RCD Ce proof

[whoosh]

I have found these people excellent to work alongside
Was pleased our new boat went through the structure part with no changes to hull
take look at these extraordinary images of inverted yachts etc

Alasdair Reay is the contact there in Uk

http://www.ceproof.com/Marine/pix.htm
♦

[yachty4000]

What a random plug! Here a list of some more notfied bodies http://www.icomia.com/technical-info/docs/List%20of%20Notified%20Bodies%2008042008.pdf to balance the post.

Interesting you choose to plug the one with the slightly questionable trading record. I am sure CE Proof were the group that use to be based in Hamble and ran into financial trouble. Although I haven't heard any concerns over there work.

[Guillermo]

As far as I know those Ceproof people are not a Notified Body. They seem to be 'non exclusive surveyors' (NES) for some of them (they do not state which ones).
So they do not validate designs, but pass them to a Notified Body of their choice for them to approve it.
NES act as surveyors of a certain Notified Body for stability tests, PCA surveys, etc, etc, and pass the result of such tests to the Notified body for final revision and approval (precisely the kind of work my humble company does for RINAVE).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, Stu.
Cheers.

[whoosh]

As far as I know those Ceproof people are not a Notified Body. They seem to be 'non exclusive surveyors' (NES) for some of them (they do not state which ones).
So they do not validate designs, but pass them to a Notified Body of their choice for them to approve it.
NES act as surveyors of a certain Notified Body for stability tests, PCA surveys, etc, etc, and pass the result of such tests to the Notified body for final revision and approval (precisely the kind of work my humble company does for RINAVE).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, Stu.
Cheers.

actually Guillo they do not pass them on, they are certified and licenced to pass all, from there the builder affixes the plate
It is RCD, who appoint htese people , much as you are appointed
they work through the stabilty the lot, if you look at the website
cheers
THE SILLY POST ABOVE, , Spreading rumour, that one is not even sure of
thats a very scurrulous accusation
I am happy I will forward the spread to you

[Fanie]

I like the trimaran with rigid sail, manufactured by Walker Wingsail. It should sail closer to wind than any conventional sail, to 15 deg if I'm not mistaken.

[apex1]

THE SILLY POST ABOVE, , Spreading rumour, that one is not even sure of
thats a very scurrulous accusation
I am happy I will forward the spread to you

Silly ???

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/23973-ce-proof-boat-surveys.html

http://www.boatingbusiness.com/archive101/2006/august/news/uncertain_future_for_ce_proof

[apex1]

Turkey, an applicant nation for EU membership, has recently begun implementing EU Directives and its prolific and growing manufacturing industry is now having to face-up to the new legislation before joining the Union. Where manufacturers require help, the new CEproof office will be on hand to solve problems.
How old was that statement? We build to CE compliance longer than the most French yards.

[whoosh]

dunno,
most yards I speak to down there use RINA
I wont post my mans name here, will try sort this, but I just researched background and he is a Lloyds Surveyor too, with a degree naval arch from some London Univ.

[apex1]

Most yards here use Turkish Lloyd, followed by BV, RINA and GL. But we are talking sportboats.

[whoosh]

Most yards here use Turkish Lloyd, followed by BV, RINA and GL. But we are talking sportboats.

when I looked into this. in Holland
I was told by a company there, that there are many shonky people offering CE certs, right through eastern eu , slovakia poland you name it, I dunno abt turkey, but WHEN I was in Tr trying find a yard, I found nobody to help with CE cert at all
So who are you using?

[apex1]

Stu, all over Turkey, from Tuzla to Antalya are CE certified boats built. And you know even some megayachts to any class.

[whoosh]

Stu, all over Turkey, from Tuzla to Antalya are CE certified boats built. And you know even some megayachts to any class.

yes in my years research I do know they are skilled, although, I would have had to train in alu
but thats not a big deal, any good woodworker can cut alu, same tools
I can teach anyone with some talent to wheel plates in a day, so its not superskill, like accurate joiner work is, even though it scares people to look at
welding takes a lot longer, up to 5 years

[Ad Hoc]

I don't know what all the fuss is about regarding CE marking etc.

All this is doing (CE marking) is making pleasure/leisure craft conform to a procedure which is basically the same as used by commercial boats and has been for decades. Commercial boats must comply with a set of standards given by Class and Flag with regards to the design and the equipment used on board to be allowed to sail, ie given their PO, permit to operate. Without the Class/Flag certs, the boat wont get its PO and therefore wont get insurance and hence can't sail..well, not legally!

So for 'small boats', this CE procedure is to prevent joe bloggs going down the road to his local hardware store to but a "nice looking" nut and bolt, which would be used to say fix a davit for heavy lifting, as a simple example...or joe bloggs saying, yeah mate she'll be right in a force 6, but no way of providing evidence.

It is just making the leisure/pleasure market more accountable and hence should negligence be found owing to an accident/failure, then appropriate action can now be taken. It is just one big paper trail....

[whoosh]

for ONCE we are totally in agreement
of coarse it is, but Eu has nothing on Au for red tape
NZ is abt free from rules re boats, the people said NO to licencing, although for a NZ reg yacht to clear out , she must have a cat 1 cert
But on the other hand a buyier in Eu will have some protection, when he /she buys a boat SOME I said because once you have one passed you may build a thousand, and whose to say, if a builder builds with that sticky stuff, that they all comply

[Guillermo]

actually Guillo they do not pass them on, they are certified and licenced to pass all, from there the builder affixes the plate
It is RCD, who appoint htese people , much as you are appointed
they work through the stabilty the lot, if you look at the website
cheers

Stu,
If they are appointed they should be a Notified Body, which they don't seem to be, as they do not appear in the list of such entities (See: http://www.icomia.com/technical-info/document.asp?TI_ID=8). Please ask them to clarify this you. They should have a Notified Body number (The one that appears in the list under the name of the entity).

If they are not in fact a NB and they have not forwarded your boat's plans for approval to an appointed Notified Body, then they are just acting as a consultancy engineering firm (precisely what they say they are in their web site), but you have not got an official approval, I'm afraid.

Anyway, even if you have not a NB approval you still can build the boat under the CE rules, of course, but doing so under the "A" module, internal control of production. This implies the builder is the only one who certifies the boat fulfills all RCD requirements. So you, as the builder, are the full and only responsible for all aspects of construction before the authorities, including stability.

Under the CE regulations when you sell a boat to a customer, you have to provide him with an Owner's Manual written following EN ISO 10240: 1995, a Warranty document and a Certificate of Compliance issued by yourself as builder. In such Certificate of Compliance you must state what RCD module has been used to built the boat. Also, if a NB has performed whatever assessment, you must state which one and its CE number.

Now, a bigger than 12m boat (which is your case) built under module A can only reach Category Design D (see the RSG Guidelines (http://ptpub.ucina.it/files/normativa_nautica/normativa_italiana/pdf/guide2009r7_090616__public_1_.pdf), section G, "Conformity Assessment Modules") so only allowed to sail in sheltered waters (waves up to 0,5 m, and force 4 wind). If you sell such a boat in Spain, authorities (who will look at the Certificate of Compliance) will register it as only able to do that, limiting the allowed sailing waters to rivers, small lakes, canals, harbours and the like. You could not legally sail such a boat even inside the Galician Rias!

You shall mandatorily display such Category D in the builder's plate.

Be careful.

[whoosh]

thank for long reply
i see no point is airing what I have in corrospondence here
So will sen to you email
But yes they have only just begun, they will produce 130 page tech manual, dont worry me boy I am not---yet
there is a long list of client, if you care to look
best rgds
Stu\I had to delete many posts because there have been some serious accusations

[apex1]

yes in my years research I do know they are skilled, although, I would have had to train in alu


I laugh my belly loose Stuart!
YOU have to train the Turkish yards in Alu? ......YOU?....
One could easily come to another conclusion reading this:..http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/metal-frame-detail-28371.html

Do you know where Perini Navi builds his Al hulls? (and the complete Maltese Falcon)
Have you ever heard about Proteksan, Ada Yacht, RMK, Dünya, Günay, Turquoise, to name a few.
You have never been in Tuzla, the largest boatbuilding area in the world, with about 100 yards and another 150 boatshops.
You do´nt even know how a CE certification does function, but you tell the people about Al building, ja, ja......................

You are a Welder Stuart Hearn (maybe a good one, maybe not), thats a good job and there is nothing wrong with it, but you are for sure not a boatbuilder, nor are you qualified enough to teach professionals in welding! You are not even qualified to weld to IACS class!
That is the naked truth.
Richard

[dskira]

Stu,
If they are appointed they should be a Notified Body, which they don't seem to be, as they do not appear in the list of such entities (See: http://www.icomia.com/technical-info/document.asp?TI_ID=8). Please ask them to clarify this you. They should have a Notified Body number (The one that appears in the list under the name of the entity).

If they are not in fact a NB and they have not forwarded your boat's plans for approval to an appointed Notified Body, then they are just acting as a consultancy engineering firm (precisely what they say they are in their web site), but you have not got an official approval, I'm afraid.

Anyway, even if you have not a NB approval you still can build the boat under the CE rules, of course, but doing so under the "A" module, internal control of production. This implies the builder is the only one who certifies the boat fulfills all RCD requirements. So you, as the builder, are the full and only responsible for all aspects of construction before the authorities, including stability.

Under the CE regulations when you sell a boat to a customer, you have to provide him with an Owner's Manual written following EN ISO 10240: 1995, a Warranty document and a Certificate of Compliance issued by yourself as builder. In such Certificate of Compliance you must state what RCD module has been used to built the boat. Also, if a NB has performed whatever assessment, you must state which one and its CE number.

Now, a bigger than 12m boat (which is your case) built under module A can only reach Category Design D (see the RSG Guidelines (http://ptpub.ucina.it/files/normativa_nautica/normativa_italiana/pdf/guide2009r7_090616__public_1_.pdf), section G, "Conformity Assessment Modules") so only allowed to sail in sheltered waters (waves up to 0,5 m, and force 4 wind). If you sell such a boat in Spain, authorities (who will look at the Certificate of Compliance) will register it as only able to do that, limiting the allowed sailing waters to rivers, small lakes, canals, harbours and the like. You could not legally sail such a boat even inside the Galician Rias!

You shall mandatorily display such Category D in the builder's plate.

Be careful.


Thank you Guillermo for the clarity of your explainations.
Very usefull.
Cheers
Daniel

[Guillermo]

You're welcome, Daniel.
Glad to be of help.
Anytime.

Cheers.