Outboards 2009 - HP, Weight, Make Comparison

[rwatson]

Just did a chart of motors between 20 and 150 hp, with weights, by make. Thought I would upload it in case anyone is interested.

[ririzarry]

Very helpful...

Thanks,

Rob

[Fanie]

Interesting to note up to a 60hp the weight remains relative low, then it shoots up by quite a bit. The remaining factor to consider is the price...

[rwatson]

Interesting to note up to a 60hp the weight remains relative low, then it shoots up by quite a bit. The remaining factor to consider is the price...

Wish I could get some prices - they seem to be "secret distributor business".

Varies so much from country to country too

[Fanie]

I hear some good things about these Tohatsu motors.
Some prices under the specification tabs here - in US$
http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/index.html

[rwatson]

I hear some good things about these Tohatsu motors.
Some prices under the specification tabs here - in US$
http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/index.html

I just put the Tohatsu specs on that chart.

You are right, they have a very good weight/power ratio at least

[Itchy&Scratchy]

I may be wrong here, but I think Tohatsu are made by Yamaha.
J

[mwatts]

I may be wrong here, but I think Tohatsu are made by Yamaha.
J

No Yamaha's lower end brand is Selva. Tohatsu's are built by Nissan. I don't know if they are 1:1 the same though.

@RWatson: Did you compare identical motors? Because long shaft / short shaft, tiller / no tiller, powertrim yes / no, dryweight or ready-to-run all make a difference in weight. Otherwise it's like comparing apples & pears.

For instance, if I look up the 2009 specs for a Yamaha F20B, I see it weighs 51.7 Kgs, not 61, and an F30 83.8 Kgs, not 99.

Are the Tohatsu's in the chart the 4-strokes or the 2-stroke Direct Injected (TLDI) engines?

[rwatson]

All the 20 hp are the same weight with prop, and they *are* 61 kg There are four F20B models, and they all weigh the same,. Weight is quoted as Weight (kg) with prop. 51.7 ~ 60.7 , which I take means around 51-61 kg, so I pick the highest

http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/marine/index.htm?marine.asp

Yamaha 20 HP (4 Stroke)
Model Weight with prop (kg) Transom Height MM
F20BEPL 60.7 508
F20BEHPL 60.7 508
F20BMHS 60.7 381
F20BMHL 60.7 508

There are 4 F30's quoted (not one) and the weights are not 83.8 kilos
http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/marine/index.htm?marine.asp

F30BEHTL 104 536
F30BEHTL 104 536
F30AEHTL 95 533
F30AETL 90.4 533

so the average weight is 98.35 (99)

There is no quoted dryweight V "ready to run" figures I can see, unless you add the Oil Pan Capacity (2 litres) which is just nit picking. Tiller arms are not significant.

You have to assume powertrim is within the maximum weight for the small engines, and standard on all engines over a certain size ( maybe thats why the jump in weights over 30, and weight range for the low enders)

All updated figures with web site addresses and features are welcome though. I am happy to check all figures in the chart as it makes it more usefull to everyone

[tom28571]

The main thing you point out with these charts is that it is wise to look at the actual specs of motors rather than listen to general beliefs on the weights and power of outboards. Some 4 strokes are heavier than 2 strokes of the same "rated" power by only a couple percent.

What the actual developed HP of these engines is, is not often known so accuracy of comparisons suffer.

Mid power range Suzuki 4 strokes are much heavier than their counterparts from other manufacturers. They are also much higher displacement than their counterparts so do we trust the power ratings? A Suzuki 60 is over 45% heavier and 25% greater piston displacement than other similar engines. This does not look reasonable. Apparently the Suzuki is highly detuned and derated. Where weight is not a factor, the Suzuki 60 looks like a rugged engine.

[rwatson]

rather than listen to general beliefs on the weights and power of outboards.
.

Hmm, can we not trust the facts quoted by manufacturers ? They get validated by lots of different people. I wouldnt have thought they would fib much.

Some 4 strokes are heavier than 2 strokes of the same "rated" power by only a couple percent. .

yes - whats the point you want to make ?

What the actual developed HP of these engines is, is not often known so accuracy of comparisons suffer..

I really am not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain more please ?

Mid power range Suzuki 4 strokes are much heavier than their counterparts from other manufacturers. They are also much higher displacement than their counterparts so do we trust the power ratings? A Suzuki 60 is over 45% heavier and 25% greater piston displacement than other similar engines. This does not look reasonable. Apparently the Suzuki is highly detuned and derated. Where weight is not a factor, the Suzuki 60 looks like a rugged engine.

No - its only the 60 that is "much heavier"
The Suzuki 60 is 1298cm Displacement, and weighs 160 kilos, way over comparable motors. I cant think of when weight isnt a factor, but I would be interested in how the weight makes it more rugged. I have no experience with that engine.

The reverse is true for the larger powered motors

for example

Suzuki
DF 90A/80A/70A 4 Stroke
Multi point Sequential Electronic Fuel Injection
Maximum Output: 90hp (66.2kW) / 80hp (58.8kW) / 70hp (51.5kW)
Cylinders: In-line 4
Displacement: 1502cm3 (91.6 cu. in.)
Weight kg: L: 160
X: 164

Yamaha
NEW F80BETL (4 Stroke)
Engine Type 16-Valve Direct Action Inline 4 Cylinder
Displacement cm³ 1595
Bore x Stroke (mm) 79 x 81.4
Output (hp) 80
WeWeight (kg) with prop. 172 ~ 181

Here the Yamaha has a bigger displacement than the Suzuki, and weighs more. It looks like the Suzuki 60 is just a detuned 90/80/70 . is this better or worse ?

All thoughts appreciated.

[mwatts]

All the 20 hp are the same weight with prop, and they *are* 61 kg There are four F20B models, and they all weigh the same,. Weight is quoted as Weight (kg) with prop. 51.7 ~ 60.7 , which I take means around 51-61 kg, so I pick the highest


No, it doesn't mean they all weigh same. It means Yamaha has been a bit lazy, and the short-shaft manual-start 20HP weighs 51.7 Kgs, and the long-shaft electric-start with tiller 20HP weighs 60.7 Kgs. Quite a big difference for motors this size.


There are 4 F30's quoted (not one) and the weights are not 83.8 kilos

Yes, you're right about that. ;)

Tiller arms are not significant.
Look at these two engine's:

Model Weight
F30AEHTL 95
F30AETL 90.4

The difference (the 'H') is the tiller handle. It apparently weighs 4.6 Kgs. I think that's significant.


All updated figures with web site addresses and features are welcome though. I am happy to check all figures in the chart as it makes it more usefull to everyone
You're doing a good job. ;)

[Fanie]

The difference (the 'H') is the tiller handle. It apparently weighs 4.6 Kgs. I think that's significant.
Seems the 'H' stands for handle. There's probably a steering in that tiller for that weight ;)

[rwatson]

Model Weight
F30AEHTL 95
F30AETL 90.4

The difference (the 'H') is the tiller handle. It apparently weighs 4.6 Kgs. I think that's significant.

4.6 kilos significant ?????

Come ooooooon!.

You will be carting more beer than that - just put it in the cooler up in the bow!!! :eek:

[Wynand N]

I may be wrong here, but I think Tohatsu are made by Yamaha.
J

No Yamaha's lower end brand is Selva. Tohatsu's are built by Nissan. I don't know if they are 1:1 the same though.

Wrong on both counts;) Perhaps as a Tohatsu dealer I can shed some light on these magnificent motors...

Tohatsu is build by Tohatsu who incidentally is the biggest and oldest outboard engine manufacturer in Japan. In some markets the Tohatsu is marketed as a Nissan and this may come as a shocker to those believing in the American dream. All Mercury's two stroke engines from 50hp down to 2.5 are built by Tohatsu and are just badge engineering. Mercury's four stroke are build by Tohatsu.

I will be more than happy to supply spec/data on the engines when asked since I have everything at hand as a dealer.

As a sidenote; due to the high engine power/weight ratio and reliability of Tohatsu, they are the engines of choice in the ZapCat and Thundercat international surf racing classes...

[Wynand N]

Are the Tohatsu's in the chart the 4-strokes or the 2-stroke Direct Injected (TLDI) engines?

Looked a bit mixed in the charts;

25hp is on par for the plain two stroke short shaft
30hp at 72kg is a four stroke shorty (71.5kg)
40hp is a TLDi two stroke (93.5kg) short
50hp also TLDi two stroke at 93.5kg (plain two stroke short = 72kg!)
70hp is a TDLi two stroke at 143kg - long
90hp also TDLi two stroke at 143kg - long
115 is a TDLi two stroke at 173kg - long

Just for the interest, here are some weights of plain two strokes by Tohatsu

70hp = 105.5kg - long
90hp = 135kg - long
115hp / 120hp = 164kg - long
140hp = 164kg - long

[rwatson]

They must have a special South African Models :)

http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/115tldi_spec.html
quotes the 115 hp as 178 kilos, dont know where you got 173, but not a lot of difference

All the other weights on the chart were spot on, but rounded up to next Kilo.

The two stroke figures are now included on the chart. They look about on par with the Yamaha.

I was a bit worried about the figure for the 140 HP 2 stroke, even the Yamaha 115 weighs 193. But according to http://www.tohatsu-outboards.com/tohatsu-140-HP.htm, that is correct

WHOOPS - READ THE FINE PRINT, THE 140 2HP IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE ACCORDING TO THAT LAST WEB SITE

[tom28571]

Hmm, can we not trust the facts quoted by manufacturers ? They get validated by lots of different people. I wouldnt have thought they would fib much.


yes - whats the point you want to make ?


I really am not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain more please ?


No - its only the 60 that is "much heavier"
The Suzuki 60 is 1298cm Displacement, and weighs 160 kilos, way over comparable motors. I cant think of when weight isnt a factor, but I would be interested in how the weight makes it more rugged. I have no experience with that engine.


--------------------
Outboard manufacturers have often fibbed about their power ratings. Maybe not so much now as in the past.
------------------------------

----------------
The point is that many people always assume that 4 strokes are much heavier than 2 strokes. I only point out that this is not always so.
---------------------------------------

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Only what I said above.
----------------------------

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Since the Suzuki 60 appears to be the same motor as its much more powerful sisters, it appears to be a detuned version. Detuned engines are generally considered to be more reliable and rugged than their more optimized competitors. Ask any mechanic, especially those responsible for racing engines.

I am not challenging any of the data or statements you made and thought my comments were self explanatory. I do deal with outboards regularly and am interested in comparisons. I do trust the weights given by manufacturers but when specifying a motor of given power for a boat, need to look closely at the specs of those available to avoid space and weight problems.
---------------------------------------

[rwatson]

I wasnt "having a go" at you Tom, just trying to educate myself a bit

Outboard manufacturers have often fibbed about their power ratings. Maybe not so much now as in the past.

I guess we will have to apply some faith in consumer law till we can do some tests. The thing I would like to see is the power curve of each of the engines. Maximum power at high revs makes for a short lived engine.

What we need is a separate authority to test newly purchased outboards to verify the figures. This would confirm to the buyer that the engine they bought was up to spec, and provide realistic HP figures.

The point is that many people always assume that 4 strokes are much heavier than 2 strokes. I only point out that this is not always so..

Well, if they arent heavier than two strokes, basic engineering principles mean there is a problem with one of the engines.

Since the Suzuki 60 appears to be the same motor as its much more powerful sisters, it appears to be a detuned version. Detuned engines are generally considered to be more reliable and rugged than their more optimized competitors. Ask any mechanic, especially those responsible for racing engines.

Re the Suzuki 60, the 60,70,80 and 90 are all 4 cylnders
The 60 Hp = Displacement: 1298cm3 (79.2 cu. in.) (DF60)

The 70 Hp = Displacement: 1502cm3 (91.6 cu. in.)

My take is that there is no detuning - just smaller capacity. Theoretically you could re-bore the block on the 60 hp and make it a 90 in simplistic terms.

That in itself wont make it more reliable or more robust. Its just a marketing ploy to "fill in the range"

I .... thought my comments were self explanatory.

Well, I didnt understand what you meant by "What the actual developed HP of these engines is".

Is "developed HP" different than just plain "HP" ?.

I understand that the HP output can be ruined by a bad prop choice, and that HP takeoff figures can be from the Prop shaft, or the Crankshaft and produce different figures. I was just trying to get a bit more explanation.

I do deal with outboards regularly and am interested in comparisons. I do trust the weights given by manufacturers but when specifying a motor of given power for a boat, need to look closely at the specs of those available to avoid space and weight problems.

Good - the more input we get, the better thre information.

[tom28571]

As far as I know, we in the US don't have any controlling entity that can enforce HP ratings as well as many other specs that we might like. I, for one, will happily do without more government intervention. There are industry standards that help to standardize such things. Mercury was once famous for under-rating their outboards. It let the Merc 10 run on lakes where HP was limited as well as making the Merc so much faster than the competition at the same "HP".

The rest is just pot stirring. No problem.

[marshmat]

I don't think there's anyone in the US actually "enforcing" hp ratings, but my understanding of the industry standards is that an engine has to be within 10% of the claimed horsepower ratings. Outboards are supposed to be rated at the prop shaft. Example- a few years ago ('99 or so), there was a Merc 90 and a Yamaha 100 that were built on the same line, the powerheads being identical in all respects. Both actually produced about 96 hp at the prop. Merc called its version a 90 because a lot of boats had a 90 hp rating, while Yamaha decided to market "a bit more power" at the same price as a 90.

[tom28571]

I don't think there's anyone in the US actually "enforcing" hp ratings, but my understanding of the industry standards is that an engine has to be within 10% of the claimed horsepower ratings. Outboards are supposed to be rated at the prop shaft. Example- a few years ago ('99 or so), there was a Merc 90 and a Yamaha 100 that were built on the same line, the powerheads being identical in all respects. Both actually produced about 96 hp at the prop. Merc called its version a 90 because a lot of boats had a 90 hp rating, while Yamaha decided to market "a bit more power" at the same price as a 90.

Matt,

My points exactly, and this filters all through the hp range and names on the decal.

[Fanie]

I will be more than happy to supply spec/data on the engines
So Wynand, what will it take to actually get the info I requested from you :rolleyes: - I was under the impression you are a dealer :confused:

I, for one, will happily do without more government intervention.
It is no where more true than here Tom. Anything with a 15 hp motor here has to be surveyed, yearly :( It just about making money and nothing else.

[Jack B]

[QUOTE=rwatson;301306]Hmm, can we not trust the facts quoted by manufacturers ? They get validated by lots of different people. I wouldnt have thought they would fib much.


Interesting little game of ping pong this.
We recently built a boat using the Cummins 425hp QSB 5.9 engine. When launched the trim was all messed up and we had to do a lot of remedial work. Eventually we ended up weighing items, including the complete boat to try and get the trim right.
The end of it all was the Cummins weight was given as 612 kg, and we verified this with them. The actual weight was 840kg with ZF box which is 72 kg. This makes their advertised weight about 20% out.
Engines of this power to weight ratio will nearly always be used in performance boats where weight is definitely an issue. In fact we would not have bought the Cummins if the correct weight had been advertised.
But in saying all that it is still a nice engine.
Our rule now is, check the weight before fitting it. They DO fib.

Jack.

[hoytedow]

No Yamaha's lower end brand is Selva. Tohatsu's are built by Nissan. I don't know if they are 1:1 the same though.




Actually, Tohatsu builds engines for Nissan.

[Wynand N]

So Wynand, what will it take to actually get the info I requested from you :rolleyes: - I was under the impression you are a dealer :confused:

Fanie, I will do better and phone you with the info. I was so busy meeting deadlines with boat repairs/buoyancy now that summer is here again and guys wanting to get on the water, I forgot your stuff....

Anything with a 15 hp motor here has to be surveyed, yearly :( It just about making money and nothing else.

Actually Fanie, according to SAMSA Marine Notice 13 (latest) any engine size up to and including 15hp, are excluded from all the crap (skippers license, COF, COL) but the hull, if over 3.1 meters, must still have buoyancy fitted and the boat must carry the basic safety equipment as required in Category "R" boats.
Anything over 15hp, even a 15.5hp, you are in for the full monty so to speak;)

[Wynand N]

The point is that many people always assume that 4 strokes are much heavier than 2 strokes. I only point out that this is not always so.

Im with Watson on this - I still have to see a 4S of similar hp that is lighter than a 2S version....

Detuned engines are generally considered to be more reliable and rugged than their more optimized competitors.

This is true - having all the Tohatsu info at hand, I can safely say that the following engines are sisters of same cylinder capacity and tuned and de-tuned to their specific ratings. Usually the lower rated engine achieved its HP at lower RPM and some carb jetting, timing and port tuning are the main differences. The numbers below are for two stroke only.

4hp & 5hp - single cylinder - 102cc
6hp, 8hp & 9.8hp - twin cylinder - 169cc
9.9hp & 15hp - twin cylinder - 247cc
25hp & 30hp - twin cylinder - 429cc
40hp & 50hp - three cylinder - 697cc
60hp & 70hp - three cylinder - 938cc
115hp, 120hp & 140hp - four cylinders - 1768cc

[tom28571]

[QUOTE=Wynand N;302449]Im with Watson on this - I still have to see a 4S of similar hp that is lighter than a 2S version....

A matter of reading the words. The statement was "much" heavier, not "lighter" than 4 strokes.

[rwatson]

the following engines are sisters of same cylinder capacity and tuned and de-tuned to their specific ratings. Usually the lower rated engine achieved its HP at lower RPM and some carb jetting, timing and port tuning are the main differences.

Hi Wynand

You would have to provide the RPM/HP curve graph to convince me though.

Especially with two strokes. A cheaper, nastier exhaust will drop the HP significantly.

Actually, I dont see the 60 HP 2 stroke on sale
say at http://www.tohatsu.com.au/products.htm

are you sure they are still current ? - the 140 HP 2 stroke you quoted before is N/a

[Wynand N]

Actually, I dont see the 60 HP 2 stroke on sale
say at http://www.tohatsu.com.au/products.htm

are you sure they are still current ? - the 140 HP 2 stroke you quoted before is N/a

Watson, seems like different markets dictates different engines. Here in the land of murder, rape, corrupt government/president etc, we have no laws re emissions to adhere to, and we still have have a ball.;)

The Tohatsu 60hp is available from our importer and in stock. The 140hp is a hot number here and freely available - how many do you want to order from me?:D

As soon as I have time available, I will post you the rpm of the "sister" engines mentioned later.

[mwatts]

Wrong on both counts;) Perhaps as a Tohatsu dealer I can shed some light on these magnificent motors...

Tohatsu is build by Tohatsu who incidentally is the biggest and oldest outboard engine manufacturer in Japan. In some markets the Tohatsu is marketed as a Nissan and this may come as a shocker to those believing in the American dream. All Mercury's two stroke engines from 50hp down to 2.5 are built by Tohatsu and are just badge engineering. Mercury's four stroke are build by Tohatsu.

Ok thanks. Good to know.

What is Selva then?

[rwatson]

Watson, seems like different markets dictates different engines. Here in the land of murder, rape, corrupt government/president etc, we have no laws re emissions to adhere to, and we still have have a ball.;)

The Tohatsu 60hp is available from our importer and in stock. The 140hp is a hot number here and freely available - how many do you want to order from me?:D

As soon as I have time available, I will post you the rpm of the "sister" engines mentioned later.

Thanks - some indicative pricing would also be welcome. Why would anyone buy the 60 hp for example ?

[Fanie]

Why would anyone buy the 60 hp for example ?
Because it's the closest to a decent motor you can afford :D

Lets face it, outboards have become really expensive.

[rwatson]

why would the 60 be much cheaper than the 70 when they are basically the same motor ?

Probably why they arnnt on the range in Australia

Thats why I asked for prices.

[Wynand N]

why would the 60 be much cheaper than the 70 when they are basically the same motor ?

The 60hp Tohatsu is not on our importers list anymore after checking yesterday and wont be imported again. The 50hp & 70hp units are and the price difference here are also small, although they are different motors. My retail prices for them are as follows in ZAR.

50hp = ZAR47500
70hp = ZAR53750

The difference is about Aussie$ 960

[rwatson]

The Tohatsu 60hp is available from our importer and in stock. The 140hp is a hot number here and freely available - how many do you want to order from me?:D.

Bugger - I had the cheque in my hand ready to post. I bet the 140 2s is unavailable to.

Its as I thought - the 60 was the same motor - and a waste of catalogue space.

A thousand dollars is about the right price difference between models.

As BOAT = "Bring Over Another Thousand"

[Wynand N]

told you before the 140 2s is a hot number here...I have stock and the importers have ample. The reason for this engine selling like hot cakes is the fact that is cheap and a lot of bang for money. Its direct competitor is the Yamaha 130hp and 150hp that sells for 40% and 58% more respectively here locally and the Tohatsu has all the Yam features and more - possibly the better engine as well.
That said, some engines in this brand are hard to get by due to world demand and to name but two - 2,5hp and the 25hp 2s are rare - my importers can only have an assignment of these coming in February due to factory production deliveries:(

[powerabout]

Could you add the BRP engines as they are all 2 strokes from 25 and up.
I would be interested to see how much lighter they are?
Thanks

[rwatson]

Never heard of BRP.

Have they got a web site with specs ?

OK, You mean Bombadier Recreational Products - for out boards that = Evinrude, I have heard of them

I hope their motors are better than their web-sites, nothing works. If you dig out the weight, model and HP from somewhere, I ma happy to stick it on the graph

[powerabout]

Works for me I used the Ozzy one
http://www.evinrude.com/en-AU/
you need to load a pdf for each engine
here's one 60hp = 109kg 20" tnt
You might want to add cc and cylinders to help correct the data as one manufacturere might be at the hp top end of an engine range while another may have the largest cc and kg as it is the bottom end of the model design range.
You also need to look at prop diameter and gear ratio to also compare what will happen in the real world between 2 engines of the same horsepower.
So one will make a light boat go fast and the other will pull more skiers out.
Comparing horsepower of outboards is not as good a measure than if you were talking diesels etc due to the above especially in the mid range.
Unfortunately its the only real measure you have as a consumer.

Nice work
Regards

[fastpowerboats]

AeroMarine has a database of all outboard and inboard engine specifications (http://www.aeromarineresearch.com/motordesignwizard.html), I think it includes all specs including weights, HP, RPM, etc. for entire HP range by each manufacturer.

[rwatson]

Thats facnastic !. It costs $70, but its well worth it if you have Outboard selection to do

Good tip FastPower

http://www.aeromarineresearch.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.15.exe/online-store/scstore/p-004.html?E+scstore