Seeking info on Tri-Star or Piver trimaran 23 to 27 Feet

[LucD]

Hello!

Someone mention trimaran from Tri-Star:
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/index.html
They also mention Piver trimaran (very little info available)

They look well design and I might build one if it's worth it.
I was wondering how they perform, speed, balance, design etc..?
If you are a owner or had one of these, please post some info.

Thank you

[catsketcher]

Gday

I am a trimaranophile. I love the things. I got my first - a Piver Nugget 24ft - when I was 16. I used to bang around Sydney and close waters in it until I got a Twiggy - a 31ft racing tri in which I went cruising for two years. I jumped on every tri I could and built a 38ft foam Newick 10 years ago.

Cruising the Twiggy I started drawing the next boat. It was going to be an updated Searunner 40 (a boat I really like) I drew and fiddled and talked, learnt, and worked for one of Australia's best builders - Shawn Arber.

"How do I design a cruising tri?" I would ask him and he would shake his head
"You'd be a fool to build a tri nowadays - more hassle, less room and less resale than a cat. Build a cat"
"But tris are much nicer boats. I want a tri" I would reply

I kept on drawing my strip planked tri for another year and then one night I thought. What would a cat I like look like? I sketched up a cat with an arrangement that gave us twice as much room, much more privacy, more resale and was easier to build. I had been stubborn for years and all it took was a quick sketch.

Tris like the ones you talk about are cheap secondhand. Do not build one until you have scoured the secondhand market. A good tri is a fab boat to buy, it is cheap and a good entry into the multi market but a silly boat to make unless it is a Farrier or similar.

Scour some design sites for simple cruisers of about 26-28ft. You can find some seriously solid cruisers if you look. I for one have never ever regretted switching to a cat from cruising but if I were to sell my cat and wanted to buy a multi for just my wife and myself I would save myself about half the purchase price by buying a tri.

cheers

Phil Thompson

[redreuben]

Like the Grainger Spoon Bays showing up in the market now, sex on floats!

[boat fan]

Gday

I am a trimaranophile. I love the things. I got my first - a Piver Nugget 24ft - when I was 16. I used to bang around Sydney and close waters in it until I got a Twiggy - a 31ft racing tri in which I went cruising for two years. I jumped on every tri I could and built a 38ft foam Newick 10 years ago.

Cruising the Twiggy I started drawing the next boat. It was going to be an updated Searunner 40 (a boat I really like) I drew and fiddled and talked, learnt, and worked for one of Australia's best builders - Shawn Arber.

"How do I design a cruising tri?" I would ask him and he would shake his head
"You'd be a fool to build a tri nowadays - more hassle, less room and less resale than a cat. Build a cat"
"But tris are much nicer boats. I want a tri" I would reply

I kept on drawing my strip planked tri for another year and then one night I thought. What would a cat I like look like? I sketched up a cat with an arrangement that gave us twice as much room, much more privacy, more resale and was easier to build. I had been stubborn for years and all it took was a quick sketch.

Tris like the ones you talk about are cheap secondhand. Do not build one until you have scoured the secondhand market. A good tri is a fab boat to buy, it is cheap and a good entry into the multi market but a silly boat to make unless it is a Farrier or similar.

Scour some design sites for simple cruisers of about 26-28ft. You can find some seriously solid cruisers if you look. I for one have never ever regretted switching to a cat from cruising but if I were to sell my cat and wanted to buy a multi for just my wife and myself I would save myself about half the purchase price by buying a tri.

cheers

Phil Thompson



Sounds like good advice to me .Some of those older style tris may be good boats , but building one these days , well , it does not make sense .Years of work , Lots of money. Resale value ......****......

They look well design and I might build one if it's worth it.

Unfortunately its not ( worth it ).
Like catsketcher said , if you don`t mind a dated looking solid boat ,
search the used market and save a bundle of gold and time and work.

At least then , if ( or most likely when ) you upgrade / update your boat you will have a better chance of recovering your money.

Ed Horstman`s boats look solid , but are now quite dated .That`s got to to be bad for resale value.. That goes for all the Pivers , Searunners and others.

[LucD]

Hello Boat fan!
Well, if for you building a boat is a chore, then you are right. You see, for me building a boat is as much fun as to sailing it. Sailing is a hobby, so as building it. Also it depend on the location if there are used trimaran or not. Recently I saw a piver 30' go for 12000.00. So unless I want a crappy fiberglass monohull, I'm out of luck. And last, this is a tread about INFO on certain boat model, not wether or not it's a good idea to build one.
Thank you

[DarthCluin]

Most if not all of Arthur Piver's plans are available from the Mariner's Museum. http://www.mariner.org/library/plans_dwgs/index.php
All three of Arthur Piver's books, "Trans-Atlantic Trimaran", "Trans-Pacific Trimaran", and "Trimaran Third Book" are available used through Amazon.com. I think I paid about $25 each for them. They are mostly about the larger boats, Nimble, Lodestar, and Bird, but they also have bits about construction, sailing, navigation, and some of his smaller designs.
I purchased plans for the 25' Mariner from them last spring, and the price was very reasonable. (I haven't started it yet. I'm currently building a Dierking Wa'apa.)
The Classic Multihulls group on Yahoo has scans of a Piver catalog, partial scans of the later cabin Nugget plans, as well as some scans of the Stiletto drawings in their files section.
I think Newick's Rule applies here. Most modern trimaran designs offer great improvements in performance, but they sacrifice accommodations to do it. Materials cost is probably very similar, but sheet plywood should build faster.

[DarthCluin]

Sorry, that link takes you to the Mariner's Museum, but this is the page:
http://www.mariner.org/library/plans-drawings

[DarthCluin]

You might also find this site interesting:
http://fraseraerotechnologycompany.com/Marine_Division.html
Their Piver catalog scans are cleaner, the have several photos of the 25' Mariner, and pictures of an original 18' design, the Kiwi 18.

[LucD]

Hello Darthcluin !
Thank you for the info, but sadly I already found those site and some more.
Most peoples don't want to talk about an old design like the Piver series. It feels like they're ashamed or something. I think it's a good way to learn.
I was looking a Piver Nugget and nimble, well nugget too small and nimble is too big. I need to transport the boat on a trailer all the time. Then I saw the Tri-Star 26MT It looks very nice but it seems that very few peoples built or have these boat. So I'm here asking questions.

[catsketcher]

Hello LucD

If it is a trailerable tri you want I would be looking at Farrier, Marples, Kendrick Woods or others. I owned a Nugget and almost bought a Nimble - I know these boats really well and they were not designed to fold from the ground up.

You can get a much better designed boat than the ones you consider that is meant to trail.

Have a look through some ads and search for a Trailertri 720. These are good little boats and may be in your price range. I would think it would take about $15 000 - $20 000 Aus to build a simple non folding Nugget today.

Beware of the claims of Piver in his books. He was a very interesting bloke but his boats were banged together and then given away. If you do modern epoxy techniques so that the boat lasts it takes a long time to seal the wood, glass external ply, oversize every drilled hole etc. You can't whack em together or they last only 10 years.

cheers

Phil

[DarthCluin]

LucD,
From your posts, I gather that you really want to build your own boat. I looked up the the TriStar 26MT on Mr. Horstman's website, and from that I can see that you are willing to tackle complicated hull shapes.
Catsketcher named on of my favorite designers, Ray Kendrick. Check out this boat:
http://www.teamscarab.com.au/scarab8/design.html
The plans are resonably priced at $550 AU, construction is Stitch & Glue, and while the accommodations are not as generous as the TriStar, it looks very trailerable. I bet it goes like a rocket.
You might also look at this Kurt Hughes design:
http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/26tri.html
While I am not enthusiastic about the price of the plans, this boat is developed plywood, has good accommodations, is trailerable, and I bet it goes like a rocket too.
I don't know anything about the folding system on the TriStar 26MT. I had considered the TriStar 25 at one point, but then I found the Mariner plans at the Mariner's Museum. That said, I do not like the folding system on the Pivers. Arthur Piver disappeared on one of his folding designs. Some accounts claim it was a Nugget, his protege Jim Brown says it was a 25 footer (which would be a Mariner), and his draftsman Lauren Williams said it was a 28 foot Encore. They also say the boat was in poor condition, and the hinges were loose. I live on the Gulf Coast, and if I build a Mariner, it will be with fixed beams. I figure if you don't have hinges, they can't be loose.
Two more books you might want to look at:
"The Case For The Cruising Trimaran" by Jim Brown
"Multihull Voyaging" by Thomas Firth Jones

[LucD]

catsketcher
The problem is that I don't have 20.000, 15.000 or even 10,000 to put on a boat. I want to build a boat because I have access to cheap price plywood, the fact that I am very handy with my hands and that I am a great scrounger.

I agree with you that any Piver has to be greatly modified to make it in today boat world. I am not yet stopped on any model.

[LucD]

DarthCluin
Yes I really want to build my own boat for financial and interest reasons. The 23/25 or the 26MT is not that complicated and has tons of space, but I have no idea of how they handle. I checked the Scarab8 but again no one can give me fact about the model. As you mention the space is not as grand but the handling is most likely different. I know about Kurt Hughes boats, and again, no facts from owner or the like.

Up to now most peoples want to discourage me to build, I have been on many forum and asking questions. Some were even pist at me because I didn't want to buy or agree with them their boat wasn't the best in the world.

In my area, multihull are very rare, it's a monohull kingdom. I could get a mono dirt cheap (probably where all the fitting and mast will come from for my future boat).

The Piver needs many innovation to fit the bill, but it's doable. I didn't know about the 25' mariner until recently, I still know very little about it. I was looking at the 27' Chariot or 27.5 Quest and now the 25' Mariner. The AA series sound much better from the description and with modern modification, who knows. One of the mod could be putting tube a little like the Buccaneer 24 (this is a guess) but the hinges have to go.

The boat has to be trailerable and as much as possible below 1500Lbs. In my nec of the wood, sometime the bottom raise very fast because of sand, rocks or any other crap that lay there. I saw many keel get damaged or broken, for this reason, dagger board in the ama are interesting. I want to be able to leave Friday afternoon and come back Sunday afternoon for 2 or 4 persons.

[jamez]

If you want an older style tri might be worth checking out Searunner and Cross designs. They are supposed to sail better than the Pivers.

[catsketcher]

Gday LucD

I agree with the last post - the Searunner 25 can fold fine - again you may be able to pick one up really cheap, I did see a post on one a few years back and the guy got it cheap.

If cost is a really big problem then a simple Piver may be okay. I would widen the Nugget about 2 feet and increase the beam depth and get rid of the side decks. A simple tri can be quick to build. Peter Snell, the designer of the Easy cats, built a Piver AA 38 in 4 months. He can build fast but the boats are fast to stick together. One big reason is the lack of finicky interior furnishings.

Maybe we have this the wrong way around. LucD, why don't you have a look at the boats you can get cheap - donor boats. Then we can help advise on a design that could use the rig and deck fittings. A donor boat is a fine thing to use - I did this on my little folder.

Of course with a tri probably the ultimate donor boat is a tornado or Hobie 18. The you can use the floats, the rig and the deck fittings and all you need to build and buy is the main hull and beams. A Nugget once had a reverse donation and got the floats from an A class of all things. A good mate did this with a free surf boat and a cheap Hobie 18. He has a nice 26ft daysailer tri with little effort.

cheers

Phil

[DarthCluin]

LucD,
The Mariner 25 is fat compared to a Nugget. Beam on the waterline compared to length on the waterline is about 1:8 for the Mariner, and 1:10 for the Nugget. This makes the Nugget a faster boat, but the Mariner a more capacious boat. The Fraser Aerotechnology website has pictures of the Mariner that Richard Fraser built back in 1970. It has two berths, a minimal galley, a settee, and a head. The Mariner's Museum has plans for both the standard version and the commercially manufactured PiCraft version. The biggest difference between the TriStar 25 and the Mariner is that the Mariner has a hard chine hull, and the Tristar is cold molded.
Any of the slimmer Pivers will be faster than Mariner, and I really don't think she is big enough to cruise four. I've seen a picture of a cabin version of the 27' Chariot, but the only drawings I have seen were for a day sailer. The 27.5' Quest and the 28' Encore both show berths for four (two doubles).
When I decided I wanted the Mariner plans, I filled out a research request and paid the Mariner's Museum $15 to look it up. They emailed me a list of the drawings available for that particular design. I picked the ones I wanted from the list. They charge a per square foot reproduction fee, and I'm not sure but I think it worked out to around $15 a sheet for 18"x24".
From the two catalogs I have seen, the AA series seems to jump from the AA-17 to the AA-31 with nothing in between, and the Pi-Craft jump from 25' to 30' with nothing in between.
Jim Brown turned his Searunner designs over to Jim Marples, and you can find them here:
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/kPlans.php#John Marples
I think in many ways Searunners were next evolutionary step after Pivers. Jim vented the wings and added low aspect ratio keels with centerboards.
Norman Cross' designs are here:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res78939/index.html
The Cross boats are sleek looking, and they have been good performers. I think the Cross 24 is the largest that is trailerable, and I believe it has a draft of around 34". I ordered study plans for the Cross 26/27 back in May, and haven't heard a peep since.
I am not pushing the Mariner. Its not the only plan on my shelf, and when I finish my Wa'apa, I might have talked myself into one of the others (though mind you except for Mbuli, the newest one of the lot dates back to 1983).

[jamez]

Gday LucD

I agree with the last post - the Searunner 25 can fold fine - again you may be able to pick one up really cheap, I did see a post on one a few years back and the guy got it cheap.



I like this photo of the 25 off the back of 'Searunner Construction' - looks like a nice day they were having :cool:

There were a couple of articles published in Multihulls Magazine from a guy who rebuilt one and set it up for regular trailing. May/June and July/August 1994.

[DarthCluin]

LucD,
Something you may not have looked at:
http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/merlin.htm
I know you are interested in trimarans, but you might want to look at the Woods Merlin. This is a 25' catamaran, it sleeps at least one person in each hull, and IF the plans include the cuddy, it would sleep a total of four people. I say if, because the materials list does not show materials for the cuddy. The hull can be built in cedar strip planking, which might free you from having to use cheap plywood. The boat is demountable and trailerable. The website has a video showing how it sails, and links to a page with lots of photographs and a materials list. If it looks like it might work for you, email Richard and ask if the plans include the cuddy. The biggest downside would be that strip planking uses lots of glue and a lot of sanding.

[DarthCluin]

LucD,
Something you may not have looked at:
http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/merlin.htm
I know you are interested in trimarans, but you might want to look at the Woods Merlin. This is a 25' catamaran, it sleeps at least one person in each hull, and IF the plans include the cuddy, it would sleep a total of four people. I say if, because the materials list does not show materials for the cuddy. The hull can be built in cedar strip planking, which might free you from having to use cheap plywood. The boat is demountable and trailerable. The website has a video showing how it sails, and links to a page with lots of photographs and a materials list. If it looks like it might work for you, email Richard and ask if the plans include the cuddy. The biggest downside would be that strip planking uses lots of glue and a lot of sanding. If you are willing to take electronic files instead of paper, the plans are 275 pounds (sorry, I don't have the pound sterling symbol on my keyboard).

[DarthCluin]

Sorry,
I meant to just edit in the price, but instead I posted it twice. My bad.

[DarthCluin]

LucD,
Whatever you choose to build, make sure it is what you, yourself wants to build. You should feel passionate about whatever design you choose. Building even a small boat involves a lot of labor. Murphy's laws of construction apply, "Everything takes longer and costs more". You need to want it badly enough that when everything goes wrong you can still say to yourself. "I want this boat!" Then you fix whatever you messed up and move on to the next step.

[LucD]

Hello!
Well I am not stopped at any model yet, I even look at Proa like the HarrysProa
http://www.harryproa.com But I can't afford to spit 3.000AU just for plans.

These are the ideal requirement I have for my dream boat::D
Made of plywood/Epoxy
24 to 26 feet (maybe 27)
Must have cabin for 2 sleeping (possibly accept 4 sitting)
Big enough to spend the entire weekend for 2 (3 or 4 night) (no bells or fancy) (camping style)
Must be folding or trailerable
1500Lbs or below (as much as possible)
As fast as possible (considering the previous configuration)
Able to coastal or deeper (I sailed the St-Laurence, river and lake here and there, Great-Lake and North-Atlantic)
I looked at Cat, Tri and Proa but my mind is not set (too many model)

If possible, dagger-board in the ama instead of keel in the hull (very often the bottom come up very fast around my neck of the wood) I saw a few sail boat run their keel aground and sometime wreck their hull. It might be better to just change a broken dagger-board. I was told this can be modified on most tri.

I saw the Tri-Star 23/25 and the 26MT (I find them beautiful and out of the ordinary) but I have no idea on how they handle.
I also looked at the Buccaneer 24 (or a modified bigger version of it)
I looked more to trimaran than the other because of the safety factor when things go really bad (I had this experience in the North-Atlantic with someone in a mono-hull, the water is very cold).
Talking with many peoples on many group I got a lot of "maybe" "probably" "I bet" and "I'm sure of" but rarely fact. I don't want to put a lot of $ on maybe.

[jamez]

Check out the Marples Constant Camber CC26. I think it fits your described criteria above and it folds on the trailer. Bit olde stylie looking but the couple of people I've talked to who built them found them straight-forward to construct and a great sea boat.

[LucD]

Hello Jamez
What boat did you make or have? What is your experience with them?
I ask you this because I've seen you on many forum requesting plans and asking questions.

[LucD]

What is the difference between the Searunner and the CC series?

[Seafarer24]

Building method. Searunner uses a jig, CC uses a mold.

The Tristars are / were good, seaworthy boats. The Pivers just perform too poorly (they're the 3-hulled equivalent to a Wharram catamaran). The Searunners have the best layout you can find in a trimaran. I'd love to see a Tristar design with a Searunner layout....

[DarthCluin]

From:
http://www.marinetimbers.com.au/methods.htm

Constant Camber Construction
Constant Camber is a hull moulding technique developed in USA by multihull specialists John Marples and James Brown. The hull is designed to be formed by joining a number of separate panels all made on the same curved mould, the panels being formed by laminating alternating layers of veneer or plywood strips to the necessary thickness and then consolidating them under a vacuum bag. Simply put, it makes curved plywood panels that are joined together in the same way as making any plywood boat. The method utilise only one mould, eliminates framing, and minimises finishing and fairing work.

And Searunner 26:
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery?KID=55

[LucD]

Seaferer24
Do you know anything about the Tristar boat model? almost no one seems to know anything (that is why I am hesitating).
I like the model looks of the 23/25 and 26MT, but are they any good???

[LucD]

DarthCluin
So basically, for the CC they vacuum bag layers of plywood instead o foam core.
Now I understand better why they had plywood in bag for the construction of the Rikki-tikki-tavi http://www.svrikki.net/RTT/FrameSet.html
It look like you need a ton of space to do it that way. But it look like plywood bagging is much stronger than foam. Bagging of any kind scares me a little.

[jamez]

Hello Jamez
What boat did you make or have? What is your experience with them?
I ask you this because I've seen you on many forum requesting plans and asking questions.

In the last 6 years I've built a stitch n tape rowing skiff, done a major rebuild on my Wharram Hinemoa and currently have a Nicky Cruz 25 Tri in the early stages of construction. Prior to that I owned mono's and did all my own maintenance on them.

It took me 7 years, 30 + sets of study prints, numerous photocopied magazine articles and a load of emails to designers and builders of various cat and tri designs I was interested in before I choose a design I could be completely happy with and build without modification. I just hope it doesn't take me 7 years to build it ;)

[jamez]

What is the difference between the Searunner and the CC series?

The Searunner is a centre cockpit design built in sheet ply over stringers and frames, The CC26 has a rear cockpit and is built in CC as described previously. The attached page is from Derek Harveys book Multihulls for Cruising and Racing (a good read IMO). The frame and stringer example is a Searunner 25, the CC example is a CC26. If your library has Dave Gerrs book 'Pocket Cruisers for the backyard builder' it has a chapter on the CC26 and another 'low frills' Marples design the Seaclipper 28.

R T Tavi certainly is a major achievment. The CC 26 and 30 are relatively simple by comparison. CC works if you can get cheap 3mm ply or veneer - you need lots of epoxy too. Then you can build all the panels in a small space. I was tempted because I had enough undercover space to build a mold and make panels and I think I could have got away with assembling it under a tarp in our summer. From memory you need 13 panels -so one a weekend over winter. In the end I went with something a little roomier and built a temporary extension to the shed.

[LucD]

He Jamez
Nice boat collection
Why did you pick the Cruz 25?
Thank you for the pic. The second one about hull help's to better understand each principles. My library is very limited and before I buy any other book I want to make my mind on a boat model.
So now I'm in my question and learning phase.

[DarthCluin]

LucD,
I found some pictures of a Tristar 23 here:
http://www.themultihull.com/misc/lk1.htm

I found this discussion on Cruisers Forum:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/older-horstman-trimaran-8353.html

[jamez]

He Jamez
Nice boat collection
Why did you pick the Cruz 25?
Thank you for the pic. The second one about hull help's to better understand each principles. My library is very limited and before I buy any other book I want to make my mind on a boat model.
So now I'm in my question and learning phase.

Thanks lucD. I don't have them all now though. The skiff I sold last year, the Wharram is for sale now, but no takers. I don't have much money in it, but lots of sweat equity. I'll get another summer before selling it for zilch.

I picked the NC 25 because it had everything I wanted (a couple of sit-up settee berths, reasonable headroom (1.7m), performance potential with a decent rig) and none of the stuff I didn't; like folding capability, an awkward interior, narrow foredeck, etc.etc. All with a material/construction method I understand. AND the designer lives across town - so no communication hassles. I'm enjoying the build but it is challenging at times, not through any idiosyncracy of the design, but just due to my own limitations. All boatbuilding is a lot of work.

[LucD]

Thank's DarthCluin
I also saw these for Tristar:
http://www.themultihull.com/misc/tf1.htm
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/index.html
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/specs/TRI-26MT_4view.pdf
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/album-tri/pages/TRiStar%2024%20Pat%20Webb%20UK%20%28ps%29.html
and more from other places but not many want to talk about it (none up to now).:(

[LucD]

LucD,
I found this discussion on Cruisers Forum:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/older-horstman-trimaran-8353.html

I was afraid that the TriStar would be a water hog because of his water line and wet are. I was wondering if a largely modified Buccaneer 24 would do the trick.
I read on this forum that some member successfully modified their B24 to 28 feet and more. I have no idea what the inside look like.
The CC26 does look nice and I read on some forum that some people forgot to lower the center board and they didn't notice the difference, Hummmmm.

[DarthCluin]

I don't remember an enlarged Buccaneer 24, however there is a Buccaneer 28. Getting plans could be a problem though. I hate to be vague, but I think someone in the Buccaneer 24 forums had a set. That's where I snagged these images. I recall that someone else was experimenting with a redesign to try to get more room in a 24, however I think TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch) applies.

[catsketcher]

If you think a Nugget is too small a Bucc is smaller.

[LucD]

There's a modified b24 to 28 feet renamed Matilda http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/22-24-trimaran-23449.html
The guy successfully made many modification to it, 28 feet, dagger-board in ama and more.
The nugget is too small in LOA and the hull if too fat if the B28 is anything like the B24, we are talking 20+ knots easy (with proper wind and sail).
I saw some report, on this forum, of B24 doing 20 knots.
The more cabin space you have the slower you go (depending on the hull).
The longer the hull is themore stable in coppy sea.
I really want to be moving in low wind. The B24 is probably too small. but properly modified, who knows.

[DarthCluin]

I am familiar with that posting, however I don't think he lengthened the cabin, he added a long raked transom and a bowsprit. Compare the side view in the photograph to the side view in the Buccaneer 24 drawings.

[DarthCluin]

On his early trimarans Arthur Piver used centerboards. In his books he claimed that he rarely needed to use the centerboard. On the later Mariner, Nimble, and Stiletto plans he included drawings for small fixed fins to be placed on the amas instead of a centerboard in the main hull. I have no idea if that was effective. Most of the Nimbles that I have seen out of the water have a shallow fin keel similar to the Cross designs.
In his book "Boats To Go" Tom Jones describes designing, building, and sailing his 28'-6" trimaran Hummingbird.
"Without the daggerboard, she definitely made progress, tacking in 90 or 100 degrees or whatever you like. She made some visible leeway, but threw a nice wake, and gave a lively, interesting feeling... When we put down the daggerboard, the wake disappeared. It was caused by dragging the hulls sideways through the water. Speed appeared to be less, but believe me it wasn't. In a decent wind and seaway, Hummingbird will make good better than 4 knots to windward... In ghosting conditions, she will keep making progress toward her destination when boats with inadequate leeway prevention are going straight sideways."
http://www.jonesboats.com/index.html

[LucD]

DarthCluin
You probably have a pretty good library.
I think you misunderstood me. I definitely plan to have a keel, dagger-board or some sort of leeway prevention device on the boat I will built.
I only mention it because it was mention in two different forum. I have nowhere near as much sailing experience as some claim to have here, but I do know my basic sailing.
If you sail without a counter leeway device, you are likely wasting wind energy and augmenting your travel time.
I heard the mention of Jones boat once or twice, but no info beside being heavy.

[LucD]

DarthCluin
You are saying that on Matilda, he only added L.O.A and no hull beam?
I guess it's possible just to remove some of the choppy motion.
I wonder what it really does to the design dynamic of the hull.
I think he also mention moving the ama forward.
In any case, these are big changes to a already built boat.

[DarthCluin]

LucD,
Books are my bane. The problem with a good library is that shelf and room space is finite. When you want to add something, something else has to go. Then after you let it go you later discover you needed it. I could still kick myself for letting go of my copy of "Sailing The Farm".
In the 22-24 trimaran forum Gary Baigent comments that the stern sections rocker was too sharp and the extended stern filled it in and faired it to reduce the stern wave and eliminate transom dragging. The downside to this modification is that you have to use a spade rudder instead of the kick up rudder. Shoal waters + spade rudder + inattention or just plain bad luck = having to learn to steer your boat by trimming the sails.

[bill broome]

don't listen to those catlovers. they are luring you into bigger boats, because, in 6-8m range, tris are better.

they fold and go on a trailer quickly, with a big saving in mooring and maintenance cost. the accommodation space is in one human sized space. you can build the central hull and add-on a 5 1/2m beach cat at big saving in time. they may even sail better, certainly just as good.

but which tri? build a 7m narrow dory, add deckhouse. won't have much resale value, no 'name', but it won't cost much either. if workmanship is good, you'll get your money back. besides, doing your own is worth a lot of money.

[DarthCluin]

LucD,
If you are interested, there is currently a set of Buccaneer 24 plans for sale on Ebay:
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=trimaran+plans&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[themanshed]

I think I have plans for a Tri-Star 18 that I never built. Bought them over 20 years ago.

[LucD]

Bill
You don't have to worry, I would never build something I don't want in the first place. As I mention before I'm gathering information.
First, I am not going to build a boat and make too many changes, it makes no sense. If someone does that it's because he didn't pick the right boat for himself in the first place.
And second, Usually these boat don't look good because they don't continue with the boat design look, like adding a square helm cabin on a 40' Piver.

[LucD]

DartCluin
Thank you for the information but I already have the Buccaneer 24 plans from someone here. But I keep my option and ears open until the very last minute.
Beside I'm learning about boat building, I sailed and repaired but never built one.
I bought a few books about hull shape and different techniques on building wooden boat. Hull shape is not a simple matter and is much more complicated than I first tough. I don't want to talk about hull shape in this tread. I think this tread is not going anywhere anymore except off topic. I will start an other tread and continu my learning curve.

[LucD]

Themanshed
Thank you for the offer but I learned that Tristar no matter on how I like the look they're too heavy for their seize and for my need and speed.

Thank you all :p :D

[themanshed]

I know what you mean. I fall somewhat in the same boat. I worked in my collage days for lay-up shops building from molds but never from paper plans up. I've looked at all the plans over the last 20 years. I really like Kurt Hughes CM method made a lot of sense. I was going to build a 38 foot cat even looked at some finished boats. Stock went to hell and not getting any younger so I decided to build a 20 foot racing tri instead I had the stock plan modified and started building the mold planning on foam / Egass then decided to switch to carbon fiber when I found carbon for $18/yard. I will be featured in the next few days on www.smalltrimarans.com check out my work. Good luck!

[LucD]

Hello Mike !
It look like a very a very fast boat. Are making it entirely out of carbon?
Where did you get $18/yard carbon? There are quality, stretch etc to be considered for carbon.
What kind of quality is it? From what you're saying, it's your first build and you're starting in carbon, do you have anyone with you that knows about carbon?
From the photo, you seem to have a big team with you, unlike me.
For me it's me, my self and I for most project (on occasion, the wife pitch in).
This is why a modified Buccaneer 24 is very interesting.

[themanshed]

LucD,

Thanks I hope to build it fast moving from catamarans to tris. Most of the boat is carbon / foam. The spar is carbon and the hulls will be carbon. The basic lay-up is 2 skins of 200-gram unidirectional 90degree carbon on each side of the 3/8th inch foam. High stress areas will have 4 – 6 layers of carbon as needed. Then there will be one outside skin of 4oz unidirectional E-Glass to protect the carbon. The bulkheads, very small on this boat, will be Triax E-Glass as the carbon I have will not add any benefit.

I found a lady in California that re-buys Carbon; end of runs, leftover from large productions, or seconds. Unlike E-Glass Carbon has a shelf life so companies like to sell off overages so they do not sit on it. She has contacts in this market. My roll was straight from the mill it was a flaw for a special order. Now get this the edge was suppose to be 1 over 1 under on the weave it was 2 over 1 under, so what? There is nothing wrong with the roll it did not have the visual that the order wanted so it was a reject. A lot of carbon is purchased for visual effect, anyway I’m happy. My website www.themanshed.net has a link to the site. She has listings of what she has access to at the time you will find an assortment of cloth types. I waited about a month to find the cloth available that I was looking for the you have to be ready to purchase as it first come $$ first serve.

I was apprehensive about carbon as everybody is until they use it. It’s just fiberglass cloth nothing mystical except the strength and cost. I did meet with Kevin Cook who built a 34’ tri from vacuum bagged carbon and another NA about carbon and vacuum bagging before beginning my project. Since I was starting out large with a 20-foot hull out of carbon and first vacuum bag project I had a few bucks and man-hours invested I wanted to make sure I had it right. It is not that bad just got to be ready and organized when it time to do it. That is why I had a crew with me. Usually I work solo on the boat with a hand from my wife or son if asked and tracked down. That is why I like the foam strip method. But when it come to lay-up time for the glass a few extra hands always makes it easier!

Good Luck with your project.

[oldsailor7]

If you think a Nugget is too small a Bucc is smaller.

I Have to pick you up on that one Catsketcher.

I have built, owned and comprehensively sailed both the Piver Nugget and the Crowther Buccaneer 24.

The Nugget for 4 years and the B24 for 2 years.

The Nugget had only two real bunks, although at a pinch the cabin seat could be used. The B24 has three real bunks, and I understand Samnz sleeps four on weekends away.

The Nugget was a nice little boat for lake sailing, but I wouldn't have trusted it in rough water sailing. The "Hardware Store" hinges were downright dangerous. I replaced mine with 1/4" fabricated steel plate, at great expense. The deep V outrigger hulls were a pain at anchor or when power boats were passing. I can recall at least three occasions where our meals ended up on the floor. The galley was non existant, but it was the first boat where I developed the "Lidded bucket under the head of the forward bunk" as a toilet. :D
The B24 will sleep three in their own comfortable bunks, is very strong and is a superb sea boat in any conditions. It took me a year to build the Nugget.
Six weeks to build the B24. Admittedly it was my fourth plywood boat and the experience was benificial.

The Nugget was one of Pivers first designs, and is therefore a member of the "First Generation" of multihull design, considered to be from 1955 to 1966, When "Toria" broke the mold and rocketed Cat and Tri design ahead. Lock Crowther falls into the "Second Generation" with his record breaking "Bunyip' in 1966 and his subsequent line of racing and cruising Cats and Tris.
Lock designed the Buccaneer 24 to be a simple, inexpensive, fast cruising Tri which scould accomodate 3 people in comfort and safety, and have at the same time the ability to gobble up the miles effortlessly.
Of all Locks boats the B24 plans outsold ALL of Locks other designs and more importantly, more of them were actually completed.

I have built and sailed seven multihulls of my own over the years, and I look back on the B.24 with great fondness. The best Tri I have ever owned however, was the Buccaneer 28. Unfortunately the plans for it today are made of "Unobtainum". (Although I understand Tom has a set)

[redreuben]

Well then I think Tom needs a friendly persuasive visit from "the boys" http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gifhttp://www.boatdesign.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[blackdaisies]

http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/specs/TRI-25_3view.pdf

Here's a pdf with some nice pictures of a real Tristar 23 or 25. Most pictures available are of the 24. Thought you might like this, if you hadn't already found it.

[oldsailor7]

Sorry about that but the Tristar 25 is a real "1st Generation " Clunker.
Heavy, underpowered and (IMO) Ugly. :rolleyes:

[pedcab]

Hello!

Someone mention trimaran from Tri-Star:
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/index.html
They also mention Piver trimaran (very little info available)

They look well design and I might build one if it's worth it.
I was wondering how they perform, speed, balance, design etc..?
If you are a owner or had one of these, please post some info.

Thank you

Hi LucD

I've also been trying to find any other Piver trimaran owners out there, although with nothing but little luck.

I'm the proud owner of a Piver Nugget 24 built back in 1965 which I was recently given (three years ago). The previous owner, and builder, health was rapidly deteriorating and, having found himself in the eminence of having his boat abandoned, he gave it to me fully equipped with a set of North Sails, a Tohatsu 5hp outboard, autopilot, depth sounder, the works... I'm just another lucky guy...

Following the recent discovery of your post I've decided to reply in behalf of these great little boats that, mostly due to poor construction, have gained a somewhat bad reputation.

About your questions:

Safety: I've never found myself in a situation with Fulô out of which I would have managed to get out easier in a single hulled boat about the same size. The Nugget is what we here in Portugal call an honest boat: Never broaches and never misses a tack, even in choppy water, provided theres enough wind to move it. The boom rides somewhat low, but that's just something I re-learnt to live with, after all I've came from Europe dinghy sailing and I belive there's no boat with a lower boom than an Europe :)

Performance: As in all trimarans, specially older designs, don't expect it to point as high as a Snipe or as a Sharpie 12m. I'm quite happy to be able to tack my Nugget within 90º to 100º from the wind. The best angle on my Nugget is about 60º to the true wind. That way it can easily reach 12 knots in flat water if propelled by, say, 17 to 20 knots of wind. At those speeds it becomes a "wet" boat to sail with water flying all arround, but I guess that's part of the fun isn't it? Anyway, I often sail Fulô under 25+ knots of wind under full main and jib with little to report: It remais fully controlable in every situation.

Design: Being a daysailor it has a tiny cabin that can sleep two adults (and a small child or a dog): One in the bow bunk and the other in the cabin floor. Nevertheless I still prefer to fly past latest generation Benetaus and Jeanneaus at 12 knots in a 40+ year old trimaran and spend the night cooking in a portable camping cooker in a cosy little cabin than to drag my but upriver in a chunky fiberglass bunker always looking at the sounder just to spend the evening in a leather sofa watching my plasma TV and drinking eleborated cocktails :)

Here are some pics of Fulô performing:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3001/20ktupwind.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7682/emanueljordo2009i.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6959/fulp.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7435/hpim4613.jpg

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4739/pict0087v.jpg


Also, if you're interested in it, you can check out me and my father's blog (he owns a Gros Plant mini transat that he built himself) with lots of other pics.

www.utrimaran.blogspot.com

Or our photo album here (http://picasaweb.google.pt/pedro.mf.cabral/FulEAzul#)

Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you need any more advice or if you have any questions about sailing a Piver Nugget Trimaran.

Regards from Portugal

[Steve W]

I am repairing a Searunner 25 for a customer right now,its an insurance job,the boat dragged its mooring and did a fair bit of damage to the port Ama,anyway its a 28 year old boat and i am amazed how nice it is,it was apparently built in Michigan by a father and son,im thinking the father was a boatbuilder and a good one at that judging by the build quality and details,the current owner just bought it this spring for $7800usd with a custom trailer,i would describe it as demountable rather than folding but it comes apart fairly easily,it is a very cool little Tri but it does not have much interior space.I know the OP wants to build but i have a friend who has one of these that i think he would sell,its not as nice as this one though but would im sure be a lot cheaper.
A Cross would be a good choice as others have mentioned,Horstman has a neat little 24ft tri with a plumb stem and berths up on the wing both side but it also hinges,i dont know how that works,his boats have the most space you can get in a tri.
Another thought is that i fairly recently saw the female mold for sale for a Skip Johnson designed 24ft tri called Seawings or something like that,that would allow you to build a fully molded glass boat,its an older boat from the 70s i think should be cheap molds but it is a very nice looking boat.
Steve.

[Steve W]

Ok,i just found those molds,the guy only wants $750 for all the tooling including the trailer they are on.Google craigslist san diego and type in trimaran under boats.The guy also has a Searunner 31 for 2k. Just some options.
Steve.

[Landlubber]

If anyone is interested, I have the original Seaskiff Boat Plans book on the Arthur Pivor NUGGET, I can photocopy the plans and email them..1962.

[pedcab]

If anyone is interested, I have the original Seaskiff Boat Plans book on the Arthur Pivor NUGGET, I can photocopy the plans and email them..1962.

Hello Landlubber!

As the proud owner of a Nugget I'm mighty interested ! :)

[Landlubber]

pedcab, send me a private email and I will photocopy the docs for you

[Ilan Voyager]

If you want an older style tri might be worth checking out Searunner and Cross designs. They are supposed to sail better than the Pivers.
I would stay away from a Piver tri. Not good boats, no resale value, horrible engineering. In a few words a waste of time and money.
Jim Brown designed rather good boats but more for high sea cruising than coastal cruising, the normal use of these small boats. But putting a bit of money in plans which are INVESTMENT, you have Kurt Hughes with the cylinder mold, Malcom Tennant, Cross and others.
In small sizes, cats are cheaper and easier to make. Beams can be made from industrial aluminium tubes or even used masts. Two Hulls to make,not three, less surface, less complicated. A good tent at mooring on the wide deck of a cat is more comfortable than the cramped inside of a small tri.
I know that by experience...
Coastal cruise is funnier with a lively and fast boat able to move in the light winds prevalent in summer, the season of main use of these boats. You won't sail with a force seven wind with a 25-27 boat, or in the middle of a harsh winter. So keep it light, it's not an ocean cruiser.

[pedcab]

pedcab, send me a private email and I will photocopy the docs for you

Hi again Landlubber

I'm afraid I can't send you an email cause your contact info is restricted here at the forum.

If you send one to me at pedro.mf.cabral@gmail.com or if you send me your e-mail via PM I'd be happy to answer you...

Thanks in advance!

Regards!

[Landlubber]

On its way mate.

[pedcab]

Thank you very much ;)

PEdro

[cavalier mk2]

I actually talked to Ed Horstman about the 23- 26' designs you mentioned and he was quite passionate about how well they sailed. He is semi retired from multihulls now but one of the 2 boats he keeps is his old 25' which is no where near as modern but performs well according to Ed. He lives in a airplane hanger in Montana and is a very interesting guy who has kept up on his aerospace roots. The boats have a blend of volume and performance that many have found to be a good compromise and his plans are a very good value on todays market. Styles change but how a boat works doesn't, many get caught into the trap of pursuing performance they won't use while missing on the utility they need. Even those old Pivers have good off wind speed and simple enough construction so anyone can have a self propelled waterfront cottage. Finding a old boat that needs a new hull is economical and often seen in the world of classic yachts , why not classic tris and cats ?

[FredMG]

I've owned two Searunners, a 25 and a 31, and I've been on and sailed on some Tri-Stars from Ed Horstman. Years back Ed and I had some nice chats via email, and I visited his home when he was still in the LA area, though I met his wife only as he was out.

Searunners are great boats for cruising. The center cockpit does chop up the interior though. They have lots of storage, but again, in part due to the center cockpit over two engine/storage or dual storage areas, plus elsewhere. You also don't get a nice double berth without converting the dining area if you have a 31 or a 34. Write me at fredmgoldfarb@hotmail.com for more info on my experiences.

Horstman, unlike Jim Brown, who was self-taught, was a trained aeronautical engineer working in the Industry when he designed, built, lived aboard, and did a Hawaii race on his first boat, a 40'er. Later he applied design and engineering theory to his line of tris, and his books go into detail about why he did what he did. For example: Tri-Stars don't have very much more windage than say Searunner, though they look like they would. This is because what the human eye sees is not what the wind "sees", which is the overall profile, including hull sides and cabin sides. There is a little more windage on a Tri-Star bow, but not a huge amount more in practical terms. Strength is easy to show, as the "monocoque" construction and "raised deck" design of the Tri-Stars gives fewer joints, and more overall boat strength than other designs. Visually however, many sailors have mixed views on the aesthetics of a Tri-Star, but to me, given equally good paint jobs, a Tri-Star is as "pretty" or moreso than a Searunner, which has a fairly "conventional" look. Tri-Stars, like Searunners, have very enviable safety records, better use of interior space, double berths for 4 starting with the 24'er, and frankly sail as well as any Searunner I've owned or been on, and sail much better than the older Pivers. They are not real speed machines however, but give what Dick Newick would probably call a good "two out of three" when it comes to speed, accommodation, and cost, all being in moderation for the Tri-Stars.

If you plan to live aboard while cruising, a Tri-Star 27-9 or a Searunner 31 is probably the minimum size to get. If you like interiors where you don't have to cross the cockpit to get to a (single) berth or the head, get the Tri-Star. The galley in both is about equal in usefulness, just arranged slightly differently. For deck space and ease of deck movement while at dock or sailing, the Tri-Star beats the Searunner 31 open wing design (the one I had). If I had a dog (which I do now but didn't when I had the Brown 31), I'd go for the Tri-Star too, as it let's the pooch go for a walk while sailing much easier than on the Brown!

There are many Browns around for sale too, but Tri-Stars, which I know were built in probably as many numbers as the Searunners, don't show up much for sale, except in the larger sizes (38'ers and up). I suspect Tri-Star owners keep their boats longer than do Searunner owners due to being very satisfied with their choice, so it's harder to find a Tri-Star of a given size, but they are out there so you have to look more.

Again, email me at fredmgoldfarb@hotmail.com if you'd like to chew the fat on these designs.

[FredMG]

I've owned two Searunners, a 25 and a 31, and I've been on and sailed on some Tri-Stars from Ed Horstman. Years back Ed and I had some nice chats via email, and I visited his home when he was still in the LA area, though I met his wife only as he was out.

Searunners are great boats for cruising. The center cockpit does chop up the interior though. They have lots of storage, but again, in part due to the center cockpit over two engine/storage or dual storage areas, plus elsewhere. You also don't get a nice double berth without converting the dining area if you have a 31 or a 34. Write me at fredmgoldfarb@hotmail.com for more info on my experiences.

Horstman, unlike Jim Brown, who was self-taught, was a trained aeronautical engineer working in the Industry when he designed, built, lived aboard, and did a Hawaii race on his first boat, a 40'er. Later he applied design and engineering theory to his line of tris, and his books go into detail about why he did what he did. For example: Tri-Stars don't have very much more windage than say Searunner, though they look like they would. This is because what the human eye sees is not what the wind "sees", which is the overall profile, including hull sides and cabin sides. There is a little more windage on a Tri-Star bow, but not a huge amount more in practical terms. Strength is easy to show, as the "monocoque" construction and "raised deck" design of the Tri-Stars gives fewer joints, and more overall boat strength than other designs. Visually however, many sailors have mixed views on the aesthetics of a Tri-Star, but to me, given equally good paint jobs, a Tri-Star is as "pretty" or moreso than a Searunner, which has a fairly "conventional" look. Tri-Stars, like Searunners, have very enviable safety records, better use of interior space, double berths for 4 starting with the 24'er, and frankly sail as well as any Searunner I've owned or been on, and sail much better than the older Pivers. They are not real speed machines however, but give what Dick Newick would probably call a good "two out of three" when it comes to speed, accommodation, and cost, all being in moderation for the Tri-Stars.

If you plan to live aboard while cruising, a Tri-Star 27-9 or a Searunner 31 is probably the minimum size to get. If you like interiors where you don't have to cross the cockpit to get to a (single) berth or the head, get the Tri-Star. The galley in both is about equal in usefulness, just arranged slightly differently. For deck space and ease of deck movement while at dock or sailing, the Tri-Star beats the Searunner 31 open wing design (the one I had). If I had a dog (which I do now but didn't when I had the Brown 31), I'd go for the Tri-Star too, as it let's the pooch go for a walk while sailing much easier than on the Brown!

There are many Browns around for sale too, but Tri-Stars, which I know were built in probably as many numbers as the Searunners, don't show up much for sale, except in the larger sizes (38'ers and up). I suspect Tri-Star owners keep their boats longer than do Searunner owners due to being very satisfied with their choice, so it's harder to find a Tri-Star of a given size, but they are out there so you have to look more.

Again, email me at fredmgoldfarb@hotmail.com if you'd like to chew the fat on these designs.

[cavalier mk2]

The Tri Stars also have great endplate effect for the sails because of the flush deck. I salvaged a Searunner 31 last year and had to cut up the main hull as there was rot on top of the rot. Part of the problem are the wings which angle up toward the amas requiring counter platforms with little air flow clearance for level surfaces. Friends with larger sizes mention that the wings can pound. When the boat heals the angled up bottom wing becomes a flat surface to the waves. If it was flat to start with as the boat heels it becomes more of a angled face for softer impacts. I noticed this in my Nicol which has the level wings and lighter weight of eliminating extra furniture weight. I liked the center cockpit as it puts the payload and crew in a good spot but think it adds weight with a 2nd hatch,extra floors etc...I think Old Sailor busted me asking wharram questions on Scott Brown's forum site as from last year I started to think about things to do with the mast, amas etc... I wound up with. If I put together a new 31 hull for people to rent it would definitely be modified to eliminate the extra weight and rot traps. When the boat was designed highway transport demanded 8' demounted beam but it is a bit wider now. I would extend the bulkheads clear of the sides so the a-frames don't have to pierce the membrane, the other great rot trap. A fairing in front of them or board along the cabinside would take care of the no projection rule when transporting to the assembly site. As I remarked to Imaginary Number in an e-mail the molded chines are heavy and expensive needing a lot of epoxy. I would replace them with chine logs like the old Brown 41. Developing skills with tools can save weight and money. We have quite a few searunner 31s in the NW and they sail great making a rebuild ponderable but at the same time I started doodling with Wharram mods as a way to use the mast and let the local hippies go sailing to keep them away from my Nicol! Seriously all those boats are proven designs now and fun for adventure sailing. Ed said his most popular design was his 27-9. The main thing is it is faster to learn about boats if you are sailing them versus trying to figure it all out by theory then build one. There are used boats out there that can get you sailing sooner but make sure they have good gear so you can use it on your next dream boat !

[FredMG]

I eventually had some rot problems with my Searunner 31. One place was around the A-Frame bulkheads by the cabin sides, another was due to some previous owner (I was #4) installing an overhead light in the forward dressing area using a self-tapping sheet metal screw that just barely pierced the fiberglass sheathing on the cabintop. Over the years, meaning closer to or more than around 10 years, moister got in and caused interply delamination, which was both expensive and nasty to fix. If I had a Searunner again I'd either want the solid wing version, or perhaps do a "Wharram" deck and use narrowish planks between the cross beam members, to give a more or less solid feel, no bouncy net or trampoline circus acts, yet allow lots of air and water to pass through. The potential problems for water to enter sacred places and cause rot would still exist however.

I always wonder why some people panned the Tri-Stars when they had better use of interior space, better deck space, sailed every bit as good as the Searunners, and if anything would be easier to build than at least a solid wing deck Searunner. Neither designs were speed demons, both handled well and offered alternative designs for fast, comfortable cruising. The Tri-Stars never ever had even a small keel, something the Searunners had (at least on the plans, though mine was built without the minikeel), which would have made them even better for sitting on drying tidal areas, beaching, or even storage on land.

One terrific thing about Searunners however are the central cockpits, which are a great place to sail the boat from.

[pedcab]

I would stay away from a Piver tri. Not good boats, no resale value, horrible engineering. In a few words a waste of time and money.
.

I'm sorry for the comment but that's an awfully generalist statement, and a mighty unfair one for all those who took time and effort building their Pivers with the best materials and techniques arround.

As said before I'm the owner of a finely built 1960's Nugget, which was given to me in need of a few restoration repairs, and it has never ever let me down nor did I have any difficulties getting out of trouble where similar sized monohulls foud themselves in deep s#$%t.

I wish I was like you, Mr. Wise Guy...

[Ilan Voyager]

I'm sorry for the comment but that's an awfully generalist statement, and a mighty unfair one for all those who took time and effort building their Pivers with the best materials and techniques arround.

As said before I'm the owner of a finely built 1960's Nugget, which was given to me in need of a few restoration repairs, and it has never ever let me down nor did I have any difficulties getting out of trouble where similar sized monohulls foud themselves in deep s#$%t.

I wish I was like you, Mr. Wise Guy...

Your last phrase calls for a little answer, Mr. Very Wise Guy.

My very first multihull navigation experience was in 1969 on a Toria by Kellsal. As I'm a retired naval engineer having worked in a number of projects or boats from 2.5m to 265m, mainly warships, from the sail boat, profesional fishing boat to the warship, and in between my personal five 18m2 cats, three coastal cruising cats from 20 to 30 feet, two formula 40 cats, one 13.6 m cruising cat, three 60 feet race trimarans, and two 25 meter charter catamarans, plus some power multis, so I'm beginning to have a little idea about sail and power multis and their engineering. I'm not designer but I have some notions of design. I almost forgot, before being engineer, I was naval carpenter and loftman.

I'm happy you're happy with your Nugget, but it seems we have not the same standards about performances, engineering and seakeeping.

So the poor generalist I'm, with my little experience of multihulls, I do repeat:
PIVER TRIS ARE CRAP; bad design (V hulls are not good in multis), bad engineering and poor performers, and totally outdated by my standards, born from ñy little experience..

[pedcab]

Correction, I don't wish I was like you... I'd probably be walking instead of sailing if I was...

Fortunately that's not the case :)

PS: Congratulations on your achievements.

[cavalier mk2]

Horses for courses boys ! While the world thinks it needs warships it really does need boats like Pivers that people with carpentry skills can bang together to enjoy the water without spending a fortune. V hulls have their place, being soft riding in a seaway and easy to construct because not everybody has a ship yard. They worked for thousands of years carrying the polynesians over more of the worlds water than any other hull form in ancient time. It is great that we have new material and design options available to us but appropriate technology is a important concept to practice in a world of decreasing resources. I for one am happy to boat green by updating an older boat built of wood that is not available on todays market. I'm recycling another and planning on updates to take advantage of developments over the last few decades in both design and technology but will also take a hard look at environmental impact. To me the best thing about epoxy is how it can make the trees I use in building last long enough for replacement wood to grow. I also work with man made fibers like e glass, s glass, dynel, vectra and carbon fiber etc... where needed and appropriate but try to use them responsibly as they do not generate atmosphere for the planet while maturing into planking. I like to race and think the developments brought to all have been great but think the yacht polish has a awfully high price to go with it. I paint my boats with waterbased latex above and waterbased antifouling below because it is responsible and easily touched up after every day use. If we raced our boats in classes based upon knots per dollar we would probably see different line ups. I have had fun passing quarter million dollar cruising cats in my low dollar vintage barnstormer (they fing it very upsetting especially as I'm using old sails) but am equally cheerful when being passed by a kid or old man with a beach cat. Horses for courses ! They all have their place and can teach us all something while creating diversity on the water. So sail nice, you can always learn from the other guy if you don't close your mind to different tacks. (Go easy on those jibes!

[redreuben]

Well said Cav 2 couldn't agree more.

[FredMG]

I've had the pleasure of sailing on a Wharram up by Toronto, a 40'er I think. The owner/builder had sailed down to the Carib with his family, returned and went back to work. I did a race with him against other multi's in the Toronto Multihull Cruising Club's fleet. We had moderate wind and frankly I was very pleasantly surprised at how well the Wharram cat did without boards or fins of any kind. We didn't go maxi racer speeds of course, but this oldish home built cruising boat did just fine for a cruising boat, and held it's own nicely against the other boats, which included an open wing Searunner 31 similar to the one I owned at the time.

I think a good wooden boat made with plywood or veneer and WEST System coating, perhaps with a glass sheathing outside can be a surperb boat built with "green" in mind, and last a long time if reasonably cared for. Certainly a well built Wharram cat is easier to build than a Searunner or a Tri-Star, probably better than the Pivers, though having been a a few from about 25' to 40' they sailed okay, but certainly nothing like today's hot designs.

"Horses for courses" is a very sensible approach to take indeed.

[pedcab]

Horses for courses boys ! While the world thinks it needs warships it really does need boats like Pivers that people with carpentry skills can bang together to enjoy the water without spending a fortune. V hulls have their place, being soft riding in a seaway and easy to construct because not everybody has a ship yard. They worked for thousands of years carrying the polynesians over more of the worlds water than any other hull form in ancient time. It is great that we have new material and design options available to us but appropriate technology is a important concept to practice in a world of decreasing resources. I for one am happy to boat green by updating an older boat built of wood that is not available on todays market. I'm recycling another and planning on updates to take advantage of developments over the last few decades in both design and technology but will also take a hard look at environmental impact. To me the best thing about epoxy is how it can make the trees I use in building last long enough for replacement wood to grow. I also work with man made fibers like e glass, s glass, dynel, vectra and carbon fiber etc... where needed and appropriate but try to use them responsibly as they do not generate atmosphere for the planet while maturing into planking. I like to race and think the developments brought to all have been great but think the yacht polish has a awfully high price to go with it. I paint my boats with waterbased latex above and waterbased antifouling below because it is responsible and easily touched up after every day use. If we raced our boats in classes based upon knots per dollar we would probably see different line ups. I have had fun passing quarter million dollar cruising cats in my low dollar vintage barnstormer (they fing it very upsetting especially as I'm using old sails) but am equally cheerful when being passed by a kid or old man with a beach cat. Horses for courses ! They all have their place and can teach us all something while creating diversity on the water. So sail nice, you can always learn from the other guy if you don't close your mind to different tacks. (Go easy on those jibes!

Reasonability, at last! :)

You've hit right at the spot. My Nugget will never go as fast as a Rogue Wave, nor will I ever race the Jules Verne, but the simplicity of it's chined hull has allowed her former owner to build her to last 50 years sailing past latest generation monohulls and milionary balcony cats...

As I said in a previous post I think it is a shame and a serious lack of respect for all of us not blessed with resources to build a fancy modern rocket to have such a respectable entity of boat design, responsible for having designed an armada, generalizing that all Piver designs are rubish, especially when so many sucessfully crossed oceans time and time again...

I wonder how much of that armada will outlast a nicely built and maintained Piver, or even come close in being so respected worldwide :)

Again, if all of us thought the same most of us would probably be ashore riding bicycles instead of being on the water enjoying our crap boats...

Have fun!

[FredMG]

My oldest and best male friend owned a Piver 25 (maybe stretched to 27) when I had my 25' Searunner. It sailed fine, though he wasn't the best sailor though he thought he was. We had some nice times on his boat and on mine, including sailing out for fun weekend on Fire Island, going to a club, meeting some nice looking women there (Hey, wanna see my boat?), sleeping aboard at anchor, etc. I think my Searunner was faster, but his had solid wing decks so walking around his boat was a little easier than on mine, with trampoline side decks.
I'm very turned off by the current trend of having "pocket" cruisers starting at around 30' at a cost of $150,000 or more, and I've given up Multihulls mag, and just let my Cruising World subscription expire for the same reason.

Check out "Good Old Boat", which though mainly monohull oriented, is only about "Good Old Boats", glass, affordable, available, and as much fun as the lastest boat your high priced specialist surgeon just bought, at a cost more than double what my house costs!

[Landlubber]

pedcab,

Doubt that any of the Landlubbers would be riding a bicycle that they built themselves too mate......there is so much snobery about home made boats, yet they can be the best boats built....regardless of cost , because they all are works of passion. It takes a lot more effort to build a boat than it does to write out a cheque.....

[FredMG]

Landlubber - I ride a recumbent trike as well as sail, and there's a local recumbent club called "MARS" (Metro Area Recumbent Society) that has a few members who designed and built their own bikes. Designs include carbon fiber framed velomobiles with full fairings amongst the bikes.
Go to www.recumbents.com/mars/ and check out what members ride and what some have built. It's as cool as boats/multihulls, only different. You still get the wind in your face without a fairing too!

[DarthCluin]

Ah, bicycles. I favor a Schwinn cruiser myself, but I sometimes consider this:
http://www.rqriley.com/xr2.htm

[Steve W]

We have had 3 searunners in town in the 25 yrs ive been here and i have donr work on all 3, 2 were 31s,one was supposedly pro built in the early 70s in Michigan,it was not well built,poor plywood, glassed with polyester etc and eventually suffered structual damage,it was cut up and hauled to the landfill,the other 31 was homebuilt locally by a father and son with few skills and eventually ended up in the same landfill.The 25 i had the pleasure of repairing last year after it dragged its mooring and went ashore,now this boat was also supposedly built by a father and son in Michigan but with excellent workmanship and at 28 yrs of age apart from the damage is in as good a condition as any boat of its age i have seen,it is completly unrestored,original 2 part paint,lots of nice details, i tell this story because the difference between the first 2 and the third is in the choice of materials and quality of workmanship.I sailed on a Tristar 35 that a friend of mine built in the early 70s and it sailed well and had tons of space,unfortunatly he also did poor work and it also ended in the scrap heap. Many of those older designs were great boats that have lasted well and are much better cruisers rhan most of the higher performance boats of today,i cant even think of a modern tri id go offshore in while hundreds of the old ones are just quietly going about their business,even the Pivers.
Steve.

[FredMG]

Yeah, I've seen that web site before. I think he's an industrial designer doing a lot of cool design stuff. Carbon fiber is nice, but still very expensive.

[oldsailor7]

It's easy to Knock Piver, but hindsight is twenty twenty vision.
Piver , by writing about crossing oceans in his designs, was the greatest trimaran booster of the early days of multihull development.
He and James Wharram between them enthused huge numbers of people to build their own "Escape Machines" and go sailing.
Admittedly Pivers designs were simple , even crude by modern standards, but they worked and sailed all over the world. A lot of those people went on to build more advanced trimarans and catamarans when the second generation designs came along. Derek Kelsall made the breakthrough with his foam sandwich, round bottomed "Toria" in 1966. Hedly Nicol and Lock Crowther were in there too. My friend Dave Green built a Piver Victress, and I built a Nugget. Dave went on to build a Brown Searunner and cruised the Carrabean, returning to build the first Kraken 40,"Ringo", which subsequently set a record in the 1969 New York Bermuda race. and I built the first Buccaneerr 28.
But it was Piver who kicked it all off, and nobody can take that away from him. :D

[Tantalus]

only one choice here - Farrier's F24mII. quick, trailerable, big enough to cruise, safe, easy, quick -oops, did I repeat that?

[FredMG]

So nobody builds their own tris anymore in NZ? About 20 years while in San Francisco on business I met the Webster family in Sauslito. They were NZ farmers who built a cat over a two year period (center cockpit turned aft cockpit, forget the designer however), sent sailing to Japan, Alaska, down the Canadian & US coasts with 3 kids (who were 8, 10, and 13 when I met them). Theywere heading back to NZ so their kids could return to land based schools, have their old friends, have a more "normal" life again. Somewhere I may have photos of them along with notes from a semi-formal interview I did with them.

[oldsailor7]

Fred Said :- So nobody builds their own tris anymore in NZ?

Tell that to Samnz or Jamez, building in NZ as we speak.

[FredMG]

Duuude, it was not a serious comment, just a reply on the commercial Farrier tri. I mentioned the Webster family as they were home builders who did something very cool and wonderful - managed their farm while building the boat that took them on a 3+ year adventure with 3 young kids! How many people can claim that, or give their kids such wonderful adventures before they're 15!

I KNOW there are people home building multis in a lot of places, you've just got to find 'em.

[cavalier mk2]

Speaking of building, how about renovating ? Yesterday I saw a aft cockpit searunner 31 conversion, rough and ready on craigslist in San Diego for 2000 dollars. I like building but sometimes rebuilding/recycling can be cheaper though not necessarily faster. Then there was the unassembled one for $8000 in Vancouver B.C......

[FredMG]

Building can be perhaps the most satisfying approach of all. However, it's also the most costly and time consuming, and can easily wreck a relationship. Many marriages have come down to "me or the boat", (me being the wife typically), and in many cases the boat "won". Finding a mostly built boat to finish, or one that needs "TLC", even if significant, can be a far more practical approach time and money wise, relationship wise, and gets you a semi-customized boat (if you want to make it "yours" in a big way), plus get's you out sailing much sooner, unless of course you really enjoy the building/fixing part more (which some people find out they do enjoy more than sailing). I'm thinking of that kind of approach as a good alternative to a new boat as well as building a boat. I've found and was somewhat interested in truly cost free boats as well. - A friend who runs a boatyard had an old 21' keel sloop in his yard on a trailer, all in pretty decent shape. A little bit of TLC was needed, but not very much. He even offered to tow the trailer to a yacht club we were thinking of joining if we took the boat, while we sail it from his harbor to the yacht clubs (one harbor over). We ultimately decided (me really) that it wasn't what I wanted. I saw someone working on it late last summer and now it's gone. But it was free for the asking. If youi find a multihull needing finishing or tender loving care, and it's in a boatyard accruing bills or just taking up valuable space, make a low ball offer, or offer to take it off the boatyard owners' hands. You'd be surprised how often and how easy it can be to do just that.

[oldsailor7]

[Quote] " Many marriages have come down to "me or the boat", (me being the wife typically), and in many cases the boat "won". [Quote]

That actualy happened to the man who was best man at our wedding.
They were building an ORO and it came to a parting of the ways.
I don't know what happened to him---but she married an Italian hairdresser. :D

[FredMG]

I've met a lot of people who've built boats or fixed boats up and then lived on or cruised for extended periods on them. Some were batchelors (never met a single woman yet who did that) and the rest were families. I always felt those whose families or marriages (if no kids) stayed together had the best deals of all. I think many men (primarily) get into something that they think or hope their spouse/wife/partner will like almost as much as they do, find out that either they never really did (shame on the spouse for not being up front about it), or had mixed feelings (shame on the boatbuilder then for not being realistic and at least making sure the boat was a mutually desired outcome). The end result is either dreams that are lost, relationships that are lost, perhaps never to be found again in the saddest circumstances. With any luck each will find another partner sharing the same dream, or enough of it so it happens (we all have our doubts about lots of things from time to time), or find that they really are happier on their own, sharing their dream as little or as much as they truly want with friends, family, and significant others. Time, money, and in this case, shared or unshared dreams are what need to be considered up front, right from the start, or your dream will likely not happen the way you think or hope it will, if ever.

[cavalier mk2]

Dang it Fred, I thought sailors were supposed to have a girl in every port ! Now I learn my boat's too big to get to the town landing? What is a relation-ship ? How many hulls does it have ? How am I supposed to tie the thing up? Dreaming and doing are different things but needn't be in conflict. In fact one should lead to the other. Now I'll just take a nap and dream of vahines on South sea beaches ......

[FredMG]

Cavalier, might I be bold enough to suggest you read James Wharram's book, "Two Girls, Two Catamarans" as a primer for the kind of relation-ship I suspect you hint at. He also never had a girl in every port. He had several girls with him at all times it seems! I wonder if he designed or sailed while wearing a silk lounge or smoking jacket, ala H. Hefner, who also seems to have had girls around him more or less constantly while developing and then running his very successful businesses. I wonder if he and Wharram ever compared notes, and I ain't talkin' just music here sailor boy!
I wonder if having one girlfriend at a time (generally), and for many years now one wife (who luckily likes to sail, though I can't imagine being interested in a woman who didn't), means I coulda-woulda-mightof, but mostly didn't 'cause I was a decent sort of chap, too boat-crazed to realize the full potential of having a boat, or dain bramaged ("briney brained)?

[cavalier mk2]

First you talk about relation-ships (what kind of rig do they have?) and now I have to read a book for instructions. What kind of a sailor do you think I am? Seriously, Fred I'm a sailing single dad. I know my son must have had a mother but she ran away and joined the circus 10 years ago and so has missed all the sailing. H'mmm maybe I do need the instructions....or at least a good ad! Lets see "sail the shallows with cavalier, for the daring deep waters await and remember sailors make better.....whoops I'm supposed to be family friendly...."Yes lads and lasses, find a relationship that floats, can survive stormy seas and surreal sunsets, just remember to keep it ship shape or be ready to ship out!." Now excuse me while I look for that all girl crew.

[FredMG]

Cavalier...
You must be doing a good job if you're raising a son by yourself and still have time to even think about sailing.
Years ago in my single days I met one woman through a personal ad she had placed. No age, race, etc. info. All the ad said was:
"I love Sailing, Sailing, and Sailing. A Wench looking for a Winch."
She was around the right age it turned out, said her previous relationship ended somewhere between Martha's Vineyard and Block Island (no, she didn't get wet in the process), and was a teacher of teachers of the deaf in NY City. We went out for a while, had lots of fun, including sailing, and ultimately went our separate ways. But she was involved in sailing as much as she could, even helping with fitting out for spring, etc.
So your next girlfriend or "boat" wife is out there!
I think being upfront and a little humorous can't hurt when looking for someone who sails and isn't afraid of doing work on a boat.

[cavalier mk2]

We don't just think about sailing Fred, we sail year round putting several thousand miles under the keel every year. His mom has him almost 1/2 the time but who wouldn't rather be sailing ? Right now I am mentoring his 8th grade project which is building a redesign I did of Bolger's 12' Teal. Girls with belt sanders to the front of the line eh ? Seriously I do advise people to start sailing in anything to see if the work and reality are for them. Some are happier keeping dreams dreams and for others living the adventure is where it's at. Being willing and able to do the work to make dreams realty = priceless. Now back to talking about boats .....did wharram keep a girl in each hull and what am I allowed with three ?

[DarthCluin]

I really enjoyed that book, and I recommend it very highly. It is a grand adventure in a world that allowed you to sail from country to country without getting visas in advance. Even though you know they made it, when they discover teredos are eating through the hull of the first cat in mid Atlantic, and when the boat basically disintegrates off the coast of Trinidad, you can feel their fear. They scrape by in Trinidad, build a shanty boat, have a baby, and Jim makes enough money writing magazine articles for them to build a 40' cat. They sail home via the North Atlantic. Yikes!
If your library system can't get it, buy it direct from Wharram. Here's the link:
http://wharram.com/sales/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=73&zenid=a4d7455d08b32e3156e654451e49574c
For a contemporary's insights, try this:
http://outrig.org/outrig.org/Videos.html

[FredMG]

When I met my wife, she told me that she had been doing restoration work on the tall ship Wavertree down at the South Street Seaport in Manhattan. She had or was stripping and redoing a huge amount of varnishwork. While owning Moonraker we had relatively little varnish work to do which she really appreciated. She subsequently prefers having a boat with just a little external varnish work to do. But she's been game for such stuff, and is one reason I asked her out to lunch the day I met her, and one reason we're together a long time at this point. Girls with scrappers and sanders to the front indeed!