Concepts for Self-righting Aluminum Center Console

[ratrace2]

Hello All:

I was thinking that a self-righting Centre Console, sportfishing boat would help save alot of lives.

I saw an example of this with the Coast Guards Rescue boats. Just wondering if anyone might have a sound grasp of the "necessary concepts" to achieve such a feature in something like the "ever popular" 20-29 Ft Center Console fishing boats we see being pulled up and down the highways every Holiday.

I look foward to all critical ideas, recommendations, suggestions and just plain babble... . . . . .

[marshmat]

For a Coast Guard rescue boat, that must be able to go out and do its job in absolutely horrific conditions, self-righting makes sense.

However, I don't think it would be a useful feature on a typical 20 to 29 foot centre console fishboat.

From a technical standpoint, the large deckhouse needed to provide the buoyancy to self-right simply cannot be fitted to a centre console fishboat while maintaining the large, open cockpit/deck area that is the main reason why people buy these boats. You could do it, but it wouldn't be a centre console fishboat anymore.

But perhaps more importantly, a self-righting boat will be of absolutely no safety benefit whatsoever unless the captain and crew have seamanship to match. The level of seamanship needed to safely recover a self-righting Coast Guard rescue boat from capsize, applied to the existing centre console fishboats, would give those fishboats a virtually perfect safety record.

We can throw all the technology we want to at a problem, but to save lives, the people using that technology need to know how to use it....

[apex1]

But perhaps more importantly, a self-righting boat will be of absolutely no safety benefit whatsoever unless the captain and crew have seamanship to match. The level of seamanship needed to safely recover a self-righting Coast Guard rescue boat from capsize, applied to the existing centre console fishboats, would give those fishboats a virtually perfect safety record.
We can throw all the technology we want to at a problem, but to save lives, the people using that technology need to know how to use it....

If that was´nt a quote (and I assume it was your word), may I use it in the future?

Regards
Richard

[ratrace2]

Marshmat,
Outstanding observation, learned point of view, and practical analysis, but a
practical concept can be pulled from your observation.

I think you understand the concept well; so it must be true that, " the large deckhouse needed to provide the buoyancy to self-right" is what I thought is the necessary element to achieve "self-righting.

All we need is something large enough to keep the bow buoyant; thus, allowing the stern to role up under the boat; thus, we just need enough volume on top of the console, or at, or about the hardtop height.

OR,

We can develop a hardtop and console with enough bouyant volume to bring the craft back 50%, and then let some sort of Ballast/keel configuration bring it back the other 50%.. . . . .. I like this idea...."a virtually perfect safety record".

After all, what fun is fishing if you don't live to tell about it???

[Willallison]

If that was´nt a quote (and I assume it was your word), may I use it in the future?

Regards
Richard

Ditto!

Then again.....purely from a technical standpoint....
They do actually make self-inflating badders that are attached to the radar arch that will self right a centre console. They are quite common on RIB's

[ratrace2]

" "They do actually make self-inflating b[L]adders" [.]" I didn't know that. Hum?????

Why don't they make them mandatory equipment on 20-29' CC's

[Willallison]

Oops - my mind works faster than my fingers!
Simple... $$$ ... and as Matt pointed out, there's no guarantee that it'd make them any safer in untrained hands

[mark775]

Bear in mind, also, that a roll-over of a 41' "roll-over" will create much damage, including stripping antenae and crew needs to be strapped in and main hatch cover dogged to even have a chance of survival. Also, crew do not always get through the forces involved nor the time submerged.
These little boats you consider, 20' to 29' center consoles, are typically outboard powered and will be not much more than something to hang on to if rolled, anyway. I, personally, feel that rolling over would suck and would strive to keep upright as an alternative.
Plenty of people die using "unsinkable" boats, BTW. Selling points aside, there is no substitute for learning, paying attention, and practicing seamanship as if your life depends on it.

[Willallison]

..... and practicing seamanship as if your life depends on it.

Because it does....

[mark775]

"Why don't they make them mandatory equipment on 20-29' CC's" - More regs! Or we could just ban CCs, Mr. "Unsafe at Any Speed".

[Knut Sand]

On a project I know... It was suggested to make the Centre console so voluminious that the boat were unstable in the upside down position. Testing showed that one tiny man (me, Norwegian winter... ). Could give the inverted boat a clasp on the arse, and it immedeately started to rigthen. The moment needed to start rigthetning was less than what was needed to lift myself up to breast height. Didn't look too bad either, strangely enough.

Added cost to the design this way is close to mimimal.

btw, if I recall correctly; the requirement for rescue boats is not self rightening, but that two men in water shall be able to righten the boat (SOLAS), So the boat shall at least be close to self rightening or equipped with a co2 inflatable rightening bag on the targa beam(?correct name??).

[marshmat]

If that was´nt a quote (and I assume it was your word), may I use it in the future?
Regards
Richard
Yes.
Bear in mind, also, that a roll-over of a 41' "roll-over" will create much damage, including stripping antenae and crew needs to be strapped in and main hatch cover dogged to even have a chance of survival. Also, crew do not always get through the forces involved nor the time submerged.
These little boats you consider, 20' to 29' center consoles, are typically outboard powered and will be not much more than something to hang on to if rolled, anyway. I, personally, feel that rolling over would suck and would strive to keep upright as an alternative.
Very true. If you roll a centre-console fishboat, the engine powerheads, console, all the electronics, batteries, etc. all get soaked. If you then get it back upright, you have something that sort-of floats, but certainly cannot move under its own power.
The Coast Guard RIBs that have those inflatable bags on the arch also have extensive modifications to the systems and the engines so that they will have at least some chance of being usable after a capsize. Needless to say, these boats cost more than double what civilian counterparts of similar size and performance go for.
so it must be true that, " the large deckhouse needed to provide the buoyancy to self-right" is what I thought is the necessary element to achieve "self-righting.
All we need is something large enough to keep the bow buoyant; thus, allowing the stern to role up under the boat; thus, we just need enough volume on top of the console, or at, or about the hardtop height.
OR,
We can develop a hardtop and console with enough bouyant volume to bring the craft back 50%, and then let some sort of Ballast/keel configuration bring it back the other 50%
Yes, you probably could. Again, though, I'm not sure people would buy it. The appeal of a CC fishboat is that the whole thing is open deck- you can walk all the way around the boat, with hip-high bulwarks in many cases. If you want this boat to self-right, you have to make it shed water and you have to give it a lot of superstructure volume- thus negating the centre console's main advantage. Ballast is not an option for buyers in this class- they want speed, lots of it.

The thing is, I have yet to hear about a centre-console fishboat capsize that was due to a design flaw in the boat itself. Every single one I've seen in the news has been attributed to poor seamanship- things like overloading, taking a boat farther out than it really ought to go, failure to keep bilge pumps clean and operational, allowing the boat to lie beam-on or stern-on to the seas, everyone running to one side to help net/photograph a fish (while the boat is beam-on to the seas).... and in an awful lot of cases, the survivors (if there are any) are plucked from the water in T-shirt and shorts, with the lifejackets still safely secured somewhere in the bow locker. Some people even try to leave the capsized boat and swim for shore- something any kid with a few years of swimming lessons can tell you is a definite Bad Idea.

As far as open boats go, I'll stick with the cruising catamaran approach to capsize: Don't flip it in the first place.

[ratrace2]

On a project I know... It was suggested to make the Centre console so voluminious that the boat were unstable in the upside down position. Testing showed that one tiny man (me, Norwegian winter... ). Could give the inverted boat a clasp on the arse, and it immedeately started to rigthen. The moment needed to start rigthetning was less than what was needed to lift myself up to breast height. Didn't look too bad either, strangely enough.

Added cost to the design this way is close to mimimal.

btw, if I recall correctly; the requirement for rescue boats is not self rightening, but that two men in water shall be able to righten the boat (SOLAS), So the boat shall at least be close to self rightening or equipped with a co2 inflatable rightening bag on the targa beam(?correct name??).

Yes, this is kind of what I was thinking.. . . At least it would be a perfectly acceptable compromise.

[mark775]

This "rescue boat" you're talking about might be a life raft - if it deploys upside down, it can be righted before the stability chambers fill up with water. Speaking of forces that most don't imagine, in weather that causes a capsize, inflatable life raft can tumble with shredded or collapsed stability chambers trailing behind. There are those that have died from getting thrashed inside a cartwheeling raft.
About a RIB that the CG might use in a rescue; just last winter, kudos were received by a helicopter crew here for saving some hikers on a beach (Latitude 59.65N and Longitude -151.12W) who had a capsized boat...and crew of a CG rescue boat of the inflatable targa technology half-turtle alongside her, doubling the victim count needing rescue. What is the boat you are talking about doing in this weather?
Should wool clothes under a mustang suit be required to be worn, as well? A way to start a fire? Helmet, mouthpiece, steel-toed shoes, cup, confined space entry permit? I say, ban CCs entirely and be done with it.
Curious to see the, say, 25 footer that a guy could grab onto and pull right-side-up - let alone in the same **** that would capsize it.
Have fun with your self-righting plan. Please, tho, don't make me, one day, come and instill logic into some bureaucrat goofball about this.

34792
Doesn't look like it could be too bad here, does it?

34793
This witness, later interviewed, said that, in his opinion, Nebraska kids with cool, self-righting technology are still Nebraska kids (and lucky to be alive).

[Submarine Tom]

Having trained for, and experienced a self righting bladder deployment on a

Canadian CG Zodiac, I'd take a slew of self rescue gear before one of those

things. Several points to consider: you're not likely to get it running again

and if you do, you've got this bloody huge air sausage sticking out like a

sore thumb. You are no longer an asset but a liability now needing rescue.

Give me a PFD, dry suit, strobe, parachute flares, smoke cannisters, EPIRB

(Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon) and sealed marine VHF radio

and I'll see you back on shore. Better yet, don't get yourself in the position

of needing any of that gear in the first place! This is by far the best option.

You're kidding yourself if you think any of this gear is necessarily going to

save your sorry ass BUT you wouldn't catch me out in a nasty sea without
it.

-Tom

[ratrace2]

I see some clear themes developing here:
a). Know how to handle the boat
b). Don't go out in bad weather
c). If you "screw-up" (a) and you do (b) there is not much that is going to save your sorry ass.

Well done guys.

[mark775]

Rat, It's just that there probably is no silver bullet. Aggressive marketing could sell some boats like you describe - I don't mean to dissuade you from that. Good luck, too. I am a consummate tinkerer, myself, and have been shot down hundreds of times. It's healthy. If you can show me to be wrong, you've probably got a winner!

[Knut Sand]

The boat I was rightening was this:

http://www.norsafe.no/index.php?aid=3104

There's no reason why, something like this couldn't be used for non-rescueboats, in my opinion... Removing the lifting hook will only improve inverted handling.

But then again, chrashing boats is fun.... Pretty close to the most interesting job I've ever had...

I have to admit that some people that works/ worked at that company is probably among some of the best boat handlers that can be found.

The thing is the get inverted bouyancy, that makes the boat unstable in this position, (err... why I partly distrust some (not all of them, but some) RIB's as the Bladder on the gunwale is pretty difficult to "sink" into the water, resulting in excessive lifting force needed to lift the oposite side out of water.

The room in the cc can be used for a crampy bed, going under the floor area in front, a ****'n carry toilet, things that don't weight too much...

If I manage to attach some pic's this is not the boat in question, but another one, 60 hp outboard, fixed bouyancy bladder, on the pic notice the height of the gunwale aft from the water in the inverted position, the bladder lifting the engine and the boat, in this area. The cc is closed, and used for equipment, and tank. The front deck contains no bouyancy, so the front is somewhat down, but not too much. One man (me) in water could righten this one, no hightech moving parts...

And the statement that you'd probably not be able to restart; there are kill switch on the engine, killing it when about 90-100°: Same for inboard diesels (but of course a bit different), restarting is not too difficult.

One problem will be sale, the persons you are adressing these kind of boats to, are probably also considering the professional boats for this issue, boats that's already there on the market, and have a reputation. Selling these kind of boats to persons who think they can handle any boat in any kind of weater. Is probably only giving you problems. People who are used to handle these boats, can handle them in pretty severe conditions, while another person might get problems at waves eceeding 0,2 m... that's when your problem may really start, if that person bought your boat.

There are persons out there that doesen't understand the fact that life is given to you without any guarantees, while death is guaranteed... They should not be out in any boat in almost any kinda weather, your problem is that a concept like this may attract some of these....

[ratrace2]

Knut:
The problem with that design is that all of the weight is in the back--with the engines and fuel--it's working to your disadvantage. You have to lift the front; so, you can use the weight in the back to help "twist" the boat when the flotation in the bow becomes unstable capsized.

If you move that big Orange thing up front and use it as a radar tower/inflator --or whatever--it would be more effective.

[ratrace2]

Rat, It's just that there probably is no silver bullet. Aggressive marketing could sell some boats like you describe - I don't mean to dissuade you from that. Good luck, too. I am a consummate tinkerer, myself, and have been shot down hundreds of times. It's healthy. If you can show me to be wrong, you've probably got a winner!

Not at all, you guys are the best.

I have no intentions of building and marketing this boat for the general public.
I couldn't sleep at night with "these" issues surrounding something that I was responsible for.
I do however want to apply some concept of this technology to one of my own boats.

Thus, since I don't consider myself an "able seaman" I like to plan for trouble and put in place safety features that help the boat survive under the worst possible conditions and "unforseeable" circumstances. In other words, I want to "stack the deck" in my favor when it comes to safety features.

Also, I want a boat but I know I'm not a great--or good--boat handler, so in order to have a fighting chance, if I screw up, I put a crab rail on the stern, install water tight doors, add additional flotation. Make everyone with me wear a "personal lazer beacon".

I have no problem with going as far as buying some old Military style one man pilot rafts and have them deploy in a "knock down", senario.

[Submarine Tom]

ratrace2,

I would encourage you to persue the positive buoyancy route, this is a

much greater asset than self righting, given the complications. Check out

the Canadian and USA 47 foot life boats. They take on about 350 gallons of

water in a roll over and require the forward hold (AKA the "anti-gravity

chamber") be kept empty. I appreciate and admire your intensions and

hate to discourage you but my thinking is the collateral damage from a roll

over is great and ones efforts might be put to better use in saftey

equipment and training/knowledge/experience. Join a Coast Guard

Auxilliary unit or better yet the Coast Guard (big difference) and I think in a

short time you'll appreciate what I talking about.

-Tom

P.S. The orange righting bag shown is tiny compared to the one on the 6000

pound Zodiac 810 I'm familiar with.

[Knut Sand]

Knut:
The problem with that design is that all of the weight is in the back--with the engines and fuel--it's working to your disadvantage. You have to lift the front;

If you move that big Orange thing up front and use it as a radar tower/inflator --or whatever--it would be more effective.

The boat in the pictures IS unstable in the inverted position, we had difficulties to place it in the inverted position for this test....
Fuel tank is fixed in the center of the boat as far down (or up, if you like..) as possible. So when the gunwale starts to roll down into the sea, the bladder aft gives pretty good momentum to righten the boat. Placed aft (bladder, fender) as it is, it also rises the whole engine above water in the inverted position, gives you some time to "plan" the reentry operation, like wind/ waves. Don't have to lift the front, it's ok wet... (to lift the front, more weight in the rear, or more bouyancy in the front, will probably cause the engine hood to stay vet/ soaked), and an engine that gets fully soaked can be a problem to restart.... (been there, done that...).

So, looking at the engine issue, the big orange thing is pretty perfect placed...:D

[TeddyDiver]

The problem with that design is that all of the weight is in the back--with the engines and fuel--it's working to your disadvantage.

It's just the opposite.. Like Knut says..

[Knut Sand]

Join a Coast Guard Auxilliary unit or better yet the Coast Guard (big difference) and I think in a

short time you'll appreciate what I talking about.


P.S. The orange righting bag shown is tiny compared to the one on the 6000
pound Zodiac 810 I'm familiar with.

Guess what's said here and other posts above; practice makes it safer. Also a good way to meet these problems is to avoid them, I got to admit I sometimes find some situations more interesting than others, but then I've also more or less prepared/ planned for them....

Zodiacs, have really large volumes of bouyancy, in the gunwales (ehhrh, and everywhere else too....), also in the inverted position, which makes them pretty stable upside down also. To righten; one gunwale must be lifted enough up of the water to start rightening, there is no way that the other side will find its way down into the sea.... Therefore; rightening bags for RIBs needs to be bigger (more in the way, catches more wind, etc...).

[ratrace2]

OK, I got it...yea, I like that alot.

[ratrace2]

ratrace2,

I would encourage you to persue the positive buoyancy route, this is a

much greater asset than self righting, given the complications. Check out

the Canadian and USA 47 foot life boats. They take on about 350 gallons of

water in a roll over and require the forward hold (AKA the "anti-gravity

chamber") be kept empty. I appreciate and admire your intensions and

hate to discourage you but my thinking is the collateral damage from a roll

over is great and ones efforts might be put to better use in saftey

equipment and training/knowledge/experience. Join a Coast Guard

Auxilliary unit or better yet the Coast Guard (big difference) and I think in a

short time you'll appreciate what I talking about.

-Tom

P.S. The orange righting bag shown is tiny compared to the one on the 6000

pound Zodiac 810 I'm familiar with.


You Mean Like This:

I could get in real trouble with this.....

[ratrace2]

I think I'll track one of these boats down and have a better look:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127488

[ratrace2]

Looks Like Fun.

[mark775]

That series of pics is a good example. Looks like fun to someone young. Looks like "I'd like to avoid it" to someone with family and responsibilities.
That boat should have given itself searoom to begin with and if in the spot they were in should have seized the opportunity to charge the wave before it broke, chopping the throttle upon just assuring passage without flipping. Then skedaddled. It's as if they were trying to be in the worst spot in which they could be - probably training.
Personally, I would take a smaller, more nimble boat into that surf (only to save lives), ride the back of a wave, grab a victim and make a decision to beach if you have to (unless too rocky - you would be amazed at how high and dry one can beach and how soft the landing by riding the back and goosing right as the wave turns to foam under. This requires practice, BTW - Kids, don't try this at home!) or bolt laterally and pick a non-breaking point to climb back out of hell. Nice pics. All bar ports suck, at times but Morro Bay just plain sucks.

[ratrace2]

Mark775:

Driving through that stuff with a boat that big is an "art form".....

I don't think--I don't know--if you could teach that to someone who don't "get it" in the first place.

I was just thinking, could you imagine building that kind of capactiy it the average sportfisherman?? Cobo, Viking, Witicar, Viceum, Luhrs?

What do you think would happen? Would we be any better off for it??

[Submarine Tom]

Mark775:

Driving through that stuff with a boat that big is an "art form".....

I don't think--I don't know--if you could teach that to someone who don't "get it" in the first place.

I was just thinking, could you imagine building that kind of capactiy it the average sportfisherman?? Cobo, Viking, Witicar, Viceum, Luhrs?

What do you think would happen? Would we be any better off for it??

Ah, no.

[mark775]

I concur. No.
There are things one can do to make them better sea boats, to be sure but everything is a trade-off. For example, Bayliners are a great boat...for the right use (protected water). They have more features per dollar. Step up a bit to boats you talk about and you can venture further out. They are doing things like not putting windows up front, using better adhesives to glue cap to hull and insuring that screws actually bite into something. They are learning through experience what breaks and making it a little stronger. But if they redesign to make a sportfisherman a sea boat, it will be expensive, they will not be what people want, and the thing will only need these features once in a blue moon. Ten, or twenty, years with a fleet of boats not needing to take a wave like that and the next generation of boats will have more parsley and less beef.
Lets say a charter boat can take a hit like that. It would be expensive to build. It would be slow or very expensive to power. It would not be very accomodating. It would be ugly, cold, hot, clammy, loud, have little fishing space, and the charter would have to pay more for it. Remember, the guys on that boat (47'? New to me) are strapped in and may not survive. Avoid the situation and the need for such a boat evaporates.
The short answer is "no".

[ratrace2]

How about just bringing those sportfiermen up to just 50% of the capacity of a boat like the "Morro Bay"?

Don't forget to factor in lower insurance cost, lower loss of life, longer service life, more stable platform to refit, greater public reputation as a "safe" boat.

5 good reasons.

[TeddyDiver]

How about just bringing those sportfiermen up to just 50% of the capacity
There's allways been some better and safer boats but, just becouse the reasons Mark stated, they remain as "some" and quite rare compared to the mainstream..

[mark775]

The boat is named the "Morro Bay"? I thought that was the place about which you were talking. I'm way off, anyway, I was thinking of Depot Bay. Subchapter "T" boats, "T-Boats", for short, are about what you are talking about at 50% more seaworthy than a typical production boat. People don't pay more to get on a "T-boat" - they actually pay less on a per-person basis.
It's a sick world but indulge me here. Many accidents happened because people were making money carrying people to Cuba, or wherever, way back when (I don't want to research specifics) on damned-near anything that floated. Congress passed laws to save lives and the "Inspected" boat was born. Lawyers bleated because they lost their right-offs and their doctor clients lost their right-offs. An exemption was made whereby it is perfectly satisfactory to kill six people (the six-pac) but to carry a seventh, a boat has to be inspected (an involved process, including construction). Today, that is subchapter "T" of the Code of Federal Regulations. Congress looked like they were doing something, tax right-offs continued and people continue to die, but usuallly not in as large of numbers.
I hesitate to say this but a well found six-pac can be a better boat than a poorly kept inspected boat. A single big difference that seperates is that non-inspected boats don't have freeing ports and watertight decks, as a rule. They should.

[wardd]

couldnt you hag the boat under something like the Hindenburg?

[ratrace2]

I looked and found the "reall Morro bay".


I think you were right "mark775"

[ratrace2]

couldnt you hag the boat under something like the Hindenburg?

OK, you get to do the stablity calc's for the boat. OK, ........Drop and give me 50.

I want you to go knock on the door . . . .and say. . .there were no survivors of the boat (bla..bla...bla). Mr/Mrs.....

Your son/daughters are lost at sea. . . . ..

[ratrace2]

The boat is named the "Morro Bay"? I thought that was the place about which you were talking. I'm way off, anyway, I was thinking of Depot Bay. Subchapter "T" boats, "T-Boats", for short, are about what you are talking about at 50% more seaworthy than a typical production boat. People don't pay more to get on a "T-boat" - they actually pay less on a per-person basis.
It's a sick world but indulge me here. Many accidents happened because people were making money carrying people to Cuba, or wherever, way back when (I don't want to research specifics) on damned-near anything that floated. Congress passed laws to save lives and the "Inspected" boat was born. Lawyers bleated because they lost their right-offs and their doctor clients lost their right-offs. An exemption was made whereby it is perfectly satisfactory to kill six people (the six-pac) but to carry a seventh, a boat has to be inspected (an involved process, including construction). Today, that is subchapter "T" of the Code of Federal Regulations. Congress looked like they were doing something, tax right-offs continued and people continue to die, but usuallly not in as large of numbers.
I hesitate to say this but a well found six-pac can be a better boat than a poorly kept inspected boat. A single big difference that seperates is that non-inspected boats don't have freeing ports and watertight decks, as a rule. They should.


Right, got'ya. sure. "it is a sick world"
. . . .so right you are. .. ..

[TeddyDiver]

Found again the "lost" vid of the (now forbidden I think) boat practicies in the Morro Bay.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF_6gPlbf54&NR=1