Seine skiffs?

[duluthboats]

I just read a small blurb in a magazine about some seine skiffs built by Bay Welding Services out of Homer, Alaska. There was a small photo from the forward quarter, they look a lot like a rescue minor style hull but it is hard to tell from one photo. Is anyone familiar with these boats and this builder? They looked very interesting.
Gary :D

[Tad]

The typical power skiff has a simple form with a flat bottom, they are pigs in the water and only designed to pull like hell, not free running.

Because the Alaskans often end up fishing in very shallow water I would not be surprised to see someone develop a tunnel style.

Typical Seine Skiff
http://www.rozemaboatworks.com/skiffs/seine18.html

[TollyWally]

That dry exhaust in the example @ Rozema isn't typical. In a former life I was a skiffman and as obnoxious as an ordinary skiff is at the end of a long day I would think a drystacked model would be even worse.

[Tad]

Here are a couple of pictures showing Alaskan power seine skiffs being moved.

34731

34732

[TollyWally]

I noticed that the skiff on the Delta is another drystacked model.

[duluthboats]

Here is a link to the article I read, there is no photos for the story in this online addition. It is the 2nd story down titled, Trio of skiffs gets jet power.
http://www.nationalfisherman.com/search.asp?ItemID=1928&rcid=399&pcid=389&cid=399%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A
Here is a link to Bay Weld Boats, the skiff in the photo I saw in the print copy looked much like this, maybe a little more topside and with the console forward.
http://www.bayweldboats.com/open_consoles.html
This boat looks very different than those that Tad posted and as he said a need to work shallow would be a reason for the difference.
Anyone putting in a day on these would be earning their pay.

[kmorin]

Duluth, Tad, Tolley

These little "tugging" skiffs are always changing as new ideas are explored, new equipment added or better mouse traps are applied to what Tad accurately described as 'pigs in the water'.

There are a few 'classes', some outboard boats, some inboard, some jet. They all have a few draw-backs compared to another version- so comparing them is difficult unless you were to compare their main hulls' seine permits.

For example, if they fish salmon in a river mouth, like the Red River on Kodiak, then shoal draft is worth a quite a bit- jets would be attractive if they could pull. A few decades ago there was a 'low speed jet' by Tracktor Jet, I think from Arkansas or somewhere its goal was to provide bollard pull at low speed unlike the velocity-head pumps for recreational jet sleds. This large diameter impeller sucked water up to fill a 20" deep jet volute but the skiff only drew about 8-10" pulling on the gear.

If the seiner fishes salmon in deeper water then an inboard with a wheel seems more suited because draft isn't as critical and there's more pull for the gas money. In another case, if the boat seines herring only, then maybe the lower cost of an outboard skiff is more cost effective? This last skiff might cost less, pull more than a jet and if it were on the beach the outboard can be partly raised.

The general shape is about as rounded as they can be, in plan, and in body section they're about rectangular because top speed is essentially nil; they don't really pull much net by themselves -more than pull, to move net, they stand still while the main boat dumps off the set around the fish. Sure they do move some- but they don't move fast, are only an metal buoy at the end of the net with enough engine and steering to try to keep the net's open end stationary enough for the deck hands to get the corks lead/purse line back on the main hull.

Bay Weld, an extremely high quality builder in Homer,AK built them, but I'm not sure if they are still producing seine skiffs (?) and others in Alaska have as well. In my opinion, most of the lines and innovations follow Cliff Caulkins' ideas and welded aluminum boats examples in the class. [He built in Homer in the 70's and 80's but I believe only does survey work now?]

I think the sheer of these skiffs is one of the cleanest lines around, and that I credit to Mr. Calkins (whose name I'm likely misspelling).

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo273/kevinmorin_photo/Val14/deckframe_1a.jpg

Here's a look at the general shape- THIS IS NOT A SEINE SKIFF by use, but it is the general shape, has the outboard [engine] well and is very full forward; in fact this one is shaper by the bow than most. Deck is not in, well is not cut out, but the essential lines are typical of this type of skiff. I followed the general idea to give the seine skiff 'look and feel' to this 14'.

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo273/kevinmorin_photo/Val14/overview_3a.jpg

You can probably tell, I'm a fan of these little skiffs even though I've only built a few for commercial boats in the past. I [still] think their lines are very attractive and still prefer to look at them more than most other skiffs' lines.

cheers,
kmorin

[TollyWally]

That's a good looking tin skiff!

[mark775]

kmorin, weird - I said "hi" to Allen today and had coffee and talked guns with Cliff. Small world.
I knew Cliff created some things (and some REALLY ugly things) including pod drives for jitneys and even bigger but with lots of innovation. Include teaching Ren Tolman (Tolman skiffs) and George Hamm (Hamm Hulls) how (somewhat) to build plywood boats. I didn't know the influence he had on seine skiffs (I did once get to watch him draw an oval for a Freeman Hatch and accurately cut it out in less than a minute freehand - with a Skil saw)
Are you in Homer?

[TollyWally]

Didn't Hamm have something to do with the early Russian hulls?

[comfisherman]

I have seen two of the aformentioned skiffs. Like was posted earlier not entirely special designs. Just a flat bottom, high sided, floating motor. The ones made by bay welding are a bit longer than the older skiffs.
Skiff design has two basic criteria mentioned earlier, tough as hell, pull like crazy.

The old fibergalss becks and olsens are were good early glass skiffs. Olsens rode a littel nicer, becks were shallower but had a tendancy to sink. Then browns came out with its little aluminum 12 fotters with flush decks that could float a 225 and towed like everything. Rode like crap but could bounce of a rock at 20knts and keep on going. I spent many of my formidable years in a browns listening to the whine of that old yamaha. Jitneys are nice because they do not have the outboard well and are a lot harder to sink.

I have moved tr a jet rig with a john deere and a traktor jet. Its nice myself and my crew have yet to sink it which is saying something. Its made by abd in canada and is one of the few skiffs that was actually designed by more than a guy with a sheet of aluminum and a pencil. Eel gras is death to it but it gets in shallow like a outboard rig and can take some really rough cape fishing. If it were a foot or to wider and a litte longer with twice the power it would be perfect.

Jet rigs are cool and groovy, but the prop jobs can really pull. I spoke with one of the owners who was on boats and harbors a bit ago. He said he was hoping for 4500lbs of thrust with his $$$$$$ jet skiff and 330 hp. I think rozema does twice that with the same horsepower. Probably same cost as rozema has those gubmint contracts and there price has gone up up and away.

Tollywally

Hamm made some zingers, I have a 16 hamm just waiting on a console and a 115. The 20 hamms would zip across the water in a 3foot chop like a boat twice its size could not even dream. I looked at a beach seiner built by him, what a crazy litte boat designer, it was beat with an ugly stick and in tough shape but a neat boat none the less.

As for hamm helping design the russian boats........ take the 32' anticipation built by hamm, put 3'high sides directly up from the deck, a monstrous ugly skeg dont the bottom and a poorly laid up house and you have a first gen russian boat. I don't know if it was exactly what hamm was going for but it did influence the design. Kinda psuedo hull plagerism.

Is hamm still around, last i heard he was doing multi work. I think he was in the wadsworth/beck/crazy brilliant old boat builder category.

wow that was a long post

-comfisherman

[TollyWally]

I associate the glass skiffs with pocket seiners and the big diesel skiffs with limit boats. I didn't know about Hamm's smaller sportboats. I liked the dingleballs on the first generation Russian hulls. :)

I also didn't know the tractor skiffs were so weak compared to the conventional wheel boats. I remember at the expo the first time I saw the tractor jets. LOL, they seemed to gloss over that. You fish Prince William Sound?

[comfisherman]

I guess what I do could be considered pocket seineing, especially if my winter boat building plans go through. We did a little tow off a couple years back all in good fun. My snag skiff vs. power skiff. 225 2 stroke brutalized the 180 ish hp traktor. The traktor did fine with the 150's and held its own with a 220hp hamilton. But a 120 ball park perkins with a prop drug us all around. I think thats why rozema has tunneled props with big john deeres. I imagine they pull like mad.

I don't fish the sound, well this year I did not do any salmon (massive summer boat rebuild) but I have chignik/kodiak seine permits.

[TollyWally]

Chignig had some mighty fine years in the past. It sounded like a quite lucrative fishery. Of course you only hear about the good times. The Kodiak boys seem to have developed some good techniques for intercepting Cook Inlet reds. How are those fish targeted? A buddy of mine always used to say he thought the Kodiak seine permits were undervalued, a secret good deal.

I find your experiments with various skiffs quite interesting. Goes to show you shouldn't always believe what you hear, especially at the expo.

[mark775]

"Kinda psuedo hull plagerism." - I love it.
"Is hamm still around?" - Yes, he's "born again" but still putzes around. He built a cat for some friends of mine a few years ago that drinks fuel like a lady - a wonderful little displacement cat. Perhaps the best thing he's done. Like myself, George would hang out around Caulkin's chop trying to glean knowledge (by osmosis?)
I talked to Allen Engebretsen about this sight and he said he watched it and loves feedback about what people do and don't like. I had to go to the Bay Welding sight to spell Allen's name and watched their video. These things blow by me everyday at breakneck speeds. Basic little boats not my cup o' tea but the music in the video almost made me write a check! I'm actually talking to Allen about a 55' hull on which to set a fiberglass cabin (light weight, stealth [can't see aluminum well against a shoreline], beaching ability, low maintanance). I think the stuff he is doing is wonderful.

[thudpucker]

Didn't Hamm have something to do with the early Russian hulls?
George Hamm made a lot of specialty boats for the Cook inlet fishery.
He made the mistake of hiring a couple of young Russian kids from the Russian village at Kasiloff and they began to build a pretty equal looking copy of Hamm's Cook Inlet fishing boat in the "Bow Picker" and "Stern netter" design.

Seine skiffs had a reason for Dry stacks. I think it might have had something to do with the obnoxious way they rolled while man-handling that long net in a big circle. It was a job for the Skiff-man to keep the boat from sliding because the net was trying to shorten the arc.
The Skiff would lean under or roll over....more like a job for an 18 yr old kid who liked the wild ride.

[mark775]

The last Russian village that I know about at the geographic location of Kasilof, 60.335274; -151.233594, was before 1800. I believe you are talking about some villagers of Nikolaevsk, about 20 miles north of Homer. Same effect, tho. George didn't want to be in production, anyway, and the Russians were about the only ones wanting those hideous things - and them, only 'cause they could build them themselves.

[thudpucker]

Mark you caught me in an old memory. Ninilchik is what us whites call the Russian village. Kasiloff is way up the inlet from Ninilchik.

Hideous? I wish I had a photo.
His hulls had a nice bow flare and had a great reputation for handling quartering waves out in that inlet. I would have had one but settled for less.

PS: If the economy hadn't have gone sour, I'd still be your neighbor.

[TollyWally]

To my eye the worst thing about the first gen. Russian boats were the gaudy colors and the dingle balls in the wheelhouse. And they were kind of slow. What were some of the names of Hamm's hulls that fished the Inlet besides the russian boats?

From what I hear the russians that are there now are not old time Alaskans but relative newcomers. Leaving Russia to be able to practice their religion they had a very interesting trip before they hit Cook Inlet. I believe the last place they were before the Inlet was Oregon.

[thudpucker]

I think the ones in Cook inlet are relatives of the bunch that came with Baronoff, and stayed.

[mark775]

Actually, you are both correct but you can tell them apart because the Baronoff ones are mixed native blood (it started with a Russian expedition with the German William Steller) and the new ones wear the different clothes as part of their religion. These guys, the new ones, were driven to Manchuria by persecution - bad decision, as they were persecuted more. From Manchuria, Brazil. There they couldn't find a way to make ends meet...on to Woodburn, Oregon, then Alaska. Now and again, they get in a fight about how long their beard should be or if the young can marry outside of the church or who the organ player should be (Like our Baptists!) and they start a new village. Funny thing, one Ivan Reutov related when Obama won the election, "Dang it - This is why we left Russia!"
Hey, do me a favor and read Where the Sea Breaks it Back by Corey Ford, Amazon. Anybody who cares about the history of this place (it's about Steller) will love this simple, eye-opening book.

[TollyWally]

The oldtimers look like natives but have Russian names, no beards except maybe a wispy goatee every now and then. The newcomers are quite well bearded, sashed, shawled, braided,embroidered and old timey looking. They all drive the same type of rigs with identical accesseries. The native versions dress like every one else and drive a wide assortment of different rigs. The two groups don't appear to be kin what so ever.