Wharram Tiki wrecked in Thailand

[sloopjb]

The 'Low price catamarans' thread which unfotunately degenerated into a farce was however an informative insight into the ramifications of building 'at a distance' . The experiences of the dissatisfied customers and the reaction to their complaints were astounding. It would seem that one customer was quite correct in doubting the seaworthyness of his newly completed Tiki 38.

[peterAustralia]

There are a couple threads about this

am not sure who is right

the idea that the unfinished boat, broke anchor in a storm, hit the shore and only then broke in 2, sounds plausible. An alternative explanation is plausible too. The trouble is that there is no independent auditor - examiner to get to the bottom of the entire episode.

I think the moderator is not too keen for this thread to continue, so chances are he will kill it very quickly, as is his right.

[sloopjb]

Yes Peter, it is unclear what happened though it is coincidental. She was supposedly in a Marina in Pattaya when her mast fell, breaking the crossbeams. The boat was up for sale and had sailed about 500 Nm. so is describing her as unfinished some kind of mitigation? And I thought plausable deniabilty was the realm of crooked politicians...

[propshaft]

Yes Peter, it is unclear what happened though it is coincidental. She was supposedly in a Marina in Pattaya when her mast fell, breaking the crossbeams.

The boat was anchored outside of marina, unattended, not in marina. Looks like hulls and beams are not damaged.

[RHP]

Thats very sad, whatever the circumstances. I was at that marina 8 months ago and saw the yacht.

[peterAustralia]

in defence to the boat builder if you look at the photos it does appear that the lashings failed.

The beams appear unbroken and the lashings are frayed. So evidence suggest in this case the reason for breakup was the lashings failing under huge loads they were not designed for

If the hull was built badly, then you would expect the lashings to hold and the beams or hull to fail.

Maybe it was rot in the lashings, maybe the lashings were done by someone else.

I cant comment on the boat company, I do not know if they are good or not. But in this case it does appear that it was the lashings that failed, not bad boat building practice. Was not the builders fault that the anchor failed. We do not know who did the lashings and if they used the right rope.

I know the builder has been getting a bit of biffo, but looking at the photos, in this case looks as though he did nothing wrong

[sloopjb]

Peter, you say that "in this case looks as though he did nothing wrong" and that the responsible party is whoever fitted the inadequate lashings. That looks like a contradiction to me...and reminds me of the Shaggy song. How did it go again?? Oh yes..."It wasn't me.."
Again your post is all about plausible deniabilty....

[propshaft]

Peter, you say that "in this case looks as though he did nothing wrong" and that the responsible party is whoever fitted the inadequate lashings. That looks like a contradiction to me...and reminds me of the Shaggy song. How did it go again?? Oh yes..."It wasn't me.."
Again your post is all about plausible deniabilty....


sloopjp, seems like you are next flusher here. Your posts are biased gossips, no facts.

Was the boat on water for 7-8 months? Did the owner provide any maintenance of lashings? If the boat is anchored unattended next to fishing village, could fishermen cut the ropes?

This accident proves only one thing: Tiki idea with ropes does not work today.

[sloopjb]

Propshaft. it also looks like you might be the builder in question. I understand the boat has remained in the builders possession throughout and was being offered for sale by him at the time of her demise. Surely he is then responsible for maintenance and providing adeqate supervision.

[propshaft]

Propshaft. it also looks like you might be the builder in question.
No, but I keep my boat in that marina.


I understand the boat has remained in the builders possession throughout and was being offered for sale by him at the time of her demise. Surely he is then responsible for maintenance and providing adeqate supervision.

Is that Your guess, or You know it for sure? Can You prove that boat belongs to the builder? Can You post a copy of her registration certificate saying that 'builder in question' is the owner?

[propshaft]

What sloopjb said, summary:

Lie #1
She was supposedly in a Marina in Pattaya
Now we know that she was anchored outside

Lie #2
when her mast fell, breaking the crossbeams
We can see from photos that crossbeams are not broken

Lie #3
inadequate lashings
Is there any proof of that? Was the boat surveyed? Can You post photo of 'inadequate lashing' or survey report?

Lie #4
boat has remained in the builders possession
There is no proof of that.

Keep posting sloopjb, I like Your posts... but defamation should be better prepared.

[sloopjb]

My intention in posting was that I thought that the demise of the boat should be brought to the notice of the many who read the original thread.
That thread deseves an epilogue, not a sequel, Propshaft.
The boat is posted for sale on BahtSold as a repossession.

[propshaft]

My intention in posting was that I thought that the demise of the boat should be brought to the notice of the many who read the original thread.
That thread deseves an epilogue, not a sequel, Propshaft.

You are mixing facts with Your own guesses and thus mislead the readers.

The boat is posted for sale on BahtSold as a repossession.
OK, that post says:
http://www.bahtsold.com/detail.php?id=43092
Category: Boats & Marine Sale/Rent
Area: East Coast
City: Pattaya
Contact Name: Jaap G. Kla...
Telephone: 081.....
Description: Built '09 in Thailand Design James Wharram Designs Reposession: Paid Bt. 7.5 mil....

Now my question is: where do You see name of builder???

[Squidly-Diddly]

needing lash their own stuff just prior to the storm.

[propshaft]

Seems like sloopjb is pissed off and will run away...
But new just registered clones with single post will join the thread :D

[sloopjb]

Squidly-didley - no doubt it could be
Propshaft - the last resort of the ignorant and desperate: accusation, vitriol and shouting...or is that Pattaya

[propshaft]

Propshaft - the last resort of the ignorant and desperate: accusation, vitriol and shouting...or is that Pattaya

Yes I agree with You, but You have started this thread with accusations!

Now once we all know the truth, why don't You say 'sorry, I was wrong'? Why don't You just close this thread?

[sloopjb]

Propshaft, it wasn't an accusation I started with, it was an inference...

[propshaft]

Propshaft, it wasn't an accusation I started with, it was an inference...

Oohh I see... :D
Besides it seems this 'inference' was the only purpose of Your registration here.

[sloopjb]

and what was yours?

[propshaft]

and what was yours?
... asked Junior Member with 9 posts! :D

So, do You agree that Your 'inference' was wrong? That there is no proof that the accident is builder's fault?

[sloopjb]

Junior member Propshaft,
I repeat for your benefit -
the last resort of the ignorant and desperate: accusation, vitriol and shouting...or is that Pattaya.

[propshaft]

Junior member Propshaft,
I repeat for your benefit -
the last resort of the ignorant and desperate: accusation, vitriol and shouting...or is that Pattaya.

OK, situation is clear for me.

[TeddyDiver]

A smilie eating popcorn :D

[sloopjb]

got some for me?

[M-Sasha]

A smilie eating popcorn :D

Hmmm,
something very strange with boatbuilding in Thailand.
At the end they all go nuts, builder, client, half of the Forum......................:rolleyes:

so, go ahead folks...................................................:D

[sloopjb]

Just for the record, I'm not a client nor do I know any. I do have a feeling that a certain builder's been posting though...
As for half the forum? Who knows? Only time will tell.

[bill broome]

"if you want it done right, do it yourself."

[peterAustralia]

people

we do not know the facts

all we have is some photos. We do not have other independent sources of information. We do not have a builders survey in public domain to my knowledge.

I am not saying that the builder is free of responsibility. All I am saying is that looking at the photos it seems it was that the lashings failed. Everything else is just assumption. You cannot lay fault with one person or another without being fully informed. Since we have limited information we cannot make conclusions.

There is another blog going around with a builder that took his tiki to NZ to have it finished because he had concerns. So I do not the truth. too hard to make conclusions, there is no point in so much speculation with so little hard information.

[RHP]

Great entertainment as usual..... but lets not let facts get in the way of a good story.

[propshaft]

Just for the record, I'm not a client nor do I know any.

Yes, just a guy sitting in Holland but very concerned about boat wrecked in Thailand... :D


I do have a feeling that a certain builder's been posting though...

You have wrong feeling again, as usual. But I am sure builder will join this discussion soon! :D

Your lie has been proved already (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/wharram-tiki-wrecked-thailand-29022.html#post296496).

Again, next time defamation should be better prepared. Try to find more facts and evidences, only slogans and fabrications do not work.

[propshaft]

people
all we have is some photos. We do not have other independent sources of information. We do not have a builders survey in public domain to my knowledge.

I am not saying that the builder is free of responsibility. All I am saying is that looking at the photos it seems it was that the lashings failed. Everything else is just assumption. You cannot lay fault with one person or another without being fully informed. Since we have limited information we cannot make conclusions.


Peter, thanks for Your unprejudiced input.
Yes, we don't know full story, but there is no evidence that it was builder's fault. Moreover, limited facts we have show opposite.
So why do we have to listen this bullshit 'from Holland'? :D

[peterAustralia]

I do not know the answer to the story.

I am not siding one way or the other.

I do not like the rude way the builder posted in other threads. He may have had grounds to be rude, but feel it does him no favours. Maybe to be a business owner in a competitive field you need to be aggressive to survive.

The other blog, this one
http://naturalhigh-adventures.com/warren-blog/?currentPage=2

does raise more issues. Maybe they are unrelated. In other words the failure in Thailand was caused by lashing failure (anyone dispute that?). The issues from the guy in NZ relate to the beam trough strength.

Was the beam trough built to plans, is it strong enough? Is is OK for the builder to use their judgment and use different materials (we do not even know if this has happened or not) I do not like the idea of accusations of defamation, when people may be just thinking out loud. Equally it is not right to accuse people of error, when a lot is based on supposition.

Too early to come to conclusions. Do we have an independent survey that the boat in NZ was not built strongly enough? Do we have independent survey saying the beam troughs were not built to plans?

In the above blog he seems to be of the opinion that in the boat in Thailand the mast fell down, then the beams broke, and then the boat got washed ashore. Using logic this does not add up. If the boat broke up at sea, why would the anchor fail? Logic suggests that the anchor failed first, and then the boat got washed ashore, and only then did the mast and lashings fail. The idea that both happened independently must be a massive coincidence, and I feel that coincidences do not happen much in the real world.

The writer of the blog seems to think the boat was at sea in a storm, the mast fell down, the boat broke in two (whilst at sea) and then by coincidence the anchor failed, and then the boat came ashore... does not add up to me.,,. logic suggests that the anchor failing started the process of events.

Would a normal catamaran survive being washed ashore in a storm, hmmm maybe yes, maybe no, but it could not be guaranteed.

So, what do we know. We know that the lashings failed, We do not know who tied them and with whcih rope. Do we expect lashings to withstand the massive forces involved in a boat being washed ashore in a storm (massive turning forces of breaking waves, boat may have been side on to the waves)

and also we know the fellow in NZ has concerns. But we do not know if his concerns are justified or not.

It is always a good idea to label fact as fact... and clearly label opinion as opinion. Keep them separate, keeps everyone out of trouble.

peer

[raoul bianchett]

Seems like sloopjb is pissed off and will run away...
But new just registered clones with single post will join the thread :D

Let me clarify some points :

1. the boat went ashore in a storm as the anchor did not hold

2. lashing partially broke after the boat rolled on the beach for 2 days , hit by the waves

3. no structural damages , as shown in the photo i took last week in my factory

Demonstration of strenght of this construction in cedar - multiaxial

Nothing structural failed , hulls , beams or so .

We had to repaint partially the boat and fix a number of scratches and some broken parts , but nothing mayor . Lucky owner , that did not take good care of the boat .

We wil sail that boat to Philippines in Christmas .

For the getlemen happy about the huge damages ...sorry , next time , ok ?


RB

[raoul bianchett]

Forgot to say that we had to disassemble the boat as we decided to fix it in the new factory in Bangpakong , and the boat was waay to wide to be road transported .

I think the Tiki will be launched again in october and kept overthere in Bangpakong , so who will be here in Thailand is invited to join for a ride ( bring the beers , i will provide the girls ...)

The boat has been sold to a thai persons , that is a long time friend of the yard .... good guy , but not very careful of his boats ...

[raoul bianchett]

Propshaft. it also looks like you might be the builder in question. I understand the boat has remained in the builders possession throughout and was being offered for sale by him at the time of her demise. Surely he is then responsible for maintenance and providing adeqate supervision.

Hi Sloojb ,


the Tiki has been sold months before ...

"Surely he is then NOT responsible for maintenance and providing adeguate supervision" .. so seems to me , about myself .

The Tiki was not inside the Marina , but at the anchor in the bay near the Marina ;

What a pity ... it has not been damaged a lot and is now back in shape ... so there wil not have anything more to discuss ....

" the mast falled down and the boat broke in 2 parts " ...... it seems somebody's dream more then a report :-)


After the photos of the boat back in shape and ready to sail again .... no more comments .... why ? ;)

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[peterAustralia]

Roaul,

It is 11.40pm here, and may be a bit late there, so will understand if you do not answer promptly.

Are you able to elaborate on the concerns raised by the owner of the Tiki 38 in NZ. I may be mistaken, but a quick glance seems to indicate that the beam troughs were built out of nida core and not solid timber. I guess this is a big issue the the fellow in NZ.

http://naturalhigh-adventures.com/warren-blog/?currentPage=2

I guess there is some degree of judgment to be used by the builder. I can see from the photos that the NZ tiki the hulls were built with cedar. I also assume that often the builder changes small things to accommodate the wishes of the owner.



This is commentary

I was trying to follow the email trail. It started off politely enough, and then got nasty. Maybe after someone says something the goodwill quickly disappears. Based on the email thread I got the following impression

Your not a fan of Wharram, in particular the lashing method? I would put it to you that it may be true that the Tiki does not conform to ISO standards, but Wharram is a brand with a very good reputation with many built. I guess what I am getting at, is that it is OK for the owner to want a boat that is not to your taste, but this issue is were the beam troughs built as per plans, and if not were they built to another method was that method sufficiently strong.

end of comment

So it seems we have got to the bottom of the Tiki that broke at lashings in Thailand. That seems resolved. This is good. Now moving on to the second issue (if you go by what you read in the internet) is that of the Tiki now is NZ, the owner has concerns about the beam troughs.

He may have been unduly concerned by what happened to the Tiki in Thailand and feared the same may happen to him at sea. Perhaps he got overly concerned. Maybe he did not realise the huge forces involved in a boat caught on a lee shore in a surf zone. Chances are these massively exceed the loads found when sailing, even in big seas.

He seems to have concerns that a different methods was used to construct the beam troughs. Is this the case? It is also possible that a different method was used, but that method was sufficiently strong. It is also possible that as the boat was incomplete some work work on this area was yet to be done.

more comment
Reading another thread that occurred in this forum a while back, it quickly got nasty. In this thread we have been able to get to the bottom of one of 2 issues fairly quickly without resorting to too much rudeness. What is the difference. Maybe in this thread there is a desire to concentrate on facts, and put emotions to one side.

again I would like to stress, I am trying to be impartial and neutral. Think everyone would be better off if more emphasis was put on facts and less on accusations.

thats it .. am off to sleep .. after midnight here.

[raoul bianchett]

Hello Peter ,

i will try here below to give the answers that you kindly required .
English is not my first language ,please be patient .

@ We have been required , at the beginning of all this , to design and build a Tiki 38 , SIMILAR to the original one , but modified as follows :

- increased displacement of about 5-8 % , in order to carry more weight
- avoid plywood , as the local one is too heavy , and it is easy to notice that most Tikis around the world are floating too deep , then lazy to tack and slow .
- we increased the camber of the decks
- we decided to build in sandwich of cedar - biaxial , for the hulls , and in nidacore for decks and furniture .
- beams are in plywood and cedar , with biaxial/epoxy .

@ Our Tiki is lighter and much faster then another Tiki , as tested in the sea . Of course it is not a main project for us , so we did not perform extensive tests and i don't have much data to share . I can collect them in a future , surely .

@ I noticed an excellent payload , easily carrying 8 to 10 persons and still floating higher then the theoretical waterline . Very easy to tack , within seconds , using only the rudders .

This boat is built in composite , and it must be considered a fiberglass composite construction . Absolutely nothing to see with Plywood / epoxy , plywood on frames , as designed by JW. Our boat is a hull with keels as appendix , fitted with bulkheads and with some structural furniture , floors and stiffeners .

Original Tiki is a structure of stringers and frames , planked with a plywood skin .

2 different construction techniques , both well known of course .

Now the Beam Through : they are heavily laminated and a plywood is incapsulated , just to add material where the locating pin is going through the bulkheads .There is an epoxy bushing too .

The load is properly distributed , as only the biaxial and triaxial with epoxy can do , as they are wrapped around the edges of the deck . I evaluate the construction as 30 % lighter then the original design , with an enormous strenght , difficult to evaluate , but with a huge safety factor .

I tried a few times to explain to the owner of the NZ Tiki , our construction technique , but this requires some knowledge of composite construction .

Nidacore : the core is not so important in this sense ; anyway large areas are in solid glass , in that area , as the core has been removed after laying some layers on one side .

You are right , i don't like JW designs . I can accept a lashed construction but not lashed with locating pins ...at the end the pins take all the load , if only the ropes get a little loose , and this is what happens every time . It would be much better to bolt through all the beam then .. or glue down . But the ropes are only there to simulate a 'polinesian' construction , and i don't like this .

Like an heavy make-up , make women look more exotic , but at then end ...wait morning to see ...;)

I build what a client requires , with limits , but i still keep my opinions .

I think that the Tiki 38 is not the best boat for long range sailing ..... this was my opinion , that caused so much rumors ..... i insulted their toys :rolleyes:

There are many persons that sailed the world on a JW .... sure , but still i don't think it is the best boat to do this .

I have seen that rudders lashings are nothing but troubles ... they always get loose when go on reverse ... in the modern world we don't need to simulate old techniques .... we can build bronze hinges for the rudders , they last forever , costs nothing , no maintenance .... what else we need ?

I would like to keep my opinions and i respect everybody opinion .


Best Regards


***** **********

[raoul bianchett]

it seems now that i forgot to say that it would have been illogical to build the beam through as per JW design , when the whole boat has been built in an different technique .

Strong materials , as hardwood and plywood would have been difficult or impossible to connect to 'soft' material as glass fiber/core .

The logical choice was to build it keeping a continuity of the fiber , hull-deck-beam through , in order to spread the load .

Thanks


RB

[peterAustralia]

Hi

Nice of you to reply

So we now have gotten to the bottom of the story. As the hull of the boat was built of a different material, you decided to build the beam troughs out of a different material as well.

Now maybe the owner of the NZ tiki assumed that the hull would be built of different materials, but the beam troughs were to be built as per original plans. An assumption on my part is that if the owner of the NZ tiki really wanted the troughs to be built as per original plans, he should have had that in the contract. My guess if this was in the contract, it would have been done so (just my guess, not fact)

The NZ tiki owner heard about the Tiki in Thailand, became concerned, saw that the beam troughs were not built as he had assumed they would be, and started to get really worried. In retrospect maybe he was overly worried.

Now would the different beam trough method be strong enough? Well since the yard has made many boats, and there are no stories as yet of structural failure (to the best of my knowledge) in all probability they know how to build things strong enough.

So a big issue is communication. The owner assumed that the beam troughs were to be built as per plans. The owner seeing that the hull was to be built of a non standard material, assumed it was OK to build the troughs out of a non standard material as well

Now a little opinion from me
The tone of the emails got very nasty very quickly. I would put it to you that this was not too smart. When someone comes across as so aggressive (justified or not) it appears from the outside that they have something to hide. Reading some of the emails from ***** on 1 Aug, the tone was very aggressive. I am not saying that he did not have good reason to be upset, but rather that it was not smart or in anyone's interest to reply in that tone.

If the email correspondence was more of the polite tone of this thread, the entire episode could have been avoided. Perhaps the NZ tiki owner did not realise that the first Tiki failed only after being on a lee shore in the surf zone for a long time, and then only at the lashings. Perhaps in the email correspondence this could have been emphasizes more. Sometimes points need to be said over and over for it to sink in.

When I read the original thread that was written a while back, I came to poor impression of the builder. But when the facts are now out there in the open, all that he is done is build beam troughs out of different materials, based on the premise that the entire hull was to be built of a different material in the first place.

For the record, were the lashings built as per plans with the correct number of lashings and correct rope size. Or is this information something not easily found.

thats it
the end of the story
everything is clear
we can kill the thread now
just a nice polite, constructive thread..well worth it


peter

[warmat]

Hi Peter,

I normally don't join forums but I felt that I should in order to set the record straight about a couple of posts given that it concerns me directly.

I am the guy in New Zealand with the other Tiki 38. It has been suggested that I am perhaps overly concerned about the strength integity of my beam troughs.

***** the builder in Thailand has also claimed in a post that the beam troughs in my boat are actually stronger than that specified by Wharrams. Had that been the case I would have been delighted and I would certainly have no cause for concern.

However, that is not the case. The beam troughs were constructed of a single layer of 12mm nida-core which is a plastic honeycome and this core was simply butted together to form a trough. Then there was one layer of thin glass applied to it...and that is all. There was no foam cut out and replaced with solid fibre glass as ***** suggests and certainly no timber reinforcing of any description.

An important part of the trough is the way it is bonded to the hull. The stresses are concentrated at the corner where the troughs meet the hull. That is where strength and reinforcing is so critical so they can be distributed through the hulls. However there was no strengthening at all.

If the boat had been launched with the troughs the way they were they would have immediately been crushed with the movement caused by the first wave and the boat would have started to come apart.

I can assure you that if they were strong I would not be spending another $10,000+ to fix them.

Tomorrow the beam troughs will be cut out. I will have them photographed and also cut through one of them so that the cross section is clearly visible.
I will post the photos on my blog at http://www.naturalhigh-adventures.com

Cheers,

Warren Matthews

PS. Just for the record. I do know a little about composites in spite of what ***** says. I have built six high speed ocean going power catamarans in composite. epoxy, carbon fibre, kevlar and core materials. All in excess of 70feet.

[propshaft]

If the boat had been launched with the troughs the way they were they would have immediately been crushed with the movement caused by the first wave and the boat would have started to come apart.

This seems to be uneducated guess, not fact. Why didn't they crush on Creed's boat then??? As we know on Creed's boat lashing failed, not troughs.


Tomorrow the beam troughs will be cut out

Really bad solution, it will damage continuous laminate.

As I understand You got uncompleted boat, and start cutting the structure without making a survey. Since that, everything You say is just bla-bla-bla... :p

[peterAustralia]

ok Warren,

may i ask why you did not get the builder in Thailand to resolve your concerns regarding your beam troughs in his yard there. Could you have not negotiated something there and then, described your expertise and if still not satisfied, hired an independent expert to mediate.

Do you concur that the first Tiki that failed was due to the anchor failing and the boat being caught in a surf zone on a lee shroe and the massive forces the cat would have been subjected to. Probably more than a standard Tiki 38 could withstand?

[peterAustralia]

to propshat,

are you able to elaborate a little more on your identity? do you work in the yard or are involved in some way.

me
n peter evans
49 whitehall street, footscray
Melbourne Australia
0403 992106
just an amateur boat builder,
on the internet before going to work later today

Warren we know
Roaul we know
Yourself... if you could be so kind?

[propshaft]

to propshat,
are you able to elaborate a little more on your identity?

I am not involved and not working at that yard...
Just making observations based on what I see myself and know from local community.

[propshaft]

Hi
For the record, were the lashings built as per plans with the correct number of lashings and correct rope size.


Peter, problem could happen if ropes are not enough UV resistant.

Sun is really hard here and plastic skin fittings from BLA become garbage in one year.

[Laughingcruiser]

peterAustralia, there are some adults out there who still believe there is a tooth fairy; I feel you may be one of them.

Every time RB opens his mouth it has the same unsettling effect as an air raid siren, instead of people running to the air raid shelters they instinctively clutch their wallets with both hands, or reach for their back pockets to make sure their wallet is still there.

Trouble rains on those who are already wet and there is a lot out there on this guy, do your home work and for God’s sake don’t be so naïve, gullible dreamers are this shark’s bread and butter.

[warmat]

Hi Peter,

I am happy to answer you. Propshaft? well best left unsaid and unanswered.

It is a valid question about the beam troughs Peter. The short answer is that I did not know at the time. When I uplifted the boat it was faired, undercoated and ready for final painting in the yards opinion. As far as the yard was concerned the hulls were ready for fitting the beams. They were going ahead to paint it and fit the hulls when I stopped work on it, even though I had paid for the final painting. Glad I did stop it because big chunks of the fairing came off when it arrived back in NZ.

If I had been aware of this and other deficiencies which did not come to light until we started working on it in NZ I would have uplifted the hulls, left them in Thailand and advertised them outlining the deficiencies and sold them at a heavily discounted price to someone who had the patience to work on finishing the hulls themselves. It would have been cheaper for me to have started again from scratch.

But, I did not think for one moment that those components that were completed would not have been built with the appropriate stengthening. But, I take responsibility for overlooking this. At that time I still had a smidgen of trust in ***** and I made some assumptions that the parts of the hull that had been completed...faired and painted were at least usuable. I misjudged it unfortunately.

As to why Creed's boat came apart I can only speculate like everyone else. I asked ***** for a report on what failed so I may learn from it and ensure that I can take appropriate action to ensure that mine never suffers the same fate.

I don't believe it was the sea conditions that caused the break up. They don't get conditions like we get in NZ and Aust along that part of the coast where it came ashore. There was no storm on that particular day and certainly nothing what we would call surf. I was in Bangkok at the time. I also called a friend of mine who lives by the marina and he was unaware of any storm. No doubt the weather office has a record of the conditions that day.

***** said it rolled around on the beach for a couple of days. Mmmm...it is interesting that a boat chandler just 100 meters from that bit of beach was unaware of the event until I told him. By all accounts it was picked up and transported to *****'s yard very promptly...and very quietly.

I suspect that the mast did fall down when it beached (one of *****'s own staff said that) and I suspect that the beam lashings were loose and that this was also a contributing factor. But as I said I am only speculating. I had hoped that ***** would have been more forthright about what happened but the most he was say is that it got caught up in this mythical storm.

[peterAustralia]

Well that is as clear as mud.

When I get around to building my dream boat. And I do say when, not if. It will be in wood. That way things like stringers, beams, frames etc can all be seen easily and a nice easy assessment of their strength obtained.

Be that in strip planking in epoxy (I know build hours are higher, but if built overseas where labour cost is less per hour this is less of an issue) or whether that be of plywood.

thread seems to have degenerated into a he says this, he says that kind of thing....

solution,,, me I am off to work .. and will but out of this thread.. will leave it to the rest of you..
my naive, actually no. I was just trying to be objective. Going with the information on hand. I do not like generalisations.

peter

[propshaft]

Hi Peter,
There was no storm on that particular day

OK, but we have a weather chart showing area of low pressure causing strong winds and wave in the Gulf. Is this chart for day of accident (or day after)?

If there are any doubts one can send inquiry to Thai Meteorological Department. Did they announced strom warning those days?

So warmat would You please post TMD report saying that there was no storm? Or You prefer to keep posting unproven insinuations?

[sloopjb]

Propshaft, Thai law demands that a boat must take Thai regisration after 6 months in Thai waters and that a Thai national must be registered as owner.

***** tels us in Warrens blog that she lost her anchor or her anchor rope broke, and then rolled on the beach for two days. Quite plausible.
Peter also seems to believes
"the anchor failed first, and then the boat got washed ashore, and only then did the mast and lashings fail. The idea that both happened independently must be a massive coincidence, and I feel that coincidences do not happen much in the real world."

However another possiblity - simultaneously.
The anchor line may have produced sufficient force to compromise the central mast supporting beam, whereby the forward and central crossbeams would experience a rotational force. This may have popped the crossbeam lashings and pin fastenings, brought down the mast and split the boat in two all in one cataclysmic reaction... something like this....
34578

[propshaft]

Propshaft, Thai law demands that a boat must take Thai regisration after 6 months in Thai waters and that a Thai national must be registered as owner.

No, boat can be registered on Thai company name. So it can be easily registered on builder's company if it was required.


***** tels us in Warrens blog that she lost her anchor or her anchor rope broke, and then rolled on the beach for two days. Quite plausible.
Peter also seems to believes
"the anchor failed first, and then the boat got washed ashore, and only then did the mast and lashings fail. The idea that both happened independently must be a massive coincidence, and I feel that coincidences do not happen much in the real world."

However another possiblity - simultaneously.
The anchor line may have produced sufficient force to compromise the central mast supporting beam, whereby the forward and central crossbeams would experience a rotational force. This may have popped the crossbeam lashings and pin fastenings, brought down the mast and split the boat in two all in one cataclysmic reaction... something like this....
34578

1. It is anchor roller on the photo, not the crossbeam (just compare the photo of broken part with photo of assembled boat at yard).
2. If the hulls have been separated in the sea, why do they stay together on the beach on such close distance???
3. I agree that mast could fall down, but it is a consequence of lashings become loose in the surf. Stays and shrouds are never studied to resist such loads from hull.

So Your assumption does not seem realistic.

The fact is: boat was left unattended by owner and lost the anchor in storm. Leaving boat like this is 90% chance to loose it one day, whatever it is Tiki, Lagoon, Catana or any other brand. If You are trying to find builder's fault here... hm, it is a hard (or impossible) task.

P.S. Seems like warmat has 'gone with the wind'... nothing to say about weather chart :D

[warmat]

Propshaft,

Maybe I didn't make it clear in my earlier post. I don't debate with anonoymous posters. So, for the record I will not be baited by any comments that you make. If you have a point of view and wish to ask me a question then identify yourself and ask sensible questions. Don't ask me to go to the Thai weather office to check on something I already know. That was a silly. Anyone who knows anything about weather charts can see looking at the one you provided that there certainly was no storm that day.

[Laughingcruiser]

Propshaft, if the sister ship in New zealand is any indication of the boatbuilder's work ethic then clearly he IS at fault.

This boat appears to have been slapped together by poorly supervised Thai laborers not qualified boatbuilding tradesmen. How do you explain things being 20mm out of square, c'mon of course the boat builder is at fault.

To imply that a Catana or Lagoon would have been as vulerable in the same conditions as Creed's amateurish built mess is dillusional.

It is interesting to note that James Wharram has listed this boatyard on his website entitled " Dodgy professional builders - a WARNING "

"ya can hide the fire but what the hell are ya gonna do with the smoke"

[propshaft]

Propshaft,
Anyone who knows anything about weather charts can see looking at the one you provided that there certainly was no storm that day.
OK, now it is clear that You are new to weather charts :)

Look at low pressure area and look at gradient of isobars south from this area. This is clear indication of strong winds that will normally cause waves. Breaking waves of SS 4 are likely to happen that day and it is well enough to loose the boat once anchor failed.

Anyway good luck in building Your Tiki, hope to see it sailing in Thailand one day. Just pay more attention to the boat, not to entertaining 'builder's friends' in the blog.

[DaveJ]

Just so i have my weather chart reading skills up to scrath, only one feather from top of the wind indicator means 5knots, 2 means 10kts????

[propshaft]

Dave, short one is 5, long is 10, triangle is 50kts.

[warmat]

I thought that readers of this forum may be interested in a comment made on my blog http://www.naturalhigh-adventures.com by a very experienced Wharram Tiki owner in Thailand.

This person is the owner or five Wharram Tiki's including two T38's and two T30's on Phuket Island. I chartered one of the T30's a few years ago a week before the Tusnami. Just after arriving back in New Zealand I saw the T30 on the evening news as it was hit by the Tusnami wave and violently washed ashore.

Now what was interesting is that it not only hit the shore at high speed riding on the face of the wave but it hit a jumble of broken concrete and steel girders. Somewhat more traumatic that drifting ashore on a sandy beach in a bit of a breeze.

Interestingly unlike Creeds boat this Tiki boat did NOT break apart, and the beams stayed attached. It did suffer hull damage of course. If you would like to read about this go to my blog and have a look at the post. "Beam troughs...the unvarnished truth and evidence'" The comment is one of the last on that post.

Warren Matthews

[raoul bianchett]

i apologize for this post , that is slightly off topic .

I tried to answer to some accusations in the blog of Mr. Warren Mattheus , but unfortunately my posts get constantly eliminated ;

Recently Mr. Warren , "Warmat" , was afferming that all posts from Thailand , he researched , come from the same computer or from the fame factory ( mine , of course ) ;

The problem is that in Thailand we don't have a fix IP address for ADSL ( this service is for sale , and we never purchased it - now i can see a reason why it could be better to have it done -) .

So , everytime i connect , the router send another protocol and the IP varies everytime ;

Unfortunately there is no way to perform any research or track anything ; this is what i discovered when i have been subject to anonymous posts .

Just use google and search for FIX IP THAILAND ;

So , to finish , Mr. Warren , claiming that he perform the research of the IP ...

using his words " i will leave the reader the conclusions "

Regards

[warmat]

*****, I have not deleted any of your posts or comments from my blog. The only ones that I have ever deleted were those one made by other persons that you requested that I delete earlier this year and for which I kindly obliged you.

With regard to the IP addresses it is possible to pinpoint the location in Thailand (if you know how) and yours IP address has been constant.

The only post that you have made in the last day is on the blog.

Warren Matthews

[Nordic Cat]

The photographic evidence on the beam troughs is shocking!

This by a company that claims to be ISO 9000 certified to build boats (again falsely so).

How are you going to explain this Mr. RB? Either you are not managing your company for some reason, or else you are incompetent. Regardless of the reason, what we have now seen evidence of means that you are not beyond putting your customers lives at risk to make a quick buck.

SHAME ON YOU *****.

I am beginning to believe that even some of the more weird claims about you might actually be true.

Alan

[raoul bianchett]

[QUOTE=warmat;

This person is the owner or five Wharram Tiki's including two T38's and two T30's on Phuket Island. I chartered one of the T30's a few years ago a week before the Tusnami. Just after arriving back in New Zealand I saw the T30 on the evening news as it was hit by the Tusnami wave and violently washed ashore.

Now what was interesting is that it not only hit the shore at high speed riding on the face of the wave but it hit a jumble of broken concrete and steel girders.

Warren Matthews[/QUOTE]


Hi Warren ,

i would recommend to build your Tiki 38 in steel ; a bit heavy may be but you can handle a daily tsunami :-)


If they had sailed a Tiki 38 instead of the Titanic ...would have been the iceberg to sink !

==========================================================

Dear Warren ,

we have been requested to build a light boat ; the original Tiki design is extremely heavy and slow ;

Creed was close to buy a Pahi 52 here in Pattaya at that time ; built as from plans : cannot tack without start the motors , as many of these boats . ( and sailing fast as a rock )

We built a light boat , very fast and easy to tack ; pointing in the wind very well and can see how high is floating ; with 10 persons aboard is still floating high .

May be cannot hit the beach , but if you want do this , better buy a dune buggy !

[raoul bianchett]

This by a company that claims to be ISO 9000 certified to build boats (again falsely so).

Now we upgrated to ISO 9001-2001 :-)

I see that you still need to upgrade , instead .

I take the opportunity , to add a photo of yesterday launch of a new vessel

Envy can be dangerous , Nordic Donkey , be careful to the blood vessels :-)

[raoul bianchett]

http://multihull.com.au/site/Launchings.html

surprisingly, on this magazine , it is published the launching of an RB 38 but i could not find any Tiki 38 .

[Nordic Cat]

This by a company that claims to be ISO 9000 certified to build boats (again falsely so).

Now we upgrated to ISO 9001-2001 :-)

I see that you still need to upgrade , instead .

I take the opportunity , to add a photo of yesterday launch of a new vessel

Envy can be dangerous , Nordic Donkey , be careful to the blood vessels :-)

The current standard is ISO 9001-2008.

Can you show us an ISO 9001 certificate stating that RB Boats is certified to design and build sailing boats and power boats?

Calling people names really doesn't do much to enhance your image as a right minded and nice person to deal with *****.

Regarding the envy part, would it perhaps be because I don't have one of those boxy cats on the picture above? Seems like you can't look forward out of the saloon but for some small hatches? Not a boat for me, sorry.

Is the rig made of wood? Will it rot within a year as seen on one of the boats you delivered?

It seems that RB boats have carved out a special niche in the multihull market: poor quality workmanship, false claims and an obnoxious owner with an attitude problem.

Next step is that you will threaten me with your lawyers? Ask for the thread to be closed and deleted? Threaten the forum owner with a lawsuit?

Pretty repeatable behaviour, one just needs to push a button or 2, not even in any predefined firing order:p and "we have ignition!"

Alan

[rwatson]

Its easy to build a "pretty boat". After reading the relevant blog entries about the Tiki build, I am surprised that ***** has the "face" to fling insults around like that.

No way I would buy one of the supposed "boats" from this yard

[raoul bianchett]

Its easy to build a "pretty boat" !!!!!!

it is a post that comments itself ;

it takes 20 years to become a constructor ; years to learn about timber , resins ...years to learn how to properly weld stainless and aluminum .... years to learn about furniture building ....only learn about varnishing a boat it is time consuming .

Years to learn about the rigs ;


Years to learn about engine installation ;

It took to me 11 years and half to teach a thai crew how to build a proper boat ;

But we are now all amused by this comment :

'it is easy to build a pretty boat '

written by somebody that probably call the mechanic to change a flat tire .

You don't want to buy a boat ..... you are right , rwatson , start with a tricycle as we all did .

[raoul bianchett]

This boatyard’s specialty seems to be building “Gin Palaces” that are targeted towards a specific nouveaux riche who are not very boat savvy.

The structural integrity of these wallowing “Ice cream cakes” will rarely if ever be sea tested; they will probably never sail or travel anywhere.

In my opinion these tasteless “Gin Palaces” are destined to be marina fixtures, probably for a clientele that is not very boat savvy but has an overwhelming desire to make a statement rather than to sail.

If only they knew!

Just received an email from the lucky owner of our T 60 " The New Moon" ; they sailed during the whole summer from Turkey to Spain , via Greece , Italy and France . Enjoyed their boats , no inconveniences .

RB boats in this exact moments are sailing in many countries ;

When , you ,Laughingcruiser and other posters , sailed last time ? Or are you trying to dig a hole in your armchair , to leave a sign of your presence in the world ?

[Laughingcruiser]

*****, there are some boat builders who claim to have had 20 years experience, unfortunately many of them with 20 years experience have only had 12 months experience 20 times.

[raoul bianchett]

i recently heard that Alaska is looking to purchase some new ice breakers , to finally clear the north west passage ;

I took the freedom to recommend Mr. Warren ' s Tiki 38 ( built from the original plans ) as the obvious solution .

[Laughingcruiser]

Mr. **********, the problem you have is that one of your customers terminated their contract with you and then shipped the incomplete project to New Zealand.

Unfortunately for you your incomplete work was easily assessed by independent boat building professionals whose findings indicate that you are less than honest.

Unfortunately for you your worst night mare is unfolding, shoddy work practices compromising seaworthiness and safety have been exposed.

Luckily Warren Mathews had the good sense to follow his intuition and terminate your contract early into the build. If he had not had the good sense to do this then your poor workmanship, cost cuts and unauthorized departure from specifications would have been hidden beneath layers of glass and epoxy.

Mr. **********, you have been exposed, your position is clearly indefensible and no amount of arrogant denial posted on this thread will save you.

Clearly you are a person whose business ethics are questionable, a pathologically greedy individual whose greed knows no limits when in pursuit of an easy dollar.

In my opinion you belong in the boat builder’s hall of shame.

[rwatson]

i recently heard that Alaska is looking to purchase some new ice breakers , to finally clear the north west passage ;

I took the freedom to recommend Mr. Warren ' s Tiki 38 ( built from the original plans ) as the obvious solution .

The term "built" and the term "original plans" do not compute.

This is what you get when you do business with a country whose legal system depends on "who you know".

[raoul bianchett]

"Clearly you are a person whose business ethics are questionable, a pathologically greedy individual whose greed knows no limits when in pursuit of an easy dollar."


Dear Sir ,

***** ********** is only the Managing Director of RB Power & Sailing Co.;Ltd ;

we applied the Boatbuilding Agreements that Customers signed ; ( these agreements are available on request to be studied ; they are pretty standard and easy to understand ) ;

I am not particularly greedy , myself as person , but if you don't mind , with my personal salary , i will do whatever i like .

About the businness , RB Power & Sailing Co.;Ltd. and the other companies of the group , sometimes involved , ...how can a Company be defined .."greedy" ??

Our group just follow the Contracts , that have been read , studied , checked and signed by the Customers ;

If the customer breach his contract , for example refusing a payment that has been invoiced and it is technically due as foreseen by the contract .... the company will just apply the contract that foresees :

1. notification of the due payment

2. after 28 further days , charge of modest interests ( 4 % over the OD rate )
3. after 28 further days , and notifications , there is the Termination of the Contract

4. the Customer still got further 28 days to pay , or the boat get sold .

Is this a greedy behavior , or illegal , or ethically questionable ?

It seems to me , that we give plenty of opportunities to the customers , to pay , if they want .

All possibilities are foreseen in the Contract , and we usually send a copy to the customers to read , some days in advance ;

So why they are surprised about consecuencies ?

I am a simple man and i don't have the answer , so i will leave it to the public to answer .

[raoul bianchett]

[QUOTE=rwatson;

This is what you get when you do business with a country whose legal system depends on "who you know".[/QUOTE]



Dear Watson ,


do you live in a country whose legal system DON'T depend on 'who you knows' ?

Are you really so naive to believe that in US or Australia or anywhere in Europe ( i don't even mention my country , Italy ) relations are not important ?

Do you get a bank loan independently by who you are or who you know ?

If you uncle is a famous doctor , you get the same threatment in the hospital ?

My dear Watson ! unfortunately the world is not perfect and on december 24 th , don't waste your time on the terrace ( not a problem in Thailand but could be cold overthere ) as Santa will not come ;

Let me add that Thai Courts work properly and pretty efficient ; surely better then in Italy ;

[raoul bianchett]

[QUOTE=Laughingcruiser;298163]Mr. **********, the problem you have is that one of your customers terminated their contract with you and then shipped the incomplete project to New Zealand.

Mr. Laughingcruiser ,


Mr. Warren came to my office one day ; he said could have been easier for him to complete his project near his home town in NZ ;

I warned him that he would have removed a partially completed boat , in condition of
WHERE IS AS IT IS

without any warranty as another builder was going to complete the work ( in the meantime another builder will not guarantee the work as well ,as not all will been performed there)

As it is obvious and as i explained to Mr. Warren , a money loss was sure : a deposit and a stage payment had been paid at that time already . He accepted and he expected this . Good for him .

The Customer did not give us time , to complete anything , just sign and go ;

I was expecting problems from him - i learned to evaluate the persons , with this work - , this is why i asked him to sign the delivery document , as he did ;

Another option could have been :

Let RB complete the work ;

negotiate an extended guarantee and discuss with the yard the points that we were not willing to guarantee and understand why we did not want to guarantee the rudder lashings , for example .

Let us launch the vessel and in case of malfunctioning , just apply the Contract , that is there and has been signed for the reason to protect both Parties ;

But Mr. Warren proceeded in another way , suffered some damages , and ignored all the recommendations .

End of the serious answers

[rwatson]

Dear Watson ,

do you live in a country whose legal system DON'T depend on 'who you knows' ?


Yes - *I* do, and I have successfully had bad business practice compensated, and *not* threatened anyone with vengeance if they visited my country. Its just another indication of the mentaility at work here.

Just more "rubber logic"

Anyone who tries to pass off such blatently underengineered construction, and claims to have built it "according to plan" is not only incompetant but greedy not to immediately rectify the work.

I you were in a country where there was properly enforced consumer legislation, you would be made to fix it.

I cant believe the hide of this man. Its like arguing with PR rep from the Exxon Valdez!

[Herbalife]

Anyone who tries to pass off such blatently underengineered construction, and claims to have built it "according to plan" is not only incompetant but greedy not to immediately rectify the work.


So would Warren show the plans and survey report for his boat? If he has...

rtwatson: have You seen the boat yourself?

[rwatson]

So would Warren show the plans and survey report for his boat? If he has...

rtwatson: have You seen the boat yourself?

Yes - of course - it is posted on Mr Warrens Blog. There has been no contention that the illustrations are "faked" or are another boat by anyone.

What the boat builders have done is substitute some very marginal honeycomb material as substantial plywood framing, instead of building to "plan" - as the company keeps stating.

This is the crux of the matter.

Sure, ***** may not have built the boat, but he is obviously an official of the company, and if you take the trouble to read the reproduced responses to the customers complaint (which have not been refuted either) you see that he is not admitting the seriousness and potentially life threatening shortfalls in the build.

Its one thing to fix an error in a build, its another to have a system of boatbuilding that doesnt pick up such critical aspects through proper supervision and quality control.

An Australian boat building owner was jailed recently because shoddy work caused lost life.

[Herbalife]

Yes - of course - it is posted on Mr Warrens Blog. There has been no contention that the illustrations are "faked" or are another boat by anyone.
...
An Australian boat building owner was jailed recently because shoddy work caused lost life.

I asked about plans, not photos.

My understanding is that Tiki in question is not original Wharram's design, but composite boat? Did customer provide composite Tiki plans to the builder? If construction is not to plans, why doesn’t he arrange a survey?

So rwatson You haven't seen the boat?

[Laughingcruiser]

Albert, no need to be hyposensitive I am not criticizing you, I am certain you are more than capable of providing plans for an alternative hull construction to Wharram’s original specifications.

As I stated at the outset “according to what I have read” similar information was posted by Creed on his building blog during the construction of his Tiki 38.
Are you denying that you provided the plans for Creed’s hulls?

Flagging the moderator is a bit of an over reaction isn’t it?

[Laughingcruiser]

Albert, If what you are saying is in fact true then I accept your explanation.

Have a nice day!

[Laughingcruiser]

To the Moderator, The censorship of legitimate comment that does not contain defamatory remarks or breaches the rules of this Blog is farcical. What ever happened to free speech and you’re Fifth Amendment?

I think censoring my comments at the bequest of Alik is a joke, particularly when the comments were a legitimate opinion.

Since when did Alik take over the moderation of this forum? Poor, very poor!

No doubt this will be censored as well!

[Laughingcruiser]

Apex1, democracy may prevail and my comments may not be censored, however due to the content and profanities in your post your's will be.

Remember Apex1, this Blog is moderated by an American, and America is an ultra conservative society to say the very least.

However, I agree with your sentiments.

[_Tom_]

The 'Low price catamarans' thread which unfotunately degenerated into a farce was however an informative insight into the ramifications of building 'at a distance' . The experiences of the dissatisfied customers and the reaction to their complaints were astounding. It would seem that one customer was quite correct in doubting the seaworthyness of his newly completed Tiki 38.
I've seen the boat anchored near Ocean Marina, Pattaya the day before it washed ashore and afterwards on the shore (still more or less intact, masts upright).
Washed ashore you could see it had been on a small anchor, no chain, maximum 15m of rope. There was no storm during the night - only a little stronger wind, onshore, about force 4-5.
It made my heart bleed seeing this beautiful new boat ashore - don't know to which standards it was built but the finish looked exeptionally fine, work seemed to be well done.
The construction sure didn't cause it to break apart - it was the neglect afterwards.

[Jeff]

To the Moderator, The censorship of legitimate comment that does not contain defamatory remarks or breaches the rules of this Blog is farcical. What ever happened to free speech and you’re Fifth Amendment?

I think censoring my comments at the bequest of Alik is a joke, particularly when the comments were a legitimate opinion.

Since when did Alik take over the moderation of this forum? Poor, very poor!

No doubt this will be censored as well!

You posted that the designer in question worked on this.

The designer replied that, no, he had not, that "This statement is not true" and further that "We have never provided any drawings for modified Tiki."

The responsibility was then on you. You did not post any evidence to substantiate your claim, and no one else posted to back your assertion up. Then the way I read your followup, you accepted that your initial post which has now been removed was in fact incorrect (you said "If what you are saying is in fact true then I accept your explanation." Around here, a good man would be expected to either pony up the evidence at this point and stand behind his assertion, or else say "I'm sorry, I was wrong. I apologize.")

Thus when the designer requested his name be removed in your post, I saw no reason not to delete the post now acknowledged to be in error.

I will stand up for people posting legitimate questions with photos, drawings, documentation, evidence, corroboration -- facts. But I do not believe you flinging insults or implications at a designer who was not involved with the project at hand does anyone any good. I will not come to your home or office and stop you from saying whatever you wish, but at the same time I intend to keep our forum here as a friendly place for factual and substantive discussion. If you prefer a place where you can toss insults around freely, then perhaps you should find another.

[_Tom_]

Creed was close to buy a Pahi 52 here in Pattaya at that time ; built as from plans : cannot tack without start the motors , as many of these boats . ( and sailing fast as a rock )
Hmmm - you're talking about "White Seal", right? She tacks alright, if you know how to do it and we sailed 4-5 Knots in 7-8 Knots of wind, that's fine for me :)

[robert self]

You posted that the designer in question worked on this.

The designer replied that, no, he had not, that "This statement is not true" and further that "We have never provided any drawings for modified Tiki."

The responsibility was then on you. You did not post any evidence to substantiate your claim, and no one else posted to back your assertion up. Then the way I read your followup, you accepted that your initial post which has now been removed was in fact incorrect (you said "If what you are saying is in fact true then I accept your explanation." Around here, a good man would be expected to either pony up the evidence at this point and stand behind his assertion, or else say "I'm sorry, I was wrong. I apologize.")

Thus when the designer requested his name be removed in your post, I saw no reason not to delete the post now acknowledged to be in error.

I will stand up for people posting legitimate questions with photos, drawings, documentation, evidence, corroboration -- facts. But I do not believe you flinging insults or implications at a designer who was not involved with the project at hand does anyone any good. I will not come to your home or office and stop you from saying whatever you wish, but at the same time I intend to keep our forum here as a friendly place for factual and substantive discussion. If you prefer a place where you can toss insults around freely, then perhaps you should find another.

He is *****'s goto naval architect. Stated many times by RB himself. Circumstantial evidence suggest to me that these 3D renderings from the RB website came from him. I'm not saying he is responsible for *****s under-supervision resulting in shoddy workmanship. But he probably got some rubles for his time. If not from Creed than from *****. He don't work for free, that's for sure.

Furthur, if I could access an archive of Creed's old blog I bet I might be able to find his discussion of trading drawings, ideas, consultations with him. I might be wrong though.

See Alik post:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/low-price-catamarans-21614-13.html#post230339

He makes it abundantly clear he had nothing to do with the now infamous, but prescient, Ferguson's blackcat, Stone's "Island Breeeze" or Riven's catamarran taxi. But Creed's Tiki had yet to be launched.

What a difference another wrecked catamarran makes. He and ***** at ************ Boatyard were more than willing to turn the "Low Price Catamaran" thread into a farce with 10's if not 100's of armchair posts. Where were the moderators then??

On the plus side. It appears these two close business associates of ***** ********** in Pattaya would prefer to distance themselves from him on the World Wide Web and not be mentioned in the same thread. That's a good thing.

cheers
robert self

[Angélique]

N.... is R....'s goto naval architect. Stated many times by RB himself.
See RB's blog for RB's statement about the naval architect of the T38 mod's:

http://*****-**********.blogspot.com/2009/01/different-kind-of-catamaran.html

" At the beginning, he and I worked with A.... N.... to redraw the hull lines to better suit strip-planking. "

See also JWD's warning:

http://wharram.eu//live//article.php?story=20090828125835689

Regards, Angélique.

[RHP]

Guys, I'm not sure this thread is supposed to be a witch hunt is it?

[Alik]

Robert, there was some correspondence between me and Creed. He has sent me few inquires on 'ethnic catamarans' and 'Jester replica' we discussed some projects. I also have some sketches what I did during/after meetings with him (it is not modified Tiki but new designs of smaller boats). This is normal pre-contract work of designer. But DESIGN or DRAWINGS have never been paid, this correspondence and meetings never resulted any DESIGN. We have never issued any drawings to Creed, if You know what drawings are. Please take it clear and do not post Your insinuations anymore. If You have any drawings of modified Tiki with our company box - please post it here and now, otherwise I will require Your post to be removed.

After I realized/found that he is going to do the modification of Tiki, and presenting our work as modification of other's design, I stopped all work with Creed and asked him to remove any mention of me and our company from his blog.

So please do not reference Creed's blog here, what was used in the blog is not valid or authorised to present our work as designers. Our work is only presented on our company website (including boats designed and launched), not on private blogs of third parties.

[Laughingcruiser]

Jeff, I have indeed posted some cutting remarks but to accuse me of flinginging insults around is a bit much.

I have exchanged insults with RB and all my cutting comments have targeted him specifically and only him.

RB however has freely exchanged insults with many posters on this thread.

My post that you removed at the bequest of Alik accused no one of any thing, it was a statement that RB confirmed on his own Blog and Creed O'Hanlon had confirmed on his. If the participants in the building of this boat didn't know what was happening then who the hell does? Refer to Angilique's post if in doubt.

It is all well and good for some participants to now want to distance themselves from events, but not at the expense of free speech.

I realise that litigation in the US is a growth industry, for some even a job description so I can see why you may be gun shy when it comes to recieving threats of this nature.

Empty bluffs seem to pay dividends!

[Angélique]

So please do not reference Creed's blog here, what was used in the blog is not valid or authorised to present our work as designers.

See RB's blog for RB's statement about the naval architect of the T38 mod's:

http://*****-**********.blogspot.com/2009/01/different-kind-of-catamaran.html

" At the beginning, he and I worked with A.... N.... to redraw the hull lines to better suit strip-planking. "
This is not CCOH's blog but RB's. If it is not true* then you should talk to RB.

* "he (CCOH) and I (RB) worked with A... N... to redraw the hull lines to better suit strip-planking (http://*****-**********.blogspot.com/2009/01/different-kind-of-catamaran.html)"

RB's old blog (http://***************.blogspot.com/) was written by CCOH, commissioned by RB. That blog is removed and replaced by this blog (http://*****-**********.blogspot.com/). So talk to RB if it is not correct.

Regards, Angélique.

[Angélique]

Another not build as per plans Wharram was wrecked in January 2009.

Post #1: "the solid douglas fir beams 'snapped like toothpicks' in the swell"

The solid douglas fir beams of that boat should be: Post #2 "stacked laminations of timber"

Post #28: "The crossbeams failed down a line where they had been butt jointed rather than the laminates placed on top of each other and the overall width of the vessel was several feet wider then spec, the rig taller and there was no triangulation of the load under the mast."

Post #31: "Butt joined means the timber was laminated end on end ..... "

Well, see the thread for yourself....

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91114

So there was nothing wrong with the original design but the vessel broke down due to bad modifications that even further were badly built. Just like the heavily modified and badly built RB T38 that washed ashore.

Regards, Angélique.

[khunian]

I could not really be called a friend of Alik, although I have had some interactions with him.

He is a professional naval architect and has a good reputation in Thailand and other countries. There are a number of his designs that have been successfully built by a number of builders and have happy customers. One example would be the power catamaran dive boat that Alik designed and was built by AusThai. This is highly regarded in the area.

It seems that RB chose to use Alik's services after his own attempts at design were not successful - hence Alik's comments that he was not involved in the earlier boats. You cannot blame him wanting to protect his reputation.

Alik has no direct control over the builder, although I know that he does try and visit the yard during the build as a courtesy. RB appears to use Alik's reputation as a naval architect to support RBs business but the build is RB's responsibility not Alik's.

I cannot believe that Alik would ever design the beam troughs to be built as on Warren's Tiki 38 (the follow up to the wrecked boat) and he clearly states he was not involved. Irrespective of what ***** puts on his blog I would believe Alik. The trough build does not meet any known structural criteria and was purely cosmetic. This is the responsibility of the builder.

The worrying part is that no one would ever have known about the construction had Warren not decided to check. The boat would probably have been lost in the first big storm; along with Warren.

The warning to potential customers is clear.

[Laughingcruiser]

You posted that the designer in question worked on this.

The designer replied that, no, he had not, that "This statement is not true" and further that "We have never provided any drawings for modified Tiki."

The responsibility was then on you. You did not post any evidence to substantiate your claim, and no one else posted to back your assertion up. Then the way I read your followup, you accepted that your initial post which has now been removed was in fact incorrect (you said "If what you are saying is in fact true then I accept your explanation." Around here, a good man would be expected to either pony up the evidence at this point and stand behind his assertion, or else say "I'm sorry, I was wrong. I apologize.")

I do not accept that my original post was incorrect. May I suggest that you take a refresher course in English comprehension; I stated that; "If what you are saying is in fact true then I accept your explanation" The emphasis here is on the word "IF" and a very big "IF" at that, this is not an admission that I was wrong, are you serious?

Also I did not make or refer to any defamatory remarks. I clearly prefaced my comments by stating that I was referring to material I had read, this material is freely available in the public domain, extracts of which have since been posted by other contributors to this thread.

Perhaps you should practice what you preach and “pony up” yourself instead of defending someone who is trying to distance themselves from a project that went sour.

[Alik]

I clearly prefaced my comments by stating that I was referring to material I had read, this material is freely available in the public domain, extracts of which have since been posted by other contributors to this thread.

Tomorrow I will write in my 'freely available' blog that Tiki was designed by Bruce Farr - would You quote it as well?

If You have any proofs (drawings, design agreements, invoices) post it here. If You want to discuss something - welcome to my office, I will show how design contract and design set from AMD looks. Otherwise it is not free speech but gossips of anonimous Internet-bubblers. These insinuations should be removed as they present no sence or facts. I really appreciate moderators' help on this, for sure moderators also care about reputation of this valuable resource.

Again: third party blogs and websites do not represent my job or our company job. We can not control the webspace or monitor private blogs. At any doubt please send inquiry, we will provide information on request.

Again: I clearly wrote to Creed in 2007(!) that he is not authorized to reference us and our projects in his blog. He is not even our customer! See my email posted before. We will require corrections from RB (I didn't know they have new blog).

Finally, I wish all participants to stop this useless guesswork, abandon the computers and go do some boating. So did I today, high tide, good time for fishing.

[Laughingcruiser]

So what you are saying is that ***** **********'s Blog is the gossip of an internet bubbler?

[warmat]

I asked about plans, not photos.

My understanding is that Tiki in question is not original Wharram's design, but composite boat? Did customer provide composite Tiki plans to the builder? If construction is not to plans, why doesn’t he arrange a survey?

So rwatson You haven't seen the boat?

Herbalife. No need to supply plans. Neither my boat or Creeds was any more a composite boat than a standard Wharram.

The only deviation from the original Wharram plans in the case of my boat was to be limited to the hulls which were to be built of strip planking instead of plywood.

The Nida-core was approved to be used in non structural areas and in places where Wharrams use a sandwich construction.

I did request that the decks had an increased camber like Creeds decks as I thought that they looked better than the Wharram design which was a bit flatter. Unfortunately even though this was part of the initial understanding either ***** or his workers misunderstood and they built the decks and cabin tops off the Wharram plans...except that they forgot to put the same degree of camber in the cabin tops as provided for in the plans so the net result is that they are almost flat and the headroom is reduced by 40mm as a result.

I was not happy about that because not only did I not get the increased camber as Creed did but I didn't even get the same amount as the Wharram plans call for.

So, with regard to plans there are none other than the Wharram plans themselves. ***** told me before I signed the contract that the hulls had been designed professionally by Albert and that is what gave me confidence to go ahead...he showed me the 3D renderings by Albert. But, beyond the hull modification everything else was to be as per the Wharram plans.

All other changes I my boat have been thought up by ***** with no consultation with me...and as far as I understand no further consultation with Albert.

One of the glaring examples of one of *****s unapproved modifications (other than my beam troughs) are the beams themselves which are 100mm less in depth than the plans call for. ***** claims that they are lighter and stronger but is unable to provide any calculations so I am not taking any chances...I am laminating an extra 2 x 25mm lengths of timber to the beams top and bottom and reglassing.

Warren Matthews

[Alik]

So what you are saying is that ***** **********'s Blog is the gossip of an internet bubbler?

Sorry, but seems it is You :p
In blog and web RB states that Tiki38 is Wharram Design. Maybe I missed something?

[Alik]

Warren, please don't take it personal, but have You ever been to our office, have You ever seen any plans of this boat developed by us? Have I ever met You? I also have bunch of handsketches made for potential customers (yes, and for Creed also) - why don't You build boats from them?

That's amazing - nobody have ever seen the drawings, but everyone sure we designed it!

[warmat]

Alik. I stated what was presented to me and I accepted it in good faith as I had no cause to think otherwise at the time.

I repeat. Before I went to contract ***** showed me the 3D renderings of the hulls only and told me they were done by you. He went to great lengths to point out some of the deficiences in the Wharram hull drawings.

I did not deem it necessary to go to visit your office to ask you directly to verify what I had been told by ***** particuarly as it was common knowledge that ***** was a major customer of yours. I operate in a business world in which I expect a degree of ethics and trust and as such I do not cross reference everything I am told. I trust someone until I have cause not to, and in this case and at that time I could not see what upside there was for ***** lying to me.

If those 3D renderings were not done by you then and you should take that issue up with *****...and thus prove you did not do them. Don't waste you time trying to take a cheap shot at me by suggesting that I build a boat from a bunch of sketches.

Quite frankly I don't give a damn who did the hull drawings. The hulls on my boat are fine and if you look at my blog at www.naturalhigh-adventures.com I have never said anything to the contrary. It is the other parts of the boat that are problematic.

[Alik]

was common knowledge that ***** was a major customer of yours.

At present, we deal with about 20 builders worldwide.

Don't waste you time trying to take a cheap shot at me by suggesting that I build a boat from a bunch of sketches.
But actually You are, Warren! Nothing personal, but just look at reality. You can not just change hull shape and material, but leave all design as it was. Sometimes we change hull length by 100mm, displacement by 100kg or deadrise by 5 degree - and we already have to re-work all scantlings!

Ask any expert in this forum - they will confirm.

[Laughingcruiser]

Alik, the only comment that I have posted regarding you, is to say that according to an article I read there appears to be collaboration between Creed O’Hanlon the client, RB Power & Sailing the builder and naval architect.

I have not posted extracts from the article I read; therefore you do not know what I read. You may make assumptions about what I read but that is not sufficient reason to go squealing to the moderator.

You are free to interpret the word collaboration anyway you like; you do not know what I read unless you are claiming to be a clairvoyant.

Subsequent postings by other reader’s of this thread quote extracts from the builder ***** **********’s Blog “ From the Jungle to the Gulf” where he clearly states that he was involved with the project.

http://*****-**********.blogspot.com...catamaran.html

He disputes this; if he feels comfortable with that, then that is clearly a matter for him!

[Alik]

Subsequent postings by other reader’s of this thread quote extracts from the builder ***** **********’s Blog “ From the Jungle to the Gulf” where he clearly states that he was involved with the project.

http://*****-**********.blogspot.com...catamaran.html

What You have read? Where? Who said that? If You are talking about private blogs of Creed and *****, then a) both of them were managed by Creed b) it was removed on our request long time ago as it was not true.


Nazarov disputes this; if he feels comfortable with that, then that is clearly a matter for him!
Yes, it is a matter for me as we never designed the boat in question.

Are You trying to convince me that I have designed that boat? :D Then go to the first page of this thread and re-read the title - Wharram Tiki wrecked in Thailand...
I am not going to discuss it with You or Robert anymore, sorry.

[Laughingcruiser]

"both of them were managed by Creed"

Sorry that is " hear say" what evidence do you have?

No! I am not saying you designed this boat or trying to convince you you did. As I said before I don't have a personal opinion, others who were involved with you do.

[Angélique]

What You have read? Where? Who said that? If You are talking about private blogs of Creed and *****, then a) both of them were managed by Creed b) it was removed on our request long time ago as it was not true.RB's new blog started in January 2009. First post: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 4:51 PM (http://*****-**********.blogspot.com/2009/01/from-beginning.html). That's long after CCOH and RB break up. So a) that blog is not managed by CCOH. And b) it is not removed (http://*****-**********.blogspot.com/2009/01/different-kind-of-catamaran.html). See post #92 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/wharram-tiki-wrecked-thailand-29022-7.html#post298925) about RB's old and new blog.

Regards, Angélique.

[warmat]

At present, we deal with about 20 builders worldwide.


But actually You are, Warren! Nothing personal, but just look at reality. You can not just change hull shape and material, but leave all design as it was. Sometimes we change hull length by 100mm, displacement by 100kg or deadrise by 5 degree - and we already have to re-work all scantlings!

Ask any expert in this forum - they will confirm.

Alik,

The reality is that one of the reasons that I was sold my boat by ***** was on the basis that the hull designs were professionally reworked by you and that the only change to the Wharram plans that was that it was in strip planking and that the displacement was slightly greater due to the extra 'chine' being being eliminated. This was a simple modification and one that appealed to me.

This is why I agreed to proceed. Those change did not, or least should not have led on to major flow on effects...if constructed as represented. I don't have to ask any expert about this. In my 40 years of playing around in boats I have built several dozen power catamarans, 6 of which were in excess of 70feet. I have been intimately involved in the design and construction of all of them so I do know a little bit about what works and what doesn't...at least when is comes to hulls and superstructure construction.

You are a naval architect so you know what I am saying about the changes is true. Maybe what I was told by ***** did not happen! Clearly I don't know as much as you do about who actually did those 3D drawings or exactly what changes were done. You do seem to know a lot about it for someone who claims they did not do the 3D rendering.

Does ***** have the expertise to do a 3D drawing like he produced? Maybe someone in your office did a 'moonlighter'?

In any case, as I said I don't care. I am quite happy with my hulls even though I paid a 300% premium for them. I am not going to waste my time responding to anything further on this subject. I only posted what I did to try to help provide some clarity on the issue of the Tiki 38 3D renderings based on first hand knowledge.

[Alik]

Alik,
The reality is that one of the reasons that I was sold my boat...


Warren, I always mind if someone is not willing to order complete design set, or even a concept design (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/design-spiral-where-start-building-boat-28580.html#post289502) set, but using our name as designer of his boat. I am sure that Mr.Wharram does not accept use of his name for Your and Creed's boats either, whatever third parties say in their blogs!

For the renderings - You can look at my gallery on this site to see how our renderings look.

[warmat]

Alik,

I really don't understand why you are even discussing this with me. ***** showed me the 3D renderings, said they were done by you. He had already built Creeds hulls at that stage and he said the hydrostatics had been done so I had no cause to suspect the hull drawings were incomplete.

End of story...and end of my comments on this matter. If others in this forum what to establish who is telling the truth...you, or *****...that is their call...I personally don't care.

[Angélique]

.... beyond the hull modification everything else was to be as per the Wharram plans.Warren,

You changed hull shape, hull material, and build method. After that nothing can be as per the Wharram plans because everything else in the build has to be adjusted to match with the previous adjustments. Alik is right about that! For example, how are the keels and the skegs fitted into your heavily modified hulls? I would not be suprised if RB messed up there too.

See also my edit of post #93 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/wharram-tiki-wrecked-thailand-29022-7.html#post298934).

Regards, Angélique.

[warmat]

Angelique,

Fair comment...but, what I was trying to refer too was the rest of the vessel. Strip planking is quite commonly used on Wharram hulls and is not a major modification. I am still checking out the method used for fixing the skeg. I suspect it is OK as I saw them soon after they were done and they had much heavier laminates securing them to the hulls than Creeds boat. However, we will be doing some core samples.

The rest of the boat...beams, rig etc will be as per plan with minor modification. As matter of fact I have been having discussion with Gunther Nutt of Seascape Marine in Phuket who is a licenced Wharram builder and has built 26 Wharrams. I am considering having him build my masts and supplying the rigging and shipping it all to NZ and then flying him there to set it up and 'tune it'. Although my NZ builder is capable of doing this their specialty is high tech offshore racing yachts. Gunther has considerable experience with the Wharram rigs and has been successful with them so it makes sense to take advantage of his knowledge.

I will make a decision within the next couple of days and post the details on the blog.

I am however modifiying the cockpit area as the standard design doesn't suit my needs. I will shortly post on my blog the deck layout.

Warren

[Angélique]

Warren,

First of all, I feel verry sorry about what happend to you and Creed. I wish you both the best.



.... I am considering having him build my masts and supplying the rigging and shipping it all to NZ and then flying him there to set it up
and 'tune it'.

Wharram is very enthusiastic about Günther.

http://www.wharram.com/letterapril003.htm

http://wharram.eu//live//article.php?story=20080515162825578

Perhaps you can entice Günther to do a speed sea trial in a 8 around the NZ North and South Island :)

Good luck! Angélique.

[Angélique]

Strip planking is quite commonly used on Wharram hulls and is not a major modification.That's right: "Can I build the Tiki 38 in strip plank? (http://wharram.com/faq.htm#qT38-2)"

Regards, Angélique.

[Angélique]

Humm... a post of mine is missing. http://cache.hyvz.com/images/smilies/default/smiley_eatcrocodile.gif I wonder who has eaten it and why?

:confused: Angélique :confused:

[Jeff]

Humm... a post of mine is missing. http://cache.hyvz.com/images/smilies/default/smiley_eatcrocodile.gif I wonder who has eaten it and why?

:confused: Angélique :confused:
Please check your private messages - I have just sent you a message explaining why the one post of yours was deleted.

[Angélique]

Please check your private messages - I have just sent you a message explaining why the one post of yours was deleted.Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your reply. I now can understand the reason for the removal of that item. I can live with that.

Regards, Angélique ;)

[raoul bianchett]

In my 40 years of playing around in boats I have built several dozen power catamarans, 6 of which were in excess of 70feet. I have been intimately involved in the design and construction of all of them so I do know a little bit about what works and what doesn't...at least when is comes to hulls and superstructure construction.

This is fantastic !!!! several dozens !!!!!!!

hahahahahahahahaha !!!!

I will keep this one together with the other one , when Warren was sailing in 10 meters waves , in the middle of the icebergs on a canoe ....

what a clown..

[warmat]

Hello *****,

With remarks like this I think that it is about time that I revealed some other info about my experience with building a boat with you and give the truth about what you did to Creed.

For the record *****, over the last 40 years I have built over 90 power catamarans from 18 - 28 feet, and 7 power cats in excess of 70 feet.

And yes, it is on record that I have worked ocean bars in New Zealand and Australia with surf in excess of 10 meters, and yes it is on record that I have operated in storm conditions off the coast of NZ in sea conditions in excess of 10 meters in Cook Strait when conditions were so bad that shipping in the area ceased for a day. And yes it is on record that I have operated my 23' Shark Cat in 90 knot winds (not 90 km) in a rescue operation.

So, don't call me a clown *****. I have been civil to you in both my blog and in this forum. Do you want to apologise ***** or, do you want the gloves to come off?? Your call.

Warren

[warmat]

To all those who may be wondering about the number of power cats that I have built. For a number of years I operated a commerical shark fishing operation from a Shark Cat which I built in New Zealand. The length of these boats varied from 18 - 28' with the most popular size being 23'. The Shark Cats were designed in Australia for working the Shark nets off the Gold Coast, Queensland.

This necessited negotiating the Southport bar which can be exceptionally dangerous at times. The Shark Cat was one of the few vessels that could negotiate it safely in all conditions subject to the skill of the operator.

As a hobby whilst I was fishing I set up a factory to manufacture the Shark Cats in New Zealand, and I sold more than 90 of them. Many of them I owned and operated first and then sold them which is why I had so many.

Warren

[rwatson]

So you got your dodgy Wharram Cats built in Thailand why ?

Was that 300% premium you quoted (3 times the expected cost ) still cheaper than New Zealand Labour ?

[warmat]

Hi RWatson,

I had it built in Thailand primarily because of Creed who built the first Tiki 38. I thought that following behind him I could learn from his mistakes...and besides my background is power catamarans not sail so I am a novice in that department whereas Creed is a highly experienced sailor.

Anyway, I did learn from Creeds mistakes and I added to that by learning from some of my own...primarily due to misplaced trust.

Interestingly as it turned out I could have contracted for the same deal in New Zealand for less money, but I didn't bother checking at the time as I thought it would be fun to build at the same time as Creed and we could do a bit of crusing around South East Asia together. It was quite convenient as I have a subsidiary in Thailand so I commute back and forth quite reguarly.

The 300% premium came about as follows: I was told by the builder that a progress payment was due when I was in NZ and beleiving that to be true I wired him the money. When I arrived to check out the boat it was miles away from being at the point where the progress payment was due. I had at that time sent him US$75,000 but there was less than US$25,000 worth of work completed...thus the 300% calculation.

On hind sight I would have been best to have removed it from the yard and put it up for auction as is and started again in NZ or with Gunther Nutt in Phuket and not incurred the expense of shipping the hulls back to NZ and the additional expense of fixing the structural deficiencies. But...I didn't, so I only have myself to blame.

I don't hold any illwill to ***** as it was my own fault for not being diligent enough at the time... But...he is beginning to annoy me with his childish name calling...

We will see what evolves from this point on. Maybe quite interesting.

Cheers,

Warren

[Angélique]

See RB's new blog for RB's statement about the naval architect of the RB T38 mod's:

"At the beginning, he and I worked with A... N... to redraw the hull lines to better suit strip-planking."
Alik responded "this is not true" and, see quote:



Third party blogs and websites do not represent my job or our company job.

We will require corrections from RB (I didn't know they have new blog).
RB changed info:

"At the beginning, he and I worked to redraw the hull lines to better suit strip-planking. (http://*****-**********.blogspot.com/2009/01/different-kind-of-catamaran.html)"

Well that's clear, no involvement of any naval architect mentioned anymore :!:

@ Alik, I apologize for the "one of you is ......" statement I made about this. That was also harmful to the one who was telling the truth, so I should not have said that.

@ Jeff, thanks for the deleting of that inappropriate post.

Regards, Angélique :cool:

[robert self]

The 300% premium came about as follows: I was told by the builder that a progress payment was due when I was in NZ and beleiving that to be true I wired him the money. When I arrived to check out the boat it was miles away from being at the point where the progress payment was due. I had at that time sent him US$75,000 but there was less than US$25,000 worth of work completed...thus the 300% calculation.
Warren

This also happened to me with the Penny 26. Except I was not conned into paying after Chris Harrell was fired, so save myself thousands of dollars. In my case Chris was very good about keeping me up to date with pics on a weekly basis. Good thing too because plywood bulkhead cutouts were in the wrong place. transom knees too small. Transom knees bolted up incorrectly. Ballast not installed, on, and on...

On the bright side, I probably would have paid for, and sailed off in, a death trap if I had not been diligent about progress pics. Trusting RB went out the window when Chris' replacement, one Allan Ganz, did not reply to my emails for 3 months prior to RB's progress payment invoice.

cheers
robert self

[rwatson]

Its easy to build a "pretty boat" !!!!!!
It took to me 11 years and half to teach a thai crew how to build a proper boat ;

He probably treats those poor Thais with the same attitude we have seen in his posts.

"Trusting RB went out the window when Chris' replacement, one Allan Ganz, did not reply to my emails for 3 months prior to RB's progress payment invoice."

Sounds like he is still in Management Systems 101 after all the hard work training staff, and has yet to enroll in ethical business conduct course.

"Its the age of Enron, baby"

[Angélique]

It took to me 11 years and half to teach a thai crew how to build a proper boat ;
"R... B... founded his boat-building company, RB P... & S..., in T... in 1998. (http://www.blogger.com/profile/07879419624752546560)"

Hi *****,

11½ years to teach your crew how to build a proper boat is from the start off your company until now. Does that mean that your yard has not delivered a proper boat till to date?

Just curious :D

Regards, Angélique :cool:

[BigCat]

sloopjp, seems like you are next flusher here. Your posts are biased gossips, no facts.

Was the boat on water for 7-8 months? Did the owner provide any maintenance of lashings? If the boat is anchored unattended next to fishing village, could fishermen cut the ropes?

This accident proves only one thing: Tiki idea with ropes does not work today.

I'm not sure Wharram's methods of holding beams onto the hulls worked well at any time. In a six month time frame in the S. Pacific in 1977-78, two Wharrams known to me personally disappeared on passages. I always suspected that they came apart where the beams joined the hulls - they were held by thin steel straps that had layers of cut tire pieces under them. The attachments seemed too flexible and flimsy for big, steep waves to me, and I had spent plenty of time sailing in big waves.

[sabahcat]

I always suspected that they came apart where the beams joined the hulls - they were held by thin steel straps that had layers of cut tire pieces under them.
That sounds like someone went against the designers instructions.

[Angélique]

I always suspected that they came apart where the beams joined the hulls - they were held by thin steel straps that had layers of cut tire pieces under them.



That sounds like someone went against the designers instructions.

Right !

Wharram classic design hull beam connection from below to above:

- The connection bolts fixed through strengthened gunwhales.
- Steel brackets fixed to the beams.
- The connection bolts through the beam brackets.
- The connection bolts through high compression rubbers.
- Nuts on the connection bolts to press down the high compression rubbers to the brackets with's press down the beams to the hulls.
- Flexibility is adjustable by the nuts on top of the connection bolts.

See also: "Modifications to the standard plans can be dangerous. (http://wharram.com/wharramsailors-donbrazier.htm)"

Regards, Angélique

[RHP]

This is an interesting read: http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/Docs/But%20Its%20Only%20A%20Little%20Change.pdf

[sabahcat]

Right !

Wharram classic design hull beam connection from below to above:

- The connection bolts fixed through strengthened gunwhales.
- Steel brackets fixed to the beams.
- The connection bolts through the beam brackets.
- The connection bolts through high compression rubbers.
- Nuts on the connection bolts to press down the high compression rubbers to the brackets with's press down the beams to the hulls.
- Flexibility is adjustable by the nuts on top of the connection bolts.


Regards, Angélique

And here was me thinking they still used ropes, and the ropes now being so much stronger than before adding to their safety, but it seems not


9. Design Specific Questions
CLASSIC DESIGNS
Can I lash the beams on my Classic design, rather than using fixed fastenings?

What you need is Plan Sheet O7, 'Beamlashings for Classic Designs'. This is an optional drawing, not part of the plans, intended for builders who wish to go for lashed beams rather than the standard attachment method. These plans are available from our Online Shop in the Building Plans/Classic Designs Section.
http://www.wharram.com/faq.htm#qC-1

[Angélique]

And here was me thinking they still used ropes, and the ropes now being so much stronger than before adding to their safety, but it seems not

Wharram rope beam lashings were developed after modern high-tech synthetic ropes became available and are only safe with the use of modern high-tech synthetic ropes. Rope beam lashings are standard on the newer Wharram Designs.

The 'felxibel fixed fastenings (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/wharram-tiki-wrecked-thailand-29022-9.html#post299959)' I described is the old fastening system for Wharram Classic Designs and it was developed before modern high-tech synthetic ropes became available. Plan Sheet O7, 'Beamlashings for Classic Designs (http://wharram.com/faq.htm#qC-1)', is ment to use rope beam lashings on Wharram Classic Designs instead of the old attachment method that is standard on the Classic Designs.

Regards, Angélique

[Angélique]

This is an interesting read: http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/Docs/But%20Its%20Only%20A%20Little%20Change.pdf

Thanks, I will read it tomorrow. It's now night in europe!

Regards, http://messenger.msn.com/MMM2006-04-19_17.00/Resource/emoticons/moon.gif Angélique http://messenger.msn.com/MMM2006-04-19_17.00/Resource/emoticons/moon.gif

[Red Tide]

See also JWD's warning:

http://wharram.eu//live//article.php?story=20090828125835689

Regards, Angélique.
It will be interesting to see if the mentioned builder who seems to threaten to sue everyone will try and sue James Wharram for being called out in his warning. That could be a revealing court case :eek: :cool:

[Angélique]

That could be a revealing court case

That would be fun :D

Regards, Angélique :cool:

[RWJ]

What You have read? Where? Who said that? If You are talking about private blogs of Creed and *****, then a) both of them were managed by Creed b) it was removed on our request long time ago as it was not true.


Yes, it is a matter for me as we never designed the boat in question.

Are You trying to convince me that I have designed that boat? :D Then go to the first page of this thread and re-read the title - Wharram Tiki wrecked in Thailand...
I am not going to discuss it with You or Robert anymore, sorry.


******,

You sent me this e-mail telling me that you re-drew the hulls and changed the design of the hull shape.


Dear Rod,
Saturday, February 7, 2009, 12:08:16 AM, you wrote:

Dear Mr. *******,

I am interested in buying a New Tiki 38 in Thailand that I understand you made significant changes to Wharram's design.
Can you tell me anymore about the changes you made to this design?
I notice the deck shear line is different, no chines, and I heard that the boat's keels are now sacrificial. Did you change the freeboard, bow angle, and hull shape?
How did these changes change the overall structure of the boat?
Thank you very much.

Rod Jones

******'s reply:


We have done modifications of hull shape only, on customer's request. The hull is re-drawn for round bilge shape and slightly increased displacment, but profile (and also sheerline) is same with the original boat. We've got sections of orignal Tiki and just rounded them to get new shape.
We did not involve in structural design of this boat, this was done by customer and builder.

Best regards,
****** *******

[Jeff]

Moderator Note: I have changed the subtitle of the above message to make it less adversarial (I believe) and I have also removed the name of the designer in question; it is possible I am over-moderating this thread, but my intent is to protect a designer whose work I do respect (other work I should say as I have not seen any drawings they did in regards to any boats discussed in this thread).

On a personal note, I am alarmed by the whole situation and troubled by the problems reported between builder and customer; the warning at http://wharram.eu//live//article.php?story=20090828125835689 from Wharram speaks for itself.

[warmat]

Hi Jeff,

The situation is much worse than what has been indicated on this thread and on others.

I was in Thailand when things 'blew up' with Creed. I saw the invoice for the final amount which was demanded prior to launch even though it was not due until after sea trials. Not only that, there were many other unjustified charges and no adjustments for the items which were part of the contract and were paid for but never supplied. Just one of those items was 24 Lewmar portlights, most of them opening with insect screens. Instead a hole was cut and perspex was put in with Sikaflex with only a 3 - 4mm overlap and no mechanical fastening. Any twisting or a good wave impact could potentially push them in and flood the interior.

That was just one of many items that was included in the contract and which was not supplied and for which there was no offset.

But, even more serious than that was a number of structural deficiencies that Creed became aware of and pointed out to *****. ***** responded by preparing a disclaimer and insisted Creed sign it which would essentially negate the warranty. When he refused to sign it then that was things came apart in their relationship.

So Creed never got to test the boat, was not notified of the launch and he never accepted delivery as it was not completed as per the terms of the contract.

Creed had only been back in Thailand for a shortwhile as he had been seriously ill. He had been relying on photos and to assess the quality of the work. I had already told him that the finishing was very substandard but the photos were taken in such a way that the finish looked good. All the mitre joints were at odd angles with gaps, much of the work was out of square, jobs were done in the wrong sequence and had to be redone and what had been done was messed up. At the time of launching the interior was like a poorly put together second hand boat. Looked OK from a distance.

I had a look at it on the marina a few days after it was launched and noticed the synthetic ropes linking the wire ropes to the mast (sorry about not knowing the correct yachting term) were already starting to unravel. I wondered at that time how long it would be before they totally came undone and the mast fell over.

Anyway, as I said I was there at the time and was able to observe all this first hand. My boat was still under construction. As I have mentioned in earlier posts I had already paid ***** US$75,000 for about $25,000 worth of work.

Creed is a pretty easy going guy, but I am not so easy going when I am crossed so I thought that if Creed is having a problem now, I will have a bigger one when it comes time to launch my boat...so I told ***** I was going to pull my hulls out and ship back to NZ for completion.

I explained to him that I was expecting quality workmanship...ie Italian quality as was showed to me in photos when I first went to contract. The price was not a bargain and no cheaper than NZ or Australian prices. He agreed that they didn't have the skills to acheive that level of finish and after all it is only a Wharram. Although that was his opinion it was not mine.

Anyway, I told him that I was prepared to write of the extra US$50K that I had paid him in order to have a smooth transition and removal of the hulls.

At that stage I was willing to let the matter be left at that. But, over the following months when I saw how ***** treated Creed I was absolutely disgusted. Not only did he say some very bad things about Creed which were untrue but he threatened me and other with criminal defamation proceedings.

He apparently 'confiscated' Creeds boat with no notice to him and 'sold' it, even though he never completed the contract and has never provided an accounting to Creed or his lawyers. There was no offer to return the equipment that Creed had put on the boat himself such as the wind vane. That was 'confiscated' as well.

For readers in Western countries this seems unbelievable that someone can do this...as normally one can get recourse through the courts. But, unfortunately that is not so simple for a foreigner in Thailand. Creed lost directly US$135,000 plus the stuff he put on the boat plus travel costs and time. He could easily spend another $100K in pursuing this through the courts with competent international lawyers. Then at the end of the day...it is faily meaningless because with a judgment the defendant can file an appeal (with minimal cost) and drag it out for years...and who knows where anyone may be in 5 years from now?

I hope that this clears up a few things and better explains the delimma faced by Creed and others.

Because this situation has tended to reflect badly and unfairly on other Thai boat builders I should say that there are some good boat builders in Thailand. As a matter of fact I will be making a post in my blog shortly about the rigging and masts which I am going to have built in Phuket by Gunther Nutt of Seascape. www.naturalhigh-adventures.com

I should also say that ***** is a likeable guy. He still has a chance to redeem himself by showing some respect to his customers, being honest and making an effort to make amends to those people he has wronged. For my part I bear in no malice in the writing off of my US$50,000 but I am annoyed that I have had to spend about an extra $15,000 in fixing the beam troughs and he was not even prepared to say he was sorry...instead calls me a clown.

Maybe he will see the light some day, I hope for his sake and the sake of his customers that he does...and soon.

Warren Matthews

[Frosty]

This is making Thailand look like a lawless place which of course it is not.

If these agreements (what ever they are) have not been put in writing then one can be taken to the cleaners here as you could in any country by doing business word of mouth.

If however there is written evidence then it can be taken up by one of many local lawers.

[warmat]

Frosty...I did not say that Thailand is a lawless place and if it was read that way, it was not my intention...it just operates differently than most western countries. There are also some rather quaint laws there as well which tends to make some operators bolder. For example, the fact that if you say something about someone who has done a 'dirty deal' the guilty one can still go to the local police and file a complaint and have the other party arrested who then has to spend lots of money in defending a criminal action which is a civil action in other countries. Saying the truth is no defence.

Thailand is a wonderful country but there are lots of legal traps for the unintiated.

It is very expensive to hire international lawyers and they are really the only ones to use if you are going up against a local in a smaller city such as Pattaya. In Bangkok, different ballgame.

Even with a court judgement it still does not guarantee that you will collect.

The points that I raised are all documented and were part of the specifications and contract on Creeds boat. It is all there on paper. At the end of the day it is really a matter of whether one wants to throw good money after bad to try and obtain a judgment which may or may not be enforceable. In that regard it is a business decision. Creed may still opt to proceed with court action but I know from some top level lawyer friends in Bangkok that it could drag on 5 years and costs LOTS of money.

Warren

[Frosty]

Of course it operates differently from Western countries,--its Thailand.

An international lawer is useless. The Thai courts are Thai only, all documents presented will have to be Thai. You need a fluent Thai speaker don't you think?

You need a Thai lawer.

Ive only lived here 20 years and Ocean Marina is about 2 Km away from me.

You are misinformed, if you win the case the foreigner will be in a lot of trouble believe me.

Yes it could take a long time. Pattaya -Bangkok? ---no difference what so ever.

[warmat]

Hi Frosty...when I was referring to an international lawyer I was referring to an international firm of lawyers who have operations in Bangkok...and there are many. I agree that it would be crazy to hire an international firm outside of the country. These firms have Thai litigators on staff. Of course all the documents have to be in Thai as the proceedings are obviously in Thai.

However, the contracts and all the documentation in the case of Creed (and myself) are in English. This is why it is desirable to use a larger firm, not a local lawyer. It is a big job. The briefing has to be done in English (assuming the customer is English speaking). It should be done in the presence of both the English speaking lawyer and the Thai litigator who is usually bi-lingual.

Then there is all the translations to be done, and the on going difficulties of continuing communications from over the other side of the world.

Local lawyers often do not have the resources to put all this together properly and no matter which lawyer you use...(and this is the same world-wide) you are effectively giving them an open check book, which is when you have to make a decision as to which is better...business prudence or principles.

Whichever way you look at it one has to be prepared to spend a lot of money to litigate and at the end of the day there is no certainty about the final outcome no matter how strong a case you feel you have, and in the event of a successful judgement...no guarantee of collecting. On the last point this can be a problem no matter where you are in the world. I once wrote off $7M in the US even though I had a water tight case. It would have cost me $1M+ to get it through the courts but as the lawyers admitted I would never see a dime of it as there were a number of mechanisims that the defendant could use to avoid paying.

If I was suing an individual, or a small firm or a company that may be insolvent then I would want the court to require the defendant to put an appropriate amount of money in escrow...at least to cover the legal costs...

At the end of the day no matter how good the paper work and evidence is or how strong a case may be, justice does not always prevail. So, sometimes it is best just to accept the losses and move on.

Warren

[boat fan]

Frosty can you explain what you mean when you say :

"if you win the case the foreigner will be in a lot of trouble believe me".??

[Frosty]

Well--as a foriegner he can be asked --forced to leave the country, he may have family here and probably does.

His fine will not be as negotiable as others!!!!. His work permit may and probably will be cancelled.

All this can be repaired but what a pain, and the cost will be substantial.

He has more to loose than that of the local.

[boat fan]

Oh boy !...................OK...... I get it now................thanks...



Also ...(often wondered about this ....) If an ex pat aussie wanted to stay in Thailand ....are there a lot of conditions / criteria to satisfy ?

[Frosty]

As an Aussie --hardly nothing.

Ive just come back from the Immigration actually as I have just converted a non immigrant visa obtained outside the country like Pinang or better you own country before leaving.

This visa can be converted to a retirement visa and you can stay for 1 year,--- this can be re rewnewable without leaving the country.

You have to be over 50, have 800,000 baht in a savings account in Thailand and you cant work without a work permit. Thats it,-- you can stay forever as long as you meet that simple criteria.

I will get my passport back on Monday afternoon at 1 PM I will then apply for a multiple re entry permit allowing me to exit and re enter the country as many times as I want on that retirement visa.

All that costs me about 100 pounds per year.

That Visa also allows me to get a driving licence, buy a condominium or buy a company that may or may not have a house as assets.

In other words buying a company that owns a house and Thai land means you own a house in your name through a company.

You can also buy a vehicle and register it in your name.

[boat fan]

800.000 baht ....that`s only $ A 27,000.00

Can that be right :?:

All sounds easy Frosty.....:cool:

[Angélique]

Well--as a foriegner he can be asked --forced to leave the country, he may have family here and probably does.

His fine will not be as negotiable as others!!!!. His work permit may and probably will be cancelled.

All this can be repaired but what a pain, and the cost will be substantial.

He has more to loose than that of the local.
Frosty,

Forgive me that I don't understand. But do you mean RB by "he" and "His" ?

Regards, Angélique

[Angélique]

800.000 baht ....that`s only $ A 27,633.84 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=800000+THB+in+AUD&meta=&aq=f&oq) (forgive me the small correction)

Can that be right :?:

All sounds easy Frosty.....:cool:
And it's only € 16,389.36 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=800000+THB+in+EUR&meta=&aq=f&oq) :)

Sounds good !!!

Thailand here I come ;)

Regards, Angélique :cool:

[Frosty]

No mistakes there or exaggeration,-- I assure you 100%. I just did it yesterday and thats how most do it. Those that dont use that system are generally held up with the 800,000 baht thing. Its also the way Thai immigration prefers, they can then keep track of who you are and unwanted criminals or more important pedophiles,--which against popular believe are despised.

Why would you think it more difficult. There is a lot of expats here and some would say it has lost its charm. The bigger expat cities are more like European cities, the shopping is tremendous if thats what you want.

But 15 minute drive will take you out to "thailand' as it once was with deserted beaches and small fishing communities.

thaivisa.com if that doe'snt work google it.

[sabahcat]

Malaysia does a good one as well
http://www.mm2h.gov.my/

but you need more $$$ behind you than Thailand
http://www.mm2h.gov.my/conditions.php

Malaysia My Second Home Programme is promoted by the Government of Malaysia to allow foreigners who fulfill certain criteria, to stay in Malaysia for as long as possible on a multiple-entry social visit pass.

The Social Visit Pass is initially for a period of ten (10) years, and is renewable.

ELIGIBILITY

It is open to citizens of countries recognised by Malaysia, regardless of race, religion, gender or age. The programme allows applicants to bring with them their spouses, parents and children. Foreign spouses of Malaysians and expatriates who wish to retire in Malaysia after expiry of their Employment Passes are also eligible to apply to stay in Malaysia on this programme.

Applicants are allowed to bring their spouses, unmarried children below the age of 21 and parents above the age of 60 as dependants.

[Frosty]

Malaysia my second home is useless. First it is very expensive to apply and only certain lawers can do so , they seem to be located in Kuala Lumpur.

You need more than Thailand in the bank and you cant spend it --it has to be fixed. It gives you 10 years of stay, why you would want to I dont know. Malaysia is a dirty place. You can import your car or any vehicle tax free.

I am very skeptical about dragging a family with you!!!!, ive not heard that, but then Im not ever going to live in Malaysia when Thailand is just next door. I only stay in Malaysia because my boat is there,---there is no other reason. It is Islamic and has islamic laws.

A teacher was seen drinking beer in public just before Ramadan about 6 weeks ago . She was sentenced to be flogged for this heinous crime.

Give me the Buddhist any day.

[boat fan]

I suppose they would think $ A 27K would go a long way if you live like a local Thai. So , Frosty why don`t you move your boat :D ? Have we hijacked this thread ?:(

[sabahcat]

Malaysia my second home is useless.

<Snipped>

Give me the Buddhist any day.

I don't know why you would want citizenship in either.

When I get in the water and up there I planned on doing the Thai thing and when time was up do a slow trip to Sabah and back to Thailand figuring that would meet requirements without any cash outlay.

I personally much prefer Malaysia, those Thai touts and Tuk Tuk Mafia drove me insane and I couldn't wait to get back to the piece and quiet of Penang;)

A teacher was seen drinking beer in public just before Ramadan about 6 weeks ago . She was sentenced to be flogged for this heinous crime.

I am neither Muslim or a teacher so shall be unaffected by these rules, but am not foolish enough to thumb my nose at the laws in a small part of the country that is less moderate than others.

[Frosty]

If you sail to Thailand you will need to temporary import it, as does aircraft , heavy machinery ,tower cranes etc etc.

This gives you 6 months extend able to 1 year, you MUST then leave or face a hefty fine and tax. So every year regardless of weather you need to chug off down to Langkawi just over the border --stamp in and out and return to Thailand where the whole joke starts again --sigh.

Marinas In phuket are just about full,--well --too full to be able to negotiate.

You can register the boat in Thailand when you will be able to leave it there. You still can not charter without a work permit, infact if the boat is Thai registered you will now need a work permit to drive it in Thai waters. You will also need all the certification of a Thai reg vessel that you would be exempt from if you were foreign, radio certificates etc.


Langkawi is duty free, fuel is cheaper, beer is cheap cheap and the island is not Islamic radical. It has an international airport and is tourist destination, it is actually called Langkawi geopark, it has lovely beaches and hundreds of restaurants.

But --you can leave your boat there forever and ever and when you return you still own it and it has not been commandeered by some General.

It is much better that the smokey shit hole George town of Pinang. I can not afford to drink ---anything in Pinang. I only go there for the occasional medical complaint or check up. it is 69 miles south of Langkawi and I can get there by ferry and a bus from Kedah in 3 hours.

[sabahcat]

If you sail to Thailand you will need to temporary import it, as does aircraft , heavy machinery ,tower cranes etc etc.

Have you any info on this you can steer me towards?

This gives you 6 months extend able to 1 year, you MUST then leave or face a hefty fine and tax.

So every year regardless of weather you need to chug off down to Langkawi just over the border --stamp in and out and return to Thailand where the whole joke starts again --sigh. Marinas In phuket are just about full,--well --too full to be able to negotiate.

I thought they were cracking down on that

Final Crackdown on back to back tourist visa's (http://teakdoor.com/thai-visas-and-visa-runs/56554-final-crackdown-on-tourist-visas.html)



You can register the boat in Thailand when you will be able to leave it there. You still can not charter without a work permit, infact if the boat is Thai registered you will now need a work permit to drive it in Thai waters. You will also need all the certification of a Thai reg vessel that you would be exempt from if you were foreign, radio certificates etc.
Forget that


Langkawi is duty free, fuel is cheaper, beer is cheap cheap and the island is not Islamic radical. It has an international airport and is tourist destination, it is actually called Langkawi geopark, it has lovely beaches and hundreds of restaurants.

But --you can leave your boat there forever and ever and when you return you still own it and it has not been commandeered by some General. Plan was to loosely base myself here and stooge between the 3 duty free Malaysian ports and back.

It is much better that the smokey shit hole George town of Pinang. I can not afford to drink ---anything in Pinang. I only go there for the occasional medical complaint or check up. it is 69 miles south of Langkawi and I can get there by ferry and a bus from Kedah in 3 hours.
I certainly wouldn't base myself here, but I do like Penangs history and have a few favorite eating places on the beach at the southern end and in GT.
I'll have cheap piss from Langkawi when I arrive for a week or 3 on the way to Singapore and Sabah;)

At the end of the day, we like Malaysia and have no issue.....yet. We liked Thailand as well, but as stated, the touts where something else, but at least you can run away to the boat.

[Frosty]

Touts are every where!!!!, is it a problem to say I don't want anything?

They pressure you? Oh dear thats terrible, better stay at home then.

There is no such thing as an intimidator only the intimidated.

There is nothing misunderstood on your link , if your not 50 years old things are different , I explained this.

3 duty free ports??? Langkawi --Labuan and ????

[sabahcat]

Touts are every where!!!!, is it a problem to say I don't want anything?

They pressure you? Oh dear thats terrible, better stay at home then.

There is no such thing as an intimidator only the intimidated.

I agree, touts are everywhere, but the greatest concentration of them I have ever experienced are in Thailand.

Yes, I can say no, but I shouldn't have too at the very second I step on the footpath and for every step after that.

I prefer to base myself in a land where the touts are almost non existent, why do you seem so offended at this concept?

There is nothing misunderstood on your link , if your not 50 years old things are different , I explained this.

OK, I am not 50 and wont be when I get up there. I am still interested in the temporary import info you suggest I will need as a visitor.

3 duty free ports??? Langkawi --Labuan and ????

I may be mistaken but I think Johor has a duty free area not far from Danga BayThe Johor Bahru tourism complex was opened by by Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in April 1988 and officially declared a duty-free territory in May 1997.
http://www.dfnionline.com/article/Sriwani-to-redevelop-Johor-Bahru-duty-free-zone-1065325.html

This site also suggests some more, including Langkawi, Labuan and Tioman islands

http://www.etourz.com/malaysia/duty_free_zones.htm

[Frosty]

YES sorry Tioman is duty free. Touts annoy me because they don't,-- but seem to annoy everyone else.

It is simply a matter of looking like you know what you are doing, I realy dont get any trouble. As far as saying that touts are more in Thailand than anywhere else is,---well? have you been to Spain , very aggresive time share touts.

Speak Thai, "I don't want anything" and they will be gone in a second. They congregate around you because you look unsure and don't know where to go or what to do, thats the only reason.

I assume your speaking of the taxi maffia at the airport? The police have recently made many arrests here and it should improve.

[sabahcat]

YES sorry Tioman is duty free. Touts annoy me because they don't,-- but seem to annoy everyone else.

Touts annoy me because they are touts.
If I want to buy something I will buy it.
Having it jammed in my face makes me walk away and not buy at all, Thailand missed out on a lot of my spending money due to this simple fact.

In my next upcoming 7 week Asian adventure, Thailand misses out on ALL of my money, for that very reason.

Malaysia gets 5 weeks of it.

It is simply a matter of looking like you know what you are doing, I realy dont get any trouble.
I disagree.
Even when I knew exactly where I was going and knew exactly where I was going they were on me like stink on shit.

I believe it is that I am not Thai and Thailand relies heavily on foreign dollars, and the foreigners are/were few and far between when I was there a few months ago.

As far as saying that touts are more in Thailand than anywhere else

That is not what I said, what I said was I agree, touts are everywhere, but the greatest concentration of them I have ever experienced are in Thailand.

As I have not been everywhere in the world, It is obvious that there can be more aggressive touts somewhere in the world. The point I made, which is clear in earlier posts, is that in Malaysia, where we went, the touts where non existent.

have you been to Spain , very aggressive time share touts.
I live near the Gold Coast, we have very aggressive time share touts as well, but I never had them continually approach me on scooters asking if "I can speak English" and then try and sucker me to another address in the free taxi on standby to try and flog a unit or a holiday to me with some bullshit story of free goodies if I come along. Been there done that.

On a recent Thai trip this happened at least 20 times a day, every approaching scooter made me cringe, until we rented our own car so as not to have to be harassed by them.
We also got to avoid the continual Massage, suit, belt, Tshirt, tour touts as well by driving ourselves.

Speak Thai, "I don't want anything" and they will be gone in a second.Until the next one comes along.
Saying no firmly in English and continuing to walk worked as well, but, the point is I may as well just say it continually.
The novelty wore off after saying it 10 times before we had even had breakfast.

They congregate around you because you look unsure and don't know where to go or what to do, thats the only reason.

Thats bullshit, I am very sure of myself, I new exactly where I was , where I was going and what I was doing at all times

I assume your speaking of the taxi maffia at the airport? I purchased a ticket for Airport Limo totaly ignoring the taxi touts there. I talk more of the Tuk Tuk drivers who continually hound walkers with tuk tuk taxi as one walks past.

If I wanted one I would get one wouldnt I, I wouldnt be walking. Whenever asked about the price they wanted to charge as much for a 500metre ride as the 40 klm trip from the airport, so guess what? They got to wait for the next sucker.

Me being apparentlyunsure and don't know where to go or what to do hired a newish car for approx 800-1000thb a day and drove myself

The police have recently made many arrests here and it should improve.
So you now admit that there is a problem:rolleyes:


Like I said if Thailand is your bag, great for you but don't get so pissed off if it is not for everyone.

I will visit again, on the whole, I like the place and the people.
Not all of them viewed me as a walking cash machine.
But, I will always be on guard while there and have an escape to somewhere less "in my face" planned.

Now, how about that Wharram Tiki wrecked in Thailand ?

[Frosty]

What can I say? in the 20 years ive lived here only once did a guy ask me to play a scratch game and he was English. I bet him 100baht that I would win and he would then jump up and down and tell me I had won . We would then go off somewhere quiet where he would try to sell me something> He left faster than he arrived.
The touts I have experienced are at the airport only-- only.

Yes the Taxis toot at you but they dont stop and talk. they are telling you by tooting they are there.

I know what I know and after 20 years Ive never heard such stories, Im sorry you have had such a hard time but I think you are grossly exaggerating them especially when you say Malaysia has none.

You don't get rickshaw touts at Pinang ferry terminal? or taxi touts at Kuala Lumpur bus station? You can not walk down Chulia street in Pinang without an Indian wanting to sell you iether a taxi ride, rickshaw, Thai visa service, or a bus ticket to where ever you want to go.

I don't think you have been, I think these are stories of someone else.

You've been there a few weeks,-- I came here to live in 89. I cant remember how many times Ive bussed across Malaysia to Tioman and Johore.

Im sorry but your talking crap. I cant help you, you have a distorted view on things.

[sabahcat]

The touts I have experienced are at the airport only-- only.

Yes the Taxis toot at you but they dont stop and talk. they are telling you by tooting they are there.

So you have never walked past big groups of red tuk tuks at Patong or Pattaya and have them all ask the same question?
And then again 5 minutes later when you walk past again?

If I said no to the first one in the group you would think the rest in line would figure don't want one as well.

The same with shops. You have never walked down a street and had almost every shop try and get you in the door for a massage, suit, shirt, tout, etc etc?

Can you truthfully answer no to this question?

You don't get rickshaw touts at Pinang ferry terminal? or taxi touts at Kuala Lumpur bus station?
Of course you do, but not with the same zeal and certainly not with the same outrageously inflated "Tourist" prices and I've never had the "I'll just stop in to a mates shop so they can try and flog you some stuff" on the way to a destination, and if you say no to the stop, well the price for the fare just became more expensive.

I don't think you have been, I think these are stories of someone else.

Really?

I'm sure you can recognise the stamps being from the region

You've been there a few weeks,-- I came here to live in 89. I cant remember how many times Ive bussed across Malaysia to Tioman and Johore.
Good for you
Your experience has been different to mine, isnt it great that we can all view things differently.

Im sorry but your talking crap. I cant help you, you have a distorted view on things.

Just talking from my admittedly limited experience and the comments from others I know who have been as well.

Like I said, I will go back, but I prefer Malaysia where I am not viewed as a walking ATM to withdraw and overcharge at will and yes, I have been overcharged in Malaysia, but only small amounts and certainly not to the same extent.

One only has to look at expat forums like Teak Door (http://teakdoor.com/) to see that my observations are shared by many

Oh, and you forgot to end your comments with a cheezy grin and "Stupid Farang":p

[Frosty]

You said there was no touts in Malaysia, do I have to cut and paste it? Now you admit there are but not as naughty.

There are no red tuk tuk taxis in Pattaya,,--------NONE. Listen to me!!! not one. Theres some used for advertisements. The taxis system is different from Bangkok. So your are lying when you walk past tuk tuks asking you if you want a tuk tuk in Pattaya.

Patong is an area of Phuket and they dont use tuk tuks iether ,--I think you mean Patpong off Suriwong Rd and is a real tourist area.

Your an excitable sort of person and im sure easily encouraged into exaggeration. Your experiences are that of a tourist and no different than any other destination,- you need to get about more. Try India,--dare you.

[sabahcat]

Patong is an area of Phuket and they dont use tuk tuks iether


Bullshit

Have a look here

Walk around and tell me how many hundreds of tuk tuks you see

http://www.mapjack.com/?WgiwT8NsWciC

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/402/tuktuk.jpg

I think it's you that needs to get out more frosty

Get out into the heat and melt off some of that chilly demeanor. :p

[boat fan]

Hey guys .....I think your`e a wee bit off topic......:D

[Frosty]

You call those tuk tuks, Oh I see ha ha ha


Well Ok then.--- A tuk tuk is really the 3 wheeler variety of Bangkok.

http://www.thailandtuktuk.net/


Show me the pics of "tuks tuks" in Pattaya that you say you walk past , or even a songtaow (your 4 wheel tuk tuk).

Just tell me the street, area outside what where? there is none.

Ive just asked my Thai wife what a tuk tuk is, she said its a 3 wheel taxi. Do you think she is wrong?

Those little trucks of 4 wheels is a "songtaow" or to a tourist that knows FA,---it is a "baht bus" I guess the word tuk tuk would cover it.


I suppose when you go to a bar your just shout "beer" or "food"

Farang papabobo.

Enjoy your trip, your took a lot of photos of a place you did'nt like very much!!

Maybe if you used the right words you might not get touted, ha ha.

Do you wear shorts with white trainers and have white legs covered in mosquito bites and a ball cap on with the nib up and a camera round you neck and a Tshirt--- "I love Thailand" Oh and zinc cream splattered on your nose?

ha ha you cant see it but on the back of that shirt it says

"Tourist
please tout me"

You cant see it but its there.


Off topic? how? Thailand!!!

[boat fan]

Off topic? how? Thailand!!!


OK ....Sorry ...carry on .....:)

[sabahcat]

You call those tuk tuks, Oh I see ha ha ha


Well Ok then.--- A tuk tuk is really the 3 wheeler variety of Bangkok.

http://www.thailandtuktuk.net/



Yes, I call those Tuk Tuks

Why? Because the clowns driving them called out Tuk Tuk Taxi as I walk past.

Good enough reason to suspect that they may be called Tuk Tuks dont you think?

Plus these sites confirm what I thought

http://www.phuket-guide.net/phuket_home/gettingaround.htm
http://www.patong-beach.com/patong-info/travelaround.htm
http://www.phuket-info.com/forums/general/4053-tuk-tuks-patong.html
http://www.phuket.net/visit-phuket/tips/tuk-tuks.htm
http://www.patongdining.com/tuk-tuk-ride-south-patong-beach-road.html
etc etc etc

They even have pictures http://www.phuket-guide.net/images/tuktuk2.jpg and comment about them in none to favorable tones

I suppose you will now say they are all lies written by farangs?

Ive just asked my Thai wife what a tuk tuk is, she said its a 3 wheel taxi. Do you think she is wrong?

See above

Those little trucks of 4 wheels is a "songtaow" or to a tourist that knows FA,---it is a "baht bus" I guess the word tuk tuk would cover it.

I guess it would, especially as the drivers call them that


I suppose when you go to a bar your just shout "beer" or "food"
Nope, you would be wrong there and what does that have to do with anything?

Farang papabobo.Insults?:rolleyes:

Enjoy your trip, your took a lot of photos of a place you did'nt like very much!!

How would you know? I haven't shown any here, the pic above is a screen cap.

Maybe if you used the right words you might not get touted, ha ha. strange, I dont always use the "Right" words in other parts of the world but dont seem to be taken advantage of.

Must be a thai thing eh? Bite the hand that feeds. Remember what I said about feeling like a walking ATM machine, but only in Thailand?

And I never said anything, I walk down the road looking and saying nothing............thai people must be able to read my mind and see that I use the wrong words and must be a stupid farang who can be ripped off.

Do you wear shorts with white trainers and have white legs covered in mosquito bites and a ball cap on with the nib up and a camera round you neck and a Tshirt--- "I love Thailand" Oh and zinc cream splattered on your nose?

No I dont, no mossie bites (heard of repellent?) well tanned from sailing, no camera around neck and no zinc cream.
As for the tshirt I did think of getting one of these descriptive shirts (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/2970324318_a8e10bf537.jpg?v=0)

I am surprised that they have them in Thailand as you seem to think there are no tuk tuks or touts so why would they need theshirts? Who would buy them? :p

ha ha you cant see it but on the back of that shirt it says

"Tourist
please tout me"

You cant see it but its there.

And its attitude and comments like that and the other comments that you have made that gives the place a bad name.

I wouldn't hold up your hand for a job with the tourism board, you do them no favours.

Thanks for confirming everything I said.

[Frosty]

What ever you say!!!

I live here, you don't, it ends here, I have no more information for you, Im sure you will find your own way through Customs, Know where it is? Oh dear --good luck.

I must be mad , arguing with a tourist!!!

[RHP]

Is it my turn yet?

[Frosty]

RHP where have you been? ive been waiting for you ,---yup your on now--

[Angélique]

Can I sum up..... ?
Malaysia fan http://images.zaazu.com/img/000195-medium.gif ‘‘duty calls’’http://images.zaazu.com/img/000579-medium.gif
Thailand fan http://images.zaazu.com/img/000342-medium.gif ‘‘duty calls’’http://images.zaazu.com/img/000579-medium.gif

‘‘duty calls’’ ‘‘duty calls’’
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

About OT.....
The average OT ‘‘reader’’ http://images.zaazu.com/img/000733-medium.gif or http://images.zaazu.com/img/000714-medium.gifor http://images.zaazu.com/img/000368-medium.gifhttp://images.zaazu.com/img/000388-medium.gif

http://images.zaazu.com/img/000272-medium.gif Angélique http://images.zaazu.com/img/000272-medium.gif

[RHP]

Fair summary !

[scsailor]

This accident proves only one thing: Tiki idea with ropes does not work today.

Not at all. There are many Wharrams out there sailing for years with lashed beams, myself included. Modern line, properly used, is more than strong enough. I just relashed my aft beam yesterday after some maintenance using 5 wraps of 6mm Sta-Set: that beam is not going anywhere.

[Frosty]

They have invented nuts and bolts now.

[scsailor]

They have invented nuts and bolts now.

Sta-Set was invented after "nuts and bolts." It has advantages, such as not rusting or sudden failure.

[warmat]

Hi Scsailor,

I am glad you commented on the rope issue. It really amazes me how some people seem to get their kicks in forums out of trying to knock things that they have limited knowledge about. The rope issue is a case in point. James Wharram is an intelligent man and I am sure has more sea miles under his belt than anyone else on this forum.

And James sea miles are real ones in all latitudes. Those versions of Wharrams that have beam lashings have been designed that way and if done properly are indeed stronger than 'nuts and bolts'.

For those people who doubt this and believe that it was the fault of the lashing designs that caused Creeds boat to come apart in Pattaya, may I remind them that the Tiki which was washed ashore in the Tsunami at Phuket stayed intact. And that came ashore in real force not a gentle 'tap' such was the case when Creed's boat came ashore.

Of course if the lashings are not done in accordance with the plans they may well come undone and naturally the hulls will come apart. Given that there were signs that the lashings were already starting to loosen just a few days after the launch of Creed's boat (I saw them) I am not surprised that they did come apart. I think people should question the boat builder who did the lashing on Creed's boat (and they did do them because I saw it being done in the yard).

They should not question the lashing design as it is well proven.

Warren

[Frosty]

Its string,--- it will rot or worse chafe at 4 in the morning in a gale.


WHY? when you can buy fasteners? rust!! nonsense you can buy stainless steel.

Admit it , you are minimalists trying to justify your fetish.

[warmat]

Frosty...you should do some research on modern cordage. It is hardly string.

I personally don't have a minimalist 'fetish'. Follow my blog at www.naturalhigh-adventures.com and as you will see over the next month or two as the boat gets completed it is hardly minimalist with a watermaker, sound systems, genset, fridge, freezers and other comforts that make being on the water a pleasure.

Agreed some Wharram owners/builders go the minimalistic way. Sometimes it is due to tightness of funds, sometimes because of their personal philosophy. Irrespective, each person is entitled to what works best for them.

Do you think that is is fair to accuse people because they take a particular approach that it is to satisfy a fetish? I have seen many boat owners do things with I think is strange, but each to his own.

Irrespective Frosty I think that you should accept other people's views and respect their choices. Other people know more about the longevity and practicality of lashings on Wharram's than you do. When it comes to experience I will take the advice of a true blue water sailor such as Wharram other than someone who claims to be an expert on all things without the personal experience.

I will make no further comment on this matter.

[jamez]

Its string,--- it will rot or worse chafe at 4 in the morning in a gale.


WHY? when you can buy fasteners? rust!! nonsense you can buy stainless steel.

Admit it , you are minimalists trying to justify your fetish.


No. You've got it all wrong. Wharrams lashed crossbeams have been well proven on relatively (and I stress the word relatively) low stressed catamaran platforms with low aspect rigs. I've got one. it had bolted beams and was changed to wider lashed beams. The lashings work fine. The braid has a breaking strain twice the weight of the boat and there are 4 turns of it. It won't rot and there is nothing for it to chafe on. Stainless steel will rust in the right circumstances.

Are you genuinely interested in discussing points raised, or are you just a troll?

[Frosty]

It is minimalist boat building. Like the bamboo hulls imitating the early chinese.

Experimental fun,-- I hope it holds together

This thread was formed about Wharrams breaking up on the beach and my friend lost his the same way on Ko Samui. They are minimalist rubbish. I just hope someone does'nt loose their life saving you.

[warmat]

Frosty...maybe your friend had his built by the same builder?

Properly built boats don't break up...certainly not in the Gulf of Thailand. Ask Maxim in Phuket whose Tiki got hit by the Tsunami wave. If you have TV you may have seen it. It was shown on international news being hit by the wave and dumped ashore. The lashed beams held it together nicely. But, then they were installed by Gunther Nutt of Seascape in Phuket who knows how to build them...properly.

[Frosty]

So if they are not lashed by an expert they -DO- break up.

It does'nt need an expert to put nuts and bolts in. Just about every Wharram I have seen in this climate has fallen apart. My friends was rotten as a carrot and cost a lot to repair --and it still broke up.

It just seems silly to try with them, get a proper boat.

[warmat]

Frosty, are you a friend of the builder that built the Wharram that is the subject of this thread? You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder regarding Wharrams and by inference in a number of your posts you are suggesting that the boat that was wrecked in Pattaya was the fault of the design, not the builder...which it was. Are you prepared to identify yourself?

You make some silly statements. You know full well you don't have to be an 'expert' to fit the lashings to the beams on a Wharram. You just have to have some degree of common sense and follow the directions.

Then of course like any boat, maintainence is required and with the Wharram that means periodic tightening of the lashings. If you have had anything to do with boats you should know that even 316 stainless can be problematic over time if not properly maintained.

How can you infer that boat rot is a Wharram fault? Boats of all type around the world rot if they are built of poor quality timber. Agreed there are some pretty awful Wharrams around, but that is not the fault of the design, but rather the result of the builder taking short cuts, using poor quality materials or simply as we have seen on this forum not following the plans and specifications.

[Frosty]

I agree there is some damn awful Wharrams about.

In this world of boats there a thousands to choose from.

I dont find them attractive or have anything going for them, least of all the accommodation which would be ok if you are a chicken.

No protection from weather including the sun.

Sorry minimalist rubbish. Cheapest construction possible , 2 canoes tied together with string is what I see.

[rwatson]

Sorry minimalist rubbish. Cheapest construction possible , 2 canoes tied together with string is what I see.

There are heaps of things that Wharrams can be critiqued on, (lack of room for one) but no-one who has followed their history can doubt their seaworthyness when properly built.

To say that "nuts and bolts" are the solution is to ignore another thousand examples of stainless steel fitting of all types breaking from fatique, rust and over stress. I bet there are a lot of people on this forum (besides me) who have had a perfectly good day ruined by a fitting giving up the ghost, stainless more so than galvinised. heck - people died when their stainless steel keels broke!! Metal is no guarantee of safety in itself.

Look at it this way - every fibreglass boat is built of 'string' - string made of glass at that!

Modern ropes are even stronger than fibreglass "string", and have the advantage that they can flex under load without building up stress fractures under the pressure.

[warmat]

Frosty...who are you?

Your irrational attitude to Wharrams and your agressiveness sound exactly like the builder of Creed's boat that was wrecked and my Tiki hulls and who has been strangely quiet in recent times.

The builder thought they were great boats whilst he was receiving nice advance payments from Creed and myself but when the poor workmanship issues came to light the attitude changed.

Are you a clone of the builder? I am surprised that you are still making some of the silly comments on this forum that you make...for example, they have no shelter from the sun!! If you are so sensitive to the elements that you need shelter from the sun it is easy to make provision for it.

Maybe it should be mandatory that people on this forum should identify themselves and that would avoid people like you running off at the mouth without the brain engaged! But, on the other hand the forum might lose some of its entertainment value.

[Frosty]

I am frosty --thats all you need to know. If you look to the upper right you will see my membership date and my rep points. I am entitled to an opinion as is everyone else.

If your not familiar with the sun then let me tell you it will kill you or give you skin problems like you would'nt believe.

You obviously know very little of the tropics and ---well the weather one can endure on a boat, sorry Wharram catamaran.

How many of these pieces of crap has been lost by surf on the beach. This is what started the thread.

[sloopjb]

Frosty by name, frosty by nature. An old fart with nothing better to do but mouth off on all and sundry. Probably spends the rest of his time dispensing his wisdom(?) on Thaivisa

[sloopjb]

If you are/were thinking of a Thai boat and Frosty's comment gave you a shock:
infact if the boat is Thai registered you will now need a work permit to drive it in Thai waters.

rest assured... ( and so much for his 20? years in the los btw )


source : http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers

Thai skippers’ licences for foreigners

I am a foreigner with a Non-Immigrant O Visa. I am also married to a Thai woman. I would like to get a Thai skipper’s certificate for a boat of up to 30 tons displacement.

I don’t have a work permit. I just want to cruise around with my boat. Where do I have to go and what do I have to bring with me?
Beached Sailor, Chalong. Friday, May 14, 2004

“You must come to the Phuket Marine Office and bring with you the following:

- Your passport and a letter from a consulate or embassy of your home country verifying that the passport is genuine, accurate and valid;

- Three two-inch photos of yourself;

- A medical certificate verifying that your are fit to skipper a boat.

- If you have it, a certificate to show that you have two years’ experience or more as captain of a yacht.

- If you have an existing master’s certificate from another country, you should bring it with you for us to look at. We may be able to issue you with a Thai license without a test.

You do not need a work permit but we must be sure that you have the relevant knowledge to skipper a boat. The size of the boat is irrelevant. The license states only the function on a boat that the holder may perform – skipper or engineer for example.

If we decide that you must take a test, you should be aware that although the regulations are already available in English, the information booklet about the test is currently available only in Thai.

An English translation is being done and will be completed soon. The price of the booklet is 500 baht.

Test forms, too, are only in Thai, but you may bring a translator to the exam with you.

The Phuket Marine Office has already received authority from the Marine Department in Bangkok to issue Thai skippers’ certificates to foreigners.”
Friday, May 14, 2004 Kittipong Wasukri, Phuket Marine Office

[warmat]

Frosty...it seems that you are indeed a clone of the builder of the wrecked Wharram. Your profile is meaningless. If you were a well meaning individual and contributed to forums in a constructive way you would not have to hide behind a non de plume.

If you go to my blog you know exactly who I am and if you follow the trail back to the blog I run for my company you will know by reading some of the articles that I know quite a lot about the sun...in fact more than most because health is my business.

Don't get taken in by the misinformation about the sun handed out by sun screen manufacturers. The sun is essential for good health. Contrary to popular belief it does not cause fatal skin cancers. If can cause a type of local skin cancer which is easily dealt with, but not the deadly type which are usually on part of the body which does not even get the sun.

As a matter of fact rates of the deadly skin cancer have increased in recent years since the paranoia of sun exposure has prevented people from getting reasonable skin exposure. This is because they are not getting the healing benefits of the sun.

Fatal skin cancers are as a result of nutrient deficiencies and life style choices. It does not cause excessive wrinkling. I am 62 am hardly have a wrinkle and I have been exposed to a lot more sun than most...and I should mention Frosty that I am familiar with the tropics as for the last 40 years I have alternated my time approx 50% in New Zealand and 50% in the tropics where I am right now.

There are other places than Thailand where the sun is even more extreme due to less ozone. But, I guess you are an expert on this as well as everything else.

[david@boatsmith]

Firstly I'm biased, I think Wharram cats are cool. I'm Also Wharram's USA builder.
Wharrams designs have been built mainly by home builders, many with little in the way of boat building or sailing skills and on a budget where price was th major factor in most decisions. They have been built with recycled materials and equipment and 2nd hand rigs and sails. In spite of all of this his boats have sailed almost everywhere, many times with people with little or no experience when they started. They have earned a reputation of seaworthiness that can't be dismissed. And when they are well built and well equipped and handled by skilled sailors perform very well.
Warram's lashing system is an ingenious solution to both disassembling and to absorbing the intense shock loads that the hull to beam connections have to endure. They will never fail without warning as stainless parts are apt to do. They are inexpensive, lightweight, and very easy to inspect and replace if required. Look at where big racing multihulls fail, it's usually at the beam to hull connection. Look at old Seawinds or Stilettos and see the repairs and stress cracks here.
Finally in the looks department they either do something for you or not, that's personal. I like em. David
www.boatsmithfl.com http://tiki30.blogspot.com/

[boat fan]

Yes I agree David . I do like them too.

I do wish they had more space for accommodation.
As you get older you appreciate " elbow room " .

You need to build a BIG wharram to get it.

[masalai]

The RESPONSIBILITY is the Skippers' in the end.. Ahhh forget it - I am overtired...

[warmat]

Masalai,

What an odd post. You are suggesting that my posts are slanderous? Please elaborate in what way and how they could effectively shut down this forum.

Sloopjib was correct. You don't need a work permit to operate your own boat in Thailand. I don't recollect him saying that he wanted to charter...that of course is a whole different ball game.