Cheap efficient wooden boat design - Cambodia

[Cutimo]

Hi, I'm a student at the University of Western Australia, we've been assigned the theme of transport for the Engineering Without Borders Challenge.

The question states they are interested in alternative modes of transport, in particular they would like us to investigate more efficient modes of transportation that could improve the livelihood of communities living on the Tonle Sap in Cambodia.

These people are extremely poor and the main resource for building boats is wood, from local timber.

We were thinking of designing a cheap boat made out of wood for maybe 4-5 people. It would be good to conform with traditional South East Asian designs.

If anyone has any ideas about the hull or motor design or information on any other ways we could improve the transport system it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Tim.

[apex1]

You have answered your question already! Use local boats, local designs. You do´nt do them any favour bringing "western knowledge", you would just destroy functional structures.

[Gannet]

http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5649e/y5649e00.htm

Is a source for wooden fishing boat designs for third world nations

[Ilan Voyager]

I agree with Apex, some well intentioned help may have disastrous consequences for the local economical structures...generally in this kind of small river and lake boats local designs are rather good and it's very difficult to improve.

A study of the local boats has to be made before, you may be surprised of their efficiency and of the ability of the carpenters. In South East Asia there is a very ancient tradition of carpentry.

You can work by "suggestion", I mean you can show a model of boat easy to build like the draketail (of the Chesapeake Bay, google for it) which uses a transverse bottom planking, thus enabling to build boats with "inferior" wood of shorter length. After, leave the local carpenters grab the idea, and make it their, that takes time...

I have found that to give the possibility of hot dipping the local nails improves highly the quality and longevity of the boats. Hot dipped nails may be fairly expensive if imported unless you make a small "rustic" galvanizing boiler. It's very low tech and uses wood charcoal as combustible. The lone thing to import is the zinc in small quantities so the customs officers are not interested to stole it...But check before if the local carpenters are not using tree nails made with hard wood, these nails are very effective.

May be a help in hand tooling will be more effective than trying to import a model of boat...

[apex1]

Is a source for wooden fishing boat designs for third world nations

Yes, that was a perfect example! They "thought" they would do some good. But they neither thought, nor did they any good, they just fuc.ed up the local boatbuilding skills.
We have seen in the South Pac. region how clever we are. Since almost 60 years they did not build their outrigger boats with crab claw sails, now they have nobody left who ever did one. But these boats were extremely capable and seaworthy, our western "designs" cannot compare.
Lets take care and think twice before we bring "help".

Richard

[lewisboats]

The indigenous boats developed for a purpose...sampans are the epitome of what is needed in that area. The "ONLY" thing you need to do is develop a "BETTER" Sampan. Good Luck...

[kroberts]

I don't have experience teaching anyone how to build boats, but I like Ilan's approach.

Don't go there teaching them how to do it. Go there with your boat that you built, and let them look at it while you look at their boats.

Having built hovercraft, I can relate. Somebody comes over and tells me what I have to do, I kick them out and throw things around in my shop for a while, and invent new words all of which have more than three but fewer than five letters. But show up with your own hovercraft and I'll go over to see what you did, and get ideas that I might try to incorporate. The final product probably won't resemble yours, but the exchange of ideas helps stimulate the imagination.

I've been doing some reading on boats before taking the plunge myself, and I think some of the "exotic" boats like what Richard is describing are very aesthetically pleasing in addition to the performance gains he's talking about.

[Ilan Voyager]

Yes, that was a perfect example! They "thought" they would do some good. But they neither thought, nor did they any good, they just fuc.ed up the local boatbuilding skills.
We have seen in the South Pac. region how clever we are. Since almost 60 years they did not build their outrigger boats with crab claw sails, now they have nobody left who ever did one. But these boats were extremely capable and seaworthy, our western "designs" cannot compare.
Lets take care and think twice before we bring "help".

Richard

It happened the same thing here in Yucatan, the invasion by the polyester panga killed all the local wood boatbuilding industry and thus the possibility of a good design made by local shipyards at good price. Conclusion; local fishing boats are unsafe (it's forbidden to the boats of less of 40 feet to go fishing if the wind is over 20 knots and/or the waves over 1.5 feet...I'm not kidding!!!) poorly made by low wages unskilled people with imported from the US polyester resin and fiberglass and using gas thirsty 2S japanese outboards...All that bought with hard earned dollars that are finally sent to already rich countries.

Hell is paved with good intentions. I had an illuminating experience when a NGO asked me for a river boat in Senegal. I understood within the 10 minutes that the local boat made with a monoxyle keel, and a few planks for the topsides (made by splitting logs so no need of a saw, like the viking drakkars) was very good, cheap and with a good longevity when oiled with a local palm oil. Absolutely no need of a new design. The steel nails were the weak point. The problem was easily solved...

A local mechanics had already the idea of adapting a car engine, instead of the 2S outboard, but he hadn't a lathe. The NGO got a used small lathe and with some information I gave to him, the mecanician was able to motorize the boat. I learnt that goat leather boiled in oil can replace rubber for the protection of the joint...This guy was very clever, he needed just a little help nothing more.

[Squidly-Diddly]

While everyone wants to have warm fuzzy feeling about "preserving local craftmenship" the fact is those practices waste an ungodly amount of super expensive and irreplaceable hard wood.

Better off selling one log that will be turned into paper thin "real wood veneer" for 100,000 automobile dashboards and take the check to the local Grumman Boat dealer for a real boat made out of aluminum.

NRA had a story about swamp hunting in Africa. The guides were using rotomolded plastic 'dugout canoes' with rough hewn look, because the hardwood log for a real dugout would be worth several thousand dollars, and a real dugout will often start to split after a couple years, of less.

I wonder what the Start-up/Overhead is a custom rotomolded item.

[apex1]

[QUOTE]I don't have experience teaching anyone how to build boats, but I like Ilan's approach.
Well Ken, I am not sooo overly egoistic, and I like and respect Ilans contributions very much, but THAT was my approach from the first reply!:cool:


I've been doing some reading on boats before taking the plunge myself, and I think some of the "exotic" boats like what Richard is describing are very aesthetically pleasing in addition to the performance gains he's talking about.

That is the point Ken, now we must call them "exotic", but that was everyday transport in all Polnyesia! That was the Bus, the Truck, the Bike! All polynesia was connected by those boats, and they navigated over thousand miles without anything but knowledge (weather, water, light), for more than thousand years. In fact they made boats to a performance we are just today able to copy, involving the highest high tech we can think of. And it was our idiotic arrogance which destroyed it. We first ran them into poverty, now we bring them "help", "aid" "assistance". What a sad sort of individuals are we?

and let me add:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/cheap-garbage-barge-design-cambodia-28779.html
this looks like from the same source, and received the same replies!?!

Regards
Richard

[Ilan Voyager]

While everyone wants to have warm fuzzy feeling about "preserving local craftmenship" the fact is those practices waste an ungodly amount of super expensive and irreplaceable hard wood.

Better off selling one log that will be turned into paper thin "real wood veneer" for 100,000 automobile dashboards and take the check to the local Grumman Boat dealer for a real boat made out of aluminum.

NRA had a story about swamp hunting in Africa. The guides were using rotomolded plastic 'dugout canoes' with rough hewn look, because the hardwood log for a real dugout would be worth several thousand dollars, and a real dugout will often start to split after a couple years, of less.

I wonder what the Start-up/Overhead is a custom rotomolded item.

Happily most of the local boatbuilding uses woods of none interest for the occidental market. You seem to forget that the precious wood will be exploited by a foreign capital company, with some rich local partner and a few corrupt politicians. The people of the area won't see a buck but will stay with the devastated forest...

You do not seem to be aware of the global problem and of the high cost of sending US goods. There is better use of the money. "Local Grumman boat dealer", very good practical joke...

Yes Apex you're right.

[apex1]

Happily most of the local boatbuilding uses woods of none interest for the occidental market. You seem to forget that the precious wood will be exploited by a foreign capital company, with some rich local partner and a few corrupt politicians. The people of the area won't see a buck but will remain with the devastated forest...

Completely concur!!! And I guess that Alik for example, very familiar with SE Asian usances will so too! I do not know the actual Cambodian situation (have been there 10 years ago) but know the very similar Burmese at present. When a local shipwright would use "precious" wood, he would have some nice visitors (late at night).

these are made of "lemon box" wood (hardly to be called wood), although the species is named "Pyinkado" Ironwood! sic...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/open-discussion/31447d1241134839t-where-sany0086.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/open-discussion/31449d1241140739t-where-sany0008-2-.jpg

[peterAustralia]

I will bite

A new Sampan
but made of wood frames and plywood, can coated with epoxy.

[Alik]

I will bite

A new Sampan
but made of wood frames and plywood, can coated with epoxy.

Yeeh, sounds good... But then it is much lighter and is not stable anymore, and does not have emergency flotation.

Thais studied this from FRP longtail fishing boats, another 'benefit' brought by westerners.

[apex1]

Yeeh, sounds good... But then it is much lighter and is not stable anymore, and does not have emergency flotation.

Thais studied this from FRP longtail fishing boats, another 'benefit' brought by westerners.

And now, did you concur or confess?


On the question I brought up with your name...........

[Alik]

There was FPR longtail program funded by international funds, just after Tsunami disaster. Seems like failed project, the boats were much lighter, less seaworthy and less safe.

I understand that FPR will come one day for fishing boats here because cost of wood is increasing. But this will require changes for whole system of building/operation, not just change of boat design :)

[apex1]

Alik, that was a bit "diplomatic" hähh?
And yes, or no?

[Alik]

Just read this, see what people say in comments about FRP fishing boats:
http://www.scandasia.com/viewNews.php?news_id=2996&coun_code=th

We designed that yellow rescue boat, by the way. It was completed and is in service despite all problems with funding.

[apex1]

Jahh, I see
Oversupply of boats
It has been reported in Thai media that there has been an excess supply of 24,000 new longtail boats while the total loss in the whole ******* region was only 4,700 fishing boats. This enormous focus on fishing boats aid exploded as a result of the extensive public attention to tragedy in the fishing village of Baan Nam Khem in Phang Nga.
But Lisbeth and Morten does not recognize this problem in the Krabi area. They did, however, notice how dockyard owners profitted on construction of overpriced boats and they have heard rumours – which cannot be verified – that boats distributed from authorities were first and foremost given to personal friends.
“We said no to support the Governor to build new boats as the price on construction went up a lot,” says Lisbeth.
Along the way they have also personally come across some Thais who tried to fool them; non-boat owners who came to them claiming they had lost their boats.
“My observation - and the reason why we focused on Krabi - is that it got a lot less of attention. Fewer knew of Krabi and it did not have the same large numbers in loss of life but a lot more in material,” explains Morten.
Created 2007-01-12

[peterAustralia]

to Alik,

well lots in this thread have tried to help, we all seem to get a bit of a brush off (perhaps a too harsh a term). Now I will admit that it is being done in a most polite way, and in no way have you been rude. But what I am getting at, is if our ideas are no good, do you have some better ideas of your own? Do the people in Cambodia have any ideas that they have discussed with you.

It is ok to throw stones.. but what are your idea,, you must have some

[petethai]

http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5649e/y5649e00.htm

.................. third world nations

it is a little offending .....


(i am from first world nation)

[Ilan Voyager]

I will bite

A new Sampan
but made of wood frames and plywood, can coated with epoxy.

Plywood and epoxy is not a good idea in Cambodia; out of reach...

The basic idea is to use the local materials and skills. That means also to depend the least possible on imported supplies. That means also that the introduction of new techniques must be accepted by the comunity, and these techniques must be adapted to the technological environment.

To be clear for example a computer driven gas engine has not use; too expensive fuel and engine impossible to fix without a computer and special tooling. But a all iron slow diesel (like the Indian listeroids) using "cheap" lubricant, and able to burn some crude vegetable oil mixed to the diesel fuel is a blessing in a small village. Easy to maintain, easy to use on a grinder, or a pump, or an alternator simply by changing the belts.

The small Chinese diesel engines can be very useful on a boat. You'll be surprised by the weight that can be carried on a boat at 3 knots with 10 HP on a river.

As I have seen in West Africa, the main need is correct quality tooling: for example a 12V 1/2" drill is precious, it can run on a car battery, so even simple good bits...a lot of things can be made with strong files... A drill which costs 60 bucks in the States will cost around 125 in Senegal; imagine that your income is 3 bucks a day and that your saving capacity is close to zero. Can you afford the drill? No. Or a such drill can change a life...

[Cutimo]

hey
firstly thanks everyone for your help so far, our report is coming along nicely. You have given us many areas on which to research, but we still need to go into more detail.
There are a few areas that are causing concern.
. we can not find any prices for wood in Cambodia, details of any wood vendors/sellers would be highly usefull.
. we can't find a good sampan design. Once we find a fairly simple and accurate design we will look at a few ways to maybe modify it so that it will not be as susceptible to storms.
. we also need a good and reliable source for engines we can use. Once we find them, we can look at prices and availiability. We will also be able to look at fitting them to the boats. This is going to be the most pricey part of the boat, so it is essential that it is reliable, clean and cheap.

Any reference sites or sources are helpfull, we are looking at almost everything that we are given

Thanks