Third world wooden boat boat-yards?

[atavist]

Just poking around and there is a good discussion on chinese GPR boat boat-yards on one of the other forums... any chance anyone knows of a good wooden boat boat-yard anywhere in the third world that does good work? I'd like to have a custom traditional wooden boat built but the cost of labor and wood is prohibitive in the US... I'd be willing to travel to any location world-wide to supervise the construction and take posession if I could find a place that could build the boat at a good cost savings over US boatyards.

I know thailand was the place to go, still may be, but from what I'm hearing they have all gone GPR as well...

thanks.

[jmolan]

I have been to this yard. Former US ex pat had a very good operation going. You can check him out here. Phillipines is very friendly and less costly place.


http://www.boatshop.com.ph/


However it looks like they are doing another amazing wood boat, and I do not know the managers or anything else.

http://fusionschooner.blogspot.com/

[Herman]

Before going anywhere, please also check the procedures to get the boat out of the country. This can give you a serious headache in some countries...

[bertho]

hi,
i'm the guy building the nigel irens schooner in the philippines, first basic decision is also if you want a boat who will fully comply with us regulation, to register your boat there later, cost will be increased as we need to import (taxes++) number of items from US, and have all survey ad hoc..
i think for electric components/tanks/ hoses/ some systems parts, if you want to sail over the world with another flag, no problem, we can find most of equivalent and safe items on the local market, but it will be difficult to fully comply later with us regulations if the boat is built in a place like here... just a matter of decision, you can get get equivalent quality (or better here, as the cost for labour is less ) , supervision remain the heavy $$ point...!!
cheer's
bertrand

[apex1]

you can get get equivalent quality (or better here, as the cost for labour is less ) , supervision remain the heavy $$ point...!!
cheer's
bertrand

Well summed up Bertrand.
May I add: >>hands on supervision<< is the clue! Just telling the local shipwright how you like it is rarely enough (as you know pretty good).
Classification is not that big a problem (when you choose the class. body carefully), but of course adds a substantial amount on the heavy side. In China it is easy to have it IACS classed. Without classification one may find some difficulties to get the boat registered in western countries (flag states).

Regards
Richard

[gonzo]

What makes you think that building a boat is the US is much more expensive? Compare equal quality and up to standards equipment instead of only price and you will see that the savings are not that great. Also, in Third world countries, you will get little or no legal protection on your investment. In my experience the boats built there are poor and have a short life.

[apex1]

What makes you think that building a boat is the US is much more expensive? Compare equal quality and up to standards equipment instead of only price and you will see that the savings are not that great. Also, in Third world countries, you will get little or no legal protection on your investment. In my experience the boats built there are poor and have a short life.

Though you´re not really wrong here, you´re not completely right also.
It IS possible to get a first class quality done in Asia (even better than in the US). It IS far cheaper (due to the enormous difference in labour cost). Both is proven several thousand times.

But, of course, when you are not familiar with the country, not a skilled pro yourself, the chance to get your project screwed in a moment is enormous!

When was "Philanderer" built? Almost 15 years ago or so?

Regards
Richard

And:
I'd like to have a custom traditional wooden boat built but the cost of labor and wood is prohibitive in the US...


When the cost of wood in the US is already too high for you (it is the cheapest worldwide in general), you will probably not get happy abroad too! Maybe just one step down in size, or the second hand market solves that problem.

[gonzo]

That is one good thing about the US, used boats are very cheap. Hong Kong yards where great, but were run by British management. In Taiwan there are a couple of good US run yards. The legal protection in minimal or nonexistent though. That is always a major concern. The language and cultural barrier is hard to bridge. For an American, expecting people to work when they have been paid is a given, but it doesn't always work like that overseas.

[apex1]

That is one good thing about the US, used boats are very cheap. Hong Kong yards where great, but were run by British management. In Taiwan there are a couple of good US run yards. The legal protection in minimal or nonexistent though. That is always a major concern. The language and cultural barrier is hard to bridge. For an American, expecting people to work when they have been paid is a given, but it doesn't always work like that overseas.

Do´nt forget the German management in many many yards in Asia!
And of course, US and European people assume to get what they paid for, which never works in Asian driven workshops of any kind. They are used with low quotations to get a order and negotiate again later to earn money.
But once you have a proper running business there, you can have very good quality at substantially lower prices. The control is the trick as Bernard stated above.


Regards
Richard

[gonzo]

I agree about foreign management in Asia. However, I would not call them Third world. To me, Third world setup, would be going to a yard in Bangladesh or Senegal

[apex1]

When doing business there (as I do) you revaluate some countries pretty soon. And some even develop back, like Turkey.

Richard

[Alik]

Third World - what it that? Sounds offensive to anyone who lives and works here.

[apex1]

Third World - what it that? Sounds offensive to anyone who lives and works here.

The thread opener surely did not mean that offensive, so did´nt Gonzo or I. Though for the average Usanian every country except "gods own" is third world.
Do´nt ask for my personal opinion Albert. When it comes to several Asian countries (and Asia starts at the Bosphorus), my personal view (based on experience), will offend, I´m sure.

Regards
Richard

[Alik]

I know a lot of stories about building boats in Asia as well :)
But on other hand, this (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99253) happens in US :D

[apex1]

Well Albert, you´ll find them hardly as stupid in Thailand! I know that story and still cannot believe how one would be able to make such 5 storey house on a ten times lengthened boat. And it was reported that these guys are teachers! Poor children, born to loose................

[szkutnik]

Build the boat in Poland. It is safe here, not so hot and still cheaper than in west Europe.
In Asia workers are cheap but managers probably not.
Please come to me: www.yacht-building.pl

[gonzo]

Regardless of some people being isulted by facts, you have more safety by having a boat built in a country with laws that protect you.

[apex1]

Regardless of some people being isulted by facts, you have more safety by having a boat built in a country with laws that protect you.

Absolutely right. And for a novice a very important point.

szkutnik

today Poland is´nt that much cheaper than the US anymore. Though well below western Europe. The additional transport, travel and communication will not pay at the end.

Regards
Richard

[szkutnik]

I don't know the hour price in USA, maybe now is the same like in Poland. In my workshop 15-20 US$.
But forget about transport, it's nothing in the boat price. 50 feet boat transportation from my workshop to the U.S.,will not cost more than 10 000$.
This will rise the hour price by 50 cents.
Regards
Marek

[apex1]

I don't know the hour price in USA, maybe now is the same like in Poland. In my workshop 15-20 US$.
But forget about transport, it's nothing in the boat price. 50 feet boat transportation from my workshop to the U.S.,will not cost more than 10 000$.
This will rise the hour price by 50 cents.
Regards
Marek

Marek you cannot forget about transport! When 10.000$ would be the cost, you should give up boatbuilding and make a fortune in Yachttransport!
A 50´boat is between 40.000 and 50.000 US$ from Europe to east coast USA. I pay that every week.
The wages are below the US at 12 to 15$, but already well above the wages in Turkey (your main competitor).
And according to your calculation, you would need 20.000 manhours for a 50´boat?
When promoting your service here, which is not soo popular, do it with a solid calculation, not with wild claims.

Regards
Richard

[szkutnik]

Yes 54' O.A., 43' on deck 20000 hours
I build my 40' wooden boat in 11000 hours.
And about the transport:If you are producer than you have to pay for transport 40000.
If you have one sailing boat to delivery you can sail it. and 10000$ is with drinks on deck.
Delivery from Hawaii to France cost 5000$ + fee for the Panama canal and food for 3 person.
And maybe "ATAVIST" lives on east coast.

[apex1]

Yes 54' O.A., 43' on deck 20000 hours
I build my 40' wooden boat in 11000 hours.
And about the transport:If you are producer than you have to pay for transport 40000.
If you have one sailing boat to delivery you can sail it. and 10000$ is with drinks on deck.
Delivery from Hawaii to France cost 5000$ + fee for the Panama canal and food for 3 person.
And maybe "ATAVIST" lives on east coast.

Of course, I´m a manufacturer of motoryachts and cannot "sail" the boats elsewhere. And for sailing yachts your cost estimation is valid for a crew of friends, yes, but professional crew will charge you far higher than 5000$ for France / Hawaii!
On the manhour I will not comment further, being a sort of competitor, that would´nt be fair.

"ATAVIST" ???east coast???

Regards
Richard

[szkutnik]

"ATAVIST" ???east coast???

Regards
Richard
atavist = thread starter
east coast = maybe he (atavist)want the boat on Florida or Caribbean than 40000$
for tranport to west coast USA does not make sense.:)
Please become my friend, shake my hand and chill.I invite you for a beer.

Best regards
Marek

[apex1]

atavist = thread starter
east coast = maybe he (atavist)want the boat on Florida or Caribbean than 40000$
for tranport to west coast USA does not make sense.:)
Please become my friend, shake my hand and chill.I invite you for a beer.
Best regards
Marek

Sorry I made a big mistake! I meant EAST COAST US! We send to Florida usually! I will edit my post above!
For the beer: thanks, but apart from EB which is somehow drinkable, I refuse to drink the stuff in Poland. And I am cool, no need to chill. Maybe I bring the beer.;)

Regards
Richard

[gonzo]

Delivering a boat on its bottom will put the same wear and tear as several years of normal use. It is like getting your Ferrari driven from Italy instead of shipped. Also, low wages alone are not an indication of the total cost of a project. Good management, fast paced workers and locally available materials and fittings are more important.

[apex1]

Delivering a boat on its bottom will put the same wear and tear as several years of normal use. It is like getting your Ferrari driven from Italy instead of shipped. Also, low wages alone are not an indication of the total cost of a project. Good management, fast paced workers and locally available materials and fittings are more important.
Yes Gonzo, transport on own keel is even worse than in your Ferrari example.

Not to forget that the fast paced workers have to be skilled, not only willing and relatively cheap.
There are just a few places in the world where a long tradition in boatbuilding (aka skills), a good infrastructure, reasonable taxes, the availability of ALL equipment and material, low wages and a sufficient reliability of the labourers come together!

[gonzo]

That is when legal protection is important. Getting the boat build where the owner can enforce a contract should be a priority. Fast and sloppy construction is never a good value for the cost.

[szkutnik]

Delivering a boat on its bottom will put the same wear and tear as several years of normal use.
More than half of my customers prefer to sail alone home.It is a good way to spend time. Some people prefere the sailing adventure than "several years of normal use" keeping the boat away from the water .

Some people buy a boat to show how they are rich and others to sail.
It seems that we have other customers and our discussion does not make sense

[gonzo]

Well szkutnik, you can stop posting on this thread then and let us who have similar costumer talk about it.

[szkutnik]

Just poking around and there is a good discussion on chinese GPR boat boat-yards on one of the other forums... any chance anyone knows of a good wooden boat boat-yard anywhere in the third world that does good work?
thanks.
Apex1 and Gonzo what are you doing in this thread?
Are USA and Germany third world? NO, they are not.
But Poland: No managment,no shops,no availability of ALL equipment and material even nothink to drink. It must be third world.
I see that you have to take part of every thread on this forum,even if you are off topic.

[apex1]

Apex1 and Gonzo what are you doing in this thread?
Are USA and Germany third world? NO, they are not.
But Poland: No managment,no shops,no availability of ALL equipment and material even nothink to drink. It must be third world.
I see that you have to take part of every thread on this forum,even if you are off topic.
I ave not seen one of us being off topic here in the past years. And if, we are joking! But..
Maybe some members here have a sort of worldwide experience that you do´nt have?
Gonzo lives in the US, was brought up in another country (as far as I understand it), and works in GB at present. I may assume he has seen more than that.
I am a German, building boats in Turkey, and Holiday resorts in the rest of the world.
May that gave a broader horizon than average Joe has?

And yes, Poland IS third world, compared with W. Europe. But the people there claim to be amongst the leaders of the EU!

Regards
Richard

[gonzo]

I just finished a job in Oman before coming to the UK. I had to get blue masking tape from Dubai and resin from the UAE. Sandpaper came from the US. To me working on developed country conditions means my supplies don't take more than overnight to arrive.

[szkutnik]

All our discussion is off topic.
One simple question:
....any chance anyone knows of a good wooden boat boat-yard anywhere in the third world that does good work?...

and only two specific responses.

3 pages about nothing

You ask:
-Maybe some members here have a sort of worldwide experience that you do´nt have?
-For sure they have , but why they don't answer?
by the way,
I travel a lot (included far east), and i have meny friends around the world.

I see, it is possible to get some masking tape and send paper in Oman,
so maybe i will stop using sand from my garden for sending boats and i will look around for some shop .

[gonzo]

So, are you saying that Poland is Third world but there is at least one good boatyard?

[apex1]

-Maybe some members here have a sort of worldwide experience that you do´nt have?
-For sure they have , but why they don't answer?


That means you did not find the first page of this thread?

[gonzo]

There are many places I would discourage people to contract a build. Uruguay, where I grew up and learned to build boats, is one of those. The communists is power have laws that allow workers to take over a business and keep it. The risk for a customers, particularly a foreign one, is really high.

[szkutnik]

I see that my english is so poor that you don't understand me
Once again:
On the first page only "imolan" gave some contact.
and on the second page, me.
So only two specific responses.

Are there any boat yards around the world (besides these two mentioned)
able to take this job? "atavist" is stell waiting for the answer.

Let's start a new thread: About nothing

Marek

[szkutnik]

Riczard. You are right about EB beer. I can't find this brand at shop any more.
In Poland, no body wanted to drink it. They stoped production or everything is exported.

[teoman]

hey.
If you didn t find what you ar elooking for, contact me.

syalgin@yahoo.com

I can have what you want built with the best quality of wood, best craftmanship and prices.