Cheap Bluewater Boat

[J.D.Hogg]

Some time ago I asked of this forum, advice by which to build a boat for less money than was truly possible. I was at that time, pointed towards the Albin Vega And Pearson Triton designs. These fit my needs very well but I would not be well informed if I did not ask you good folks for your opinions regarding a very affordable boat. Here is a list of features I am hoping to find in a single craft for less than $5000.

Good seakeeping of course and an easy motion at sea.

A draft of four feet or less for larger inland waterways. (beach-able, while I'm dreaming)

Easily and cheaply repairable.

Easy to single-hand.

Are there any boats in this range that are not sloop rigged? I would love to discover an affordable ketch or schooner.

[bntii]

I picked up a Contessa 26 a few years back for $1000.00 USD. Had sails, engine, anchors/rode the whole kit. Another time I bought a Formosa 36 for $100.00

I believe there is no possible way to build at less than the cost of a serviceable used boat.

Split rig?? Why trade off the efficient sloop? Seems smallish hulls w/split rigs are done up for character status alone.

Look at a Alberg 30. Give up beaching the boat- you want real draft. I cruise all over the east coast- waterway and outside with 6'.

Put up as much $ on the front side as possible. Buying as complete a boat as possible is far more economic than spending years repairing and outfitting a stripped hull.

Be realistic about what you are getting yourself into... "Sailing.. A expensive way to waste time"

http://sailquest.com/market/models/b-cont26.gifhttp://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/r56116/r56118-ashore1.jpg
"The Contessa 26 is an English design which is based on the Swedish Folkboat, and it was built in Canada under licence by J. J. Taylor and Sons. It also was marketed and sold simply as the "J. J. Taylor 26" during the mid 1980s. This boat is clearly robust and overbuilt, and it has to rate as one of the very best ocean-going production boats in its size category. For example, it has no sliding hatch over the main companionway, a feature which makes the cabin roof much stronger and better able to withstand a pounding in an offshore storm. Evidence of this boat's abilities as a bluewater cruiser can be found in the fact that it was chosen by both Tania Aebi and Brian Caldwell in their separate attempts to set the record as the youngest person to complete a single-handed circumnavigation. Because of the nature and origins of this design, the Contessa 26 has a narrow beam and limited elbow room down below."

[J.D.Hogg]

Thanks, that was exactly the type of info I was hoping for. As to why I would seek something other than the sloop rig; it is more a factor of simplicity and ease of handling rather than efficiency. As I understand it, the only clear advantage to the sloop is its upwind ability. Correct me if I am wrong but this efficiency comes at the cost of storing an inventory of sails, increased stresses, more/costlier deck gear and more moving about on deck to manage the rig. I am also concerned about the ease of unstepping the mast. Right or wrong I am willing to accept the fact that I probably have little choice in this price range.

Edit: The more I think about it the more I doubt my earlier statements about bermuda / sloop rigs. Aside from the junk are luggers easier to sail? which is cheaper to maintain or repair?

[FAST FRED]

As to why I would seek something other than the sloop rig; it is more a factor of simplicity and ease of handling rather than efficiency. As I understand it, the only clear advantage to the sloop is its upwind ability. Correct me if I am wrong but this efficiency comes at the cost of storing an inventory of sails, increased stresses, more/costlier deck gear and more moving about on deck to manage the rig

All the above might be true with a 45 to 60 ft sloop.

At 20 ft everything is tiny , easy to handle, the loads are low .

Once the mainsail is over 400sq ft it begins to require some skills and work for a lone crew member.

But in 20 -30 ft the sloop, or cutter (if bigger) presents no problems that would suggest a split rig would be any advantage.

And with any small boat speed counts since the LWL is so low , so a less efficient split rig would be a big disadvantage!

FF

[marshmat]

Alberg 30 for under $5k? That would be quite a catch. (There's one for sale here in Kingston, an ex-charter boat at $25,000 CDN).

Under 35' or so, it's unlikely you'll find any split rigs. The loads on a sloop or cutter are light enough in the smaller sizes that few designers seem to find it worthwhile to split it up.

Cheap to maintain/repair is more a function of the level of refinement than of the basic shape of the rig. A 40' ketch with thick aluminum masts, galvanized shrouds and Dacron sails will likely be a much cheaper rig to maintain than a 25' sloop with a double-spreader carbon mast, PBO rigging and cutting-edge racing laminate sails.

I'm not much of a sailor yet (powerboats and sailing dinghies only, for now) but will be watching this thread with interest....

[Brent Swain]

Junks are horrendously complex, and you dont go to a used sail broker, buy a sail , hoist it and be sailing within the hour. Junks are also hopeless to windward, an dare extremely chafe prone. Just put a big jenny on a roller furler and that 's all you need. I can reef my marconi main in under a minute. How much simpler can it get.
The name "Junk' describes them well.
Brent

[bntii]

Alberg 30s can be had fairly cheap here. A friend of mine just sold his for $2500.00
Lots of boats can be found in fact at surprisingly low prices these days. I do lots of work in a yard which is selling off 4 to 6 30' and under sailboats every year for a few hundred bucks each.
I will ask around to see if there is anything on the chop list that might suit.
My first boat was a Cal 27 which came with a truck load of good sails and was purchased at 2.5k. We sailed the boat many miles with very little invested. The Cal was a GREAT sailing boat which got us on the water, taught us how to sail and got us experienced enough to make a good choice when we moved up to the next boat. I see many many similar boats on the used market which would make great starter boats for folks that can be purchased for very little cash. Just avoid looking at listings. When we purchased the Cal comparable boats were listed at 20k- a unobtainable sum for the poor student I was at the time.

"Cheap" and "Bluewater" is sort of a tough nut to crack. A experienced man can take a light build coastal cruiser and sail it right around the world. The person asking this question might recognize that to become that experienced man, getting out sailing, and sailing as far, wide and often as possible is the only sure way. There are many boats available that will serve.

[J.D.Hogg]

Yes. All helpful advice. A further question; what aside from the keel and overall sturdiness is important to an offshore cruiser? Or, rather, what is avoidable as dangerous? For example, I have heard comments about large companionways being good for comfort but not the safest option.

Ultimately, I am hoping to avoid those craft that give up too much to comfort or racing ambitions.

[bntii]

I've always felt that structural integrity is a bit overrated...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg

All kidding aside, it might be a good time to start buying some books.
This is a great one which covers many of the questions you are raising:

Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts
By John Rousmaniere (Editor), Stephen L. Davis, Rod Stephens

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/bx017.html

Also, look to Dashews 'Bluewater Handbook", Streets 'The Ocean Sailing Yacht', Hendersons 'Sea Sense', everything you can find by Erick Hiscock, Roths books and while your at it don't forget to read Mowatts 'The boat that wouldn't float', required reading for all those who venture out to sea:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1012697821&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dthe%2Bboat%2Bthat%2Bwouldn%2527t%2Bfloat%26x%3D0%26y%3D0

[Brent Swain]

" Blue water " by Bob Griffith or "The Long Way " by Bernard Motessier and Modern Ocean Cruising "or "Offshore Cruising Survey" by a Jimmy Cornell are good reads.
"Seaworthines the forgotten factor " By Marchage is another good read.
I hear rumours Dashew is writing a new book called "How to Cruise on Ten Thousand Dollars a Day"
Brent

[bntii]

I hear rumours Dashew is writing a new book called "How to Cruise on Ten Thousand Dollars a Day"
Brent

Steve Dashew is one of the most talented and experienced designers in the game. His books contain a wealth of valuable information for sailors of all stripes.
It's true- his clients don't include: "parts must be salvaged from the scrap yard" in the design specs.

His site is worth a look for all interested in sailing.

http://dashewoffshore.com/Images/BEOSPIN5-a.jpg
http://dashewoffshore.com/

[marshmat]

The Dashews have certainly put a lot of valuable information in their books and website. (Unfortunately, their publisher seems to have had a bit of a falling-out with Amazon and the other online bookstores, so short of paying a small fortune for direct shipping from the US, their books are hard to get in some places.)

However, nothing about their boats is "cheap" in any sense of the word. Top quality everything does not come with a small price tag- these boats are well beyond what a lot of us will ever be able to afford. (Even for those who can afford a Dashew boat, they're awfully hard to find on the brokerage market- people just don't sell the things.)

Still, there are a lot of clever ideas and a solid design philosophy behind the Dashew boats, that can certainly be put to use on less expensive craft.

[Brent Swain]

High price often has no relation to quality. Someone who assumes that spending more, automatically gets you a better boat or gear , is a con artists dream.
Beneteaus vs older boats is a good example of the fallacy in that assumption.
Brent

[bntii]

J. D. Hogg,

There is a Westsail 28 for sale here at a very reasonable price.
Drop me a line via this forums PM & I will give you the contact information.

Basic info on boat:
http://www.sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=876

[Paul J. Nolan]

A $5,000 budget for sailing offshore? Hahaha! I have only two words for you: Cal 20. Remember that the purchase of a boat is only the beginning. Fitting out and equipping her will consume a lot more. I've seen Cal 20's advertised for $1,000 to $2,500 often enough to know you can find one before you use up your life expectancy. (I've found a couple of screamin' deals on boats, too, but they are few and far between and are usually stumbled upon by being in the life, racing and cruising constantly. Believe me, you'll look for a long time before you find another Contessa 26 for a grand.) A Japanese sailor crossed the Pacific in a Cal 20. He did the modifications to his boat himself and wrote about it in a magazine article, I believe. Start searching the net; you'll find it somewhere.

Beachable? You cannot be serious!

Paul

[bntii]

Believe me, you'll look for a long time before you find another Contessa 26 for a grand.)

Paul

1k is Tough- but cheap is not as hard as one might believe.
Another friend sold his Contessa 26 for 2 or 3 k, I forget now, and there is a very dusty one here for much less than that though it has shot decks.
Agree on the Cals. Some years back I got a chance to see Dave Martins Cal 25 which he had sailed around the world. Cal 27's have also circumnavigated.
GREAT sailing boats- our 27 took good care of us.
Personally- I'd get the Alberg 30 and call it a day.

While thinking about this thread it occurs to me that the thread title may need a bit of a change- there is no "cheap" blue water boat. I believe there are however more and less expensive ways of getting a cruising boat.

Buying a cruising boat is a tough prospect if there is not enough money available. Dreams can be lost and much time wasted while pursuing this goal. I think there are several ways to buy a boat on a budget- some better than others. It's no doubt worth several threads to explore this topic. It's a important aspect of cruising which if mishandled can cost the success of the entire enterprise. Many succeed but we have all seen the sad cases of builds unfinished after decades of effort, and project boats- abandoned as cash, effort and available skills prove to be insufficient to bring the task to completion.

I can take a rough shot at listing some of the types of boat purchase which might be pursued:

1) Purchase new- though expensive and will require additional cruising gear, the systems are fresh.
2) Purchase used in good shape at market value- though still expensive can be a good value compared to new and might include cruising gear upgrades.
3) Purchase used in poor shape- can be cheap but carry the future costs of repair and replacement of gear to be usable.
4) Purchase used with damage- these can be real bargains if purchased carefully. The Florida hurricanes put many of these on the market. Complete cruise equipped boats with some repairable damage is the target animal. I followed quite a few listings- I would not buy any boat that sank but look for cosmetic damage or structural damage which one understands and has the $ or ability to repair. A friend of mine purchased one of these- a Valiant 37 for 10k with good engine and sails/systems. The boat had some slight rudder damage & scratched up paint job. I viewed one beautiful 47' steel ketch which was purchased for 12k- brand new sails, good engine, high build quality. The boat was a insurance write off after a welder with no fire watch had burned out the joinery work in the pilot house.
5) Purchase a not completed kit boat- buy the one that the owner is providing with loads of new gear purchased for the dream boat. These can be had at times for far less than the cost of the purchased parts.
Look at this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alajuela-38-Sailboat-Cruiser-Full-Keel-Isuzu-Engine_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem563576c4beQQitemZ370264163518QQptZSailboats
6) Build it!- Maybe Brent will chime in. He is a strong advocate for getting on the water in a affordable boat you can build yourself.
7) Buy an inexpensive boat in serviceable condition and just go. Like the Cals recommended- they don't cost much and provide maybe the only real way to get out cruising for very little cash.

I'm just talking here but I think anyone going down this road should spend some time in careful thought about what their options are and how to proceed.
I think for many reasons "Cheap" initially is no bargain and may well cost more by the time you are ready to sail.

Don't do what I did- I purchased #3 above- the used boat in poor shape. I thought it was a bargain compared to a incomplete kit boat or a more expensive used boat in good repair. By the time I was finished I had replaced everything while rebuilding the hull to boot. While 'abuilding' I turned down tens of thousands of dollars worth of paying work so I could get the boat finished. I am just about done but like anyone else who has done it- I would not do this again.

You will pay- With your time or your money. Your time being the more valuable of the two.

[J.D.Hogg]

Beachable? You cannot be serious!

Paul

Paul Dream-Crusher Nolan,

No, not really.

I am learning that sailing or cruising has different meanings to different people. For me this will be a full immersion experience. I will move to the east coast and spend however much time it takes to learn, up-fit and out-fit for a circumnavigation. It will be solo and minimalist with many ports of call (or is that port of calls?). My main concerns aside from cost and staying alive are: not going insane and not going ashore looking like I went insane.

Do you all mean to say that the usual $3000 Triton is many thousands of dollars away from a safe ocean crossing?

[bntii]

Do you all mean to say that the usual $3000 Triton is many thousands of dollars away from a safe ocean crossing?

It depends on ones ideals of outfitting and sailing a boat long distances.

EACH piece of equipment that many find required for long distance cruising will cost more than that $3000. These might include a SSB, a water maker, a life raft, a tender, a radar/chart plotter, a sextant, charts around, refrigeration, storm sails, canvas for the boat (dodgers & Biminis), a diesel engine repower, hull/rig/sail repairs, a 406 EPIRB, wind vane, on and on...

Or- one may just determine the boats in good shape- load beer and beans and go.

The difference in approach must stem from experience- a seat of the pants knowledge of what it means to push that boat along in all weathers and reach that port, make that passage, or find the anchorage in rough going.

With some experience you can choose how to equip the boat because you know what you personally need to do the job.

Minimum for me- charts, beer, self steering of some sort & a boat I know I can keep moving in winds from 2 to 40.
"keep moving" means I am confident in the whole kit- steering, rig, sails, engine, hull, bits and pieces like ports close & such.

[Brent Swain]

It depends on ones ideals of outfitting and sailing a boat long distances.

EACH piece of equipment that many find required for long distance cruising will cost more than that $3000. These might include a SSB, a water maker, a life raft, a tender, a radar/chart plotter, a sextant, charts around, refrigeration, storm sails, canvas for the boat (dodgers & Biminis), a diesel engine repower, hull/rig/sail repairs, a 406 EPIRB, wind vane, on and on...

Or one may just determine the boats in good shape- load beer and beans and go.

The difference in approach must stem from experience- a seat of the pants knowledge of what it means to push that boat along in all weathers and reach that port, make that passage, or find the anchorage in rough going.

With some experience you can choose how to equip the boat because you know what you personally need to do the job.

Minimum for me- charts, beer, self steering of some sort & a boat I know I can keep moving in winds from 2 to 40.
"keep moving" means I am confident in the whole kit- steering, rig, sails, engine, hull, bits and pieces like ports close & such.

I cruised for decades and many Pacific crossings before I bought a radar, GPS, watermaker ( under $1,000),SSB etc. I've never had refridgeration, life raft,406 epirb, new sails, and my windvanes never cost me more than $25 to build. I can't think of anything, other than the diesel,which cost me anywhere near $3,000 . I did my first 3 pacific crossings without a diesel, and the education was well worth while.If you can't get away without all that stuff, maybe you are just too unimaginitive or unresourceful to be a cruiser.
Brent

[jmolan]

This is a Golden Hind 31'. Twin keels for beaching. Lot of them cruised the world. Has auto-helm that cost about as much as the boat is asking. $5,000

So these boats are out there, but it seems the good deals are "found" better by walking the yards and docks. When they are really abandon they do not advertise.

I have a few others that are still bugging me because I let them go to someone else....ahh well only so much time....:-)

[Velsia]

Sailing is an expensive pastime, especially if you are test your boat 24/7 on the oceans. Saying this, many people are on our oceans right now in boats you wouldn't beleive float, let alone take on the ocean. The renowned catamaran designer James Wharram did it in "Two girls two catamarans". If your going ocean cruising on an underrated book is "There be know dragons" by Reese Palley.

[Brent Swain]

Sailing is an expensive pastime, especially if you are test your boat 24/7 on the oceans. Saying this, many people are on our oceans right now in boats you wouldn't beleive float, let alone take on the ocean. The renowned catamaran designer James Wharram did it in "Two girls two catamarans". If your going ocean cruising on an underrated book is "There be know dragons" by Reese Palley.

Given that the cruising lifestyle has enabled me to work a month a year and cruise the rest of the year, for decades, I find that not sailing is many times more expensive than sailing.

[Velsia]

I agree with you Brent but its the way you look at it. Are sure its not the money making for 1 month which has enabled you to to sail for 11?

[bntii]

It's no challenge to cruise for less than land based living.

Problem is not matter what the burn rate- money is going out the door.

[Chuck Losness]

Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover
Mark Twain

To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm
foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea... "cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.

"I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford it."
What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the
cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.

What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.

The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.

Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?

- Sterling Hayden (Wanderer, 1973)

[Brent Swain]

I agree with you Brent but its the way you look at it. Are sure its not the money making for 1 month which has enabled you to to sail for 11?

I sure couldn't make enough money in a month to cover my expenses of living on land for the rest of the year. Living on a boat, I make all I need in a month per year.
Brent

[Velsia]

I sure couldn't make enough money in a month to cover my expenses of living on land for the rest of the year. Living on a boat, I make all I need in a month per year.
Brent

Point taken

[dskira]

[QUOTE=bntii;298308]Steve Dashew is one of the most talented and experienced designers in the game. QUOTE]

Very strong statement. In a very narrow line of work perhaps. And even.
They write a lot for sure, other don't.
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

Fully concur Daniel!
Although pretty experienced, they are of course not the only ones, and are still far from perfect! (as nearly all of us, to be fair)

Richard

[bntii]

Here- I'll edit it:

".... is among the more experienced and....."

or "...is a talented and experienced..."


:P

Thanks guys- keeps my honest... and informed.

[jalmberg]

J. D. Hogg,

There is a Westsail 28 for sale here at a very reasonable price.
Drop me a line via this forums PM & I will give you the contact information.

Basic info on boat:
http://www.sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=876

I can't figure out how to PM you, but i'd be interested in the details of this W28... john at identry dot com.

-- John

[jalmberg]

I picked up a Contessa 26 a few years back for $1000.00 USD. Had sails, engine, anchors/rode the whole kit.

Wow... I know the Contessa market pretty well. Best I've seen is $5000. You didn't buy that, you stole it.

-- John

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out my blog: The Unlikely Boat Builder (http://www.unlikelyboatbuilder.com/2009/09/boat.html)

[bntii]

john-
I have sent you a e-mail with the contact info for the Westsail.

[mitiempo]

The Dashews' books can be ordered from their site:http://setsail.com/category/cruising-tools/dashew-books/
There is lots there for everyone, not just those with large boats costing the big bucks.
Beowolf publishing is owned by the Dashews.
Brian

[thecaptain]

OMG, how could you possibly cross oceans on a budget of $5000? The Horror!

It's simple. Buy a boat, check for holes, get yourself a $99 gps, a radio, some charts, some water jugs, some sauerkraut, and for god's sake grow a pair.

Take this guy. He found a steel hull, found a tree for a mast and went sailing while us losers sit here and talk about it. No gps, no compass, no radio, no freaking electricity. He doesn't even have any clothes. Just a sextant, some charts some candles and some water containers.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8256/kehaar02kb65.jpg

You can read about him here:

http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/krislarsson.htm

Now I'm not advocating this guy's modus operandi, but I firmly believe you can go bluewater cruising with under $5000 in equipment, boat included. It just requires patience, a little luck, creativity, elbow grease and a willingness to sacrifice comfort and luxury.

[thecaptain]

This looks like a good under $5000 bluewater boat:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/1456202313.html

Ad says:

Farallon 29 sailboat - $4500 (San Rafael)

ASTRAEA (star maiden) was my home for 10 years, but now I've moved onto another boat, and she is for sale.

You can find information and a brochure about the Farallon 29 at http://chuckburns0.tripod.com/farallon29/id10.html

There is no engine - this is a sailboat, so you will either need to know how to sail, or else add an engine.
(The main sheet is attached aft of the tiller, rather than on the coachroof, for easy single handing.)
If you do need an engine, an outboard would be most practical, though a couple of people are contemplating adding an electric motor.

The low price I'm asking reflects the need to do some fixup - paint shelves, add trim, add lining to some of the interior, connect the water tank to the foot pump.

Aboard is an office sized refrigerator and a microwave oven. There is more storage space - shelves and cabinets - than most boats this size.
The galley and forward sink area are both tiled in matching Italian tile.
The head is Coast Guard legal - it goes only to a holding tank, no overside discharge.
There are AC electrical outlets throughout - a total of five circuits.

The oversized mast and boom allow for a larger than designed sail area - great for Southern California. Here on the bay, I've been sailing her with a fully battened 3/4 sized main and the working jib. There is also a full-sized main and a genoa for lighter winds. (The main sail has the number 33 on it, suggesting it was from a 33' boat.) The mast is tabernacle stepped, so it can be lowered without having to go to the boatyard.

John

from ad:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7776/boatm.jpg

Same design, different name:

http://chuckburns0.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/741brochure3.jpg

http://chuckburns0.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/741brochure4.jpg