Hickman Sea Sled - Inverted Vee

[ClarkT]

I know this hull shape has been around for years, but I wonder if anyone knows of any published research on this hull form. Or, lacking that, anyone care to talk about their experience with dynamic instability of this hull form, and how it might be improved?

[duluthboats]

Read all posts from badges65 and check his site. That would be a good start.

http://invertedvboats.20m.com/

Gary :D

[ClarkT]

Gary, thanks for the link. It's a start, but Don really does a great job hyping the Inverted Vee without acknowledging its weaknesses. I've found in model tests that the inverted vee hull form is stable at level heel, but also quite stable at a large heel angle. I've heard of similar problems at full scale. I wonder what is done to solve it, and what are it's causes.

[duluthboats]

“I've found in model tests that the inverted vee hull form is stable at level heel, but also quite stable at a large heel angle.”

I’ll assume you intended to say unstable. I think I would agree, but isn’t that also the case for other narrow cats. I have no experience but I can envision it tripping over that sharp edge in the right conditions.

Gary :D

[ClarkT]

"I’ll assume you intended to say unstable."

No...it is stable and tracks straight at 30 degrees of heel. Then a little helm or a wave knocks it, and it swings upright and tracks level until something else sets it off and it becomes stable heeled again.

[trouty]

http://www.breammaster.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4775

This thread about an alloy invetered V being built downunder.

Both Don and I have some input to the thread along with the civil engineer building it.

I'm of the opinion fitting a hysucat style foil - and canting twin outboards to vector the thrust to make it heel into a corner will make a different boat out of it. I also think the thrust vectoring will take the heeling tendency mentioned above out of it while travelling in a straight line,

Interesting to hear what others think about that idea!

Cheers!

[gonzo]

The US Navy tested them in the 40's and then again in the late 70's. They found that the speed to HP compares to a hydrofoil with more stability and seakeeping abilities.

[Researcher]

The following is a incomplete list of patents that were taken out by Hickman. Listing is US patent followed by the same or equivalent

patent as taken out in another country - shown in brackets (). US=USA, CA=Canada, AT=Austria, DE=Germany, GB=UK(GreatBritian), FR=France.


US1044176 ( AT64415, CA159692 )
US1204355 ( AT93970, DE385609, GB19153951 )
US1553160 ( CA275010, GB240470 )
US1553161 ( CA275011, DE478369, FR603499 )
US1620349 ( CA271328 )
US1621839 ( CA271329 )
US1644725 ( CA271324, GB207775 )
US1670622 ( CA271325, GB209700 )
US1670623 ( CA271327 )
US1681342 ( CA271326, GB209699 )
US2515005

All the above, except CA159692, are available for free from the following websites:

Canadian Patents Office:
http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/srch_adv-e.html

US Patents Office:
http://www.uspto.gov/patft/

European Patents Office:
http://ep.espacenet.com/

German Patents Office:
http://www.depatisnet.de/

UK Patents Office:
http://gb.espacenet.com/

The most interesting hull is shown in US2515005 where Hickman shows how he alleviated the majority of the disadvantages of sea sleds.

[Researcher]

A plan for an inverted v hull sailboat called "Sea Mite" was published in "Science and Mechanics" and "Boat Builder Handbook" as Craft Print Project No.324. This appears to be based on Hickman's sea sled design.

It is downloadable from:
http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/SeaMite

[Researcher]

Correcting a mistake:

Patent CA159692 is same as US1204355 not as per previous post.

[Rik van Hemmen]

I was involved in the design of a modern version of the sea sled.

These designs were developed in connecticut in 1987, 1988.

I had particular experience with a 28 footer.

This was a recreation of one of hickman's later designs that uses the exterior chines.

When looking at the transom, you would see an outboard chine about 12 inches wide with a deadrise angle of a few degrees at the transom, gradually increasing going forward, a vertical step like a spraystrake and a flat centerline bottom about 6 feet wide.

The boat ran with twin 150 yamaha outboards and was very fast and accelerated like a scared cat.

We also had one with a single mercruiser, but I don't recall running that boat.

We never had any running problems, and the boat controlled well. It was a surprisingly good searide, but not straight into waves. Never had control problems going down wind (no dutch roll) The one problem was porpoising at high speeds (around 50 mph), but when we fitted a trim tab at the flat part of the transom the porpoising disappeared.

They were impressive boats and in certain applications might be the perfect hull shape. For a planing boat they had great weight carrying capacity and low wake. In New York they run planing hull passenger ferries, and I have often thought that a seasled hull would be much better in that application.

[erichise]

I know this hull shape has been around for years, but I wonder if anyone knows of any published research on this hull form. Or, lacking that, anyone care to talk about their experience with dynamic instability of this hull form, and how it might be improved?

-====================================================

I recently bought from auction a 1920's Hickman SeaSled double cockpit; barrelback racer. It is in remarkable original seaworthy condition. What type of hickman do you have? mine is 22' and designed to move @40mph while drawing 1 ft of water. I have several pictures available. I too am looking to get info on the design.

[erichise]

I recently purchased a 1920s Hickman SeaSled in remarkable original seaworthy condition. The hull is inverted VEE; with step down hull design. The boat is fitted with 2 large rudders, and one 24" tri blade prop. I can not stress the original condition. In fact, it appears to have the original factory varnish and paint scheme. The boat was owned by a local Hickman boat dealer from the 1920's, and was in storage since 1948. Please contact me if anyone has imput . Rgds, Eric Hise....Genoa, Ohio 43430

[SeaDrive]

Phil Bolger published comments about the Hickman types in a recent issue of Messing About in Boats. His view, summarized, is that you can get a better boat using other shapes.

[Guest]

Phil Bolger published comments about the Hickman types in a recent issue of Messing About in Boats. His view, summarized, is that you can get a better boat using other shapes.

Since I am not a subscriber to MAIB, I have been unable to read Phil Bolger's column regarding his comments about sea sleds.

Would you be so kind as to summarize for us nonreaders of MAIB what uses the sea sled hull shape could be used for, not forgetting there appear to be three hull shape variations - a) inverted-v all the way to the transom (1910s onward), b) flat at the transom (1920s onward), and c) flat at the transom with stepped outboard chines (1940s onward).

[SeaDrive]

Since I am not a subscriber to MAIB, I have been unable to read Phil Bolger's column regarding his comments about sea sleds.

Would you be so kind as to summarize for us nonreaders of MAIB what uses the sea sled hull shape could be used for, not forgetting there appear to be three hull shape variations - a) inverted-v all the way to the transom (1910s onward), b) flat at the transom (1920s onward), and c) flat at the transom with stepped outboard chines (1940s onward).

Bolger has written admiringly about Hickman and has based several designs on Hickman's ideas for flat-bottomed, high speed boats (1914 vintage), but he feels that the inverted v was a dead end.

There was a major article about Hickman in Woodenboat some years back.

[jay morgan]

I know this hull shape has been around for years, but I wonder if anyone knows of any published research on this hull form. Or, lacking that, anyone care to talk about their experience with dynamic instability of this hull form, and how it might be improved?

I would love to find one of these boats. I actually live about 5 miles from where they were built. How did your project come out ? Was there a motor in the boat when you found her ?

[wojtek86]

I have been reading about this boat design and I am wondering. What happened to these boats. It seemed that they were the best design, fastest, good in rough water, better carrying capacities. Why did they disappear from the market???

[jay morgan]

Good Question

[wojtek86]

Do you guys think a brand new, redesigned, sea sled center console fishing boat would have success in today's market?

[u4ea32]

What market?

Can anyone point out a paper that documents experiments on Sea Sled designs, to get some data rather than the self serving hype of the promoters?

It seems like is must not work, otherwise they would be pervasive. The design has been around long enough!

[u4ea32]

After reading a bit, maybe these do have merit!

[Tad]

Do you guys think a brand new, redesigned, sea sled center console fishing boat would have success in today's market?

Boston Whaler sells them every day......horrible boats that inspire confidence in newbies due to barge-like stability characteristics....

[u4ea32]

Tad, after more reading, I concur with you.

[wojtek86]

Boston Whaler does not sell any current models that incorporate the sea sled hull.

[wojtek86]

Boston Whaler sells them every day......horrible boats that inspire confidence in newbies due to barge-like stability characteristics....


What makes you think that it's a "horrible" design?

[Tad]

Boston Whaler does not sell any current models that incorporate the sea sled hull.

You are right...I stand corrected...;)

Boston Whaler has given up on their original sea sled and moved to a typical vee bottom....I wonder why :confused:

[Tad]

What makes you think that it's a "horrible" design?

I've been out in one........

[matt H.]

what kind of wake does the sled make ?

a theory of one big wake would be better than two medium wakes .
would be good for some?

why anyone would want one 3-4 foot wake is beyond me .

hypo card - from omni

a good funnerall makes for a good wake ...

[wojtek86]

I've been out in one........

And what makes you think its a horrible design?

[tom28571]

Tad,

As I understood it, Boston Whaler came up with the cathedral type hull to avoid Hickman's lawyers with infringement suits. I think it is a step up from the flat bottom of our local Carolina Skiffs. Like all such boats, it tries to follow the surface of the water, which is fine is the water is not too rough. In rough water it does tend be tough on the human occupants. My experience is limited to Whalers and Whaler lookalikes and have never been in a real Sea Sled or IVB.

[Tad]

The Hickman Sea Sled and the Boston Whaler

When Albert Hickman launched the first Sea Sled in about 1913, she was revolutionary. A lightweight box which flew across the top of the water using an (also revolutionary) surface piercing propeller. Compared to the narrow and heavy boats of the day, the “sled” was stunningly fast. To be sure the box shape and flattish bottom would pound itself to pieces in a sea, and it was not pretty, but speed made up for those shortcomings in many minds.

Hickman was to spend the rest of his life, until 1957, promoting his Sea Sled as the best form available for high speed in any conditions. But the boats never really quite made it to popularity, perhaps it was the look (that of a box), or perhaps it was the strident self-promotion by Hickman, most likely it was the drawbacks of the Sea Sleds themselves. There were numerous big contracts for various governments that just never came to pass.

In October of 1955 another big opportunity for Hickman was imminent. He reached a tentative agreement with the Fisher-Pierce Company to produce small outboard powerboats using their fiberglass encapsulated foam construction method. The boats were to be called Sea Sleds. But something went wrong between the parties and this project was abandoned. Fisher was friends with Ray Hunt and encouraged him to come up with something close they could build. Hunt was a researcher, he built a prototype box and they started modifying it. The central hull was added, and then got bigger. Hunt’s official story was that this was to “eliminate cavitation”. This heavily modified box became the plug for the Boston Whaler which was introduced in 1958. Hickman died in 1957.

The original Boston Whaler is heavy and hard riding, and somewhat un-controllable down wind in a sea. But no one could deny they are tough and stable at low angles of heel. Meanwhile hull forms by-passed the Sea Sled in favor of the prettier deep-vee, coincidently also popularized by the designs of Ray Hunt. Today Boston Whaler retains a slight boxy nod to it’s Hickman ancestor, but utilizes the vee bottom for it’s planing surface

[girvin]

There is a guy here by the name lawson the did his take on one for his dad. Built out of aluminum about 22 feet with 2 70 hp outboards. The thing is a beast i have seen it with panels of ply piled a couple feet high with 4 guys on it and some other lumber go through 4 ft chop like it was nothing. I have seen them offshore with it on some goos siezed days and it seemed to do pretty good but you deffinetly have to throttle back when having a following sea. But for utility and the heavy chop we get here on the protected or semi protected 4-6 ft it plows through that stuff without slamming. I would rather have my deep v off shore when its 20ft and blowing. Its a neat boat though he lives on a island so its his car.

[girvin]

Ohh an TAD we use the old style boxy whalers and I just noticed they do look a little like the sea sled. We have a new outrage, it has a more modern look to it. I have had that boat in some nasty stuff and am very impressed with it. The old ones we have are still very sea worthy but a wet ride in a crosswind. I have noticed that the newer design lets me go a little faster with out pounding. Today was 6-8 ft and 15knts with 20 here and there and I was running offshore at 25 knts and got up to 27 without a single pound but it was raining and I get dirty looks after a certain speed. The rain starts to hurt after 25. In the old boxier hull I would be doing 22 maybe 23.

[ClarkT]

No, the sea sled concept is far from dead. Check out the latest from M-Ship. They have added their own marketing a spin to the concept, but it looks a whole lot like a sea-sled to me.

http://www.mshipco.com/

[wojtek86]

We have just finished building a new redesigned sea sled. It is 28ft long. The boat has already been in the water three times. It was finished about 3 weeks ago and is still being tested.

[Mr Efficiency]

I know this hull shape has been around for years, but I wonder if anyone knows of any published research on this hull form. Or, lacking that, anyone care to talk about their experience with dynamic instability of this hull form, and how it might be improved?

All boats of this kind do tend to dynamic instability, including fast power cats, the factors that exacerbate it are light weight, high speed, and angle of approach to a wave train. Higher centre of gravity never helps make anything more stable, but these boats typically have higher COG anyhow. A lightweight cat driven hard and fast, with the seas substantially on the beam can flip as the rapid rotation generated by the windward sponson may not countered in time by the leeward side being similarly lifted as the wave passes. I would also think the sea sled idea being around for an eternity but not finding much marketplace acceptance tells the story, intuitively it is hard to see how they could ride smoothly into a steep chop, the annihilation of such waves is going to give a decent thump. The entrapped water has nowhere to go but downward.......

[T-Topless]

We have just finished building a new redesigned sea sled. It is 28ft long. The boat has already been in the water three times. It was finished about 3 weeks ago and is still being tested.

Have any pictures? The Sea Sled concept is still very interesting from a speed, efficiency and surface drive perspective.

My father was an aeronautial engineer who went to U of Michigan just as WW-II broke out. Uof Mich has a great naval engineering school, and he became interested in that as well. We designed and built dozens of model boats together back in the 70's, and he always said that the tank testing of Michigan showed the most efficient, fastest design to be a flat board ... The Sea Sled optimized that by pushing some air under the hull.

[cthippo]

So basically it acts like a primitive surface effect design?

Everyone has played with that concept, but AFAIK only the Russians have built production hardware with their Bora (or dergatch) class corvettes