stability with speed

[griff10]

This is one I don't think I've ever seen posted. Most know that boats tend to be more stable when they are moving compared to at rest. Been working on designs that are extemely narrow and now this is getting important to understand (for me). Can anyone explain why this is?

Thanks,

Bill H.

[Ad Hoc]

"...Most know that boats tend to be more stable when they are moving compared to at rest..

can you explain what you mean by this?....and how this relates to being 'extremely narrow', in your definitions/understanding

[griff10]

Well the boats I've been using are less than 20" wide and nearly 20' long. They are totally unstable at rest and are fairly stable once moving. Some forces obviously are at play here that I don't understand.

Look at Olympic kayaks and Surfskis for examples.

Bill H.

[Squidly-Diddly]

the force of the water running past it will want to continue in the same path it was traveling a split second before.

That is a force that doesn't exist on a stationary boat.

The fact that the hull has already altered the flow of the water somewhat doesn't matter, what matters is the force and momentum of the flowing water at that instant the hull tries to roll. This will be both positive and negative pressures.

Also, certain aspects of certain hulls may be set so that at speed and 'at level' equalized pressures are set up, and putting the hull out of level will increase pressure on the downward side of the hull.

This is sort of like a 'stabilizing sail' on a boat to keep it from rocking. The sail might cause the boat to heel to one side, up if it heels too much the wind will be spilled, and if it is upright the pressure will increase. Better to be heeled to one side and have less rocking and rolling.


All this is just my own 'feeling' on this issue. I may be part or completely wrong.

[yipster]

think you mean dynamic stability?
a boat moved by a force experiences different motion than at rest
on choppy waters you be way better off in a moving boat

[griff10]

Actually in tippy kayaks on flat water it's more stable while moving than sitting at rest. I'm sure this is magnified because the boats are so narrow and the degree of stability is so low to start with. Expert kayaks that actually have any positive stability at all (some have negative stability) have that in the range of 5 or less ft/lbs., but they all gain stability when moving.

Bill H.

[TeddyDiver]

Can you get yourself to reed C A Marchaj, Seaworthines The Forgotten Factor? There's a lot to read about stability issues (too much to quote here).
Static vs dynamic stability pages 112 to 121.. Some also relevant with canoes.
Teddy

[Ad Hoc]

yipster is correct, you're talking about dynamic stability, stability when underway.

Many factors are at play when considering at rest and moving. Since at rest, there is no paddle in the water. This paddle provides directional stability as well as it own restoring force on the hull when heeled. The paddle is not always providing horizontal thrust, there is a vertical and transverse component during the swing too.

The hull shape too...and hence the relationship between the KB and KG, or centre of buoyancy and centre of gravity. Then how these are affected with heel angles (and in some cases list too, since the paddler/rower is moving transversely too). For a long slender monohull, the dynamic stability, that is the work done in heeling the boat through an angle, is the product of the angle and displacement, or immersed volume. Since this is also affected by the hull shape above the waterline, this plays a major factor too. Some long slender canoes are different, some have minimal above water hull shape some have a lot, this affects the restoring moment too. Also how the person is sitting in the hull affects the KG which affects the aforementioned. The same is true longitudinally too...this plays a part in yaw etc

It is not so straightforward many aspects of the hull, shape, KG and KB are all at play, not to mention the addition of an external force and its resluting effects, so to speak, of the paddle, which are not present at rest.

[Rick Willoughby]

Actually in tippy kayaks on flat water it's more stable while moving than sitting at rest. I'm sure this is magnified because the boats are so narrow and the degree of stability is so low to start with. Expert kayaks that actually have any positive stability at all (some have negative stability) have that in the range of 5 or less ft/lbs., but they all gain stability when moving.

Bill H.

Bill
There are two things worthwhile trying to get first hand experience with dynamic stability.

1. Try riding a bike with rear wheel steering. Or a bike with reversed geared steering.
2. Try riding a surf ski with a bow mounted rudder.

There is a very narrow pedal boat called Wavebike that uses dynamic stability once under way. The hulls are only 12" wide and 20ft long. It would operate in surf with a strong rider. It has a huge rudder for its size so very powerful righting forces. Having the high seating position helps with dynamic stability because it increase the roll moment of inertia so the response time is less demanding.

There are small outriggers on the Wavebike with spring release so the deploy once released.

Narrow hulls are very similar to bikes once under way although the point of application of the forces is different.

Rick W

[Guillermo]

I didn't know kayakers call 'dynamic stability' to the leaning of the body to right the boat. (The essential sea kayaker: the complete guide for the open-water paddler (http://books.google.es/books?id=IaVeU3x_-sIC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=kayak+dynamic+stability&source=bl&ots=AtkgDXRjJ-&sig=Ckc53MOMRR75_p-EpUnVhD1r3fc&hl=es&ei=MpGdSs3OC9GgjAe6tfWUAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=kayak%20dynamic%20stability&f=false))

But talking a kayak's increased transversal stability under way due to lift, or hydrodynamic stability (the term 'dynamic stability' has a different meaning in naval architecture, related to righting energy derived from the static stability curve), it depends on dynamic pressure and drag acting on the hull, in a, let's say, similar way the gyroscopical force acts in a bike. It will greatly depend on type of hull section (and, of course, speed), presenting chined hulls the stronger effect and rounded ones the lesser, but it is always small.

It seems Waterbike's stability rather depends on a canard fin under the hull directly beneath the WaveBike's handlebars.

A couple of good links to kayaks and the like stability.
http://www.seakayakermag.com/2009/09e-newsletters/june/stability.htm
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/information/kayak_design/kayak_stability

Cheers.

[yipster]

good links Guillermo. apart from kayaks let me trow in the new giro stabilizers
i was under the impression they are for at rest comfort at sea
as at speed dy or hydrodynamic forges to an extent allready neutralise heave pitch yaw etc
dont really know if those giro stabilisers are fully used underway..
a quik google say's yes http://www.seakeeper.com/applications_luxuryyachts_photogallery.php
its sort of relevant to the thread but me, no i am not convinced i want one

[Guillermo]

Hi yipster!
I think gyrostabilizers have been discussed previously...let me see... yeap! here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/gyroscopic-stabilizer-372.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/long-skinny-power-boats-5073-11.html
and more
Check forums for "gyro stabilizers"

cheers

P.S. Are you attending METS?

[yipster]

Are you attending METS?
almost every year, send me a pm please

[ancient kayaker]

I didn't know kayakers call 'dynamic stability' to the leaning of the body to right the boat. (The essential sea kayaker: the complete guide for the open-water paddler (http://books.google.es/books?id=IaVeU3x_-sIC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=kayak+dynamic+stability&source=bl&ots=AtkgDXRjJ-&sig=Ckc53MOMRR75_p-EpUnVhD1r3fc&hl=es&ei=MpGdSs3OC9GgjAe6tfWUAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=kayak%20dynamic%20stability&f=false))

But talking a kayak's increased transversal stability under way due to lift, or hydrodynamic stability (the term 'dynamic stability' has a different meaning in naval architecture, related to righting energy derived from the static stability curve), it depends on dynamic pressure and drag acting on the hull, in a, let's say, similar way the gyroscopical force acts in a bike. It will greatly depend on type of hull section (and, of course, speed), presenting chined hulls the stronger effect and rounded ones the lesser, but it is always small.

It seems Waterbike's stability rather depends on a canard fin under the hull directly beneath the WaveBike's handlebars.

A couple of good links to kayaks and the like stability.
http://www.seakayakermag.com/2009/09e-newsletters/june/stability.htm
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/information/kayak_design/kayak_stability

Cheers.

It is not just transverse stability that is affected by kayak speed. As a kayak picks up speed there is a noticeable reduction in the yawing caused by the double bladed paddle. I estimate the improvement can be as much as 2:1. It is more noticeable in short, beamy kayaks with hard chines and keels or other longitudinal edges than in long, skinny rounded ones.

[Petros]

I have spent a lot of time in narrow sea kayaks and have notices this issue. The yaw stablity increases because when the hull yaws it generates a large vorex off the stern, creating drag that want to pull you back in-line. This effect is greatly noticeable if the hull is equipped with a skag or even a small strake or similar device that generates a vortex off the rear when yawed.

I suspect, especially in a hard chinned hull, that you get similar vortexes along the skin increase in strength with speed, that also help the roll stablity. and this is what you are feeling as you increase speed. Evan a round bottom kayak will shed vortexes off the skin, just not as strong as the hard chine hull. It would work something like this, if you roll the kayak to one side, the deeper side creates a stronger vortex, which take engery and has the effect of slowing or stiffening the roll. The side that lifts out of the water gets a weaker vortex, softening the resistance against the hull. This would also have the effect of yawing the hull, and as the hull want to correct the yaw, it will also add some correcting rolling moment to the hull. These forces are not large, but they are noticeable.

While the paddling motion helps stability, even if you hold the paddle out of the water while moving, or when sitting still, you are more stable when underway. The effect I believe is essentially caused by the water moving over the curved surfaces of the hull in a non-symetcial way.

I do not know of any way to model this behavior, you would have to take measurements of righting moments on the hull both statically and with water flowing over it (in a flow tank perhaps). And like anything else, different hull shapes will have different amounts of correcting moments.

[ancient kayaker]

You may be right. I know it doesn't take a lot to stiffen up a canoe or kayak considerably. When I take a rest from paddling during a long (for me) trip my usual way is to stick the paddle across the gunnels and hook a leg on top. Then I can relax or even sleep, the boat feels rock solid even though the buoyancy of the blade is only a pound or so. Of course I can sleep anywhere in almost any position, genes from a naval family I suppose.

[DBM]

It is pure dynamic stability. At anchor I almost fall overboard walking from side to side in a 19 foot V bottom. At speed it is rock solid. I noticed years ago when I was in a flat stern round bottom canoe with a 9.9 outboard (fun). At rest it will tip over if you stand up wrong. Opened up you can't make it tip over.

[philSweet]

The reduction of yaw with increasing speed is a design factor. It is not difficult to design a boat that trips over itself as speed increases. It has to do with how the center of resistance is affected by speed and yaw angle as well as the magnitude of the damping force and paddle cadence. The latter two generally do help reduce yaw excursions; but I believe it is primarily a design feature.

[DBM]

I believe that the design is of no consequence so long as it is symetric. I think that this subject is more related to fluid dynamics that hydro dynamics and I have no background in fluid dynamics.

[ancient kayaker]

I have no idea what design factor Phil is referring to, but my canoe which I designed and built shows very similar behavior in this regard to some of my other boats, although they are quite different in other respects.

The canoe has a skeg and it takes a lot of work to turn at any speed, or even at rest. It hardens up further under way.

My recently completed sailboat can also be rowed, and that also stiffens noticeably under way. It is the opposite of the canoe, short and fat, no skeg, and at rest it can literally be spun end to end with 2 pulls on an oar. When starting I have to be careful to pull evenly to keep her straight. However, once under way holding a straight course becomes much easier, and it needs several pulls on one oar, at least a half-dozen, to execute a full turn around.

The only thing I can think of which makes any sense at all is that the blade's force on the water decreases at speed, but I don't believe that is the whole story. Petros' vortex theory is the most likely explanation I have heard. The rowable sailboat has a single 72 deg chine and demonstrates the effect most strongly, the shortest of the kayaks has a rounded bilge but it has 2 sharp-cornered grooves along the bottom and it also shows the effect clearly. The canoe has 2 chines at 25 and 46 deg and shows the effect somewhat less.

My longest boat is another kayak which also has a rounded bilge but a flat bottom and I don't recall really noticing the effect on that boat, however in the interest of full disclosure I don't have a lot of time in that boat as the homebuilt canoe is a much nicer boat.

[nyalex]

Great forum, need some help. Looking to buy a sailboat capable of world wide sailing with solid stability and good speed. I sailed plenty of friend's boats and rentals, but not sure what to buy. Is Beneteau good enough or I have to buy Swan not to sink in the middle of Pacific? Is 36 footer good enough or I need a 65 footer? Please let me know if you are an experienced sailor.

[apex1]

A mass production boat will not satisfy your needs, and a 36 foot is too small to make a sufficient liveaboard. Something in the 48´ ballpark comes closer.
And I would look for a metal boat, not plastic!

There is a saying on the barefoot routes: 50% of the circumnavigating yachts are metal, the others are US American!

Not all these silly comments are as stupid as it might seem.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Thanks, Richard. That's a good start. But Titanic was metal, right? Isn't fiberglass a stronger material in case of collision? Metal rusts in salt water, doesn't it? Maybe someone can tell me why fiberglass is so bad, although the companies say fiberglass is good enough for blue water sailing. Would any metal boat do or I need top manufacturer? I know boats that sail into icy waters are usually metal. Any suggestions for metal sailboat company? Thanks in advance.

[apex1]

Titanic was metal right. But was a complete fault in every design aspect!

Fibreglass is the weakest of all common boatbuilding materials! It has advantages for the builders only, not for the customers. (I build in wood epoxy and Fibreglass too, so I know what I´m talking)

My own passagemaker could be easily built in my preferred material and method in wood epoxy, and it could be done in house!
But I prefer a steel built boat done by others! Being the 7th newbuild for my personal use, I claim to know what I am doing.
A metal boat is just the better choice when hitting a container or hammering on a reef for half a day. And that happens, no doubt!
Metal corrodes, thats right. Aluminium though builts up a thin layer of a corrosive which protects the metal from corroding further. In theory a Al boat will never corrode away. Just leave it unpainted and it protects itself.
Todays steel boats are coated with epoxy primers and epoxy paints to prevent from corrosion. When done correct, a steel boat is as maintenance free as a GRP one! WHEN DONE CORRECT !!!
A perfectly executed wood epoxy boat is a prime choice too, but I have higher latitudes in mind and need a icegoing boat, there Wood Ep is´nt the choice (as GRP definetively is´nt).
Well good enough to cross the oceans, GRP maybe, some have done it and survived. But from a technical point of view GRP is the worst material, period.

No, not any metal boat will do! Not any yard either!

Like in all other materials the building quality varies far too wide, to allow such a statement.

Recommendations are a bit a dangerous thing you know?
What is the length we are talking now?

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Thank you Richard, everything you say is confirmed by my research to be correct, and you sound like a great experienced sailor. I wanted something not longer than 85 foot schooner type, and not smaller than 42cc type sloop. My prime concern is safety as my family may be traveling with me. I heard steel rusts from inside, aluminum is good. Let me run this by you. Can a frame be made out of wood, with aluminum on outside of hull, and the whole thing fiberglassed inside and out? My thinking is strenth of wood and aluminum with low maintenance of fiberglass. I can be wrong, just an idea. Either way, I will be making a custom boat, not buying production fiberglass. Appreciate any insight.

[capt vimes]

nyalex - why do you want to glass a metal hull? what should that be good for?

and i do not think that it would be a good choice to mix wood with metal...
i know that metal is/was always used to stiffen a wood construction but you do not use wood do stiffen (frame) a metal construction... wood is not as strong as metal and therefore the weakest link...
no good option to me...

There is a saying on the barefoot routes: 50% of the circumnavigating yachts are metal, the others are US American!

thats a good one... :D ;)

for me aluminium is the choice... if it would not be that expensive.... :(

[apex1]

Every material mix is a danger (except wood epoxy).

Aluminium and wood may be the worst possible combination! Al corrodes immediately away when it is in contact with "standing" water.
Glassing metal is just adding weight and trouble! But covering steel in epoxy is a proven (and worldwide accepted) way of making it rust resistant. A correct built steel boat does NOT corrode!
Of course a proper maintenance schedule is very important, but that is valid for EVERY material.
When you scratch a GRP hull you need to repair that immediately, or it gets you in problems. Same is valid for any other popular boatbuilding material.
The only maintenance free material is Titanium! That would be the best available material to build a boat. But it would cost more for the hull and deck alone than for a complete boat built of other materials.
Aluminium is NOT more expensive than steel, when the yard is very experienced, or better specialized in Al, and the design was made for Al exclusively!

You know between 42´and 85´is a difference of several million $$? And handling a 85´boat with family crew can be a task, even for the skilled boater. On top of that, you can reckon one person for each 20ft above some 60 or 65´ for permanent maintenance work, just to keep the boat in good condition! They are not part of the "sailing" crew, just in charge of service.
So, my advice would be, get familiar with a reasonable size of boat, say 65´as the absolute upper end. 50´the lower...(still a large boat)

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Thanks a lot, guys, I appreciate your input. Seems like custom made aluminum about 65 feet is the way to go. Monohull? I sailed catamarans, but not in the oceans. They are fast, but are they stable and fit for world wide travel? Also, I heard that racing boats made out of fiberglass race in the oceans with success and even circumnavigate as well. Would such a racing boat be good, I don't know many racing boats, may be something like Beneteau First series. Are they better built than cruisers? I really love sailing, but no way I want to sink like some have in the past. Especially with family onboard.

[apex1]

The best racing vessel (no matter boat, plane or car) is the one that falls in pieces right at the chequered flag!
And the manufacturer you named is doing mass production for the charter market! You may find the answer yourself.
On multihulls I cannot comment in deep, I am biased against them. I would not take one when given for free.

Regards
Richard

[ancient kayaker]

The best racing vessel (no matter boat, plane or car) is the one that falls in pieces right at the chequered flag! ...

That's true, although there's a lot to be said for a little over-building, just enough for the crew to get off ...

[nyalex]

You are right Richard and I agree with you on multi-hulls. One catamaran sank several days ago in Phuket with one fatality. Capsized due to strong gust of wind. Thailand is one of places where I do business, and Phuket has clear open waters. Except for tsunami when I was there, I survived, no wave problems. This wind must have come out of nowhere. Monohulls do seem much more stable, if slower than catamarans. Any thoughts on pirate threat in world wide sailing? And on subject of stability, what does anyone think of those galleons from 300 years ago that used to sail the world? Would such a boat still be respected or has modern boat building technology made those types of designs obsolete?

[ancient kayaker]

Even while builders and designers were limited to the materials of those far off days, the galleon was superceded by ships with superior sailing capability once the tactic of boarding from castles was abandoned in favor of superior sailing and gunnery.

[nyalex]

Let me see if I understand everything correctly. Fiberglass is bad, even on boats claimed to be high quality like Alden. Steel is good only if covered with epoxy paint to protect it from rust. Aluminum is the best and unsinkable? Titanium is too expensive to use as building material. Wood/epoxy is good, but steel is better. And I need to be careful to choose the builder. Someone with experience? Or any good welder in Thailand or so can do the job? Labor is cheaper there. Multi-hulls are a no-no.

[apex1]

All steel boats built today are epoxy covered and rust protected! The quality of the process varies though.
Aluminium is not the "best" nor is it "unsinkable", it is just another good choice with advantages and drawbacks as any other material.
Wood Epoxy is a prime choice too, no doubt, but it definetively is weaker than metal when hammering on a reef.

ALL materials have drawbacks, ALL!
Boatdesign and boatbuilding is a endless chain of compromises, no perfect solution possible.

When REAL passagemaking is what you have in mind (not dreaming it, doing it), a metal boat should be your prime choice.
If it is only "extended cruising" what comes out finally, a wood epoxy one is probably the better choice.
When your average use ends up at the average use of average Joe, a cheap plastic tub could be fine too.

Have a loook here to narrow down your requirements, before we are talking material and design choices in deep.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/design-spiral-where-start-building-boat-28580.html

And yes, there are recommendations on yards, once we know what we are looking for.

Forget about building in Thailand or other "exotic" places! You would have to engage a project manager to supervise and control the building process full time. Otherwise you end up in a nightmare and spend more money for less quality, than you would, building in western Europe!
No welder in the world can do a professional boatbuilding job! They can do a good (or even perfect) metal job, but thats just a part of boatbuilding. Leave it to the yard to employ or engage skilled craftsman with the cert.s needed.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Thank you, Richard, you are very informative. Let me see. My requirements are simple. Strong boat. I like speed, but not at the expense of stability and strength. I never crashed any of sailboats, powerboats, and catamarans that I sailed over many years, so I am a pretty good sailor. Still, some idiot in his boat might hit me, I have heard of killer whale attack on wood boat, sandbars, hidden reefs, whatever. Things can happen. So, I need a strong boat, hopefully with some safety floatation devices built in. I am in contact now with european naval architect who designs wood epoxy boats, I always like those. Trying to figure out if possible or better to build boat out of wood then fiberglass it like some people say ... not sure about that one. Sad to hear aluminum is sinkable, maybe steel would be a better choice. Boat size 42 to 65 feet in length, about 18 meters plus/minus. Budget not really an issue, I have businesses all over the world and always make money trading stocks/options on NYSE. But my real concern is going down in middle of nowhere, maybe some pirate threat. I can manage most of my business by internet/phones from anywhere in the world, so long voyages are what's expected. I am so sick of land. Property taxes. Bla bla bla. Some real freedom would be nice. I know I am still yound at 35, but maybe time to retire. Enjoy life.

[apex1]

There are no Killerwhales attacking boats, thats a tale.
You might be interested to have a look what others are thinking about passagemaking boats in general:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/offer-true-go-anywhere-trawler-build-side-side-28678.html

and me in special.....

Do´nt focus too much on the material for now, be focused on your requirements (and which of them to sacrifice first).
A wood epoxy boat is glassed at the outside in general, for a better abrasion resistance, thats all.

A STRONG boat can be built out of any material common in boatbuilding, the question is to find a balance between fear and demand!
Extra flotation is not found on true bluewater boats. (and not needed) Once they are behind a certain point of damage they sink.
That is ok, and all the sailing world can live with it.

Too much fear means not enough fun! Bear in mind that the entire commercial fleet of the world is sinkable and driven by single engines! No belt and suspenders needed, when game is over, it´s over, et basta.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

OK, I see what your saying, Richard. Thanks. I saw program on TV, english sailor with family, wood sailboat, 1979? Rammed by killer whale, adrift in pacific for 5 weeks, survived on rainwater, fishing. Could be fake, but ... whatever. So, let me get your opinion on this, because with family aboard, sinking not an option. Double hull, many airtight compartments with some floating type of foam, and a small back up escape survival boat in tow or so. Would that be safe enough and possibly close to unsinkable? I was a professional swimmer in university, but family isn't. Therefore, safety first. Also, heard that it's not easy to insure wood or metal boats, steel requires ultrasound of hull to check metal thinkness/rust? And .... must I carry full insurance traveling around the world like auto insurance in case I hit someone with boat, like liability?

[tom28571]

Fibreglass is the weakest of all common boatbuilding materials! It has advantages for the builders only, not for the customers. (I build in wood epoxy and Fibreglass too, so I know what I´m talking)
Regards
Richard

Richard,

Surely you need to expound on this a bit further. As it stands, its extremely misleading. I build mostly in wood but have experience with fiberglass boats also. There are multitudes of excellent fiberglass boats being built and sailed around the world. All boats need to be properly designed and built for both their intended use and the material of construction.

Close friends include circumnavigations in wood, fiberglass and ferrocement. A nearby builder turns out excellent boats in steel and aluminum is good also. For many (most) people, fiberglass provides the most reasonable access to a good boat. More backyard builders work in plywood than any other material.

[apex1]

There are no differences in insurance rates for ALL type of material except Ferrocement.

The unsinkable boat is a dream not worth to bring into reality. A well designed, perfect executed vessel with several watertight compartments is a very safe place to be in.
I never had any problem to go to sea with my children on a boat designed and built to my requirements. Of course these vessels have not been similar to a average dock queen or charter boat. Worlds away!
A double bottom is a easy to achieve and common feature on todays passagemaking motorboats. Not so common for the sailing community. Not available in glass or wood.
A double hull is a nonsense and was never built as far as I know. (except for commercial vessels, where there actually is NO double hull, just tanks inside the hull, doubling the skin)

Steel does not require anything more than other materials, just proper preparation and corrosion protection!
Even a GRP hull needs sort of corrosion protection, provided by the gelcoat and paint, or by a layer of epoxy resin to hold the water out of the laminate.

Yes you MUST insure your boat with some sort of liability insurance, you otherwise run in severe trouble in many countries.
The average coverage for a fully insured yacht is in the ballpark of 1,5% of the boats value per annum.

Have you had a look at the thread about my next boat?

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

Richard,

Surely you need to expound on this a bit further. As it stands, its extremely misleading. .

No, sorry I do not elaborate further on that. It is as it is, the weakest material is GRP, period. Of course it is possible to produce sufficient boats even in GRP. I do so! Unhappy but successful.

Regards
Richard

[ancient kayaker]

My only experience of an accident in a fiberglass boat was an eye opener. A buddy and I were in an open sailboat and stalled in the wind shadow of tall trees when a large motorboat towing another one came charging by at some speed.

A sudden wind direction change or maybe a squall chose this exact moment to lay us over straight for the motorboats. My buddy was crew and unfortunately froze when we needed to gibe and it was then too late to come into the wind so we were driven between them. Neither of us had much experience of sailing and things were happening too fast to figure out a fix on the go. The best I could do was to try for a glancing blow and I'm not at all sure I did any good at all.

I saw the gunnel pushed in several inches by the bow of the second motorboat which shouldered us to one side, fortunately without a capsize. I remember the motorboat gave me a sharp rap on the noggin, which presumably served to keep me inside the boat. The wooden gunnel was badly bruised and needed some repair but there was no detectable damage to the fiberglass at all. I have had a hearty respect for that material since then.

A wood boat would have survived I am sure but with cracked ribs and planks; an Ally boat would have had a nasty dent; A steel boat might have been able to take the impact without damage, perhaps, but it would have to have been much heavier. I also recall early fiberglass experiments in my model aircraft days, when one of the club members took a big hammer repeatedly to a fiberglass engine cowling to see what it would take. he could craze it a little but it would not break. Tough stuff.

I suspect the regular materials used for building boats are used because they are good for that purpose.

[apex1]

You like blue water cruising when you agree that here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JShGZXCpLeA&feature=related


the fun starts!

Not every day of course.

[nyalex]

Yes, Richard, I looked at your thread for your next boat, but did not see any photos. Based on description, it's a long range power boat? Large one at that. I am curious as to why do you need to go that far north. Fishing? Tours? Commercial? Russians make nice icebreakers, I always wanted to take a tour on one of those, but that's the extent of my interestest in poles. My wife wants to go south poles to study pinguins, so metal would be nice for my boat, but I myself have little interest in pinguins. You mentioned, and let me know if I understand it correctly, that you built fiberglass boats? Why do you have such dislike for fiberglass? Other users seem to like fiberglass. I just love wood for classical reasons, it's just beautiful and always been used for centuries.

[nyalex]

I have an idea that can put all this material talk to rest. Since I own many guns, I can test them on various materials. I already know AK-47 round will go through tree with 3 foot/1 meter diameter, hand gun ammo won't. Not even .357 magnum. If steel is thick enough, it will stop assault rifle, I don't think aluminum going to stop AK round. I know they use fiberglass type of material for bulletproof vests, but only Russians make vest that stops AK-47 round, I think they use plate or laminate with fiberglass around, didn't study exact design of that vest. Banks use bulletproof glass, so there must be some significant strength in glass. I was trained by airborne, so I know about penetration capabilities, .300 magnum would penetrate almost anything as will .50 caliber round, yet ... when in sailing would one come across such a force??? Can anyone tell me what is the most common reason for sinking a boat?

[apex1]

Yes, Richard, I looked at your thread for your next boat, but did not see any photos. Based on description, it's a long range power boat? Large one at that. I am curious as to why do you need to go that far north. Fishing? Tours? Commercial? Russians make nice icebreakers, I always wanted to take a tour on one of those, but that's the extent of my interestest in poles. My wife wants to go south poles to study pinguins, so metal would be nice for my boat, but I myself have little interest in pinguins. You mentioned, and let me know if I understand it correctly, that you built fiberglass boats? Why do you have such dislike for fiberglass? Other users seem to like fiberglass. I just love wood for classical reasons, it's just beautiful and always been used for centuries.

There are pictures (no 1 only) in my thread.

Large is relative, that will be a much smaller boat than the last one.
The northern seas are somehow magic, especially in Winter. And the Baltic freezes soon and often. I am not interested in Penguins either.
The Russians make lousy ships, the Finnish Icebrekars are of a far better quality. (and I have a commercial license, made mainly on Icebreakers)

Yes you understood right. I build boats in wood epoxy and in Fiberglass. The latter for economical reasons only, not because the material is good. It is sufficient as I said.

When going to higher latitudes is part of your plan, you have to build in steel or aluminium. Glass and wood are completely out of the race.

The material you refer to is Kevlar! Not glass. Kevlar gives a bulletproof laminate. (glass too if it is allowed to weigh tonnes per m².)
But Penguins do´nt shoot at you, so, bulletproof is´nt what you need. You need a stable hull to withstand contact with ice, containers, sleeping whales and the aformentioned reefs.
Thats a metal hull. The fact that you can shoot straight through a 10mm Aluminium structure does´nt mean anything, a 10mm hull plating gives a very rugged hull. (just as a example)

And there is not such a big difference between steel and Al. Some advantages of the one are outweighed by some of the other one.
If it´s a boat it is a compromise, if it´s not a compromise it does´nt float.

Maybe you think again, why a boatbuilder with a serious affinity for wood / wood Epoxy, has choosen to build in metal. And that is my 6th boat in metal then! That was no joke with the link above!
When the going gets tough, the fun starts for me! A flat pond is boring, I like to feel the power of the elements from time to time. A new set of tableware and TV´s is the price to pay. (always the TV´s fail when it gets hard into it)
And going through new ice is a sort of experience one can only understand when one has done it.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Containers? You mean, steel commercial containers floating around hitting your ship? Have you hit any sleeping whales? Or icebergs? I prefer warm tropical climates. So, I need a boat that can sail anywhere if need be, but not specifically into icy waters. You seem to have great liking of nasty waters. Have you tried North Pacific around Alaska in the winter or North Atlantic? Personally, I wouldn't go there unless I absolutely had to go there. The fiberglass boats that you make ... are they any good or just commercial junk? Of course, you are absolutely right that for your purposes you need a metal ship. But can you get nuclear power on non-Russian icebreakers?

[nyalex]

I almost forgot. I did see a tri-maran sailing in rough ocean, it was some kind of circumnavigation race. It was fast and seemed stable. It's main hull was large, and two other hulls ... one on each side .... were there more for support? So, such a boat is also not good? Can it even capsize? I know catamarans capsize easy, but they don't have a good center like a tri-maran. Any thoughts on that?

[capt vimes]

I almost forgot. I did see a tri-maran sailing in rough ocean, it was some kind of circumnavigation race. It was fast and seemed stable. It's main hull was large, and two other hulls ... one on each side .... were there more for support? So, such a boat is also not good? Can it even capsize? I know catamarans capsize easy, but they don't have a good center like a tri-maran. Any thoughts on that?

ANY vessel - and i mean it - can capsize!
from the smallest monohull to the biggest trimaran... heck - even tankers (yes the big floating ilands) may capsize... it is just a question of the conditions and/or human errors...

concernig containers:
you will find those obstacles all over the seas... concentrated along the commercial ship-routes... you do not need to venture as far as the northatlantik... the numbers in the atlantik along the passat-route to the south are probably in the hundreds and still floating around - most of them semisubmerged like icebergs or fully submerged and floating just below the waterline...
they are the nastiest things one may encounter on an atlantic crossing along the comfortable bare-foot route...

beeing in a steel yacht helps a lot if hitting one of those!
they probably rip open any hull build in anything else...

[apex1]

Containers? You mean, steel commercial containers floating around hitting your ship? Have you hit any sleeping whales? Or icebergs? I prefer warm tropical climates. So, I need a boat that can sail anywhere if need be, but not specifically into icy waters. You seem to have great liking of nasty waters. Have you tried North Pacific around Alaska in the winter or North Atlantic? Personally, I wouldn't go there unless I absolutely had to go there. The fiberglass boats that you make ... are they any good or just commercial junk? Of course, you are absolutely right that for your purposes you need a metal ship. But can you get nuclear power on non-Russian icebreakers?


Whats that for a nonsense? Nuclear power?

Yes I lost a boat once, hitting something. Still do´nt know what, but sure it was something rugged. (either container or submarine)
The boat was a 53´Hatteras, but sure every other plastic brand would have fallen apart in the same way. She went under the horizon in less than 20 seconds. I had just enough time to come from the fly to the maindeck, my mate to come from saloon to maindeck, then we were in the water already. It happened halfway between Mallorca and the Bonifacio Strait, our speed was about 16kn. Due to a sailing boat nearby we were rescued within a few minutes. They heard the impact and the engines dying in a second, then our lights went off suddenly. Good luck for us.

When the higher latitudes are definetively not your cruising grounds you are probably better underway with a wood epoxy built and a ss reinforcement at the bow area. Wood is the far superior insulator (Aluminium the worst). On the barefoot routes the heatload below deck is a severe problem adding much to crew fatigue. Fatigue is one of the most underestimated problems on passagemaking.

Yes I have some affinity to severe conditions, and the North Sea / North Atlantic are familiar waters. (they provide more than enough, and sometimes more than I like, of these conditions)

Although I am very fine with tropical waters too, palms can get boring after a while.

I definetively will not go aboard a multihull for more than a afternoon trip in nice conditions. (even then I do´nt like the boats movement)

Which sort of statement would you like to hear from a boatbuilder? That I am building "commercial junk"?

Take it as it is and find your own conclusion about it. I am building in Wood Epoxy AND in Vinylester (GRP)from 32m upwards, the latter has advantages, for the builder!
And my private boats are either steel or Aluminium built (and icegoing).


Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

You are lucky to be rescued so fast when your boat sank. Good for you. Is there an instrument that would help, some kind of a sonar to show you what's under water? Yeah, Russians use nuclear icebreakers and submarines, supposed to have a lot of power and go on for long time. I heard they do tours of the poles. I was involved with wall street, never did any junky things myself, I have standards. I was always management due to my MBA in Finance from elite university. But there were plenty of analysts and brokers pushing dot.coms (junk) as prime investments yet privately we all knew dot.coms would go down. I even left my job to start my own businesses because I was asked to falsify some reports by my superiors to make things appear more attractive. So, I guess what I meant .... since you seem to have low opinion of fiberglass, what would be the quality of your boats on scale 1 to 10, ten being the best. Or do you think all fiberglass are junk type of boats, even your own? Just an opinion would do.

[apex1]

Not on the open board mate! When I commit suicide I do it a more sophisticated way!

Not all fiberglass boats are plain junk, though the advantage, as I repeatedly said, is on the builders side, not on the customers. A customer choosing voluntarily a GRP boat is a inexperienced or misinformed one. Or both.......

I am not talking about the average speed boat, dockside queen, or bass boat, I am talking what you required, a passagemaking yacht!

[nyalex]

You right, it all comes back to the use of the boat. Well, I stand by my use requirements, I just have to find the right design, material, and builder to make one. However, there is one more boat I am interested in building as well. It's one of those offshore racers, for local use. Miss GEICO is one of them, double engines, catamaran based speedboat, over 100 mph top speeds, looks like a sports car on water. I am trying to figure out what engines I would need and again ... hull material. Maybe aluminum or fiberglass? It needs to be light weight. That's all I really need and want, two boats. One passagemaker, one speedboat. I already bought some software for possible designs. Probably going to take some time to figure everything out. Yeah, if it is your primary business, I guess talking bad about fiberglass in not good. But you are an great experienced sailor, why don't you find some way to design really good fiberglass boats? Shouldn't be too hard for someone like you. That way you can be proud to stand by your product. Or is that just not possible with fiberglass?

[apex1]

Hmmm,

I was obviously not clear enough.

GRP is the weakest of all common boatbuilding materials!

But it is sufficient!
And I stand for my products, they are above average quality. (and price)

So how would one build a perfect boat when he starts with a less than perfect material?

Your raceboat will most probably be a carbon composite one.

[nyalex]

No, Richard, you are very clear. I am just trying to figure just how bad fiberglass is, that's all. I am still in shock about metal containers. That's like icebergs, no? Dangerous. You mentioned a sinking of your fiberglass boat, 58? Submarine? Do you think maybe it was a poorly build fiberglass boat or perhaps if you were doing 8 knots, not 16 ..... would that have helped? I did see a video of one production fiberglass boat catch on fire. Not pretty. It burned and sank real fast. So, in all your circumnavigations, did you ever come across pirates or hostile boaters? Perhaps commercial ship that almost hit you? How reckless are those other boaters? I know along shores there are always accidents that usually involve drunk power boaters. And ... how do you catch fish in deep sea/oceans? Do you need like 50 meter long line with huge hook to get something or normal fishing rod would get you something? Maybe you know after all your years of sailing.

[nyalex]

I looked at your gallery and ... it was very impressive. You make those boats? Very very beautiful. Makes me want to get a nice wood boat now. They all look like power, though, not sail. I don't suppose you like to sail down to Mediterrenean, South France, North Italy, maybe? There are many beautiful yachts there, yours definitely belong there. Well done. How did you get into making yachts anyway? I thought you was a sailor.

[apex1]

No, Richard, you are very clear. I am just trying to figure just how bad fiberglass is, that's all. I am still in shock about metal containers. That's like icebergs, no? Dangerous. You mentioned a sinking of your fiberglass boat, 58? Submarine? Do you think maybe it was a poorly build fiberglass boat or perhaps if you were doing 8 knots, not 16 ..... would that have helped? I did see a video of one production fiberglass boat catch on fire. Not pretty. It burned and sank real fast. So, in all your circumnavigations, did you ever come across pirates or hostile boaters? Perhaps commercial ship that almost hit you? How reckless are those other boaters? I know along shores there are always accidents that usually involve drunk power boaters. And ... how do you catch fish in deep sea/oceans? Do you need like 50 meter long line with huge hook to get something or normal fishing rod would get you something? Maybe you know after all your years of sailing.

Lots of questions...............

I do´nt catch fish, I do´nt eat fish! And killing creatures for fun is not a sport imho.
The boat was a 53´Hatteras, one of the best built fiberglass boats in her days, and by far the most rugged one. (in fact they were so much overbuilt, that almost half of the glass and resin would have been enough)
Having been much slower would of course have made a difference, but thats speculation. As well as the question of what we hit. There are not many choices though. It was solid enough to rip the boat immediately in pieces, so, it was rock or metal. Rocks do´nt float, means it was either container or submarine. I assume the latter.

Again: GRP is sufficient for boatbuilding, what else can I say?

I once came across some "hobby pirates" on the Amazon river. We have shown our shotguns (they were allowed for skeet shooting onboard) and they trolled away.
In almost ALL countries around the world one needs a license for operating boats. That means if you stay clear from the most crowded US marinas, you will hardly ever find a drunken boater playing his idiotic games.


I looked at your gallery and ... it was very impressive. You make those boats? Very very beautiful. Makes me want to get a nice wood boat now. They all look like power, though, not sail. I don't suppose you like to sail down to Mediterrenean, South France, North Italy, maybe? There are many beautiful yachts there, yours definitely belong there. Well done. How did you get into making yachts anyway? I thought you was a sailor.

No, I´m not a sailor, though I hold a commercial master license. I´m not a boatbuilder by profession either, though I own several yards.
I am a developer of Holiday resorts by profession.

I owned just one sailing boat in my life, because I soon found out, that passagemaking is more fun on a motoryacht. (and far cheaper too)
Though I´m not biased against sailing. I know the fun sailing can provide and understand people doing it. Sometimes I do it too. But my focus is on motoryachts.
Nice to notice that you like my products, thanks.

I once bought shares in a Yard but was´nt personally involved, that started my boatbuilding "carreer". That has steadily grown over more than 30 years and I got involved deeper. Now I am reducing it to the roots again, I´m not personally involved any longer.

One cannot sail the western Med. there is no wind during the Summer. But exploring it with a motoryacht is nice, I agree.
For marina hopping (as all the charter sailors do), it does´nt matter so much if you carry the sails for nothing or not.
The eastern Med. is different, there IS wind, sometimes too much. The Meltemi can blow hard, even in Summer.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

You are amazingly and correctly informative, Richard. I always enjoy talking to smart knowledgeable people with lifetime of experience. I never did any sport fishing in my life. All the fishing I do is because I eat fish, I get hungry, I am a great cook, and I can make nice meals out of fish. I might get hungry in middle of Pacific, you know? I also hate killing animals and I never hunted. Airborne was not human hunting, but defending your country as I see it, just something that needs to be done. And skills acquired are excellent, combat/survival. Well, back to sailing. When you hit your 58, where was the damage? Bottom or side? Is there some international boating license I can get? You products are amazing, what's not to like ... I have seen many boats, high end too, inside as well, and your boats ... they just have excellent creative stylish designs that would rival the best out there. You use mohagany or another wood? Finish is perfect. What can I say? Some guy on this forum said boats look nice in marinas, but you can't boil beans at sea. So, how do you boil beans in rough seas? You weld the pot to the stove or what?

[nyalex]

Any thoughts on systems such as solar panels or wind generators placed on a boat? I don't suppose they affect stability and speed ... Would a very strong, large engine installed on a sailboat seriously affect it's sailing ability, stability, speed?

[capt vimes]

Any thoughts on systems such as solar panels or wind generators placed on a boat? I don't suppose they affect stability and speed ... Would a very strong, large engine installed on a sailboat seriously affect it's sailing ability, stability, speed?

depends on their mounting position... anything mounted high up on a boat is compromising its stability because it lifts the center of gravitiy - and shift it longitudinal as well - which one should try to avoid...
on a 40 m boat with 20 t of weight adding a windgenerator/solar panels of 20-40 kg even high up will not have as much influence as on a 9 m 2 tonner...

a strong engine will not afects its stability since engines are mounted very low and heavy weights in the depth of the hull is no big concern... but it will add weight which is of course not good if your propulsion force comes from wind only...
http://www.powersail.co.nz/overview.html
those sailing yachts have 400-500 hp engines which propels them to 18 ktn of speed... do not ask me about their sailing performance rhough...

[capt vimes]

...I owned just one sailing boat in my life, because I soon found out, that passagemaking is more fun on a motoryacht. (and far cheaper too)...

how comes that?
passagemaking powerboats of appropriate length consume hundreds of liter of fuel per hour... how could that be cheaper then sailing? :confused:

[nyalex]

how comes that?
passagemaking powerboats of appropriate length consume hundreds of liter of fuel per hour... how could that be cheaper then sailing? :confused:

I also have questions about that. Not that wind is free, but shouldn't wind be cheaper than huge engine on a very large boat?

[nyalex]

OK, how about this. Sailboats have ballast. What if the larger, more powerful engine is positioned in a way that would serve as a ballast or partial ballast, therefore larger engine would not have negative weight affect on the sailing performance? Because Richard is right, modern sailboats have very weak engines for motorsailing. Although, diesel engines supposed to be very strong and last long time. One of my mercedes diesels never had any issues, strong as a tank.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_on_bi_ge/us_warship_record

According to this link, rouge wave cracked steel hull on US Navy destroyer? I heard of rouge waves before, what is that? Like a tsunami? Squall? Any of experienced sailors know what that is? And what is the whole Bermuda triangle thing with ships disappearing? Maybe someone knows something ....

[Submarine Tom]

Go to the Bermuda Triangle and do some research nyalex.

If you're lucky, you may experience a few "rouge" waves too!

Then, let us know what you learned.

-Tom

[apex1]

how comes that?
passagemaking powerboats of appropriate length consume hundreds of liter of fuel per hour... how could that be cheaper then sailing? :confused:

First, those HUNDREDS of liters are telltales, marina drivel.
Hundred hp consume about 20 liters hr right? Thats 200 for 1000hp on duty.

My largest Yacht was 50 meters and had 3100 hp installed (on propulsion), to provide 17,4 kn at half load, calm waters, full throttle.

At 12 kn cruising only 700 of those horses were on duty! Thats 140 liter per hr! It was 160 Liter in reality, with a Genny running and stabilizers active. But not hundreds.

Second

The wind is for free, yes. The wind catcher costs money, a lot of money. And replacing the rig every 5 years or so, is´nt for free.
Then you have still a diesel in a sailboat (not serviced, not liked, but running at least 20% of your sailing time). These engines are replaced almost as regularely as the rig on a average passagemaking sailboat.
In the end, all old salts will tell you the same, leaving all the canvas crap at home saves money and makes faster, safer and more enjoyable passages.
It is no coincidence that we see this "Trawler" trend, especially amongst older couples with many miles sailing under the belt. They ALL confirm, a motoryacht is the cheaper vessel on passages.

Imagine

a 65´sailing boat, purchase price 3mio$, rig about 500.000$, engine 150hp. speed 8kn.

5 years sailing 20.000nm per annum is 100.000 miles. Time under sail = 80.000 ./. 5,6 = 14285 hrs. (70% of 8kn is 5,6kn). Time under motor = 20.000 ./. 6,4 = 3125 hrs. (80% of 8kn is 6,4kn) at a power setting of about 85%
Fuel consumption is about 30lt x 3000hrs = 90.000 liters! Liter 1,20€ is 108.000€ plus 80% of the rig = 400.000€
Total= 508.000€ in 5 years of circumnavigating for propulsion only.

Now a 65´motoryacht same purchase price but 2x250 hp. (the boat has a bit more living room but thats for free, the propulsion cost is about 400.000 cheaper.
100.000 miles at 11kn is sailing time= 100.000 ./. 8,8 kn (80% of 11kn) = 11363 hrs. at a power setting of only 40%
Fuel consumption is about 40lt x 11000hrs = 440.000 ltrs = 528.000€

We did not calculate that you have to run a genny on the sailing boat while the motoryacht can handle most of the el. load by alternators.

When you go much smaller the advantage is on the side of the sailor, when you go larger, on the motorboat side.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Go to the Bermuda Triangle and do some research nyalex.

If you're lucky, you may experience a few "rouge" waves too!

Then, let us know what you learned.

-Tom

Yeah, I experienced a rouge wave in December 2004, Phuket, Thailand. I did survive that tsunami that killed what ... 230,000 and another 100,000 missing. I supposed to go out on a boat that morning, too. But I was up all night partying and went to sleep at 6 in the morning. When I woke up, Club Med along with everything else on shore was destroyed. It would be nice if somebody who actually knew something would post something with content.

[nyalex]

What about the range, Richard? Can you cross Pacific on engines alone? Or you always have to stop somewhere to refuel?

[apex1]

You can cross the Pacific, Indian and Atlantic ocean in one go with the right designed boat and in good conditions. More sensible though is a range of 5000nm at about 80% of theoretical hull speed. There are several boats achieving this, but not many.
The longest common passage is about 3000nm cross the Pacific, means every boat with less than 3000nm + 15% is far away from being a passagemaker!
Well ALL "Trawlers" being sold as such are far away from being that.

My next boat is capable of refuelling just twice on a circumnavigation! And it will accept vegetable oil as fuel.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

You can cross the Pacific, Indian and Atlantic ocean in one go with the right designed boat and in good conditions. More sensible though is a range of 5000nm at about 80% of theoretical hull speed. There are several boats achieving this, but not many.
The longest common passage is about 3000nm cross the Pacific, means every boat with less than 3000nm + 15% is far away from being a passagemaker!
Well ALL "Trawlers" being sold as such are far away from being that.

My next boat is capable of refuelling just twice on a circumnavigation! And it will accept vegetable oil as fuel.

Regards
Richard

How would you achieve refueling just twice on a circumnaviation, if it's not a secret? I am starting to get the idea of my boat. Sailboat with strong engine, good fuel capacity, monohull, wood/epoxy or aluminum, 42 to 65 feet, custom made not in developing country. You have been a huge help Richard, thanks. I will continue further reseach. My naval architect from europe is asking me a lot of questions that I still cannot answer as to what I want exactly.

[apex1]

How would you achieve refueling just twice on a circumnaviation, if it's not a secret?

There are no secrets in boatbuilding, it is all well known. Just some people ignore what is well known.

Have a fast hull (longer is faster), build just half the possible accommodation in, (mother in law has to stay ashore), install tanks instead, have a perfect designed propulsion (big engine and a CPP).
Thats it.

[narwhal]

What about the range, Richard? Can you cross Pacific on engines alone? Or you always have to stop somewhere to refuel?

Sorry to butt in here, but NYALEX you might buy a copy of Voyaging Under Power by Cap'n Robert P. Beebe; read chapters 3-7 particularly, and the remainder at your leisure and/or pleasure. This should give you a good idea of the requirements for ocean-going passage-making, and further explain the economics of diesel vs. wind power.

[apex1]

That is the right book to start with!
The contemporary look inside is here:
http://dashewoffshore.com/dashew228.asp

enjoy.........

[nyalex]

Sorry to butt in here, but NYALEX you might buy a copy of Voyaging Under Power by Cap'n Robert P. Beebe; read chapters 3-7 particularly, and the remainder at your leisure and/or pleasure. This should give you a good idea of the requirements for ocean-going passage-making, and further explain the economics of diesel vs. wind power.

Thanks, I will do that. I already bought a lot of books and dvds, internet research, etc. This forum been big help. So many people fly today, I thought I was the only one left who still loves sailing.

[nyalex]

That is the right book to start with!
The contemporary look inside is here:
http://dashewoffshore.com/dashew228.asp

enjoy.........


Yes, I looked at the link, thank you for that. Here's the thing, though, and I hope nobody takes it the wrong way. But it seems to me, and confirmed by people in the link, that in their younger days they sailed around the world in sailboats which are good. Then, as they got older, lazier, and more spoiled, it was more work than they were willing to do, and they switched to power yachts. I am not that lazy or old. I like working the sails and catching wind and I like the look of sailboats. Costs are not an issue for me, I wouldn't buy Benzes if I cared about saving money; I care about quality and more importantly, getting what I want. I guess I could go for power if it came with at least some sails .... and I know you can go to higher latitudes with metal sailboats. Based on many years of my sailing, sailboats glide, they are quiet, smooth, basically, perfect. Powerboats ... when they hit the waves, they are rough, bouncy, and can cause sea sickness in people, because instead of rolling with waves naturally as sailboat does, they punch and push through waves using engine power which creates an uncomfortable, choppy ride. And I sailed many sailboats, powerboats, and catamarans over many years.

[nyalex]

Go to the Bermuda Triangle and do some research nyalex.

If you're lucky, you may experience a few "rouge" waves too!

Then, let us know what you learned.

-Tom

Here's one thing I learned. Instead of airborne, I should have served in the Navy. That way I could have droppped depth charges on a submarine. That would create a few "rouge" waves too!

[Submarine Tom]

Well, Happy New Year to you too!

[nyalex]

Well, Happy New Year to you too!

What can I say, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, basic law of physics.

[apex1]

Yes, I looked at the link, thank you for that.

That would be a full weekend of reading and comprehending. So, you did´nt.

Motoryachts are not necessarely less comfortable in a seastate than sailing boats though the average, fat trawler is, yes.

It is not just that the sailors get lazy when growing older (there are electric and hydraulic helpers available), they get experienced too. They notice that they run the engine far more than expected and welcome. And then there is a conclusion, a logical one!

and let me reply to your mail here:

I understand, Richard. I don't think we are going to agree on a perfect boat, because you like north seas with motoryachts and I love sailboats in tropical countries. Polish fuel? How do you do that? You did not fully explain how is motoryacht fuel is cheaper than cost of sail replacement and range issues of carrying enough fuel to cross Pacific, for example. I know these are technical issues, but they are important. Sailboat with big engine is a serious no-no? Even if it can be a partial ballast in mounting it? I have an naval architect in europe that can design what I need, but I cannot even tell him what I need yet. It's so frustrating. But you have been extremely helpful so thank you for that. I thought maybe you have photos of your previous boats. It would be nice to see them.

You misunderstood! I like passagemaking, that includes the higher latitudes, you prefer the barefoot route (like 99%)

Fuel polishing is handled a hundred times in different sources on the internet.

Do some legwork yourself!

I did elaborate on the sail vs motor topic, and you would have found a exhausting article about it at Dashews homepage if you would have read it!

I am not willing, and feel no obligation, to provide a free "Tutorial for the prospective circumnavigator" here!

Of course I have pictures of my former boats, but I like to keep my anonymity and do´nt post them.

If the intention of your mail was to get me a bit upset, I can tell you, it worked!


A last question:
how did you choose a NA, not knowing which sort of vessel you require? None of them (as far as I know) is equally good in all camps.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

No, Richard, it was never my intention to upset you. I did look at the link, I am a very fast reader, elite ivy university, remember? And I do not work all day, I own companies that are managed, my stock market invesments and trades are longer term, I am not a day trader, so I have all the time in the world all day and all year long. That's how I like it and that's how I set it up. I don't want to say I am a genius, but I can beat any computer in chess on hardest level. If anyone interested, ask me, and I will tell you how. I do a lot of my own research on internet and other sources, but it's good to get personal opinion from an experienced sailor as well. If you do not wish to share any advice, that's fine, there are other sources and you have done more than enough already, I truly thank you for that. The good news is that I decided on my boat. Sailboat, staysail schooner, Van Dam Nordia makes one, 85 classic schooner out of aluminum. However, as you, Richard, pointed out, that may be too big, so I will see if I can downsize it to 50 or 60 feet. My naval architect from France will do all the drawings. Now just comes a task of how to install all modern systems on it, my personal options, and minor modifications to design to have the right look. It will be one of the most beautiful sailboats when I am done. Thanks again to all of you who contributed and I hope sailors continue to share information with others, I know I will when I become an old and experienced sailor. I am also an expert in martial arts, aikijutsu, kenjutsu, ninjutsu, and aikido. I trained police/correctional officers, FBI agents, and Navy SEALs. I even trained West Point cadets, they had their own jujutsu instructors, but somewhat inferior. Anybody who knows me knows that I am a stand up guy, and I do no lie and I do not like to be accused of lying. I have no need to lie, to anyone for any reason. Buddhism is a good religion, one of the reason I do business in Thailand and spend a lot of time there. Patience is one good thing that everybody should learn.

[apex1]

Thats a proper yard, no doubt about it! And the 85´is a boat capable of what you have in mind. Right off the shelve.

But you would need crew (at least two).

Installing modern equipment in a old "shell" is not rocket science. Every NA worth the salt can do that.

Do´nt go below the 55 to 60´ you will regret!

I know the tales, that almost all on the barefoot routes are looking for something in the 44 to 48 range. Some even smaller.
But these people live on a budget, some on a tight budget! That dictates their "dreams" and "requirements".
Any boat below 55´is a pain in the ass on passages. Too small, too much motion, too slow to escape a front!

65´is the size!

And van Dam, Gouwerok, Royal Huisman, Holland Yachtbouw, build it for you.

Never build a boat in France! Better in Nepal! Not that they know anything in Nepal, but they work from time to time! The French are the laziest people in the entire world, so are the products!

The "clusters" you find in the Netherlands and Germany are the secret behind the quality.
ALL of them are working more or less together. There is no real competition. The hulls are made at one place for all of them, the cabinetry is made at about 5 places for all of them, and the welders are travelling like a caravane between the places they are needed.
Apart from Viareggio in Italy there is no other such spot in the world (and the Italians have given up on quality to a certain extend (unfortunately).

So, you are right in the Netherlands. (would be better to have a Dutch NA too)

Regards
Richard
PS I calmed down soon, though I have a problem to believe that you did "inhale" the Dashew articles.

[nyalex]

Richard, you may remember a Steven Seagal movie Under Siege 2 where one smart bad guy leader says: "Assumption is a mother of all ffff ups". I had to read and memorize over 5,000 pages of extremely hard material in just 4 months, with midterms, finals, projects, quizes, etc. And I was running almost straight As. I have 5 specialties in undergrad and grad programs. Philosophy, Chemistry, Psychology, Finance, Accounting. I was pre-med, minors in international business, etc. They didn't play, either. Professors were out of most elite universities. I am also a professional photographer, one of my companies does photo work, so I can look through a thousand photos in a matter of minutes. So, if some couple want to post lots of photos with some text, believe me, it's not that hard for me to read it real fast. I can read Dostoyevsky in 2 days, English or Russian. I speak several languages. Do not doubt my word. Now, did I fully absorbed everything I read? Maybe/maybe not. I added the link to my favorites and I will be going back to it for reference when I need it. Van Dam Nordia stopped making 50s a while back, so I guess you are right about 55 minimum, that's their smallest yacht currently. I don't want you do be upset about free advice or whatever, so feel free not to answer. But with staysail schooner of 55 to 65 feet, I was thinking do I need bow thrusters or I can handle the boat without them? Again, not intentions to make you upset.

[nyalex]

Here is how to beat computer in chess. As all know, computer can outthink any human, including Kasparov. So, what I do is view it as a battlefield. I make a V-formation, pawns up front, back up by bishops and horses, and others. Impenetrable. When computer attacks one pawn it's immediately replaced by back up something to hold the line. Then, I open the line in one place only. That is the only place for computer to attack, it's an ambush. Then computer moves are highly limited and it's easy to see it's intentions. I hope to gain advantage of one pawn, then I exchange everything one for one. I end up with pawn and king, computer has only king, my pawn becomes a queen, check mate, say goodnight. Who's your daddy? Me, that's who. Now, computer is very smart, so he will often see this and try to force a draw, and it's very good at forcing draws. My success rate is checkmate I win 35%, 25% I lose my making some mistake, and 40% we end up in a draw. I can destroy any Kasparov/Karpov using the same method. Unless they know what I am doing and prevent me from building my V-formation out of pawns, which is unlikely cause I know exactly how to do that no matter what computer or person does. Use it wisely, grasshoppers. That's free.

[apex1]

No thrusters needed.

Learn to make "hard" maneuvres. Hard and bold, you get the junk ito the place. All the "marina barstool kings" are sissies! They do´nt know how to handle a single prop vessel. In nearly 40 years at sea I have had two times where I had to give up my attemp, and one (1) situation where I would have loved to have a tug or thruster. But of course I had to manage without.
You do´nt need what you do´nt have. (can you change it?) It makes you just think a bit ahead. Not the worst solution for many a problem.

And no, sorry I wasted my time on a movie at 18 or so. I do not even know what you are talking about. Do´nt own a TV! I am a doer, not a consumer.



Hmm,
do´nt play chess. Too aggressive. I did when I was a child, found out that the successful players all had a deficit in personality. Not my ballpark.

Regards
Richard

nono I do´nt believe you want to upset me. I just felt you did not enough of the legwork yourself.

[nyalex]

This NA in France specializes in wooden boats, specifically nice schooners. They pass boyancy and stability tests. Some new French requirement, if I understand it correctly.

[apex1]

Not Bombigher / his daughter? Or Patrick Balta?

[nyalex]

No, but France has many NAs. Since I am working with him, I have to keep his name confidential at this time. But I was thinking about getting French plans, then Dutch plans. With two set of plans approach the right boatbuilder to see which plans are better or maybe use aspects of both of them since the boat will be of same size same displacement same rig. Like I said before, I just started the process, it's going to take some time, I am not in a rush. And I am only going to make one boat, keep her forever. Just one perfect boat, as to my understanding of perfection. And that offshore racer for fun out of carbon fiber. That's it. That's enough to keep me very happy.

[apex1]

If it was that easy..............

I would have kept my first boat, a 48´Swan, a perfect boat. Ah no, that was a sailing boat, and I had no knowledge for singlehanded operation.
The second was a perfect boat. Ah no, that was a too slow Hatteras 53´and I scuttled her.
Ok the third was nice. Yes, another 53´Hatteras. But, after a while too small, too much fuel for the mile. I sold her.
Nahh, then the 4th? Oh yes, a perfect boat! 31,5 meter Lowland, a so named "pocket Megayacht" a real perfect boat! Just not the range I found out I wanted.
The 5th? Hmmm, she was a nice one! A perfect boat! 33,5 meter Haakvoort, to a Willem de Vries Lentsch design. Absolutely perfect! Except the accommodation, I had to sleep in the basement! I did not like that.
6th? Oh what a beauty, 36 meter steel / Alu, and main deck accommodation! Full width! (The NA said it does´nt matter to have no walkaround decks, though I was in doubt)
It was a mess!
The 7th? All Aluminium, walk around side decks, 42 meter, jets, a perfect boat! Just she was not capable of a sufficient speed as promised! I went sour, the NA ducked for a year, and the yard went bankrup.
The NO 8? Ahh, what a perfect boat! 50 meter, steel Alu. walkaround sidedecks, accommodation at bridge level, sufficient speed, 5500 miles range, economical cruising speed. A perfect boat! I kept her for over 7 years and made 2 and a half circumnavigations on her.

But 8 crew!!!

My next one will be the perfect boat I´m sure!

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Interesting, Richard. If you only had enough for 48 Swan, then got more cash, got 50m aluminum, OK, understandable. However, it seems to me that maybe you didn't have clear idea of what you really needed. What if you knew what you know now, and suppose you had enough cash, then your first boat may have been 50m aluminum, not Swan. The way I work is ... I think about what I want first, exactly. I do a lot of research, talk to everybody, then I do it. Measure 5 times, cut once? Something like that. Although, in your case, probably not a big deal, cause you can always sell Swan 48 for nice money and get another one. It's not like car from Toyota that you buy for $35000 car tax finance charges, then trade in after 5 years for $6000. I am sure good boats don't depreciate that much in value. I always loved sailboats, schooners in particular, so I don't see myself changing ships at all. Believe it or not, I had ideas about my own boat since I was 10 years old. My first trip on a boat and Rafael Sabatini's Captain Blood books. The whole idea of sailing around the world, doing what you want, answer to no one. True freedom.

[apex1]

The Swan 48 in my days, was what a 100´ carbon racer would be today. Unaffordable for even the upper middle class.

If your story is true, you are a bit in my situation, just some years later, and at a different age.
I was a nappy pooper at 23 when I purchased the Swan. But already a well established businessman since 6 years. I was dreaming like you, all about the freedom and peace out there.

Well reality is different, and was already in my days.

Hope you get at least a bit of the dream into reality............

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

I am not looking for peace, that's not possible, not based on any history books I've red, and I pretty much read most of them. There is always some kind of war or conflict, usually for money, power, land - all the things that make me sick about land. Ocean always appealed to me as free place away from greed and corruption. But ... primarily, I look for freedom and fun. I always enjoyed water activities, from sailing to swimming and diving. Fishing, too. I feel it's time to say goodbye to land and go live on water for a while, maybe forever. I will stop by land, of course, I have a few favorite spots. There is a degree of paradise in tropical Thailand and such. So, I am more positive about dreams become reality, that won't happen by itself, you have to make it, in my experience. But possible. Sea is unforgiving and a large degree of honesty needs to present just to survive it. Sailors are some of the few people in the world I tend to trust, almost completely. Not lawyers, not even my own.

[apex1]

All not easy,

if you can afford it they envy that, if you can´t they fuck you.

Have enemies only, you can rely on their behaviour! Friends are what gets you down! They are not what one assumes.

Clear, fixed rules with enemies make a good and reliable life. The wishy washy with "friends" is what kills you.

[nyalex]

All not easy,

if you can afford it they envy that, if you can´t they fuck you.

Have enemies only, you can rely on their behaviour! Friends are what gets you down! They are not what one assumes.

Clear, fixed rules with enemies make a good and reliable life. The wishy washy with "friends" is what kills you.

You may be right here. I little depressing, but probably true. I am in the middle of resizing 85 topsail schooner from Nordia to 65 feet. But I like how it is in 85 feet/23 foot beam. So, now I am confused a little. 85 has great speed and stability, but how easy is it to handle? The biggest boat I sailed was 58 footer, I have not idea how 85 footer handles. Will they even have space in marinas for something that big .... probably need bow thrusters, too. And crew, and you mentioned before, Richard. Then I am wondering if changing it from aluminum to wood is possible using same dimentions, or it woud have to be completely redone, since original is aluminum. On enemies/friends ... it's real easy to make enemies in big cities like NY/Bangkok/Moscow. But I got a country home in Pennsylvania, and there some nice friendly country folks there whom I would not call enemies. Maybe large cities are not best places for making friends, too competitive.

[apex1]

Altering a design is almost always a expensive way. Finding a design that fits is less costly. Even a fully custom design is the better solution. Van Dam has some boats in the 65´range I remember. But I do´nt remember the style.

A 85´is twice the boat than a 65´ you know? You cannot keep it in "Bristol shape" with family crew. A 65´is already hard to service for some 3 people.

No, you cannot alter a metal design to wood or GRP! That is a complete new design.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Yes, you right, Richard. Nordia has 65 footers but not with schooner rig. Not the same look either. Those are more like pilothouses. I guess I will have to design one from scratch. But it's OK, I have many photos and specifications, should not be too hard. My NA told me going from 42 to 85 is 8 times the boat and costs. I know boats are 3 dimentional. I am more concerned with getting the right boat than costs. Well, it looks like I am ready to submit my requirments to the architect. That's good progress. Thanks, Richard. And others who posted on this forum/internet.

[apex1]

Good luck............

[nyalex]

Thanks. I think I got it from here.

[nyalex]

OK, let's see if anyone knows about this. If I build my schooner in Neitherlands and I want to register it in USA and get HIN here. I read the official regulations, but in reality ... are they going to make problems for me for not manufacturing boat using USA yard or something like that? Customs can be a nationalistic xenophobic pain in my posterior, even in USA. Current government attitude, and I quote what one of them said to me: "We can do whatever we want."

[apex1]

Not much of a response on that.

Of course you can register every boat in every country worldwide when it is compliant with the classification rules.

You may find this one coming close to your demand!
http://www.nigelirens.com/FRAMEmagbcruisingnotes.htm

It is a wood epoxy built, having less heat load under tropical sun than a Al. vessel.
And I could lead you to some extremely good places to build it.

Regards
Richard

[nyalex]

Good link. Let me see. I have British NA with royal whatever doing 2 large designs and one 16 footer design (boat in tow) for recreation, French NA is supposed to be doing one design, but he's taking his sweet time ... I might do one aluminum design with Dutch, but since it's a classic schooner I feel I should use classic materials. So, wood/epoxy seems to be a prime choice, cold mold construction. I should have plans complete soon enough. For builders, custom boat builder in Thailand gave quote of $350,000 for 60 footer. Some people I know in USA suggested building it here in a warehouse, maybe using Cherubini people as consultants/builders or with own professional crew. Haven't checked into Neitherlands builders yet. It's going to look like 85 Van Dam Nordia Classic Topsail schooner in 60 feet, with other designs in 50 and 65. That's my progress so far. It seems lots of certifications can be foregone if it's boat for myself and I don't sell it for 5 years, according to US regulations. I don't know what kind of certifications required in Europe. All designs are by professional NAs, so they all should float and sail well. Who did you have in mind, Richard, and what type of costs I would be looking in Neitherlands, if you maybe know a range?

[apex1]

A 60ft at 350.000$ is just crap! That is sure. But with a telephone pole as mast..........

Lets see what your NA brings on the table and how serious the adventure gets, before talking the building part.

[nyalex]

A 60ft at 350.000$ is just crap! That is sure. But with a telephone pole as mast..........

Lets see what your NA brings on the table and how serious the adventure gets, before talking the building part.

The good new is that hard part is over. 90% is deciding what you want. The rest is relatively easy. Shouldn't be too hard once the building plans are completed. What makes you think Thai builder (european guy with thai labor and yard) is so bad? As long as he sticks to design ... ? I don't know about this, but skilled labor there is less than $2 per hour.

[apex1]

Lets wait and see how much comes true in the end.

There have been very good yachts built in Thailand, no doubt. Philanderer was one of the first. Long ago.
But it is not only low wages what makes the price and value of a yacht. Skills and efficiency are key factors too. In both fields Asia is far behind European standards.
And ALL equipment costs the same here and there (or nearly the same). So, when you get a boat at 25% of the average price, you get 25% of the average value. A higher quality / value is possible only with a perfect project management and quality control. Both not easy and not for free.

[nyalex]

Lets wait and see how much comes true in the end.

There have been very good yachts built in Thailand, no doubt. Philanderer was one of the first. Long ago.
But it is not only low wages what makes the price and value of a yacht. Skills and efficiency are key factors too. In both fields Asia is far behind European standards.
And ALL equipment costs the same here and there (or nearly the same). So, when you get a boat at 25% of the average price, you get 25% of the average value. A higher quality / value is possible only with a perfect project management and quality control. Both not easy and not for free.

Thai builder's original price was starting at over $500,000. He came down after I pointed out that minimum wage in Thailand is less than $1 per hour, closer to 50 cents per hour. I don't know how hard it could be to follow professional NA plans ... but I did have something built in Thailand before. Land Rover 88, 1963, for offroad. Thai guy took it apart, rebuilt it from scratch. Cleaned rust from chassis, welded/painted, rebuilt diesel engine, etc. Great job, not expensive, and can't tell you how much fun offroad, very capable. So I know they can do good work and they are not stupid. I just don't know how good they are at building boats. There are other issues, too, like bringing a foreign built boat to US. They have some requirement that it has to be done through US boat dealer. Have to look in that more. Didn't get confirmation from Cherubini if they will build the boat. Anyway, it's all at beginning stages now. Lots of yards and builders available. I am not worried.