MOST reliable. It is IN FACT the MOST UNRELIABLE way to produce generated electricity.

Keel intercooled direct coupled is by far more reliable. Espically when placed in a dry engine compartment.

Also I think your chinese diesel engine prices are off a bit. No way your getting a 7 KW diesel engine for $500. You might be getting the 1.5 KW for that price.

K9

I really hate to admit this, but a few years ago I bought a 7 KW chinese replica of a Yanmar for approx. $400 on Ebay. There even was a firefighter's water pump attached to it. It still serves as an emergency power generator in my back yard.

[kistinie]

Cast iron air cooled diesel next to my boat is 45 years old, fishing each year, 6 months a year.
You really think that an aluminium casting will change that much life expextancy ? I don't
Now it would be cool when new, to take of each bolt off and replace covered with coper grease to avoid electrolyse as well as a perfect grounding and vermish all that can be protected

Belt is given for at least 1000 of hours, but i agree, getting rid of it is better.

Here in France i find 7KW diesels groups for 900$ so i guess that under that price you should get the aluminium engine only.

Please do not forget that on a light sailing boat, the use of the group will be minimum, so a petrol engine could be more than enough if finding a correct priced diesel is too difficult.

[Kay9]

Perhaps its diffrent in France, but in the US when we say "motor" we are talking of the electric variety, and when we say engine we are talking the gas or diesel powered type.

On an air cooled gas or diesel engine with a belt powering the electric wire wound motor to produce electricity, your going to have huge corrosion problems on the electric motor winding. Thus your life expectancy on your $1000 motor is going to be 1 month to 1 day. My opinion.

K9

[kistinie]

sorry for confusion, in french this is the same word motor for both : Moteur

What could be the technical reason of this very fast corrosion ?

[mark775]

Leave it to the French - A baguette!!!

Crumbs! Baguette Leads To Scientific Setback


The massive machine at the centre of the world's biggest scientific experiment has malfunctioned again – derailed by a bit of bread.
The Hadron Collider, buried 100m under the ground near Geneva, Switzerland, is supposed to recreate conditions seen after the Big Bang.
It is hoped the £4.4bn machine will shed light on the event that many scientists believe gave birth to the universe around 14 billion years ago, but the project has suffered a series of setbacks.

The latest saw a "bit of baguette" fall onto machinery, causing a fault.
Sections of the machine, which fires protons round a 17-mile-long tunnel at close to the speed of light in order to smash them into each other, then overheated.
Members of the public who had been looking at data published online noticed the temperature changes and contacted journalists at The Register.
They alerted those in charge of the project at the European Organisation for Nuclear Research (Cern).
Is the machine self-sabotaging? In all seriousness, that the machine is sabotaging itself - from the future.
The theory is that the particle that physicists hope to produce might be "abhorrent to nature", so that once created it would work backwards through time to put a stop to whatever created it. We are getting into Kistinie territory here. Now, mechanical devices are conspiring...

[masalai]

Hey Kistinie, at least post some photographs/images of your creation in operation... and web links to the products mentioned...

[wardd]

during ww2 in the us aircraft industry the terms engine and motor were defined by the way the fuel left the device, if it left the same as it arived that was a motor, ie air hydrolic electric, engines converted their fuel usually in a combustion process

[apex1]

Kristine,
I´m sure you would benefit from merging your activities with our other scientists here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/designing-plastic-bottle-island-floating-platform-30051.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/concrete-submarine-24361-32.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/my-impossible-mission-29565.html

unbelievable innovative (as your ideas), thoroughly engineered, environmental friendly, and always a joy to read about!

But take care they experiment with such stuff as Dihydrogen - monoxide, and Hydroxyl - acid.

Give it a shot, it might change your life.

And when purchasing a chinese Diesel (yes there are some cheap, even 30hp is well below 1000$), make sure the only electronic device is a governor with a WROM = (write only memory), all others will fail soon.

Really

[WestVanHan]

There's a time and place for everything.

A $200 air cooled Chinese diesel (if u buy from manufacturer) to supply your needs on a boat is a false economy.

They're great for occasional non essential use.

Spend the money and get a Kubota EA .
Mine has 3000 hours on it.
My brother has one pumping water on his farm,it's at 13,000 hours.

Not a single problem with either

[kistinie]

Leave it to the French - A baguette!!!

Crumbs! Baguette Leads To Scientific Setback
.....
The theory is that the particle that physicists hope to produce might be "abhorrent to nature", so that once created it would work backwards through time to put a stop to whatever created it. We are getting into Kistinie territory here. Now, mechanical devices are conspiring...

For the baguette, i'm not guilty i was 400 miles from Genova
For the time distortion, it is a true possibility ...among many others much more incredible (http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_11.htm) and very funny facts (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x3966), we cannot really explain today, unless we rewrite our official history.



And when purchasing a chinese Diesel (yes there are some cheap, even 30hp is well below 1000$), make sure the only electronic device is a governor with a WROM = (write only memory), all others will fail soon.

Really

Strong magnetic fields from PM motors turning high speed is not doing a good cohabitation with computers, that is true.
I totally agree with this

Hey Kistinie, at least post some photographs/images of your creation in operation... and web links to the products mentioned...

You already had the "watt and sea" (http://www.wattandsea.com/) and "eole water" (http://www.eolewater.com/) link to have an idea what i'm doing as the technical solution used here is in the same spirit of my project.

For the rest you will have to wait, Hulls repair got longer and more expensive than budgeted so the energy part of the project is only really starting now.

[apex1]

Hulls repair got longer and more expensive than budgeted so the energy part of the project is only really starting now.

Ja ja, since two years now!

A loong start.......:P


And have you seen a WROM by now?

[kistinie]

True ! It is a real problem, when you are on holidays all year, you do not care enough about time.
I will try to hurry more for the energy side.

By example, SD SanDisk Worm are 128M°, but i do not have the price yet.
Now, as long as it is a prototype a pic will be enough.
By the way, new engine calculators are not all wrom.
Do you really think it is a major cause of problem ?
I rather see here the dead captors dance on new outboard !

[apex1]

WROM = (write only memory)


ahhja
life is hard

[masalai]

Errr, I beg to offer a different response
ROM is Read Only MEMORY, WROM is ROM that can be re-written in certain cases, Write-able Read Only Memory = WROM
EEPROM is Erasable-or-Electronically Programable Read Only Memory (similar effect) which usually has electronic circuits that facilitate re-writing the "permanent" data (programs) usually contained therein (like when your digital camera gets a bug fix of an operating update)... Some of the earlier chips needed UV exposure to erase the content and allow a re-write...

[CDK]

No Masalai, you are on the wrong track.
Some people write such a bloody nonsense that nobody should ever read again, they really need a WROM. I think that's what Richard meant.

[masalai]

OK, I accept your advice with grace...

[apex1]

No Masalai, you are on the wrong track.
Some people write such a bloody nonsense that nobody should ever read again, they really need a WROM. I think that's what Richard meant.

207 points Cornelis!

Of course a WROM does not exist. For what (except the use you mention) could it be good?:cool:

And obviously nobody noticed that I was referring to: >>>>Dihydrogen - monoxide, and Hydroxyl - acid.<<<<
in the same post!:?:

You sometimes drink that bloody stuff! Even in high concentrations, jaahh......

[baeckmo]

WROM = (write only memory)


ahhja
life is hard

Yepp, would be much easier to cope with life if moderator used the WROM-link to reroute some of the bullpoo straight down to the black hole and poured some dihydromonoxide on top....... Great idea; write only, gone forever!

[masalai]

Ahhhhh, did I get suckered:!: - What a mouth I am sometimes? - a WOAMOWROT; an old and not often used ?Dutch? word meaning - - Write Once And Move On Without Reading Or Thinking....:D:D:D

[kistinie]

WROM: is Just a basic
"Empty-off-topic" style,troll attack
Thread's SABOTAGE !!!!!
Energy vampires
Time eater
Parasite
Pollution
...

I feel better.

[masalai]

I thought that was ETETPP:?:

[kistinie]

Read again our trolls' post on all hybrid topics
Action is always the same : Destruction
You have noticed, i guess, that our Trolls are very skilled engineers.
In spite of this deep knowledge...a recurrent superficial systematic opposition to electric powering of boats, water injection to I.C.E, or quantum's physics today's applications, is expressed using non accurate or absurd facts, covered with a global "look down" patronizing texture.


A troll will never get deep in the subject he decides to troll.
A troll is only here to make you loose time, energy, keep you on the surface of problem.
Discussion with Trolls is most of the time sterile.




hybrid electric vehicles is a nowadays pertinent technology solution as it positively answers the question of getting to lower energy need and better efficiency using existing tools and products.
All bricks are available : Motors PMBL, controllers, batteries, efficient, light, simple ICE
But sadly these products are not designed to be assembled all together.
The actual vacuum of consumer "ICE/Electric hybrid" solutions packages or just coherent bricks like the rather compulsory genset for direct battery connection, is a real, marketing mystery as deep, as our trolls motivations :-))
Actual industrial production is at least anarchic, more realistically manipulated.




To answer this problematic situation we are in, do our own solutions.

- Layer one : Free Open Democratic World Collaborative Research. We share all knowledge as a not patentable positive richness accessible to all that can. Layer one is a true and real. LINUX is a bullet proof clue it is possible, realistic.
- Layer Two : We manufacture and sale, as much as possible, where we are for evident T.O.C and stability reasons by using layer one common knowledge. Layer two is on the way with the great step done for Cellular phone charger normalisation.

Again ; global thinking + local independent acting = Peace and efficiency



Trolls job is to prevent this equation to be :

- Layer one: Trolling forums, trolling scientific GOV institutions, Troll your right to have an idea already expressed by another with the patent concept, Trolling the ISO normalisations to prevent dangerous to profit interoperability, Trolling your life paying as much as necessary for your soul.
- Layer two: Troll all business into very high income, short life products, troll access to sensible products and matter, Troll the access to funds.




When have enough knowledge to design and manufacture industrially reproducible prototypes that fit most common needs.

- Universal Controllers for battery connection to any group of motors or power source of its class.
- Universal geneset giving a mechanical and electrical output in a standardized I/O position box format.
- Universal open controll software standard


To use the technology, boats, car, houses, are free of all other choices, only the I/O to universal bricks must be respected.
Then your today's life become.....Your geneset is broken, no problem this other brand available next door is interoperable.
you raise the available product choice as any smart builder can offer alternative design and still stay connectible by normalisation respect.


Global thinking bring exponential increase to creation, local acting, the adaptation skills to local specificities.

[masalai]

kistinie,
Easy on the paranoia - we have our own experts on that, and need not of extra expertise in that field....

If you do not like your reception, then is it not probable that your welcome has worn a little thin, - or, - your "trolls" need entertaining so play their game, why not? - - - but as a serious topic for scientific analysis/discourse the session has either ended or moved to another forum.... As I have heard others submit "...go in peace my child..." but not necessarily from this forum has such been said - implied? possibly...

[kistinie]

Troll are necessary...yes in a way, without them life would be boring, much too simple !

Paranoia ?
Sure!
Industry cares about us with respect, love and understanding...just like finance world and medical labs.
They love us like tigers love fresh meat
When we get a gift for flu, a squaleme and mercury bonus is offered !
True respect indeed


So the question remains asked to us:
Wait for donuts to fall from the market sky or spread the compulsory normalization principle initiated by the cell phone charger normalization example?

[apex1]

Maybe but actual situation i paint is real.
The question remains to us:

Nothing you said on this Forum was ever real, baby. Only dreams and phantasy. But you do´nt get it ever, hopeless.

Read again our trolls' post on all hybrid topics
Action is always the same : Destruction
You have noticed, i guess, that our Trolls are very skilled engineers.
Trolls job is to prevent this equation to be :

You think all are trolls.
The one who builts almost everything on his boat himself, a electronics engineer.
The other who makes more boats a year, than you have been on board.
The next, who builds exactly what you are dreaming about, but not to your outer space standards, of course.
The boat designers, boatbuilders, Naval Architects, contradicting your nonsense.

All Trolls...................

The only clever babe around is our little Kristine.....
Go, make your kitchen chores. Let the adults play with the difficult questions.

[kistinie]

Nothing you said on this Forum was ever real, baby. Only dreams and phantasy. But you do´nt get it ever, hopeless...You think all are trolls....The only clever babe around is our little Kristine.....
Go, make your kitchen chores. Let the adults play with the difficult questions.

Your talk is troll song, extreme banality about my total incapacity, boat builders, adults, clever versus stupid...
A big salad of commun ideas
Useless "Café du commerce" talk !

Come back to the sea level please :-) and please explain us your position about important aspects like normalisation.

NORMALISATION of product is compulsory to lower cost and energy footprint.
Cell phone example is a major event to follow

This normalisation aspect doesn't attract your attention ?
Is this normalisation aspect taken in account by the HYMAR's project (2M€ funded by Europe) managers ? Can a HYMAR member answer this ?

This is a very important question.

[fcfc]

What do boat rental think of hybrid systems :

http://www.bareboatsbvi.com/catamaran_lagoon420.html

And even, the catamaran was the best case to go hybrid : big electrical load, and they could remove two propulsion engine only at the price of a larger genset.

[kistinie]

This example would need more technical details like, Weight, trawler use instead of sailing boat use... to understand better causes, for the moment it is just a case among many others.



But if you do not mind i 'd like to have at least one answer about normalisation for electric generation products coming.
No one cares about it ?

If we do not care we will have the automotive situation with 1000 different incompatible references for each equivalent and nearly identical part.

1000 engine mounting size
1000 uncompatible voltages
1000 communication protocole
1000 different way to screw the propeller on shaft
1000 control display cut size
.....

In this case, guess who will loose ?
All of us.


At least 90% of technical parts could be interchangable for same class size cars.
Reallity is ...just a few.
How to justify 100 different thermostat incompatible for [88°c / 2" diameter] ? class
How to justify the same engine block gets minor useless modifications that prevents from a compatible use with it's brothers cars

The bad experience of automotive mess we are in will happend again with hybrid solutions.

This situation is above KAFKA's worst nightmare
And everybody feels confortable with this ?

You want to have this again for the future for the hybrid generation ?
So Easy !!!
Do nothing and trust the trolls ! We will have it !


WAKE UP !


One reaction please !

Normalization is used for helping us waste less.
Do not be afraid

You are not becoming communist ...i guess ;-) when you accept the idea that interoperability must be increased between manufacturers. The normalization deal is a win-win deal as all the system gets the benefits of wasting less.

Till this hypothetical event ;-)), i suggest to do the work ourselves, now.

Just imagine the power of a shared "linux like" world research and development, connected to local manufacturing.
I bet that so many people like me are so unsatisfied with the industrial offer that we could be a lot motivated by the project.
This will also allows us to choose our manufacturers and decide of the qualities we ask, the product and the production line.

It is definitively time for a different organization of creation and production