View Full Version : Seeking info on Tri-Star or Piver trimaran 23 to 27 Feet
Hello!
Someone mention trimaran from Tri-Star:
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/index.html
They also mention Piver trimaran (very little info available)
They look well design and I might build one if it's worth it.
I was wondering how they perform, speed, balance, design etc..?
If you are a owner or had one of these, please post some info.
Thank you
catsketcher
09-25-2009, 06:36 PM
Gday
I am a trimaranophile. I love the things. I got my first - a Piver Nugget 24ft - when I was 16. I used to bang around Sydney and close waters in it until I got a Twiggy - a 31ft racing tri in which I went cruising for two years. I jumped on every tri I could and built a 38ft foam Newick 10 years ago.
Cruising the Twiggy I started drawing the next boat. It was going to be an updated Searunner 40 (a boat I really like) I drew and fiddled and talked, learnt, and worked for one of Australia's best builders - Shawn Arber.
"How do I design a cruising tri?" I would ask him and he would shake his head
"You'd be a fool to build a tri nowadays - more hassle, less room and less resale than a cat. Build a cat"
"But tris are much nicer boats. I want a tri" I would reply
I kept on drawing my strip planked tri for another year and then one night I thought. What would a cat I like look like? I sketched up a cat with an arrangement that gave us twice as much room, much more privacy, more resale and was easier to build. I had been stubborn for years and all it took was a quick sketch.
Tris like the ones you talk about are cheap secondhand. Do not build one until you have scoured the secondhand market. A good tri is a fab boat to buy, it is cheap and a good entry into the multi market but a silly boat to make unless it is a Farrier or similar.
Scour some design sites for simple cruisers of about 26-28ft. You can find some seriously solid cruisers if you look. I for one have never ever regretted switching to a cat from cruising but if I were to sell my cat and wanted to buy a multi for just my wife and myself I would save myself about half the purchase price by buying a tri.
cheers
Phil Thompson
redreuben
09-26-2009, 08:05 AM
Like the Grainger Spoon Bays showing up in the market now, sex on floats!
boat fan
09-26-2009, 02:08 PM
Gday
I am a trimaranophile. I love the things. I got my first - a Piver Nugget 24ft - when I was 16. I used to bang around Sydney and close waters in it until I got a Twiggy - a 31ft racing tri in which I went cruising for two years. I jumped on every tri I could and built a 38ft foam Newick 10 years ago.
Cruising the Twiggy I started drawing the next boat. It was going to be an updated Searunner 40 (a boat I really like) I drew and fiddled and talked, learnt, and worked for one of Australia's best builders - Shawn Arber.
"How do I design a cruising tri?" I would ask him and he would shake his head
"You'd be a fool to build a tri nowadays - more hassle, less room and less resale than a cat. Build a cat"
"But tris are much nicer boats. I want a tri" I would reply
I kept on drawing my strip planked tri for another year and then one night I thought. What would a cat I like look like? I sketched up a cat with an arrangement that gave us twice as much room, much more privacy, more resale and was easier to build. I had been stubborn for years and all it took was a quick sketch.
Tris like the ones you talk about are cheap secondhand. Do not build one until you have scoured the secondhand market. A good tri is a fab boat to buy, it is cheap and a good entry into the multi market but a silly boat to make unless it is a Farrier or similar.
Scour some design sites for simple cruisers of about 26-28ft. You can find some seriously solid cruisers if you look. I for one have never ever regretted switching to a cat from cruising but if I were to sell my cat and wanted to buy a multi for just my wife and myself I would save myself about half the purchase price by buying a tri.
cheers
Phil Thompson
Sounds like good advice to me .Some of those older style tris may be good boats , but building one these days , well , it does not make sense .Years of work , Lots of money. Resale value ......sh1t......
They look well design and I might build one if it's worth it.
Unfortunately its not ( worth it ).
Like catsketcher said , if you don`t mind a dated looking solid boat ,
search the used market and save a bundle of gold and time and work.
At least then , if ( or most likely when ) you upgrade / update your boat you will have a better chance of recovering your money.
Ed Horstman`s boats look solid , but are now quite dated .That`s got to to be bad for resale value.. That goes for all the Pivers , Searunners and others.
Hello Boat fan!
Well, if for you building a boat is a chore, then you are right. You see, for me building a boat is as much fun as to sailing it. Sailing is a hobby, so as building it. Also it depend on the location if there are used trimaran or not. Recently I saw a piver 30' go for 12000.00. So unless I want a crappy fiberglass monohull, I'm out of luck. And last, this is a tread about INFO on certain boat model, not wether or not it's a good idea to build one.
Thank you
DarthCluin
10-03-2009, 11:58 PM
Most if not all of Arthur Piver's plans are available from the Mariner's Museum. http://www.mariner.org/library/plans_dwgs/index.php
All three of Arthur Piver's books, "Trans-Atlantic Trimaran", "Trans-Pacific Trimaran", and "Trimaran Third Book" are available used through Amazon.com. I think I paid about $25 each for them. They are mostly about the larger boats, Nimble, Lodestar, and Bird, but they also have bits about construction, sailing, navigation, and some of his smaller designs.
I purchased plans for the 25' Mariner from them last spring, and the price was very reasonable. (I haven't started it yet. I'm currently building a Dierking Wa'apa.)
The Classic Multihulls group on Yahoo has scans of a Piver catalog, partial scans of the later cabin Nugget plans, as well as some scans of the Stiletto drawings in their files section.
I think Newick's Rule applies here. Most modern trimaran designs offer great improvements in performance, but they sacrifice accommodations to do it. Materials cost is probably very similar, but sheet plywood should build faster.
DarthCluin
10-04-2009, 12:00 AM
Sorry, that link takes you to the Mariner's Museum, but this is the page:
http://www.mariner.org/library/plans-drawings
DarthCluin
10-04-2009, 08:31 PM
You might also find this site interesting:
http://fraseraerotechnologycompany.com/Marine_Division.html
Their Piver catalog scans are cleaner, the have several photos of the 25' Mariner, and pictures of an original 18' design, the Kiwi 18.
Hello Darthcluin !
Thank you for the info, but sadly I already found those site and some more.
Most peoples don't want to talk about an old design like the Piver series. It feels like they're ashamed or something. I think it's a good way to learn.
I was looking a Piver Nugget and nimble, well nugget too small and nimble is too big. I need to transport the boat on a trailer all the time. Then I saw the Tri-Star 26MT It looks very nice but it seems that very few peoples built or have these boat. So I'm here asking questions.
catsketcher
10-05-2009, 05:37 PM
Hello LucD
If it is a trailerable tri you want I would be looking at Farrier, Marples, Kendrick Woods or others. I owned a Nugget and almost bought a Nimble - I know these boats really well and they were not designed to fold from the ground up.
You can get a much better designed boat than the ones you consider that is meant to trail.
Have a look through some ads and search for a Trailertri 720. These are good little boats and may be in your price range. I would think it would take about $15 000 - $20 000 Aus to build a simple non folding Nugget today.
Beware of the claims of Piver in his books. He was a very interesting bloke but his boats were banged together and then given away. If you do modern epoxy techniques so that the boat lasts it takes a long time to seal the wood, glass external ply, oversize every drilled hole etc. You can't whack em together or they last only 10 years.
cheers
Phil
DarthCluin
10-05-2009, 07:23 PM
LucD,
From your posts, I gather that you really want to build your own boat. I looked up the the TriStar 26MT on Mr. Horstman's website, and from that I can see that you are willing to tackle complicated hull shapes.
Catsketcher named on of my favorite designers, Ray Kendrick. Check out this boat:
http://www.teamscarab.com.au/scarab8/design.html
The plans are resonably priced at $550 AU, construction is Stitch & Glue, and while the accommodations are not as generous as the TriStar, it looks very trailerable. I bet it goes like a rocket.
You might also look at this Kurt Hughes design:
http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/26tri.html
While I am not enthusiastic about the price of the plans, this boat is developed plywood, has good accommodations, is trailerable, and I bet it goes like a rocket too.
I don't know anything about the folding system on the TriStar 26MT. I had considered the TriStar 25 at one point, but then I found the Mariner plans at the Mariner's Museum. That said, I do not like the folding system on the Pivers. Arthur Piver disappeared on one of his folding designs. Some accounts claim it was a Nugget, his protege Jim Brown says it was a 25 footer (which would be a Mariner), and his draftsman Lauren Williams said it was a 28 foot Encore. They also say the boat was in poor condition, and the hinges were loose. I live on the Gulf Coast, and if I build a Mariner, it will be with fixed beams. I figure if you don't have hinges, they can't be loose.
Two more books you might want to look at:
"The Case For The Cruising Trimaran" by Jim Brown
"Multihull Voyaging" by Thomas Firth Jones
catsketcher
The problem is that I don't have 20.000, 15.000 or even 10,000 to put on a boat. I want to build a boat because I have access to cheap price plywood, the fact that I am very handy with my hands and that I am a great scrounger.
I agree with you that any Piver has to be greatly modified to make it in today boat world. I am not yet stopped on any model.
DarthCluin
Yes I really want to build my own boat for financial and interest reasons. The 23/25 or the 26MT is not that complicated and has tons of space, but I have no idea of how they handle. I checked the Scarab8 but again no one can give me fact about the model. As you mention the space is not as grand but the handling is most likely different. I know about Kurt Hughes boats, and again, no facts from owner or the like.
Up to now most peoples want to discourage me to build, I have been on many forum and asking questions. Some were even pist at me because I didn't want to buy or agree with them their boat wasn't the best in the world.
In my area, multihull are very rare, it's a monohull kingdom. I could get a mono dirt cheap (probably where all the fitting and mast will come from for my future boat).
The Piver needs many innovation to fit the bill, but it's doable. I didn't know about the 25' mariner until recently, I still know very little about it. I was looking at the 27' Chariot or 27.5 Quest and now the 25' Mariner. The AA series sound much better from the description and with modern modification, who knows. One of the mod could be putting tube a little like the Buccaneer 24 (this is a guess) but the hinges have to go.
The boat has to be trailerable and as much as possible below 1500Lbs. In my nec of the wood, sometime the bottom raise very fast because of sand, rocks or any other crap that lay there. I saw many keel get damaged or broken, for this reason, dagger board in the ama are interesting. I want to be able to leave Friday afternoon and come back Sunday afternoon for 2 or 4 persons.
jamez
10-06-2009, 02:28 PM
If you want an older style tri might be worth checking out Searunner and Cross designs. They are supposed to sail better than the Pivers.
catsketcher
10-06-2009, 04:40 PM
Gday LucD
I agree with the last post - the Searunner 25 can fold fine - again you may be able to pick one up really cheap, I did see a post on one a few years back and the guy got it cheap.
If cost is a really big problem then a simple Piver may be okay. I would widen the Nugget about 2 feet and increase the beam depth and get rid of the side decks. A simple tri can be quick to build. Peter Snell, the designer of the Easy cats, built a Piver AA 38 in 4 months. He can build fast but the boats are fast to stick together. One big reason is the lack of finicky interior furnishings.
Maybe we have this the wrong way around. LucD, why don't you have a look at the boats you can get cheap - donor boats. Then we can help advise on a design that could use the rig and deck fittings. A donor boat is a fine thing to use - I did this on my little folder.
Of course with a tri probably the ultimate donor boat is a tornado or Hobie 18. The you can use the floats, the rig and the deck fittings and all you need to build and buy is the main hull and beams. A Nugget once had a reverse donation and got the floats from an A class of all things. A good mate did this with a free surf boat and a cheap Hobie 18. He has a nice 26ft daysailer tri with little effort.
cheers
Phil
DarthCluin
10-06-2009, 08:16 PM
LucD,
The Mariner 25 is fat compared to a Nugget. Beam on the waterline compared to length on the waterline is about 1:8 for the Mariner, and 1:10 for the Nugget. This makes the Nugget a faster boat, but the Mariner a more capacious boat. The Fraser Aerotechnology website has pictures of the Mariner that Richard Fraser built back in 1970. It has two berths, a minimal galley, a settee, and a head. The Mariner's Museum has plans for both the standard version and the commercially manufactured PiCraft version. The biggest difference between the TriStar 25 and the Mariner is that the Mariner has a hard chine hull, and the Tristar is cold molded.
Any of the slimmer Pivers will be faster than Mariner, and I really don't think she is big enough to cruise four. I've seen a picture of a cabin version of the 27' Chariot, but the only drawings I have seen were for a day sailer. The 27.5' Quest and the 28' Encore both show berths for four (two doubles).
When I decided I wanted the Mariner plans, I filled out a research request and paid the Mariner's Museum $15 to look it up. They emailed me a list of the drawings available for that particular design. I picked the ones I wanted from the list. They charge a per square foot reproduction fee, and I'm not sure but I think it worked out to around $15 a sheet for 18"x24".
From the two catalogs I have seen, the AA series seems to jump from the AA-17 to the AA-31 with nothing in between, and the Pi-Craft jump from 25' to 30' with nothing in between.
Jim Brown turned his Searunner designs over to Jim Marples, and you can find them here:
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/kPlans.php#John Marples
I think in many ways Searunners were next evolutionary step after Pivers. Jim vented the wings and added low aspect ratio keels with centerboards.
Norman Cross' designs are here:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res78939/index.html
The Cross boats are sleek looking, and they have been good performers. I think the Cross 24 is the largest that is trailerable, and I believe it has a draft of around 34". I ordered study plans for the Cross 26/27 back in May, and haven't heard a peep since.
I am not pushing the Mariner. Its not the only plan on my shelf, and when I finish my Wa'apa, I might have talked myself into one of the others (though mind you except for Mbuli, the newest one of the lot dates back to 1983).
jamez
10-07-2009, 01:32 AM
Gday LucD
I agree with the last post - the Searunner 25 can fold fine - again you may be able to pick one up really cheap, I did see a post on one a few years back and the guy got it cheap.
I like this photo of the 25 off the back of 'Searunner Construction' - looks like a nice day they were having :cool:
There were a couple of articles published in Multihulls Magazine from a guy who rebuilt one and set it up for regular trailing. May/June and July/August 1994.
DarthCluin
10-07-2009, 01:37 AM
LucD,
Something you may not have looked at:
http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/merlin.htm
I know you are interested in trimarans, but you might want to look at the Woods Merlin. This is a 25' catamaran, it sleeps at least one person in each hull, and IF the plans include the cuddy, it would sleep a total of four people. I say if, because the materials list does not show materials for the cuddy. The hull can be built in cedar strip planking, which might free you from having to use cheap plywood. The boat is demountable and trailerable. The website has a video showing how it sails, and links to a page with lots of photographs and a materials list. If it looks like it might work for you, email Richard and ask if the plans include the cuddy. The biggest downside would be that strip planking uses lots of glue and a lot of sanding.
DarthCluin
10-07-2009, 01:45 AM
LucD,
Something you may not have looked at:
http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/merlin.htm
I know you are interested in trimarans, but you might want to look at the Woods Merlin. This is a 25' catamaran, it sleeps at least one person in each hull, and IF the plans include the cuddy, it would sleep a total of four people. I say if, because the materials list does not show materials for the cuddy. The hull can be built in cedar strip planking, which might free you from having to use cheap plywood. The boat is demountable and trailerable. The website has a video showing how it sails, and links to a page with lots of photographs and a materials list. If it looks like it might work for you, email Richard and ask if the plans include the cuddy. The biggest downside would be that strip planking uses lots of glue and a lot of sanding. If you are willing to take electronic files instead of paper, the plans are 275 pounds (sorry, I don't have the pound sterling symbol on my keyboard).
DarthCluin
10-07-2009, 01:48 AM
Sorry,
I meant to just edit in the price, but instead I posted it twice. My bad.
DarthCluin
10-07-2009, 07:07 AM
LucD,
Whatever you choose to build, make sure it is what you, yourself wants to build. You should feel passionate about whatever design you choose. Building even a small boat involves a lot of labor. Murphy's laws of construction apply, "Everything takes longer and costs more". You need to want it badly enough that when everything goes wrong you can still say to yourself. "I want this boat!" Then you fix whatever you messed up and move on to the next step.
Hello!
Well I am not stopped at any model yet, I even look at Proa like the HarrysProa
http://www.harryproa.com But I can't afford to spit 3.000AU just for plans.
These are the ideal requirement I have for my dream boat::D
Made of plywood/Epoxy
24 to 26 feet (maybe 27)
Must have cabin for 2 sleeping (possibly accept 4 sitting)
Big enough to spend the entire weekend for 2 (3 or 4 night) (no bells or fancy) (camping style)
Must be folding or trailerable
1500Lbs or below (as much as possible)
As fast as possible (considering the previous configuration)
Able to coastal or deeper (I sailed the St-Laurence, river and lake here and there, Great-Lake and North-Atlantic)
I looked at Cat, Tri and Proa but my mind is not set (too many model)
If possible, dagger-board in the ama instead of keel in the hull (very often the bottom come up very fast around my neck of the wood) I saw a few sail boat run their keel aground and sometime wreck their hull. It might be better to just change a broken dagger-board. I was told this can be modified on most tri.
I saw the Tri-Star 23/25 and the 26MT (I find them beautiful and out of the ordinary) but I have no idea on how they handle.
I also looked at the Buccaneer 24 (or a modified bigger version of it)
I looked more to trimaran than the other because of the safety factor when things go really bad (I had this experience in the North-Atlantic with someone in a mono-hull, the water is very cold).
Talking with many peoples on many group I got a lot of "maybe" "probably" "I bet" and "I'm sure of" but rarely fact. I don't want to put a lot of $ on maybe.
jamez
10-08-2009, 03:04 AM
Check out the Marples Constant Camber CC26. I think it fits your described criteria above and it folds on the trailer. Bit olde stylie looking but the couple of people I've talked to who built them found them straight-forward to construct and a great sea boat.
Hello Jamez
What boat did you make or have? What is your experience with them?
I ask you this because I've seen you on many forum requesting plans and asking questions.
What is the difference between the Searunner and the CC series?
Seafarer24
10-08-2009, 04:56 PM
Building method. Searunner uses a jig, CC uses a mold.
The Tristars are / were good, seaworthy boats. The Pivers just perform too poorly (they're the 3-hulled equivalent to a Wharram catamaran). The Searunners have the best layout you can find in a trimaran. I'd love to see a Tristar design with a Searunner layout....
DarthCluin
10-08-2009, 07:51 PM
From:
http://www.marinetimbers.com.au/methods.htm
Constant Camber Construction
Constant Camber is a hull moulding technique developed in USA by multihull specialists John Marples and James Brown. The hull is designed to be formed by joining a number of separate panels all made on the same curved mould, the panels being formed by laminating alternating layers of veneer or plywood strips to the necessary thickness and then consolidating them under a vacuum bag. Simply put, it makes curved plywood panels that are joined together in the same way as making any plywood boat. The method utilise only one mould, eliminates framing, and minimises finishing and fairing work.
And Searunner 26:
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery?KID=55
Seaferer24
Do you know anything about the Tristar boat model? almost no one seems to know anything (that is why I am hesitating).
I like the model looks of the 23/25 and 26MT, but are they any good???
DarthCluin
So basically, for the CC they vacuum bag layers of plywood instead o foam core.
Now I understand better why they had plywood in bag for the construction of the Rikki-tikki-tavi http://www.svrikki.net/RTT/FrameSet.html
It look like you need a ton of space to do it that way. But it look like plywood bagging is much stronger than foam. Bagging of any kind scares me a little.
jamez
10-08-2009, 11:20 PM
Hello Jamez
What boat did you make or have? What is your experience with them?
I ask you this because I've seen you on many forum requesting plans and asking questions.
In the last 6 years I've built a stitch n tape rowing skiff, done a major rebuild on my Wharram Hinemoa and currently have a Nicky Cruz 25 Tri in the early stages of construction. Prior to that I owned mono's and did all my own maintenance on them.
It took me 7 years, 30 + sets of study prints, numerous photocopied magazine articles and a load of emails to designers and builders of various cat and tri designs I was interested in before I choose a design I could be completely happy with and build without modification. I just hope it doesn't take me 7 years to build it ;)
jamez
10-08-2009, 11:39 PM
What is the difference between the Searunner and the CC series?
The Searunner is a centre cockpit design built in sheet ply over stringers and frames, The CC26 has a rear cockpit and is built in CC as described previously. The attached page is from Derek Harveys book Multihulls for Cruising and Racing (a good read IMO). The frame and stringer example is a Searunner 25, the CC example is a CC26. If your library has Dave Gerrs book 'Pocket Cruisers for the backyard builder' it has a chapter on the CC26 and another 'low frills' Marples design the Seaclipper 28.
R T Tavi certainly is a major achievment. The CC 26 and 30 are relatively simple by comparison. CC works if you can get cheap 3mm ply or veneer - you need lots of epoxy too. Then you can build all the panels in a small space. I was tempted because I had enough undercover space to build a mold and make panels and I think I could have got away with assembling it under a tarp in our summer. From memory you need 13 panels -so one a weekend over winter. In the end I went with something a little roomier and built a temporary extension to the shed.
He Jamez
Nice boat collection
Why did you pick the Cruz 25?
Thank you for the pic. The second one about hull help's to better understand each principles. My library is very limited and before I buy any other book I want to make my mind on a boat model.
So now I'm in my question and learning phase.
DarthCluin
10-09-2009, 01:15 AM
LucD,
I found some pictures of a Tristar 23 here:
http://www.themultihull.com/misc/lk1.htm
I found this discussion on Cruisers Forum:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/older-horstman-trimaran-8353.html
jamez
10-09-2009, 01:59 AM
He Jamez
Nice boat collection
Why did you pick the Cruz 25?
Thank you for the pic. The second one about hull help's to better understand each principles. My library is very limited and before I buy any other book I want to make my mind on a boat model.
So now I'm in my question and learning phase.
Thanks lucD. I don't have them all now though. The skiff I sold last year, the Wharram is for sale now, but no takers. I don't have much money in it, but lots of sweat equity. I'll get another summer before selling it for zilch.
I picked the NC 25 because it had everything I wanted (a couple of sit-up settee berths, reasonable headroom (1.7m), performance potential with a decent rig) and none of the stuff I didn't; like folding capability, an awkward interior, narrow foredeck, etc.etc. All with a material/construction method I understand. AND the designer lives across town - so no communication hassles. I'm enjoying the build but it is challenging at times, not through any idiosyncracy of the design, but just due to my own limitations. All boatbuilding is a lot of work.
Thank's DarthCluin
I also saw these for Tristar:
http://www.themultihull.com/misc/tf1.htm
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/index.html
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/specs/TRI-26MT_4view.pdf
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/album-tri/pages/TRiStar%2024%20Pat%20Webb%20UK%20%28ps%29.html
and more from other places but not many want to talk about it (none up to now).:(
LucD,
I found this discussion on Cruisers Forum:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/older-horstman-trimaran-8353.html
I was afraid that the TriStar would be a water hog because of his water line and wet are. I was wondering if a largely modified Buccaneer 24 would do the trick.
I read on this forum that some member successfully modified their B24 to 28 feet and more. I have no idea what the inside look like.
The CC26 does look nice and I read on some forum that some people forgot to lower the center board and they didn't notice the difference, Hummmmm.
DarthCluin
10-09-2009, 04:47 PM
I don't remember an enlarged Buccaneer 24, however there is a Buccaneer 28. Getting plans could be a problem though. I hate to be vague, but I think someone in the Buccaneer 24 forums had a set. That's where I snagged these images. I recall that someone else was experimenting with a redesign to try to get more room in a 24, however I think TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch) applies.
catsketcher
10-09-2009, 04:56 PM
If you think a Nugget is too small a Bucc is smaller.
There's a modified b24 to 28 feet renamed Matilda http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/22-24-trimaran-23449.html
The guy successfully made many modification to it, 28 feet, dagger-board in ama and more.
The nugget is too small in LOA and the hull if too fat if the B28 is anything like the B24, we are talking 20+ knots easy (with proper wind and sail).
I saw some report, on this forum, of B24 doing 20 knots.
The more cabin space you have the slower you go (depending on the hull).
The longer the hull is themore stable in coppy sea.
I really want to be moving in low wind. The B24 is probably too small. but properly modified, who knows.
DarthCluin
10-09-2009, 07:55 PM
I am familiar with that posting, however I don't think he lengthened the cabin, he added a long raked transom and a bowsprit. Compare the side view in the photograph to the side view in the Buccaneer 24 drawings.
DarthCluin
10-10-2009, 01:42 AM
On his early trimarans Arthur Piver used centerboards. In his books he claimed that he rarely needed to use the centerboard. On the later Mariner, Nimble, and Stiletto plans he included drawings for small fixed fins to be placed on the amas instead of a centerboard in the main hull. I have no idea if that was effective. Most of the Nimbles that I have seen out of the water have a shallow fin keel similar to the Cross designs.
In his book "Boats To Go" Tom Jones describes designing, building, and sailing his 28'-6" trimaran Hummingbird.
"Without the daggerboard, she definitely made progress, tacking in 90 or 100 degrees or whatever you like. She made some visible leeway, but threw a nice wake, and gave a lively, interesting feeling... When we put down the daggerboard, the wake disappeared. It was caused by dragging the hulls sideways through the water. Speed appeared to be less, but believe me it wasn't. In a decent wind and seaway, Hummingbird will make good better than 4 knots to windward... In ghosting conditions, she will keep making progress toward her destination when boats with inadequate leeway prevention are going straight sideways."
http://www.jonesboats.com/index.html
DarthCluin
You probably have a pretty good library.
I think you misunderstood me. I definitely plan to have a keel, dagger-board or some sort of leeway prevention device on the boat I will built.
I only mention it because it was mention in two different forum. I have nowhere near as much sailing experience as some claim to have here, but I do know my basic sailing.
If you sail without a counter leeway device, you are likely wasting wind energy and augmenting your travel time.
I heard the mention of Jones boat once or twice, but no info beside being heavy.
DarthCluin
You are saying that on Matilda, he only added L.O.A and no hull beam?
I guess it's possible just to remove some of the choppy motion.
I wonder what it really does to the design dynamic of the hull.
I think he also mention moving the ama forward.
In any case, these are big changes to a already built boat.
DarthCluin
10-10-2009, 04:22 PM
LucD,
Books are my bane. The problem with a good library is that shelf and room space is finite. When you want to add something, something else has to go. Then after you let it go you later discover you needed it. I could still kick myself for letting go of my copy of "Sailing The Farm".
In the 22-24 trimaran forum Gary Baigent comments that the stern sections rocker was too sharp and the extended stern filled it in and faired it to reduce the stern wave and eliminate transom dragging. The downside to this modification is that you have to use a spade rudder instead of the kick up rudder. Shoal waters + spade rudder + inattention or just plain bad luck = having to learn to steer your boat by trimming the sails.
bill broome
10-10-2009, 05:10 PM
don't listen to those catlovers. they are luring you into bigger boats, because, in 6-8m range, tris are better.
they fold and go on a trailer quickly, with a big saving in mooring and maintenance cost. the accommodation space is in one human sized space. you can build the central hull and add-on a 5 1/2m beach cat at big saving in time. they may even sail better, certainly just as good.
but which tri? build a 7m narrow dory, add deckhouse. won't have much resale value, no 'name', but it won't cost much either. if workmanship is good, you'll get your money back. besides, doing your own is worth a lot of money.
DarthCluin
10-13-2009, 01:34 AM
LucD,
If you are interested, there is currently a set of Buccaneer 24 plans for sale on Ebay:
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=trimaran+plans&_sacat=See-All-Categories
themanshed
10-13-2009, 03:07 AM
I think I have plans for a Tri-Star 18 that I never built. Bought them over 20 years ago.
Bill
You don't have to worry, I would never build something I don't want in the first place. As I mention before I'm gathering information.
First, I am not going to build a boat and make too many changes, it makes no sense. If someone does that it's because he didn't pick the right boat for himself in the first place.
And second, Usually these boat don't look good because they don't continue with the boat design look, like adding a square helm cabin on a 40' Piver.
DartCluin
Thank you for the information but I already have the Buccaneer 24 plans from someone here. But I keep my option and ears open until the very last minute.
Beside I'm learning about boat building, I sailed and repaired but never built one.
I bought a few books about hull shape and different techniques on building wooden boat. Hull shape is not a simple matter and is much more complicated than I first tough. I don't want to talk about hull shape in this tread. I think this tread is not going anywhere anymore except off topic. I will start an other tread and continu my learning curve.
Themanshed
Thank you for the offer but I learned that Tristar no matter on how I like the look they're too heavy for their seize and for my need and speed.
Thank you all :p :D
themanshed
10-13-2009, 07:19 PM
I know what you mean. I fall somewhat in the same boat. I worked in my collage days for lay-up shops building from molds but never from paper plans up. I've looked at all the plans over the last 20 years. I really like Kurt Hughes CM method made a lot of sense. I was going to build a 38 foot cat even looked at some finished boats. Stock went to hell and not getting any younger so I decided to build a 20 foot racing tri instead I had the stock plan modified and started building the mold planning on foam / Egass then decided to switch to carbon fiber when I found carbon for $18/yard. I will be featured in the next few days on www.smalltrimarans.com check out my work. Good luck!
Hello Mike !
It look like a very a very fast boat. Are making it entirely out of carbon?
Where did you get $18/yard carbon? There are quality, stretch etc to be considered for carbon.
What kind of quality is it? From what you're saying, it's your first build and you're starting in carbon, do you have anyone with you that knows about carbon?
From the photo, you seem to have a big team with you, unlike me.
For me it's me, my self and I for most project (on occasion, the wife pitch in).
This is why a modified Buccaneer 24 is very interesting.
themanshed
10-14-2009, 08:12 PM
LucD,
Thanks I hope to build it fast moving from catamarans to tris. Most of the boat is carbon / foam. The spar is carbon and the hulls will be carbon. The basic lay-up is 2 skins of 200-gram unidirectional 90degree carbon on each side of the 3/8th inch foam. High stress areas will have 4 – 6 layers of carbon as needed. Then there will be one outside skin of 4oz unidirectional E-Glass to protect the carbon. The bulkheads, very small on this boat, will be Triax E-Glass as the carbon I have will not add any benefit.
I found a lady in California that re-buys Carbon; end of runs, leftover from large productions, or seconds. Unlike E-Glass Carbon has a shelf life so companies like to sell off overages so they do not sit on it. She has contacts in this market. My roll was straight from the mill it was a flaw for a special order. Now get this the edge was suppose to be 1 over 1 under on the weave it was 2 over 1 under, so what? There is nothing wrong with the roll it did not have the visual that the order wanted so it was a reject. A lot of carbon is purchased for visual effect, anyway I’m happy. My website www.themanshed.net has a link to the site. She has listings of what she has access to at the time you will find an assortment of cloth types. I waited about a month to find the cloth available that I was looking for the you have to be ready to purchase as it first come $$ first serve.
I was apprehensive about carbon as everybody is until they use it. It’s just fiberglass cloth nothing mystical except the strength and cost. I did meet with Kevin Cook who built a 34’ tri from vacuum bagged carbon and another NA about carbon and vacuum bagging before beginning my project. Since I was starting out large with a 20-foot hull out of carbon and first vacuum bag project I had a few bucks and man-hours invested I wanted to make sure I had it right. It is not that bad just got to be ready and organized when it time to do it. That is why I had a crew with me. Usually I work solo on the boat with a hand from my wife or son if asked and tracked down. That is why I like the foam strip method. But when it come to lay-up time for the glass a few extra hands always makes it easier!
Good Luck with your project.
oldsailor7
10-30-2009, 02:40 AM
If you think a Nugget is too small a Bucc is smaller.
I Have to pick you up on that one Catsketcher.
I have built, owned and comprehensively sailed both the Piver Nugget and the Crowther Buccaneer 24.
The Nugget for 4 years and the B24 for 2 years.
The Nugget had only two real bunks, although at a pinch the cabin seat could be used. The B24 has three real bunks, and I understand Samnz sleeps four on weekends away.
The Nugget was a nice little boat for lake sailing, but I wouldn't have trusted it in rough water sailing. The "Hardware Store" hinges were downright dangerous. I replaced mine with 1/4" fabricated steel plate, at great expense. The deep V outrigger hulls were a pain at anchor or when power boats were passing. I can recall at least three occasions where our meals ended up on the floor. The galley was non existant, but it was the first boat where I developed the "Lidded bucket under the head of the forward bunk" as a toilet. :D
The B24 will sleep three in their own comfortable bunks, is very strong and is a superb sea boat in any conditions. It took me a year to build the Nugget.
Six weeks to build the B24. Admittedly it was my fourth plywood boat and the experience was benificial.
The Nugget was one of Pivers first designs, and is therefore a member of the "First Generation" of multihull design, considered to be from 1955 to 1966, When "Toria" broke the mold and rocketed Cat and Tri design ahead. Lock Crowther falls into the "Second Generation" with his record breaking "Bunyip' in 1966 and his subsequent line of racing and cruising Cats and Tris.
Lock designed the Buccaneer 24 to be a simple, inexpensive, fast cruising Tri which scould accomodate 3 people in comfort and safety, and have at the same time the ability to gobble up the miles effortlessly.
Of all Locks boats the B24 plans outsold ALL of Locks other designs and more importantly, more of them were actually completed.
I have built and sailed seven multihulls of my own over the years, and I look back on the B.24 with great fondness. The best Tri I have ever owned however, was the Buccaneer 28. Unfortunately the plans for it today are made of "Unobtainum". (Although I understand Tom has a set)
redreuben
10-30-2009, 03:01 AM
Well then I think Tom needs a friendly persuasive visit from "the boys" http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gifhttp://www.boatdesign.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
blackdaisies
10-31-2009, 03:24 PM
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/specs/TRI-25_3view.pdf
Here's a pdf with some nice pictures of a real Tristar 23 or 25. Most pictures available are of the 24. Thought you might like this, if you hadn't already found it.
oldsailor7
11-01-2009, 02:08 AM
Sorry about that but the Tristar 25 is a real "1st Generation " Clunker.
Heavy, underpowered and (IMO) Ugly. :rolleyes:
pedcab
11-09-2009, 03:53 AM
Hello!
Someone mention trimaran from Tri-Star:
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/index.html
They also mention Piver trimaran (very little info available)
They look well design and I might build one if it's worth it.
I was wondering how they perform, speed, balance, design etc..?
If you are a owner or had one of these, please post some info.
Thank you
Hi LucD
I've also been trying to find any other Piver trimaran owners out there, although with nothing but little luck.
I'm the proud owner of a Piver Nugget 24 built back in 1965 which I was recently given (three years ago). The previous owner, and builder, health was rapidly deteriorating and, having found himself in the eminence of having his boat abandoned, he gave it to me fully equipped with a set of North Sails, a Tohatsu 5hp outboard, autopilot, depth sounder, the works... I'm just another lucky guy...
Following the recent discovery of your post I've decided to reply in behalf of these great little boats that, mostly due to poor construction, have gained a somewhat bad reputation.
About your questions:
Safety: I've never found myself in a situation with Fulô out of which I would have managed to get out easier in a single hulled boat about the same size. The Nugget is what we here in Portugal call an honest boat: Never broaches and never misses a tack, even in choppy water, provided theres enough wind to move it. The boom rides somewhat low, but that's just something I re-learnt to live with, after all I've came from Europe dinghy sailing and I belive there's no boat with a lower boom than an Europe :)
Performance: As in all trimarans, specially older designs, don't expect it to point as high as a Snipe or as a Sharpie 12m. I'm quite happy to be able to tack my Nugget within 90º to 100º from the wind. The best angle on my Nugget is about 60º to the true wind. That way it can easily reach 12 knots in flat water if propelled by, say, 17 to 20 knots of wind. At those speeds it becomes a "wet" boat to sail with water flying all arround, but I guess that's part of the fun isn't it? Anyway, I often sail Fulô under 25+ knots of wind under full main and jib with little to report: It remais fully controlable in every situation.
Design: Being a daysailor it has a tiny cabin that can sleep two adults (and a small child or a dog): One in the bow bunk and the other in the cabin floor. Nevertheless I still prefer to fly past latest generation Benetaus and Jeanneaus at 12 knots in a 40+ year old trimaran and spend the night cooking in a portable camping cooker in a cosy little cabin than to drag my but upriver in a chunky fiberglass bunker always looking at the sounder just to spend the evening in a leather sofa watching my plasma TV and drinking eleborated cocktails :)
Here are some pics of Fulô performing:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3001/20ktupwind.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7682/emanueljordo2009i.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6959/fulp.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7435/hpim4613.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4739/pict0087v.jpg
Also, if you're interested in it, you can check out me and my father's blog (he owns a Gros Plant mini transat that he built himself) with lots of other pics.
www.utrimaran.blogspot.com
Or our photo album here (http://picasaweb.google.pt/pedro.mf.cabral/FulEAzul#)
Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you need any more advice or if you have any questions about sailing a Piver Nugget Trimaran.
Regards from Portugal
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