Question about Lively 28 Hartley plans

[blackdaisies]

Not a sailor yet, not a boat owner yet, still looking for plans even though I just bought one that I changed my mind about, maybe, but I have a question.

Sailing to avoid canals on a trimaran, are their enough routes to avoid one? Probably a dumb question, but I'm asking it anyways. I really like the live-a-board-safely of the Hartley Lively 28 plans, they look simple to build, cheap enough to make, with lots of headroom.

I've heard nothing bad about them and they are time proven older plans. Can the rig be changed to spirit rig, lateen, or gaff-rigged? It's going to be in plywood not ferrocrete. The plans can be used for either.

The boat is trailerable when dismantled with the beam 7 foot on the main hull. If I need to, I can take one piece at a time through a canal, a total of 3 pieces, but what experiences have you had at canals? What are the rules?

Sorry for the dumb questions, but I hope I will get a polite honest answer.

Thank you.

[Richard Woods]

It is a really old design. I wouldn't recommend building one. If you want a boat like that you'd be better off looking at a Cross, a Piver or a Brown Searunner. Although these are also old designs they have much better reputations and were much more successful.

Better still, look for a used boat which will almost certainly cost less than the materials for a new one.

Or even look at a newer design.

Only a few trimarans can be motored with the outriggers folded in. Don't even consider ferro for a multihull. You won't be able to move the main hull safely by water without the outriggers.

Canals vary with width (especially locks) and air height (bridges or tunnels)

Try looking at Great Circle websites if you are in the US

Good luck

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[blackdaisies]

That was a great reply. Thank you. I was using the plans for a stitch and glue plywood boat. The plans can be used for even fiberglass, also I don't want a motor in it. Sails only for cheap mooring on the water.

I found the Brown Searunner, but not the plans. Still haven't found anything on the Cross, but I did find some information on the Piver, but not plans.


They were built in 1968 or around that time? They look more modern.

I'll be checking it out. I don't want a used one, but I will also look into them. I've been given the same advice on buying used would be cheaper by others on the forum.

Thanks again.

p.s I found them adding "trimaran" not "Boats" to the names.

http://dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm

This one is a real cheap one to build. I'll check out the other sizes of the Pivers. Thanks again.

[Richard Woods]

Please don't believe those who claim their design is "really cheap to build'. It won't be.

As a rule of thumb, work out the worst possible materials cost for your boat. Then double it. And you will still be on the optimistic side.

I quote from the FAQ's page of my website

".....How much does it cost to build a boat?

It is a natural question for people to ask as cost is usually the main factor in deciding what boat to build. Unfortunately it's not an easy question to answer - different people want different levels of fit-out while obviously different countries have wildly different material, labour and overhead costs. So the best I can do is make comparisons between different boats and to give an idea of costs when building in the UK.

But before I do that it's worth pointing out that building a 10m, 3T boat with 50 sq m of sail (or 33' x 6000lbs x 500 sq ft) will probably cost the same whatever designer is chosen. That's because sail and rig costs are independent of design, as are glass, resin and plywood as they are sold by weight or area. So too are cookers, anchors, lights etc etc.

You can make a similar sort of comparison with cars. The steel in a Skoda costs the same as in a Mercedes, but the latter is ten times the price of the former! And the difference in price goes into the builders pocket and into the general public perception of "I want one of those!" So, don't be misled by those who say "my boats are cheap to build". Having said that, it is certainly possible to find designs that are expensive to build. Ones that need special one-off fittings, or use exotic materials for example.

What is really important to homebuilders though, is the resale value. I know that's not at the forefront of your mind when choosing a new design, but you will want to have your work valued by others. I read recently that someone was complaining about the high price of second hand Woods Designs compared to other designers. Now that may be bad news for those trying to buy a cheap boat, but it has to be good news for the original builder...." etc

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[PAR]

I'll second what has been said and add don't go without an engine. You'll find you will be in many places where you can't sail and are forced to motor along if you want to go anywhere. Canals are notorious for this. Also, it would be wise for you to get on sailboats now.

Get rides on any and all sailboats that you can. Your sailing experiences control and completely govern what choices, likes and dislikes are in any given type of boat that you may build. If you have limited or no experience, then you haven't any idea what you want or need. Building one of these can be a painful and costly mistake. In other words you can just as easily build a boat you don't need, want or like, then one you do. How will you know the difference until you develop some experience.

[Manie B]

blackdaisies

ALL THIS STUFF IS HORRIBLE

http://dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm

the designs are ancient - old - outdated - lousy drawings - no support

DONT DO IT






there are lots of modern up to date plans available, (search Boatdesign.net) with excellent suppport

here are multi's

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/


here are mono's and small stuff

http://www.dixdesign.com/index.html

http://www.bateau.com/index.php

http://www.glen-l.com/

i can assure you that all 4 sites i have listed have excellent support

[blackdaisies]

http://dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm

http://dngoodchild.com/5172.jpg

Most of the boats on this website you can get free on Svenson's web page and aren't worth that much.

I am not looking for a competitive looking boat. The url above is by a known and reliable boat and so was the Hartely below:


http://www.hartley-boats.com/lively28.html

http://www.hartley-boats.com/images/live28g.jpg

Both have lots of people who safely owned these boats and traveled in less than the best of waters worldwide.

Building anything at all is too expensive right now, but it's not getting any cheaper.

I agree on the boating, I am going to ride aboard some local and try out different rigs and know the difference of what I want.


I'm not arguing I know more, because I don't, but if they crossed the ocean in these, they say they are stout even in some bad weather, they are not going to fall apart on the ocean. I'm only worried about safety. Also both boats are easy to use an outboard engine if needed. The Piver being more light than the Hartley and easier to motor. If I feel the need to buy an outboard engine, I will do it, but anything in the water with an engine has to be ensured. I can leave the engine at home, bring it in as needed unless on a major trip, and still save money by paying insurance only for the months needed.

A highly electrical boat will cost me a fortune. I'm hoping to go the route of solar powered lights and a few large batteries to run the radios, some type of gas for a stove, preferably methane because it's safer to keep than gasoline and cleaner burning.

I'm not interested in a complicated design, it is a first boat. A simple boat to maintain is also what's important.

I appreciate the help, checked out all those plans before I looked into the Hartley, then found the Piver Nugget just this week. They are both within my range for ease of building, cheap enough and sturdy enough to make a reliable, but outdated boat. Surely buying a used one of either is out of the question because they are too old.

[blackdaisies]

Also the Hartley will not sink if holed in any one of its hulls. This sounds to me to be the safest. Both boats have a good chance even if damaged. Safety was what I was more interested in. A good old sturdy design is better than speed or expensive electronics that will look good, but not be useful when the boat sinks.

What about the reputation of either boat? Is there anyone who would say they are unsafe? I haven't found anything to say they wouldn't be good boats, just outdated.

[blackdaisies]

http://www.themultihull.com/piver/gh1.htm

http://www.themultihull.com/piver/images/gh_0863.jpg

http://www.themultihull.com/piver/images/gh_0864.jpg

http://www.themultihull.com/piver/images/gh_0865.jpg

http://www.themultihull.com/piver/gh1.htm

http://www.trovobarche.it/index.php?a=2&b=12277

http://www.trovobarche.it/user_images/251503_1.jpeg

These are very popular. I can't find hardly any photos of the Hartley.

[Richard Woods]

What do you really want to use the boat for?? Many people don't spend enough time thinking about the right answer to this basic question and so end up building an unsuitable boat.

The Nugget is a VERY small boat. Jim Brown sailed one to Mexico (I think the one in your photo), but he was young, tough and very experienced. And I doubt if he'd do that trip again in a Nugget.

Very few trimarans will sink if holed, all can be supported by the other two hulls, so that isn't a feature unique to the Hartley.

Also worth remembering is that these days the waters are much more crowded than when Piver and co were building/designing boats. So, for example, you now want boats that are manouverable in close quarters, have an engine designed in from the outset, not an afterthought.

If the Nugget interests you then you might like my Strike trimaran.

I wrote earlier that no boat was cheap to build.

My Strike cost me under USD2000. I bought a beach cat for CAN600 (say USD550). That supplied the rig and outriggers. I bought 10 sheets of plywood and 10kgs epoxy for the main hull, cost under USD1200

Maybe that is a good route to go, especially if you haven't built a boat before. At the very least you can always resell the beach cat.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[catsketcher]

I had a Nugget when I was 15 (now 42) and it never really gelled with me. I didn't really like to big flat float decks and the compromises from the early design. That being said I really like simple boats. Its just that we can do them much better now with the incredible benefit of hindsight. Any idiot can design a better boat than Art Piver because we can see what has worked and what hasn't.

Richard's Strike tri is a good example of a newer simple boat that is clever with its use of secondhand materials - I did much the same for my little folder - I got a used boat (this time a 16ft skiff which I used for its rig and gear) A mate did even better by getting a cheap Hobie 18 and a free surf row boat and made a great tri cruiser for about $2000.

It had modern chainplates, modern sails and was faster, safer and more commodious than the Nugget. Don't get me wrong - I may one day find an old Nugget and try and do it up super well but I have a thing for multihull history. As to the Sparkle - you could do better with a more modern tri like the Seaclipper 28 or a cat of about 28-30ft.

Get off the net and down to the sailing club. You can't work this out with logic alone. You need experience and sensation to make the project work for you.

cheers

Phil

[catsketcher]

Yeah Richard the tri in the photo is of Jim Brown's tri - Juana. He and his (to be) wife sailed down to Mexico in it. According to Brown it was probably the first ocean voyage in a modern trimaran - circa 1958.

The flat float decks are not yet part of Piver's design and the crossbeams are there instead of wing decks. She was also covered in fibreglass which was pretty revolutionary at the time.

About a year later Piver took Nimble to England and the rot began!

[blackdaisies]

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/Strike.htm

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/ASSETS/strike%20bcms.jpg

Is this the right one? This looks like a nice little boat, but the Hartley 6'3" headroom was the one I wanted more. I don't expect to find a lot of pictures of it because it was a concrete boat. I want to build it in marine board if possible.

Your quotes are pretty good, so if I shop around I agree I might find more deals. Two dories would make a nice catamaran, they can be sailed separately, and might be better to live on, but how do you know if you can use them as catamarans?

I want a live-aboard. I don't think I would consider having the Piver 24 accept it's trailerable. The main point is that it should be trailerable, safe on all types of waters, and not necessarily inexpensive, but definitely there are inexpensive boats that do well and money is a factor, and bare bones styles. I don't need a refrigerator, cable, and a pool table in my boat. The lights should fit the bare minimum situation, but be efficient. It's the electronics and things I don't want too much of. A simple boat, that is all I'm explaining, but no cheap death traps.

Tennessee does not do a lot with trimarans. They are into speedboats or pontoon boats. The only reason I don't want a pontoon is because if the boat is moored, it will still be exposed to bad weather whether I'm in it or not, and it should be able to withstand some waves. It is tornado weather here, and I'm not rebuilding or buying every time the weather gets too bad before I can get the boat out of the water.

Tennessee is all protected water with access to the Mississippi, in turn the ocean where I would love to sail to. Space is a factor because some of the water ways get narrow, so I see what you mean by space. It is something to consider. I might never get it to the loop due to narrow waterways.

What v-dory boats can be used as a houseboat/catamaran, but how do I know which one to buy that will hold the catamaran weight? I saw one created for motor boats, but can a boat designed for a motor boat be used for a sailing catamaran?

http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_labr.html

http://www.spirainternational.com/pic_labr.jpg

http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_puge.html

http://www.spirainternational.com/gl_puge.gif

http://www.spirainternational.com/gl_ches.gif

[blackdaisies]

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yachts2435.htm#DRAGONFLY

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Dragonflyd1.gif

I've come down to the conclusion the only thing I am looking for is a boat with amas or outriggers. They can be stackable along side of the boat until used and would be perfect with this design, that I picked already 5 times, but changed my mind.

It's long, narrow, a nice size cabin, safe on rough waters, but even better with outriggers.

What about outriggers? Is there any designs available for bigger boats? Narrow canoes or kayaks? They don't hold enough weight. What about a small catamaran used for its amas?

[uncleralph]

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yachts2435.htm#DRAGONFLY
.
.
.
It's long, narrow, a nice size cabin, safe on rough waters, but even better with outriggers.

How do you conclude that it would be better with outriggers? A monohull is not made better by simply making it into a trimaran. In fact just the opposite is true. I think you would run into all kinds of problems making this boat into a multihull. For instance:
1. The boat has 2,000 pounds of ballast, which you neither need or want in a trimaran. When you eliminate the ballast the boat will no longer be floating on its proper lines.
2. The structure is not designed to take the concentrated loads of the cross beams.
These are just two examples. I am sure there are many more complications.

If you like the boat and it fits your needs, build it as designed. It will not be made better by adding training wheels.

[boat fan]

How do you conclude that it would be better with outriggers? A monohull is not made better by simply making it into a trimaran. In fact just the opposite is true. I think you would run into all kinds of problems making this boat into a multihull. For instance:
1. The boat has 2,000 pounds of ballast, which you neither need or want in a trimaran. When you eliminate the ballast the boat will no longer be floating on its proper lines.
2. The structure is not designed to take the concentrated loads of the cross beams.
These are just two examples. I am sure there are many more complications.

If you like the boat and it fits your needs, build it as designed. It will not be made better by adding training wheels.


OOOH BOY !!!!!!

Please take note of the quoted post. All true and damned good advice for free.:D

[PAR]

blackdaisies
Not a sailor yet, not a boat owner yet, still looking for plans

Before designing boats, or in this case re-designing them, it would be good advise to get aboard a few, sail them, develop a clue about how they work and why things are done the way they are, don't you think?

[kim s]

Blackdaises,

I think I am possibly the only one on this forum who has one of these boats.
I bought dirt cheap as its rotten and have now replaced 60-70% of the ply plus quite a few stringers , deck beams etc.
I cant tell you about it cos I aint sailed it yet, but (and I dont mean to put dispershuns On your boat building ability) looking at the construction and the time required to build it, I would say you would have to absolutly certain that it was one of these boats you REALY REALY wanted.
Its deffinatly dated and there are no doubt a Lot better boats out there.
I bought it cos it was cheap. by the time I have finished re-building it will cost me approx £4000 and thats before I buy new sails.
4 grand and a lot of hours labour I could possibly have built something far better, who knows, I dont care, cos I am having fun doing this one, so I view it 4 grand and a lot of fun and I end up with a 28 ft tri. never break any speed records but as long as its quicker than same sized uni-hulls :P :P RESULT:D :D :D
Yes I know all you proffesional building guys will be choking on your coffee, and shaking your experienced heads collectivly, but, hey I have saved a nice old boat, give her a new lease of life etc etc.
Seriously though Blackdaises, of all the things other guys have said ,
learn to sail, go on as many different craft as possible, make a list of what you and your partner/famiy want out of the boat (standng head room, seperate toilet, hot/cold running water/ jacuzzi, full length bath, 3 doulble cabins, pool table, champagne bucket, gold plated taps etc etc. and you will find that very few boats will actaully fit the bill.
Good luck in your hunt and enjoy the hunt as well as the build/sail.

Kim

[blackdaisies]

http://www.catamarandesigns.com/images/transformer.png

http://www.catamarandesigns.com/lotek.htm


This seems to be very new, trailerable, and I certainly don't want gold plated toilets, etc., I just want headroom and a safe easy to build multihull. Trimaran plans are limited, but catamaran above is trailerable and easy to build. Key words trailerable, head room is icing on the cake.

I found a nice one one from the urls on the other page made by Wood designs that are trailerable.

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

The cost is important, but safety is best in mind, a proven safe boat, not like the new one above, but it's just a question about it, if it's safe. I really feel a multihull is safer if it can be disassembled in the water if it turn upside down, it floats safer on mulithulls, gets better speeds, and can take down to fit a regular slip. Catamarans are not as attractive, but they work better by my opinion.

Million and millions of islanders who sailed the oceans in groups of canoes can't be wrong either. They made it safe on cheap safe little boats put together by beams. I don't want an islander canoe, but my point is if a canoe can become a great safe source of sailing even then, the modern multihulls have to better than a monohull. Islanders were great sailors.

The concept is cheap, so are most multihulls to build, cheaper than a monohull. Save money and get better buoyancy, plus safety, so I just want a cheap non decorational multihull that is trailerable. The issue of head room came up with the Piver because that is way too small, but a good boat. The original design I mentioned from Hartley is a boat known for traveling around Australian waters very efficiently. The picture is of a wood version. I wrote the owner of the site to ask more about it. I don't see how you might think it would be dangerous when so many boats were built with no major complaints, but no photos available.

It's cheaper is not the Hartley's best feature, it's the headroom and it's good reputation. I'm trying to find a boat without so much expensive electrical work. I want a sailing only vessel to keep cheaper on the water, no insurance needed unless their is a motor on the vessel. I do want some electrical, but not the newer designs who basically build a house in a boat. No electric washer/dryer, no jacuzzi, just headroom and simple electrical.

Kim S, which one of the boat are you talking about, the 30 footer from Selway or another, the 28 foot Hartley? I would expect rebuilding a boat would be more expensive than buying a new one, which is why building one would be better. I could buy a lemon that would sink the next day due to termite damage. Wood is easily damaged. I know what I'm getting if I build the thing myself.

How about the low-tec design at the beginning of this post? What is your opinion of this?

[kim s]

I have the Hartly-- Lively 28 or Sparkle seams to be the other name.

I am strugling to see how you say rebuilding is more expensive than new build.
OK I understand that the time to remove the old rotten bits and make pattens etc etc can be HUGELY time consuming. as far as material cost though I have the mast , rigging, the frames are all there. but a seaworthy hull is only approx 10% of the total cost of the boat. with a multihull these numbers are different.
I understand the idea of a" back to basic" boat, I too am going the low tech way if possible. but ---hey--- hang on. 2 decent stainless oil lamps (cheaper than brass) £80.00. ropes for the mast £400. New main track £250. Echo sounder £100 (i need one where i sail) new galley cooker /water pump £150 at a jumble sail. New forhatch £200. thats before I even start costing the sails new standing rigging. I still need tramp nets pullys/ blocks/ cleats/jammers/fenders/shorelines/anchor lights/nav lights oohhh the list is endless. if you buy a secondhand boat hopefully a lot of these bits will be on and just require a clean and rebuild. yes you do have to sort out the main hull but at least that has had all the design issues and the badly drawn plans and the vague instructions allsorted out.
I think as I am writing this I am not sure if I am convincing you are actually convincing myelf I have done the right thing.
what ever you do----- go for it

Kim s

[blackdaisies]

http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/price_order.htm


http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/album-tri/images/TRiStar%2024%20Pat%20Webb%20UK%20(ps).jpg


http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/specs/TRI-25_3view.pdf

This one might be found being they are very popular and I see what you mean, but buying a used one, stripping it, putting old stuff in new wood hull, would still mean building the hull.

No doubt you did the right thing, but they probably are not found in Tennessee, USA. I'm on the loop in Tennessee, where sailing isn't as popular especially in a trimaran. I doubt they would no what to do with a funny looking boat like a trimaran.

I like the tristar ALOT! It looks safe too and doable for what I want, but in the 25 foot range for the 2 extra feet of space.

Thanks for the list of things to look for in a boat!

You say oil lamps, but not the cheap ones at a Walmart store for $15.00? Also what about building those little outdoor lights with a solar panel in-built in the roof of the boat? You have the on and off switch on the inside, but the solar panel on the outside:

http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/38435/6h/www.improvementscatalog.com/images/en_US/local/products/248x/274700zz.jpg

http://www.improvementscatalog.com/home/improvements/30753-bronze-color-solar-accent-light.html

[kim s]

when you say $15 dollers for an oil lamp I gues you mean the "hurricane" type. if they are the same thing as we get over hear for £5-£10----DONT

I had one given to me and I stupidly put it on the boat.
They are made of tin and rust very quickly around the bottom. the rust stains are one thing, but its the oil stains from the leaking tank that really gave me grief. It got every where as I did not realise where it was coming from. If you buy one, make sure its a proper one not a cheap copy.
I dare say some one will have found a way of stopping them rust. but me ---never again. sails, covers, fender socks,ropes. everything that was in the cockpit locker.
I am not sure about led for long evenings inside theboat. (I am in ukso weather not consistan) the light is a bit harsh. dont get me wrong I like them and will be fitting led stuff on the boat, but main lighting is going to be oil. ---task lighting---led.
Good luck on the hunt

Kim

[blackdaisies]

That is a good way to keep it simple, but just guessing on the hurricane lamps. There are brass ones available within the price range you said first off, but some cheaper.

The led light above will last 8 hours in one charging, but 2 or 3 in one cabin means once charged they will give up to 24 hours. There probably are other boat lights available for this.

Have you ever heard of solar powered navigational lights? How about the likelihood of a methane run generator on a boat? It might be a little more weight? Is methane available at local boat mooring gas tanks?

Strider - 24ft Classic Micro

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/studyplans%20website/Strider/sail4_files/stwoodsexpress1.jpg


http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

What about this? Is this more up to date than any of the others?

[boat fan]

This seems to be very new, trailerablehttp://www.catamarandesigns.com/lotek.htm

That 50 footer , " trailerable " ? No not really.
Transportable after considerable effort to dismantle it ? Maybe...........
Costly to move which ever way you look at it ? Definately !

I really feel a multihull is safer if it can be disassembled in the water if it turn upside downIn a cruising boat size ? Are you Superman ?
That would be a costly salvage job at the very least. Even then it`s likely you would lose the rig....

gets better speeds, and can take down to fit a regular slipMost cruising cats out there are not faster than a fast mono.

Reason : Most are over loaded .They are only fast when LIGHT.

It takes considerable discipline to " stay lean " ( light ) with a multi , it can be done , but the reality is most are weighed down. Ask the folk who cruise on them.

In light air they can be slower than a mono .( Higher drag ) and slower to tack.

I don`t know what you mean when you say " take down " to fit regular slip , but it suggests hinges or sliding tubes etc. to reduce beam. That alone will be more costly.
If you hinge the beams , they will need to be engineered to cope with considerable loading.If you want to reduce overall width , with sliding tubes , its a big chore every time you " park " in a slip.

Million and millions of islanders who sailed the oceans in groups of canoes can't be wrong either. They made it safe on cheap safe little boats put together by beams.They often had drownings actually.
Not all " made it safe on cheap safe little boats put together by beams."

Islanders were great sailors.
Yes they are / were..........But they also lost craft and crew in the past.

The concept is cheap, so are most multihulls to build, cheaper than a monohull.Most Multihulls are more expensive to build than any equivalent mono.

Build a very basic Wharram for example , the cost may surprise you , and I`m am talking BASIC !You can build a mono for the same outlay , more likely for less.


Reason: Example : A cruising catamaran : A lot more surface area .
More " structure" ( beams , bridge deck , dual rudders ,dual " keels" or dagger boards , etc , etc.....Bridge deck .......
Even down to paint , or glass sheathing ....surface area again

Having said all that .....I like cruising cats and tris , ....better than a mono ....but cheaper ....no way !!!!!

Don`t be put off by what appears to be my negative comment , it`s not meant to be blackdaisies , I sincerely hope you get you dream boat , but
there are issues with a cruising multihull that you should not under estimate.

[boat fan]

Also what about building those little outdoor lights with a solar panel in-built in the roof of the boat? You have the on and off switch on the inside, but the solar panel on the outside:

Yes that can work....have seen a 25ft wharram with them.
The young lad had solar " garden " lights all around the bridge deck .
Worked like a charm.;)

10 pack .....$ 3.00 each :D

[Manie B]

We already have one poster that is having problems getting detailed plans after he laid out good bucks

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/gato-especial-catamaran-adventures-30097.html

read my post #9

now you have this at the bottom of the page

CATAMARAN DESIGN KNOWLEDGE BASE

hull types hull materials construction techniques sail rig types seaworthiness
coming soon coming soon coming soon coming soon coming soon



http://www.catamarandesigns.com/index.htm

jeez guys please start reading a bit more carefully BEFORE you order plans


here is a VERY GOOD TIP

you want cat plans go here (and no he is not my uncle)

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

good solid reliable excellent track record - MANY to chose from


you want small runabouts and lots more go here

http://www.bateau.com/index.php


there are others but these two come out tops - time and time again

[boat fan]

Strider - 24ft Classic Micro

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/studyplans%20website/Strider/sail4_files/stwoodsexpress1.jpg


http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

What about this? Is this more up to date than any of the others?

Yes nice boat. Good designer too.



If you want a good minimalist multi , this is certainly worth a look too :



http://www.harryproa.com/harry.htm

[/URL][URL="http://www.harryproa.com/Builders/BainRobertson/imagesJan2007/small/head.jpg"]
(http://www.harryproa.com/Builders/BainRobertson/imagesJan2007/small/galleyFromMainCabin.jpg)

[guzzis3]

"Blackdaisies",

Please listen to what Richard Woods has said. The ideas your sharing are quite common to people new to multihulls, and if you follow some of the ideas you have expressed you'll end up well out of pocket and with a disapointing result.

I have the hartley plans, and know some people with them. They are not bad boats, but they like all your options are limited by your expectations.

As Mr Woods said you really need to asses your expectations, quantify them properly.

You mentioned live aboard. Full time ? You mention trailering. The hartly could be made to trail. I worked out you could make it fold telstar style and get it under 8', but be aware that launching and recovering a boat like that is not trivial.

Cost and ease of build ? I can assure you that any multihull of a given weight, fitout and finish will cost almost exactly the same in a given build method. What that means is any design built in plywood that weighs say 1 tone will cost pretty much the same as any other 1 tone in ply. Also someolder designes can take signifigantly longer to build than more modern designes. How much is your time worth ? Remember that hartley will take at least 1500 hours to get on the water. Think hard about how much time your able to spend each week and you'll soon see your going to be building for years.

Personally I really like Mr Horstman's stuff, he's a very clever man and I believe an aeronautical engineer. You might also consider Mr Kendrick's Avalon 9 design. Search on Kendrick trimaran or Team Scarab. Of course Mr Farriers F32A would do everything you want, but it'll probably cost more than you can afford. The F82A and Kendrick scarab 8 are both smaller and thus cheaper alternatives.

Please don't buy plans from catamerandesignes. I don't know of anyone who has anything good to say about them. Mr Waller has his coral coast 25 which is demountable, and of course you've found Mr Woods site. If you want something more stylish Mr Wharram has a range of self build catamarans in the polynesian style. For smooth water you might consider something like a jarcat J6.

Plans represent about 1% of the build cost. Cheap plans are a false economy. Please don't underestimate how much a modern well supported set will save you both in money time and anguish.

[blackdaisies]

I will buy the Strider 25 from Woods, but I just now started buying for my little 16 foot pocket cruiser, so I'll start and finish it before I build something bigger and more expensive. I bought the plans for the Grey Swan on SelwayFisher, but it's a monohull. I really wanted a trimaran. A nice one would be light and easy to sail. Balance and safety would be the main reason to get a trimaran/catamaran for new sailors. I just thought for safety reasons it would be better.

I bought those plans a few months ago, but am just now getting to shop for supplies. In all the safety issue is if the multihull turns over, it will be the least safest. I'll go with that, but get the plans for Woods Strider in a few months to keep for when I get my first boat done. It's not a tri, but a good catamaran, so that is great.

Any thoughts on buying wood? My local hardware store doesn't carry marine plywood, is it good to build boats with regular 3/8 inch plywood or is there a way to treat it? I can order treated wood, but would rather buy it locally.

Thanks for all the great advice and help. As far as turning any boat over that is larger than one person can handle, I've been reading about torch and a small rowboat out about 50 or more feet with a rope attached to one end of the hull and might be able to right one section of a catamaran or trimaran at a time, but not a boat 50 feet long. A daggerboard on each side of the small boat would help stabilize it while I pull. Leverage can do great things. I also read how you can use your mast to pull up a heavy portable outboard motor with a single person.

The Avalon 9 is the most modern affordable pattern I've seen. Some are in the thousand dollar range, and I didn't want to go that high for boat plans. The avalon is more expensive than what I wanted, but it would be the most modern and probably the best choice. I'll try the Strider and if in about 5 years I want something more modern, I'll get the Avalon 9. I don't see too many people making any new tri plans, so in about 10 or so years, the plans we see now will mostly be the only ones available.

If you want to know of live aboard situation, I'm a caregiver for elderly people, and sometimes it may be live-in. In a different type of job in Virginia, I got in a fight with my roommates and ended up calling home to move all the way back to Tennessee, had no where in Virginia to go, so the next adventure where I move away from home, I'll have a backup plan. Sounds strange, but it would have made a world of difference then to have had one for temporary living arrangements. If you haven't figured out yet that I'm an indecisive female, with lots of brothers, uncles, and a father who can do woodworking, and this is my first adventure in boat building. Even a female should be able to build this small easy to build boat, if not, I can get lots and lots of help from family. Plus there isn't a lot of work in the small town I live in and Nashville is near enough by that it would be perfect to keep a small boat there while I work and then come home to visit in it.

Thanks again and thanks for the great boat urls Guzzis 3, Boatfan, Manie B, and everyone else if I missed your name.

[guzzis3]

Ray Kendrick has a 16' trailerable trimaran with a small cabin, he also has 18 and 22 foot tris, all trailerable.

Buy your plywood from a plywood specialist and if you can buy it all at once. Ring aorund and you should be able to negotiate good deals, much cheaper than the stuff from the local hardware. Don't use heavier ply than the designer says to, multihulls should be considered like aircraft. Safety comes from lightness not strength.

Don't worry about capsize. A careless crew can sink the bigest and safest boat, while a careful crew can sail the oceans in a small narrow boat.

You might also consider the jarcat J6 and J5. 8' mini bridgedeck catamarans, trailerable, very safe as along as you shorten sail early, the J6 in particular is often used as a small caravan on the trailer for 1 or 2 people. If you can get a spot in a trailer park you could use it as accomodation. The kendrick 22' trimarans would do that also but they are dearer to build and more complex.

Good plans can be expensive but they can save you more money than they cost.

[DarthCluin]

When I was looking for marine plywood, I found these sites:

http://marine-plywood.us/Links.htm
http://boatbuildercentral.com/plywood/index.php
http://www.tritonlumber.com/marinelumber.html
http://www.qualityplywoodspec.com/

The first link, marine-plywood.us is in Vickery, Ohio. The second link is in Vero Beach, Florida. I have not done business with either of them, but their websites say they ship nationwide. They both give nice discounts if you buy in quantity.

I'm in Florida. I bought the plywood I'm using for my Wa'apa from Quality Plywood. They would not sell to an individual, but they set me up with one of their regular distributors, and they gave me a discount even on a ten sheet order (3x4mm & 7x6mm).

Talk to your local lumber yards, especially the ones near boat stores and barge construction sites. Stores like Lowes and Home Depot will generally have clear douglas fir, but the only marine plywood they seem to carry is 3/4" douglas fir (much to heavy for a small multihull).

For tools and supplies you cannot get locally:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/main.do;jsessionid=D0F9CE0B062540A1E45623F15702DCFC.ajp13w
I bought a WEST System scarphing tool and stainless steel ring nails from them.

A word to the wise from an experienced construction estimator...allow for waste. I reccommend getting 10% more material than what you need, and round fractional totals up to the next full sheet. In other words, if you need 28 sheets, buy 31. If by some miracle you don't need them, build a dinghy, or a china cabinet for your wife.

Keep your reciepts. Check your state government website for rules governing the registration of homebuilt boats. If Tennesee has a state sales tax, they will probably want you to pay sales tax on any materials used in the boat that you did not pay sales tax on by buying locally.

Enjoy the build!

[boat fan]

Good luck Blackdaisies ,

The Grey Swan is quite a nice choice for a small sailer.
It`s actually a " BIG " Small boat. What I mean by that is that for its length it has quite a bit of volume.At 300 lbs ballast it has 25% ballast
ratio which will make that boat considerably more stable than a 16 ft unballasted dinghy.

You won`t easily right any multihull beyond beach cat size. Even those can be a handful under the right ( or should that be wrong ? ) conditions.
A lot depends on your physical fitness ,you physical size . ( more importantly weight actually ) experience , sea state , prevailing winds etc. and the boat itself. If you turn over a larger cat or trimaran , you were usually careless to capsize in the first place , although its more likely during high wind strengths.Under those conditions the water will likely be rough and it can make righting the boat MUCH more difficult.If the mast and sails fills with water , the boat is now much MORE stable totally inverted , than right way up ! You would require considerable help.You can easily lose an inverted multihull if it is blown onto a rocky lee shore....

Like gussies says , if your`e careless bad things can happen...BUT ,if you sail conservatively , and shorten sail EARLY , you will get better and more experienced .In time , you will get to know your boat and reef almost as if by instinct. It`s all doable.Invite people on your boat that can sail.They will help you.

I would like to think that we here are not sexist enough to believe a lady cannot build a boat. Has been done many times before before , and will be again. I won`t speak for the others , but I believe that you can do it. Sounds like you have plenty of help , close at hand too.Build a boat like you " eat an elephant " ....with small " bites " at a time. It`s nice to see that you purchased some good plans for your first build.That was smart. If you get stuck , just ask.

Best of luck !